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guyabano
12-28-2007, 02:27 PM
Hello,

an arab woman has the guts to speak out, what many other people think in silence. May she find some open ears.
The message I like most is 'Accept other for their different faith' .
So far, peace to all

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adeeb
12-28-2007, 02:45 PM
wafa sulthan....i've watched this video before...

how Allah change her mind from light to darkness...and Allah close her ears from truth...

jahannam awaits this women...that what many people said after watching this video...

waiyyadubillah!
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crayon
12-28-2007, 02:56 PM
"Arab Woman Dares To Speak Truth!!!!"

You mean the "truth" you agree with, right?

I could make a youtube video describing Islam and the way it treats women. I'm Arab, I'm a woman (well, girl/young woman/you know what I mean).

Would you then, I wonder, make a thread about it titled "Arab woman dares to speak truth!!!!!"?
I doubt it.
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jzcasejz
12-28-2007, 03:08 PM
LOL!!! This has been posted a few times before... how pathetic!!! And what, just because she's an Arab it adds alot of credibility does it? If you think her video's good, then you should post the response given to her by that Egyptian man. ;)

This thread = Waste of space. You're late guyabano, realll late...
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S_87
12-28-2007, 03:18 PM
she didnt speak the truth she spoke junk and its highly amusing that memritv posted what she said but didnt post the sheikh blasting her and replying to her afterwards. :rolleyes:

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we dont need her we dont need her suppoty
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S_87
12-28-2007, 03:19 PM
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now this is one man speaking the truth and stating the facts :)
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thinktank
12-28-2007, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
she didnt speak the truth she spoke junk and its highly amusing that memritv posted what she said but didnt post the sheikh blasting her and replying to her afterwards. :rolleyes:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ztXaNwbbJQU


http://youtube.com/watch?v=r3CVMK5SSGY&feature=related


we dont need her we dont need her suppoty
yup! i think this guy whooped her big time! poor lady must have thought she was speaking to in her mind ' a backward muslim that doesnt know much'' well she got kaned in that argument, masha'allah the brother tore her argument and understanding to pieces, i dont think you can do that to the truth? so clearly she must have been speaking falsehood, yeh its obvious she was!
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wilberhum
12-28-2007, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
"Arab Woman Dares To Speak Truth!!!!"

You mean the "truth" you agree with, right?

I could make a youtube video describing Islam and the way it treats women. I'm Arab, I'm a woman (well, girl/young woman/you know what I mean).

Would you then, I wonder, make a thread about it titled "Arab woman dares to speak truth!!!!!"?
I doubt it.
Isn't it odd that you attack guyabano by stating "You mean the "truth" you agree with" and turn around to do the identical dance on the other side of the fence. :playing:
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wilberhum
12-28-2007, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
she didnt speak the truth she spoke junk and its highly amusing that memritv posted what she said but didnt post the sheikh blasting her and replying to her afterwards. :rolleyes:
we dont need her we dont need her suppoty
The fact that some, well many disagree with her, does not change what she has experienced nor does it alter "Her Truth".
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glo
12-28-2007, 09:46 PM
My question is:
Did Muhammed say: “I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all people (non-Muslims) until they say, “No God except Allah” (as this lady is stating)???
Does the Qu'ran say so?
And if so, in which context???

I hope people here realise how very worrying statements like this are, especially in this forum, where others are so very keen to emphasize the peacefulness of Islam ...
It doesn't seem to add up!
Can somebody help me to understand?

Peace
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S_87
12-28-2007, 10:46 PM
Hi glo,
no that is not in the Quran but part of a hadith
Abdullah bin Omar narrated that the messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:

"I have been ordered to fight against people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah and until they perform the prayers and pay the zakat, and if they do so they will have gained protection from me for their lives and property, unless [they do acts that are punishable] in accordance with Islam, and their reckoning will be with Allah the Almighty."
Bukhari and Muslim
It is impossible to interpret that hadith to mean all people as this understanding clearly contradicts numerous verses in the Qur'an including, "there is no compulsion in religion." The hadith apparently refers to the Makkan chiefs who broke the treaty of Hudaybiya then fled after the opening of Makkah and conspired with others to initiate the battle of Hunain. When they were defeated they fled again. Such people were guilty of what we call today "war crimes" and murder of innocent people. While they deserve to be fought against they were given a magnanimous option that if they willingly wish to accept Islam that their previous transgression or crimes will be forgiven and their life and property will be safeguarded. In any case, it is an option, not force, it is a positive and constructive option to reconcile their hearts and assure them if they accept Islam willingly that they will not be punished for their previous atrocities

Another aspect that confirms this understanding is that the use of the term "hatta" in the hadith does not necessarily mean that it is a condition for them to be safe and it could mean in this broad textual context that the reason for Muslims being permitted to fight against aggression or oppression is to safeguard their religious freedom and those of others. So the ultimate objective of averting war may be realized more effectively if the religious enmity on the part the enemy is removed and the most effective way of removing it will occur if they see the light and open their hearts to the truth.
http://www.islamonline.net/livedialo...GuestID=ls0mM5


looking at the life of Muhammed :arabic5: is essential. to pick and choose a hadith and conclude is dangerous and one must always look at the context in which a thing was said/done
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wilberhum
12-28-2007, 11:02 PM
clearly contradicts
I find that is the case with many things in Islam.

That way you can do one thing or the other and justify it.

It is kind of like "an eye for an eye" or "turn the other cheek".

You can walk away of fight and justify it.
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czgibson
12-28-2007, 11:42 PM
Greetings,

Whew! What a furious "debate"!

If this is what passes for serious discourse in some parts of the world, we're all in trouble. There are clear faults on both sides.

To start with, watching the female psychologist, I felt her analysis of the current situation was somewhat simplistic ("barbarism and rationality" etc.), but there was some truth in her later assertions and she did actually put forward a reasoned argument. It wasn't entirely convincing in all respects, and the tendency to broad strokes never disappeared entirely, but much of her speech was specifically designed to be rhetorical and attention-seeking. It's also worth noting her considerable bravery in talking the way she did, given the inevitable reaction she would face.

The two replies from two different chaps were on an altogether different level. Both came across like ranting maniacs, quite frankly, neither ever addressing the specific points of the original argument and going off on irrelevant tangents that went nowhere.

The first speaker began with a totally self-defeating argument about the great Islamic philosopher Ibn-Rushd. It was self-defeating in not one, but two ways. First, he was obviously promoting Ibn-Rushd as some kind of ideal Islamic philosopher. In fact, he held some very heterodox views, and is regarded by many as the founder of Western secularism as a result of his epistemological separation of reason and religion, which provides the intellectual foundations for the separation of church and state.

Second, the chap making the first response claims that the Pope issued a ban on the works of Ibn-Rushd, and included hatred of him as a part of Catholic worship. I can find no evidence for this, or even that Ibn-Rushd was placed on the Catholic Index of Prohibited Books (a perfectly ludicrous document if ever there was one, but that's another story), although he might well have been, as just about every other valuable intellectual work was. However, what I'm getting to is that the same speaker later makes the point that "Christianity cannot be judged by the actions of Christians", thus demolishing his own argument.

Later, we hear from the second responder, who makes absolutely no attempt to address the arguments put before him, beginning with a laughable politician's tactic: " Instead of asking about.... she should have asked about..." He then goes into a long list of Muslim complaints against the West which does nothing to answer the charges. I am ready to admit that almost everything he says is true, but it is totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. He should be trying to prove that Islam is not a backward religion, as the lady argues, and there are many examples he could have used, but he ignores the issue and charges full steam ahead into debating oblivion.

I'm sorry, folks, but these two chaps got completely owned in this discussion. They are unfortunately typical of the kind of Muslim "intellectual" that we see on our screens day after day. There are far more intelligent Muslims out there who could have done their religion a real service by addressing this lady properly (Ansar Al-'Adl, where the heck are you?); these two will just amplify the negative and hugely damaging backlash that Islam continues to face.

Peace
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alcurad
12-29-2007, 05:32 AM
she issued so many incorrect statements to support her points, and overall showed a very narrow understanding of the issue at hand as well. I wonder if this kind of debate helps anyone. The only real solution is that the american government stops its hypocrisy over palestine,and stop its endless nosing and supporting of despots, and that the general arab and muslim worlds to stop the neo-fanatics and neo-seculars from doing more harm than hs been done .
Otherwise it will be business as usual with linguistic cleverness masquerading as solutions that never get implemented anyway.
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 07:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alcurad
she issued so many incorrect statements to support her points, and overall showed a very narrow understanding of the issue at hand as well. I wonder if this kind of debate helps anyone. The only real solution is that the american government stops its hypocrisy over palestine,and stop its endless nosing and supporting of despots, and that the general arab and muslim worlds to stop the neo-fanatics and neo-seculars from doing more harm than hs been done .
Otherwise it will be business as usual with linguistic cleverness masquerading as solutions that never get implemented anyway.
What in the world does her attitude have to do with the US providing aid to Israel? Of course some one with such great knowledge must know that the US also provides aid to Palestine.


