Lifting of Muslim boycott of Holocaust Memorial Day

[glo]

I wonder if some of you can help me here.
Please don't let this thread escalate into hatemongering or nasty exchanges - thank you! :)

I read this article recently, stating that the "Muslim Council of Britain, the country's largest Islamic organization, [has decided] to end its boycott of Holocaust Day held on 27 January every year" (Quote from http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/6469)

The article also states that "until the decision was made by the Muslim council, British Islamic community representatives were seen to have distanced themselves from ceremonies marking the mass murder of about six million Jews during the Second World War."

Whilst I applaud the decision in the name of friendship and mutual understanding, I was not aware of any such trend in the Muslim community to 'boycott Holocaust Memorial Day' ...
Can anybody tell me a little more about this?

Thanks in advance.

[glo]

Does nobody have any Information on this?

[Talha777]

It's a good decision. The nazi holocaust happened decades ago, but there is a holocaust going on right now being committed by america and many european nations against the muslims. Until this holocaust is acknowledged, why should Muslims have to continue to cry about nazi germany that has nothing do with us and completely ignores our suffering which is much worse.

[Whatsthepoint]

It's a good decision. The nazi holocaust happened decades ago, but there is a holocaust going on right now being committed by america and many european nations against the muslims. Until this holocaust is acknowledged, why should Muslims have to continue to cry about nazi germany that has nothing do with us and completely ignores our suffering which is much worse.

Why do non-muslims cry about Palestine. why do they cry about Guantanamo? Iraq? Afghanistan? it as compleetly nothing to do with them. they cry about it because they're humans and, as it seems, so are the muslim counselors of Briatin.

our suffering which is much worse.

Erm...lol.:giggling:

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[Talha777]

Why do non-muslims cry about Palestine. why do they cry about Guantanamo? Iraq? Afghanistan?

What a lie. If non-Muslims cared about the suffering and genocide against Muslims so much it would end tomorrow. America is supposedly the strongest nation on Earth, why do majority of americans vote for a government that perpetuates massacred against innocent Muslims. Give me a break non-Muslims care about Muslims that is the biggest joke I ever heard. Non-Muslims hate Muslims and our religion, and it brings a smile to their face when they see Muslims being killed by Israel and America and NATO.

[glo]

It's a good decision. The nazi holocaust happened decades ago, but there is a holocaust going on right now being committed by america and many european nations against the muslims. Until this holocaust is acknowledged, why should Muslims have to continue to cry about nazi germany that has nothing do with us and completely ignores our suffering which is much worse.

Six million Jews were murdered during the Second World War.
I am German myself, so that atrocity sits pretty deep! (Incidentally, Holocaust denial is against the law in Germany - that's not to accuse anybody here of being a Holocaust denier, but to demonstrate how serious an issue this is in Germany)

My reason for starting this thread, however, was not to start a debate about whose suffering is greater etc, but to find out if anybody can tell me more about a 'Muslim boycott of Holocaust memorial Day'.
Does anybody know if there really is such a boycott, officially?
And if so, how did it come about? Where does it stem from?

I must admit that I am bewildered by the concept. From a purely human perspective I would hope that we can all empathize with human suffering, and that we would want to express that by sharing and remembering with others who suffer ...

Does any one group of humans deserve to suffer???

Peace on Earth, and Goodwill to all mankind :)

[Talha777]

but to find out if anybody can tell me more about a 'Muslim boycott of Holocaust memorial Day'.
Does anybody know if there really is such a boycott, officially?
And if so, how did it come about? Where does it stem from?

This is the question I answered. This is actually an old issue. Muslim Council of Britain made this decision to boycott Holocaust Memorial Day because it is used as a justification for the state of israel to steal land of muslims, and because it is not Islamic to give so much importance to a holocaust that happened to non-muslims decades ago while there is a holocaust going on right now against muslims which is even worse.

[Jayda]

lol glo you remind me of a dutch friend i met on CF :) ...as a total aside i really wish i could somehow set her up with a friend of mine, they'd be such a cute couple!

*sigh* frustrations, frustrations...

[glo]

This is the question I answered. This is actually an old issue. Muslim Council of Britain made this decision to boycott Holocaust Memorial Day because it is used as a justification for the state of israel to steal land of muslims, and because it is not Islamic to give so much importance to a holocaust that happened to non-muslims decades ago while there is a holocaust going on right now against muslims which is even worse.

Thank you, Talha777

I had not noticed an answer to my original question in your previous replies, but this one is clear. :)
Do you have any links on the history behind this? Such as, when the decision was made? I would much appreciate it.

As to your rep comment, I would still very much like to think of you as a brother in humanity, and as my 'neighbour' in the Biblical sense - despite our differences in faith.

Salam, brother.

[Jayda]

oookaaaay....

[glo]

Talha, can I then call you a friend?

[Jayda]

vielleicht er hattet einen schlecten Tag?

[Keltoi]

Talha, can I then call you a friend?

I'll be your brother Glo! :D

[north_malaysian]

When people talk about holocaust... they would say the victims are 6 millions Jews...

How about the:

Soviet POWs - 3,300,000
Belarusians - 2,230,000
Poles - 1,800,000
Gypsies - 1,500,000
Anti-Hitler Germans - 1,500,000
Serbs - 600,000
Disabled - 400,000
Freemasons - 200,000
Spanish POWs - 16,000
Gays - 15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses - 15,000

There were Muslim victims too among the Gypsies and Serbs.

In fact many Muslims (Albanians, Turks and Bosniaks) risking themselves by helping the Jews to get out from Europe in that time....

[Talha777]

Look how Muslims were massacred in Yugoslavia. If Hitler were alive today he would be killed, but the Muslim hitler (Slobodan Milosevich) whose hands are soacked with Muslim blood is leading a comfortable life. This is why we Muslims should boycott their "holocaust memorials" and completely stop commemorating the genocide of non-Muslims until the kuffar stop the genocides against the Muslims first.

[north_malaysian]

Muslims who saved the Jews during Nazi Occupation:

Abdol Hussain Sardari (Iranian)

• Iranian diplomat in Paris
• convinced Nazi officials that all Iranian Jews are ethnic Persians.
• issued 500 blank Iranian passports for Non Iranian Jews.

Selahattin Ulkumen (Turkish)

• Turkish diplomat in Rhodes, Greece
• convinced Nazi officials that all Turkish Jews in Rhodes are ethnic Turks.
• saved more than 200 Jews (including Italian and Greek Jews) from being sent to death camps.
• instructed and assisted all Jews in Rhodes to migrate to Turkey by smallboats.
• secured the release of 39 Greek and Turk boatmen who helped Italian soldiers to refuge in Turkey after German occupation from death punishment.

Namik Kemal Yolga (Turkish)

• Vice-Consul of Turkish Embassy in Paris.
• saved all Turkish Jews, excluding one who was living in Bordeaux and unknown to the embassy.

Necdet Kent (Turkish)

• Consul General in Marsailles.
• gave Turkish citizenship to dozens of Turkish Jews who did not have proper identity papers.
• got on a Nazi train which held 80 Turkish Jews and saved them from being sent to death camps.

Khaled Abdelwahhab (Tunisian)

• hid two dozens of Jews in his farm at Mahdia for 4 month until Nazi occupation ended.

Saide Arifova (Crimean Tatar)

• saved more than 88 Crimean Jews
• forged documents by concealing Jewish children ethnicity in a kindergarten and orphanage in Kerch.

Ali Sheqer Pashkaj (Albanian)

• saved Albanian Jews in his village.

More than 70 Muslims have received the Righteous Among the Nations award from Yad Vashem, about 63 of them are Albanians.

Many Albanians who saved the Jews during Nazi occupation are devout Muslims and referred to the Koran, when were asked why they saved the Jews.

[north_malaysian]

More Muslims who saved the Jews...

Si Ali Sakkat (Tunisian)

• hid 60 Jewish internees escaped from an Axis labour camp in Tunis until the end of occupation.

