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Taalib-e-'Ilm
01-08-2005, 11:56 AM
Assalamualaykum Brothers and Sisters once again,

THis time i would like to highlight on the fact that the world wasnt created by some "BANG" or sum kind of chemical crap.... which doesnt make sense at alll!!!! Science says that the BIG BANG occured because of two chemicals-im not sure which onez though but my point is that how did the chemicals gets there? Someone must have made the chemicals? and by the way ISLAM SAYS THAT THEIR WAS NO BIG BANG!!!!!!!!!

One little story:
A Shaykh (Im not sure if it was Shaykh Hamza Yusuf) once was talking with this guy...who didn't believe in God and all he believed was in nature and humans. So the guy who i believe was an atheist (NO OFFENCE) invited this Muslim Scholar Shaykh Hamza Yusuf to a debate about this topic of how the world was created. So Shaikh said that come on this day, meet me at this place and at this time.
THe atheist guy got their b4 time, but shaikh wasn't their yet for the debate. So the guy got a bit mad because it was like an hour passed from the time which Shaikh fixed. After some time Shaikh arrived, and the guy told shaikh like everyone else that wouldv'e done... that dont u have any sense of how precious time is... and SHaikh explained that it wasnt my fault i got here late. You wont believe wot had happened on my way to this debate.
THe guy asked "Wot Happened?"Shaikh said that "the bridge which connected that part of the town and this part of the town was broken. So i went down near the shore to see if their were any boats their... but it was really quite and hardly saw anyone. All of a sudden i heard sum funny noises from behind me, and i looked back and saw that a tree is cutting it's own branches and saw that the wood which dropped one after the other was forming a sort of a shape, and then I saw that the tree had made a boat for me to sail on and the amazing bit is that as soon as i sat in the boat it started rowing itself till i got to this part of the town."
The Guy then said "I dont believe you, how can that be?"
THe Shaikh then said: "Well you know wot? I just told u that a small thing like one single tree created a boat for me but u believe that the whole world was created by itself- now u tell me how can that be possible?"!!!!!!!!!!!![/ :applaud:[/B]
;) ;) ;)
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WomanOfJihad
01-08-2005, 02:06 PM
:thumbs_up Now thats an interestin One ..
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Uthman
01-08-2005, 03:56 PM
That;s very interesting brother :thumbs_up but how do you explain this verse from our holy Qur'an?:

In Surah AL-ANBIYA chapter number 21 verse number 30

30. Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?


Doesn't this imply the big bang? I've heard that story before. I agree that the world wasn't created by itself but Allah (SWT) made the big bang happen and thus the universe was created.

Hey, don't sweat I was just pointing that out. Perhaps I'm wrong anyway and I interpreted the verse in the wrong way.

Indeed Allah (SWT) knows best. ;)


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root
01-08-2005, 04:54 PM
Science says that the BIG BANG occured because of two chemicals
Not true, All the matter in the universe is made up of two chemical compounds hydrogen and helium. And it is suspected that this came as a result of the big bang (Not Proven). We do not yet know what caused the big bang.

and by the way ISLAM SAYS THAT THEIR WAS NO BIG BANG!!!!!!!!!
Then Islam is wrong. Or, was reffering to a different "Big Bang". It is a proven fact that the big bang occured (indeed it's rewarding find won the two scientists who discovered it the Nobel Peace Prize). Science had long worked on the equation E=Mc Square. It was taken that Energy could create matter and visa versa. Science predicted to support this Matter a big bang must have occured. World religions said "No", not just Islam. After all you yourself are made up of millions of atoms, yet if we took just a small handfull and "destroyed" them, a nuclear explosion would occur. If you account for the ammount of matter in the universe, you, mankind, tables, Planets, TV, Dirt, rain, Stars everything you can touch and feel. It is all made up of the same atoms. That is the same matter. So, if a few atoms can create a nuclear explosion the energy required to make the matter in the universe must be phenominally beyond our understanding. This said, you would hear the echoes of such a massive explosion. And we can both hear it and see it.

A Shaykh (Im not sure if it was Shaykh Hamza Yusuf) once was talking with this guy...who didn't believe in God and all he believed was in nature and humans. So the guy who i believe was an atheist (NO OFFENCE) invited this Muslim Scholar Shaykh Hamza Yusuf to a debate about this topic of how the world was created.
Calling someone an Atheist is not offensive, unless he is a religous person then I would agree.

and this part of the town was broken. So i went down near the shore to see if their were any boats their... but it was really quite and hardly saw anyone. All of a sudden i heard sum funny noises from behind me, and i looked back and saw that a tree is cutting it's own branches and saw that the wood which dropped one after the other was forming a sort of a shape, and then I saw that the tree had made a boat for me to sail on and the amazing bit is that as soon as i sat in the boat it started rowing itself till i got to this part of the town."
The Guy then said "I dont believe you, how can that be?"
THe Shaikh then said: "Well you know wot? I just told u that a small thing like one single tree created a boat for me but u believe that the whole world was created by itself- now u tell me how can that be possible?"!!!!!!!!!!!![/
now u tell me how can that be possible?"!!!!!!!!!!!![/
Because Shaikh was claiming to have been 1 hour late. This is not enough time for the evolutionary process. Additionally, it is impossible to evolve from a tree to a boat, since a boat is not a living organism in it's own right. An interesting note to add, is that he probably would have produced 2 or 3 mutated cells, a living organism in it's own right. If this living cell succesfully reproduces itself and continues to reproduce, we would call this cancer. Similarly, a singel celled "bacterium" every once in a while creates a "mutation", again, some mutations go on to become recognised as a bacterium given time to continue reproducing every 20 minutes, 2, 4, 8, 16, 24, 48, etc etc. Within a few weeks we are talking a phenominal ammount, but still every 20 minutes the figure will double. Who "created" this new bacterium? This is not a question, please don't try to answer it.
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kadafi
01-08-2005, 06:34 PM
Peace!

Despite the fact that the Qu'ran is not an book of science but a book of guidance, it still contains some scientific realities and it encourages us to reflect on them if we doubt the Word of Allah SWT.

One of these scientific signs is the creation of the Heavens & earth.

