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Imaan
12-17-2007, 09:04 PM
Which coutry do you think operates the best democracy? I think South Africa 100%. We are free to do what we like, practice our religion freely as well. I wear full hijaab as well. We have Jews, Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Blacks all living happily together, respecting each other.
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'Abd al-Baari
12-17-2007, 09:23 PM
:sl:

I heard that there is a lot of gun-crime between races in South-Africa, is this true?
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wilberhum
12-17-2007, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by Imaan
Which coutry do you think operates the best democracy? I think South Africa 100%. We are free to do what we like, practice our religion freely as well. I wear full hijaab as well. We have Jews, Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Blacks all living happily together, respecting each other.
Have you ever lived any place besides South Africa?

I see nothing there that could not be said about almost every Democracy in the world.
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Whatsthepoint
12-17-2007, 09:48 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
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Amadeus85
12-17-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Imaan
Which coutry do you think operates the best democracy? I think South Africa 100%. We are free to do what we like, practice our religion freely as well. I wear full hijaab as well. We have Jews, Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Blacks all living happily together, respecting each other.
I don't think that multiculturalism must mean always good democracy.
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Whatsthepoint
12-17-2007, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
I don't think that multiculturalism must mean always good democracy.
Multiculturalism itself does not make a democracy, true, however it is an important part of it. Not all multicultural societies are democratic, yet all democratic countries (whose population includes minorities) are multicultural.
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Amadeus85
12-17-2007, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Multiculturalism itself does not make a democracy, true, however it is an important part of it. Not all multicultural societies are democratic, yet all democratic countries (whose population includes minorities) are multicultural.
In Poland 98% of people are catholics and Poles and we are still a democratic society.
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Keltoi
12-18-2007, 01:41 AM
Multiculturalism can sometimes be the product of democracy, because of immigration.
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 02:10 AM
America is definitely not a democracy, otherwise Al Gore would have been president.

Also democracy can be just as dangerous as a dictatorship. For example sometimes people can vote for an ultra nationalist communal party like what happened in Gujarat when they elected Narendra Modi and BJP which orchestrated a campaign of murder against the Muslim minority. Also in Netherlands where an ultra nationalist party got alot of votes and wants to ban the Holy Quran (God forbid).
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Resigned
12-18-2007, 02:17 AM
Originally Posted by Talha777
America is definitely not a democracy, otherwise Al Gore would have been president.

Also democracy can be just as dangerous as a dictatorship. For example sometimes people can vote for an ultra nationalist communal party like what happened in Gujarat when they elected Narendra Modi and BJP which orchestrated a campaign of murder against the Muslim minority. Also in Netherlands where an ultra nationalist party got alot of votes and wants to ban the Holy Quran (God forbid).
What nonsense.

Democracy is desirable not because it is incapable of generating irresponsible, militaristic, totalitarian regimes, but because it is the only form of self-determination which is capable of avoiding these things. Democracies have the ability to vote the "leader" out of office. Not so with a Mullah-for-life

That individuals have political freedom is a prerequisite for the long-term protection of other freedoms, but it's not a certainty that it will succeed in providing it. People are free to choose to be oppressed, and very frequently do, as the "Palestinians" did, as the Egyptians did.
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Belief_is_Power
12-18-2007, 03:47 AM
South africa is a dump. sorry to sound harsh, but the truth does hurt. Crime is worse then in the U.S.A and the poverty their makes the poverty in the U.S look like luxury. The best democracy has to be in America. You are free to do anything you want as long as it is not violent. And if some one or something infringes on your freedom, you can fight back in the court room. ANYONE CAN!!!! the best thing is that if you dont like a law you can fight to change it. Can you do that in South Africa.........
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Talha777
America is definitely not a democracy, otherwise Al Gore would have been president.

Also democracy can be just as dangerous as a dictatorship. For example sometimes people can vote for an ultra nationalist communal party like what happened in Gujarat when they elected Narendra Modi and BJP which orchestrated a campaign of murder against the Muslim minority. Also in Netherlands where an ultra nationalist party got alot of votes and wants to ban the Holy Quran (God forbid).
Obviously you have no understanding of what a Democracy is.

You seam to have confused it with perfection.
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snakelegs
12-18-2007, 04:24 AM
sometimes i think people confuse elections with democracy.
i'm not sure how democratic it is when only multi-millionaires funded by millions of $ from corporations (who often fund both of the mainstream parties) get to be president....
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
sometimes i think people confuse elections with democracy.
i'm not sure how democratic it is when only multi-millionaires funded by millions of $ from corporations (who often fund both of the mainstream parties) get to be president....
Again Democracy does not equal perfection.
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snakelegs
12-18-2007, 04:41 AM
true.
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Amadeus85
12-18-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
America is definitely not a democracy, otherwise Al Gore would have been president.

