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syed saboor
12-25-2007, 11:03 PM
I just wanted to vent my frustration about what is going on in Islam nowadays. I am very conservative, but unfortunately many "degenerates," who call themselves Muslims are saying that homosexualtiy and lesbianism is allowable in Islam and women don't have to wear the hijab anymore. What is going on? It makes me sick. I go the Barnes and Noble and I see all of this garbage all the time. We have this woman among Islamic circles in America, Asma Gull Hassan, who advocates feminism in Islam, among Muslim women. She says that many of the interpretations of verses in the Koran are cultural,
which denigrate women.
Let me tell you something, men and women are different. They are not the same. Their was a book called "Brain Sex," which did away with these assumptions of men's and women's smeness. In addition, the most prominent feminists in America have been Jews, which is no coincidence.
But enough about that. My point is that I am fed up with Westernized Muslims trying to make Islam palatible to mass American public by encouraging dating and other un-Islamic behavior. Remember, Chrisitianity became the dominant religion of the Roman Empire because of the fact that it allowed itself to blend into other societies and and make their foreign practices their own. Even now, this spirit of "compatability" is permeating the churches in the sense that many Churches have gay and lesbian pastors and priests. Let's hope, Islam does not succumb to that, because I was a Muslim who became a Christian and who came back to Islam, because of all the hypocrisy in the Church regarding morality.
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czgibson
12-25-2007, 11:11 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
I just wanted to vent my frustration about what is going on in Islam nowadays. I am very conservative, but unfortunately many "degenerates," who call themselves Muslims are saying that homosexualtiy and lesbianism is allowable in Islam and women don't have to wear the hijab anymore. What is going on? It makes me sick.
You mean you just wanted to vent your homophobia?

In addition, the most prominent feminists in America have been Jews, which is no coincidence.
Or perhaps it was your hatred of the Jews?

I can see you're a live wire, and I'm sure you'll be lots of fun on the forum. Welcome. :)

Peace
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syed saboor
12-25-2007, 11:14 PM
Actually, I wanted to do just both, and thank you for asking. It is always a pleasure to chat.
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jzcasejz
12-25-2007, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
You mean you just wanted to vent your homophobia?
So what, someone is allowed to deviate from the teachings of the Qur'an and say homosexuality is allowed in Islaam? Keyword being: Islaam!

This Brother posted a perfectly reasonable thread against "Muslims" altering the religion and you label it as hatred? I guess according to you we should all as Muslims just sit down and let the alterations be made to this religion freely.
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czgibson
12-25-2007, 11:20 PM
Greetings,

I think you could be right about some of the things you say. Not in terms of your hatreds - personally, I'm in the fortunate position of not hating anyone.

Despite perhaps being an ill-informed kaffir I would think that what Islam forbids has to stay forbidden - there's such an entrenched opposition to bida, so, really Muslims have to obey the rules set down in a very different society to any currently extant. It's as simple as that, isn't it?

Peace
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czgibson
12-25-2007, 11:23 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by jzcasejz
So what, someone is allowed to deviate from the teachings of the Qur'an and say homosexuality is allowed in Islaam? Keyword being: Islaam!
I'm not suggesting that for a moment.

This Brother posted a perfectly reasonable thread against "Muslims" altering the religion and you label it as hatred?
Hating certain groups of people is an intrinsic part of Islam, is it not?

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-25-2007, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson

Hating certain groups of people is an intrinsic part of Islam, is it not?

Peace
Hating the act, is different than hating a group of people.. although, I'd be curious how you personally feel about pederasts? not much different from homophilia save the age of one of the participants-- and who is to say that a young altar boy of 13 with raging hormones had no say in the matter?
I'd be curious as how you feel about zoophilism, or other acts of sexual deviance? or is it an intrinsic part of atheism to love all that is degenerate?

cheers!
Reply

czgibson
12-25-2007, 11:37 PM
Greetings,

Right on cue, PA. Good to see you again. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Hating the act, is different than hating a group of people.. although, I'd be curious how you personally feel about pederasts?
It's a horrible activity, but I certainly don't hate people who do it. I pity them, really. If me hating them made it less likely that they would do it, then perhaps I might.

I'd be curious as how you feel about zoophilism, or other acts of sexual deviance?
The same way. Hating people achieves nothing.

or is it an intrinsic part of atheism to love all that is degenerate?
Atheism is a belief based on a single metaphysical proposition: "there is no god."

As you well know.

Peace
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syed saboor
12-25-2007, 11:39 PM
Listen to me everybody. Wrong is wrong and right is right. All-mighty Allah made man and woman and not man and man and woman and woman estakfurallah. If we had no moral precepts do abide by, we would be doing anything we wanted. In Dostoyevsky's book, "The Brothers Karamazov," there was a quote: "without God everything is possible."
Some of you on this forum agree with what I have to say and I commend you for not being afraid to say what you want, especially in this day of political correctedness. The Quran being our guide, lays out the principle we believe in one God. You cannot abrogate that principle. Unfortunately, because of Westernization, Hollywood, MTV (here is my anti-semitism again, the founder of MTV was a Jew named Murray Rothstein, a.k.a., Summer Redstone), and a host of immoral Western influences we Muslims have been led astray.
Now it is time to come back to traditional Islam and stop following the ways of Kufr.
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جوري
12-25-2007, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Right on cue, PA. Good to see you again. :)
Thanks, I won't be here much longer during the upcoming months but when opportunity knocks.. you know how it is?



It's a horrible activity, but I certainly don't hate people who do it. I pity them, really. If me hating them made it less likely that they would do it, then perhaps I might.
How is that different from my opening sentence? hating the act not the individual? I am however, glad to get you to agree that IT IS A HORRIBLE ACTIVITY, that too is how we view homosexuality! Perhaps 'society' has ingrained in you that one is a horrible activity while the other is an alternate life style? Islam defines for us morality not the 20th-21st century diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorder which by the way in the seventies had homosexuality listed right there along with other 'horrible activities'


The same way. Hating people achieves nothing.
Agreed!


Atheism is a belief based on a single metaphysical proposition: "there is no god."
As you well know.
godlessness is a doctrine all its own, so tells us the dictionary!
Not believing comes with its own set of rules and ideologies, and can be quite dogmatic as we have seen from such 'achievers' as dawkin or even our own private trolls, zoro et al. thus leading me to conclude, it is a religion all its own with disciples ranging from the partisans to the insouciants, no different than any other organized religion or ideology!
If you hang around here long enough, you'll see atheists repeating their tenets like a daily prayer and almost in unison on every thread that calls to their attention!

atheist or not = still human= still bound by the human condition!


cheers!
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czgibson
12-26-2007, 12:03 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Thanks, I won't be here much longer during the upcoming months but when opportunity knocks.. you know how it is?
As Philip Larkin wrote: 'Why should I let the toad work / Squat on my life?'

How is that different from my opening sentence? hating the act not the individual?
What you've expressed is the ideal. It's obvious, though, that many Muslims actually hate the individuals who commit these acts. Such as our friendly original poster.

I am however, glad to get you to agree that IT IS A HORRIBLE ACTIVITY, that too is how we view homosexuality!
Fair enough, we disagree.

Perhaps 'society' has ingrained in you that one is a horrible activity while the other is an alternate life style?
My judgement is based on how much harm an activity causes. I believe that child abuse causes harm, while homosexuality does not.

godlessness is a doctrine all its own, so tells us the dictionary!
Eh?

Not believing comes with its own set of rules and ideologies,
It emphatically does not. All sorts of possibilities are thrown up by the belief that there is no god.

If you hang around here long enough, you'll see atheists repeating their tenets like a daily prayer and almost in unison on every thread that calls to their attention!
[Quick cheap jab: I've been here longer than you...]

I suppose atheists repeat their beliefs because they believe they are true, just like people of any other faith-position.

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-26-2007, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


As Philip Larkin wrote: 'Why should I let the toad work / Squat on my life?'
You and your larkin matter very little in my life..

What you've expressed is the ideal. It's obvious, though, that many Muslims actually hate the individuals who commit these acts. Such as our friendly original poster.
I didn't know hate crimes against homos were committed mostly by Muslims? Thanks for teaching me.. funny the other day here in the subways, it was a Muslim that jumped to the aid of a bunch of Jewish kids being assulted for being cheeky!

My judgement is based on how much harm an activity causes. I believe that child abuse causes harm, while homosexuality does not.
13 isn't considered a child least of which physiologically, I have personally assisted in the delivery of a 12 year old female..some states here in the U.S allow you to be emancipated if you are 12 and pregnant but not after you become a mother if you are still considered 'under age'... strange world with unusual laws.. I suspect they'll be subject to change at whim. This is harmful, no no it isn't, this isn't! Again Islam defines our morality not your judgement!



