Malaysian row over word for 'God'

[Uthman]

A church and Christian newspaper in Malaysia are suing the government after it decreed that the word "Allah" can only be used by Muslims.

In the Malay language "Allah" is used to mean any god, and Christians say they have used the term for centuries.

Opponents of the ban say it is unconstitutional and unreasonable.
It is the latest in a series of religious rows in largely Muslim Malaysia, where minority groups claim their rights are being eroded.

A spokesman for the Herald, the newspaper of the Catholic Church in Malaysia, said a legal suit was filed after they received repeated official warnings that the newspaper could have its licence revoked if it continued to use the word.

"We are of the view that we have the right to use the word 'Allah'," said editor Rev Lawrence Andrew.

'Unlawful'

The Sabah Evangelical Church of Borneo has also taken legal action after a government ministry moved to ban the import of religious children's books containing the word.

In a statement given to Reuters news agency, the church said the translation of the bible in which the word Allah appears has been used by Christians since the earliest days of the church.

There has been no official government comment but parliamentary opposition leader Lim Kit Siang said the decision to ban the word for non-Muslims on security grounds was "unlawful".

"The term 'Allah' was used to refer to God by Arabic-speaking Christians before Arabic-speaking Muslims existed," he said.

Religious issues are highly sensitive in Malaysia, which has a 60% Muslim population.

Religious freedom is guaranteed in the law but minority groups have accused the Muslim Malay majority of trying to increase the role of Islam in the country.

Source

[Muslim Knight]

UMNO, the Malay-based ruling party, has been losing support of the Malay Muslim populace to its main rival PAS, the largest Islamist party here. This latest furore over the use of God's name is UMNO's latest card in the political game in order to regain the favor of the Malay Muslims.

They are only doing so to be seen as the champion of the Malays who are largely Muslims where Islam is the racial identity of the Malays and apostates are often seen as unbecoming of a Malay.

It's pretty disgusting to note that, while Iblis the Reprobate tries so hard to remove the name Allah from our lips and remembrance, a Malay Muslim is actually doing him a favor by banning the use of the name Allah as substitute for God.

Sometimes I think not Christians, Jews or Hindus, but we Muslims who are the only real enemies of Islam.

[Uthman]

:sl:

Sometimes I think not Christians, Jews or Hindus, but we Muslims who are the only real enemies of Islam.

So true. May Allah guide us all to the right path.

:w:

[north_malaysian]

Malaysian Islamists - It's not wrong for the Christians to use the term "Allah".

By Azamin Amin

KUALA LUMPUR: The Head of Pan Malaysian Islamic Party's (PAS) Ulema Council, Dato' Mohamed Daud Iraqi had given an explanation that it is not wrong for the Christians and Jews to use the term "Allah" as it was being used by the Christians and Jews for centuries.

"It is just that if 'Allah' is associated with an act of worship which involves 'shirk' like making Him into two or three entities, thus it would be against the religion and sharia law and it is forbidden for Muslims to indulge with it; but it is alright if it is refering to the same God", he said when contacted by Harakah.

The controversial involving the term "Allah" arised when the official newsletter of the Malaysian Catholic Church, Herald The Catholic Weekly used the term "Allah" with reference to "God" in the Malay Language section of the newsletter.

The owner of the newsletter is also facing difficulties in renewing the publishing permit because of that issue.

According to the Deputy Minister of Internal Security Affairs, Dato' Johari Baharom, the decision was made after analysing the report submitted to the Department of Publishing Control of the ministry.

"Herald can use other terms but not "Allah"; as it would make the public confused", Johari said.

By explaining further, Mohamed said that, even the Koranic verses proclaim that the Non-Muslims adhered to the oneness of God and the creation of this world by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala including the usage of the term "Allah".

In the mean time, he stressed that if Herald has an agenda like confusing the public that "Allah" is also pleased with their religion, then it's forbidden.

According to him, Islam recognises Christianity and Judaism as "Heavenly Religion" (Samawi) but after Prophet Muhammad brought Islam, those heavenly religions were abrogated by Islam.

The newsletter published an article in the Malay Language Section last May under the title "Kasih Allah: Tidak Membeza-Bezakan" ("Love of Allah: Would Never Differentiate") of page 23 of the newsletter seems trying to influence the Malays who are adherents of Islam, especially the teenagers.

Herald is published by The Archbishop of Kuala Lumpur on behalf of The Bishops of Peninsular Malaysia, based in Petaling Jaya.

Translated from Malay Language.

Source: Harakah (22nd Zulhijjah 1428 - 6th Muharram 1429 / 1st - 15th January 2008), page 2

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[The_Prince]

Malaysian Islamists - It's not wrong for the Christians to use the term "Allah".

By Azamin Amin

KUALA LUMPUR: The Head of Pan Malaysian Islamic Party's (PAS) Ulema Council, Dato' Mohamed Daud Iraqi had given an explanation that it is not wrong for the Christians and Jews to use the term "Allah" as it was being used by the Christians and Jews for centuries.

"It is just that if 'Allah' is associated with an act of worship which involves 'shirk' like making Him into two or three entities, thus it would be against the religion and sharia law and it is forbidden for Muslims to indulge with it; but it is alright if it is refering to the same God", he said when contacted by Harakah.

The controversial involving the term "Allah" arised when the official newsletter of the Malaysian Catholic Church, Herald The Catholic Weekly used the term "Allah" with reference to "God" in the Malay Language section of the newsletter.