Boy talk about hypocrisy. :uuh:


That is such a far reach you must be able to pick apples from the top of the tree.
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 07:10 AM
Yaa Allah let that lady burn in jahanum. Ameen. I want her to go straight to Hell. Not even wait to be judged. Just straight down to Hell. Everyone make duah for this please.
And the title for this post called it the TRUTH. What truth. Guyabano shud go to hell to. Inshaalah
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 07:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Yaa Allah let that lady burn in jahanum. Ameen. I want her to go straight to Hell. Not even wait to be judged. Just straight down to Hell. Everyone make duah for this please.
And the title for this post called it the TRUTH. What truth. Guyabano shud go to hell to. Inshaalah
Do you hate everyone who doesn't believe what you believe? :thumbs_do

You should start hoping god does not judge you based on your hate.
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 07:23 AM
She was saying hateful stuff. Theres a way to express ur beliefs rite. She did it outta hate so ima hate her too. See man, theres a difference b/w someone that talks about not believing in Islam in a way that is respectful and polite and kind. This lady was talking out of hatred. So I hate her.
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adeeb
12-29-2007, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
What in the world does her attitude have to do with the US providing aid to Israel? Of course some one with such great knowledge must know that the US also provides aid to Palestine.


Boy talk about hypocrisy. :uuh:


That is such a far reach you must be able to pick apples from the top of the tree.
that's wrong... how you support aid to the country that you killed their children and man... that's just camouflage... :thumbs_do :thumbs_do
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 07:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
She was saying hateful stuff. Theres a way to express ur beliefs rite. She did it outta hate so ima hate her too. See man, theres a difference b/w someone that talks about not believing in Islam in a way that is respectful and polite and kind. This lady was talking out of hatred. So I hate her.
She says hateful stuff and that justifies you wishing the most horrible thing that can ever happen on her. :thumbs_do

What you express is total intolerance.

I bet you like freedom of speech only if people agree with you.

Do you curse everyone who doesn't agree with you?
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 08:57 AM
I didnt say I want to murder her or I want to kill her family or do any harm to her whatsoever. Dont put words in my mouth. But the Quran teaches me that the worst people are those who are misguided and then spread there misguided beliefs. These types of people will have hell as there dwelling place. And on top of that she is on of the people that was guided and then went astray. Which makes her one of the worst type of person possible.
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guyabano
12-29-2007, 09:11 AM
It might be, that this woman tend to be too much extremist, speaking immediately about rationality and barbarism. But there is a saying: 'Where is a smoke, there is also somewhere a fire'. There are a few true words in her speech, which muslims don't like to hear and love to protest against. But instead of always taking this defending position/attitude, DO something against it.
Examples would be, muslims terrorists. It's only in this religion where this actually happen. It's only muslims who call everybody who doesn't accept Allah as their God 'Unbelievers'. Neither in Buddism, Taoism, Christianity, Jews, you find this term.
Me, as an non-muslim, I really try to understand muslims. Most of them are not really ready to actively do something against it, but prefer the ducking position. I just give an example: I posted in the Joke room a thread about stupid terrorists, but curiously, nobody comment. Fact is, if muslims would support actions against terrorists, at least they would have had a good chuckle and laugh about it. But no, silence... so what does that let think an non-muslim ?

And then the words from Ansar Al-'Adl 'Where the heck are you?' doesn't make things better as everybody can read out of these words what he means by saying that. Shameful !
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 09:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
It's only muslims who call everybody who doesn't accept Allah as their God 'Unbelievers'. Neither in Buddism, Taoism, Christianity, Jews, you find this term.
What do you call an "infidel" LOL thats wat Christians call Muslims. In the crusads thy would shout "KILL THE INFIDELS" and thats what they did. People that say Muslims are more intolerant that Christians aree jackasses too
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guyabano
12-29-2007, 09:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
What do you call an "infidel" LOL thats wat Christians call Muslims. In the crusads thy would shout "KILL THE INFIDELS" and thats what they did. People that say Muslims are more intolerant that Christians aree jackasses too
Would you mind to read posts more accurately: I wrote the word 'ACTUALLY' in Bold, so that means, I refer to today. I don't like to go back to crusades, as it is offtopic. I just speak about the actual situation
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 09:57 AM
Whats ur point? YOu think Muslims are meaner to Christians that Christians are to Muslims. And what makes you think that people dont use infidel anymore. And if they dont its because they dont look at thinks based on religion anymore. most of them dont even follow religion anymore. I bet the religious ones refer to muslims as nonbelievers. Look at the pope ben he hates Muslims
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guyabano
12-29-2007, 10:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Whats ur point? YOu think Muslims are meaner to Christians that Christians are to Muslims. And what makes you think that people dont use infidel anymore. And if they dont its because they dont look at thinks based on religion anymore. most of them dont even follow religion anymore. I bet the religious ones refer to muslims as nonbelievers. Look at the pope ben he hates Muslims
These are keen statements. Can you show your source that the pope hate muslims ?
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DAWUD_adnan
12-29-2007, 10:06 AM
lol...

This is all because of culture, look at the title:

arab woman

Just cos she is arab doesn't mean she knows anything about Islam.

The Prophet(as) himself was not of pure arab descent.

Those who do not believe in Allah(God being ONE) tend to confuse culture with religion.

Islam came to destroy the falsehoods in culture. NOT to replace it.
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 10:08 AM
Come on man everyone knows he does. I mean who the hell just goes out in a public gathering and starts reading stuff bashing Islam saying some real bad stuff.
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DAWUD_adnan
12-29-2007, 10:19 AM
lol @ this wafa uhmm...(female dog) and here idiotic claims
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adeeb
12-29-2007, 10:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Can you show your source that the pope hate muslims ?
we have many proofs about it, bro :mad:

that pope always said that islam is a religion that was spread with sword, or other provocative comments...

i'm sure that popes realize that they are in wrong way, but they just afraid to say that islam is the right religion... they have been suffering from being alone without wife, they just wasting their life...
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guyabano
12-29-2007, 10:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
lol @ this wafa uhmm...(female dog) and here idiotic claims

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guyabano
12-29-2007, 10:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by adeeb
we have many proofs about it, bro :mad:

that pope always said that islam is a religion that was spread with sword, or other provocative comments...
Well, ok, might be. But if you assume something, be sure, you can prrove it by credible news sources. Obviously, nobody here has.
Anyway, this goes offtopic now.
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 10:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by adeeb
that's wrong... how you support aid to the country that you killed their children and man... that's just camouflage... :thumbs_do :thumbs_do
Camouflage? :skeleton:
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 10:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
I didnt say I want to murder her or I want to kill her family or do any harm to her whatsoever.
Where did that come from?
Dont put words in my mouth.
You are the one who whats a person who doesn't believe what you believe to go to hell.
But the Quran teaches me that the worst people are those who are misguided and then spread there misguided beliefs. These types of people will have hell as there dwelling place.
Then let the writer of the Quran send her to hell. It ain't your job.
And on top of that she is on of the people that was guided and then went astray. Which makes her one of the worst type of person possible.
What you said was hate filled. Don't use religion to justify your hate.
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by adeeb
we have many proofs about it, bro :mad:

that pope always said that islam is a religion that was spread with sword, or other provocative comments...

i'm sure that popes realize that they are in wrong way, but they just afraid to say that islam is the right religion... they have been suffering from being alone without wife, they just wasting their life...
That is not proof, that's just you bias. :thumbs_do

If you can't even realize that there are people who believe differently than you, then you realize very little.

PS: In part, Islam was spread by the sword. But then probably every religion the world has ever known, was, in part, spread by the sword.
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S_87
12-29-2007, 12:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
That is not proof, that's just you bias. :thumbs_do


PS: In part, Islam was spread by the sword. But then probably every religion the world has ever known, was, in part, spread by the sword.
Peace

yes the sword was used but not in the way many people think. do we agree on that?
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czgibson
12-29-2007, 12:29 PM
Greetings,

The level of debate from the theists on this thread is, amazingly, even lower than that on the original TV programme.

All we've had is morons saying things like:

She should go to hell

She is a female dog

She said lots of incorrect things
Not one example given, not one shred of evidence.

Guys, why not try and actually address the points she made, rather than just foaming at the mouth with hatred and making yourselves look completely idiotic?

Yes, a little thought will be required, but it'll be worth it in the end. You might even convince someone to change their mind.