Eh?
Noun: atheism 'eythee`izum
The doctrine or belief that there is no God
- godlessness

really for a man whose livlihood is teaching english, surely you can look up the definition of a word?


It emphatically does not. All sorts of possibilities are thrown up by the belief that there is no god.
Yes the possibilities are quite organized and have the same reponses, much like a religious doctrine!


[Quick cheap jab: I've been here longer than you...]

I suppose atheists repeat their beliefs because they believe they are true, just like people of any other faith-position.
great.. at least we can get an honest assessment out of you!

cheers
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Isambard
12-26-2007, 12:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
godlessness is a doctrine all its own, so tells us the dictionary!

No its not.

Not believing comes with its own set of rules and ideologies, and can be quite dogmatic as we have seen from such 'achievers' as dawkin or even our own private trolls, zoro et al.

No it doesnt.

thus leading me to conclude, it is a religion all its own with disciples ranging from the partisans to the insouciants, no different than any other organized religion or ideology!

Perhaps you should give your definition of "religion" as all dictionary definitions on religion disagrees with your arguement

If you hang around here long enough, you'll see atheists repeating their tenets like a daily prayer and almost in unison on every thread that calls to their attention!

You mean correcting you? Well of course. Spreading ignorance is typically seen as a bad thing
In relation to the topic, Im curious about one thing. How is hating the "acts" perfectly okay in your book, yet when someone hates Islam for being/promoting 'evil', the person is seen as a prejudice islamaphobe?
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جوري
12-26-2007, 12:29 AM
here is the article by the way which was on the local news!


Hate Crime on the NYC Subway
view links
Submitted by mole333 on 15 December 2007 - 1:22pm.
anti-Semitism | Christian extremists | subway
RatingReporting on this a bit late...this happened a week ago, but slipped my mind until reminded of it by an email from the Anti-Defamation League

According to the FBI, hate crimes are on the rise again, up nearly 8% in 2006. This month a particularly nasty group of bigots in New York City attacked four Jews on the subway because those Jews had the unmittigated NERVE to say "Happy Hanukkah."

From Haaretz:

On [December 7th], Four Jewish subway riders who wished other people Happy Hanukkah were pelted with anti-Semitic remarks before being beaten, New York police and prosecutors said.

The incident was being investigated as a possible hate crime.

The four were on a train in Manhattan on Friday night, during the eight-day Jewish Festival of Lights, when they were approached by a group of 10 people who offered holiday greetings. The victims responded, Happy Hanukkah and were assaulted by the larger group, police said Tuesday.

Police caught up with the train in Brooklyn and arrested eight men and two women, aged 19 and 20. They were arraigned Saturday on charges of assault, menacing, riot, harassment and disorderly conduct, the Brooklyn district attorney's office said.

The case was being handled by the office's civil rights bureau, and charges could be upgraded to hate crimes, prosecutors said. The two men and two women who were attacked had bruises and welts on their faces and heads but were not hospitalized, police said.

One of the men charged, Joseph Jirovec, pleaded guilty last year to attempted robbery as a hate crime and was awaiting sentencing, prosecutors said. Jirovec, who is white, was part of a group that yelled racial epithets and assaulted two black teenagers in Brooklyn, prosecutors said.

Clearly, Joseph Jirovec is one of New York's model citizens. Those Jews should have just kept their mouths shut and kept their ****ed Hanukkah to themselves. Can't have jews feeling comfortable being Jewish in PUBLIC, can we?

Not sure why, but one aspect of this disgusting event that has been under reported is that a Muslim New Yorker jumped to the defense of the Jews being attacked by the bigots. I think this deserves mention since it is in sharp contrast to the intolerance shown by the gang of bigots. From International CNN (which is MUCH better than American CNN!):

Muslim man jumped to the aid of three Jewish subway riders after they were attacked by a group of young people who objected to one of the Jews saying "Happy Hanukkah," a spokeswoman for the three said Wednesday.

[The] altercation on the Q train began when somebody yelled out "Merry Christmas," to which rider Walter Adler responded, "Happy Hanukkah," said Toba Hellerstein...

One member of the group allegedly yelled, "Oh, Hanukkah. That's the day that the Jews killed Jesus," she said.

[EDITOR'S NOTE: This shows the stupidity of these bigots who clearly have NO IDEA what Hanukkah really is. Hanukkah celebrates the defeat of Syrian Greeks by the Jews, an event that occurred well before Jesus was even born. Way to go bigot! Show the world how dumb you are!]

When Adler tried to intercede, a male member of the group punched him, she said.

Another passenger, Hassan Askari -- a Muslim student from Bangladesh -- came to Adler's aid, and the group began physically and verbally assaulting him, Hellerstein said.

"A Muslim-American saved us when our own people were on the train and didn't do anything," Adler said.

http://www.dailygotham.com/blog/mole...the_nyc_subway
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The_Prince
12-26-2007, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
In relation to the topic, Im curious about one thing. How is hating the "acts" perfectly okay in your book, yet when someone hates Islam for being/promoting 'evil', the person is seen as a prejudice islamaphobe?
well people who hate Islam are by nature Islamophobes, erm thats what the term is for....they dont want to be near Islam or Muslims, hence the the term Islamophobia, such a name isnt an insult, its a normal fact.....

thats why they ban hijabs, make Muslims go through hell before getting a mosque permit and on and on....

so how is calling someone who hates Islam and Islamphobe a bad label when its an actual fact? hmmmmm.....
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Isambard
12-26-2007, 12:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
well people who hate Islam are by nature Islamophobes, erm thats what the term is for....they dont want to be near Islam or Muslims, hence the the term Islamophobia, such a name isnt an insult, its a normal fact.....

thats why they ban hijabs, make Muslims go through hell before getting a mosque permit and on and on....

so how is calling someone who hates Islam and Islamphobe a bad label when its an actual fact? hmmmmm.....
I said seen as, meaning in the perception of others. If folks here are okay to be homophobes, then why isnt it okay to be an Islamaphobe? I mean they dont hate you per-say, they merely hate the 'act':okay:
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جوري
12-26-2007, 12:37 AM
Didn't I ask you to take a hike and particpate only after pubertal changes have taken effect?

In relation to the topic, Im curious about one thing. How is hating the "acts" perfectly okay in your book, yet when someone hates Islam for being/promoting 'evil', the person is seen as a prejudice islamaphobe?
Where have I complained that anyone is prejudiced or Islamophobic?..

I think those who know me long enough on this forum, acknowledge that I couldn't give a flying fig who hates or loves Islam. Go mature your thoughts by way of fine wine instead of rotted cheese so I can make some sense of your braying which I can only liken to the characteristics of donkeys!


cheers!
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Isambard
12-26-2007, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Didn't I ask you to take a hike and particpate only after pubertal changes have taken effect?

Venomous as as always

Where have I complained that anyone is prejudiced or Islamophobic?..

Where did I say you complained? Its meant as a general question for all the muslim members of IF.

I think those who know me long enough on this forum, acknowledge that I couldn't give a flying fig who hates or loves Islam.

Thats nice

Go mature your thoughts by way of fine wine instead of rotted cheese so I can make some sense of your braying which I can only liken to the characteristics of donkeys!
Now now PA, play nice. Dont make me start quoting rule violations:skeleton:
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جوري
12-26-2007, 12:48 AM
Venomous as as always
Eh, I do what I can...


Where did I you complained? Its meant as a general question for all the muslim members of IF.
I am afraid that is a little unintelligible, and I pride myself of being able decrypt even morse code... if another member, Muslim or otherwise can understand this by all means take the stage!

Thats nice
:coolious:


Now now PA, play nice. Dont make me start quoting rule violations
Oh thank God for your presence here.. the army of leningrad can learn a thing or two from your observance of forum rules :coolious:


cheers!
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The_Prince
12-26-2007, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
I said seen as, meaning in the perception of others. If folks here are okay to be homophobes, then why isnt it okay to be an Islamaphobe? I mean they dont hate you per-say, they merely hate the 'act':okay:
be an Islamphobe, who stops you? theres full of them in the west, i dont see anyone telling them its disallowed, Islamophobes though have decieved themselves into thinking that being one is disallowed when in reality its not....................

and most Islamophobes ive seen hate the person, not the act alone or belief. :)
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czgibson
12-26-2007, 12:51 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You and your larkin matter very little in my life..
Well thanks. I was trying to be sympathetic there. Never mind.