Si Kaddour Benghabrit (French)

• Rector of Great Mosque of Paris
• saved 100 Jews by having the mosque's personnel give them certificates of Muslim identity.

Sultan Muhammad V (Moroccan)

• provided moral support and practical helps to Jewish subjects.

Bey of Tunis (Tunisian)

• provided moral support and practical helps to Jewish subjects.

Mosque preachers of Algiers (Algerians)

• mosque preachers gave Friday semons forbidding believers from serving as conservators of confiscated Jewish properties.

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100601417.html

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you north_malaysian;

Thank you for reminding us that Muslims risked their lives to help others despite their differences.. I have a greater sense of the spirit of God working when we help someone we could possibly look on as an enemy. The power of the Good Samaritan comes to mind.

There are Jewish and Christian peacemakers supporting the Palestinians.

It just makes so much sense to me that we should support and care for each other despite all our differences. If we have a faith in God then we cannot deny that the same God created us all despite all our differences.

In the spirit of praying for a greater interfaith friendship,

Eric

[glo]

When people talk about holocaust... they would say the victims are 6 millions Jews...

How about the:

Soviet POWs - 3,300,000
Belarusians - 2,230,000
Poles - 1,800,000
Gypsies - 1,500,000
Anti-Hitler Germans - 1,500,000
Serbs - 600,000
Disabled - 400,000
Freemasons - 200,000
Spanish POWs - 16,000
Gays - 15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses - 15,000

There were Muslim victims too among the Gypsies and Serbs.

In fact many Muslims (Albanians, Turks and Bosniaks) risking themselves by helping the Jews to get out from Europe in that time....

Greetings north malaysian

You make a good point. Many people from many ethnic, religious and other groups died during the Nazi regime - and their suffering should be recognised just the same.

Is your post an argument for Muslims to join in Holocaust Memorial Day - knowing that not just Jews, but people from other groups and faiths (including Muslims) died too?
Would a memorial day be more worthy or meaningful, if it remembered 'your own people' rather than 'people from other groups'?

Talha's posts reflect the thinking I read about in my original article, that the world should remember all genocides, including the ones which happened more recently than WWII.

There are about 1.6 million Muslims living in Britain and until the decision was made by the Muslim council, British Islamic community representatives were seen to have distanced themselves from ceremonies marking the mass murder of about six million Jews during the Second World War. Some asserted that the title of the commemoration should be Genocide Memorial Day, thus allowing for the public to remember genocides other than the one organized by German dictator Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party.

Peace

[glo]

Thank you for your accounts of Muslims saving Jews, Malaysia.

It is always very heartening to hear when people cross the line to help a fellow human being. :)

Peace

[barney]

Look how Muslims were massacred in Yugoslavia. If Hitler were alive today he would be killed, but the Muslim hitler (Slobodan Milosevich) whose hands are soacked with Muslim blood is leading a comfortable life. This is why we Muslims should boycott their "holocaust memorials" and completely stop commemorating the genocide of non-Muslims until the kuffar stop the genocides against the Muslims first.

Talha. Just before you enter my ignore list as its first ever member, Can you name the force that came to save the muslims from Milosovic in 1999. Who bombed their brothers in religion in order to defeat the Serbs and stop his genocide?

Was it
A) Muslim Nations United in Fraternity
B) International Ummah Support and Protection Force
C) NATO

Clue it was the Christian one in the UK, US and German planes

Sweet mercy. You absolutly stagger me. Your level of blind hatred, the blinkered sopping up of hopeless propaganda, the tinfoil conspiracys.

If you were a Somali receiving food from the Americans after months of famine and hunger, you would spit on the dirty kuffar food to buy bullets to kill the aidworkers.

The christians here are doing their "I'll be your freind" thing as they do. Me, I just hope that one day you wake up on the real world instead of the raving fantasy land that you inhabit.

You have my best wishes and deepest sympathy.

[Trumble]

If Hitler were alive today he would be killed, but the Muslim hitler (Slobodan Milosevich) whose hands are soacked with Muslim blood is leading a comfortable life.

:?

Milosevich died last year, while on trial at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia for crimes against humanity (including genocide).

At least make some attempt to get your facts right on something...

[Muezzin]

I do wish everybody kept their posts on-topic, and attacked arguments rather than other members.

Many thanks to those who have not posted spam or attacked other members.

[MTAFFI]

I find it terribly sad that the lady who posted this thread specifically requested it not be used for hatemongering purposes but for informational, and yet some are so infuriated by a memorial day for 6 million people who were persecuted and murdered by a blanking mad man that they must turn it into whose persecution is worse. What a pitiful display of ignorance, apathy and many other adjectives that I wont use on this forum in order to not be disabled.

To answer your question though glo, I have absolutely no clue as to why a muslim group would boycott a memorial day comemorizing the death of 6 million people just because they read the Torah. Probably just a typical case of ethnocentricism combined with the thought as so commonly produced on this thread that ones suffering can be worse than anothers, even though all suffering is equally saddening.

[Muezzin]

Ya know, I never knew about this boycott to begin with. Which is strange considering I'm a Muslim Brit. I'm not saying there never was a boycott or anything, I'm just saying it's very weird that I never heard of it. Maybe I'm just ill-informed.

Anyway, it's very good this boycott has been lifted. Had I known about it earlier, I would have opposed it then.

[MTAFFI]

Ya know, I never knew about this boycott to begin with. Which is strange considering I'm a Muslim Brit. I'm not saying there never was a boycott or anything, I'm just saying it's very weird that I never heard of it. Maybe I'm just ill-informed.

or maybe you are just well informed and luckily didnt get reeled into the same mountain of feces as others :X

[glo]

Thank you for your comments, MTAFFI and Muezzin :)

MTAFFI, I have been around for long enough to know how threads can develop ... especially in the World Affairs section. Hence my early request to avoid aggressive responses.
Evidentally it doesn't always work ... :D

It brings me back to my earlier thoughts: if we are really and truly honest with ourselves, do we ever consider the suffering of some groups of people more worthy than that of others?
And (for those of us who believe in God), do we believe God considers the suffering of some as more note-worthy than others? And does our religion teach us as such??

Once a year I usually participate in a charitable run for Cancer Research UK - the proceeds go towards cancer research and cancer treatments.
Now, I never stop to think that I would prefer the money to go to the welfare of a specific group of people - say, only women, or white people, or Christians, or Germans ...
The reason I don't is that I believe all human life is equally sacred, all human suffering is equally bad and should equally be tried to be eliminated.

What do others think?

Peace

[MTAFFI]

What do others think?

Peace

I agree with you completely. Any man or woman suffering is equally is saddening as anothers no matter race, religion, gender or otherwise.

But what about war, can the suffering perpetuated by war upon those who choose to fight be categorized with the same line of thought as the people suffering from disease, disorder or accidents? Can you feel sorry for those who fight against your country to kill you and your family while at the same time feel sympathy for the suffering of them or their relatives? I feel this is relative because of the cause of the majority of suffering in the world is due to war. Just as the jews suffered and continue to, the Muslims that continue to and the Christians as well.

While it may sound hardened or callus to some, I do not feel sympathy for those that fight against my country. I can only wish them a quick death and my country an even swifter victory. I feel as though they attacked me first and I know they feel the same about my country, which is generally the cause of war... "You say I did it, I say you did it, well lets fight and finish it". And so it is the pitfall of mankind, the desire to attack one another over money, power, values, religious beliefs, land, political reasons and the list goes on. And that is ultimately what I feel sorry for (as far as war goes), the fact that mankind had evolved so well and yet still cannot settle our differences through dialogue and wit rather than guns and bombs.

[Amadeus85]

Holocaust is something unique because it was prepared and made by educated, civilizated and sophisticated nation in the heart of Europe.Mao Ze Dong is responsible for more deaths, Stalin the same, but who knows what hapenned somehwere deep in Asia. We also shouldnt forget that Hitler was actually austrian and austrians played very important role in german army and SS. They were known from their brutality. Suprisingly after the war Austria was told to be a victim of Nazi Germans. Its also worth to add that in the end of the war, in 1945, about 90% of Germans supported Hitler.

