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Fishman
12-29-2007, 06:45 PM
:sl:
Simple question: Why is the west the most powerful,culturally influential and economically eveloped of the four main civilizations (European, Islamic, East Asian and Indian)?
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Uthman
12-29-2007, 06:57 PM
:sl:

Industrial revolution?

:w:
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جوري
12-29-2007, 06:58 PM
It is a cyclical change, once a particular region becomes complacent and relies on its old glories.. I mean look at ancient Greece and have a look at it now, it is two steps shy of Egypt another former great..
empires rise and fall..
a great deal of the west's wealth really comes from the blood and wealth of other nations..
:w:
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جوري
12-29-2007, 07:01 PM
The poll is a bit odd, it is usually not just one thing that leads to a rise or a fall but a domino affect really, once set in motion it is a go.. I'll choose other..

:w:
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Fishman
12-29-2007, 07:03 PM
:sl:
There is now a multi-choice poll up.

I would also replace 'willing to use violence' with 'used violence'. If Islamic civilisation had gone to the Americas they probably would have used violence too, along with the Chinese and Indians.
:w:
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Woodrow
12-29-2007, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Simple question: Why is the west the most powerful,culturally influential and economically eveloped of the four main civilizations (European, Islamic, East Asian and Indian)?
The only explanation is because the West is still in it's infancy. Each of those cultures had gone through the same stage we are now in. Historically it has been a very short lived stage of a Nation and immediately followed by a rapid drop in culture.

That only makes sense. Cultural advancement is expensive and places a drain on a country's economy to support it. The artisans, politicians, public servants, social workers, health care workers, law keeping, military etc. Are all non-productive in terms of creating usable products or food. As soon as the majority of the production workers become the minority, necessary production ceases and the nation falls.

You have just read the previously unknown " woodrow theory of social development and the fall of civilization" naturally it is my opinion and nobody else has agreed with it. So, don't bother looking for a source, it is the source.
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Fishman
12-29-2007, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
The poll is a bit odd, it is usually not just one thing that leads to a rise or a fall but a domino affect really, once set in motion it is a go.. I'll choose other..

:w:
:sl:
Example? I think some are caused by others, such as the renaisance was caused partially by violence (the reconquest of Islamic Spain and Sicily), and partly by the fact that the Khan's horses couldn't burn and pillage as well in densely populated Europe as they could in the steppes and deserts, but I think that in general a rise or a fall is caused by a number of effects. For example, Mali rose because of its strategic location on a trade route though Africa, and fell when the trade stopped this was not important anymore.
:w:
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MustafaMc
12-29-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
It is a cyclical change, once a particular region becomes complacent and relies on its old glories.. I mean look at ancient Greece and have a look at it now, it is two steps shy of Egypt another former great..
empires rise and fall..
a great deal of the west's wealth really comes from the blood and wealth of other nations..
:w:
I aggree with you. Empires rise and fall - who knows - the "West" may already be on the decline.

As for the current state of affairs, I also agree with your closing comment. Where would the "West" be today had Columbus not discovered America. The West is best at appropriating and exploiting the resources of others - Africa, the Americas, India, etc.
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aamirsaab
12-29-2007, 07:43 PM
:sl:
When the people in the East stopped, the people in the West started.
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Uthman
12-29-2007, 07:50 PM
:sl:

So what you guys are saying is that the golden age of the western world is taking place now?

Whereas, the golden age of, for instance, the Islamic world, took place centuries ago?

:w:
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aamirsaab
12-29-2007, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Osman
:sl:

So what you guys are saying is that the golden age of the western world is taking place now?

Whereas, the golden age of, for instance, the Islamic world, took place centuries ago?

:w:
To some extent yes. If we take into account that each civilisation or part of the world has it's glory time, i.e. be cyclical in nature (birth --->maturity--->decline) then it would be logical to assume that once every nation has had it's cycle, it will occur again. In essence, the Islamic world could have another golden age.

That is, of course, if we are under the belief that it is a cyclical nature. If not, then we're looking at bleakness for many countries.
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chosen
12-29-2007, 08:12 PM
well I am a bible thumping christian...my bible clearly states that those who support israel will be blessed and those who do not will be cursed..so it doesnt really matter what you believe..I respect everyones right to worshipp as they choose in peace..but if you look around the world and throughout history..bible prophecy seems to be accurate..
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Isambard
12-29-2007, 08:15 PM
Secularization.
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جوري
12-29-2007, 08:16 PM
Israel is Jacob and not the colonial settler state of Israel..