"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.” (21:30)

This is also known as the Big Bang model. So brother Taalib-e-'Ilm, -- sayin' that the Qu'ran rejects the Big Bang theory is incorrect.

It's interestin' that root accepts the Big Bang theory since the Big Bang theory is more bendin' towards the existence of God than old concept of materialist philosophy, "it's created from non-existence".

The renowned atheist philosopher Antony Flew said:
Notoriously, confession is good for the soul. I will, therefore, begin by confessing that the Stratonician atheist has to be embarrassed by the contemporary cosmological consensus. For it seems that the cosmologists are providing a scientific proof of what St. Thomas contended could not be proved philosophically; namely, that the universe had a beginning. So long as the universe can be comfortably thought of as being not only without end but also without beginning, it remains easy to urge that its brute existence, and whatever are found to be its most fundamental features, should be accepted as the explanatory ultimates. Although I believe that it remains still correct, it certainly is neither easy nor comfortable to maintain this position in the face of the Big Bang story


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Taalib-e-'Ilm
01-08-2005, 07:30 PM
:sl: just to verify abt the BIG BANG THING I SAID COZ BEFORE I WROTE IT I ASKED AN AALIM CLASS STUDENT WHO LEARNT IT FROM HIS USTADH THAT BIG BANG WAS HARAAM-- or i think he probably meant that to believe that it all happened by itself is haraam-- we all make mistakes ;)
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Uthman
01-08-2005, 08:22 PM
No probs Taalib-e-ilm brother. :)

Originally Posted by kadafi
One of these scientific signs is the creation of the Heavens & earth.

"Haven't the unbelievers seen that the heavens and the earth were joined together (in one singularity), then we clove both of them asunder.” (21:30)

This is also known as the Big Bang model. So brother Taalib-e-'Ilm, -- sayin' that the Qu'ran rejects the Big Bang theory is incorrect.
*Ahem* http://www.load-islam.com/forums/sho...67&postcount=3
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Khaldun
01-08-2005, 09:27 PM
:sl:

Nice story brother Taalib Ilm, I understand what you mean know, mashAllah keep them intresting topics comin ;)
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kadafi
01-08-2005, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
No probs Taalib-e-ilm brother. :)


*Ahem* http://www.load-islam.com/forums/sho...67&postcount=3
:sl:!

Didn't saw your post, just looked at the last post :-\
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root
01-09-2005, 02:03 PM
It's interestin' that root accepts the Big Bang theory since the Big Bang theory is more bendin' towards the existence of God than old concept of materialist philosophy, "it's created from non-existence".
It's interestin' that root accepts the Big Bang theory
Sorry, I accept the big bang. Not the theory of a Big Bang! to which their are a few, including creation. I only subcribe to the fact that we know their was a "Big Bang", a loud noise!!!

Why is it we expect the "end" of the universe to be a single point! How has it come to be. many moons ago we thought their was only 1 planet, their's an infinate number. Then one Sun, same thing Infinate, 1 Solar System, 1 Galaxy billions upon billions of em. Everytime we predict one unique expectation within the universe we find infinate numbers. So who's to say we don't live in 1 universe amongst infinate numbers of universes, Maybe our universe is like a bubble in bathtub of soapy water, bubble a universe. open\Close\multi\ universes are all "theory" one subscribes to a theory as the most probable. Until Science proves it as a fact, such as the big bang. (In that all we know their was a big noise and it comes from a central point)!

The renowned atheist philosopher Antony Flew said:
Atheism is not a club! It is a word to describe a person who One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. As to why that is, Allah as a word: Muslim name for the one and only God. We simply don't subscribe to your theory of God. Not that in the end we will not find a creator, it is still a probabilty. A long shot, but still possible. Like death, The atoms of my body cannot be destroyed, they will turn to dust withn the planet . My DNA lives on (for now). Only a few billion years from now, if man has survived as a species, the planet will be boiled up and my atoms may well head off back into the universe from where my atoms came from in the first place. And no doubt Muslim's will be re-united with loved ones. (I presume).
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Uthman
01-09-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by kadafi
:sl:!

Didn't saw your post, just looked at the last post :-\
No probs! I recently learned that admins can do what they want anyway. :p
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kadafi
01-09-2005, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by root
Sorry, I accept the big bang. Not the theory of a Big Bang! to which their are a few, including creation. I only subcribe to the fact that we know their was a "Big Bang", a loud noise!!!
Peace,

So accordin' to you; you only acknowledge the fact that there was a 'big crunch' but do not speculate the origin of that bang?


Why is it we expect the "end" of the universe to be a single point! How has it come to be. many moons ago we thought their was only 1 planet, their's an infinate number. Then one Sun, same thing Infinate, 1 Solar System, 1 Galaxy billions upon billions of em. Everytime we predict one unique expectation within the universe we find infinate numbers. So who's to say we don't live in 1 universe amongst infinate numbers of universes, Maybe our universe is like a bubble in bathtub of soapy water, bubble a universe. open\Close\multi\ universes are all "theory" one subscribes to a theory as the most probable.
There is not even one scientific evice that supports the multiverse theory. It's only a scenario cast upon the waters. Our universe contains a large amount of evidence in favour intelligent design which is the most plausible theory thus far. More sensible than the pseudo-science "Evolution".


Until Science proves it as a fact, such as the big bang. (In that all we know their was a big noise and it comes from a central point)!
Even though you do not believe in the elobrated version of the Big Bang theory, it's however, the most acceptable theory
today about the creation of the universe. And since you professed to be a man of science, I cannot see the logic why you reject it?


Atheism is not a club! It is a word to describe a person who One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. As to why that is, Allah as a word: Muslim name for the one and only God. We simply don't subscribe to your theory of God. Not that in the end we will not find a creator, it is still a probabilty. A long shot, but still possible. Like death, The atoms of my body cannot be destroyed, they will turn to dust withn the planet . My DNA lives on (for now). Only a few billion years from now, if man has survived as a species, the planet will be boiled up and my atoms may well head off back into the universe from where my atoms came from in the first place. And no doubt Muslim's will be re-united with loved ones. (I presume).
Nor did I claim to be. From my observation, the vast majority of atheists tend to believe in any theory that contradicts the existence of God (i.e. evolution, multiverse etc). I think I've to agree with the famous french philosopher named Francis Bacon who siad:
"a little knowledge of science makes you an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes you a believer in God."
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root
01-10-2005, 09:28 AM
So accordin' to you; you only acknowledge the fact that there was a 'big crunch' but do not speculate the origin of that bang
?

