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thirdwatch512
12-30-2007, 04:48 AM
Hello all!

About 2 months ago a man asked me to study the science of the hadiths. So, on and off I have been studying it!

I guess there is a category of the hadiths called "Mutawatir", which are hadiths narrated by more then one person, so it is rare that they were made up and such.

So on al-islam.com(I think the saudi government site) there is a section with a list of these hadiths. One of them is this one..

'Ubadah bin Al-Samit, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) observed: He who says: There is no god but Allah, He is One and there is no associate with Him, that Muhammad is His servant and His messenger, that Christ is His servant and the son of His female-slave and he (Christ) is His word which He communicated to Mary and is a spirit from Him, that Paradise is a fact and Hell is a fact, Allah would make him enter Paradise through anyone of its eight doors which he would like.
Muslim # 41
&
Anas bin Malik, may Allah be pleased with him, reported:
Allah's Prophet (may peace and blessings be upon him) addressed Mu'adh bin Jabal as he was riding behind him: O Mu'adh. He replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah. He again called out: Mu'adh, to which he (again) replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure. He (the Holy Prophet) addressed him (again): Mu'adh, to which he replied: At your beck and call, and at your pleasure, Messenger of Allah. Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) observed: If anyone testifies (sincerely from his heart) that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His bondsman and His messenger, Allah immunizes him from Hell. He then added: I asked the Messenger of Allah: should I then give the tiding to the people? He the Holy Prophet said: Do not tell them this good news, for they would depend on this alone.
Muslim # 47
So what these two nice hadiths seem to intend, is that anyone muslim can go to heaven, even if they do sin and such.

So my question is: Is this an islamic belief, that as long as you have iman in allah you will eventually reach jannah? Or do some muslims go to eternal hell as well?

I have always thought that those who commit zina, and drink, and all other haram things, and did it KNOWING that they were sinning, and missing their prayers, would be in eternal hell in islam. But this hadith(to me at least, unless I have it wrong) seems to say that anyone with iman can go to jannah.

So I was just wondering about this, as I do not want to make any assumptions without asking muslims their views.

Thanks!
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thirdwatch512
01-21-2008, 04:37 AM
Not only that, but
The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. I asked (Gabriel), ‘Even if he committed theft, and even if he committed illegal sexual intercourse?’ He said, ‘(Yes), even if he committed theft, and even if he Committed illegal sexual intercourse.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 579)

I came to the Prophet while he was wearing white clothes and sleeping. Then I went back to him again after he had got up from his sleep. He said, “Nobody says: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’ and then later on he dies while believing in that, except that he will enter Paradise.” I said, “Even It he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even if he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft? He said. “Even If he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and theft.” I said, “Even it he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and thefts.” He said, “Even If he had committed Illegal sexual intercourse and theft, in spite of Abu Dharr’s dislikeness. Abu ‘Abdullah said, “This is at the time of death or before it if one repents and regrets and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717)
So do these intend that all Muslims go to paradise eventually?
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جوري
01-21-2008, 04:46 AM
I believe what you should gather from all of this, is that the intent is what will lead to a particular outcome..

a person can fool all people with piety and good deeds and charity, but inside is a hypocrite a regular tartuffe, can I tell? can you tell? can anyone draw information on the intent of a man based on hadiths and the Quran? if it were that easy there would be no need for judgement.

Yes, God forgives all sins save for two..
and yes, his punishment is severe!


Again, it isn't us who know and I'll reference you to this verse:

74: 30 ------------وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ --------------

---None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him---

peace!
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Z-Blade
01-21-2008, 04:54 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Not only that, but


So do these intend that all Muslims go to paradise eventually?
Hello,

If done with the proper intention, you really will be immunized from hell as you would have changed your perception on life and will be doing everything for Allah.

As for your question, you are correct:

Quran 21:47

Hadith Bukhari vol 1 book 2 hadith 021,
The Prophet Said," When the people of Paradise will enter Paradise and the people of Hell will go to Hell, Allah(swt) will order those who have the faith equal to the weight of a grain of Mustard seed to be taken out from Hell. So they will be taken out but they will be blackened. Then they will be put into the river of Haya'or Hayat, and they will revive like a grain that grows near the bank of a flood channel. Do you see that it comes out yellow and twisted."

Bukhari Vol ( , Book 93
TThe Prophet Said," On the Day of Resurrection I will intercede and say, "O my Lord! Admit into Paradise(even) those who have faith equal to a Mustard seed in their heats." Such people will enter Paradise, and then I will say,'O Allah admit into Paradise even those who have the least amount of faith in their hearts."