The owner of the newsletter is also facing difficulties in renewing the publishing permit because of that issue.

According to the Deputy Minister of Internal Security Affairs, Dato' Johari Baharom, the decision was made after analysing the report submitted to the Department of Publishing Control of the ministry.

"Herald can use other terms but not "Allah"; as it would make the public confused", Johari said.

By explaining further, Mohamed said that, even the Koranic verses proclaim that the Non-Muslims adhered to the oneness of God and the creation of this world by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala including the usage of the term "Allah".

In the mean time, he stressed that if Herald has an agenda like confusing the public that "Allah" is also pleased with their religion, then it's forbidden.

According to him, Islam recognises Christianity and Judaism as "Heavenly Religion" (Samawi) but after Prophet Muhammad brought Islam, those heavenly religions were abrogated by Islam.

The newsletter published an article in the Malay Language Section last May under the title "Kasih Allah: Tidak Membeza-Bezakan" ("Love of Allah: Would Never Differentiate") of page 23 of the newsletter seems trying to influence the Malays who are adherents of Islam, especially the teenagers.

Herald is published by The Archbishop of Kuala Lumpur on behalf of The Bishops of Peninsular Malaysia, based in Petaling Jaya.

Translated from Malay Language.

Source: Harakah (22nd Zulhijjah 1428 - 6th Muharram 1429 / 1st - 15th January 2008), page 2

lol, this is funny, we should save this article and give it to western anti-Islamics who so eagerly claim Allah is a moon god and shouldn't be used, here we have Christians DEMANDING they have the right to use the word Allah in their christian faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Uthman]

Similarities in the faiths not unusual

On The Beat: By WONG CHUN WAI

The similarities in Islam, Christianity and Judaism are expected because these religions originated from the same area and the people share many cultural, sociological and anthropological traits.

IT’S odd that it should even become an issue but the matter has now gone to the courts following the unprecedented suits by two church groups against the Government for prohibiting the word Allah to be used.

Last week, the Catholic Herald filed a suit against the Government for banning the word to be used in the weekly’s Bahasa Malaysia section.

The suit was made after the Herald, published by the Catholic archbishop of Kuala Lumpur, was issued a series of directives by the Internal Security Ministry for the publication to cease the use of the word Allah, failing which the publication’s permit could either be suspended or revoked.

Other than the Bahasa Malaysia segment, the weekly also has the English, Chinese and Tamil segments for its members.

The Sidang Injil Borneo (SIB) church and its president have also sought a judicial review against the ministry for its decision to stop the church from importing Christian books which contain the word Allah.

Deputy Internal Security Minister Datuk Johari Baharum has reportedly justified the action by saying the decision was taken to prevent confusion as the word Allah could only be used in the context of Islam and not other religions.

He was quoted as saying that “only Muslims can use Allah, it’s a Muslim word, you see. The word Allah is published by the Catholics, it’s not right.”

As someone who knows Johari, I find him amicable, approachable and helpful but I believe he has only taken a political perspective on this issue.

With due respect, I do not think Johari has taken into account the linguistic and historical issue of the subject. He probably made the decision on the advice of middle and lower-level officials and we hope he will review this decision, which has caused unnecessary discontent.

Beautiful greeting

Anyone travelling across the Middle East can tell you that tourists would be greeted with “Assalamualaikum”, even among Christian Arabs, but

Malaysians are told that it is for use exclusively among Muslims. Even the Arabs are perplexed by this.

“Peace be upon you” is such a beautiful and meaningful greeting, and we wish for it to be used by Malaysians of all races. It is also such a positive introduction to the world of Islam, where followers wish others well.

The Arabs prefer salam, as with the Malays here, while the Jews use shalom. There is no religious context in such greetings.

If you take a copy of the Arabic bible, you will find that Allah is used as a reference to God in the Christian perspective. It’s not something new as it has been in existence for centuries. In fact, the Christian usage of the word predates Islam.

This Arabic word is the closest equivalent to the English word God. In Hebrew and Aramaic, the language used by Jesus, the word used for God was “El” or “Elah”.

Christians in Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, Indonesia and many parts of Africa with huge Muslim communities have used the word with no problems.

In fact, the Church of Nativity where Jesus was born is located at the Palestinian side and Muslim leaders have no problems attending the church mass annually, as part of the respect accorded to the church.

I made my pilgrimage to Jerusalem some years back and it was an eye-opener for me to see most of the biblical sites at the Palestinian-run territory. A Muslim holds the keys to the Church of Nativity because of the factional fight between church groups.

It is common to see Palestinian Muslims and Christians selling church souvenirs, including crosses and rosaries, to pilgrims side by side.

The ministry has obviously decided that Allah is exclusive to Islam, seeing it as a security issue, but times have changed. They have no reason to fear that Malaysians would be confused. In fact, the ministry’s decision is confusing.

SIB president Pastor Jerry W.A. Dusing has said, in court documents, that the word Allah was used in the first complete Malay Bible in 1733 and the second complete Bible in 1879.

The ministry has stirred up a subject which should be left alone, as it has been for centuries. A new generation of Malaysians, more fluent in Bahasa Malaysia than English, has emerged because of our own policy.

Sermons in churches are increasingly conducted in the Malay language, simply because the younger congregation are no longer fluent in English.

Indonesians, mostly foreign workers, are attending church services in huge numbers alongside Malaysians. If Christian books cannot be in Bahasa

Malaysia, then it has got to come from Indonesia and Singapore. The dilemma is that the Bahasa Indonesia translated Bible uses the word Allah and Indonesia has more Muslims than Malaysia but it’s not a problem there.