Islamic prophecies are also correct for in them the state of Israel is to assemble from all corners of the world for a promised date..

cheers!
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Uthman
12-29-2007, 08:21 PM
Because I live there. :D
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chosen
12-29-2007, 08:21 PM
it is amazing that religions that all have so much in common can hold so much hate inside...we should all learn to love what we have in common and not just focus and hate the differences...we all are gods creations/children..none made better than another..we were all given the gift of free choice and all commanded by god to act in a decent manner...I do believe that the united states is blessed because of its support of israel...does that mean israel is right in everything???no it doesnt..even the bible speaks of god punishing israel for its sins..but the same bible calls the supporter of israel to be blessed..
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جوري
12-29-2007, 08:32 PM
I don't see where stating the simple fact that 'Israel' is Jacob denotes hatred?

Any congregation of people can form a union, declare a state by the name of 'Israel' .. Much of the original tribes sons of Jacob, have either become Christians or Muslims with the ages, 90% of the current Jews are of ashkenazi origin not sephardic.

Thus I feel to see how you are supporting or not supporting Israel and its relevence to political or economic rise or fall? Bard actually has a point, it is the secularization of the west from the dark ages of the church that has given it some leverage, not true for Muslims, however, when they abandoned what they had is where the decline set in

Current state of Israel is in fact an impostor in and of itself not a religious state but a secular one!
This has nothing to do with loving or hating Jews. I have many Jewish friends who would rather stay in their countries of Syria or Iraq until the Moshiach comes to lead them to the 'promised land' and they are at least semitic in origin
Bibilical prophecy has no weight here I am afraid. You are supporting the wrong cause!
Sad thing indeed to love a colonial settler secular state that has 'crucified God'

cheers
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Keltoi
12-29-2007, 09:01 PM
I can't really choose any of the options, as the question is far more complicated than that. The Western world is somewhat of an appendage to the old Greek and Roman Empires. The West hasn't had a one all powerful emperor to tie it all together, but Christianity became the unifying force in Europe...until the Reformation anyway.

Then you had the Enlightenment and the exploration of different political theories. The Industrial Revolution. Then the most important for wealth, which was colonization and empire.

It can't be understated how militaristic the West was and to some extent still is either. Strong militaries, innovation, political expression, Christianity, etc are all important factors.

Also, when it comes to the "West", it isn't so much when "it" will decline, but what nation will carry the torch of Western civilization. It was the Greeks, the Romans, the British, the French, the Spanish, etc..all at one time or another.
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chosen
12-29-2007, 09:15 PM
I wasnt speaking of religion..what you say is true..many are christians and muslims today...but the post was about why the west is better or as I said blessed..and modern day israel was mentioned in the bible..and it clearly states those who support israel will be blessed..i for one believe our support is why we are so strong..even before the state of israel was formed..god knew we would support it in the future..god knows everything and I believe that is the root of our good fortune
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chosen
12-29-2007, 09:17 PM
by the way..i believe that every religion culture has wonderful elements in it that blesses them..and since the united states is a mixture of all cultures I feel we benefit greatly from all the good every country has to offer..
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*WhisSPeR...*
12-30-2007, 01:40 AM
does the west include Australia??

anyhow the West is well advance, so that is what attracts people. they live in the 3rd generati0n..
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Yanal
12-30-2007, 01:53 AM
:sl::sl: FishMan

Well west people have more democracy than any east like Bhutoo sad man very sad. That is one reason. The second is that people are more educated here so they don't fool around like signing contracts and getting bankrupt,. Not all reasons west is the best for muslims they might now know the correct prayer time. Every side is good in some ways and people think west is best because west has more power (England.U.S and Canada and west don't have many poor people.

:w::w:
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Yanal
12-30-2007, 01:55 AM
Originally Posted by *WhisSPeR...*
does the west include Australia??

anyhow the West is well advance, so that is what attracts people. they live in the 3rd generati0n..
:sl::sl: WhisSPeR

But Australia isn't in the west side but they do have good technology thats why west isn't always the best in some reasons.
:w::w:
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Keltoi
12-30-2007, 03:02 AM
Australia is considered part of the West, yes, simply because their people, government, political ties, culture, etc are all Western in origin.
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Whatsthepoint
12-30-2007, 03:05 AM
The west is not a geographical but rather a cultural/political term
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
There is now a multi-choice poll up.