Peace
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S_87
12-29-2007, 12:51 PM
^^ first of all she was replied to very well by the scholars she was speaking to.

secondly she said all of this from america, she wouldnt have said it in the arab world but ok

-her point on clash- middle ages and modern times. which one is correct? do both sides not have their pros and cons? whos to say the modern world is better? what is 21st century mentality? is it a mentality free from troubles? why do we have so much problems? is it because of the 'middle aged minded people' versus the forward liberated?
i dont think so
and who treat women like beasts? those who allow and accept a woman can be paid to be used or those who say the woman is a human who deserves honour and respect? yes this is not the case for every single person, but nor are her arguments. they are generalisations and like i said both sides have problems, shes speaking as if life in the west is one of total freedom and enjoyment with no worries and trouble, no crime or barbarity yet anyone who lives anywhere will know she is talking of something that does not exist anywhere


her second point on clash of civilizations, she again need to educate herself on the history of islam. does she not know roman history around then, persian history? does she not know what the jews did to the christians before then? how did islam 'start' all of this?

- if our books say we should kill all non muslims then why is it that we find the wars going on in the world ar non muslims attacking muslims and not the other way round?

- her point on labelling, wait a minute wheres her freedom of speech gone now? out of the window? does it only work one way?

- she says we can believe what we want but not speak of other religions. as a secular human what the heck is she doing speaking of islam?

-she says jews do not kill people- what is going on in palestine? then she compares that with statues? what is it to her if a muslim country owned run and occupied by muslims do something to their own country? what is her concern? like she said cant she keep her own nose out of it?


in conclusion- she speaks as if we are a different species trying to penetrate into human life. we dont need her advice we dont need her opinions which are 100% two faced because she insults us one minute then goes and does the same thing she insulted us for doing?

now the 3 videos posted are clear refutations of her. should they not be addressed too by those who support her wordS?
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crayon
12-29-2007, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Isn't it odd that you attack guyabano by stating "You mean the "truth" you agree with" and turn around to do the identical dance on the other side of the fence. :playing:
I didn't mean that my "truth" was correct.
Anyone can make a video and say anything they want. They could make a video saying that the earth is flat. Unless there's proof, it's a bunch of bull.
You want to say the earth is flat and call that the truth, show me the proof. If it is, go ahead.
But say something like "cats are the cutest animals ever!", and call that truth. no thx.

"it's a clash between two eras, it's a clash that belongs to the middle ages, and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. it is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality, it is a clash between freedom and oppression" etc etc, yadda yadda yadda. The rest is all pretty much the same.

FACTS please.
That's what make truth, not agreement with an opinion.
If this thread was called "Arab woman dares to speak her opinion", I would have absolutely no problem with it. When you call that opinion truth, though, that's when I start having a problem.
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adeeb
12-29-2007, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
That is not proof, that's just you bias. :thumbs_do

If you can't even realize that there are people who believe differently than you, then you realize very little.

PS: In part, Islam was spread by the sword. But then probably every religion the world has ever known, was, in part, spread by the sword.
i believe, people that believe differently than me, are standing in wrong way.. i realize they are exist so many, and i'm sorry for them, as i'm sorry for you.. May Allah show you the right path... ameen :sunny: but they have no right to insult my religion, my God and my rasool

mostly, islam spread without sword... different with other religion that do imperialization and colonization to the other country... islam is very logical religion...
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czgibson
12-29-2007, 01:50 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by amani
^^ first of all she was replied to very well by the scholars she was speaking to.
Those were scholars? You're kidding me. Aren't scholars supposed to be intelligent? Neither of those two had the first clue about how to structure an argument, or respond in any convincing way to the points made! If they are a representative sample of the kind of person that Muslims are taught to look up to, then we really are in trouble. The ignorance, distortion and prejudice that they brought to the table makes them intellectually bankrupt.

secondly she said all of this from america, she wouldnt have said it in the arab world but ok
She would probably have been killed, wouldn't she? I still think it's very brave.

-her point on clash- middle ages and modern times. which one is correct? do both sides not have their pros and cons? whos to say the modern world is better? what is 21st century mentality? is it a mentality free from troubles? why do we have so much problems? is it because of the 'middle aged minded people' versus the forward liberated?
i dont think so
Here, you have actually attempted to address her first argument. This means that you are actually doing better than either of the "scholars". Well done.

Let's take your points one by one:

-her point on clash- middle ages and modern times. which one is correct? do both sides not have their pros and cons?
They do, but I for one would far rather live now than in the Middle Ages.

whos to say the modern world is better?
I live in a house with central heating, clean running water and all mod cons. The great majority of people in the Middle Ages had none of these things. It would be fun to live in the Middle Ages for about a week, I would say (unless you were of a privileged class), but not for a lifetime.

what is 21st century mentality? is it a mentality free from troubles?
Of course not. No civilisation is perfect.
why do we have so much problems? is it because of the 'middle aged minded people' versus the forward liberated?
i dont think so
Well, we disagree there. Anyone who thinks that beheading, for example, is a solution to anything is living in the past. This guy, for example:

Behead&#3720Those20Who20Insult20Islam -

and who treat women like beasts? those who allow and accept a woman can be paid to be used or those who say the woman is a human who deserves honour and respect?
I think people on both sides of the debate would say that women deserve respect.

yes this is not the case for every single person, but nor are her arguments. they are generalisations and like i said both sides have problems, shes speaking as if life in the west is one of total freedom and enjoyment with no worries and trouble, no crime or barbarity yet anyone who lives anywhere will know she is talking of something that does not exist anywhere
I agree - her comments were painted with a broad brush.

her second point on clash of civilizations, she again need to educate herself on the history of islam. does she not know roman history around then, persian history? does she not know what the jews did to the christians before then? how did islam 'start' all of this?
This argument is on the level of the playground: "Yeah, but you started it!" The question is what are we going to do about the situation NOW?
- if our books say we should kill all non muslims then why is it that we find the wars going on in the world ar non muslims attacking muslims and not the other way round?
Those wars are unjustified, and do not have the support of the great majority of people in the West. However, are you seriously suggesting that no Muslims have attacked non-Muslims?

- her point on labelling, wait a minute wheres her freedom of speech gone now? out of the window? does it only work one way?
She's not denying anyone freedom of speech, but if someone says something that is wrong or unjustifiable, then what is wrong with telling them they are wrong?

- she says we can believe what we want but not speak of other religions. as a secular human what the heck is she doing speaking of islam?
She is not denying Muslims the right to believe what they want; she is talking about the insane acts of violence that are committed in the name of Islam all round the world.

-she says jews do not kill people- what is going on in palestine?
She actually phrased it more carefully than that, and I would agree with you if you thought this was slightly underhand as a tactic. However, if you look at what she said, she's right:

"We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant." True.

"We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church." True.

"We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people." Jews have killed people, but not as part of a simple protest. Again, true.
then she compares that with statues? what is it to her if a muslim country owned run and occupied by muslims do something to their own country? what is her concern? like she said cant she keep her own nose out of it?
The destruction of the Buddha statues was one of the most reprehensible acts of cultural terrorism the world has ever seen. To destroy the sacred sites of the members of another religion is utterly wrong, no matter who is in charge.
in conclusion- she speaks as if we are a different species trying to penetrate into human life. we dont need her advice we dont need her opinions which are 100% two faced because she insults us one minute then goes and does the same thing she insulted us for doing?
She's not insulting you, she's insulting the backwards mentality that leads to so much violence in our world.

now the 3 videos posted are clear refutations of her. should they not be addressed too by those who support her wordS?
That's what I was trying to do with this post. Have a read and see what you think of it.

Can I also say to those who are objecting to guyabano's title for this thread: it is not actually his title. That was given by the person who uploaded the video to youtube.

Peace
Reply

aamirsaab
12-29-2007, 02:31 PM
:sl:
The opinion of one person is not the truth. The title of the youtube vid was obviously made by some anti-islamic - typical 15 year old who thinks one muslim calling Islam is backwards (essentially) must mean it is the truth - standard internet crap.

What I personally would like is that these tv shows actually interview proper muslims (like moi). However, since proper muslims say otherwise to what is society's main thoughts are with regards to muslims, you won't find many interviews with them.

As for the video. You can have an opinion, but it doesn't mean it is the truth. Truth is what you define it as. Thus, if you disagree with it strongly enough, it will never be the truth.

Ah the falicy of humans never cease to amaze me. :D
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crayon
12-29-2007, 02:41 PM
Cz, if he disagreed with it, he would have changed it. Leaving it confirms that this is his opinion.
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czgibson
12-29-2007, 02:46 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Cz, if he disagreed with it, he would have changed it. Leaving it confirms that this is his opinion.
Fair enough. It's my opinion too - I agree with most of what she says.

Peace
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crayon
12-29-2007, 02:50 PM
That's cool. People are bound to have different opinions. When one opinion is considered truth and the other false, that's what's not okay.

Salam.
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جوري
12-29-2007, 06:51 PM
'I found no evidence of this'.. one man stated on this thread as to the prohibition of the teachings of 'Ibn Rushd' and in a loud bombastic declamation-- you know the type.. meant to sound authoritative, definitive from the last of the ' learned gentlemen'-- well isn't it amazing what a little google search might do?-- at least if nothing else to loan the 'weighty words'/rant more credence?!