No not according to me, but Scientific proof

Of course I speculate upon theory, I just don't call theory fact....

The theory of creationism is that you are already here, thus proof you was created - Sorry, I don't buy this as scientific fact you are wrong to assume that intelligent design is in anyway accepted as fact, for it is not. We just don't know. Even more so Science knows something is wrong, in fact it's predicting the discovery of "Dark Matter" which has every potential in discovering some home truths, some of which we don't like on both sides.

Our universe contains a large amount of evidence in favour intelligent design
Utter nonsense, you have no more evidence to support intelligent design, than multiverse theories. You have no or little knowledge upon dark matters effects and laws within the universe.

Even though you do not believe in the elobrated version of the Big Bang theory, it's however, the most acceptable theory
today about the creation of the universe. And since you professed to be a man of science, I cannot see the logic why you reject it?
Oh, I beleive a few theories and all as plausable as the next including creationism. You just won't find me quoting theory as fact. Crationism is a science by which you try to prove your theory by disproving rival theories. I don't consider this science....... And a hypthosis upon theory is not factual today, tomorrow or next year. I personally beleive that when Science discovers it's predicted find of dark matter, and since it predicts it this will change and disprove a lot of theories out their.
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kadafi
01-10-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by root
?

No not according to me, but Scientific proof

Of course I speculate upon theory, I just don't call theory fact....

The theory of creationism is that you are already here, thus proof you was created - Sorry, I don't buy this as scientific fact
This is simply incorrect and demonstrates your inadequate knowledge regardin' Islamic creatonism. Don't confuse Biblical creatonism with the Islamic creatonism.

Dr. Maurice Bucaille has covered and compared the Biblical creatonism and the Islamic creatonism with Science. And you might be suprised with the findings.

You can read his book at http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...QS/default.htm

And I want you to state your perspective.

you are wrong to assume that intelligent design is in anyway accepted as fact, for it is not. We just don't know. Even more so Science knows something is wrong, in fact it's predicting the discovery of "Dark Matter" which has every potential in discovering some home truths, some of which we don't like on both sides.
Nor did I claim that ID was accepted as a fact. I specifically stated "theory" that is supported with a vast amount of scientific evidence.

Fact remains that ID is the most logical theory of the phenomena in nature and that God has created all living things.

on a site note, do you believe in the pseudo-science named Evolution?

Utter nonsense, you have no more evidence to support intelligent design, than multiverse theories. You have no or little knowledge upon dark matters effects and laws within the universe.
Actually, the multiverse theory is not even based on one scientific evidence let alone a few. It's merely an another speculation brought forth by those who proclaim that this universe was created by "chance".

Let's cite a few examples of that support the ID theory:

"Biologists' investigation of DNA has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce [life], that intelligence must have been involved"

http://washingtontimes.com/national/...3212-2782r.htm

Based on his calculations, Led Adleman of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has stated that one gram of DNA can store as much information as a trillion compact discs. Gene Myers, a scientist employed on the Human Genome Project, has said the following in the face of the miraculous arrangements he witnessed:
"What really astounds me is the architecture of life… The system is extremely complex. It's like it was designed… There's a huge intelligence there."

http://www.nature.com/nsu/030421/030421-6.html

Modern science has revealed the existence of an "intelligence pervading the universe,

Gerald Hoeder writes in "The Hidden Face of God" :

"A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom."

Harun Yahya writes:
"Scientific research into both the functioning of the cell and the subatomic particles of matter has revealed this fact in an indisputable manner: Life and the universe were brought into being from nothing by the will of an entity possessed of a superior mind and wisdom. There is no doubt that the possessor of that knowledge and mind that pervade the universe at all levels is Almighty Allah. Allah reveals this truth in the Qur'an:"

Both East and West belong to Allah, so wherever you turn, the Face of Allah is there. Allah is All-Encompassing, All-Knowing." (Qur'an, 2:115)


Peace
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root
01-10-2005, 05:50 PM
This is simply incorrect and demonstrates your inadequate knowledge regardin' Islamic creatonism.

No, you cannot say that. True, I hold a different opinion. But please don't tell me my opinion on this is a lack of knowledge regards Islamic creationism.

I dislike the notion of "Intelligent design" being so complex how could it evolve. It's like debating the "Fire cracking beatle". Complexity is not a supporting arguement for scientific facts.

Fact remains that ID is the most logical theory of the phenomena in nature and that God has created all living things.
it was once said that the most logical theory was that life could not exist without oxygen or sunlight. Wrong then, and in the same context of creationism can be just as wrong. I said this before, please don't ask me to swallow scientific theory as scientific fact. It's dangerous. The ONLY credible evidence creationists have is that they exist, the only proof they bring to the table is scientific fact's proving other theories (fire-cracking beatle, Hybrid Species, etc etc.

Let's cite a few examples of that support the ID theory:

"Biologists' investigation of DNA has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce [life], that intelligence must have been involved"

http://washingtontimes.com/national...13212-2782r.htm

Based on his calculations, Led Adleman of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has stated that one gram of DNA can store as much information as a trillion compact discs. Gene Myers, a scientist employed on the Human Genome Project, has said the following in the face of the miraculous arrangements he witnessed:
"What really astounds me is the architecture of life… The system is extremely complex. It's like it was designed… There's a huge intelligence there."
Again, your using the "complexity" arguement. When are you going to bring some facts......

A single consciousness, a universal wisdom, pervades the universe. The discoveries of science, those that search the quantum nature of subatomic matter, have moved us to the brink of a startling realization: all existence is the expression of this wisdom. In the laboratories we experience it as information that first physically articulated as energy and then condensed into the form of matter. Every particle, every being, from atom to human, appears to represent a level of information, of wisdom."