I would also replace 'willing to use violence' with 'used violence'. If Islamic civilisation had gone to the Americas they probably would have used violence too, along with the Chinese and Indians.
:w:
Chinese Empire was more interested in trade than conquering other nations... that's why small kingdoms in Southeast Asia had good relationship with China.
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Whatsthepoint
12-30-2007, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I can't really choose any of the options, as the question is far more complicated than that. The Western world is somewhat of an appendage to the old Greek and Roman Empires. The West hasn't had a one all powerful emperor to tie it all together, but Christianity became the unifying force in Europe...until the Reformation anyway.

Then you had the Enlightenment and the exploration of different political theories. The Industrial Revolution. Then the most important for wealth, which was colonization and empire.

It can't be understated how militaristic the West was and to some extent still is either. Strong militaries, innovation, political expression, Christianity, etc are all important factors.

Also, when it comes to the "West", it isn't so much when "it" will decline, but what nation will carry the torch of Western civilization. It was the Greeks, the Romans, the British, the French, the Spanish, etc..all at one time or another.
A great post!:thumbs_up
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Australia is considered part of the West, yes, simply because their people, government, political ties, culture, etc are all Western in origin.
Just give us Eastern Asians a 50 years time.... we will revert Australia and New Zealand into Asiatic nations.....

(checking the ships to send more Chinese and Vietnamese there) :okay:
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adeeb
12-30-2007, 03:12 AM
it's all because of the imperialism and colonization of western country to the eastern...

we have everything here, but we support other country's economic and people.... we work here day and night unpaid, for the western people...

the old story, but change the world forever...
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Keltoi
12-30-2007, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Just give us Eastern Asians a 50 years time.... we will revert Australia and New Zealand into Asiatic nations.....

(checking the ships to send more Chinese and Vietnamese there) :okay:
I realize you're joking, but in reality it doesn't really matter what the ethnic makeup of Australia is at any given time, as long as the political system, culture, etc remains based on Western ideals. Barring some dramatic shift in Australian politics and culture, it will remain "Western" regardless of the ethnic majority.
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I realize you're joking, but in reality it doesn't really matter what the ethnic makeup of Australia is at any given time, as long as the political system, culture, etc remains based on Western ideals. Barring some dramatic shift in Australian politics and culture, it will remain "Western" regardless of the ethnic majority.
Well... many Asian nations have totally embraced the political system, culture etc based on Western ideals like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and the Philippines.
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MustafaMc
12-30-2007, 04:19 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Well... many Asian nations have totally embraced the political system, culture etc based on Western ideals like Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and the Philippines.
This is true. Could it be a racial association? My impression of Australia and New Zealand is that they are populated predominantly by Caucasians. Like North America, the native or aboriginal peoples have been largely supplanted by immigrants from Europe. Perhaps that is why Australia is "West" and Japan is "East".:-\

The racial thing is also associated with one's cultural and religous heritage.
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wilberhum
12-30-2007, 06:19 AM
There is not "A" reason. There are many reasons.
Zionist controlled press.
The crusades.
The on going war against Islam.
CIA trick of making the world think Muslims did 9/11.
The Elders of Zion.
The Freemason.
The Zionist controlled US Federal Government.
The Zionist controlled monetary systems.
Another but not well known is:
The ability to finance all our wars with profits from porn.
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adeeb
12-30-2007, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
There is not "A" reason. There are many reasons.
Zionist controlled press.
The crusades.
The on going war against Islam.
CIA trick of making the world think Muslims did 9/11.
The Elders of Zion.
The Freemason.
The Zionist controlled US Federal Government.
The Zionist controlled monetary systems.
Another but not well known is:
The ability to finance all our wars with profits from ####.
yes, i agree with this... now zionist is leading the world...imsadimsad
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
There is not "A" reason. There are many reasons.
Zionist controlled press.
The crusades.
The on going war against Islam.
CIA trick of making the world think Muslims did 9/11.
The Elders of Zion.
The Freemason.
The Zionist controlled US Federal Government.
The Zionist controlled monetary systems.
Being sarcastic huh? :exhausted
You missed the Illuminatis, the Neo-Cons, the Hippies and the Martians...