Information Minister Datuk Seri Zainuddin Maidin is right. He has consistently reminded Malaysians that Bahasa Malaysia is not exclusively for Malays. The same applies to Arabic words.

But I believe our Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi is a fair man. He has been open-minded enough to attend Christmas gatherings and it was him who lifted the ban on the Iban-language Bible, revoking an Internal Security Ministry order.

Pak Lah must have listened to the views of both Muslims and Christians by now and certainly he serves as a good appellant.

It would be good if the church could meet Pak Lah, express their feelings and possibly withdraw the suits. They could also give an assurance that these books and publications will be used only for their members.

Challenging tasks

The impasse has to end and as we usher in the new year, let us remember there are bigger and more challenging tasks ahead of us. Surely, the ministry has more issues to handle than to create a linguistic controversy with religious connotations.

It is good that the controversy has been handled in a rational and calm manner. Many Malaysians, in fact, do not see the need for it to crop up in the first place, and we sometimes need to remind ourselves that we should not see any agenda or shadow in every action or statement that we make.

These similarities, in words and practices, in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, are expected because these religions originated from the same area and the people share many cultural, sociological and anthropological traits.

Unlike other religions, these three religions, are sometimes referred to as “Abrahamic faiths”, believe in one God but have different concepts of the Creator.

There is something positive out of this controversy – it’s good to learn and appreciate each other’s religions. As individuals, we are all constantly seeking out God in our personal journey of faith. Let us do so with our eyes, our minds and our hearts open.

Source

[north_malaysian]

lol, this is funny, we should save this article and give it to western anti-Islamics who so eagerly claim Allah is a moon god and shouldn't be used, here we have Christians DEMANDING they have the right to use the word Allah in their christian faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and it's even funnier that the Islamists are okay with Christians calling their God as Allah but not the secular ultra-nationalists. It's a weird world huh?

[Amadeus85]

and it's even funnier that the Islamists are okay with Christians calling their God as Allah but not the secular ultra-nationalists. It's a weird world huh?

Didnt the current malaysian prime minister say that he wanted to start the islamic civilization or something like that ?

[north_malaysian]

Didnt the current malaysian prime minister say that he wanted to start the islamic civilization or something like that ?

he introduced a new concept called "Islam Hadhari" (Civilisational Islam) which most Muslims dont even care to know about it.

He just talk...and talk... and talk..... the most boring Prime Minister I've seen.+o(

But when something wrong in his administration, he would be the last person to respond... or maybe not responding at all....

The most sick thing about him is that his son in law Khairy Jamaluddin (KJ) is very vocal about the political issues. He was definitely NOTHING during former Prime Minister era... suddenly he was over exposed in current Prime Minister era. Some people said that KJ want to be the Prime Minister in less 10 years time.... KJ is known to be ultra-nationalist.

Many people believe that KJ influenced the current Prime Minister a lot....

Many ultra-nationalists are in current PM's cabinet and parliament like Zam Maidin, Nazri, Bung Radin, etc.

They controlled the mass media in Malaysia. They can do demonstrations but not the oppositions.

They can do all pro-government campaigns on all tv channels, but not the oppositions.

Most of people who dislike the current government are Chinese, religious Muslims, middle-class and elite Malays; and Hindus.

Yeah... they also control the Election Commission.

We would have a general election next year.... and I believe they would still win... because they would compete as cowards... who cheat alot.....:raging:

[ricardo_sousa]

just for curiosity.... in Malaysia how many people would vote to have an Islamic State with Sharia law? an approximation...

[north_malaysian]

Muslim Identities Public Opinion Survey (2005)

The public opinion survey conceptualised and coordinated by Assoc. Prof. Dr. Patricia Martinez of Universiti Malaya's Asia-Europe Institute, polled 1,029 randomly-selected Malaysian Muslims across the peninsula between 15 to 18 December 2005.

Is Malaysia an Islamic State?
Yes - 73%
No - 25%
Don't Know - 2%

Do you want an Islamic state in Malaysia, like Iran?
No - 77%

Do you want Hudood Laws to be implemented in Malaysia?
Yes - 56%

Should the Non-Muslims be subjected under Hudood Laws?
No - 60%
Yes - 28%

Is it acceptable for Malaysian Muslims to live alongside those of other religions?
Yes - 97%

Should Islam be part of an interfaith council in Malaysia?
Yes - 76%

Should Malaysians be allowed to choose their religion as stipulated in the Constitution's Article 11 which guarantees freedom of religion?
Yes - 77%

Should Malaysian Muslims be allowed to change their religion?
No - 98%

Do you want the Sharia Laws to remain as it is under under the Constitution?
Yes - 64%

What is the level of strictness of current Sharia Laws in Malaysia?
Not Strict Enough - 77%
Sufficiently Strict - 18%
Too Strict - 2%

Who should have the authority to monitor and punish Muslims for immoral behaviour?
Religious Authority - 44%
Family - 33%
Others - 21%

Which identity would you choose if you could only choose one from this three options: Malay, Malaysian or Muslim?
Muslim - 73%
Malaysian - 14%
Malay - 13%

Do you feel that your identity as Muslim, Malaysian and Malay.
Yes - 99%

Do you believe that in Islam, women and men have equal rights?
Total - Yes (76%), No (24%)
Male Respondents - Yes (80%), No (19%)
Female Respondents - Yes (73%), No (26%)

If a husband told his wife she should not work, should she obey him?
Total - Yes (57%)
Male Respondents - Yes (57%)
Female Respondents - Yes (57%)

Can women be Sharia Court Judges?
Total - Yes (55%), No (38%), Don't Know/No Response (7%)
Male Respondents - Yes (51%), No (40%)
Female Respondents - Yes (60%), No (35%)

Source: http://www.malaysia-today.net/Blog-n...re-islamic.htm

[ricardo_sousa]

very interesting! thank you.