Already during his lifetime, Ibn Rushd’s commentaries were being translated into Latin in Toledo. In his Latin guise, Averroes became known as the Great Commentator. Such was his sway, that the Renaissance artist Raphael included him in his Vatican fresco of the School of Athens (1510-11 CE). But in 1210 CE, barely 12 years after Ibn Rushd’s death, the study of his commentaries was banned at the University of Paris. In 1215 CE, the study of Aristotle was banned. Fifteen years later, the Pope specifically prohibited the study of Averroes in Paris. But the forbidden intellectual fruit proved to be too enticing, and Averroes and Aristotle continued to be studied, despite further bans in 1270 CE and 1277 CE by Stephen Tempier, bishop of Paris. These “dangerous” ideas advocated a rational, secular perspective of the workings of the natural world and the human mind as against the dogmatic and authoritarian views of the religious hierarchy...
http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=105848


cheers!
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czgibson
12-29-2007, 07:00 PM
Greetings,

Thanks for your contribution, PA. Behind the insults, this one is actually quite useful, so you're making progress. Well done. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Already during his lifetime, Ibn Rushd’s commentaries were being translated into Latin in Toledo. In his Latin guise, Averroes became known as the Great Commentator. Such was his sway, that the Renaissance artist Raphael included him in his Vatican fresco of the School of Athens (1510-11 CE). But in 1210 CE, barely 12 years after Ibn Rushd’s death, the study of his commentaries was banned at the University of Paris. In 1215 CE, the study of Aristotle was banned. Fifteen years later, the Pope specifically prohibited the study of Averroes in Paris. But the forbidden intellectual fruit proved to be too enticing, and Averroes and Aristotle continued to be studied, despite further bans in 1270 CE and 1277 CE by Stephen Tempier, bishop of Paris. These “dangerous” ideas advocated a rational, secular perspective of the workings of the natural world and the human mind as against the dogmatic and authoritarian views of the religious hierarchy...



http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=105848

I said in my post that it was quite likely that the Pope did ban Averroes' works, just that I could find no evidence for it. What I did take issue with was the frankly bizarre idea that the Pope made this a principle of worship. The average churchgoer in the Middle Ages would not have been remotely interested in Averroes or even known who he was, so involving his ideas in worship would have been over the heads of most Christian worshippers of the time. Remember, this was a time when it was prohibited for members of the laity to have access to scripture in the vernacular, let alone to discuss the finer points of theology.

It now seems, from the information you've provided, that the Pope prohibited the study of Averroes in Paris. That's a start, but it's not the same as placing his opera omnia on the Index.

Still, thanks for your information - it's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

Peace
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guyabano
12-29-2007, 07:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
That's cool. People are bound to have different opinions. When one opinion is considered truth and the other false, that's what's not okay.

Salam.
you hit the nail on the head. That is exactly what the message is. In fact, this woman love Islam and she just want that us to learn to coexist, we accept each others different faith instead of just saying 'if you don't accept my God, you're an unbeliever'. But that is exactly what most muslims do. Note that in other religions, muslims are also disbelievers as in their eyes, they don't believe in 'their' god. Learn to accept other thinking people and become more tolerant, everybody !
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جوري
12-29-2007, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,
:rollseyes

Thanks for your contribution, PA. Behind the insults, this one is actually quite useful, so you're making progress. Well done. :)
Again coming from you, it gives my ego and morale a 50% boost. -- Yes indeed that is sarcasm!



I said in my post that it was quite likely that the Pope did ban Averroes' works, just that I could find no evidence for it.
here are your exact words
Second, the chap making the first response claims that the Pope issued a ban on the works of Ibn-Rushd, and included hatred of him as a part of Catholic worship. I can find no evidence for this, or even that Ibn-Rushd was placed on the Catholic Index of Prohibited Books (a perfectly ludicrous document if ever there was one, but that's another story),
I'd say it is rather embaressing to write in a manner and a degree that leaves so little room for doubt, then come water it down two pages later?.

What I did take issue with was the frankly bizarre idea that the Pope made this a principle of worship. The average churchgoer in the Middle Ages would not have been remotely interested in Averroes or even known who he was, so involving his ideas in worship would have been over the heads of most Christian worshippers of the time. Remember, this was a time when it was prohibited for members of the laity to have access to scripture in the vernacular, let alone to discuss the finer points of theology.
That is really of no concern to me and no relevance to the actual topic--fact is it happened, something you initially denied! using your position as a 'teacher' hoping that others will simply take your word for it as an authority figure, over our scholars-- those whom almost in the same breath you feel free to insult whenever opportune, yet are utterly outraged that your posts are met with the same degree of revolt!

It now seems, from the information you've provided, that the Pope prohibited the study of Averroes in Paris. That's a start, but it's not the same as placing his opera omnia on the Index.
The pope has always been a center of authority. I believe you often have a hard time reconciling the calibre of events for their historic period. Again a shame, but that is what often happens when one forgoes wonder and reason for materialism!

Still, thanks for your information - it's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

Peace
Glad to be of help :Evil:

cheers
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czgibson
12-29-2007, 07:37 PM
Greetings, PA,

I'm afraid you've misunderstood much of what I've written. Perhaps you could take more time over reading people's posts? That way you might not miss things all the time.

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
here are your exact words

I'd say it is rather embaressing to write in a manner and a degree that leaves so little room for doubt, then come water it down two pages later?.
What you've done here is the old quote-out-of-context trick. If you look at the whole sentence, you'll find this (nested, I admit, beneath perhaps too many subordinate clauses):

Second, the chap making the first response claims that the Pope issued a ban on the works of Ibn-Rushd, and included hatred of him as a part of Catholic worship. I can find no evidence for this, or even that Ibn-Rushd was placed on the Catholic Index of Prohibited Books (a perfectly ludicrous document if ever there was one, but that's another story), although he might well have been, as just about every other valuable intellectual work was.
You have actually deliberately removed those last two phrases in order to distort my meaning. Why?



That is really of no concern to me and no relevance to the actual topic--fact is it happened, something you initially denied!
I have never denied that it happened.
using your position as a 'teacher' hoping that others will simply take your word for it as an authority figure, over our scholars-- those whom almost in the same breath you feel free to insult whenever opportune, yet are utterly outraged that your posts are met with the same degree of revolt!
Amused, but rarely outraged. I was pretty shocked when you started going on about constipation for some reason the other day, though, I have to say.

I do feel free to insult these men, because they are in position of authority which they absolutely do not deserve. Neither of them could even structure a coherent argument, and I find the thought that many Muslims look up to them as intellectuals to be deeply disturbing.

The pope has always been a center of authority.
Correct. But the ban you refered to concerns Paris. I am simply wondering if it was a universal ban for Catholics or not. I'm not saying it can't have happened - in fact I think it is likely - I simply don't know.

I believe you often have a hard time reconciling the calibre of events for their historic period. Again a shame, but that is what often happens when one forgoes wonder and reason for materialism!
Why are you insulting my historical knowledge all of a sudden? I'm afraid it's you who have got it wrong this time.

Now, take a deep breath. Read this post again if you want to, just to make sure you're clear. Then, write reams of insults if you must, but please think carefully about what I've said before replying.

I'm still grateful for the information you provided, by the way.

Peace
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chosen
12-29-2007, 08:02 PM
seems like everyone is very passionate about what they feel...and that is fine..but I do agree with one thing that she said..what I believe is no ones business and what religion you believe in in none of my business...it is god that gave us free will...no man can take away from me what god has given..peace and respect must always win out..especailly in religious matters..because if they dont war will follow...more people have been killed in the name of god in history than for any other reason..we should all stop and ask ourselves if this makes god happy..
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جوري
12-29-2007, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings, PA,

I'm afraid you've misunderstood much of what I've written. Perhaps you could take more time over reading people's posts? That way you might not miss things all the time.
No. I misunderstood nothing, your intent is quite clear and not so subtle as you think.. at least to those of us more discerning!


What you've done here is the old quote-out-of-context trick. If you look at the whole sentence, you'll find this (nested, I admit, beneath perhaps too many subordinate clauses):
you enjoy that shadow and light technique? What you wrote first is your main objective, everything else is furnishing --you know for added support, so you don't come across like a complete ignoramus, just in case someone decides to take you up on the offer and do some auditing.. it would give you a roomy window for escape!


You have actually deliberately removed those last two phrases in order to distort my meaning. Why?
read above!


I have never denied that it happened.
Yes... just strongly opposed that it did?!

Amused, but rarely outraged. I was pretty shocked when you started going on about constipation for some reason the other day, though, I have to say.
Yes, I like our members happy and not constrained :)

I do feel free to insult these men, because they are in position of authority which they absolutely do not deserve. Neither of them could even structure a coherent argument, and I find the thought that many Muslims look up to them as intellectuals to be deeply disturbing.
and she is not in a position of authority? I think it rather abusive to use your title and position to foment public opinion if not down right lowely. They are Muslims scholars whose knowledge isn't limited but should heavily involve Islamic teaching and jurisprudence. What is a so-called 'psychologist' doing engaging in a religious or even a political debate?!