Originally Posted by wilberhum
Another but not well known is:
The ability to finance all our wars with profits from porn.
LOL.....
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ricardo_sousa
12-30-2007, 10:49 AM
the west this days don´t represent "only the west", but a group of countries that follow the political, social and economical model made in the west(Europe and USA).

As many have said, Australia, Japan, Brazil, and now more and more China, follow the "west way"... and India is doing the same thing.
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Nájlá
12-30-2007, 11:15 AM
erm as some1 said its a bit odd i think i choose other because there are more than one choice u can give for its best
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Amadeus85
12-30-2007, 11:35 AM
The western civilization is pretty young in copmarision to thousand years old civilizations like chinese or indian. The western civilization began when three things were mixed after the fall of roman empire- christianity, roman law and the ancient greek heritage. I think that the domination began in XVth century (domination in culture, technology,military force,innovations,).And what are the reasons why West is so strong? I think that it is this what some call western values, which are as i said before christian religion and the heritage of ancient Romans and Greeks. And when one of those elements is eliminated the whole western empire may end like ancient Rome or Greece.
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 11:37 AM
How about Russia? Is it "Western"?
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Amadeus85
12-30-2007, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
How about Russia? Is it "Western"?
Well, I would say- no.The main reason is that Russia accepted religion and culture tradition not from Rome but from Byzantium, which makes her rather a part of different civilization- "orthodox".
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Woodrow
12-30-2007, 02:56 PM
Russia is interesting. I believe that The Country Russia, should be considered Western. However the old USSR should not be.

It is really difficult to think of what is meant my Western. There are areas in the geographical west that do not seem to meet the criteria:

Cuba

Bolivia

Panama

Argentina

Greece

Turkey

Vatican City

And probably others
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Russia is interesting. I believe that The Country Russia, should be considered Western. However the old USSR should not be.

It is really difficult to think of what is meant my Western. There are areas in the geographical west that do not seem to meet the criteria:

Cuba

Bolivia

Panama

Argentina

Greece

Turkey

Vatican City

And probably others
Greece and Vatican City not meeting the "Western" criteria?:uuh:

How about Israel?
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north_malaysian
12-30-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, I would say- no.The main reason is that Russia accepted religion and culture tradition not from Rome but from Byzantium, which makes her rather a part of different civilization- "orthodox".
Erm... how about other Orthodox countries like Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia and Ukraine?
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Woodrow
12-30-2007, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Greece and Vatican City not meeting the "Western" criteria?:uuh:

How about Israel?
Vatican City is a theocracy. Although it is the central core of Catholicism, it does not have the same freedoms of Western Countries. It is more like a Christian version of Sharia. There is only Church law and it is not a secular, industrial, nor capitalistic nation. The Western laws of separation of church and state came about to prevent the Vatican from controlling Western Nations.

Greece is a bit odd. It is a combination of ancient and modern. I think there can be legitimate argument for calling it either. I personally view it more as Mid-eastern as the language, laws and economy do differ much from what is seen as Western.

Israel is odd also. Locality wise it is as Mideastern as possible. It seems to enjoy the distinction of receiving aid from the West, yet holding no alliance with any nation except itself. I would say it remains a bit of an out cast from all nations.
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:32 PM
the reason the west is the best is because there are so many cultures and people from all over the world contributing to the western society and makes it what it is, its not white ppl only who have brought the west to where it is now and who continue to make it the dominant force.....

now that begs the Q, why are ppl from all over the world going to the west? very simple, leaders of the west have exploited third world nations by stealing their natural resources, hence they cant get a productive econamy, and they install dictators who will make sure the natural resource flow stays very good for western nations while they the dictars get a good share of the action, which again leads to a cr@p econamy. now when your econamy is cr@p this means the society wont be able to reach its full potential.....

now lets say the west cant sway a leader to become their puppet, then they will simply over-throw him through a coup, i.e. operation ajax....