[Keltoi]

My guess would be that the boycott was simply some misguided form of "punishment" against Israel. Of course I don't know that, but that would be my first guess.

[north_malaysian]

Is your post an argument for Muslims to join in Holocaust Memorial Day - knowing that not just Jews, but people from other groups and faiths (including Muslims) died too?

Yes.

Would a memorial day be more worthy or meaningful, if it remembered 'your own people' rather than 'people from other groups'?

Nope. It would be more meaningful if all religious and ethnic groups to be together on a memorial day... as the crimes committed by Hitler causing the death of 11,000,000 Jews, Christians, Muslims and Atheists.

Talha's posts reflect the thinking I read about in my original article, that the world should remember all genocides, including the ones which happened more recently than WWII.

Yes...

''...if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people...''

(Koran:5:32)

[north_malaysian]

Thank you for your accounts of Muslims saving Jews, Malaysia.

It is always very heartening to hear when people cross the line to help a fellow human being. :)

Peace

I highlighted about Muslims who saved thousands of Jews during Nazi occupation because I want to show to the Holocaust Denial Muslims that, how come these Muslims saved Jews like crazy if there was no such thing as holocaust?:hmm:

[Joe98]

…..until the kuffar stop the genocides against the Muslims first.


why do majority of americans vote for a government that perpetuates massacred against innocent Muslims.

That’s easy – because no such thing is happening. You made it up.


-

[Joe98]

and because it is not Islamic to give so much importance to a holocaust that happened to non-muslims decades ago

Thank you to for teachng us about Islam. On this forum I have heard many times that in any given event, if no muslims are involved, then muslims don't care about it no matter how horrible it might be.


-

[Muezzin]

Thank you to for teachng us about Islam. On this forum I have heard many times that in any given event, if no muslims are involved, then muslims don't care about it no matter how horrible it might be.


-

So you forget the numerous replies, by other Muslims on this forum, to such remarks? You know, the ones saying something along the lines of 'Hey, that's crazy talk! Nobody deserves to die like that, regardless of their religion! It's appalling!'

[north_malaysian]

So you forget the numerous replies, by other Muslims on this forum, to such remarks? You know, the ones saying something along the lines of 'Hey, that's crazy talk! Nobody deserves to die like that, regardless of their religion! It's appalling!'

:thumbs_up

Eid Mubarak!!!

[Omar_Mukhtar]

I think their boycott has something do with some Zionist organisations using the holocaust as means of justifying the land seizure in Palestine and alikening certain Muslims groups to Hitler's attempts to cleanse the Jews! So I think they boycotted as it would mean people may think they are legitimizing Israel's existence!David Ben Gurion realised this dillema:


“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

[Muezzin]

I've changed the thread title to more accurately convey the news story in the first post, and to prevent some hostile nuttiness.

[Jayda]

i think it is more important that they lifted the ban than that it was ever in place... it was the right thing to do and we should always applaud right action :)

[Fishman]

:sl:
People who believe in ridiculous conspiracy theories about Zionists and Freemasons and Crusaders only do so because they have not developed their views properly. It is very convienent to distort the world into a black and white 'goodies and baddies' picture, because it is easy to understand.

The War in Bosnia was an example of the agression of a combination of Nationalism and Christianity against Muslims, which was stopped by a combination of Democracy and Christianity. It is easy to see that Religion divided the people, but it was Nationalism that caused the slaughter. I think Nationalism is one of the most evil forces alive in the world today, one which must be ripped from the people's hearts and minds, and skewered with the very flag which it waves so arrogantly.
:w:

[Jayda]

hola Fishman,

while i agree with you about conspiracy theories and all of this antisemitic nonsense about 'zionism' i still think Omar had an important point... somewhat clouded by the unfortunate way he chose to express it:

israel is unusual in the modern world... it was carved out of the homeland of somebody else, people were literally shipped into the area to create the country and the reason for all of this was a UN mandate written specifically in response to the holocaust, an event for which the palestinians had no part and committed no culpability.

why did the palestinians have to lose their homes for restitution of a crime committed by somebody else?

it is, i think, one of the burning questions of history. so Omar's frustration... and presumably the frustration many muslims feel with regards to celebrating holocaust memorial, is justified in that they are once again told to answer for a crime they did not commit.

i guess the excess baggage to them means the Holocaust did not end in 1945... it continued into the 50's and 60's and is left as an unanswered question even into today.



but in my mind, trying to make amends for the unjust circumstances of the creation of Israel is not worth pursuing... now two generations of israelis later it would be making amends for an offense not given. these are a new generation, this is their home... they belong here too. and to dwell on it only increases hatred and makes peace more elusive.

the question that needs to be answered now is how do we get them all to live together cohesively and with equal opportunity, forgetting what has passed.

que Dios te bendiga

[caroline]

What a lie. If non-Muslims cared about the suffering and genocide against Muslims so much it would end tomorrow. America is supposedly the strongest nation on Earth, why do majority of americans vote for a government that perpetuates massacred against innocent Muslims. Give me a break non-Muslims care about Muslims that is the biggest joke I ever heard. Non-Muslims hate Muslims and our religion, and it brings a smile to their face when they see Muslims being killed by Israel and America and NATO.

:cry: I don't blame you one bit for feeling the way you do, but I have to tell you that I DO care and I cared way before I ever considered converting to Islam. As a matter of fact, I cared so much I went straight to the books to find out more about you and that is how I came to LOVE Islam. Because my heart was so broken for Palestinians, Iraqis and all Muslim people who are now victims of a holocaust just as horrible as the one that happened in Europe. I do everything I can to increase awareness in my fellow US residents (I don't use the word "american" out of respect for the many nations living on this continent). And I frankly am not sure that the people in the White House did actually win the majority vote.

So please, don't think we are all duped by the corporatocracy -- we're not. And many of us are doing everything we can to stop the present war on Islam. Many of us care deeply. Many of us protest and get arrested and thrown in jail. Youtube war protesters and you'll see how the police treat us when we try to make our voices heard. Over 80% of the people in the US are very VERY disapproving of our current administration but our voices are not being heard. We put bills before the House and Senate and when they pass the president vetoes them. There are bills that have been passed 2 or 3 times and he continues to veto them.

A lot of us care more than you know. :cry:

[MTAFFI]

i think it is more important that they lifted the ban than that it was ever in place... it was the right thing to do and we should always applaud right action :)

excellent point

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Fishman;885577]:sl:

People who believe in ridiculous conspiracy theories about Zionists and Freemasons and Crusaders only do so because they have not developed their views properly. It is very convienent to distort the world into a black and white 'goodies and baddies' picture, because it is easy to understand.

Laugh if you want, but no one will convince me that there is no powerful masonery, in France for example.

The War in Bosnia was an example of the agression of a combination of Nationalism and Christianity against Muslims, which was stopped by a combination of Democracy and Christianity. It is easy to see that Religion divided the people, but it was Nationalism that caused the slaughter

.

The war in Bosnia had very little to do with religion, but much to do with nationalism and culture. For Bosniaks islam was mainly culture and nationalism, the same with orthodox christianity and Serbs and catholicism and Croatians

I think Nationalism is one of the most evil forces alive in the world today, one which must be ripped from the people's hearts and minds, and skewered with the very flag which it waves so arrogantly

I dont agree. In your statement you sound like a totalitarian. You dont like something, so you want to blow it away from the earth. I dont agree with you also because nationalism was one of the things that communists fought with (along with religion and private posession) and for me everything that communists fought with is good and valuable.

[caroline]

hola Fishman,

while i agree with you about conspiracy theories and all of this antisemitic nonsense about 'zionism' t

Woah -- all opposition to Zionism is not "antisemitic." You need to read up on Zionism. It is not nonsense and the massacre of Palestinians is not a thing of the past. Zionism is one of the most destructive, horrendous, evil forces in the world today and I will not candy coat it. Do some serious research on Zionism and you will see that concerns about it are not nonsense and they are not antisemitic.