Bukhari Hadith 042, Vol 1 Book2
Bukhari Hadith 559 Vol 3 Book 40
Bukhari Hadith 532B vol (, Book 93

Hope that helps. :)

Peace out.
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Z-Blade
01-21-2008, 05:00 AM
Sorry, that wasn't a full answer, here's a very good hadith explaining intercession in Islam:

Volumn 009, Book 093, Hadith Number 601.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ma'bad bin Hilal Al'Anzi : We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.'

They would come to me and I would say, 'I am for that.' Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' It will be said, 'Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, 'O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers!' Then He will say, 'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."'

When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said ! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it.

Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.'"

Peace out.
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thirdwatch512
01-21-2008, 10:51 PM
Hello, thanks for the response! Might i ask, are those mutuwar hadith, and do they have good isnads? Just wondering to see!

Thanks!
Reply

InToTheRain
01-22-2008, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Hello, thanks for the response! Might i ask, are those mutuwar hadith, and do they have good isnads? Just wondering to see!

Thanks!
All the hadiths posted by Z-blade above are from Sahih (correct) Bukhari. Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim Hadiths are all authentic and accepted. Both books only contain hadiths with strong Isnad which makes them Sahi therefore they only contain Sahih Hadiths hence the name Sahih before both books.
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anatolian
01-22-2008, 01:03 AM
Accordng to the faith of Ahli Sunnah wa al-Jamaah the one who professes the Islamic faith creed and dies on this goes to the paradise evantually.

But it is interesting that Saudi arabia's official web-site shows you these hadiths but teaches you otherwise wich is that If you break any of the 5 pillars you get out of Islam.
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Z-Blade
01-22-2008, 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Accordng to the faith of Ahli Sunnah wa al-Jamaah the one who professes the Islamic faith creed and dies on this goes to the paradise evantually.

But it is interesting that Saudi arabia's official web-site shows you these hadiths but teaches you otherwise wich is that If you break any of the 5 pillars you get out of Islam.
:salamext:,

Indeed, it is not about not fulfilling any of the 5 pillars (though this counts as a major sin), but rather disbelieving and rejecting it. This makes one into a kafir.

Wassalam.
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thirdwatch512
01-22-2008, 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Accordng to the faith of Ahli Sunnah wa al-Jamaah the one who professes the Islamic faith creed and dies on this goes to the paradise evantually.

But it is interesting that Saudi arabia's official web-site shows you these hadiths but teaches you otherwise wich is that If you break any of the 5 pillars you get out of Islam.
hey, is this anatolian from CF? If so, hi! I am francais on CF. :) If not, well still hey!

Anyways yeah, that is why it seemed confusing to me. Like these Hadiths are clear that any Muslim believer would get into Jannah according to Islamic beliefs. And most Muslims I have talked to affirm this. But then you have those like some Saudi's that say it is not true!
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Malaikah
01-22-2008, 05:23 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
I guess there is a category of the hadiths called "Mutawatir", which are hadiths narrated by more then one person, so it is rare that they were made up and such.
Hi,

First off, this definitin of mutawatir hadith is incorrect. Mutawatir hadiths are those that are narrated by so many people that it is impossible for them to have agreed upon a lie.

So my question is: Is this an islamic belief, that as long as you have iman in allah you will eventually reach jannah? Or do some muslims go to eternal hell as well?
Yes, all Muslims will eventually go to Paradise, regardless of what sin they commit.

I have always thought that those who commit zina, and drink, and all other haram things, and did it KNOWING that they were sinning, and missing their prayers, would be in eternal hell in islam. But this hadith(to me at least, unless I have it wrong) seems to say that anyone with iman can go to jannah.
Yes, that is correct, all Muslims will go to Paradise. Some will enter it without being punished in hell first. Others, who were not forgiven for their sins, must stay in hell for some time before they can enter Paradise.

The duration of time spent by a person in hell depends on the number of unforgiven sins they have.

(Except for what you have mentioned about prayer- there is a difference of opinion. Many scholars are of the opinion that a person who does not pray is not a Muslim and therefore will stay in hell forever.)

Originally Posted by anatolian
But it is interesting that Saudi arabia's official web-site shows you these hadiths but teaches you otherwise wich is that If you break any of the 5 pillars you get out of Islam.
Firstly, Saudi Arabia is only a country and it is the scholars who come up with those rulings, and scholars differ in their opinion. Secondly it isn't only Saudi scholars who follow that opinion, and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars does not contradict these hadiths at all.
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syilla
01-22-2008, 07:33 AM
:salamext:

Just one question. Eventhough muslims will eventually enter paradise but every muslims should be afraid of being one of the munafiq or shirk right?