[north_malaysian]

Do you want an Islamic state in Malaysia, like Iran?
No - 77%


Do you want Hudood Laws to be implemented in Malaysia?
Yes - 56%

Kind of weird right? 77% dont want an Islamic state but 56% want Hudood Laws....:exhausted

[Muslim Knight]

Malaysia reverses Allah paper ban


KUALA LUMPUR. The Malaysian government has reversed a decision to ban a Christian newspaper using the word Allah to refer to God. The government had threatened to refuse to give the Weekly Herald a publishing permit if it continued to use the word.
The paper's editor said the word had long been used by Christians to refer to God in the Malay language.

The ruling was immediately condemned by civil rights and Christian groups in Malaysia, who said it infringed their right to practice their religion.

But Malaysia's internal security department demanded the word be removed, saying only Muslims could use it, Kazinform quotes BBC News.

'Over-zealous ministers'

Now the government has back-tracked.

In a fax to the Herald's editor, the government says it will get its 2008 permit, with no conditions attached.

Father Andrew Lawrence told the BBC he was delighted, saying prayers had been answered.

He blamed politics and a general election expected here in 2008 year for what he said were the actions of a few over-zealous ministers in the Muslim-dominated Malay government.

Religious issues are highly sensitive in Malaysia, which has a 60% Muslim population.

Religious freedom is guaranteed in the law but minority groups have accused the Muslim Malay majority of trying to increase the role of Islam in the country.

SOURCE

[The_Prince]

Kind of weird right? 77% dont want an Islamic state but 56% want Hudood Laws....:exhausted

yes, but if you notice the Q it says LIKE IRAN, so its not that they dont want an Islamic state per se, its that they dont want an Iranian style state and you cant blame them can you? the media is always talking about how Iran does this and does that so obviously ppl will be put off, although if someone goes to Iran like i have on many occasions you will see its a very nice place you wouldnt find any of the supposed oppression and crazy mullahs. although i did see a mullah walk across the street once. :)

[north_malaysian]

For the sake of the next year election, the BN politicians are saying so many crazy things.....

But why Najib lead all the sayings... not Pak Lah or that monkey KJ.

Maybe Pak Lah is in Australia right now?:exhausted

[Uthman]

Malaysia reversal on 'Allah' ruling

The Malaysian government has reversed a decision to ban the Malay-language section of a Catholic newspaper amid a row over the use of the word "Allah" as a synonym for God.

In a surprise about-turn, officials approved the publication permit for The Herald which reports on Catholic community news in English, Malay, Tamil and Chinese.

The internal security ministry gave no reasons for the earlier ban but the unusual delay in getting the permit renewed had followed a warning over the publication's use of the word "Allah", which officials had said could only be used to refer to the Muslim God.

Speaking to Al Jazeera Reverend Lawrence Andrew, editor of The Herald, said he was happy the government had renewed the weekly's 2008 permit without any conditions.

"The renewal process usually takes two to three months but I don’t know what caused the delay this time," he said.

"The government did not give any explanation in its letter."

Print publications in Malaysia require a government permit which is renewed every year.

Warnings

The government has previously warned The Herald, which has a circulation of 12,000 among Catholics, that its permit could be revoked if it continued to use the word "Allah" for God in its Malay-language section.

"Allah" is Arabic for God and means the same in Malay, Malaysia's national language.

Christians in Malaysia have argued that the word "Allah" was used by Christians before Islam.

Andrew said he did not know the reason for the initial ban, which the Herald had appealed.

"It could have been due to any of the articles we have published, and not necessarily the use of the word Allah," he added.

Andrew said people cannot be denied the use of their language, adding that the community is grateful the ban was not imposed.

"It was certainly a good thing for the country as a whole that we can accept one another. We need to be moderate and have tolerance," he added.

Early this month The Herald filed a suit seeking a declaration on the use of the word "Allah" as a constitutional right.

Meanwhile, in a separate development it has emerged that a church in the eastern state of Sabah is also suing Malaysian authorities for barring the import of Christian literature from Indonesia containing the word "Allah".

Sabah Sidang Injil Borneo Church filed the case in Kuala Lumpur earlier this month after six titles for their Sunday school education for children were banned.

Letters from the internal security ministry said the books contained various words that were exclusive to Islam, including "Allah" (God), "Baitullah" (House of God), "Solat" (prayer) and "Kaabah" (The Sacred House).

In multi-racial Malaysia, the government considers religion a sensitive matter and often classify related matters as a security issue.

Source

[Grace Seeker]

Do you want Hudood Laws to be implemented in Malaysia?
Yes - 56%

What are Hudood Laws? What is the difference between them and Sharia?

[Uthman]

Greetings Grace Seeker,

How are you?

What are Hudood Laws? What is the difference between them and Sharia?

Definitions of Hudood on the Web:

Hudud: Islamic laws stating the limits ordained by Allah and including the deterrent punishments for serious crimes
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Hudud ( Arabic حدود, also transliterated hadud, hudood; plural for hadd, حد, limit, or restriction) is the word often used in Islamic social and legal literature for the bounds of acceptable behaviour and the punishments for serious crimes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood


There is no difference between Hudood laws and the Sharia. Rather, the Hudood laws form part of the Sharia. The wikipedia link above gives some useful info about it.