to sum it up, external western nations cause internal strife and problems in thirld world countries which in turn leads these ppl to turn and go to the west which in turn means the brains and smarties of the third world are contributing their brains and genius ideas to western nations instead of their own respective ideas. its like a bad cycle.
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:32 PM
the reason the west is the best is because there are so many cultures and people from all over the world contributing to the western society and makes it what it is, its not white ppl only who have brought the west to where it is now and who continue to make it the dominant force.....

now that begs the Q, why are ppl from all over the world going to the west? very simple, leaders of the west have exploited third world nations by stealing their natural resources, hence they cant get a productive econamy, and they install dictators who will make sure the natural resource flow stays very good for western nations while they the dictars get a good share of the action, which again leads to a cr@p econamy. now when your econamy is cr@p this means the society wont be able to reach its full potential.....

now lets say the west cant sway a leader to become their puppet, then they will simply over-throw him through a coup, i.e. operation ajax....

to sum it up, external western nations cause internal strife and problems in thirld world countries which in turn leads these ppl to turn and go to the west which in turn means the brains and smarties of the third world are contributing their brains and genius ideas to western nations instead of their own respective countries. its like a bad cycle.
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Amadeus85
12-30-2007, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Erm... how about other Orthodox countries like Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Moldova, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia and Ukraine?
Well we shouldnt think that there are only two civilizations- West and East. Because what about Kenia,South Africa or Argenita? We have quite few civilizations and orthodox civilization is one of them (Greece,Bulgaria,Serbia etc.) There are those countries which embraced christianity from Byzantium and this fact impacted their culture,lifestyle and traditions.
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ricardo_sousa
12-30-2007, 03:43 PM
Like I have said "the west" this days is an ideology. Lots of countries around the world follow this political, social and economical way of life.

I think that the greatest achievement of the western civilization was the separation between Religion/Government. This way, the "western countries" no longer were tied by "dogmatic views" and they could research new ways of life and domains.

In the Muslim world you have the Turkey example. A Muslin country with no oil that is really making a difference in the world. If Turkey hadn´t clearly separate religion from State, it could have became just like Pakistan or Morocco...
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Amadeus85
12-30-2007, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE=Woodrow;890295]Russia is interesting. I believe that The Country Russia, should be considered Western. However the old USSR should not be.

Cuba

Bolivia

Panama

Argentina
Those countries are latnio american countries.I think that latin american civilization can be thought as one of the other civilization circles.

Greece
vide Russia

Turkey
Well, Turkey is interesting, because Turkey is a country which actually tried to leave one civilization cirlce (Islam) and become member of the other (Europe).But we see nowadays that islam is strong religion and it rebirths every part of time and we see it in Turkey nowadays.

Vatican City
:D It's rather a city or very special type of country.
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Bittersteel
12-30-2007, 03:47 PM
I would cite the Renaissance and the enlightenment and other sorts of revolution for the west's success.Creating empires and colonies i.e. military successes helped also.

In the Muslim world you have the Turkey example. A Muslin country with no oil that is really making a difference in the world. If Turkey hadn´t clearly separate religion from State, it could have became just like Pakistan or Morocco..
what do you mean by like Pakistan or Morocco?Both are becoming increasingly secular from what I am hearing.
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Woodrow
12-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Looking through this further it seems the terms East and West are no longer appropriate guides of delineation of the Nations.

Perhaps the better guides would be:

Industrial Capitalistic--USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand, UK, Pakistan, India, Turkey, Iran, Greece, etc

Industrial Non Capitalistic--Dubai, Mexico, Cuba, Chechnya, Ukraine, China,

Agrarian/Natural resource economies--Saudi, Iraq, Argentina, Afghanistan, Kuwait, etc

Independent separatist--Israel, Vatican City etc

Undeveloped-- Somalia, Ethiopia, etc.


Or perhaps the true division is OPEC nations and Non Opec?

OPEC

The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) is a permanent, intergovernmental Organization, created at the Baghdad Conference on September 10–14, 1960, by Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. The five Founding Members were later joined by nine other Members: Qatar (1961); Indonesia (1962); Socialist Peoples Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (1962); United Arab Emirates (1967); Algeria (1969); Nigeria (1971); Ecuador (1973) -- suspended its membership from December 1992-December 2007; Angola (2007); and Gabon (1975–1994)

NON-OPEC

The rest of the World

OPEC seems to be pretty much a dividing criteria:

Source: http://www.opec.org/aboutus/
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The_Prince
12-30-2007, 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
Like I have said "the west" this days is an ideology. Lots of countries around the world follow this political, social and economical way of life.