Harun Yahya writes:
"Scientific research into both the functioning of the cell and the subatomic particles of matter has revealed this fact in an indisputable manner: Life and the universe were brought into being from nothing by the will of an entity possessed of a superior mind and wisdom. There is no doubt that the possessor of that knowledge and mind that pervade the universe at all levels is Almighty Allah. Allah reveals this truth in the Qur'an:"

Both East and West belong to Allah, so wherever you turn, the Face of Allah is there. Allah is All-Encompassing, All-Knowing." (Qur'an, 2:115)
Let's step aside from your complex words. What this "Muslim Scientist"!! was actually talking about, is the means by which atoms form very complex structures. It is this complex structure of atoms that they are talking about. And again, he is drawing a theory based on "Complexity", this debate of complexity cannot be stated as a fact at this time. Though the subject matter is complex, you can draw a parallel with the "Watchmakers" watch being so complex that it required a creator. IT DOES NOT PROVE CREATIONISM at this point.

All this supposadly "Evidence" does not take into consideration for 1 second "dark matter" and Scientist's and religion would do well to consider this point.

The difference between me and you is that I acknowledge creationism as still a possibility. Do you accept evolution as being possible.

may I ask you a few questions?

How old is this planet?
How long has man been on this planet?
Do you beleive Dinasaurs existed?
Do you see it possble that life was brought to this planet by comets\meteorite?

Just out of interest so we may attempt to measure the divide between our theories?

Peace.......
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kadafi
01-10-2005, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by root

All this supposadly "Evidence" does not take into consideration for 1 second "dark matter" and Scientist's and religion would do well to consider this point.

The difference between me and you is that I acknowledge creationism as still a possibility. Do you accept evolution as being possible.
Either you deliberately fail to reflect on what I said or you do not want to consider what I stated by lookin' at the references (i.e. Qu'ran, Bible and science book). Unfortunaley, this is also the same method used in the previous thread.

For the sake of argumentation, let's assume that the "dark matter" is considerd as a fact and [exists]. The physicists argue that in the "dark matter", there is a another universe that has its own rules of physics that would appear bizare to us. And that there are other civilizations dwelling in that universe that are maybe similiar to mankind. Strangely enough, this could be talking about the Jinns since they were created before mankind (bear in mind that the [dark matter] theory suggests that it came in to existence beforeo ur own matter)

In addition, the "dark matter" theory suggests that this universe will ultimately collapse because of the gravitational effect caused by the presence of this extra mass. Hmm, interestin' -- accordin' to "dark matter", the universe will someday end!

On that day We shall roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books. As We originated the first creation, so We shall bring it forth again. It is a promise (binding) upon Us. Truly We shall fulfill it (as We promised it). (21:104)

How old is this planet?
The theory of general relativity explains that time passes slower at God's Throne than on Earth.

Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the throne [of authority]: He draweth the night as a veil o’er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, [all] governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds! (Al-A`raf 7:54)

Say: “Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of [all] the worlds.” He set on the [earth] mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days, in accordance with [the needs of] those who seek [sustenance]. Moreover, He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been [as] smoke: He said to it and to the earth: “Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly.” They said: “We do come [together], in willing obedience.” So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and [provided it] with guard. Such is the decree of [Him] the Exalted in might, Full of knowledge. (Fussilat 41:9-12)

Interestin', the universe is 13.5 billions old (6 days passed), this places the age of Earth at one third the age of the universe (2 days)

13.5/3 = 4.5

6 days = 13.5 bil
2 days = 4.5 bil

How long has man been on this planet?
Not known, the oldest human skeleton found is give or take 30,000 years old. Not includin' the alleged lucy skeleton who appeared to be a extinct ape specie.


Do you beleive Dinasaurs existed?
Offcourse I do --

Do you see it possble that life was brought to this planet by comets\meteorite?
Nope, another debunked myth perpetuated by the evolutionists.

I do have one favour to ask you and that is to read this book located at http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/B...QS/default.htm in order to extend this discussion in to fruitful one.

Peace
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aamirsaab
01-10-2005, 08:00 PM
now this discussion is getting really juicy. cant w8 to see how this one turns out.

keep up the good posts kadafi and root
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root
01-10-2005, 08:42 PM
Either you deliberately fail to reflect on what I said or you do not want to consider what I stated by lookin' at the references (i.e. Qu'ran, Bible and science book). Unfortunaley, this is also the same method used in the previous thread.
See, I dislike your comments and am desperate to find some middle ground. You say to me:

For the sake of argumentation, let's assume that the "dark matter" is considerd as a fact and [exists]. The physicists argue that in the "dark matter", there is a another universe that has its own rules of physics that would appear bizare to us. And that there are other civilizations dwelling in that universe that are maybe similiar to mankind.
I am sorry, as far as the understanding of "dark matter" goes, I don't agree with your theory of what "dark matter" is. We have to agree on this before we can move forward. This is a bit of a double edged sword, because nobody can prove (yet) the existence of "dark matter". However, And as much as I don't want to do your scientific research for you, we have to agree on some points. I am grateful that you are prepared to for a short time at least accept that dark matter exists. But we need to agree if this is in small particle form (wimps) or large (macho). Or for the sake of argument, allow us to draw on both. You need to let me know if you for a short time are prepared to accept WIMPS, MACHOS or both.

Another issue that I want us to agree on, is the visible origins of the universe in that I want you to accept as a Scientific fact (beyond religous and Scientific differences) that we can see our past, albeit a universe created past for I dont mind which one you use at this current time and place. If you agree that we can indeed see back about 75% of the way back from where the mass is originating, and see the universe and it's matter at various stages of creation. And let's also agree that the "big Bang" can be heard but not seen, since this is the case.

I, in return I will go read this in depth pioneer website that you have linked.

Nope, another debunked myth perpetuated by the evolutionists.
My final comment: Your above reply to my question could life be brought to this planet on the back of a meteor\comet. May I ask why you changed my theory to a myth, and can I ask Scientifically why you dont think it is possible for life to travel around the universe, smashing into planets, amongst other things! What interest me about your answer is that I wonder if you will simply reject it on the basis of Creationist view faith or both because you can't rule it out scientifically.

Peace..........