And a munafiq or someone who is shirk will not enter paradise?

oops sorry two questions actually.
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taybe smiler
01-22-2008, 07:59 AM
And a munafiq or someone who is shirk will not enter paradise?

وَإِذَا رَأَيْتَهُمْ تُعْجِبُكَ أَجْسَامُهُمْ وَإِنْ يَقُولُوا تَسْمَعْ لِقَوْلِهِمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ خُشُبٌ مُسَنَّدَةٌ يَحْسَبُونَ كُلَّ صَيْحَةٍ عَلَيْهِمْ هُمْ الْعَدُوُّ فَاحْذَرْهُمْ قَاتَلَهُمْ اللَّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ
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taybe smiler
01-22-2008, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by taybe smiler
And a munafiq or someone who is shirk will not enter paradise?

سورة المنافقون ايه 4

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
وَإِذَا رَأَيْتَهُمْ تُعْجِبُكَ أَجْسَامُهُمْ وَإِنْ يَقُولُوا تَسْمَعْ لِقَوْلِهِمْ كَأَنَّهُمْ خُشُبٌ مُسَنَّدَةٌ يَحْسَبُونَ كُلَّ صَيْحَةٍ عَلَيْهِمْ هُمْ الْعَدُوُّ فَاحْذَرْهُمْ قَاتَلَهُمْ اللَّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ
:smile:
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anatolian
01-22-2008, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
hey, is this anatolian from CF? If so, hi! I am francais on CF. :) If not, well still hey!
Wa Alaykum Salam.Yes same anotolian.

Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Anyways yeah, that is why it seemed confusing to me. Like these Hadiths are clear that any Muslim believer would get into Jannah according to Islamic beliefs. And most Muslims I have talked to affirm this. But then you have those like some Saudi's that say it is not true!
This is because of their ****** understanding.
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anatolian
01-22-2008, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Firstly, Saudi Arabia is only a country and it is the scholars who come up with those rulings, and scholars differ in their opinion. Secondly it isn't only Saudi scholars who follow that opinion, and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars does not contradict these hadiths at all.
Salam Aleykum.I know that Saudi Arabia is a country,I mean those wah-habi scholars of Saudi arabia and the others no matter which country they live in.They call muslims kaafir who miss one of the five pillars,as far as I know..And we know that calling a muslim kafir makes the accuser a kafir!!!

"and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars does not contradict these hadiths at all" Sorry but I couldn't understand this...
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snakelegs
01-22-2008, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
LOL. "wah-habi" is forbiden to type?
the politically correct term here is "salafi" :D
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anatolian
01-22-2008, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by anatolian
This is because of their ****** understanding.
Here I say "wah-habi"
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anatolian
01-22-2008, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
the politically correct term here is "salafi" :D
But they have different meanings..
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chacha_jalebi
01-22-2008, 10:58 PM
salaam

1st of all the term "w-ahabbi" is a self made term by some people, its after sheikh abdul wahab who came and taught the true islaam and what does it mean wahab = 1 of Allah (swt) names and it means bestower, so by calling someone a w-habi your not insulting them your just callin them a bestower, and lets just say a bestower of the true deen eh:p because sheikh Abdul wahabs teachings were the true islaam :D

also Allah hu Alim, who goes jannah and jahannam, i think the hadiths just show how important it is to believe in the shahada there are several hadiths about the shahada, but just because if we believe it, then we shouldnt just give up doing stuff, we should pray our salaah and fast and give zakaah

Originally Posted by anatolian
Salam Aleykum.I know that Saudi Arabia is a country,I mean those wah-habi scholars of Saudi arabia and the others no matter which country they live in.They call muslims kaafir who miss one of the five pillars,as far as I know..And we know that calling a muslim kafir makes the accuser a kafir!!!
lol always blame the saudis eh :mmokay:

some hadiths of RasoolAllah (sal Allah hu aleyhi wasalam) to clarify it up, that if you do break some pillars then . . . .

Buraidah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "That which differentiates us from the disbelievers and hypocrites is our performance of Salat. He who abandons it, becomes a disbeliever.''[At-Tirmidhi]

Shaqiq bin `Abdullah reported: The Companions of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) did not consider the abandonment of any action as disbelief except neglecting Salat.[At-Tirmidhi]

Jabir (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "Between a man and disbelief and paganism is the abandonment of Salat (prayer).''
[Muslim]
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krypton6
01-22-2008, 11:17 PM
Even agnosts (agnostic?) can go to heaven. Believe it or not! And perhaps some atheists can too.