Also, here is also a useful link about Islamic law in general: Islamic Law:Myths and Realities.

There is some relevant info on the page about Hudud under the section entitled "Hadd crimes."

:)

Regards

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you, Osman. That was helpful. I didn't want to make any of the following comments till I was clear on that.


As with most public opinion poll, I see that the public is of two different minds with regard to what it believes, and yet apparently a majority of the people who both views at the same time:

Do you want the Sharia Laws to remain as it is under under the Constitution?
Yes - 64%

What is the level of strictness of current Sharia Laws in Malaysia?
Not Strict Enough - 77%
Sufficiently Strict - 18%
Too Strict - 2%

64% want the Sharia Laws to remain as it is, and yet 79% (combined) think that they are either not strict enough or are already too strict.

So, we don't like them the way they are, but don't change them.

Should the Non-Muslims be subjected under Hudood Laws?
No - 60%
Yes - 28%

Should Malaysians be allowed to choose their religion as stipulated in the Constitution's Article 11 which guarantees freedom of religion?
Yes - 77%

Should Malaysian Muslims be allowed to change their religion?
No - 98%

So, non-Muslims should not be subjected to Hudood Laws and people should be allowed to choose their religion, unless of course a person born into a Muslim household, should think independently of his family and wish to be known as something other than a Muslim. Then, if though the person see him/herself as not a Muslim, he is compelled to keep that label.

[Cognescenti]

Wait..I am seriously confused. Is not the word, "Allah" Arabic in origin? I can understand why Malay Muslims would use the Arabic word but are you saying the Arabic word became adopted into the Malay language as a more general term for any god, or is it more specific for God worshipped by monotheistic religions. I guess I can understand why Malay Christians might use the word "Allah" to denote "God" as I imagine Christianity came to Malaya after Islam, but the whole argument just seems silly. I suspect it is a politically motivated play on people's bigotry (in this case anti-Christian bigotry)


Somebody give me a shout next time there is a big fight between Christians and Jews over the word "Jehova" or "Yahweh". The Christians stole it from Hebrew texts and nobody even really knows how to pronounce it :giggling:

[Grace Seeker]

Somebody give me a shout next time there is a big fight between Christians and Jews over the word "Jehova" or "Yahweh". The Christians stole it from Hebrew texts and nobody even really knows how to pronounce it :giggling:

Well, on that note, I will admit that Jews do not use either of those terms to refer to God. So, the parallel probably isn't the same, but the above remains a good question.

[Muslim Knight]

Well, on that note, I will admit that Jews do not use either of those terms to refer to God. So, the parallel probably isn't the same, but it the above remains a good question.

At least them Jews don't ever ban Christians from using Yahweh or Jehovah as names for God.

One stupid Malay Muslim minister who doesn't understand his own religion when the Muslim scholars didn't even make a fuss over it.

[Woodrow]

lol, this is funny, we should save this article and give it to western anti-Islamics who so eagerly claim Allah is a moon god and shouldn't be used, here we have Christians DEMANDING they have the right to use the word Allah in their christian faith!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:sl:

I was just thinking the very same thing. What an excellent gift, to have this to point to when a non-Muslim uses that old Moon-God fallacy.

[Cognescenti]

:sl:

I was just thinking the very same thing. What an excellent gift, to have this to point to when a non-Muslim uses that old Moon-God fallacy.

That is funny because I had never heard anyone posit such a theory and I have lived in the US for quite a few years and I think I know more about Islam than most non-Muslim Americans. I think it might be best to just keep quiet about it.

[ricardo_sousa]

:sl:

I was just thinking the very same thing. What an excellent gift, to have this to point to when a non-Muslim uses that old Moon-God fallacy.

honestly, I don´t see any contradiction. Allah is just a name. It represents something. the actual world context connects it with the God of the muslin faith (I know that the God is the same between the 3 major religions). But in the pre-Islamic Arabia it could have been the name for a moon god. what´s the confusion?

Now, some Christian Malaysians want to use the term Allah to refer to God also, maybe already been a influence of being so close to the Islamic culture for centuries. In the end is just a name, it can represent lots of things in different times.

[Woodrow]

honestly, I don´t see any contradiction. Allah is just a name. It represents something. the actual world context connects it with the God of the muslin faith (I know that the God is the same between the 3 major religions). But in the pre-Islamic Arabia it could have been the name for a moon god. what´s the confusion?

Now, some Christian Malaysians want to use the term Allah to refer to God also, maybe already been a influence of being so close to the Islamic culture for centuries. In the end is just a name, it can represent lots of things in different times.

except a study of linguistics does show that for the early centuries the Christians did use variations of Allaah(swt) in their worship. God's name is not limited to one group of people and at one time all of the people of the work did worship the one God(swt)

[Grace Seeker]

That is funny because I had never heard anyone posit such a theory and I have lived in the US for quite a few years and I think I know more about Islam than most non-Muslim Americans. I think it might be best to just keep quiet about it.

Oh, I have. I suppose it just depends on who you keep company with. But, I do indeed plan to keep this article in storage someplace for the next time the discussion comes up. I've mentioned it before, but no one is willing to accept it, they just refer to their missionary friends serving in Africa where you have villages in internal conflict pitting Christianity and Islam at the center of it.