I didn't know hate crimes against homos were committed mostly by Muslims?
And where did I say that? Don't tell me you're building yet another straw man for me for Christmas?

Thanks for teaching me.. funny the other day here in the subways, it was a Muslim that jumped to the aid of a bunch of Jewish kids being assulted for being cheeky!
Well done them. That's wonderful news. It doesn't change the fact that many Muslims actively and openly hate different groups of people, and say their religion gives them justification for doing so.

13 isn't considered a child
Apart from in most legal systems around the world. I don't see the relevance of this anyway.

least of which physiologically, I have personally assisted in the delivery of a 12 year old female
Well done you!

What are you getting at here?

Again Islam defines our morality not your judgement!
Of course. I'm simply pointing out what many would consider to be the rational alternative. I don't expect you to agree with me.

Noun: atheism 'eythee`izum
The doctrine or belief that there is no God
- godlessness

really for a man whose livlihood is teaching english, surely you can look up the definition of a word?
Of course, but doing so doesn't help your argument. A doctrine can consist of a single proposition, as atheism does. Check here if you don't believe me.

Yes the possibilities are quite organized and have the same reponses, much like a religious doctrine!
That's your observation, which probably depends on how you understand the word 'religion'. Different dictionaries differ on this, as it's a notoriously difficult thing to define.

great.. at least we can get an honest assessment out of you!
I'm not sure what that's meant to mean, but thank you anyway.

Peace
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جوري
12-26-2007, 01:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Well thanks. I was trying to be sympathetic there. Never mind.
I suppose it is one of those things you throw out there, where the reader is left to decipher what s/he may?!
Tone of voice and body language were missing, you'll forgive me, it sounded errr read a little dry!


And where did I say that? Don't tell me you're building yet another straw man for me for Christmas?
Go read what you wrote, there is no sense in changing what you meant this far along in the 'debate'


Well done them. That's wonderful news. It doesn't change the fact that many Muslims actively and openly hate different groups of people, and say their religion gives them justification for doing so.
And again I wonder what wonderful statistical experimental trial you have run to conclude what you have of 'many muslims' .


Apart from in most legal systems around the world. I don't see the relevance of this anyway.
its relevance falls in what you deem 'harmful due to age' but actually isn't!



Well done you!
seeking your approval gives a 50% boost to my ego ^o)
What are you getting at here?
read my reply two sentences ago!

Of course. I'm simply pointing out what many would consider to be the rational alternative. I don't expect you to agree with me.
A rational alternative to what exactly? opinions aren't a rational alternative!



Of course, but doing so doesn't help your argument. A doctrine can consist of a single proposition, as atheism does. Check here if you don't believe me.
So many dictionaries so little time. I think yours just kicked the a$$ of the one I used!

That's your observation, which probably depends on how you understand the word 'religion'. Different dictionaries differ on this, as it's a notoriously difficult thing to define.
It is my observation based exclusively on atheism as an entity and in its organizational sense, not in its lack of belief in a divine, but based on the tenets that many of its members peddle with zeal!


cheers!
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czgibson
12-26-2007, 01:22 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I suppose it is one of those things you throw out there, where the reader is left to decipher what s/he may?!
Tone of voice and body language were missing, you'll forgive me, it sounded errr read a little dry!
I aim to encourage thinking. Sorry you didn't get it.

Go read what you wrote, there is no sense in changing what you meant this far along in the 'debate'
Done.

Did I state that most hate crimes against gay people are committed by Muslims? No.

Did I imply this? No.

Do I believe this? No.

You need to stop making things up, I think.

And again I wonder what wonderful statistical experimental trial you have run to conclude what you have of 'many muslims' .
My test group would be the people I see on this forum, plus the 200 or so Muslims I've met and / or taught in real life. And, let's not forget, our original poster, who does little to conceal their hatred.

its relevance falls in what you deem 'harmful due to age' but actually isn't!
I don't remember mentioning age. You really shouldn't create straw men in a debate, as I'm sure has been pointed out to you many times before.

A rational alternative to what exactly?
A rational alternative to Islam, obviously.

opinions aren't a rational alternative!
Opinions based on a thorough study of ethics are about as rational as any any statement on ethics can be. Certainly far more rational than accepting an authority statement on no evidence.

So many dictionaries so little time. I think yours just kicked the a$$ of the one I used!
I realise English isn't your first language, so you can certainly be forgiven for slips like that.

It is my observation based exclusively on atheism as an entity and in its organizational sense, not in its lack of belief in a divine, but based on the tenets that many of its members peddle with zeal!
Is atheism organised? That's news to me.

What tenets? There is only one exclusively atheist tenet, and you know exactly what it is.

Zealous atheists do exist, though, of course. We can all get a bit zealous from time to time, whatever we believe. It's because we all think we have the truth, and it's a human weakness to want to be right all the time.

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-26-2007, 01:57 AM
[QUOTE=czgibson;887979]
Greetings,
I aim to encourage thinking. Sorry you didn't get it.

Done.
it is disappointing indeed to find you a failure on many different facets!

Did I state that most hate crimes against gay people are committed by Muslims? No.

Did I imply this? No.

Do I believe this? No.

You need to stop making things up, I think.
what are your objections then by people hating 'homosexuality'.. hate in and of itself is a useless emotion unless one acts on it... Thus, I fail to see whether or not an individual a 'muslim' hates the act or the 'acting upon' is of any significance save what it denotes later down the line?


My test group would be the people I see on this forum, plus the 200 or so Muslims I've met and / or taught in real life. And, let's not forget, our original poster, who does little to conceal their hatred.
I am afraid one lonely man and his sample mean doesn't give much reliability--no confidence interval for anyone logical/rational human being to endorse or stand by!


I don't remember mentioning age. You really shouldn't create straw men in a debate, as I'm sure has been pointed out to you many times before.
let me refresh you then,
My judgement is based on how much harm an activity causes. I believe that child abuse causes harm, while homosexuality does not.
I assume that you go by the societal definition of a 'child' which deems a 12 year old a minor a child, and I have already mentioned to you cases where not only do 'children' consent but are in fact emancipated for acts you would otherwise deem harmful, you'd imprison some pederast priest for sodomy that a 13 year old might have consented to, leaving me very confused as to how you (an atheist defines morality) and fights for new laws with such zeal-- why is it ok by society's definition for a pederast to be imprisoned and shunned while a homosexual protected under civil liberties act?


A rational alternative to Islam, obviously.
I haven't seen a rational alternative to Islam, obviously!



Opinions based on a thorough study of ethics are about as rational as any any statement on ethics can be. Certainly far more rational than accepting an authority statement on no evidence.
Where is the study of ethics you ran? I think you are just bored and want to take us along for the ride?


I realise English isn't your first language, so you can certainly be forgiven for slips like that.
& What a shame for English to be your first language and your livlihood and practically all your posts run along the lines of drunkard's confabulation!


Is atheism organised? That's news to me.
You should read more by your fellow 'humanists' zoro, dawkin et al.

What tenets? There is only one exclusively atheist tenet, and you know exactly what it is.
what is it? the instant gratification, satisfying the desires of your lower self, and publically promoting it under the guise of rational thought?

Zealous atheists do exist, though, of course. We can all get a bit zealous from time to time, whatever we believe. It's because we all think we have the truth, and it's a human weakness to want to be right all the time.
Peace
A zealous wouldn't exist if there weren't a doctrine a 'philosophical system' for him/her to believe in!

I hope we can stop wasting each other' time, unless of course you really missed me and starved for some useless debates?

cheers...
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Isambard
12-26-2007, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am afraid that is a little unintelligible, and I pride myself of being able decrypt even morse code... if another member, Muslim or otherwise can understand this by all means take the stage!

Sorry about that. Forgot to put "say" in my sentence. Ive corrected that incase anyone else has problems understanding a sentence when a two letter word is accidently omitted.

Oh thank God for your presence here.. the army of leningrad can learn a thing or two from your observance of forum rules
Just trying to hlp out the mods. Lordy knows they have a tough enough job as it is.:statisfie
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czgibson
12-26-2007, 02:12 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I hope we can stop wasting each other' time, unless of course you really missed me and starved for some useless debates?
The truth is that I continue to be amazed at how rude and irrational one person can be. Sorry, PA, but you're one in a million - your posts are just hilarious!

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-26-2007, 02:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


The truth is that I continue to be amazed at how rude and irrational one person can be. Sorry, PA, but you're one in a million - your posts are just hilarious!

Peace
Feelings I have always found to be mutual sob7an Allah. I am glad we can afford you some amusement on your day off though, I wish I can say on my part it was time well spent.