Imagine a atheist who have spend his entire life murdering people for no reason other than satisfaction, and then imagine a atheist doctor who just havent got the believe of god inside of him even though he wishes it to occur.

The good atheist will go through hell but eventually he too will reach heaven!

So I believe...
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snakelegs
01-23-2008, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by krypton6
Even agnosts (agnostic?) can go to heaven. Believe it or not! And perhaps some atheists can too.

Imagine a atheist who have spend his entire life murdering people for no reason other than satisfaction, and then imagine a atheist doctor who just havent got the believe of god inside of him even though he wishes it to occur.

The good atheist will go through hell but eventually he too will reach heaven!

So I believe...
where on earth did you get this?
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Malaikah
01-23-2008, 01:47 AM
Originally Posted by anatolian
Salam Aleykum.I know that Saudi Arabia is a country,I mean those wah-habi scholars of Saudi arabia and the others no matter which country they live in.They call muslims kaafir who miss one of the five pillars,as far as I know..And we know that calling a muslim kafir makes the accuser a kafir!!!
:sl:

First of all, they are not wah-habis.

Secondly, if a person is committing an act of kufr, then they may be a kafir! Just because they call themselves a Muslim doesn't mean they are one. The point you raise about calling a Muslim a kafir makes you a kafir only applies in the case there the accusation is unjustified.

It is also uncommon as far as I know for scholars to include all the five pillars, generally they will include the shahadah, prayer and zakat only.

There are acts that make a Muslim a disbeliever, even if the person says the shahadah. For example, if a person calls himself a Muslim but says that the Quran is not from Allah. Is that person still a Muslim? Or what about the person who says that there is no Day of Judgement, heaven or hell? Is that person a Muslim? Of course not!

An even more radical example, is if the person says the shahadah but worships an idol as well. For sure this person is not a Muslim!

In the same way, according to some scholars, a person who does not pray or pay zakat is not a Muslim either, and they did not make this up themselves either, they came to this conclusion based on the Quran and hadiths.

And that is not a wah-habi thing!


"and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars does not contradict these hadiths at all" Sorry but I couldn't understand this...
Sorry, I meant to say:

"and thirdly the opinion that breaking any of the five pillars makes a person a kafir does not contradict these hadiths at all"

If you can't understand how that is true, think about the points I mentioned above. A Muslim who does not believe the Quran is from Allah, or that there is Heaven and hell, or even that Jesus or Abraham or Moses were Prophets. Are these people Muslims? No they aren't!* (And if I remember correctly there is consensus of the scholars on this point, therefore you can't say it is a wah-habi thing).

So based on that, I hope you can see how these hadith do not contradict the idea that leaving one of the five pillars may be an act of disbelief.

Originally Posted by anatolian
But they have different meanings..
There is no different meaning, akhi. The people who call themselves salafis are called wah-habis by others. Generally there is no group that calls themselves wah-habis!

*the exception could be if they were ignorant, but it depends on other factors too whether that exception is valid for a person.
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Malaikah
01-23-2008, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by krypton6
Even agnosts (agnostic?) can go to heaven. Believe it or not! And perhaps some atheists can too.

Imagine a atheist who have spend his entire life murdering people for no reason other than satisfaction, and then imagine a atheist doctor who just havent got the believe of god inside of him even though he wishes it to occur.

The good atheist will go through hell but eventually he too will reach heaven!
:sl:

Do you have a source for where you found this information. Because as far as I know this belief is totally wrong.

The only way that I know of that a non-Muslim can enter paradise is if they died upon disbelief without first know what Islam is or understand the message. In their case they may enter paradise or they may not, it is up to Allah to decided their case.
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thirdwatch512
01-23-2008, 05:56 AM
So, basically according to Islam, all believers will eventually get into Jannah?

Cool!
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Malaikah
01-23-2008, 06:16 AM
Yes, eventual...
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Z-Blade
01-26-2008, 03:20 AM
:salamext:

Originally Posted by Malaikah
Yes, eventual...
Yes, because not every Muslim deserves Jannah to begin with. Some may even murder/rape/steal and not repent, and this is especially when they are deserving of hell to be purified first before being able to enter Jannah.