I think that the greatest achievement of the western civilization was the separation between Religion/Government. This way, the "western countries" no longer were tied by "dogmatic views" and they could research new ways of life and domains.

In the Muslim world you have the Turkey example. A Muslin country with no oil that is really making a difference in the world. If Turkey hadn´t clearly separate religion from State, it could have became just like Pakistan or Morocco...
morroco, pakistan, they have nothing do with religous rules, pakistans court is followed by british system, morroco have their own ways....nothing to do with religion....

btw, could you name me any REAL BIG differences and major contributions that Turkey has done for humanity?????? you said turkey is making a real difference to the world, i think you meant that positively, well could you name me one? (other than further destabilizing Iraq, oppressing kurds, banning religous freedom ehem opps these are negative, but still do have an effect on major worldy affairs)
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Amadeus85
12-30-2007, 03:49 PM
[QUOTE=ricardo_sousa;890319]
Like I have said "the west" this days is an ideology. Lots of countries around the world follow this political, social and economical way of life.
You are right and you are wrong :). It's true that some asian or african countries are using western type of economy or goverment but it doesnt make them western(vide Japan or South Africa)

I think that the greatest achievement of the western civilization was the separation between Religion/Government. This way, the "western countries" no longer were tied by "dogmatic views" and they could research new ways of life and domains.
It's one of many achievments. Personally I would add human rights. But it's also important.

In the Muslim world you have the Turkey example. A Muslin country with no oil that is really making a difference in the world. If Turkey hadn´t clearly separate religion from State, it could have became just like Pakistan or Morocco...
Well that's a controversial theory for a muslim. It's hard to say for me actually, I dont have clear opinion about this.
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Whatsthepoint
12-30-2007, 04:24 PM
In my opinion the west is defined by greek-roman-judeochristian roots, secularization and materialism.
It includes european protestant and catholic nations, some protestant colonies(New Zealand, Australia, Canada, USA...even South Africa) and Israel.
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wilberhum
12-30-2007, 07:16 PM
What is really wild about this thread is the total lack of argument against the title.

So regardless of why, it seems that everyone is in agreement on one thing:
the west the best
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Keltoi
12-30-2007, 08:19 PM
I take it the title wasn't a pun on the old Doors song?

Anyway, I think when it gets right down to the point, military dominance is the key to any successful empire or civilization. That military dominance opens doors for colonization and cultural influence. Is there any power in the world that could compete militarily against the powers of the West? That includes the U.S., Great Britain, Canada, Germany, France, and on and on? Absolutely not. I'm sure many would point to a Chinese and Russian alliance, but that would hardly be enough.
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Woodrow
12-30-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I take it the title wasn't a pun on the old Doors song?

Anyway, I think when it gets right down to the point, military dominance is the key to any successful empire or civilization. That military dominance opens doors for colonization and cultural influence. Is there any power in the world that could compete militarily against the powers of the West? That includes the U.S., Great Britain, Canada, Germany, France, and on and on? Absolutely not. I'm sure many would point to a Chinese and Russian alliance, but that would hardly be enough.
Yes military strength is the door for colonization. but as history shows military dominance is expensive to uphold and since it is an expense and not a productive tool, it soon becomes too expensive to maintain and causes the fall of the very country it once served. too much expansion and too much military strength, bankrupts a country and cheats its people out of the necessities they tried to hold.
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Cognescenti
12-30-2007, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by adeeb
it's all because of the imperialism and colonization of western country to the eastern...

we have everything here, but we support other country's economic and people.... we work here day and night unpaid, for the western people...

the old story, but change the world forever...
That is a circular argument, adeeb. You have to ask yourself how the Europeans had developed superior technologies, economic power and organizational entities to make colonialism possible in the first place.
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YusufNoor
12-31-2007, 02:35 AM
:sl:

well, Fishman, i voted other; as in all is as Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aa'la has will it to be!

although i can't figure out what Door's song Keltoi is talking about...