[b]Before going any deeper into this subject I would like to make a couple of points that I beleive are issues. Firstly, I don't represent anyone or any particular belief. I have my own very personal beleif that is outside the boundaries of religion. I am not here to convert you or in anyway disprove creationism, because even I myself do not rule it out. I really dont want to be treated in pity, or perceived as a "salesmen" or a test of your faith. I am only here to debate current scietific issues of today. In short the "Facts".
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aamirsaab
01-11-2005, 01:43 PM
i know this is slightly off topic but...

do you u guys believe in the existence of aliens?

for more info on this topic please go to :
http://www.load-islam.com/forums/sho...=1332#post1332
thank you for your time
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Celestial
01-11-2005, 05:09 PM
do you u guys believe in the existence of aliens?
it what you mean by aliens. if you mean those long faced peculiar creatures that you see in blockbuster movies. then no, however there are things that we have no knowledge which is called the knowledge of the unseen. one example that i can remember is the when the Prophet went up the heavens. he was carried by an flying horse with phenomenal speed. he could fly as far as the eye sees in seconds ( so i remember ). existance is not defined by us knowing it, if you we don't know it there doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. e.g. iron was only found the last hundreds of years does this mean it was never there till we found out ?

that what i think it is may Allah forgive me if i said something that is not correct.
:sl:
Reply

kadafi
01-11-2005, 05:50 PM
I am sorry, as far as the understanding of "dark matter" goes, I don't agree with your theory of what "dark matter" is. We have to agree on this before we can move forward. This is a bit of a double edged sword, because nobody can prove (yet) the existence of "dark matter". However, And as much as I don't want to do your scientific research for you, we have to agree on some points. I am grateful that you are prepared to for a short time at least accept that dark matter exists. But we need to agree if this is in small particle form (wimps) or large (macho). Or for the sake of argument, allow us to draw on both. You need to let me know if you for a short time are prepared to accept WIMPS, MACHOS or both.
Peace,

Dark matter itself is still a mystery to scientists. I cannot spot the point to discuss a matter that is not even observable directly. We can endlessly speculate about this matter but let me point out that dark matter just proves the existence of the unseen (creatures) such as angels, soul, jinns etc.

Allah SWT said in surah 39, verse 42:
It is God that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes their souls) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed; Verily therein are Signs for those who reflect.

How on earth does the dark matter concept discredit the existence of God. I'd like to keep this discussion short since I'm currently undertaking exams.

Another issue that I want us to agree on, is the visible origins of the universe in that I want you to accept as a Scientific fact (beyond religous and Scientific differences) that we can see our past, albeit a universe created past for I dont mind which one you use at this current time and place. If you agree that we can indeed see back about 75% of the way back from where the mass is originating, and see the universe and it's matter at various stages of creation. And let's also agree that the "big Bang" can be heard but not seen, since this is the case.
Who said that religion cannot coexist with science :) Aren't we forgettin' that the ancient Muslims were the founders of modern science?

But as for your proposal; I'd be willing to accept it as long as it doesn't lead us to a dead end. Bear in mind that I do not want to speculate on theories that do not offer arguments regarding the existence of the Almighty.

Your above reply to my question could life be brought to this planet on the back of a meteor\comet. May I ask why you changed my theory to a myth, and can I ask Scientifically why you dont think it is possible for life to travel around the universe, smashing into planets, amongst other things! What interest me about your answer is that I wonder if you will simply reject it on the basis of Creationist view faith or both because you can't rule it out scientifically.
In order for it to be possible, it has to be logical. A thesis has to have logical claims before it can be worth arguing for. The frozen microbes,bacteria,viruses etc that originated from crashing comets or asteroids is simply unscientific and another fabricated myth to try to dispel creatonism. Let's assume that it's correct, we still are left with the question -- where did they come from? How did they orginate? And then comes the ussual abiogenesis myth as a reason.

Before going any deeper into this subject I would like to make a couple of points that I beleive are issues. Firstly, I don't represent anyone or any particular belief. I have my own very personal beleif that is outside the boundaries of religion.
Point taken, however, I do not agree with you when you stated "outside the boundaries of religion", this implies that religious people are not allowed to ponder about God's creation. This is simply false and Allah SWT encouraged us in the Qu'ran to ponder about his creation to build a better understanding of the Creator.

"Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).

Peace
Reply

kadafi
01-11-2005, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
i know this is slightly off topic but...

do you u guys believe in the existence of aliens?
:sl:,,

Possible, -- however, I do know for certain that they do not possess intelligence and thought which Allah SWT endowed on mankind and the Jinns.

Allah knows best!
Reply

root
01-11-2005, 08:26 PM
Definately - Indeed the Qur'an actually talks about Allah's "Bridging" which Islam actually supports the theory that it is possible that life exists. I might be talking complete rubbish here, but if Islam accepts their are "bridging" steps and also is open to the idea that life exists beyond the Earth. It can be reasonably argued that Allah created us in more than one stage as the Qur'an states that the universe was created over several stages.

As to it being Intelligent, I "think" the Qur'an suggests it will not be, but don't quote me on that.

So I think not only is it reasonable

The basic process in the formation of the Universe therefore lay in the condensation of material in the primary nebula followed by its division into fragments that originally constituted galactic masses. The latter in their turn split up into stars that provided the sub-product of the process, i.e. the planets. These successive separations left among the groups of principle elements what one might perhaps call 'remains'. Their more scientific name is 'interstellar galactic material'. It has been described in various ways; there are bright nebulae that reflect the light received from other stars and are perhaps composed of 'dusts' or 'smokes', to use the terminology of experts in astrophysics, and then there are the dark nebulae that are less dense, consisting of interstellar material that is even more modest, known for its tendency to interfere with photometric measurements in astronomy. There can be no doubt about the existence of 'bridges' of material between the galaxies themselves. Although these gases may be very rarefied, the fact that they occupy such a colossal space, in view of the great distance separating the galaxies, could make them correspond to a mass possibly greater than the total mass of the galaxies in spite of the low density of the former. A. Boichot considers the presence of these intergalactic masses to be of prime importance which could "considerably alter ideas on the evolution of the Universe."

We must now go back to the basic ideas on the Creation of the Universe that were taken from the Qur'an and look at them in the light of modern scientific data.
And their opions is that it is possible to find life.