And, I have always fancied myself one in six billion. A true unique creation of Allah SWT distinguished from all others, as are all of his creations... Although, I can understand the woes of an atheist having a difficult time reconciling the difference between himself and a proglottid.. you work on that while we continue to be Muslim insha'Allah!

cheers!
Reply

Amadeus85
12-26-2007, 11:43 AM
I dont think that 3 major monotheistic religions hate gays and lesbians, but all 3 monotheistic religions condemnd homosexual actions as not natural and sinful.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
12-27-2007, 01:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I dont think that 3 major monotheistic religions hate gays and lesbians, but all 3 monotheistic religions condemnd homosexual actions as not natural and sinful.
Not all Christian churches condemn homosexuality. Nor do all branches of Judaism/Islam. I don't think their stance is compliant with the books they believe in, but nevertheless...
Christians say we are to hate the sin not the sinners. I don't know what's the islamic/jewish ruling on this matter.
Reply

czgibson
12-27-2007, 01:33 PM
Greetings,

Some religious people use their religion to justify hating different groups of people. Of course, the ideal is to hate the sin and love the sinner, but it's amazing how often that isn't adhered to in practice.

Take a look at these nutters, for example. They think they are good Christians:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Peace
Reply

syed saboor
12-27-2007, 01:58 PM
Let's just a theocratic Islamic state, and we will all be happy. Finally, as a heterosexual Muslim man I will be able to live in peace.
Reply

Gator
12-27-2007, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Not sure why, but one aspect of this disgusting event that has been under reported is that a Muslim New Yorker jumped to the defense of the Jews being attacked by the bigots. I think this deserves mention since it is in sharp contrast to the intolerance shown by the gang of bigots. From International CNN (which is MUCH better than American CNN!):
Hey PA, Just for the record, this was highly covered in the States. Don't know why it would be downplayed in Britian (if that's where you are).

Thanks.

(Thread Link - http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...y-beating.html)
Reply

czgibson
12-27-2007, 02:23 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
Let's just a theocratic Islamic state, and we will all be happy.
I think it would be great if a state existed which everyone agreed was fully Islamic. I would rather stick pins in my eyes than live in it, though.

Peace
Reply

Amadeus85
12-27-2007, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not all Christian churches condemn homosexuality. Nor do all branches of Judaism/Islam. I don't think their stance is compliant with the books they believe in, but nevertheless...
Christians say we are to hate the sin not the sinners. I don't know what's the islamic/jewish ruling on this matter.
Ok so i will say that all those christian churches and judaistic branches which treat Bible seriously condemn homosexual acts, not to mention legalizing adoptions of kids for gays and lesbians.
Reply

Gator
12-27-2007, 02:44 PM
OK, at this point I have to ask a question for everyone who condemns homosexuality.

Do you feel it in your heart that homosexuality is wrong or are you simply basing it on you religious teachings?

Thanks.
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Whatsthepoint
12-27-2007, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Ok so i will say that all those christian churches and judaistic branches which treat Bible seriously condemn homosexual acts, not to mention legalizing adoptions of kids for gays and lesbians.
I agree. One doesn't have to be a Bible scholar to know it's a rather conservative peace of literature.
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Amadeus85
12-27-2007, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
OK, at this point I have to ask a question for everyone who condemns homosexuality.

Do you feel it in your heart that homosexuality is wrong or are you simply basing it on you religious teachings?

Thanks.
Well, forgetting for a moment what Catholic Church says about it, me as an average young man must say that man was created to have physical love with woman. So two men having physical love is out of norm. I mean, it shouldnt lead people to prision, but it shouldnt be praised as an alernative and wonderful way of life (since we know from biology and human anathomy that gay sex is damaging for health). And two gays (or lesbians) adopting child is completely shocking for me.
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جوري
12-27-2007, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
OK, at this point I have to ask a question for everyone who condemns homosexuality.

Do you feel it in your heart that homosexuality is wrong or are you simply basing it on you religious teachings?

Thanks.
peace Gator

As an individual irregardless of religion, I know that homosexuality is an act of sexual deviance, and I find no difference between it and the afore mentioned acts of sexual deviance, the state makes some of those acts punishable by law, yet grants civil liberties to others (homophillia), I suppose the state defines for some where to draw the line, that is not satisfactory to me.

I have personally no problems with homosexuals so long as they don't flaunt it in everyone's face. I simply don't want to know what you do in your bedroom, to define yourself as a homo, is to bring your sexuality front and center stage.

Now that said, I don't think it ok to hammer completely deviant acts as normal and for the rest of us to get used to it, in the form of TV shows or books for children. I have actually posted stats from uptodate somewhere on this forum of how much sex and violence teens encounter on TV and how it affects them. If you think Madonna and spears kissing on public TV has no impact on young impressionable teens, think again.. It does, and even if you censor what they watch, they will get you in school with books like my two moms. ... maybe a few decades down the line it will be my plastinated dead uncle, or father phil and little John.. or the two brothers.. you see someone argued in a German court recently about an incestuous relationship between brother and sister which yielded some children with 'who are we to define a family unit?'

There was a necrophiliac in NJ not so long ago, who was captured by the cops, I don't know if they have referred him to a psych. ward or if he is just to do time for it. I do believe that he has an attraction to deceased people.. I also believe that pederasts hold an attraction to the boys they engage sexually. Can they help it? I think the same way you or anyone can help not act on a lustful attraction to a random person they have met or work with and develop strong feeling for so can they. There is a difference between love and lust. You can perfectly love someone and not jump in bed with them agreed?

Homosexuals conjure up very unpleasent images in ones mind, well my mind anyhow sometimes to the point of sickness.. this isn't an ideaology for the drumbeaters who make the farcical comparison between religion and sex. This is a guy bending for another over some chair. You can't honestly expect that people should find that acceptable just because it is en vogue. And that is really what a homosexual is by definition, Someone who practices homosexuality, I don't see room for anything else to be a topic of discussion or a misunderstanding or need for tolerance. Do you go around advertising you are a hetrosexual? That automatically reduces you to a sexual act. I see no other why to think of homosexuals other than by having an image of a lewed sexual act!

Lastly given that religion defines morality for me, makes the act all the more repugnant. If you love Goodness, then you'll refrain from grazing in fields that are questionable. yielding in to the lusts of the lower self would surely fall under that category!

cheers
Reply

Amadeus85
12-27-2007, 10:25 PM
But of course i forgot to add that any acts of violence against homosexuals only because they are homosexuals shouldn't happen. I hope that it's clear. Not to mention killing gays or lesbians only for their sexual behaviour which is simple cruelty and murder for me.
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BlackMamba
12-27-2007, 11:39 PM
What Muslims allow homosexuality?! They then cannot call themselves Muslims. This is the punishment for them.
"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; (The Noble Quran, 5:33)"
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Gator
12-28-2007, 02:10 PM
A85 & PA, thanks for the replies.

u2 syed.
Reply

syed saboor
12-28-2007, 02:45 PM
On the question of homosexuality being wrong for religious reasons or for personal reasons. I would say it is wrong for both. Even hardcore atheist would conclude that morality is inate, to a certain degree. As human beings, we have the precognition, that certain acts are wrong no matter what relgion dictates. For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do, is wrong for whatever reason. It doesn't a rocket scientist or a mullah to determine that abusing young children is wrong. We just know it is wrong.
By the same token, homosexuality is contrary to the natural law. It does not produce children. It harms the body. It's interesting to note, even in the former Communist Soviet Union, same-sex relations were punished by terms in jail. One would ask, why would atheist communists bother to punish same-sex relations, given the fact they had no religion to follow, and the answer is simple, even in their common sense, they realized it is wrong. Case closed.
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wilberhum
12-28-2007, 07:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
On the question of homosexuality being wrong for religious reasons or for personal reasons. I would say it is wrong for both. Even hardcore atheist would conclude that morality is inate, to a certain degree. As human beings, we have the precognition, that certain acts are wrong no matter what relgion dictates. For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do, is wrong for whatever reason. It doesn't a rocket scientist or a mullah to determine that abusing young children is wrong. We just know it is wrong.
By the same token, homosexuality is contrary to the natural law. It does not produce children. It harms the body. It's interesting to note, even in the former Communist Soviet Union, same-sex relations were punished by terms in jail. One would ask, why would atheist communists bother to punish same-sex relations, given the fact they had no religion to follow, and the answer is simple, even in their common sense, they realized it is wrong. Case closed.
There has never been a shortage of people who are homophobic. But IMHO religions do promote homophobia.

My guess is the less religious some one is the less probable that they have a problem homosexuality.

But of course with humans, there are few commonly held thoughts.