Wassalam.
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sur
01-26-2008, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

So what these two nice hadiths seem to intend, is that anyone muslim can go to heaven, even if they do sin and such.
To get true concept/spirit of a saying of Prophet we gotta look at ALL ahadees mentioning a particular incident, coz some narrators of ahadees may mave missed some point that prophet said & other narrator gives true & more complete picture.


So what i understand by reading ahadees u gave & some more ahadees mentioning same saying of prophet in somewhat different words, is that, If some one does NOT associate partners with God Almighty he'll eventually go to paradise & will NOT stay in hell for ever.


Such a person can be Muslim, Unitarian christian, Messianic Jew, or Jew etc , since all of then believe in GOD as one undividable entity.


While Trinitarian Christians & Pagans, associate a Human Prophet & a Spirit Created by GOD & idols as equal to GOD. & ask intercession from non-living non-hearing like from Mary(Mar'yam) & from Saints etc.(Q:9:31)



So my question is: Is this an islamic belief, that as long as you have iman in Allah you will eventually reach jannah? Or do some muslims go to eternal hell as well?
God knows best, but what i understand, many muslms who seek intercession from dead(Q:35:22) like at graves of Sufis/pious & like some shias say Ali(ra) was god & pray to him for help & some(like Tahir-ul-Qadri) also permit seeking intercession to Prophet Muhammad(saww) while he's dead, all r commiting shirk.


[Quran:10:18] They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform God of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

[32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?


[35:22] Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. God can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.



Prophet Muhammad(saww) was able to intercede ONLY when he was alive in front of ppl asking him to pray on their behalf like praying for rain etc.

& he'll intercede ONLY when he'll be alive again in hereafter & we'll also be alive & ppl would ask him to intercede b/w them & GOD. All ahadees regarding intercession by Prophet r about him interceding in hereafter when all would be ressurected & Prophet would be living & hearing.


I have always thought that those who commit zina, and drink, and all other haram things, and did it KNOWING that they were sinning, and missing their prayers, would be in eternal hell in islam. But this hadith(to me at least, unless I have it wrong) seems to say that anyone with iman can go to jannah.
such sinner's will go to hell 1st & then after due punishment will be taken out of hell, provided they did NOT make partners with God Almighty in worshipping & in prayers.(Prayed to GOD directly)
Reply

sur
01-26-2008, 03:01 PM
anyone agreeing or disagreeing!!!
(in other words; "BUMP") :D
Reply

snakelegs
01-26-2008, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by sur

So what i understand by reading ahadees u gave & some more ahadees mentioning same saying of prophet in somewhat different words, is that, If some one does NOT associate partners with God Almighty he'll eventually go to paradise & will NOT stay in hell for ever.


Such a person can be Muslim, Unitarian christian, Messianic Jew, or Jew etc , since all of then believe in GOD as one undividable entity.


While Trinitarian Christians & Pagans, associate a Human Prophet & a Spirit Created by GOD & idols as equal to GOD. & ask intercession from non-living non-hearing like from Mary(Mar'yam) & from Saints etc.(Q:9:31)
i've never read this before!
i've always read that if a person knows about islam and does not become muslim - he goes to hell. even if he believed in the oneness of God.
Reply

sur
01-26-2008, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i've never read this before!
i've always read that if a person knows about islam and does not become muslim - he goes to hell. even if he believed in the oneness of God.
I was not sure myself, still trying to figure out.
This aayah & following 2 Ahadees support my point:-
[Q:2:62]Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


The Prophet said, Gabriel came to me and gave me the glad tidings that anyone who died without worshipping anything besides Allah, would enter Paradise. ..........” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 579)

......“Nobody says: ‘[U]None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’ and then later on he dies while believing in that, except that he will enter Paradise.........This is at the time of death or before it if one repents and regrets and says ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, he will be forgiven his sins.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 72, Number 717)
Reply

snakelegs
01-26-2008, 08:27 PM
wow - interesting!
thanks.
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-26-2008, 08:46 PM
Originally Posted by sur
To get true concept/spirit of a saying of Prophet we gotta look at ALL ahadees mentioning a particular incident, coz some narrators of ahadees may mave missed some point that prophet said & other narrator gives true & more complete picture.


So what i understand by reading ahadees u gave & some more ahadees mentioning same saying of prophet in somewhat different words, is that, If some one does NOT associate partners with God Almighty he'll eventually go to paradise & will NOT stay in hell for ever.


Such a person can be Muslim, Unitarian christian, Messianic Jew, or Jew etc , since all of then believe in GOD as one undividable entity.