[ricardo_sousa]

except a study of linguistics does show that for the early centuries the Christians did use variations of Allaah(swt) in their worship.

very interesting. Do you have any source to that studies? It would be interesting to see where those Christian communities lived and in what centuries.

[Woodrow]

very interesting. Do you have any source to that studies? It would be interesting to see where those Christian communities lived and in what centuries.

Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic are very closely related languages. The writting grammar of them is nearly identical and words are written with only the root letters, (ie 3 consonants) Although the shape of the letters differ the pronunciation of the letters are virtually the same in all three languages.

we know that the early Christians used the Aramaic language initially , the alleged last words of Jesus are "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani? ("My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?", Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34)." or sometimes written as "Eli, Eli la ma Saba kathani" It is nearly impossible to transliterate into the English alphabet. Eloi/ Eli ( are the diminuative forms of Elah)pronounced Al-ah) Elohim (pronounced Al-aheem) and Allaah (more correctly Al-Laah) are forms of the same root word Alif Lam Hah in all three languages. to quote the exact sources would require hunting down early grammar texts of the three languages. Fortunatly there is an easier way. that is through bible usage.

EL: God ("mighty, strong, prominent") used 250 times in the OT See Gen. 7:1, 28:3, 35:11; Nu. 23:22; Josh. 3:10; 2 Sam. 22:31, 32; Neh. 1:5, 9:32; Isa. 9:6; Ezek. 10:5. El is linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; Elohim is three or more. The gods of the nations are called "elohim." The origin of Eloah is obscure. Elohim is the more common plural form of El. Eloah is used 41 times in Job between 3:4 and 40:2, but fewer than 15 times elsewhere in the OT.

Source:http://www.ldolphin.org/Names2.html

Elah

Although God inspired most of the Old Testament books to be written in Hebrew, Daniel and Ezra wrote portions of their books in Aramaic or Syriac, the language spoken throughout the Persian Empire during their time. It had also replaced Hebrew as the language of common speech of the Jews.

Nowhere in the Aramaic passages do we find the names YHWH or Elohim. Examining the manuscripts reveals that in dozens of places the writers rendered the Hebrew names for God into the Aramaic word Elah. It is just as proper for the Hebrew El and Elohim to be translated into the English word God, as it was for Daniel and Ezra to use the Aramaic word Elah.

Source: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuse...sr/CT/RA/k/367

the word God did not appear until the year 825 so variations of that were not used by the Early Christians.

What is the origin of the word God?

Ultimately, the origin of the word god is uncertain but it appeared in various spellings in Old English c. 825 and had cognates in the Old Frisian, Old Saxon, Dutch, Old High German, Old Norse, and Gothic languages. There are two Aryan roots - one meaning 'to invoke' (Sanskrit) and the other meaning 'to pour, to offer sacrifice' and 'to boast' (Greek). The word was first used in a non-Christian sense to refer to a superhuman person who was worshipped and believed to have power over nature and the fortunes of man. The words for god were originally neuter, but when Germanic tribes adopted Christianity, God became masculine in form. In the Old Testament various names for God are used: YHWH, Adonai [my Lord], Jehovah, and Yahweh. The most common name for God in the Old Testament is Elohim, a plural form, but used as a singular when speaking of God. The spelling god is first seen in print around 900.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/help...guage/e34.html

[north_malaysian]

yes, but if you notice the Q it says LIKE IRAN, so its not that they dont want an Islamic state per se, its that they dont want an Iranian style state and you cant blame them can you?

OK... you are right...

And maybe they dont want Malaysia to be like Iran, because they're Shiites. And Malaysians are Sunnis.

I think the question should say ""LIKE SAUDI ARABIA".

[north_malaysian]

64% want the Sharia Laws to remain as it is,

Actually 64% want Sharia Laws to remain as it is under the Federal Constitution.

Under the Fed. Consti, there is no higher law than the Federal Constitution in Malaysia.

But in the same fed. consti. Shariah Law has it own jurisdiction and even the Fed. Consti. could not interfere sharia courts jurisdiction.

It means that majority of Malaysian Muslims respect the Federal Constitution as the highest law of the land but in the same time it could not interfere in Sharia Court matters.

For example, under Fed. Consti. Malaysians have the freedom to change their religion. But if a Muslim want to change his/her religion, he/she should apply for it from Sharia Courts. According to Lina Joy case, Federal Consti. could not meddling in Sharia Court affairs even it's the highest law of the land.

and yet 79% (combined) think that they are either not strict enough or are already too strict.

How strict is our Sharia Laws:

SYARIAH CRIMINAL OFFENCES (FEDERAL TERRITORIES) ACT 1997

Section 3 - Wrongful worship
(1) Any person who worships nature and does any act which shows worship or reverence of any person, animal, place or thing in any manner contrary to Islamic Law shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

Section 4 - False Doctrine
(1) Any person who teaches or expounds in any place, whether private or public, any doctrine or performs any ceremony or act relating to the religion of Islam shall, if such doctrine or ceremony or act is contrary to Islamic Law or any Fatwa for the time being in force in Federal Territories, be guilty of an offence shalll on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 7 - Insulting, or bringing into contempt, etc. the religion of Islam
Any person who orally or in writing or by visible representation or in other manner:-

(a) insults and brings into contempt the religion of Islam;

(b) derides, apes or ridicules the practices or ceremonies relating to the religion of Islam; or

(c) degrades or brings into contempt any law relating to the religion of Islam for the time being in force in the Federal Territories.

shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or both.