:w:
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north_malaysian
12-31-2007, 02:48 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Greece is a bit odd. It is a combination of ancient and modern. I think there can be legitimate argument for calling it either. I personally view it more as Mid-eastern as the language, laws and economy do differ much from what is seen as Western.
Talking about modern Greek culture (food, traditional dress, music, dance etc.), it seems very similar to the Turks or Lebanese.... but by calling them Mid-Eastern, it is like an insult right? Furthermore, Greece is a member of EU.

Maybe we should call the Greeks as Easternized Westerns?:?
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BlackMamba
12-31-2007, 02:59 AM
Islam is not the top of the world anymore because we went away from religion and tried to follow the west. The Muslim countries need to follow the shariah correctly and unite.
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Amadeus85
12-31-2007, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Talking about modern Greek culture (food, traditional dress, music, dance etc.), it seems very similar to the Turks or Lebanese.... but by calling them Mid-Eastern, it is like an insult right? Furthermore, Greece is a member of EU.

Maybe we should call the Greeks as Easternized Westerns?:?
Why not orthodox? :smile:
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north_malaysian
12-31-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Why not orthodox? :smile:
Because in this topic the world is divided into west and east?:okay:

Maybe we can put orthodox in other division with other categories which includes Catholic, Protestant, Sunni, Shia, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist, Freethinker...
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ricardo_sousa
12-31-2007, 05:18 PM
there is no "east ideology". There is the "western society" that can be found in many eastern countries, like Japan, Korea, and now CHina(lol)... I am not saying that culturally is the same, but the economic and social views are pretty much the same.
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Alim Apprentice
12-31-2007, 06:07 PM
I think its mainly military domination and economical power. At present, the dominance by the West is based largely on the latter. They create a monetary system thats partial towards their ideologies, it gets implemented globally, and they reap the rewards at the expense of others. With the huge budget, they can allocate a large portion of it to military research. Once they have deadly arsenals (be it nuclear, biological, chemical..) they can impose their foreign policies and expand their "interests" around the world.. oh and of course, fight the war against terror. With influnce of Western money everywhere, the cycle continues I guess.
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Jayda
12-31-2007, 06:39 PM
lots of things i guess... these things wax and wane, europe is used to this, but i am concerned how america's identity crisis when it is no longer the superlative that it has become accustomed to being.
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Isambard
01-01-2008, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
there is no "east ideology". There is the "western society" that can be found in many eastern countries, like Japan, Korea, and now CHina(lol)... I am not saying that culturally is the same, but the economic and social views are pretty much the same.
No they arnt.
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sudais1
01-01-2008, 07:43 AM
Originally Posted by chosen
I do believe that the united states is blessed because of its support of israel...does that mean israel is right in everything???no it doesnt..even the bible speaks of god punishing israel for its sins..but the same bible calls the supporter of israel to be blessed..

That would be interesting if the bible was never changed and there weren't so many of them.

I agree the United States are blessed they have, The fattest population on earth, the biggest debt in earth, the most hurricane prone country on earth, the dumbest population on earth, the biggest aggressor on earth, The dumbest Leader on earth, Start Wars and lose them, Spend 76 million a day on a War they can never win, have the biggest poverty rate from any of the "developt nations as well". I sure they are Blessed. It's clearly known that the UAE is the most modern most beautiful country on earth. 75% of the worlds oil comes from Muslim Lands, If Saudi Arabia alone took there oil of the west market everything in the United States would completely shutdown for example the 74 crisis. Israel "the blessed" can't even contain Hezbollah, forget Hamas.
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wilberhum
01-01-2008, 08:05 AM
Originally Posted by sudais1
That would be interesting if the bible was never changed and there weren't so many of them.

I agree the United States are blessed they have, The fattest population on earth, the biggest debt in earth, the most hurricane prone country on earth, the dumbest population on earth, the biggest aggressor on earth, The dumbest Leader on earth, Start Wars and lose them, Spend 76 million a day on a War they can never win, have the biggest poverty rate from any of the "developt nations as well". I sure they are Blessed. It's clearly known that the UAE is the most modern most beautiful country on earth. 75% of the worlds oil comes from Muslim Lands, If Saudi Arabia alone took there oil of the west market everything in the United States would completely shutdown for example the 74 crisis. Israel "the blessed" can't even contain Hezbollah, forget Hamas.
The US it truly blessed. You don't live here. :D
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guyabano
01-01-2008, 08:12 AM
Originally Posted by sudais1
That would be interesting if the bible was never changed and there weren't so many of them.