While Trinitarian Christians & Pagans, associate a Human Prophet & a Spirit Created by GOD & idols as equal to GOD. & ask intercession from non-living non-hearing like from Mary(Mar'yam) & from Saints etc.(Q:9:31)
Well, I have to disagree. The Qu'ran says that any religion other than Islam would not be accepted in Al Dunya!!

Of course, some dispute what "Islam" is.. Some say it is just submission to one almighty God. However, should not the author of the Qu'ran used the word "Haniah" for that or something? I mean, looking into context, Islam is the religion that follows Allah and Allah's Apostle.(Which, according to Muslims, is Muhammad.) But Christians do not do that! Nor do Jews, or any other non Muslims.

God knows best, but what i understand, many muslms who seek intercession from dead(Q:35:22) like at graves of Sufis/pious & like some shias say Ali(ra) was god & pray to him for help & some(like Tahir-ul-Qadri) also permit seeking intercession to Prophet Muhammad(saww) while he's dead, all r commiting shirk.
That is probably true. After all, they are committing Bid'dah!

Now you mentioned Tahir Ul Qadri.. Which is interesting. Because in July on CF, youu posted this picture of "Muhammad's name written in the sky" and you posted and article about 400,000 people attending some conference, and ul qadri was mentioning the name of Muhammad. He then said that he wish he had a marker board to write the name so all could say. And I guess "miraculously" the name appeared in the sky!

You were heavily promoting that as I remember. Now you are saying that he commits shirk though! At a personal level, I like ul qadri, because he is pretty moderate and liberal. But I can not even deny that some of his beliefs are very un islamic!

[Quran:10:18] They serve, besides God, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with God." Say: "Do ye indeed inform God of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

[32:4] It is God Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six Days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of Authority): ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): will ye not then receive admonition?


[35:22] Nor are alike those that are living and those that are dead. God can make any that He wills to hear; but thou canst not make those to hear who are (buried) in graves.



Prophet Muhammad(saww) was able to intercede ONLY when he was alive in front of ppl asking him to pray on their behalf like praying for rain etc.

& he'll intercede ONLY when he'll be alive again in hereafter & we'll also be alive & ppl would ask him to intercede b/w them & GOD. All ahadees regarding intercession by Prophet r about him interceding in hereafter when all would be ressurected & Prophet would be living & hearing.
Interesting!


such sinner's will go to hell 1st & then after due punishment will be taken out of hell, provided they did NOT make partners with God Almighty in worshipping & in prayers.(Prayed to GOD directly)
[/quote]
Cool! It sort of reminds me of the Catholic view! Basically, you are bad, you get punished, but only for a period of time!(If you are a Catholic obviously. Non believers get it different according to Church!)
Reply

snakelegs
01-26-2008, 08:58 PM
i wonder what if a person never belonged to any religion (= not "people of the book") but believed in the oneness of God.
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-26-2008, 09:25 PM
According to the Qu'ran, Sunnah, and early scholars(as well as most now), if they denied Islam, they would be in hell, since they refused to accept the message!(Unless they never heard of it, then it is of no fault to them.)
Reply

Z-Blade
01-27-2008, 02:56 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i've never read this before!
i've always read that if a person knows about islam and does not become muslim - he goes to hell. even if he believed in the oneness of God.
Hello,

Yes, such a person will go to hell, but will eventually go to paradise if he truly believed in the One True God (that Jews/Christians/Muslims believe in) and does no shirk. Allah can forgive any sin except shirk, and even then shirk is only unforgivable in the hereafter, whereas if we was to do shirk in this life and repent, we will be forgiven by the Mercy of Allah inshaAllah.

And Allah knows best.

I thought I'll also post up the tafsir for the verse brother sur posted (from Tafsir Ibn Kathir):

"(2:62. Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians (Sabi'in), whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.)


Faith and doing Righteous Deeds equals Salvation in all Times
After Allah described the condition - and punishment - of those who defy His commands, fall into His prohibitions and transgress set limits by committing prohibited acts, He stated that the earlier nations who were righteous and obedient received the rewards for their good deeds. This shall be the case, until the Day of Judgment. Therefore, whoever follows the unlettered Messenger and Prophet shall acquire eternal happiness and shall neither fear from what will happen in the future nor become sad for what has been lost in the past. Similarly, Allah said,

﴿أَلا إِنَّ أَوْلِيَآءَ اللَّهِ لاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ ﴾

(No doubt! Verily, the Awliya' of Allah, no fear shall come upon them nor shall they grieve) (10:62).