As for the 'non-coherency' portion.. well that is down right laughable, considering you were able to compose a fairly large piecenot only negating their sentiment but disturbed with what they had to say!
Incoherent folk tend to on street corners of the civilized west or in hospital beds with an IV infusion of what we call a 'banana bag' to salavge whatever is left of their 'mamillary body'


Correct. But the ban you refered to concerns Paris. I am simply wondering if it was a universal ban for Catholics or not. I'm not saying it can't have happened - in fact I think it is likely - I simply don't know.
The pope has held vast powers in the past --wars often broke out over 'papal infallibility' there was a time when there was rivalry on who is to come pope between, France and Italy, that is how much power and influence that position held!

Why are you insulting my historical knowledge all of a sudden? I'm afraid it's you who have got it wrong this time.
I don't believe I have and I have no problems admitting when I am wrong!

Now, take a deep breath. Read this post again if you want to, just to make sure you're clear. Then, write reams of insults if you must, but please think carefully about what I've said before replying.
What you deem 'reams of insults' is really nothing more than a taste of your own medicine!

I'm still grateful for the information you provided, by the way.

Peace
Thank you, I'll exercise my Islamic generosity by doubling your rep pts once I am able to do so..

cheers!
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BlackMamba
12-29-2007, 08:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
What you said was hate filled. Don't use religion to justify your hate.
Ya I do hate her she hates me so I hate her. Whats wrong with that.
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chosen
12-29-2007, 08:48 PM
whats wrong with that is hate does nothing but destroy...if you believe in god you have to learn to be different than the haters..my mom always said the best way to bring someone to know god..is to ALWAYS act in a respectful manner..
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wilberhum
12-29-2007, 09:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Shakoor15
Ya I do hate her she hates me so I hate her. Whats wrong with that.
If you don't understand the problems hate produces, you need to see some one.
You harm no one but yourself.

Hate is one of the most destructive forces in the world.

Do you think god wants you to hate? Do you think it pleases him?

Think twice before you embrace hate.
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Muezzin
12-29-2007, 09:17 PM
Don't give in to hate! That leads to the dark side.

And thread closure.

Play nice, everyone. :)
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caroline
12-29-2007, 09:36 PM
Hmmm...

I wonder if the people here who truly love God and are here to seek wisdom and understanding recognize the fact that there are some here who come only to stir up contention and to say things that are so blatantly ignorant and offensive that good people will lose their head and say things the agitators can use as fodder against them. It's a very old (and obvious) trick and responding to it is just playing into their hands.

It's called flaming. Some people call them trolls.

And yes, there is an ignore option on this forum.

Okay, now to respond to the person who posted the wafa sultan video. She was exposed as a fraud a long time ago.

Here's a decent article:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=6037
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chosen
12-29-2007, 09:43 PM
doesnt matter why they are here....what matters is why you are here..dont let them change the person you are..dont give them the power to create hate in you..when you do that..it is not your faith that controls you anymore..it is those who are trying to corrupt it..I am not muslim..but I have respect for you..and even if I disagree with something you write..even if it angers.upsets me I can not hate you...1) what good would that do..2) I was taught never to hate because it is wrong and actually causes more harm to the person hating than the person the hate is directed at..
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caroline
12-29-2007, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
doesnt matter why they are here....what matters is why you are here..dont let them change the person you are..dont give them the power to create hate in you..when you do that..it is not your faith that controls you anymore..it is those who are trying to corrupt it..I am not muslim..but I have respect for you..and even if I disagree with something you write..even if it angers.upsets me I can not hate you...1) what good would that do..2) I was taught never to hate because it is wrong and actually causes more harm to the person hating than the person the hate is directed at..
Well said, my friend... thank you.
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S_87
12-29-2007, 10:20 PM
Those were scholars? You're kidding me. Aren't scholars supposed to be intelligent? Neither of those two had the first clue about how to structure an argument, or respond in any convincing way to the points made! If they are a representative sample of the kind of person that Muslims are taught to look up to, then we really are in trouble. The ignorance, distortion and prejudice that they brought to the table makes them intellectually bankrupt.
the problem with the videos is that they arent full and we dont know which part is for what in the debate so it may not make sense. there are more parts available on youtube though..

I live in a house with central heating, clean running water and all mod cons. The great majority of people in the Middle Ages had none of these things. It would be fun to live in the Middle Ages for about a week, I would say (unless you were of a privileged class), but not for a lifetime.
yes 21st century facilites are also available in the muslim countries, i think she was talking more on middle age mentality.

Well, we disagree there. Anyone who thinks that beheading, for example, is a solution to anything is living in the past. This guy, for example:
no one should not go cut off peoples heads...

I think people on both sides of the debate would say that women deserve respect.
yup and i think she needs to realise that muslim women do feel respected. yes there are some who are truly oppressed by their men, but that is not because of islam. domestic violence and such exists all over the world.
second point if she means about women being veiled, well i as a veiled woman do not think i am treated as a beast or second class citizen, nor was i forced to do so. and i know many women who feel the same.

This argument is on the level of the playground: "Yeah, but you started it!" The question is what are we going to do about the situation NOW?
good question :(


Those wars are unjustified, and do not have the support of the great majority of people in the West. However, are you seriously suggesting that no Muslims have attacked non-Muslims?
yes they have, but they were without an 'amir' or leader. i can go and kill people in the name of islam, would i be justified? no 100%. can you call it a muslim problem and issue? no because i could just be some sick person.
but muslims do condemn those who kill civilians on our side, for example 11/9, 7/7, the madrid bombings without a doubt whoever did it was not right. but the problem is these people are unknown. they are given the title al-qaeda but we dont know who they are? anyhow they are wrong agreed.

She's not denying anyone freedom of speech, but if someone says something that is wrong or unjustifiable, then what is wrong with telling them they are wrong?
she is wrong because of the context in which she took the things. for exmaple ahlul kitab means people of the book, as in the Bible/Taurah. it has nothing to do without scientific and modern progress of today, but religious background.
as for her other quote it is from part of a verse in the first Surah of the Quran. to understand it one must know the history of islam..

She is not denying Muslims the right to believe what they want; she is talking about the insane acts of violence that are committed in the name of Islam all round the world.
shes looking at one side of the coin then

the jew point- yes she phrased it well but we know what she means :D

The destruction of the Buddha statues was one of the most reprehensible acts of cultural terrorism the world has ever seen. To destroy the sacred sites of the members of another religion is utterly wrong, no matter who is in charge.
we will agree to disagree on this point as there is more to it.


She's not insulting you, she's insulting the backwards mentality that leads to so much violence in our world.
exactly, how is it the muslim mentality thats the problem? is it only this mentality causing the violence and problems?
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chosen
12-29-2007, 10:32 PM
your very welcome
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alcurad
12-30-2007, 04:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
What in the world does her attitude have to do with the US providing aid to Israel? Of course some one with such great knowledge must know that the US also provides aid to Palestine.


Boy talk about hypocrisy. :uuh:


That is such a far reach you must be able to pick apples from the top of the tree.
yes it does 'aid' the palestinians somewhat, like by blocking every U.N resolution against israel, providing money etc to a faction while trying to marginalize the others, and never using the considerable leverage it has with the israeli government to stop the occupation and its related activities.
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alcurad
12-30-2007, 04:43 AM
i guess my reply is a tad bit late but i was busy till now,,,
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guyabano
12-30-2007, 09:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
She was exposed as a fraud a long time ago.

Here's a decent article:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=6037
she was not 'exposed' as a fraud. It is just somebody's opinion. Anyway, the link says it already : www.opiniononline.com

But to pretend, all what she said is wrong, is ... also wrong !
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:02 PM
guybano is a true joke, he says hopefully ppl will open their ears and listen and accept others from different faiths. LOL then he plays this idiot wafa sultan who publicly say Islam has to be banned, or changed, and by changed she means verses have to be removed from the Quran!!! wow what a walking hypocrite you are guybano, it is good you posted her though, i always knew you were dirt and this proves it, posting a video by a notorious filth like wafa sultan,,,,,and he says i have an agenda! pathetic.
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:07 PM
btw wafa sultan isnt a Muslim as this liar guybano claims....thats the trick though, they get these stupid arabs (Im Arab by the way) who cant even speak proper arabic, then they claim they are Muslims to try and decieve the real Muslims.

theres a new saying now, just because they eat falafel they think they know Islam!

these arab supposed 'apostates' are the biggest jokes, they were never Muslim...and why is it that none of them have EVER had a real formated debate? they would get humiliated if they ever wanted to debate, thats why they never do, they just go on fox news and spew their garbage for a 2 minute segment and thats it, just garbage propaganda.
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 03:10 PM
In this era, if a "Muslim" or "former Muslim" talk bad things about Islam he/she would be popular and rich...