For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do
Is that like terrorizing people like Muslims do?
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czgibson
12-28-2007, 08:05 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
On the question of homosexuality being wrong for religious reasons or for personal reasons. I would say it is wrong for both. Even hardcore atheist would conclude that morality is inate, to a certain degree.
Perhaps. It's a topic of much debate among philosophers, so some atheists might agree and some might not. I think morality is something that has evolved with us for survival purposes. After all, a species whose members refrain from killing each other is more likely to survive.

As human beings, we have the precognition, that certain acts are wrong no matter what relgion dictates. For example, abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do, is wrong for whatever reason.
I would ask you to retract that hateful remark. I have very few good things to say about the Catholic church myself, but your comment is as objectionable as someone saying: "He blew himself up, like Muslims do".

It doesn't a rocket scientist or a mullah to determine that abusing young children is wrong. We just know it is wrong.
This argument is what's known as the appeal to deontological ethics. It's a fairly strong position, but it can give rise to difficult paradoxes when one person must die to save another, or other situations of that kind. You can read more about it here.
By the same token, homosexuality is contrary to the natural law.
Whose existence and / or binding nature is uncertain.

It does not produce children.
Most of the adult sexual couplings that occur do not produce children. Are they all ethically wrong too? An infertile couple will never have children by themselves, so is it wrong for them to have sexual intercourse?

It harms the body.
Could you explain a little more about exactly what sort of harm you are thinking of? It's also very common for heterosexual sex to have harmful results for health - STDs do not only affect gay people.

It's interesting to note, even in the former Communist Soviet Union, same-sex relations were punished by terms in jail.
The same was true in the more developed parts of the world until relatively recently. Some of us have moved on; others have not.

One would ask, why would atheist communists bother to punish same-sex relations, given the fact they had no religion to follow, and the answer is simple, even in their common sense, they realized it is wrong.
Perhaps because when those laws were created the legislators were going along with the common prejudice of the time.

Case closed.
Case very much re-opened, methinks.

Peace
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MustafaMc
12-28-2007, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Is that like terrorizing people like Muslims do?
I strongly resent that statement!:heated:
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czgibson
12-28-2007, 11:49 PM
Greetings MustafaMc,

You're an intelligent chap, so I'm sure you'll understand that when wilber says:

Is that like terrorizing people like Muslims do?
He doesn't actually mean it. He's responding in kind to the idiotic thinking that says something like:

abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do
Can you see how those statements both use the same kind of logic, and are both as stupid as each other?

Peace
Reply

MustafaMc
12-29-2007, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings MustafaMc,

You're an intelligent chap, so I'm sure you'll understand that when wilber says:

He doesn't actually mean it. He's responding in kind to the idiotic thinking that says something like:

Can you see how those statements both use the same kind of logic, and are both as stupid as each other?

Peace
Yes, I see the analogy, but this is a HOT-button for me and I don't take it in joking manner. Sorta like a guy passing through security to get on a plane and joking that he has a bomb or gun. Just like this would certainly get one arrested, so also one gets me riled up by saying such non-sense.
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czgibson
12-29-2007, 12:21 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, I see the analogy, but this is a HOT-button for me and I don't take it in joking manner.
And that's kinda the problem, no?

Sorta like a guy passing through security to get on a plane and joking that he has a bomb or gun.
I'm afraid I don't see the analogy in this case.

Just like this would certainly get one arrested, so also one gets me riled up by saying such non-sense.
Do you accept that the original comment is just as offensive about Catholics as the later one is about Muslims? Or are we in an irony-free zone here?

Peace
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I strongly resent that statement!:heated:
Have a read of what czgibson had to say. He was spot on. :D

My statement was just as stupid, narrow minded, and bigoted as the statement I was addressing. :hiding::hiding::hiding:

this is a HOT-button for me and I don't take it in joking manner
If you find what I said offensive, who don't you find this offensive?
abusing little children, like Roman Catholic priests do
Are you only offend if the disrespect is aimed at what you respect?

See, that's the difference between you and me.
I'm offended if disrespect is aimed at what anyone respects. (Assuming it is not deserved)
Reply

MustafaMc
12-29-2007, 01:16 AM
Do you accept that the original comment is just as offensive about Catholics as the later one is about Muslims? Or are we in an irony-free zone here?
Yes, I accept that the one about the Catholic priest is offensive and unacceptable, too. This is actually illustrative in that I believe that the frequency of pedophilic Catholic priests is very low - very much like I believe the frequency of terroristic Muslims is very low. However, it makes the point that a few rotten apples spoil the whole bunch.
My statement was just as stupid, narrow minded, and bigoted as the statement I was addressing. :hiding::hiding::hiding:
OK, I accept that you meant it only in jest, but still....
Are you only offend if the disrespect is aimed at what you respect?

See, that's the difference between you and me.
I'm offended if disrespect is aimed at what anyone respects. (Assuming it is not deserved)
No, I too am offended by disrespect directed towards others. Remember that I grew up in and live in Mississippi - a most racially bigoted place.
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Grace Seeker
12-29-2007, 03:35 AM
Hey all, now that we've talked about the proclivities of various forms of sexual expression and our various feelings with regard to it and the use of various labels that are seen as both false and insulting, anyone want to talk about the Americanization of Islam? Or should I look for that in some other thread?
Reply

czgibson
12-29-2007, 03:45 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Hey all, now that we've talked about the proclivities of various forms of sexual expression and our various feelings with regard to it and the use of various labels that are seen as both false and insulting, anyone want to talk about the Americanization of Islam? Or should I look for that in some other thread?
It's all germane to the discussion, and this latest little tangent was actually initiated by the thread starter, so if you're concerned it's off-topic, maybe you should take it up with him.

In any case, what's wrong with a discussion moving through different phases? There's a lot to cover, you know! :)

Peace
Reply

جوري
12-29-2007, 03:48 AM
lol..I believe the guest of the hour had his account disabled?! not sure if there is much value to this thread.. though I generally tend to believe that there is a wave in the world that wants a certain dominant tide and will crush all that is in its way..

sort of like everyone wearing a flapper dress in the twenties, dancing the Charleston in the thirties then sporting sideburns in the seventies... it is a tidal wave that engulfs all that is in its path and if you resist it, then suffer the consequences ..

I don't believe however that such wil engulf Islam and americanize or westernize it, what it might create is a schism, so that true Muslims stand on one side and the fickles on the other.. it is congruous with the signs of the end... the more I look at the world detached from it, the more I see everything happening right on schedule, not even Nostradamus could have been this precise!


peace!
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MustafaMc
12-29-2007, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
... what it might create is a schism, so that true Muslims stand on one side and the fickles on the other.. it is congruous with the signs of the end... the more I look at the world detached from it, the more I see everything happening right on schedule, not even Nostradamus could have been this precise!
Sister, I am not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps you can explain who the "fickles" are.

I don't see so much the Americanization of Islam as much as I see the Americanization of Muslims the world over. I see Muslims come to USA mostly to make money and to have a better material life than they had in their country. I definitely don't see that they come here to spread the message of Islam. Generally, Muslims are becoming more materialistic and striving more for this dunya than they are the Hereafter.
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Grace Seeker
12-29-2007, 04:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,



It's all germane to the discussion, and this latest little tangent was actually initiated by the thread starter, so if you're concerned it's off-topic, maybe you should take it up with him.

In any case, what's wrong with a discussion moving through different phases? There's a lot to cover, you know! :)

Peace
I was just interested in the thread based on its title. And you may think that it is all germane, but I guess I'm too dense to see it as much more than a chase down a rabbit trail. Seriously, why does one suggest that Islam is being "Americanized"?

Perhaps that might be true of Muslims living in the USA, but on what basis would one apply that moniker to the rest of the world?

Also, is there something wrong with an American version of Islam? There seem to be uniquely Iranian, Saudi, Turkish, and Malaysian verisions of Islam, why not an American version?

Does the OP suggest that one cannot be both a true American and a true Muslim at the same time? What of Muslims who serve in various governmental offices in the USA, are they being poor Muslims because of it? Or should the rest of America suspect that they are not truly serving those they are placed there to serve?

If there is something inheritantly wrong with the Americanization of Islam, would there not also be something inheritantly wrong with the Pakistanization of Islam, or any other adoption that Islam made to any other culture from which it did not spring? When Islam became the dominant religion of Spain, it both influenced it and was influenced by it, are you suggesting that this was bad for Islam? Surely you do not suggest that Islam should not be spread around the world, but should be confined to the region in which it first emerged? But if it is to interact with the world, it needs to understand that the world is going to interact with it as well. It is always a two-way street. Should Isalm withdraw and isolate itself from the world it seeks to influence? Does it not cease being Islam even more by behaving that way?