The angels will proclaim to the dying believers, as mentioned,

﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَـمُواْ تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ أَلاَّ تَخَافُواْ وَلاَ تَحْزَنُواْ وَأَبْشِرُواْ بِالْجَنَّةِ الَّتِى كُنتُمْ تُوعَدُونَ ﴾ (Verily, those who say: "Our Lord is Allah (alone),'' and then they stand firm, on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): "Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!''). (41:30)



The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer
`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,

﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,

﴿وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ﴾

(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85). This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.



Why the Jews were called `Yahud
The Jews are the followers of Prophet Musa, who used to refer to the Tawrah for judgment. Yahud is a word that means, `repenting', just as Musa said, ﴿إِنَّا هُدْنَـآ إِلَيْكَ﴾




Why the christians were called nasara


﴿مَنْ أَنصَارِى إِلَى اللَّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنْصَارُ اللَّهِ﴾

("Who will be my helpers in Allah's cause'' Al-Hawariyyun said: "We are the helpers of Allah.'') (61:14)

It was said that they were called `Nasara', because they inhabited a land called An-Nasirah (Nazareth), as Qatadah, Ibn Jurayj and Ibn `Abbas were reported to have said, Allah knows best. Nasara is certainly plural for Nasran. When Allah sent Muhammad as the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger to all of the Children of Adam, mankind was required to believe in him, obey him and refrain from what he prohibited them; those who do this are true believers. The Ummah of Muhammad was called `Mu'minin' (believers), because of the depth of their faith and certainty, and because they believe in all of the previous Prophets and matters of the Unseen.



The Sabi'un or Sabians
There is a difference of opinion over the identity of the Sabians. Sufyan Ath-Thawri said that Layth bin Abu Sulaym said that Mujahid said that, "The Sabians are between the Majus, the Jews and the Christians. They do not have a specific religion.'' Similar is reported from Ibn Abi Najih. Similar statements were attributed to `Ata' and Sa`id bin Jubayr. They (others) say that the Sabians are a sect among the People of the Book who used to read the Zabur (Psalms), others say that they are a people who worshipped the angels or the stars. It appears that the closest opinion to the truth, and Allah knows best, is Mujahid's statement and those who agree with him like Wahb bin Munabbih, that the Sabians are neither Jews nor Christians nor Majus nor polytheists. Rather, they did not have a specific religion that they followed and enforced, because they remained living according to their Fitrah (instinctual nature). This is why the idolators used to call whoever embraced Islam a `Sabi', meaning, that he abandoned all religions that existed on the earth. Some scholars stated that the Sabians are those who never received a message by any Prophet. And Allah knows best."


Peace out.
Reply

Malaikah
01-27-2008, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by sur
[Q:2:62]Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
:sl:

The verse does not support the argument that religions other than Islam will be accepted...

Z-blade posted the tafsir of the verse, and I just want to highlight the essential part:

The Meaning of Mu'min, or Believer`Ali bin Abi Talhah narrated from Ibn `Abbas, about,

﴿إِنَّ الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَـرَى وَالصَّـبِئِينَ مَنْ ءَامَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ﴾

(Verily, those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day) that Allah revealed the following Ayah afterwards,

﴿وَمَن يَبْتَغِ غَيْرَ الإِسْلَـمِ دِينًا فَلَن يُقْبَلَ مِنْهُ وَهُوَ فِى الاٌّخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ ﴾

(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85). This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.
In other words: the verse only counts to those living before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh came with his message.
Reply

snakelegs
01-27-2008, 09:21 AM
this has been an interesting discussion, though i must say what malaikah posted is in line with everything i've read until this thread and that is:
(And whoever seeks religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers) (3:85). This statement by Ibn `Abbas indicates that Allah does not accept any deed or work from anyone, unless it conforms to the Law of Muhammad that is, after Allah sent Muhammad . Before that, every person who followed the guidance of his own Prophet was on the correct path, following the correct guidance and was saved.
Reply

sur
01-27-2008, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Now you mentioned Tahir Ul Qadri.. Which is interesting. Because in July on CF, youu posted this picture of "Muhammad's name written in the sky" and you posted and article about 400,000 people attending some conference, and ul qadri was mentioning the name of Muhammad. He then said that he wish he had a marker board to write the name so all could say. And I guess "miraculously" the name appeared in the sky!