But when a "New Muslim" or "Non Muslim" talk about good things in Islam, nobody cares but Muslims....:exhausted
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:11 PM
tell us guybano what is your agenda? comming to this Islamic forum and posting videos of the filth wafa sultan, the same lady who lies 24-7 about Islam, insults Muslims, calls for Islam to be banned, calls for the Quran to be changed, and then you praise her? so no, tell us, what is your agenda on this board??????? plz i would like to know, now dont spin this, you have been caught lying, u said wafa is a Muslim, shes not, she has openly stated shes not a Muslim, hence your first lie. then you said you like what she says about accepting other faiths, yet she has called for Islam to be banned, so why dont you come clean, whats your agenda? you have been caught lying not ONCE, but TWICE, so go on tell us.
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
My question is:
Did Muhammed say: “I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all people (non-Muslims) until they say, “No God except Allah” (as this lady is stating)???
Does the Qu'ran say so?
And if so, in which context???

I hope people here realise how very worrying statements like this are, especially in this forum, where others are so very keen to emphasize the peacefulness of Islam ...
It doesn't seem to add up!
Can somebody help me to understand?

Peace
there is no such Islamic text, it would help if your rep's werent such liars would it not? if you westerners are getting worried and paranoid because your leaders and reps are liars it is only to your own destruction and doom.

the text you misquote you and your sister in christ wafa, the text doesnt say FIGHT AND KILL, it just says fight, from where did you get the kill????????

Islamic history refutes you, when the prophet conquered Makkah he told the pagans he would let them remain pagans and they could live at peace, so what are you on about????? go learn Islam, this is BASICS....

now what does fight mean? well fight doesn't have to be physical only, fight is both physical and spiritual, when Muslims need to, then we will physically fight, however so the spiritual fight is the more important ones....

when Jesus in the Bible said come get my enemies and slay them etc etc, or when he said i come to cause separation between families what do Christians respond by? they say it doesn't mean physical! it means through knowledge, and the tongue, a spiritual battle between the truth and falsehood. hence why when it comes to Islam you don't allow such an interpretation and take the narrow brain-dead paranoid interpretation that the text simply means physical fighting? hmm how inconsistent you Christians are, and just shows your hypocrites.

so sad you Christians never bring any real arguments, every argument you have is based on lies, like this one, you cant even quote the text properly!!!!!!!!!!!!! now you didnt bring the argument up, your sister wafa in faith did, but you proceeded to believe it and say ooooooooooo this is so worrying how can you explain this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you should have asked does the text actually say that? then we move from there, but no,you asked if it does say that, but then you answer your own Q by assuming it might!!!!!!!!!! you should have just asked does it say that? then wait for the response before making your conclusions of ohhh WHAT IF it does, tut tut.............. you believe a liar, then argue a liars argument hence you yourself become the liar as well. that in a nutshell is Christianity as well (i.e. Paul).... :giggling::giggling:
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Bittersteel
12-30-2007, 03:35 PM
Well, we disagree there. Anyone who thinks that beheading, for example, is a solution to anything is living in the past.
maybe not for everything but for lots of things and lots of Non-Muslims(mostly Americans) agree with me.

can someone kindly write out in text what she actually said apart from quoting this piece of hadith?You tube doesn't work in my comp.
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guyabano
12-30-2007, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
guybano is a true joke, he says hopefully ppl will open their ears and listen and accept others from different faiths. LOL then he plays this idiot wafa sultan who publicly say Islam has to be banned, or changed, and by changed she means verses have to be removed from the Quran!!! wow what a walking hypocrite you are guybano, it is good you posted her though, i always knew you were dirt and this proves it, posting a video by a notorious filth like wafa sultan,,,,,and he says i have an agenda! pathetic.
Hmmm, I take this as a compliment. Yes, nice to see you too. Thank God, you are not a muslim, as I basically have a good opinion about them. But as I said, judging you to the behavior you show up here like contributing to the topic, you can't be a muslim.

Peace to you
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jzcasejz
12-30-2007, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hmmm, I take this as a compliment. Yes, nice to see you too. Thank God, you are not a muslim, as I basically have a good opinion about them. But as I said, judging you to the behavior you show up here like contributing to the topic, you can't be a muslim.
Don't play dumb, you know he's a Muslim.

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
as I basically have a good opinion about them.
Yeah, which is you personally regard what Wafa Sultan said as the truth. :rollseyes
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czgibson
12-31-2007, 02:51 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't believe I have and I have no problems admitting when I am wrong!
Except in this case, it would seem. PA, I really hope that one day you learn to debate properly. It's a shame to waste your (undoubted) intelligence with pointless rants like this.

format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
Okay, now to respond to the person who posted the wafa sultan video. She was exposed as a fraud a long time ago.

Here's a decent article:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=6037
This sounds interesting. In what way was this woman exposed as a fraud? (For the benefit of PA: this doesn't amount to denying that it happened - I'm just looking for evidence.)

The article you posted relates to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I'm not really sure how it relates to Wafa Sultan being a fraud.

Peace
Reply

mariam.
01-02-2008, 11:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
My question is:
Did Muhammed say: “I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all people (non-Muslims) until they say, “No God except Allah” (as this lady is stating)???
Does the Qu'ran say so?
And if so, in which context???

I hope people here realise how very worrying statements like this are, especially in this forum, where others are so very keen to emphasize the peacefulness of Islam ...
It doesn't seem to add up!
Can somebody help me to understand?

Peace
peace be upon you glo, How are you?
By the way, do you buy a gift for your neighbors :D ?

Ok, you ask about this hadith .. “I have been ordered by Allah to fight all people (non-Muslims) until they say, ‘No God except Allah’” (Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim).

glo, I want you to understand some thing, To me as moslem I can't said that prophet Mohammad peace be upon him was mistaken when he said that because he didn't said some thing befor God order him to said.

So, when you read Quran and find a verse which show apparently the wisdom behind fight then we can said that we didn't understand this hadith correctly, because Quran is the first provenance from legislation provenance.

this hadith explain why we ordered to fight .. "And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors"(Quran1:190)

So, when you read this verse and that hadith, always remamber that they complement each other.

I hope these Quote help you sister :statisfie

Allah says in his Noble Qur'an:
" Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidence, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land! " (5:38)

In another ayah Allah mentions some qualities of His righteous slaves as He says what can be translated as :
" And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such person as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse - and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. " (25:68)

Moreover, there are many Prophetical Ahadith where the Prophet Peace be upon him calls believers to respect and to protect the humanitarian life. So he said that killing a person is one of the greatest sins ,which the polytheism and killing the life and He also said, "A faithful believer remains within the sphere of his religion unless he kills somebody unlawfully".

Fighting in Islam was legitimated basically to prevent transgression, Allah says what can be translated as, " And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. " (1:190,191).

The Noble Qur'an has given Muslims the legislative right of defense, Allah says what can be translated as, " And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.". (1: 190-194).

Islam gave the permission of war to ward off aggression against Muslims, So Allah says what can be translated as : " Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged; and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, Allah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty." (22:39,40)

Also Allah says what can be translated as: " And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allah), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for (the patient). " (16: 126).

Islam has given Muslims the permission to fight against treacherous and those who broke the treaties of Conventions that were made between Islamic countries and other countries. Regarding this, Allah says what can be translated as, " Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve. So they shall not believe. They are those with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson " (8 :55,58).

Allah says what can be translated as, " With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors. But if they repent, perform As-Salât (prayer) , and give Zakât (charity), then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism, then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah), and intended to expel the Messenger while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
(9:10,14).

Islam also has permitted war for the sake of saving and upholding the oppressed people. Allah says what can be translated as, " And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help. " (4:75)

and He says what can be translated as, " Verily, those who believed, and emigrated and strove hard and fought with their property and their lives in the Cause of Allah as well as those who gave (them) asylum and help, - these are (all) allies to one another. And as to those who believed but did not emigrate (to you O Muhammad), you owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate; but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance; and Allah is the All-Seer of what you do. And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khalifa (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allah's religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)." (8:72,73).

Furthermore, In two prophetical Hadiths , Prophet peace be upon him gave advice to both Ali Ibn-Abu-Taleb and Mu'adh Ibn-Jabal in two different battles saying, "Don't fight them until you invite them to Islam. if they refuse, don't begin fighting until they kill one from you. Then, show them this killed Muslim and say, don't you accept what is much better than fighting ?!! it is to testify that there is no god but Allah (faith confession in Islam ) because, if Allah guides one man on your hands, this will be better than having all what on the whole earth".

In all his battles, the Prophet peace be upon him advised the army leaders and said, "Go ahead in the name of Allah, and by the blessing of his Messenger. Don't kill an old man, or a child, or a young person or a woman. Don't betray. Act in the Right way, and do good, truly Allah loves the good-doers". And He forbade also mutilating dead bodies as he said: " I warn you of mutilating the killed, even if it was a slaughter dog". He (SAWS) said also: " Don't kill women, or children, or those who are in the monasteries."