The existence of an intermediate creation between 'the Heavens' and 'the Earth' expressed in the Qur'an may be compared to the discovery of those bridges of material present outside organized astronomic systems
One could argue that the Qur'an accepts life beyond the earth, and still retain credibility with the theory of "Bridging"..... that it has claimed in support of "Creationism".
Reply

root
01-11-2005, 08:41 PM
I cannot spot the point to discuss a matter that is not even observable directly. We can endlessly speculate about this matter but let me point out that dark matter just proves the existence of the unseen (creatures) such as angels, soul, jinns etc.
Yes, you could theorise that easily. Though it was not part of my point.

How on earth does the dark matter concept discredit the existence of God. I'd like to keep this discussion short since I'm currently undertaking exams.
I never implied nor stated that my intention was to discredit the existence of Allah, I hear many times in this forum "Misconceptions" of what the west have of Muslim's. I am afraid to say that you too have a Misconception"

Evolutionary science CANNOT discount the theory of creationism. To discuss Science, is not to disprove the theory of "Allah".

You have your exams, I accept this.

Thanks

Root
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
01-11-2005, 09:06 PM
been reading bits and bobs of this thread but it seems theres too much which has already been discussed.
Originally Posted by root
I hear many times in this forum "Misconceptions" of what the west have of Muslim's. I am afraid to say that you too have a Misconception"
well misconception or not this is a fact.........

the existence of athiests was only recent when a group of christians lost faith in "jesus" and thus turned to make theories of their existence.........athiesm now almost seems like an entire new religion of people who belong to no religion but share the same belief of their existance.

their banner is like the muslims shahadah ........ there is no god (sorry, hah reminds me of the matrix where the kid goes, there is no spoon and the spoon bends :D )

but saying there is no god implies there is a god....... just like the spoon in matrix.
Reply

Uthman
01-11-2005, 09:18 PM
Assalama alaikum brother,

Originally Posted by Brother_Mujahid
but saying there is no god implies there is a god....... just like the spoon in matrix.
What do you mean by this? Do you mean saying "there is no god" implies that there actually is a god because you referred to god in your sentence therefore god exists? :applaud: What a mouthful, eh? Don't understand bro. :confused: Please clarify
Reply

Khaldun
01-11-2005, 10:59 PM
:sl:

You manage to loose me there aswell Brother Mujahid....what do u mean?
Reply

root
01-12-2005, 12:13 PM
well misconception or not this is a fact.........
Sorry, I don't accept that. Is it OK for me to beleive every Muslim is a terrorist!"!!!!, of course not. So why are you persisting that every atheist is absolute against proving\disproving the theory of Allah.

It's nut's to suggest it
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
01-12-2005, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by root
Sorry, I don't accept that.
well thats coz ur in denial........ well maybe there were the odd few athiests which did exsist before like the famous darwin-saab
Is it OK for me to beleive every Muslim is a terrorist!"!!!!,
well u know thats not true

but saying there is no god implies there is a god....... just like the spoon in matrix.
i thought the analagy went well, well sort of as i made mention of the marix just before.

anyways what i was trying to say is that say i have a pen, i then hide it. you can't say it doesn't exsist just coz u can't see it. Same goes for Allah.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-13-2005, 09:12 AM
now that was clever

booyah...erm ..sorry
keep the replies coming - keep em clean and keep em mean (hehe)
lets see how far this thread can go.
Reply

root
01-13-2005, 12:47 PM
well thats coz ur in denial........ well maybe there were the odd few athiests which did exsist before like the famous darwin-saab
Yet more misconceptions....

Atheist's fully subscribe to Darwinian theory of evolution

Not true my freind, you see what your trying to do is "Group" atheists into a catagory to which you can discuss on a "them and us basis".
Reply

Umm Yoosuf
01-13-2005, 12:55 PM
As

I'd like to follow this post but i missed sooooo much. Insha Allah oneday i'll catch up!
Reply

kadafi
01-13-2005, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by root
I never implied nor stated that my intention was to discredit the existence of Allah, I hear many times in this forum "Misconceptions" of what the west have of Muslim's. I am afraid to say that you too have a Misconception"
Don't get me the wrong way, but bein' an atheist implies that you deny the existence of the Omnipotence. On that fact alone, you provide reasons to dispel the existence of God. In fact, I'd love to read how you concluded that God cannot exist.

Evolutionary science CANNOT discount the theory of creationism. To discuss Science, is not to disprove the theory of "Allah".
You stated 'Evolutionary science in the first sentence and Science in the latter. Evolution is not science and never will be. The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. But It is believed despite the scientific evidence. Science is against the theory of evolution. Moreover evolutionary science automatically discredits theism. That's the whole purpose of the theory.

Peace
Reply

root
01-13-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by kadafi
Don't get me the wrong way, but bein' an atheist implies that you deny the existence of the Omnipotence. On that fact alone, you provide reasons to dispel the existence of God. In fact, I'd love to read how you concluded that God cannot exist.


You stated 'Evolutionary science in the first sentence and Science in the latter. Evolution is not science and never will be. The theory of evolution is not believed because of scientific evidence. But It is believed despite the scientific evidence. Science is against the theory of evolution. Moreover evolutionary science automatically discredits theism. That's the whole purpose of the theory.

Peace
Their is little point to this thread now, it became interesting then died out. With what you say above, i doubt you were awake when you went to Science class as a Kid and then attended Religous Education. Fot the two are quite different. It seems for some here the two are not. And that is a great shame........

Peace
Reply

kadafi
01-13-2005, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by root
Their is little point to this thread now, it became interesting then died out. With what you say above, i doubt you were awake when you went to Science class as a Kid and then attended Religous Education. Fot the two are quite different. It seems for some here the two are not. And that is a great shame........

Peace
Hi,

Like I mentioned in my previous above, Science and Islam are the two legs of man, if you stand on one or the other sooner or later you are going to fall. Perhaps you grew up with the concept that religion & science are fundamentally incompatible and thus seperatable. That might be true in Christianity or any other religious doctrine, but Islam itself is more than a religion. As Einstein once stated, "science without Religion is lame". Science leads to the existence of God whilst pseudo science leads to a dead end.

Many of the greatest scientists saw their science as a means of uncovering traces of God's handiwork in the universe.