Lastly, perhaps what the OP objects to isn't actually the Americanization of Islam at all? But rather, something else at work in the world that is acting on both Islam and America at the same time. Namely, I see a globalization of culture in general. Islam and America are both effected by this. Further, as has been true throughout the history of mankind, self-interest, self-aggrandizement, comfort, security, an ability to provide basic wants and even luxuries, prestige, and power seem to be the things that people around the world are seeking, be they Americans or Muslims.
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جوري
12-29-2007, 04:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Sister, I am not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps you can explain who the "fickles" are.

I don't see so much the Americanization of Islam as much as I see the Americanization of Muslims the world over. I see Muslims come to USA mostly to make money and to have a better material life than they had in their country. I definitely don't see that they come here to spread the message of Islam. Generally, Muslims are becoming more materialistic and striving more for this dunya than they are the Hereafter.

My post wasn't meant about Muslims in America or the west.
Actually it was meant in general.. try to watch ART,
an arabic chanel as you can see, and sure you'll know exactly what I am talking about. I have met very conservative people in America that sported blue aprons dresses and white head bonnets and they too would gasp at the lewdeness.

perhaps when it is projected at you all the time, all you can do is shrug your shoulder and ignore it? but there are people from birth that are imbued with the sentiment that this is liberation and freedom.
Fact is they only take the filth and leave temperance, proper judgement and progression in areas that matter, at least seemed to have mattered to them at some point, now long neglected.
our best of scholars are imprisoned in countries that violate every human right known to man and I am not just talking about gitmo, I am talking Egypt, syria..Everyone has an opinion to suit the tides, people who are observant are considered pariahs, again I urge you to watch an Egyptian movie where there is incessant portral of Muslims as backward, idiotic, undereducated etc.

In the end the observant will be at one end, the nonobservant will be at the other, you already see it with people like 'wfa sultan, sulman rushdie' etc
it is all in concert with how the end of times were narrated by prophet Mohammed (p)

Abu Nadhrah says: "We were sitting in the company of Jabir bin Abdullah radhiyallahu anhu when he said: 'Soon the people of IRAQ will neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." (i.e they will prevent food from going into Iraq, in the form of "sanctions" to this day.) He then said: "Soon the people of Shaam (SYRIA) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans (christians)."

The Minor Signs of the Last Day

Abu Musa Ash'ari radhiyallahu anhu narrates that Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, "Qiyamah will come...

1. When it will be regarded as a shame to act on Quranic injunctions.
2. When untrustworthy people will be regarded as trustworthy and the trustworthy will be regarded as untrustworthy.
3. When it will be hot in winter (and vice versa).
4. When the length of days is stretched, i.e. a journey of a few days is covered in a matter of hours.
5. When orators and lecturers lie openly.
6. When people dispute over petty issues.
7. When women with children come displeased on account of them bearing offspring, and barren women remain happy on account of having no responsibility of offspring.
8. When oppression, jealousy, and greed become the order of the day.
9. When people blatantly follow their passions and whims.
10. When lies prevail over the truth.
11. When violence, bloodshed and anarchy become common.
12. When immorality overtakes shamelessness and is perpetrated publicly.
13. When legislation matters pertaining to Deen is handed over to the worst elements of the Ummat, and if people accept them and are satisfied with their findings, then such persons will not smell the fragrance of Jannat
14. When the offspring become a cause of grief and anger (for their parents).


The following is part of a lengthy Hadith narrated by Abdullah Ibn Mas'ood radhiyallahu anhu when he inquired from Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam about the Signs of Qiyamah.
1. Music and musical instruments will be found in every home.
2. People will indulge in homosexuality.
3. There will be an abundance of illegitimate children.
4. There will be an abundance of critics, tale-carriers, back- biters and taunters in society.
5. People will establish ties with strangers and sever relations with their near and dear ones.
6. Hypocrites will be in control of the affairs of the community and evil, immoral people will be at the helm of business establishments.
7. The Masjid will be decorated, but the hearts of the people will be devoid of guidance.
8. The courtyards of Masjids will be built beautifully and high mimbars (pulpits) will be erected.
9. Gangsters and evil people will prevail.
10. Various wines will be consumed excessively.


Auf bin Malik radhiyallahu anhu says: I came to Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam while he was in his skin tent during the Tabuk expedition. He said to me, "Count six things before the advent of Qiyamah:
1. My death
2. The conquest of Jerusalem
3. Mass deaths amongst you people, just as when sheep die in large numbers during an epidemic
4. Abundance of wealth to such an extent that if a person were to be given a hundred Dinars he will still not be satisfied
5. General anarchy and bloodshed, that no Arab household will be spared from it
6. Then a life of peace as a result of a peace agreement between you and the Banil Asfaar
(Romans) which they will break and attack you with a force consisting of eighty flags and under each flag will be an army of twelve thousand men." (Hadith: Sahih Bukhari).


IRAQ and SYRIA

Abu Nadhrah says: "We were sitting in the company of Jabir bin Abdullah radhiyallahu anhu when he said: 'Soon the people of IRAQ will neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the non-Arabs." (i.e they will prevent food from going into Iraq, in the form of "sanctions" to this day.) He then said: "Soon the people of Shaam (SYRIA) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the Romans (christians)."

CONCEITED PEOPLE:

Abbas radhiyallahu anhu narrates that Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam has said, "Islam will spread far and wide, across the seas. Horses will cross the land and seas in the cause of Jihaad. Then a time will come wherein a group of people will emerge which recites the Quraan. They will claim,
'We have recited the Quraan and is there anyone who understands the Quraan better than us? There is NO ONE more proficient than us in the study of the Quraan.'

Then Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam asked the Sahaba, "Do you see any good in their claims?" The Sahaba replied, "No". Rasulallah sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, "But these conceited claimants will be from my Ummah and will be the fuel of the Fire."


The Major Signs of the Last Day

A. The occurrences before the Major Signs:

GENOCIDE

A man from Abu Sufyaan’s progeny massacres descendents of Nabi (S.A.W) and rules over Syria and Egypt.

WAR

A major war between Muslims and Christians: Half the Christian army will sign a peace treaty with the Muslim army, while the second half of the Christian army remains the common enemy.

ISTANBUL CONQUERED BY CHRISTIANS

The enemy half of the Christian army conquers Constantinople (Istanbul), Turkey.

ISTANBUL RECONQUERED JOINTLY BY MUSLIM AND CHRISTIANS

The Muslims and the good half of the Christian army conquer Constantinople together, against the enemy Christians. Thereafter, a Christian will say the victory was due to the cross, and the Muslim will say it was due to Islam. A battle between both sides will ensue, and the Muslim Ruler will be martyred.

SYRIA CONQUERED BY CHRISTIANS

The two Christian armies reunite, conquering Syria.

CHRISTIAN DOMINATION

Christians dominate the world up to Khaiber (near Madinah), and they will pursue Muslims with 80 flags, with 12,000 men under each flag.

MUSLIMS AWAIT Imaam Mahdi

TOTAL ECLIPSE

A total eclipse of the sun and moon will occur in Ramadhaan, prior to Imaam Mahdi’s emergence.

IMAAM MAHDI EMERGES

At age 40, Imam Mahdi appears in Makkah, then flees to Madinah.

B. The Major Signs (i.e. events after the emergence of Imam Mahdi)

MUSLIM ARMY MARCHES

The army of Mansoor from Khurasaan will head towards Makkah to aid Imam Mahdi. They will win many battles on the way. No force will be able to stop them. They will carry black flags.

SUFYAANI ARMY SWALLOWED BY THE EARTH.

The Sufyaani army (an Anti-Muslim force) from Syria singles out Imam Mahdi for execution. On the way to Makkah, they get swallowed into the ground. A second Sufyaani army is created with 960,000 men (of 80 nations).

CONFRONTATION IN SYRIA

Imam Mahdi and the Muslim army go to Syria to confront the Christians. The Christians, before the battle, will ask Muslims for the return of their prisoners-of-war. The Muslims will refuse. The battle will begin. One-third of Imam Mahdi’s army will flee (their repentance will not be accepted), one-third will be martyred, and one-third will gain victory over the Christians.

MUSLIM ARMY UNDER IMAAM MAHDI CONQUERS PALESTINE JIHAAD ON INDIA

A jamaat of Muslims wages Jihaad on India and be successful.

SYRIA UNDER MUSLIM RULE

Imam Mahdi returns to Syria and establishes Muslim rule over the lands he passes.