Read Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, or many other serious studies. We all need to know the truth about this issue.

[Amadeus85]

Read Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, or many other serious studies. We all need to know the truth about this issue.

Noam Chomsky and the truth is like water and fire.

[Jayda]

i like Noam Chomsky...

[Jayda]

Woah -- all opposition to Zionism is not "antisemitic." You need to read up on Zionism. It is not nonsense and the massacre of Palestinians is not a thing of the past. Zionism is one of the most destructive, horrendous, evil forces in the world today and I will not candy coat it. Do some serious research on Zionism and you will see that concerns about it are not nonsense and they are not antisemitic.

Read Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappe, or many other serious studies. We all need to know the truth about this issue.

hola,

i'm sorry... you are simply incorrect...

que Dios te bendiga

[glo]

I've changed the thread title to more accurately convey the news story in the first post, and to prevent some hostile nuttiness.

Thank you, Muezzin. Good idea! :)

[Talha777]

Caroline is an example of a good christian, but the unfortunate truth is way too many christians and westerners are completely silent and ignore the persecution of Muslims by their governments. This needs to change if there is ever to be reconciliation between Muslims and Christians. More Christians need to start speaking out against their genocidal government otherwise how can Muslims be blamed if they perceive christians as their enemy when they have no reason not to perceive this. More Christians need to raise their voice and let Muslims know that a lot of them dont agree and are against the Western governments exploitation and genocide of Muslims.

[wilberhum]

Caroline is an example of a good christian, but the unfortunate truth is way too many christians and westerners are completely silent and ignore the persecution of Muslims by their governments.
And far too many Muslims deney the terror done in the name of there god.
This needs to change if there is ever to be reconciliation between Muslims and Christians.
And the Muslims that justify terrorism need to change before reconciliation can happen.
More Christians need to start speaking out against their genocidal government otherwise how can Muslims be blamed if they perceive christians as their enemy when they have no reason not to perceive this.
Looking at many things you have said, how can we not perceive Muslims as our enemy?
More Christians need to raise their voice and let Muslims know that a lot of them dont agree and are against the Western governments exploitation and genocide of Muslims.
More Muslims need to raise there voice and let the world know that a lot of you don't agree with terrorism.

Talha666,
There is a constant theme in your post. For reconciliation there are a lot of things "The Others" need to do. But you never mention anything that Muslims need to do,

This nothing other than your standard form of superiority.

[snakelegs]

yeah, but he's got more faith in the american system than i do. he thinks bush cares what people think. ;D

[caroline]

Caroline is an example of a good christian, but the unfortunate truth is way too many christians and westerners are completely silent and ignore the persecution of Muslims by their governments. This needs to change if there is ever to be reconciliation between Muslims and Christians. More Christians need to start speaking out against their genocidal government otherwise how can Muslims be blamed if they perceive christians as their enemy when they have no reason not to perceive this. More Christians need to raise their voice and let Muslims know that a lot of them dont agree and are against the Western governments exploitation and genocide of Muslims.

I totally agree with you! One big problem is that most Christians simply do not KNOW that their so-called "christian" leaders are war criminals and genocidal power mongers. And the ones that are faced with the facts immediately turn their backs in denial before they ever take the time to consider the factual evidence before them. Look at the comments about Noam Chomsky who was called "THE most important intellectual alive today" by the New York Times and who is one of the most often quoted academics in the world. And yet his work is dismissed so glibly. There are many very good solid academic works explaining neo-colonialism, US Imperialism and the mass atrocities that follow. But not many people want to read that kind of thing. They don't want to believe it is true and they don't have time or the inclination to wade through those kinds of texts. It's not easy reading and most people would rather turn on TV and listen to the propagandist drivel masquerading as news.

The other problem is that the neo-conservatives in the US have deceives the majority of Christians into believing that they are operating from Christian morals and with Christian motives. The deceit has been so effective that most Christians have forgotten what the message of Jesus was about. So much so that they are able to vote for warmongers and megalomaniacs and believe in their heart that they are doing the Christian thing. It is mind boggling how deceived they've been.

The worst example of this is the Christian Zionist movement. These people who are taken in by this group have forgotten everything about the message of Jesus. They believe they are doing the right thing. They see the Zionists as victims and as God's chosen people (even though the Bible clearly states that God no longer recongnizes that covenant because the people didn't honor it).

There is so much deceit in the US. You don't get the truth on the news or in the papers. It is very very VERY difficult to find out the truth about what our government is doing in the world because it is hidden from us.

Did you know that our president has not attended a single funeral of a fallen American soldier because he doesn't want the funerals in the news? Did you know that he has forbidden any images of American "grief" from the war to be shown and that one reporter got fired for posting pictures of American caskets? We are isolated from the truth. It is very hard to find. Most Americans are so busy working extra hours to pay the bills that they simply don't have time to go to college and take a class or to read the kinds of books they'd need to read to pull themselves out of the fog. They don't have time for the internet research or any of the things that would help them see the truth.

Many Americans simply don't know what's going on. And those of us who do get berated and criticized at every turn. You saw the post above. Any time an American speaks out against our government's actions or against Zionism we get attacked. As I said, people here end up in jail for protesting. And once you've been arrested in this country it's very difficult to find employment. Right now our constitution has been changed so much that any person can be arrested at any time with absolutely NO evidence against them and NO right to legal defense. They can hold you indefinitely without a trial.

And that's the truth.

[Talha777]

Thank you very much Caroline for speaking out and letting Muslims know that not all westerners and christians are like wilberbum. I like Noam Chomsky very much as well. You see many Muslims such as myself are living in the West. We see that virtually everyone here is living in peace and dont have to contend with Muslims bombing them and have to live in fear of Muslim soldiers breaking into their house, throwing them into a secret prison with no assurance of justice. You see the problem with many Christians in the West they have no empathy. But I notice many good Christians, like Caroline, have left their comfort zone to see the reality of how Muslims and many in the third world have to live in constant fear. The true terrorist is American government because the only people who are being terrorized are America's victims - the Muslims. May Allah guide you Caroline and may He make more people like you. Ameen.

[Jayda]

*edit* I see you caught that.

[north_malaysian]

UK Jews applaud Muslim decision over Holocaust Day

The MCB leadership had said that Britons should also remember massacres and genocides in Africa and in the Balkans.

Tuesday, December 11, 2007
By Trevor Grundy

Leaders of Britain's 250 000 strong Jewish community have welcomed a decision by the Muslim Council of Britain, the country's largest Islamic organization, to end its boycott of Holocaust Day held on 27 January every year.

The MCB on 1 December voted to halt its protest after those supporting the vote had said their opposition to attending the commemoration of Holocaust Day had left their organization open to accusations of not being sensitive to Jewish suffering.

The British-based Three Faiths Forum, with a leadership made up of Muslims, Jews and Christians, said the decision by Britain's Muslim council was made after the forum had urged the council to end the boycott of Holocaust Memorial Day.

"The Three Faiths Forum said it had always considered that the MCB boycott was misconceived," said the forum in a statement on 3 December.

Edward Kessler, executive director of the Centre for the Study of Jewish-Muslim Relations in Cambridge told Ecumenical News International, "The Jewish community welcomes this change which brings the Muslim community more in line with the rest of the United Kingdom."

There are about 1.6 million Muslims living in Britain and until the decision was made by the Muslim council, British Islamic community representatives were seen to have distanced themselves from ceremonies marking the mass murder of about six million Jews during the Second World War. Some asserted that the title of the commemoration should be Genocide Memorial Day, thus allowing for the public to remember genocides other than the one organized by German dictator Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party.

The MCB leadership had said that Britons should also remember massacres and genocides in Africa and in the Balkans.

"That's one of the points of Holocaust Day," said Kessler. "We do remember them all."