Section 14 - Failure to perform Friday prayers.
Any male person, being "baligh", who fails to perform Friday prayers in a mosque within his "Kariah" (parish) for 3 consecutive weeks without "Uzur Shar'ie"or without any reasonable cause shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.

Section 15 - Disrespect for Ramadhan
Any person who during the hours of fasting in the month of Ramadhan:-

(a) sells to any Muslim any food, drink, cigarette or other form of tobacco for immediate consumption during such hours; or

(b) openly or in public place is found to be eating, drinking or smoking,

shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, and for a second or subsequent offence to a fine not exceeding RM 2,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one year or to both.

Section 16 - Non-payment of "Zakat" and "Fitrah"
Any person who, being liable to pay Zakat or Fitrah:-

(a) refuses or wilfully fails to pay Zakat or Fitrah; or

(b) refuses or wilfully fails to pay the zakat or fitrah through an "amil" appointed, or any other person authorized, by the Majlis (Religious Council) to collect zakat and fitrah,

shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to both.

Section 18 - Gambling
(1) Any person who gambles, or is found in a gaming house, shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to both.

Section 19 - Intoxicating Drinks
(1) Any person who in any shop or other public place, consumes any intoxicating drink shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or to both.

(2) Any person who makes, sells, offers, or exhibits for sale, keeps or buys any intoxicating drink shall be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to both.

Section 20 - Incest
Any person who commits incest shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 21 - Prostitution
(1) Any woman who prostitutes herself shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding six strokes or any combination thereof.

(2) Any person who:-

(a) prostitutes his wife or a female child under his care; or

(b) causes or allows his wife or child under his care to prostitute herself,

shall be guilty of an offence and on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

[north_malaysian]

Section 23 - Sexual intercourse out of wedlock
(1) Any man who performs sexual intercourse with a woman who is not his lawful wife shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination of thereof.

(2) Any woman who performs sexual intercourse with a man who is not her lawful husband shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 25 - Liwat (Sodomy)
Any male person who commits "Liwat" (Sodomy) shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 26 - Musahaqah (Lesbian sexual intercourse)
Any female person who commits "Musahaqah" shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 5,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 years or to whipping not exceeding 6 strokes or to any combination thereof.

Section 27 - Khalwat
Any:-

(a) man who is found together with one or more women, not being his wife or mahram; or

(b) woman who is found together with one or more men, not being her husband or mahram,

in any secluded place or in a house or room under circumstances which may gice rise to suspicion that they were engaged in immoral acts shall be guilty of an offence and shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 3,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years or both.

Section 28 - Male person posing as woman
Any male person who, in any public place, wears a woman's attire and poses as a woman for immoral purposes shall be guilty of an offence amd shall on conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding RM 1,000.00 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 1 year or to both.

[north_malaysian]

I guess I can understand why Malay Christians might use the word "Allah" to denote "God" as I imagine Christianity came to Malaya after Islam, but the whole argument just seems silly. I suspect it is a politically motivated play on people's bigotry (in this case anti-Christian bigotry)

Under the Federal Constitution, there would be no such thing as "Malay Christian" as a "Malay" must be a Muslim. If a Malay ceased to be a Muslim, he would no longer be a "Malay" and lost his special rights as a Malay.

The reasons why Malay Language is used in the churches:

1) Most of the younger generation of non-Muslim natives of Borneo (ie. Iban, Kadazan, Murut, Kelabit, Dusun etc) speak Malay Language as first language.

2) The Christian Aborigines of Peninsula Malaysia could only read the Bible in Malay Language as their native languages have no writing systems and Malay Language is the only foreign language they knew.

3) The Christian Indonesian immigrants could only understand Malay Language as there are no Indonesian Language churches in Malaysia.

[north_malaysian]

One stupid Malay Muslim minister who doesn't understand his own religion when the Muslim scholars didn't even make a fuss over it.

They want to show to the Malaysian Muslims that they're the Champion of defending Malay special right to use "Allah" solely.

Of course... as they "really" want Muslim votes too...:exhausted

[wilberhum]

Now what non-Muslim would want to live under those laws?

No me, that's for sure.

[north_malaysian]

That is funny because I had never heard anyone posit such a theory and I have lived in the US for quite a few years and I think I know more about Islam than most non-Muslim Americans. I think it might be best to just keep quiet about it.

I've heard of this theory about 3,4 years ago in a Malaysian forum, where an ex-Muslim claiming that he left Islam because Allah is the moon Goddess and we Muslims still having the deity being kept inside Kaabah... what a freaking person. And he's not a trinitarian as he believes God is only made up of 2 entities Jesus and Father. And he refused to tell us his church or sect too.:exhausted

[north_malaysian]

But in the pre-Islamic Arabia it could have been the name for a moon god. what´s the confusion?

The Moon Goddess name is Al-Laat (اللت) which is way different than Allah ( الله )

Now, some Christian Malaysians want to use the term Allah to refer to God also, maybe already been a influence of being so close to the Islamic culture for centuries. In the end is just a name, it can represent lots of things in different times.

The nationalist Malays want exclusive right to use "Allah". That's why this problem exists.

[north_malaysian]

Now what non-Muslim would want to live under those laws?

No me, that's for sure.

Those laws are meant for Muslims only. For non-Muslims they should only follow our Common Laws.

[wilberhum]

Those laws are meant for Muslims only. For non-Muslims they should only follow our Common Laws.