Another example to point is the intellectual renaissance that the Muslims triggered. They went from the ignorant inhabitants of Arabian Peninsula to the one of the greatest civilizations that history has ever known. They contributed major inventions to every field of science. Some are known as the founder of that particular field. What lead this intellectual desire you ask? Simple, the thirst to study the creation of God as stated in the Qu'ran:

Those who remember God, standing, sitting and lying on
their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth (saying):
"Our Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire."
(Qur'an, 3: 191)

Have they not looked at the camel-how it was created?
And at the sky-how it was raised up?
And at the mountains-how they were embedded?
And at the earth-how it is spread out?
So remind them! You are only a reminder.
(Qur'an, 88: 17-21)

Peace
Reply

aamirsaab
01-13-2005, 04:40 PM
see this is what happens when u try and mix science with islam

sometimes it works
sometimes it doesnt
just because science says something it doesnt mean we have 2 believe.
likewise just because religion says something doesnt mean we follow it (although we should)

sometimes science can mix with religion but bare in mind that religion came to mankind before science.

science gives us some answers that may never be revealed in religion.
religion can give us answers that may never be revealed in science.

u cant just follow science
and similarly u cant just follow religion - u need both of them to provide u with answers that u seek. if u only follow one of them properly and reject the other then things dont add up.


god created religion
man made science
who do u follow?
Reply

kadafi
01-13-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
see this is what happens when u try and mix science with islam

sometimes it works
sometimes it doesnt
just because science says something it doesnt mean we have 2 believe.
likewise just because religion says something doesnt mean we follow it (although we should)
:sl:

You have this wrong definition of what science actually stands for. Science is merely the tool to explain the laws of God. No one said you've to follow it. As some say, it's man's undying thirst from knowledge. Furthermore, we're discussing established science. Unfortunately, it's worrysome that my fellow muslims claim that we should avoid science even though it goes against the statement of God in the Qu'ran which is to seek knowledge and study his creation.

You further stated brother, saying "just because religion says something doesn't mean we follow it". I do not quite comprehend that line perhaps you could elucidate it to me.

sometimes science can mix with religion but bare in mind that religion came to mankind before science.
Like I stated above, science is a tool to explain God's creation. To understand His creation. There was this famous sayin' -- Science explains how, Religion explains why.

Established science never contradicts Islam since they both are the twinsisters.

Wa'salaam
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
01-13-2005, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by root
Yet more misconceptions....

Atheist's fully subscribe to Darwinian theory of evolution

Not true my freind, you see what your trying to do is "Group" atheists into a catagory to which you can discuss on a "them and us basis".
back to a previous point mentioned athiesm is just like a religion of people who wish not to follow/obey the Almighty Allah.

is always changing, you now get the string theory which is being accepted by the athiest community.
Reply

root
01-13-2005, 09:25 PM
back to a previous point mentioned athiesm is just like a religion of people who wish not to follow/obey the Almighty Allah.
So according to you I am a religous person?

is always changing, you now get the string theory which is being accepted by the athiest community.
Yes, it is subject to many changes. Don't buy the string theory as being the most popular.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-14-2005, 10:06 AM
in reference 2 kadafis reply

when i said sometimes islam and science mix and sometimes they dont i meant :
that sometimes u can explian stuff in islam with science
but sometimes u cant
e.g. evolution theory -. some people believe that we evolved from monkey. using science we can see the similarities between human and monkey. their are several features that are extremely similar ( ill not divulge into these tho). but islam tells us that we didnt evolve from monkey.

with regards to science being a tool/
yes it is a tool.
but that does not mean we have to use it all the time.
sometimes we cn find an explanation with science.
if we cant then perhaps the answer lies in our religion
or perhaps we as humans are not suppose to know these things yet.

using the tool theory, the above says
if a box is locked then can use a tool(science) to open it.
however, if the box is not meant to be opened then perhaps ur tool may break or perhaps u need another tool(Science) from a new toolbox (religion)

i am not saying that we shouldnt follow science itself.
im saying that we shouldnt follow it blindly - we should follow science AND our religion.

yes we can use science 2 explain a lot of things in this world.
but can science explain the afterlife (i.e heaven or hell)
no because it is simply a tool as u have stated
can we use our religion to explain the afterlife - almost certainly

yes science and islam do sometimes mix
but not always.
it depends on two things
what the question is
what answer are you looking for.


finally, regarding the : ''just because religion says something doesnt meen we follow it''
let us take 4 example the belief in the oneness of allah and that there is no god but he.
now, muslims only worship allah. yet, hindus for example do not believe or worship in allah. they have many gods

basically wot i meant was: just because one religion says something it doesnt meen that everyone will follow it.
because we each have our own beliefs.

hope that has cleared some stuff up brother kadafi.
now id best b off
iv got an exam soon eep.
wasalam 2 all
p.s if ur still lost in my explanation then pm me and ill further explain it.
Reply

root
01-14-2005, 11:57 AM
e.g. evolution theory -. some people believe that we evolved from monkey. using science we can see the similarities between human and monkey. their are several features that are extremely similar ( ill not divulge into these tho). but islam tells us that we didnt evolve from monkey.
Such as we share a 99% DNA Match! Or that they will kill their own kind in territorial disputes.

no because it is simply a tool as u have stated
can we use our religion to explain the afterlife - almost certainly
The after life you beleive you are going to is a theory, just like I beleive that I will simply be dead, with no spiritual after life.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-14-2005, 04:41 PM
thank you root

we both share similar ideas on this subject.
Reply

kadafi
01-14-2005, 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
in reference 2 kadafis reply

when i said sometimes islam and science mix and sometimes they dont i meant :
that sometimes u can explian stuff in islam with science
but sometimes u cant
e.g. evolution theory -. some people believe that we evolved from monkey. using science we can see the similarities between human and monkey. their are several features that are extremely similar ( ill not divulge into these tho). but islam tells us that we didnt evolve from monkey.
:sl: brother,

Brother, when I make mention of the term science, I automatically refer it to established science and not theses. There are some theories who contradict what Islam stands for (i.e. evolution). And by the way, the evolution theory is not science but a dogma kept alive in spite of it. Some may argue that it's part of science but it's controversial.

with regards to science being a tool/
yes it is a tool.
but that does not mean we have to use it all the time.
sometimes we cn find an explanation with science.
if we cant then perhaps the answer lies in our religion
or perhaps we as humans are not suppose to know these things yet.
Brother, you misconstrued the essence of my point. Science is a tool used to explain the creation of God. There are atleast 1200 versesin the Qur'an which deal with scientific subjects. And in some verses (Ayahs) Allah SWT asks us to ponder on His creation. Allah SWT ends with these verses with the line "the Signs for those people who think or are wise." Inna Fi Dalika La Ayathin Li Qaumin Yatha Fakkarun.