Also democracy can be just as dangerous as a dictatorship. For example sometimes people can vote for an ultra nationalist communal party like what happened in Gujarat when they elected Narendra Modi and BJP which orchestrated a campaign of murder against the Muslim minority. Also in Netherlands where an ultra nationalist party got alot of votes and wants to ban the Holy Quran (God forbid).
Or in Palestine where Hamas won the elections.
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crayon
12-18-2007, 04:55 PM
Canada pretty much rocks, doesn't it?
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Isambard
12-18-2007, 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Canada pretty much rocks, doesn't it?
Yes, yes it does.
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Yes, yes it does.
Oh there for a moment I thought she said
"Canada is pretty much rocks, isn't it"? :giggling::giggling::giggling:
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Isambard
12-18-2007, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Oh there for a moment I thought she said
"Canada is pretty much rocks, isn't it"? :giggling::giggling::giggling:
We have snow and leaves as well ;)
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Imaan
12-18-2007, 08:55 PM
Sorry only came back online 2day, thanks for all the replies and opions.
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Imaan
12-18-2007, 09:15 PM
Sorry only came back online 2day, thanks for all the replies and opions. I STILL THINK SOUTH AFRICA IS THE ONLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, I'm not talking about crime and corruption, there aren't any more goverments or presidents in this world who are not corrupt. I am talking about freedom of religion, speech movement etc, Alhumdulillah we are free too do as we like. In South Africa we have many foriegners staying here espiacially from the Middle East, many of them have told me that they came to live here because South Africa is a FREE country. Examples are: Uzbekistan, Morroco, Syria, Nigeria and many more. In Egypt you cannot wear hijaab or a beard, in Saudi you can't express your thoughts openly, in the Netherlands woman cannot wear hijaab and they are considering to ban the Holy Quraan, forget about America you can't even open your mouth properly and you are called a terrorist and put on their blacklist. I am not saying it, their own people are saying it. Go and find out for yourselves, you guys don't seem to know alot about America. South Africa cares for its citizens, many times the United Nations and others suggested laws for our country, but Mr Mbeki always first disscussed with his citizens before passing laws. PROUDLY SOUTH AFRICAN! I''ll be back on saturday to see your' replies until then enjoy your day!
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 09:19 PM
Masha Allah. I hear Islam is spreading rapidly in South Africa as well. Soon insha Allah it will become a muslim country.
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Whatsthepoint
12-18-2007, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Imaan
in the Netherlands woman cannot wear hijaab and they are considering to ban the Holy Quraan
Not true. Women can wear teh hijab. There are some restrictions regarding the burqa though. And they are certainly not considering banning the Quran, those were mere words of a populist nationalist politician whose party's got about 10 MPs out of 150.
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Amadeus85
12-18-2007, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
Masha Allah. I hear Islam is spreading rapidly in South Africa as well. Soon insha Allah it will become a muslim country.
But then the democracy will be ended. :giggling:
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Belief_is_Power
12-18-2007, 10:10 PM
islam is spreading rapidly everywhere and so demcracy will be on the run. If you are muslim democracy does not matter. The only true government is caliphate.
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Resigned
12-18-2007, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Belief_is_Power
islam is spreading rapidly everywhere and so demcracy will be on the run. If you are muslim democracy does not matter. The only true government is caliphate.
Yeah - a "Real Muslim" caliphate under the auspices of Shia Islam.
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Whatsthepoint
12-18-2007, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Belief_is_Power
islam is spreading rapidly everywhere and so demcracy will be on the run. If you are muslim democracy does not matter. The only true government is caliphate.
...for muslims...non muslims have to pay a non-muslim tax, they're discriminated in various ways...
The perfect governemnt treats all its citizens equally regardless of their religion, race, gender, political belief, sexual orientation etc. And it let's them govern "for themselves" by electing their representatives. Then there's also referenda...
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 10:53 PM
...for muslims...non muslims have to pay a non-muslim tax, they're discriminated in various ways...
What's so discriminatory about a tax for God's sake? Everyone pays taxes. Even Muslims are obliged to pay 2.5% of their wealth on annual basis (Zakaat) which non-Muslims are exempt from. If non-Muslims are living in an Islamic state, which is giving them protection and allowing them to practice their religion I think least they could do is expect a jizya tax in return.