I agree the United States are blessed they have, The fattest population on earth, the biggest debt in earth, the most hurricane prone country on earth, the dumbest population on earth, the biggest aggressor on earth, The dumbest Leader on earth, Start Wars and lose them, Spend 76 million a day on a War they can never win, have the biggest poverty rate from any of the "developt nations as well". I sure they are Blessed. It's clearly known that the UAE is the most modern most beautiful country on earth. 75% of the worlds oil comes from Muslim Lands, If Saudi Arabia alone took there oil of the west market everything in the United States would completely shutdown for example the 74 crisis. Israel "the blessed" can't even contain Hezbollah, forget Hamas.

phhhheewww, I'm so happy, that you don't use a computer, neither MS Windows from BillGates to write this message here. You wouldn't use US technology as you stick deeply to your principles, are you ? May you go to hell if you lie now.
UAE, isn't that the country where they exploit filipino workers and hold them like slaves? And believe me, I'm married to a filipina who has cousins, who work there. I can tell you stories
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Malaikah
01-01-2008, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by chosen
well I am a bible thumping christian...my bible clearly states that those who support israel will be blessed and those who do not will be cursed..so it doesnt really matter what you believe..
Thats a joke, right? Israel the country didn't even exist when the bible was written! Are you sure it wasn't talking about Israel the person, who died thousands of years ago?
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ricardo_sousa
01-01-2008, 10:24 AM
The central question is this: the USA is the most powerful nation in the world, based on it´s society and technology. The Saudi Arabia is only important because it has a natural resource essential to the western societies. So it´s more a "gift from the Gods" the power of Saudi Arabia, and the USA is the result of true human accomplishment.
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omar_2133
01-01-2008, 11:17 AM
It is a combination of factors, primarily including:

  • Industrial Revolution
  • Superior military technology
  • Economic exploitation (resulting in a large wealth inequity betwen the West and other Powers


The first wave of colonialism was able to suceed as their opponents, the Aztec and Native American tribes were centuries back in their development, and were no match for the Europeans, armed with horses, siege weapons, steel armour and gunpowder.

As a result of their success, they had accumulated and pkundered a massive amount of wealth and displaced it, and redistributed it back to the colonizing country. The immense wealth funded a number of projects, including additional explorations, military technology, and most importantly, the Industrial Revolution, which only served to further enchance their capability to colonize more land from more sophisticated and better armed, established civilizations, rather than tribes.

In addition to this, Industrialization and the widespread exploitation of slave labour enabled them to build up their economies into mass-scale, industrial and modernized ones, which allowed the West, their headstart into economic growth and development, into the First-world nations they are today.

The cycle of prosperity which was instigated by the surplus capital, funded the process of industrialization, which in turn resulted in increased capital, which subsequently resulted in the development of more sophisticated technologies.

The new military capabilities unleashed by the Industrial Revolution, the declining power of the civilizations in the East (such as the Islamic World and China), and together with their aggressive colonialist practises, managed to crush their non-industrialized enemies and reduce them to subordinate colonies.

And centuries of economic exploitation have cemented the position of the West as the military and economic superpower of the world, and given it the prestigious place it has today in politics, economics, military power and influence.
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Whatsthepoint
01-01-2008, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by sudais1
That would be interesting if the bible was never changed and there weren't so many of them.

I agree the United States are blessed they have, The fattest population on earth, the biggest debt in earth, the most hurricane prone country on earth, the dumbest population on earth, the biggest aggressor on earth, The dumbest Leader on earth, Start Wars and lose them, Spend 76 million a day on a War they can never win, have the biggest poverty rate from any of the "developt nations as well". I sure they are Blessed. It's clearly known that the UAE is the most modern most beautiful country on earth. 75% of the worlds oil comes from Muslim Lands, If Saudi Arabia alone took there oil of the west market everything in the United States would completely shutdown for example the 74 crisis. Israel "the blessed" can't even contain Hezbollah, forget Hamas.
What would happen to the UAE if the western tourists suddenly stopped going there? What would happen if the west suddenly stopped buying oil from them?
There is not a single truelly independent nation today.
Israel could destroy Hezbollah in matter of weeks if not days but it somehow decided to stick with at least some of the international conventions and laws regarding warfare...
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