ANIMOSTIY RIFE AMONGST THE PEOPLE

At this time, Muslims will be weak and there will be very few pious people.

3 RUMORS OF EMERGENCE OF Dajjaal ("Anti-Christ")... 3 YEARS OF DROUGHT

Before the emergence of Dajjaal there will be three years of drought. The first year, the skies will retain 1/3 of its water, the second year 2/3, and all of its water the third year.

DAJJAAL APPEARS

Dajjal appears. His followers, the Yahudis, will number 70,000 and will wear expensive silk attire and carry double edged swords.
Eisa alayhis salaam (JESUS) APPEARS
Eisa alayhis salaam descends during the lifetime of Imaam Mahdi.

DAJJAL KILLED AT THE GATE OF HUDD

Eisa alayhis salaam kills Dajjal at the Gate of Hudd, near an Israeli airport, in the valley of “Ifiq.” The final war between the Yahudi's will ensue, and the Muslims be victorious.

TOTAL PEACE

With the death of Dajjal, all wars will end. Jihad will be stopped; peace, harmony, and tranquility will be on earth. The earth will produce abundant crops and fruit. The people will follow Islam.

ISA RECEIVES REVELATION

The revelation tells that the Yajooj and Majooj will soon be released and the believers should be taken to Mt. Toor (Sinai).

Yajooj And Majooj ("Gog and Magog") RELEASED

The Yajooj and Majooj surge forth in large numbers. They destroy everything in their path in their effort to conquer the world. They will be released in two groups.

YAJOOJ AND MAJOOJ REACH JERUSALEM

When they reach Mount Khamrin in Jerusalem, they will proclaim to have conquered the world. Then the will shoot arrows into the sky to conquer the heavens. The arrows will return blood stained.

HARDHSHIPS ON MOUNT TOOR

Scarcity of provisions and hardships will afflict the Muslims. Eisa alayhis salaam and the Muslims will pray for the removal of the calamity.

YAJOOJ AND MAJOOJ KILLED BY INFECTIONS

Their prayers were answered and the Yajooj and Majooj develop boil infections, causing them to burst simultaneously as a result.

EARTH FULL OF STENCH OF CORPSES

Eisa alayhis salaam and his companions pray again and huge birds are sent to pick up the Yajooj and Majooj corpses and dispose of them in Nahbal (according to Tirmidhi), the ocean or elsewhere.

PEACE ON EARTH

It will rain for forty days and the earth will be cleansed. Muslims will burn the bows and arrow of Yajooj and Majooj for 7 years. Life will be peaceful while Hadhrat Eisa alayhis salaam is alive. The earth will be bountiful. Hadhrat Eisa will live 19 years after marriage.

ISA PASSES AWAY AND BURIED NEXT TO MUHAMMED (S.A.W.)

OTHER LEADERS FOLLOW AFTER EISA alayhis salaam

Jahjaan from Qahtaan, from a tribe in Yemen, will rule as the next Khalifa. Muquad, from a tribe of Banu Tamim will also be a deputy.

SOCIETY SLOWLY DECAYS AND KUFR SETS IN

The Final Signs of Qiyaamah:

1 THE CAVING IN OF THE GROUND
The ground will cave in: one in the east, one in the west, and one in Hejaz, Saudi Arabia.
2 THE FORTY DAY SMOKE/FOG
Fog or smoke will cover the skies for forty days. The non-believers will fall unconscious, while Muslims will be ill (develop colds). The skies will then clear up.
3 THE NIGHT OF THREE NIGHTS
A night three nights long will follow the fog. It will occur in the month of Zil-Hajj after Eidul-Adha, and cause much restlessness among the people.
4 THE RISING OF THE SUN IN THE WEST
After the night of three nights, the following morning the sun will rise in the west. People’s repentance will not be accepted after this incident.
5 THE BEAST FROM THE EARTH APPEARS
One day later, the Beast from the earth will miraculously emerge from Mount Safaa in Makkah, causing a split in the ground. The beast will be able to talk to people and mark the faces of people, making the believers’ faces glitter, and the non-believers’ faces darkened.
6 THE BREEZE FROM THE SOUTH
A breeze from the south causes sores in the armpits of Muslims, which they will die of as a result.
7 DESTRUCTION OF THE KA’ABA
The Ka’aba will be destroyed by non-Muslim African group. Kufr will be rampant. Haj will be discontinued. The Qur’an will be lifted from the heart of the people, 30 years after the ruler Muquad’s death.
8 FINAL SIGN OF QIYAAMAH: FIRE IN YEMEN
The fire will follow people to Syria, after which it will stop.

COMMENCEMENT OF QIYAAMAH
Some years after the fire, Qiyaamah begins with the Soor (trumpet) being blown. The year is not known to any person. Qiyaamah will come upon the worst of creation.
http://www.islamictorrents.net/detai...#startcomments


peace!
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-29-2007, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not all Christian churches condemn homosexuality. Nor do all branches of Judaism/Islam. I don't think their stance is compliant with the books they believe in, but nevertheless...
Christians say we are to hate the sin not the sinners. I don't know what's the islamic/jewish ruling on this matter.
Judaism - put the gays to death IF they have gay sex. But according to most Rabbi's, one is not gay for having same sex attractions. Rather, one is gay if they act upon them.

Islam - If the guys are married to women and cheat on their wives with each other, they are to be stoned. If they are to unmarried guys who do it with each other, they are to receive 100 lashes and exile for one year. (please, any muslims correct me if I am wrong.)

But I think generally speaking, islam is similar to Judaism, in that many muslims believe that it is not having the ATTRACTION that is bad, but rather acting it out.
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-29-2007, 05:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
Let's just a theocratic Islamic state, and we will all be happy. Finally, as a heterosexual Muslim man I will be able to live in peace.
I do not oppose to that, just do not do it in my country(USA) or in Europe. But hey, suadi arabia, indonesia, malaysia, egypt, qatar, iraq, morocco, all the muslim nations... Merge and form the caliphate for all i care! Just give the christians and others their rights, and do not impose your laws on me in my country!!

Contrary to what most think, I have always been a proponent of the establishment of the calipha, so that muslims who want to live in a true shariah do not have to try to impose it on us in the west, but rather they can have their own nation they can move to!
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-29-2007, 06:19 AM
You understand that Christianity isn't any more open to these things than Islam is?

The form of Christianity practiced in the western nations is more tolerant of what within the Christian scriptures be called immoral behavior and does not respond with execution, but people practicing such behaviors are (except among those who have become so liberal as to no longer look to the scriptures as authoritative) are to be cast out of the church. It's just about has harsh as Sharia law.

Perhaps this is why when the OP sees such practice beginning to be tolerated in Islam he wishes to call it the "Americanization of Islam". However, I would like to suggest that what he sees is mud splattered on America and falsely assumes that American must be the source of any such mud that then gets splattered on Islam.

I would like to suggest that both perhaps are experiencing the results of something that goes back to even before the founding of the USA, all the way back to the Renaisance, and especially to the Enlightenment. This view of allowing people to do what they wish, and simply accepting it was most certainly adopted by America, but it originated in the teachings of the European Enlightenment. Whether it is a good or bad idea I will leave for another time, but I think that perhaps the OP has his finger pointed at just another culture that was simply previously impacted by this other way of looking at the world before it began to similarly impact Islam. BTW, I see the same thing at work in China and other countries that are not so influenced by America as by commerce.
Reply

Keltoi
12-29-2007, 04:55 PM
Perhaps a better word would be secularization of Islam.
Reply

جوري
12-29-2007, 06:30 PM
^^^ bingo!
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-29-2007, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Perhaps a better word would be secularization of Islam.
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
^^^ bingo!

I too think you've hit the nail on the head, Keltoi.


Now, the follow-up question is, who is it that is responsible for the secularization of Islam?


Flip Wilson used to make a fortune shouting, "The Devil made me do it!!" Of course, it got a big laugh because blaming someone else for your own failings, even if it is the devil himself tempting you, is the height of immaturity and irresponsibility. It is a comic farce to lay blame on others for your own poor choices. It is to say that I am not a competant person, and need to be protected from myself.

Surely Islam understands that if there is a secularization of Islam taking place, that the responsibility lies with those who make those choices within Islam, not the world outside Islam.
Reply

جوري
12-29-2007, 10:53 PM
A hand can't clap alone it takes a little effort from many sides.. but you are right, I mainly blame Muslims, especially middle easterners, which by the way is where I am from originally.. when I go to my mother country sometimes I am just utterly shocked and appalled.. but it doesn't change the fact that America has bought a couple of chanels there and brain washes youths freely (of course they have the option to turn the TV off) so it is a two way effort.. and that is no reflection on Americans, as I tend to think many american young are brain washed as well..while their parents grieve over where they went wrong...