So my point is that science is nothin' more than the examination of Allah's creation. I never implied or specifically stated that we should "follow" science, we just should ponder about his Creation.

"...reflect on the creation of the heavens and the Earth (saying): Our Lord! Thou hast not created this in vain! Glory be to Thee"
Imran:191

Wa'salaam
Reply

kadafi
01-14-2005, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by root
Such as we share a 99% DNA Match! Or that they will kill their own kind in territorial disputes.
The 99% DNA myth has been confuted by many scientists.

http://www.harunyahya.com/mediawatch...dead_sci34.php
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
01-14-2005, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by root
So according to you I am a religous person?
well you follow the religion of 'athiests', the religion of mens minds and thoughts.

the followers just go with the flow kind of thing.
Reply

aamirsaab
01-14-2005, 06:09 PM
and so this most excellent discussion is at an end
what say u kadafi
has the discussion ended? or is there still life in it yet?
Reply

Brother_Mujahid
01-14-2005, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
and so this most excellent discussion is at an end
what say u kadafi
has the discussion ended?
dont say that or he'll lock it up for good :confused:
Reply

root
01-14-2005, 10:13 PM
The fundamental laws that we draw upon in science, are now fighting it out. But which theory survives, and which one falls to the waste side.

Despite Tomasko's off-the-cuff interpretation of the initial picture, it was not immediately clear whether the images did, in fact, show liquid ethane or related compounds theorized to exist on the surface.
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/cassini/050114pix.html
Reply

root
01-16-2005, 09:07 PM
Been away a few days due to the landing of the Titan probe. Great stuff, I personally am delighted that Titan is not covered in Crators, sure sign that a Planet\Moon has nature at work.

Feel this thread is starting to go down the Creationism v Evolution. So I thought I would quote your official stance on the matter.

Such statements in the Qur'an concerning the Creation, which appeared nearly fourteen centuries ago, obviously do not lend themselves to a human explanation.
Reply

kadafi
01-16-2005, 10:33 PM
Such statements in the Qur'an concerning the Creation, which appeared nearly fourteen centuries ago, obviously do not lend themselves to a human explanation.
A wonderful statement, too bad you do not see that way.

I do have a question for you root and since this thread has run its course, it would be appropiate to ask. Perhaps we could create a new topic regarding this.

What made you denounce the existence of God? Since you probably see the religious people as fideists, what made you realize that God cannot possibly exist. Now, I do not want you to perceive this question as a attack to your beliefs but I just want to read your reasons.

Peace!
Reply

root
02-27-2005, 05:45 PM
I do have a question for you root and since this thread has run its course, it would be appropiate to ask. Perhaps we could create a new topic regarding this.

What made you denounce the existence of God?
That would imply I accepted it in the first place, considering I was born into a Christian faith does not imply a conciouse decision by myself to do so. I consider it more "Opting Out".

Since you probably see the religious people as fideists, what made you realize that God cannot possibly exist.
I don't imply God's non existence, and thus I don't deny we may well be a result of Creation. I just don't subcribe to the Religous explanation of "Why and how we came to be"

Now, I do not want you to perceive this question as a attack to your beliefs but I just want to read your reasons.
I don't perceive your comments as an attack. I respect the Muslim faith, I simply don't subscribe to it.
Reply

جوري
07-05-2012, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by root
I dislike the notion of "Intelligent design" being so complex how could it evolve. It's like debating the "Fire cracking beatle". Complexity is not a supporting arguement for scientific facts.
neither is the 'science' you present here an explanation (as I have been reading quite a few of your posts)
You theorize incorrectly and you simply substitute one set of 'evidence' which you deem acceptable for another set that you deem unacceptable .. at the end of the day you loan yourself to even more colorful fairy tales.
I have not seen ONE decent argument against 'intelligent design' just alot of intellectual bullying & dishonesty.
Science should actually concern itself with the details and you're asking us simply to skip over them because you've decided that complexity isn't a factor. How about complexity that facilitates function and form? putting an x number of amino acids together will not make a compound purposeful or functional, annealing a denatured husk will not give it its former shape.. so my question is, where do you get this mordant bravado to speak against creationism when what you offer comes off so pathetically empty?

Also as a side note, I do wonder what your definition of 'evolution' is?

best,
Reply

Muezzin
07-05-2012, 09:58 PM
Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman!
Reply

جوري
07-05-2012, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Holy Thread Necromancy, Batman!
I know dude but there were a couple of dwellers here from way back when I'd have loved to have dueled with.
I don't know why i enjoy extreme challenges & the hunt.. not that I think either of them contenders anyway but things have quieted around here and become boring with all the 'ex' this and 'ex' that...

:w:
Reply

ardianto
07-07-2012, 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Uthmān
Doesn't this imply the big bang? I've heard that story before. I agree that the world wasn't created by itself but Allah (SWT) made the big bang happen and thus the universe was created.
Assalamu'alaikum

There are many Muslim astronomers in my place. They said, there was a Big Bang that created the universe. They made this conclusion after they observed the universe. What made the Big Bang? the Muslim astronomers could not give exact answer except, "Allah wanted it happen". Ulama added this conclusion with "If Allah want something happen, He just say: Kun Fayakun (happen, then happen)".

Science is not against Islam, even in science and nature we can find signs of the greatness of Allah.

"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason"
(Al-Baqarah: 164)
Reply

Qurratul Ayn
07-07-2012, 09:20 AM


Originally Posted by منوة الخيال
I know dude but there were a couple of dwellers here from way back when I'd have loved to have dueled with.
:haha: I truly laughed out loudly on that comment

To pit your wits against??? Lol...

Ready for battle... COMMENCE!
Reply

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