But the police to capture those who do not keep those laws, the courts to prosecute them and the jails to hold them will be paid for with my tax money.

Remember the survey?
Should the Non-Muslims be subjected under Hudood Laws?
Yes - 28%

IHMO It is insane to try to run a country with multiple contradictory laws.

[Uthman]

Should the Non-Muslims be subjected under Hudood Laws?

I think that question should be questioned. I don't see why it has been asked when Non-Muslims are not meant to be subjected to these laws anyway.

[Cognescenti]

Under the Federal Constitution, there would be no such thing as "Malay Christian" as a "Malay" must be a Muslim. If a Malay ceased to be a Muslim, he would no longer be a "Malay" and lost his special rights as a Malay.

The reasons why Malay Language is used in the churches:

1) Most of the younger generation of non-Muslim natives of Borneo (ie. Iban, Kadazan, Murut, Kelabit, Dusun etc) speak Malay Language as first language.

2) The Christian Aborigines of Peninsula Malaysia could only read the Bible in Malay Language as their native languages have no writing systems and Malay Language is the only foreign language they knew.

3) The Christian Indonesian immigrants could only understand Malay Language as there are no Indonesian Language churches in Malaysia.

Wow! Let me see if I understand. So if a Malay (who is by Constitutional definition Muslim), decides to "unrevert" and become a Christian, not only is he likely guilty of aposty (so something really bad might happen to him) but he would also legally cease to be from the same ethnic group to which his very genetic make-up arose. :uuh: That is some pretty heavy duty racial/ethnic politcs you guys have going in Malaysia.

As for the "Christian Aborigines of Peninsula Malaysia" are you saying then that there were Christians on the Malayan Penisula before ethnic Malay arrived?????? I find that amazing.

This phrase is interesting too..."special rights as a Malay". What are those?

[Grace Seeker]

Those laws are meant for Muslims only. For non-Muslims they should only follow our Common Laws.

Not quite true. For example: One law was that during fasting hours a person could not sell food or drink to a Muslim during Ramadan. How am I, a shop keeper, to know that this person is or is not a Muslim? That law impacts me, a non-Muslim.

[north_malaysian]

Not quite true. For example: One law was that during fasting hours a person could not sell food or drink to a Muslim during Ramadan. How am I, a shop keeper, to know that this person is or is not a Muslim? That law impacts me, a non-Muslim.

Not selling food or drink to a Muslim rule are enforced on Muslim food sellers..like hawkers or restaurant owners.

If a Malay eat in the public area in a place owned by a Non-Muslim. They would only catch this person not the owner.

SYARIAH CRIMINAL OFFENCES (FEDERAL TERRITORIES) ACT 1997

Section 1 - Short title, commencement and application.

(2) This Act shall apply only:-

(a) to the Federal Territories and Labuan; and

(b) to persons professing the religion of ISLAM.

[north_malaysian]

Wow! Let me see if I understand. So if a Malay (who is by Constitutional definition Muslim), decides to "unrevert" and become a Christian, not only is he likely guilty of aposty (so something really bad might happen to him) but he would also legally cease to be from the same ethnic group to which his very genetic make-up arose. :uuh: That is some pretty heavy duty racial/ethnic politcs you guys have going in Malaysia.

It's true. But we dont kill apostates in Malaysia.

As for the "Christian Aborigines of Peninsula Malaysia" are you saying then that there were Christians on the Malayan Penisula before ethnic Malay arrived?????? I find that amazing.

There are around 100,000 Aborigines in Malayan Peninsula and they have been practising Paganism before the arrival of Islam. Meanwhile, the Malays were Buddhist or Hindus before Islam was spread in the Malay Archipelago by Muslim traders from Arabia, India and China.

The Malays never enforced the Aborigines to be Muslims until now. Through missionaries especially PERKIM, today 1/3 of the Aborigines embraced Islam. Later on, the Christian missionaries came and managed to convert some of them. I've visited a family of Muslim missionary house deep inside the jungle of Pahang which involve in Islamizing the Aborigines. They provide food, clothes and education. They live with the Aborigines. And the Aborigines love them.

This phrase is interesting too..."special rights as a Malay". What are those?

Special rights of the Malays:

1) Monarchy power
2) Only Malays could live, buy, rent and develop Malay Reserved Lands.
3) Malays got discount price when buying homes.
4) Malays got discount price when buying shares.
5) There is a quota reserved for Malay students in Public Universities.

and more...

[ricardo_sousa]

I've visited a family of Muslim missionary house deep inside the jungle of Pahang which involve in Islamizing the Aborigines. They provide food, clothes and education. They live with the Aborigines. And the Aborigines love them.

lol, talking about how bad were Christian missionaries in India for giving money to "hungry people".. Missionaries, despite their religion, all use the same strategy.

[ricardo_sousa]

Wow! Let me see if I understand. So if a Malay (who is by Constitutional definition Muslim), decides to "unrevert" and become a Christian, not only is he likely guilty of aposty (so something really bad might happen to him) but he would also legally cease to be from the same ethnic group to which his very genetic make-up arose. :uuh: That is some pretty heavy duty racial/ethnic politcs you guys have going in Malaysia.

Actually, I have met trough an international forum, nothing related with religion, a Malaysian. And when we were talking about the governments and the differences between our countries, he pointed that he had in his ID card his religion (Islam), but that he was an atheist. He said that he wouldn´t change because that were very troubling. Now I see why....

These kind of system only brings more hypocrisy to society and nation.

[Umm Yoosuf]

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