It is a rites of passage to be brainwashed me thinkus?...

on a different note.. almost a complete digression. I feel rod serling wasn't only conscious of this but made it the subject of many of his 'twilight zone episodes' most notably "Number 12 Looks Just Like You" and "The Howling Man"
he was a man ahead of his times.. I wonder if others have picked up on it? especially that he wrote many of them himself..

anyhow my two cents..
Reply

Grace Seeker
12-30-2007, 12:26 AM
I know you don't listen to music, but I still remember the insight found in this old Harry Chapin song from my youth:

My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkin' 'fore I knew it, and as he grew
He'd say "I'm gonna be like you dad
You know I'm gonna be like you"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home dad?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

My son turned ten just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let's play
Can you teach me to throw", I said "Not today
I got a lot to do", he said, "That's ok"
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know I'm gonna be like him"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

Well, he came home from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
"Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while?"
He shook his head and said with a smile
"What I'd really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please?"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

I've long since retired, my son's moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind"
He said, "I'd love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job's a hassle and kids have the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, Dad
It's been sure nice talking to you"

And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then
Reply

جوري
12-30-2007, 12:34 AM
I am quite familiar with that song actually..
I have lost my taste for music only recently and not quite fully.. still like some 'folk' songs, I don't find them much different than nasheeds (very clean)...

It doesn't change the fact that that 'condy' had a vision for 'a new middle east' and that many are working hard toward realizing that goal..
can't fault civilians for their corrupt govt. can only blame them if they take the bait and fall prey!

peace!
Reply

Gator
12-30-2007, 05:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now, the follow-up question is, who is it that is responsible for the secularization of Islam?
My opinion is that only 15% of people really take religion seriously (and 5% are hardcore).

The 80% of people may do it because its their culture and yeah they believe it, but they just want to get on with their lives as best they can. They don't have the interest to get into the details and just take cues from others.

The 80% are never going to be hardcore or even very seriously follow up on the religion. They'll do what they like to do and if the muslims are dominant they're a "muslim" and if the christians are dominant they're "christians" and if atheists are dominant they're "atheists".

The hardcore or serious versions of religions are not going to be followed by the vast majority. To reach a mass audience, everything gets watered down.

Just some thoughts (and the percentages are certainly variable).

Thanks.
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-30-2007, 06:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
My opinion is that only 15% of people really take religion seriously (and 5% are hardcore).

The 80% of people may do it because its their culture and yeah they believe it, but they just want to get on with their lives as best they can. They don't have the interest to get into the details and just take cues from others.

The 80% are never going to be hardcore or even very seriously follow up on the religion. They'll do what they like to do and if the muslims are dominant they're a "muslim" and if the christians are dominant they're "christians" and if atheists are dominant they're "atheists".

The hardcore or serious versions of religions are not going to be followed by the vast majority. To reach a mass audience, everything gets watered down.

Just some thoughts (and the percentages are certainly variable).

Thanks.
I would say that only 10% of Americans who are Christian actually know about their own religion! I mean I know many Christians.. Including one pastors son. I asked him what the first books of the Bible is, and he has no clue! I think one problem with Christianity, is that Christians have this great love for Jesus, they pray a lot, and they do all that.. but they do not use the Bible as their source. They just have this personal relationship. Which is good, but only to an extent.

Most americans know nothing about their own religion.

I am personally very glad that Christianity and Judaism have reformed so much. But deep down, I know that Judaism is just as harsh as Islam on some issues, and Christianity looks down upon things just as much as the Judaism and Islam.(Only thankfully, most Christians do not support death to any sinner!)

If we lived under a strict shariah, I would say 90% of us Americans would be punished! whether it be by lashing because of drinking/fornication, cutting hands because of thieves, etc.. There is nooo way our culture as is can handle Islam lol. (Or radical Christianity/Judaism for that matter.)
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جوري
12-30-2007, 07:12 AM
lol.. you think 90% of americans are thieves and fornicators?

I don't believe Americans would be stopped from doing the things that they 'love' so long as it is not down right unlawful even by western standards, unless you pass out Kinko's invitation to a blatant extramarital orgy with wife swapping...

Europeans lived under Islamic rule for 800yrs.. It really wasn't that bad.. it was commemorated in frescos like 'the School of Athens' .. it was the age of enlightenment.. unless you know of a different history than the one recorded?


cheers
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-30-2007, 08:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
lol.. you think 90% of americans are thieves and fornicators?

I don't believe Americans would be stopped from doing the things that they 'love' so long as it is not down right unlawful even by western standards, unless you pass out Kinko's invitation to a blatant extramarital orgy with wife swapping...

Europeans lived under Islamic rule for 800yrs.. It really wasn't that bad.. it was commemorated in frescos like 'the School of Athens' .. it was the age of enlightenment.. unless you know of a different history than the one recorded?


cheers
Ah, thieves, I doubt 90%... But definetely fornicators and drinkers and gambling!

Of course, fornicators=sex before marriage. I doubt many people commit adultery!
Reply

Gator
12-30-2007, 01:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Europeans lived under Islamic rule for 800yrs.. It really wasn't that bad.. it was commemorated in frescos like 'the School of Athens' .. it was the age of enlightenment.. unless you know of a different history than the one recorded?
Hello PA, this is interesting. Which parts of Europe were under Islamic rule (besides the Iberian penninsula) and when? I thought the school of athens was about the greek philosophers? Thanks.
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جوري
12-30-2007, 07:37 PM
are the dwellers of the 'Iberian penninsula' not considered Europeans?
the school of athens had Averroes (Ibn Rushd) in it, not just Greek philosophers



thanks for your interest..
Reply

ricardo_sousa
12-31-2007, 09:41 AM
Not all Iberian peninsula was occupied by the muslin invaders. There was a region in the North of the peninsula that was never conquered. And the "reconquer" by the Christian tribes or nations began from that region.
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Fishman
12-31-2007, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
Not all Iberian peninsula was occupied by the muslin invaders. There was a region in the North of the peninsula that was never conquered. And the "reconquer" by the Christian tribes or nations began from that region.
:sl:
The 'Reconquista' was not actually a reconquest. Dispite being Christians, the people who organised the reconquista were not the same people that had their lands conquered in the first place, the Visigoths. It would be like Australian Aborigines forming an army and conquering the USA, then calling it a 'reconquest' because both they and the orginal people of the land were aborigines.
:w:
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ricardo_sousa
12-31-2007, 10:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The 'Reconquista' was not actually a reconquest. Dispite being Christians, the people who organised the reconquista were not the same people that had their lands conquered in the first place, the Visigoths.
It is called "Reconquista" (reconquest) because of the religion, not because of the people. That´s why the term "reconquest" is used. The Christians reconquer the land lost to the Muslins. Christianity regain the peninsula against Islam.

And in fact some Christians tribes run away to the north to escape the muslin invasion. But the numbers were small.
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Hawa
12-31-2007, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I'm not suggesting that for a moment.



Hating certain groups of people is an intrinsic part of Islam, is it not?

Peace

Of course it is. How else will one attain heaven if he does not constantly deride jews, feminists and homosexuals. Clearly the thread maker opposes all forms of deviance from true Islam especially those propagated in the books he sells.

I'm not sure why but there seems to be a very fine line between being a secularist and a fanatic, one would've thought these two groups polar opposites..
Reply

Gator
12-31-2007, 05:33 PM
Hey PA, I thought you were saying all Europeans. My mistake. Thanks.
Reply

Grace Seeker
01-01-2008, 02:28 AM
I'm lost in this conversation. Are we still talking about the Americanization of Islam? How do those that object to that process feel about the suggestion that it isn't so much the Americanization of Islam, but rather a secularlization of Islam that is taking place? And that America is also being impacted by this global secularlization that is taking place in our time?
Reply

wilberhum
01-01-2008, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I'm lost in this conversation. Are we still talking about the Americanization of Islam? How do those that object to that process feel about the suggestion that it isn't so much the Americanization of Islam, but rather a secularlization of Islam that is taking place? And that America is also being impacted by this global secularlization that is taking place in our time?
That is possibly the most realistic conclusion in this thread. :thumbs_up
Reply

syed saboor
01-01-2008, 08:58 AM
Actually, this has nothing to do with this topic, but I just wanted to apologize for many of the statements I had made about Arabs. I did rethink things through and I acted in anger, and for that I am sorry to anybody who I offeneded. You can't judge everybody the same way. Please accept my sincerest apologies.

Syed Saboor
Reply

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