Also Abu-Bakr Al Siddiq (the verifier ), the 1st caliph to Muslims advised the first military expedition's leader in his era, Osama Bin Zaid saying: "Don't betray. Don't take illegally a part of booty. Don't mutilate the dead bodies. Don't kill a child, or an old man, or a woman. Do not cut down or burn palm trees and don't cut down a fruity tree. Don't slaughter a sheep, or a cow or a camel except for food. You will find on your way people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves".
In his advice to his army leader headed for al-sham (The Levant), Abu-Bakr said to Abu-Bakr Yazed Ibn-Abu-Sufyan adding to what was said before " And never fight a wounded man, because a part of him is not his(likening the wounded part to the dead which is not to be put to torture at your hands ) . Speak a little as it suffices you what people have understood from you Accept people 's public deeds and entrust their secrets to Allah. Don't confine your soldiers, lest you should disgrace them ; don't neglect them, because you may spoil them. I place you in the trust of Allah, whose trust is never misplaced."

In addition, The Caliph Omar Ibnul-Khattab has advised his leader of the army saying: " Go In the name of Allah, and with His help. Go with Allah's support. You'll have victory by staying in the battle and being patient. Fight and transgress not the limits, truly Allah likes not the transgressors. Don't be coward when meeting the enemy. Never mutilate when you've the ability to do so. Don't exceed the limits in the matter of taking life when you're the winners. Don't kill an old man, or a woman, or a child and avoid killing them as much as possible and when the heat of the battle grows and becomes fiercer , make your fight only for the sake of God not for vainglory of this life ,then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme "

These Commandments in Jihad (war) ethics are more exalted, more perfect, more righteous, and more gracious than all what human's legislation contains. Hence, it's more higher than what the rules of modern international law in general reached and international humanitarian law in particular
There's a great difference between Islam's ethics in war and what is happening in Palestine for more than half a century, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Chechnya. In the name of what they destruct houses over the heads of their residents ,be it old men, children, or women?. It's in the name of democracy and reform?

Let Arab marines and hypocrites read those commandments to realize that, they sold the Hereafter for a cheap false world. The world that is not equal a mosquito's wing. Let Muslims' jurists in the international law raise their heads very high and say to the West and its jurists: "this is our religion which speaks the truth since more than fourteen centuries. The religion that legislate, formulate, and implement what you didn't reach in the century of Human rights and civilization.

Moreover, Islam has put a clear way in dealing with prisoners of war. This way has the essence of honor, preserve the dignity of the prisoner, and the maintenance of his life. In Qur'an there's many ayas that exhort us to honor war prisoners.
Allah almighty says what can be translated as, "After this, it is you who kill one another and drive out a party of you from their homes, assist (their enemies) against them, in sin and transgression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their expulsion was forbidden to you. Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do." (2:85).

Also Allah almighty says what can be translated as:" O Prophet (Muhammad) Say to the captives that are in your hands! "If Allah knows any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "(8:70,71).

In Allah says what can be translated as, "And they give food, inspite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the poor, the orphan, and the captive"
(76:8).

On the other hand, if we look to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him either what the Prophet said or did or agreed to during his life, we'll find it very much and need volumes but we'll refer only to the most important of it. As he said : " Fear God regarding prisoners of war" / "Take care of prisoners of war"


The messenger of Allah peace be upon him has forbidden harming or doing any injustice to prisoners of war as the Hadith says , "on the authority of Shihab as he said," Accompanied by a prisoners of wars , Abo-Baker once passed by Sohib while he was sitting in the mosque , on seeing him , Sohib said " who is this with you ? " "He is a prisoner of war ; I am going to ask the prophet's protection for him " replied Abo-Baker . " there seem to be what could be the effect of a sword in his neck !!" Said Sohib ; Abo-Bakr got angry as a result and headed to the prophet ; on seeing him as so , prophet Mohummed said " why are you angry ?" " I passed with my prisoner by Sohib ,who said he saw the sign of a sword in my prisoner's neck " prophet Mohummed said " Mind you didn't cause him any harm !!" Abo Bakr said " I swear by God , I didn't ."If you had harmed him . you would have disobeyed and displeased God and His messenger ." prophet Mohummed said .

Look to the difference between that and what's happening in the prison of Gwantanamo and Abu-Ghraib, in Palestine, in Iraq, and in Chechnya! Also look to what's happening in some other countries prisons. Tell me, where are Human Rights in that!!?.

In Islam even the killed persons have rights. In battles, the unbelievers corpse must be buried and never be let in streets until animals eat them, as we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan now .

This is just a few of the many and a drop of water in the Islam's wide ocean of generosity . I mention this to distinguish between the right path and the wrong one, the Truth and the falsehood, and the difference between our civilization and their civilization.Also to make those who have brain and heart to understand.
peace
Reply

The_Prince
01-02-2008, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hmmm, I take this as a compliment. Yes, nice to see you too. Thank God, you are not a muslim, as I basically have a good opinion about them. But as I said, judging you to the behavior you show up here like contributing to the topic, you can't be a muslim.

Peace to you
lol you take it as a compliment that you have been exposed as a liar? indeed you do cause your a little devil and only devils feel complimented for being liars, thanks for proving im right!

heck your response says it all, erm wait a minute, NO RESPONSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just because im rough and hard when i expose liars doesnt mean im bad, i count that as a good thing for me personally that when i crush liars like you i dont go soft on them, soft isnt my route thank you very much..........

now tell us, why did you LIE and say shes a Muslim when she has openly said she isnt? why did you LIE and say shes good because she says we should accept others of different faiths when she says Islam should be banned, or the Quran changed? so instead of blabbering more garbage do something you have never done, RESPOND. you cant respond cause your too stubborn to say ok ok i was wrong mr the_prince, hehe you cant admit that i have refuted your lies, and i loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee that, go grit your teeh :eek:
Reply

guyabano
01-03-2008, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
lol you take it as a compliment that you have been exposed as a liar? indeed you do cause your a little devil and only devils feel complimented for being liars, thanks for proving im right!

heck your response says it all, erm wait a minute, NO RESPONSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just because im rough and hard when i expose liars doesnt mean im bad, i count that as a good thing for me personally that when i crush liars like you i dont go soft on them, soft isnt my route thank you very much..........

now tell us, why did you LIE and say shes a Muslim when she has openly said she isnt? why did you LIE and say shes good because she says we should accept others of different faiths when she says Islam should be banned, or the Quran changed? so instead of blabbering more garbage do something you have never done, RESPOND. you cant respond cause your too stubborn to say ok ok i was wrong mr the_prince, hehe you cant admit that i have refuted your lies, and i loveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee that, go grit your teeh :eek:
If you like to crush something, crush peanuts. It calm down your nerfs. Tell me when you are finished blowing up your chest like a rooster. I love this kind of kiddie-tantruming. Nothing to contribute in threads exept trolling around.

You badly need a life
Reply

ricardo_sousa
01-03-2008, 02:28 PM
the woman did point some valid points. But the way she put her arguments, made her lose any change of taking her serious.

I prefer this video, another option of an Arab woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfhZpW_tGbc
Reply

thinktank
01-03-2008, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
It might be, that this woman tend to be too much extremist, speaking immediately about rationality and barbarism. But there is a saying: 'Where is a smoke, there is also somewhere a fire'. There are a few true words in her speech, which muslims don't like to hear and love to protest against. But instead of always taking this defending position/attitude, DO something against it.
Examples would be, muslims terrorists. It's only in this religion where this actually happen. It's only muslims who call everybody who doesn't accept Allah as their God 'Unbelievers'. Neither in Buddism, Taoism, Christianity, Jews, you find this term.
Me, as an non-muslim, I really try to understand muslims. Most of them are not really ready to actively do something against it, but prefer the ducking position. I just give an example: I posted in the Joke room a thread about stupid terrorists, but curiously, nobody comment. Fact is, if muslims would support actions against terrorists, at least they would have had a good chuckle and laugh about it. But no, silence... so what does that let think an non-muslim ?

And then the words from Ansar Al-'Adl 'Where the heck are you?' doesn't make things better as everybody can read out of these words what he means by saying that. Shameful !
there are several flaws in your statement, firstly its not only muslims who have done these terrorist crimes, the founding of israel was done by a group of terrorists, the nation was finaly formed after so many attacks were done against the british by the jews who were there at a time because they felt it was a god given right for them to be there, this is a long a deep topic but do your research and youll see that israel was founded by terrorism.

Also ETA the spanish group commit terrorism, the Hindus of sri lanka, (tamils) the list is quite big, buts its only muslims who the media focus on.

also back to the topics of calling people, well if you look at the jewish scriptures ie the talmud which btw was written by many babylonian rabbis talks about non jews as genitles (this is very well known) and if you keep readinf the rights jews have over gentiles is quite ghastly. they also belive that everyone who isnt a jew will burn in hell for eternity and jews wont, if any jew has been a bad boy he will stay in hell for only 40days max and then eneter paradise. so my point is, its just muslims who get the ruff end of media exposure and hence your judgement is clouded, if you really studied all the beliefs in detail of judaism, chrisndom etc youl be quite suprised!
Reply

guyabano
01-03-2008, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thinktank
there are several flaws in your statement, firstly its not only muslims who have done these terrorist crimes, the founding of israel was done by a group of terrorists, the nation was finaly formed after so many attacks were done against the british by the jews who were there at a time because they felt it was a god given right for them to be there, this is a long a deep topic but do your research and youll see that israel was founded by terrorism.