Representatives of the MCB, an umbrella organization with more than 500 member groups, are expected to attend the main Holocaust commemoration, which will take place in Liverpool, northwest England on 27 January.

But there were reports that the vote could persuade some groups to leave the Muslim council.

A report in The Times newspaper in London said that Daud Abdullah, MCB deputy secretary-general was believed to have voted to continue the boycott of Holocaust Day. The council's former secretary general, Sir Iqbal Sacranie, however, voted to end it.

Source: ENI www.eni.ch

taken from: http://www.speroforum.com/site/artic...+Holocaust+Day

[S_87]

i actually didnt knwow there was a muslim boycott on this. no i will not start remembering them, if anything i will remember those who are STILL suffering today. and while people remember the dead, these people are living hell on earth.

[Keltoi]

Israel isn't going anywhere...outside of divine miracle. However, some still hold on to the fantasy that Israel can be "defeated" into non-existence. As long as this fantasy remains, there will be many on both sides who will not pursue a peace deal.

I doubt the knowledge that a Muslim group once boycotted Holocaust Memorial Day is going to make much difference either.

[Muezzin]

35 off-topic posts deleted. Some are kind of blurring the line between off- and on-topic, so some posts remain which others might think need deleting, so I apologise for any perceived discrepancies.

Thank you to those who have stayed on topic.

[glo]

i actually didnt knwow there was a muslim boycott on this. no i will not start remembering them, if anything i will remember those who are STILL suffering today. and while people remember the dead, these people are living hell on earth.

But by remembering the past, do we not have an opportunity to try to not make the same mistakes in the future?

As a German born some 20 years after the end of WWII, the teaching that an atrocity like the Nazi regime must never be allowed to happen again, is very deeply ingrained.
We remember that by not forgetting the past and then looking to the present and the future ...

[Muezzin]

I don't like the word 'or'. It limits everything.

'And' is so much better. Remember the countless number of innocents killed under the Nazi regime and remember the countless innocents suffering today.

[glo]

I don't like the word 'or'. It limits everything.

'And' is so much better. Remember the countless number of innocents killed under the Nazi regime and remember the countless innocents suffering today.

I agree, brother.

I guess this takes us back to the original article, which mentioned the notion by some Muslims (and quite possibly others too) to call it Genocide Memorial Day rather than Holocaust Memorial Day ...

Having said that, I do find the suggestion by some that either the Holocaust didn't take place at all/has been exaggerated, or that the death of 6 million Jews isn't worth remembering very disturbing. :-\

[Muezzin]

I agree, brother.

I guess this takes us back to the original article, which mentioned the notion by some Muslims (and quite possibly others too) to call it Genocide Memorial Day rather than Holocaust Memorial Day ...

I don't mind. That sounds kind of 'PC gone mad' to me, but I'll know the event being referred to either way. It just seems unnecessary to me, as if some people are just trying to be difficult by changing names and things.

Having said that, I do find the suggestion by some that either the Holocaust didn't take place at all

The people who truly believe that hold an insane and outright false opinion.

has been exaggerated

Casting doubts on the number killed... I think is in extreme bad taste, but people will do it. Let them check. It's still an extremely appalling amount of people who were shoved into gas chambers, thrown into pits... To me, the principle of the genocide is the important thing, rather than the exact number. It's still a huge amount, whether it's six million or six hundred. My opinion on such things is 'Does it really matter? It's the treatment of large numbers of those people that is evil - who cares about the exact quantity of what was undeniably a large number?'

or that the death of 6 million Jews isn't worth remembering very disturbing. :-\

I find that very disturbing too. Humans have to remember the good and the bad of history. And the bad tends to be very messy and sad. Ignoring it doesn't purge it. The same goes for atrocities today. I do wish more people could understand this. Here's hoping.

[snakelegs]

do we really ever learn from history?

[crayon]

I don't think so, snakelegs.
So it just repeats itself, over and over.

[Muezzin]

do we really ever learn from history?

Only when it suits us, it seems.

Still, there's hope - individuals tend to learn from their and others' mistakes; it's just the group dynamic that is all wrong. Unfortunately, the group dynamic is the only one that really matters in the long run. It's just the way humans operate. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim...

It is possible for the individual to influence the group, so there's still hope.

[glo]

Muezzin, your posts are so encouraging! :)

Peace

[caroline]

There is a Haitian proverb that translates, "Hunger is more painful on feast days."

I think of that when I think of the difficulty of honoring the genocide of one group of people whose very descendants are currently carrying out the genocide of your own. What a struggle it must be to ignore that fact, even when you feel the struggles of the ancestors of the current perpetrators have been exaggerated while the slaughter of your own people is covered up, invalidated, or ignored even as we speak.

I don't think it sheds a good light on Muslims to boycott Holocaust memorial day, but I do understand the inclination and how very difficult a pill it must be to swallow. They are being asked to overlook what the current holocaust being waged against their own people while honoring the holocaust of the very people who should know better.

It's very ironic.

Injustice is hard to bear. Truly.

I'm amazed at the graciousness of these people who have found it in their hearts to lift the boycott. Really amazed...

[Qingu]

do we really ever learn from history?

I think we do!

I honestly think that our current society is more civilized than any in the past. I think we treat people, in general, better today than we ever have.

The entire world has collectively learned that slavery is wrong, for instance. Slavery as considered okay only a few hundred years ago (less than that in some parts of the world).

[Qingu]

I don't think it sheds a good light on Muslims to boycott Holocaust memorial day, but I do understand the inclination and how very difficult a pill it must be to swallow. They are being asked to overlook what the current holocaust being waged against their own people while honoring the holocaust of the very people who should know better.

I think it's slightly absurd to characterize the oppression of the Palestinians as a "Holocaust" or a "genocide."

It's oppression, but it's not genocide. The Israelis are not trying to kill every single Palestinian.

For the record, I also don't understand why Jews today complain about the Holocaust if they don't personally know anyone affected by it. My family is Jewish, but I don't feel any special connection with the Holocaust. I feel more connected to the people currently being wiped out in Darfur because that is happening while I'm alive and I wish I could do more to stop it.

[glo]

Hi Caroline

I don't think it sheds a good light on Muslims to boycott Holocaust memorial day, but I do understand the inclination and how very difficult a pill it must be to swallow. They are being asked to overlook what the current holocaust being waged against their own people while honoring the holocaust of the very people who should know better.
It's very ironic.

I don't quite agree with your perception.

Remembering the suffering of other people does not mean that you have to overlook the suffering of your own.
It doesn't even mean that you have to honour those people, which you may (or may not) now consider to be your enemies.
It just means that you acknowledge their past sufferings and remember them ...

Empathy is a major part of the ability of humans to live together. It's the ability to know and understand the feelings of others by relating them to one's own.
It starts by observing what is happening to somebody else, and how they respond to the situation ... and then by reflecting 'How would I feel, if it was me?' and 'What would I like to be done, if it was me?' ... and then hopefully act accordingly.

Injustice is hard to bear. Truly.

I'm amazed at the graciousness of these people who have found it in their hearts to lift the boycott. Really amazed...

You see, I am more amazed by the anger and resentment of those who implemented the boycott in the first place ...

I have found this article, which not only calls for a general Genocide Remembrance Day, but for a Muslim's Holocausts and Genocide Remembrance Day.
It is from an Islamic Site. I cannot judge the authenticity of the site in Islamic terms - I trust that somebody else here can and will alert the mods if necessary ...
I cannot even truly judge how accurate the statements , which the article makes, are. That too can be open for debate ...

But I am interested in the attitude which seems to be represented: That the Western world deliberately ignores the suffering of Muslims around the world.
I don't see that happening ... I just don't!
The papers I read here in the UK almost daily report about the trouble of innocent civilians in countries such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Darfur etc.

What are the views of others???
(Evidenced and rational opinions, rather than vague and slanderous comments, if at all possible!)