The perfect governemnt treats all its citizens equally regardless of their religion, race, gender, political belief, sexual orientation etc. And it let's them govern "for themselves" by electing their representatives. Then there's also referenda...
Tell me where is this "perfect government". Is there any such government today? Even so called secular and liberal France discriminates on religious basis. They allow christian students to wear crosses in public schools (wearing a cross is not a religious obligation) but they strictly forbid Muslim girls from wearing hijab (religious obligation). Where's the justice and perfection in that? Where's the justice and perfection in America where Muslim men from foreign countries have to be registered and give their fingerprints to the government, something which Hindus, buddhists, christians from foreign countries are exempt from. Even look at Canada where it is forbidden for Muslims to put the adhan call to prayer on loudspeaker.

There are some restrictions regarding the burqa though.
Why is there restrictions on burqa in a so called secular, multicultural and liberal country like Netherlands? I'm sure there's no restrictions against dressing like Santa Claus for restrictions for wearing a habit in Netherlands. It just goes to show Muslims are hated and our religion is not respected by our christian enemies.
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Isambard
12-18-2007, 11:28 PM
Funny, you dont talk about Canada. Seeing as you live in Canada I assume its better than anything Islamic no?
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Whatsthepoint
12-18-2007, 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
What's so discriminatory about a tax for God's sake? Everyone pays taxes. Even Muslims are obliged to pay 2.5% of their wealth on annual basis (Zakaat) which non-Muslims are exempt from. If non-Muslims are living in an Islamic state, which is giving them protection and allowing them to practice their religion I think least they could do is expect a jizya tax in return.
Do muslims in the west have to pay a special muslim tax because they're given protection and are allowed to practice their religion? No, they don't.
Tell me where is this "perfect government". Is there any such government today? Even so called secular and liberal France discriminates on religious basis. They allow christian students to wear crosses in public schools (wearing a cross is not a religious obligation) but they strictly forbid Muslim girls from wearing hijab (religious obligation). Where's the justice and perfection in that? Where's the justice and perfection in America where Muslim men from foreign countries have to be registered and give their fingerprints to the government, something which Hindus, buddhists, christians from foreign countries are exempt from. Even look at Canada where it is forbidden for Muslims to put the adhan call to prayer on loudspeaker.
I wouldn't thinks so. Perfect things tend not to exist. It's the same with an islamic state.
All religious symbols are banned in french schools, including crosses. It's fair that all religious symbols are prohibited although I find the prohobition itself neitehr fair nor required. People should be allowed to express their religion freely. France is far from being a liberal, minority-respecting, democratic state.
Fingerprints are taken from citizens of all countries, save Canada and a few Euroepan ones. And how the heck would the border officials know the person visiting is a muslim so they could discriminate them? Do passports state the holders' religion?
As for the adhan call... If the church bells are allowed I wouldn't mind a muslim call. As long as it doesn't violate noise restrictions.
Why is there restrictions on burqa in a so called secular, multicultural and liberal country like Netherlands? I'm sure there's no restrictions against dressing like Santa Claus for restrictions for wearing a habit in Netherlands. It just goes to show Muslims are hated and our religion is not respected by our christian enemies.
There are restrictions on burqa because it poses a threat to security. Anyone can wear a burqa and claim they're a religious muslim lady.
I don't think santa costume is prohibited, however I'm sure this one is
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wilberhum
12-19-2007, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Belief_is_Power
islam is spreading rapidly everywhere and so demcracy will be on the run. If you are muslim democracy does not matter. The only true government is caliphate.
Every group that governs is a true government.

Lord some people twist everything.
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smile
12-19-2007, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by Belief_is_Power
South africa is a dump. sorry to sound harsh, but the truth does hurt. Crime is worse then in the U.S.A and the poverty their makes the poverty in the U.S look like luxury. The best democracy has to be in America. You are free to do anything you want as long as it is not violent. And if some one or something infringes on your freedom, you can fight back in the court room. ANYONE CAN!!!! the best thing is that if you dont like a law you can fight to change it. Can you do that in South Africa.........
Youre saying that mah beautiful country is a dump:raging::raging::raging:
people don't do crime because of the fun of it but because we live in a country of poverty

SA is the best country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nothing beats it
I'm proudly south african
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wilberhum
12-19-2007, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by smile
Youre saying that mah beautiful country is a dump:raging::raging::raging:
people don't do crime because of the fun of it but because we live in a country of poverty

SA is the best country!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nothing beats it
I'm proudly south african
Crime because of poverty. That is the most frequent cause.
But how is it that "SA is the best country" with such high poverty and crime?