Also ETA the spanish group commit terrorism, the Hindus of sri lanka, (tamils) the list is quite big, buts its only muslims who the media focus on.

also back to the topics of calling people, well if you look at the jewish scriptures ie the talmud which btw was written by many babylonian rabbis talks about non jews as genitles (this is very well known) and if you keep readinf the rights jews have over gentiles is quite ghastly. they also belive that everyone who isnt a jew will burn in hell for eternity and jews wont, if any jew has been a bad boy he will stay in hell for only 40days max and then eneter paradise. so my point is, its just muslims who get the ruff end of media exposure and hence your judgement is clouded, if you really studied all the beliefs in detail of judaism, chrisndom etc youl be quite suprised!
I didn't say, that Jews are angels, neither Christians. But fact is, when I consider the last 20 years, MOST of terrorist acts have been commited by terrorists in the name of Islam. (Note that I didn't use the word 'Muslims' !)
Anyway, that is what the woman speak about. She didn't talk about cruisades, or the past centuries. She speak, what's going on actually.
You say, I should not judge so fast, well, I don't judge, I just give my opinion.
I just repeat my initial answer: She speak a little bit too much extremist, but words in her speech speek the truth out. Well, which truth, that is the question. Anymway, everybody has a different 'truth'
Reply

crayon
01-03-2008, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
the woman did point some valid points. But the way she put her arguments, made her lose any change of taking her serious.

I prefer this video, another option of an Arab woman:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfhZpW_tGbc
I haven't watched the video yet (it's still loading, hate my slow internet!!), but the description at the right is utter bull----. If the video is just describing the same thing, then it probably is too.
Reply

ricardo_sousa
01-03-2008, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I haven't watched the video yet (it's still loading, hate my slow internet!!), but the description at the right is utter bull----. If the video is just describing the same thing, then it probably is too.
yes, lol, the title of the movie is a bit "sensationalist", but it movie itself is not. Is very balanced and well discussed.
Reply

- Qatada -
01-03-2008, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I haven't watched the video yet (it's still loading, hate my slow internet!!), but the description at the right is utter bull----. If the video is just describing the same thing, then it probably is too.

:salamext:


I would proper urge you to watch the males part, subhan Allah it's just amazing! All of what he said is so true and deep.
Reply

crayon
01-03-2008, 06:09 PM
I'll address the points the lady in the second video brought forth one by one.

1-"Women are being oppressed in sharia courts". There are no sharia courts that correctly implement the sharia today, not even Saudi Arabia. It's their culture and beliefs packaged with the label of "sharia". Therefore, women are being oppressed by their corrupt government, not sharia.

2-"Mut'ah marriage is allowed" No, it is not. Only shiaa practice this, by people who follow the sunna it is completely forbidden.

3-"Having sex with an infant is allowed" Um, are you freaking kidding me? First of all, you can't have sex outside of marriage. In islam, you can't marry (and by marry I mean consumate the marriage, ie have sexual intercourse with) someone who has not reached puberty, and you can not marry someone without their consent. A two year old has neither reached puberty, nor can she give consent. (oh,as for "those who never had menses", it's like how the prophet married Aisha when she was 6, and consumated the marriage when she reached her menses at 9. You can not have sex with someone who has not reached puberty. If the prophet (pbuh) had wanted to divorce Aisha before she had reached her menses ie BEFORE he had sex with her, her waiting period would have been 3 months.)

4-"The woman is a prisoner in her home, can't study, has to look after the kids, etc." Again, are you kidding me? CULTURE with the label of islam. Woman are required to seek knowledge, she is perfectly capable of going to school and university. In islam she is obviously allowed to go out of her house and do whatever she wants (as long as it's not haram of course). She even says it herself "These are women whose families are extremist". Yeah, because that's exactly what islam preaches, being extreme. Islam teaches moderation, if people want to twist it around, that's their problem, not islam's. "They force them to marry against their will". Again, if the husband and wife do not give their consent to the marriage, it is NOT A VALID MARRIAGE.

Just to add, I found this woman 1000 times more respectable than wafa sultan.
Reply

crayon
01-03-2008, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:salamext:


I would proper urge you to watch the males part, subhan Allah it's just amazing! All of what he said is so true and deep.
Salam brother.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, exactly..?
Reply

- Qatada -
01-03-2008, 06:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Salam brother.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, exactly..?

:wasalamex


I just meant watch the shaykhs part insha Allah. It's really interesting.
Reply

crayon
01-03-2008, 06:26 PM
Oooh, you're talking about the first video, right?
I did, they're very interesting.

I was referring to another video that ricardo_sousa posted, though.

Salam. :]
Reply

The_Prince
01-04-2008, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
If you like to crush something, crush peanuts. It calm down your nerfs. Tell me when you are finished blowing up your chest like a rooster. I love this kind of kiddie-tantruming. Nothing to contribute in threads exept trolling around.

You badly need a life
lol your so funny, no responses yet again.

i have a very nice life thank you very much. :thumbs_up
Reply

Amadeus85
01-04-2008, 03:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
I'll address the points the lady in the second video brought forth one by one.

1-"Women are being oppressed in sharia courts". There are no sharia courts that correctly implement the sharia today, not even Saudi Arabia. It's their culture and beliefs packaged with the label of "sharia". Therefore, women are being oppressed by their corrupt government, not sharia.

2-"Mut'ah marriage is allowed" No, it is not. Only shiaa practice this, by people who follow the sunna it is completely forbidden.

3-"Having sex with an infant is allowed" Um, are you freaking kidding me? First of all, you can't have sex outside of marriage. In islam, you can't marry (and by marry I mean consumate the marriage, ie have sexual intercourse with) someone who has not reached puberty, and you can not marry someone without their consent. A two year old has neither reached puberty, nor can she give consent. (oh,as for "those who never had menses", it's like how the prophet married Aisha when she was 6, and consumated the marriage when she reached her menses at 9. You can not have sex with someone who has not reached puberty. If the prophet (pbuh) had wanted to divorce Aisha before she had reached her menses ie BEFORE he had sex with her, her waiting period would have been 3 months.)

4-"The woman is a prisoner in her home, can't study, has to look after the kids, etc." Again, are you kidding me? CULTURE with the label of islam. Woman are required to seek knowledge, she is perfectly capable of going to school and university. In islam she is obviously allowed to go out of her house and do whatever she wants (as long as it's not haram of course). She even says it herself "These are women whose families are extremist". Yeah, because that's exactly what islam preaches, being extreme. Islam teaches moderation, if people want to twist it around, that's their problem, not islam's. "They force them to marry against their will". Again, if the husband and wife do not give their consent to the marriage, it is NOT A VALID MARRIAGE.

Just to add, I found this woman 1000 times more respectable than wafa sultan.
That is quite true actually.In muslim world girls make up often majority of students.Things are changing.
Reply

Jayda
01-04-2008, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hello,

an arab woman has the guts to speak out, what many other people think in silence. May she find some open ears.
The message I like most is 'Accept other for their different faith' .
So far, peace to all

hola guyabano,

i have seen her many times on the internet... usually from christians or other non muslims who hate islam...

i think it's important to remember that while she does have some excellent points, they are really a refutation of her culture rather than (as she believes) her religion. i know a lot of muslims seem to believe that what happens in arab states is a kind of hybrid between islam and prestanding cultural eccentricities that have developed over the centuries and have been taken for granted as orthodoxy, my friend wrote an interesting article on a useful analagous concept (that i think he used for his friday khutbah).

i'm certain that many people, when they present this video, are perfectly aware that much of what she is angry with is culture and not religion... but the implication when this is posted, is that it is a refutation of islam. that's not terribly fair and i think it's academically dishonest...

all the same... i do feel one of her most interesting arguments was about islam dividing and categorizing people... kaffir and believer, etc. that was one of the most disturbing things that jumped out at me when i read the quran. muslims are not usually interested in discussing negative opinions of islam... i've not had the time to ask any of my questions, but all the same i do tend to think that they would be regarded as attacks rather than questions. the presenter (i can't remember her name... it begins with S i think) also seems aware of muslims sensitivity over the topic... which is why it is surprising to me that she choose to rant instead of present her points or questions in a more appropriate manner... that does not seem like the conduct of an academic, or a person genuinely interested in just 'flushing out the issues,' rather it is the conduct of somebody who has an agenda...

que Dios te bendiga
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chacha_jalebi
01-04-2008, 05:41 PM
this thread has become more boring then watching paint dry . .

and it has gone severely off topic!!

also both sides of the argument are in there

no more info needed :threadclo
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