Peace :thankyou:

[Malaikah]

:sl:

I know my opinion doesn't count for much, because I'm pretty ignorant in the issue, but I think it is offence that only the slaughter of the Jews is remembered instead of a collective day for everyone who suffered in the war.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all

The Jews must have hated and feared the Germans for what they did during the war, yet the war was just six years and the holocaust stopped.

The Jewish Nation appears to be having a long term strategy of oppressing the Palestinians that does not seem to show signs of stopping.

For the holocaust to have a greater meaning for the Jewish people it should be that they do not grow into the very things that they hated and feared the most.

We are all created by the same God which means we are all brothers and sisters together.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

[north_malaysian]

Greetings and peace be with you all

The Jews must have hated and feared the Germans for what they did during the war, yet the war was just six years and the holocaust stopped.

The Jewish Nation appears to be having a long term strategy of oppressing the Palestinians that does not seem to show signs of stopping.

For the holocaust to have a greater meaning for the Jewish people it should be that they do not grow into the very things that they hated and feared the most.

We are all created by the same God which means we are all brothers and sisters together.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

I do agree with you. :happy:

[Amadeus85]

:sl:

I know my opinion doesn't count for much, because I'm pretty ignorant in the issue, but I think it is offence that only the slaughter of the Jews is remembered instead of a collective day for everyone who suffered in the war.

It's not offence for anyone. You should understand the nature of Nazi's plan, their plan was to exterminate all Jews living in Europe, not all Poles, Belarussians nor French. Jews were their ultimate aim.

[Amadeus85]

Greetings and peace be with you all

The Jews must have hated and feared the Germans for what they did during the war, yet the war was just six years and the holocaust stopped.

The Jewish Nation appears to be having a long term strategy of oppressing the Palestinians that does not seem to show signs of stopping.

For the holocaust to have a greater meaning for the Jewish people it should be that they do not grow into the very things that they hated and feared the most.

We are all created by the same God which means we are all brothers and sisters together.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric

I dont think that comparing Holocaust and Israeli- Arab war in Middle East is a good idea. Its easy to say that nowadays IDF soldiers are new Nazis, but only if we forget that the Arab side also has their bad guys ( terrorists).

[Keltoi]

I think Qingu mentioned Darfur. If one wants to point to a genocide in 2007, that is the obvious target. I believe the words "genocide" and "holocaust" are thrown around a little loosely here. What is happening in Darfur is a sickening tragedy, and the world should be ashamed that more isn't being done to stop it. If any lessons were learned from the Jewish Holocaust, it should have been to never allow it to happen again.

[north_malaysian]

If any lessons were learned from the Jewish Holocaust, it should have been to never allow it to happen again.

Yet... it happened again ... and again.... and again.... in Cambodia, Rwanda and Darfur.:exhausted

[Cognescenti]

Greetings and peace be with you all

The Jews must have hated and feared the Germans for what they did during the war, yet the war was just six years and the holocaust stopped.

The war didn't just "stop". It took the lives of millions of Allied soldiers and several trillion US $. 90% of the Jews in the city of Riga were killed. Polish and German Jews didn't fare much better. It was the prototypical genocide conducted with Teutonic efficiency. Even Darfur is a kind of ersatz genocide. It doesn't seem their heart is truly in it. It seems they would be happy if all those of the oppressed group just moved to Chad and never came back.

The state of Israel can certainly play rough with their enemies, and the Palestinians are in a bad way, but yours is a ridiculous comparison. It cannot remotely be argued there is a genocide in progress.

[Keltoi]

I agree with Cognescenti, the Jewish Holocaust was indeed the prototypical example of genocide. It was systematic, structured, and highly efficient. Nothing has come close to that level since, and hopefully it never will again.

That being said, the genocide in Darfur is effective enough to warrant more international response.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Cognescenti;

The state of Israel can certainly play rough with their enemies,

They do

and the Palestinians are in a bad way,

They are

but yours is a ridiculous comparison.

It might not be such a ridiculous comparison if you were a Palestinian living by the boarders of Israel.

It cannot remotely be argued there is a genocide in progress

If you were a Palestinian would that knowledge be any comfort to you?

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[caroline]

Eric, thank you.

And to the person who said that Israel sometimes "Plays rough" I will tell you I literally gasped when I read that phrase.

In reply to the person who said they don't believe that the suffering of Muslims is ignored, clearly you do not live in the United States. There are many studies of media bias on this topic -- all you have to do is google it. US media is not just biased. It's not even just weighted in Israel's favor. We simply don't hear a single thing about Israel's crimes and yet we get every little incident from the other direction over and over and over again.

I understand that it is possible to remember the suffering of others... I also think it's good to honor the generosity of people who are willing to do this when their own people are being blown to bits by the hundreds of thousands RIGHT NOW.

Call it what you want to. There's a war on Islam and Muslim people are being slaughtered, terrorized, tortured and murdered by the hundreds of thousands at this very moment. And frankly I find it pretty Orwellian that we can make an issue out of remembering mass atrocities of the past when we haven't even stopped the ones that are happening right now.

[Keltoi]

Eric, thank you.

And to the person who said that Israel sometimes "Plays rough" I will tell you I literally gasped when I read that phrase.

In reply to the person who said they don't believe that the suffering of Muslims is ignored, clearly you do not live in the United States. There are many studies of media bias on this topic -- all you have to do is google it. US media is not just biased. It's not even just weighted in Israel's favor. We simply don't hear a single thing about Israel's crimes and yet we get every little incident from the other direction over and over and over again.

I understand that it is possible to remember the suffering of others... I also think it's good to honor the generosity of people who are willing to do this when their own people are being blown to bits by the hundreds of thousands RIGHT NOW.

Call it what you want to. There's a war on Islam and Muslim people are being slaughtered, terrorized, tortured and murdered by the hundreds of thousands at this very moment. And frankly I find it pretty Orwellian that we can make an issue out of remembering mass atrocities of the past when we haven't even stopped the ones that are happening right now.

There have been plenty of atrocities by both sides in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

As for the U.S. media, I think they reflect the general lack of sympathy many people in the world, not just the U.S., have for the Palestinians. Many of their problems are self-inflicted. I agree there should be more unbiased coverage, but if by "un-biased" you mean pro-Palestinian, that wouldn't be unbiased. There are plenty of bad guys around, on both sides.

[Pygoscelis]

When people talk about holocaust... they would say the victims are 6 millions Jews...

How about the:

Soviet POWs - 3,300,000
Belarusians - 2,230,000
Poles - 1,800,000
Gypsies - 1,500,000
Anti-Hitler Germans - 1,500,000
Serbs - 600,000
Disabled - 400,000
Freemasons - 200,000
Spanish POWs - 16,000
Gays - 15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses - 15,000

There were Muslim victims too among the Gypsies and Serbs.

In fact many Muslims (Albanians, Turks and Bosniaks) risking themselves by helping the Jews to get out from Europe in that time....

Yes!

I mention this every time I see jews trying to monopolize holocaust guilt and get special treatment, and this happens a lot and the ultimate example is the creation of Israel at the expense of those who lived there at the time.

I too would be against holocaust day if it was about Jews only. If you're going to have a National Day of Guilt and Mourning Because We Did So Many Horrible Things in The Past then make it all inclusive and I can see it as a good thing.

[caroline]

There have been plenty of atrocities by both sides in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

As for the U.S. media, I think they reflect the general lack of sympathy many people in the world, not just the U.S., have for the Palestinians. Many of their problems are self-inflicted. I agree there should be more unbiased coverage, but if by "un-biased" you mean pro-Palestinian, that wouldn't be unbiased. There are plenty of bad guys around, on both sides.

That's what I'm talking about. Denial of the war on Islam doesn't even have a name. It's absolutely common place... the prevailing opinion here in the States. But you can go to jail for "holocaust denial" in some parts of the world.

Plain as the nose on your face and yet you don't see it. But, if you did, you'd understand why we're even having this discussion.

I continue to pray for the Muslim people around the world, especially in Palestine and Iraq where they are being slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands even as we speak.