Have you ever lived any place else?
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Muezzin
12-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Imaan
Which coutry do you think operates the best democracy?
Couldn't say. I live in Britain, which is very good about religious freedoms, though there have been incursions into civil liberties lately - but it's nothing too bad, on balance. There's freedom of the press for instance, fredom of movement, race hate laws and the judiciary has independence and integrity. On the other hand, there's always room for improvement. The economy seems to be going down the drain what with all this insane inflation, nobody wants to hold a referendum about the EC, not that many people actually turn up to vote, there's a binge drinking sub-culture that nobody seems to want to deal with etc.

Certain areas in Britain are better than others when it comes to things like multiculturalism. Most people in the East Midlands tend to be very open, tolerant and friendly, for example.

I think South Africa 100%. We are free to do what we like, practice our religion freely as well. I wear full hijaab as well. We have Jews, Arabs, Indians, Chinese, Blacks all living happily together, respecting each other.
Excellent. One of my friends is South African. Great guy. I tried to get him to teach me Afrikaan.

Originally Posted by Resigned
What nonsense.

Democracy is desirable not because it is incapable of generating irresponsible, militaristic, totalitarian regimes, but because it is the only form of self-determination which is capable of avoiding these things. Democracies have the ability to vote the "leader" out of office. Not so with a Mullah-for-life
And? Democracies are not perfect and have slid into dictatorships (I don't want to invoke Godwin's law, and mentioning Romans conjures toga imagery...). If you're not saying that they're perfect, and I've misinterpreted your words, I apologise.

That individuals have political freedom is a prerequisite for the long-term protection of other freedoms, but it's not a certainty that it will succeed in providing it. People are free to choose to be oppressed, and very frequently do, as the "Palestinians" did, as the Egyptians did.
But earlier in your post you state democracy is 'incapable of generating irresponsible, militaristic, totalitarian regimes'. Unless I'm misinterpreting your words, which I hope I am, you seem to be saying 'well, yeah, it works when it works, and when it doesn't work, then it wasn't really democracy to begin with'. Which is just circular.

My own standing on such things - democracy is simply a prevalent ideology, with its own advantages and disadvantages. The concept of ideologies are simultaneously one of humanity's greatest strengths and greatest weaknesses, since human beings are the only organisms on this planet that are prepared to kill each other over an idea or belief. Not even an idea or belief that has physically manifested necessarily, but even those in what you might call an embryonic stage. War is like... intellectual abortion.
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Keltoi
12-20-2007, 04:11 PM
Democracy requires an involved populace with a true understanding of democratic princicples. A democracy can turn into a dictatorship overnight if the populace doesn't stay involved and do their duty as citizens. Democracy only stays democracy if the voting populace keep it that way and choose representatives whose intention it is to keep it that way.
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smile
12-20-2007, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Crime because of poverty. That is the most frequent cause.
But how is it that "SA is the best country" with such high poverty and crime?

Have you ever lived any place else?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
why do you keep asking that question:X:X:X

yes i have lived in other places but i still think SA rules besides the poverty and crime
no country is perfect after all
:D:D:D
:raging:
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smile
12-20-2007, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Couldn't say. I live in Britain, which is very good
Excellent. One of my friends is South African. Great guy. I tried to get him to teach me Afrikaan.
.
he he bro it's Afrikaans not Afrikaan
;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D;D
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doodlebug
12-20-2007, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Imaan
In Egypt you cannot wear hijaab or a beard,
Of course you can wear hijaab in Egypt.
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adeeb
12-22-2007, 09:29 AM
indonesia has been a democratic country since many years ago...

it's american democratic, so it's not real democracy and that makes my country worse and worse...

it's true that democracy today is out of islam...
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guyabano
12-22-2007, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
I tried to get him to teach me Afrikaan.
In South Africa, they speak Dutch ! South-Africa was a Dutch Colony
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north_malaysian
12-22-2007, 10:15 AM
I think Mauritius is more democratic than South Africa, and they have low crime rates....
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north_malaysian
12-22-2007, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by adeeb
indonesia has been a democratic country since many years ago.
Indonesian democracy might not be the best in the world.... but at least it's 1,000 time more democratic than Malaysia.
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Muezzin
12-22-2007, 03:04 PM
How in particular is Malaysia undemocratic?

Originally Posted by guyabano
In South Africa, they speak Dutch ! South-Africa was a Dutch Colony
I know. But my South African friend can speak Afrikaans. Maybe he knows Dutch too.
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Whatsthepoint
12-22-2007, 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
In South Africa, they speak Dutch ! South-Africa was a Dutch Colony
They don't speak Dutch. They might have spoken Dutch in the past but it has evolved into Afrikaans since then.
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