[caroline]

Yes!

I mention this every time I see jews trying to monopolize holocaust guilt and get special treatment, and this happens a lot and the ultimate example is the creation of Israel at the expense of those who lived there at the time.

I too would be against holocaust day if it was about Jews only. If you're going to have a National Day of Guilt and Mourning Because We Did So Many Horrible Things in The Past then make it all inclusive and I can see it as a good thing.

A good book covering this topic: "The Holocaust Industry" by Norman Finkelstein.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis, and thanks for these statistics again'

When people talk about holocaust... they would say the victims are 6 millions Jews...

How about the:

Soviet POWs - 3,300,000
Belarusians - 2,230,000
Poles - 1,800,000
Gypsies - 1,500,000
Anti-Hitler Germans - 1,500,000
Serbs - 600,000
Disabled - 400,000
Freemasons - 200,000
Spanish POWs - 16,000
Gays - 15,000
Jehovah's Witnesses - 15,000

There were Muslim victims too among the Gypsies and Serbs.

In fact many Muslims (Albanians, Turks and Bosniaks) risking themselves by helping the Jews to get out from Europe in that time....

If we are truthfully concerned about genocide and we feel horrified by human suffering and death on a large scale, then maybe we should look at how each one of us contributes to an even greater genocide today.
Thirty thousand people die needlessly every day from grinding poverty and preventable diseases. There is no brake down to say how many of these people are Jews, Muslim, atheist, Christians, they are just desperately poor people

Coffee is often advertised as a luxury product yet the coffee growers get around one penny for every jar of coffee that costs around two pounds fifty. Workers on coffee plantations earn about a dollar a day and live in dire poverty. If we paid just an extra two or three pence a jar to the growers they could pay their workers a living wage.

It is said today there are still 27 million people sold into slavery, many of them children.
Nearly half the world's chocolate is made from cocoa grown in the Cote D'Ivoire, in Africa.
12,000 children have been trafficked into slavery into cocoa farms in Cote D'Ivoire
When we buy chocolate we are being forced to be oppressors ourselves as we have no guarantee that the chocolate we eat is 'slave traffik free'

Find out more and sign the petition at http://www.stopthetraffik.org/chocolatecampaign/

So called civilised multi national companies impose harsh trading terms on the third world, simply that you and I may live in a greater degree of luxury.

About a billion people live on less than a dollar a day.
About half the world population lives on less than two dollars a day.

If you are lucky enough to earn more than fifteen dollars a day that puts you amongst the top ten percent of the richest people on Earth.

For me the most evil statistic I have heard is that the combined wealth of the three richest people is about the same as the combined wealth of the 48 poorest countries.
About a third of the world’s population live in these countries.

In the spirit of praying for a fair and just world

Eric

[north_malaysian]

Yes!

I mention this every time I see jews trying to monopolize holocaust guilt and get special treatment, and this happens a lot and the ultimate example is the creation of Israel at the expense of those who lived there at the time.

I too would be against holocaust day if it was about Jews only.

:clever::clever::clever:

[Keltoi]

That's what I'm talking about. Denial of the war on Islam doesn't even have a name. It's absolutely common place... the prevailing opinion here in the States. But you can go to jail for "holocaust denial" in some parts of the world.

Plain as the nose on your face and yet you don't see it. But, if you did, you'd understand why we're even having this discussion.

I continue to pray for the Muslim people around the world, especially in Palestine and Iraq where they are being slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands even as we speak.

There is no "war on Islam". Islam seems to be at war with itself.

[S_87]

But by remembering the past, do we not have an opportunity to try to not make the same mistakes in the future?

As a German born some 20 years after the end of WWII, the teaching that an atrocity like the Nazi regime must never be allowed to happen again, is very deeply ingrained.
We remember that by not forgetting the past and then looking to the present and the future ...

those same people who lead these silences and reflected on the tragedies of their own countries have gone and destroyed other countries.
for example tony blair, he would have led the one minute silences, but it didnt stop him making a mark in history as a murderer of so many people.

if one wants to truly remember the past it must not be taught in a one day memorial but taught in classrooms etc. a memorial is in this case not sufficient. people need to know exactly what happened then. the details. and that is not seen on a memorial day.

[Cognescenti]

That's what I'm talking about. Denial of the war on Islam doesn't even have a name. It's absolutely common place... the prevailing opinion here in the States. But you can go to jail for "holocaust denial" in some parts of the world.

Plain as the nose on your face and yet you don't see it. But, if you did, you'd understand why we're even having this discussion.

I continue to pray for the Muslim people around the world, especially in Palestine and Iraq where they are being slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands even as we speak.

Before you can accuse someone of "denial of the war on Islam" it seems to me you have the burden of demonstrating its existence first.

How about these questions:

1) When did the War on Islam start?

2) Who is in charge, or if it was an "Allied" effort, where was the equivalent of the Yalta conference?

3) How is it that many Islamic states continue to make tremendous oil revenues right in the middle of the War on Islam? Oil tankers sail right up to these ports, fill up with oil and sail blythely away.

4) How is it the holiest site in Islam is virtually unguarded?

5) How come the Muslim population in the world, as we are told, continues to grow. Are those behind the War on Islam losing? It seems rathe an odd war to me.

6) How come the greatest injustices and killings of Muslims comes from other Muslims?

I could go on, but let's see what you have.

BTW...I think a "Holocost Memorial Day" is PC overkill, but the boycott was politically unwise as well.

[caroline]

Before you can accuse someone of "denial of the war on Islam" it seems to me you have the burden of demonstrating its existence first.

How about these questions:

1) When did the War on Islam start?

Depends on which war you're referring to. The current one probably started with the Balfour declaration and the following ethnic cleansing of Palestine. See "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" Elan Pappe'

2) Who is in charge, or if it was an "Allied" effort, where was the equivalent of the Yalta conference?

Who is in charge? Zionists, neo-conservatives, multi-national corporations and their tool is the media and special interest groups they use to control the US government. See, "The Israel Lobby" John J. Mearcheimer and Stephen M. Walt

3) How is it that many Islamic states continue to make tremendous oil revenues right in the middle of the War on Islam? Oil tankers sail right up to these ports, fill up with oil and sail blythely away.

What War on Islam? Thought you said there wasn't one. Expound. Which oil tankers? Why would all their revenues stop?

4) How is it the holiest site in Islam is virtually unguarded?

Uh... Bush/House of Saud???

5) How come the Muslim population in the world, as we are told, continues to grow. Are those behind the War on Islam losing? It seems rathe an odd war to me.

Not odd at all. The blowback (to use their own doublespeak) has created an increased awareness of Islam and thus increased curiosity. This has caused a lot of people to look into the religion that otherwise never would have. They learn about it and decide to convert.

6) How come the greatest injustices and killings of Muslims comes from other Muslims?

Oh you mean like the 700,000 + Palestinians refugees (the largest refugee group on the planet) living in camps that are invaded and attacked by Israeli soldiers, the 1 billion dollar containment (read Apartheid) wall sealing off Palestinians from the countries water supplies and the only decent agrigultural land left? You mean bulldozing neighborhoods of homes with the families still in them? You mean shooting down children in the street? You mean 700,000 Iraqis dead, slaughtered, tortured, raped, civilian men, women, and children?

You show me one single instance of a Muslim group committing any injustice even close to those. Just one.


And just a few more details: (please don't come back with the lame excuse that these bombings were accidents -- we all know the US military has the technology to aim and drop a bomb just exactly where they want it)

US bombing attacks:

Sultanpur mosque in Jalalabad, Nangarhar -- during evening prayer: 17 killed

Mosque in Kunduz city -- during friday prayer time: 23 killed

Mosque in Qalae Shater, Herat -- cluster bomb during prayer time: 63 killed.

Mosque of Ishaq Sulaiman -- 20 killed

Saqawa mosque in Mashikehel village: 4 killed

Mosque in Ahmani Kilai -- 65 killed

October, 2004 US Soldiers raided seven mosques, ransacking every room in the mosque, breaking down doors and throwing Quran books everywhere. The same scenes were repeated in Samarra, Fallujah and Bahubah.

Reading: "The War on Islam" by Enver Masud, recipient of the Human Rights Foundation Gold Award.

"Hegemony or Survival" Noam Chomsky

"The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" Ilan Pappe

And then, for your viewing pleasure, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQeiyrlTqa4

How DARE you say there is no war on Islam?

[Keltoi]

Caroline, all you have "proven" is the existence of conflict involving Muslims. That does not equate to some global war on Islam. I also find it very farcical that you post supposed mosque attacks by U.S. soldiers and then ask for evidence that any Muslim group has committed any such action. I dare you to do a little search to find out how many suicide bomb attacks have been carried out by Muslims upon other Muslims in the past five years alone.

*just a hint, you will probably need to create another thread just to fit them all in there.

[Cognescenti]

Depends on which war you're referring to. The current one probably started with the Balfour declaration and the following ethnic cleansing of Palestine. See "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" Elan Pappe'

I am a little fuzzy on the Balfour family. Are you referring to one of the dead ones? Since the "ethnic cleansing of Palestine" by evil Zionists has now been going on for over 60 years and the Palestinian population is actually higher than when they started, perhaps they need an industrial strength cleanser?

Zionists, neo-conservatives, multi-national corporations and their tool is the media and special interest groups they use to control the US government. See, "The Israel Lobby" John J. Mearcheimer and Stephen M. Walt

Would this be General Motors or McDonalds? As the term "neo-Conservative" wasn't even invented till at least the 60's, who was in charge before then, the "pre-neocons"? Are we to believe then that Jimmy Carter was under their evil influence? How Sec. of State James Baker (Bush 41) who basically to Begin to go stuff himself? And what of the Freemasons? Surely they have something do with it?

The "Jewish media cabal" thing is so trite and tiresome to be unworthy of response. Hope your tinfoil cap is fitting nicely today.

What War on Islam? Thought you said there wasn't one. Expound. Which oil tankers? Why would all their revenues stop?

Uh... Bush/House of Saud???

Did you see Michael Moore's film at the theater or did you wait for the DVD? As you are likely an anti-captialist as well, I am thinking bootleg copy?

You show me one single instance of a Muslim group committing any injustice even close to those. Just one.

Ummm...Darfur?

Mosque in Qalae Shater, Herat -- cluster bomb during prayer time: 63 killed.

As cluster bombs are area antipersonel weapons (usually) it would be an odd thing to drop on a mosque...but, who am I to quibble. You left out the Samrra mosque, BTW, surely the US or Mossad or the Freemasons had something to do with that?

How DARE you say there is no war on Islam?

I don't know...just call me a "War on Islam Denier" :okay:

[wilberhum]

.................................

How DARE you say there is no war on Islam?

Lets see! First there was the "Race Card". then came the "Gender Card", and now we have the "Religious Card".

Interesting. :uuh:

[Fishman]

:sl:
The 'War on Islam' is just a bogieman that some Muslims resort to believing in when they can't take the fact that it is their fault that the Ummah is how it is today. Believing that everybody is persecuting and conspiring and trying to destroy you somehow makes you feel that you are always in the right, special. It also makes things a whole lot more simple to explain. The truth is that the real beast is not out in the jungle, but inside all of us.
:w:

[wilberhum]

:sl:
The 'War on Islam' is just a bogieman that some Muslims resort to believing in when they can't take the fact that it is their fault that the Ummah is how it is today. Believing that everybody is persecuting and conspiring and trying to destroy you somehow makes you feel that you are always in the right, special. It also makes things a whole lot more simple to explain. The truth is that the real beast is not out in the jungle, but inside all of us.
:w:

Well stated. It is good to see a Muslim without that "Percussion Complex". :shade:

[Fishman]

Well stated. It is good to see a Muslim without that "Percussion Complex". :shade:

:sl:
I used to have it though. I suppose even now I still have it in a way, but it is harmless as I dump excess hate on really evil people who nobody likes, such as Genghis Khan and various other Central Asian warlords that have absolutely no influence on today's world affairs. If somebody said that they wanted to bring back barbarian hordes, you wouldn't think they were an extremist, you would think they were having a laugh!
:w:

[caroline]

Amazing. It's like going into a Judaism forum and finding everybody denying the Holocaust.

But you can be sure THAT won't happen.

Have fun. Just remember that denying these atrocities is what allows them to continue and for that, you will someday answer to God.

[wilberhum]

Amazing. It's like going into a Judaism forum and finding everybody denying the Holocaust.

But you can be sure THAT won't happen.

Have fun. Just remember that denying these atrocities is what allows them to continue and for that, you will someday answer to God.

Hay, if you buy this,

And then, for your viewing pleasure, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQeiyrlTqa4

Then I have a bridge I will sell you. :uuh:

[north_malaysian]

:sl:
The 'War on Islam' is just a bogieman that some Muslims resort to believing in when they can't take the fact that it is their fault that the Ummah is how it is today. Believing that everybody is persecuting and conspiring and trying to destroy you somehow makes you feel that you are always in the right, special. It also makes things a whole lot more simple to explain. The truth is that the real beast is not out in the jungle, but inside all of us.
:w:

:clever::clever::clever::clever::clever:

[Muezzin]

Er... could we get back to the topic please?

[Cognescenti]

Hey..easy on the great Khan. I belong to "The Horde". It's a Genghis Khan recreator club. We dress up like Mongols and ride our horses around local parks on weekends. Right now we are short on horses so we have to take turns. Send me a PM if you are interested. :sunny:

Here is an interesting legacy of Genghis..it seems he is still among us...well at lest the men.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...4_genghis.html

[Fishman]

Hey..easy on the great Khan. I belong to "The Horde". It's a Genghis Khan recreator club. We dress up like Mongols and ride our horses around local parks on weekends. Right now we are short on horses so we have to take turns. Send me a PM if you are interested. :sunny:

Here is an interesting legacy of Genghis..it seems he is still among us...well at lest the men.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...4_genghis.html

:sl:
He was a monster though, just as bad as Hitler. How can anybody admire him?
:w:

[north_malaysian]

How can anybody admire him?
:w:

The Mongolians ...

[Cognescenti]

:sl:
He was a monster though, just as bad as Hitler. How can anybody admire him?
:w:

It was a gag, Fishman. :) The National Geographic article is interesting, though.

North Malasian is right, I think he is something of a hero to nomadic horsemen.

[north_malaysian]

North Malasian is right, I think he is something of a hero to nomadic horsemen.

In fact they preserved his grand-tent (ruling centre) and dedicated a museum for him.

I dont think the Germans/Austrians are doing the same for Hitler.

[Fishman]

In fact they preserved his grand-tent (ruling centre) and dedicated a museum for him.

I dont think the Germans/Austrians are doing the same for Hitler.

:sl:
They want to rebuild their capital on the site of the ruins of the old Mongol Capital...
:w:

[Jayda]

:sl:
He was a monster though, just as bad as Hitler. How can anybody admire him?
:w:

hola

actually that is largely myth... genghis khan was much more sophistocated than history remembers him. he established history's largest multiethnic empire that allowed completely free religious expression, used paper money on a grander scale than ever before, established trade networks still alive today which brought many interesting ideas and items from asia to europe (like pants) and established stable governments... the last descendant of Khan to rule a nation died in the 20th century.

he was also a fair conqueror (by conqueror's standards) he offered cities capitulation, whereby he would pay off their debts, their property and practices would not be interfered with and they would live under the protection and prosper under the trade of his empire. he was always careful to send emissaries that represented the people to whom he was speaking... christians who spoke the local languages in europe, muslims who spoke arabic or turkic langauges in the muslim world...

there is a really good book, 'Khan and the making of the modern world' or something to that effect, that i read a little while ago... it's worth reading, very very interesting!

que Dios te bendiga