You were heavily promoting that as I remember. Now you are saying that he commits shirk though! At a personal level, I like ul qadri, because he is pretty moderate and liberal. But I can not even deny that some of his beliefs are very un islamic!
No Francais, u r forgetting.
I didn't posted any pics with Muhammad written. & i never supported Tahir-ul-Qadri. That must be some one else.

But i remember i posted a link to wikipedia's article just for info on Tahir-ul-Qadri.
Reply

sur
01-27-2008, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i wonder what if a person never belonged to any religion (= not "people of the book") but believed in the oneness of God.
I think, if they were so coz of lack of knowledge, they will be judged on what ever deeds they do, like their behviour to parents, spouse, children, society etc.
Reply

sur
01-27-2008, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

The verse does not support the argument that religions other than Islam will be accepted...

Z-blade posted the tafsir of the verse, and I just want to highlight the essential part:

In other words: the verse only counts to those living before the Prophet Muhammad pbuh came with his message.
:w:

how can this be refering to ppl before Prophet while it's informing Prophet of situation during that time. Another such aayah is:-



[Q:3:113]Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand for the right(tense used is Muzare' which applied to present & future): They read verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.[114]They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.[115]Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them;(no past tense being used so it does NOT refer to ppl before Prophet) for God knoweth well those that do right.[116]Indeed those(of POB) who reject - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).
Reply

sur
01-27-2008, 11:35 AM
First a summary of what i'm gonna contend in following post:-POB(ppl of Book) who don’t follow Prophet Muhammad for lack of proper knowledge of their scriptures where he was foretold, BUT who follow their scriptures in right way, believing in oneness of God & praying to HIM only(like Unitarians, Sabians, Messianic Jews, Jews etc), Fasting, Giving charity & striving for other good deeds, will be considered as Muslims(following Islam) as defined by Hadeees;Bukhari:2:47. & will have reward for their good deeds Q:3:113.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


POB = ppl of Book, Q = Quran,

Like my previous post, I’m NOT issuing any fatwa, just presenting my POV in light of Quran & Hadees. I’d love others to prove me wrong but with evidence.


= = = = = = = = =


First understand difference b/w “Faith-Islam” & “Religion-Islam” by following Hadees:-

Bukhari:2:47:-
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour..." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.



Now, as I understand it, Ibraheem was the first when terms “Muslim” “Islam” were used.Q:22:78.
Then ALL prophets after him were “Muslims”. But were sent to only a particular group of ppl, while Muhammad(saww) was sent for whole mankind


Mosa was a Muslim. Eesa & his disciples were Muslims Q:3:52. It was later that Trinitarians made Jesus & Holy Spirit as equal to God Q:3:80 [/COLOR]& fought with unitarians over this issue Q:2:253.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Previous prophets also used to preach Charity & Fasting alongside of Prayers.:-

Fasting with prayers:-

Luke:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes(Charity) of all that I possess.Luke:5:33: And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
MT:4:2: And when he(Jesus) had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.(Also; 1sam:7:6, 31:13, 2sam:12:16, 1chron:10:12, ezra:8:23, neh:1:4, acts:13:3, 14:23, 1cor:7:5)


Compulsory Charity:-
Luke:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes(Charity) of all that I possess.Luke:18:22: Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(Also; 1cor:16:14, 2thess:1:3, 1tim:1:5, 2:15)



So a TRUE Follower of Mosa & Eesa will be the one who will believe in oneness of God & will give Charity & will Fast alongside of establishing Prayers & other good deeds. & as Hadees above said these things constitute Religion-Islam, so such POB will be a Muslim(following Islam).


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


Now, I think, Quran refer to such a TRUE follower of Previous Prophets who establish prayers/charity/fasting & worship & pray to God Almighty alone & none else(praying to non-living is considered as worship), that such will have their reward:-
[Q:2:62]Those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness(prayers, charity, fasting, etc), shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.


In following too, Quran refer to such TRUE Followers out of POB, since previous prophets were also muslims:-
[Q:3:85]If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (Compare these to ranks of righteous in following verse).


[Q:3:113]Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand for the right: They read verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.[114]They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.[115]Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knoweth well those that do right.[116]Indeed those(of POB) who reject - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).
Word “Kafir” means “Who Rejects, Refuses to follow”. So Q:3:116 refer those POB as “Kafir” who refuse original teaching of their prophets, like Fasting & Charity & believe in oneness of God etc.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


All above was about Righteous-POB who deny Muhammad(saww) coz of lack of enough knowledge or being mis-guided by their scholars. But if any POB deny Muhammad knowingly, understanding that he’s the one prophecised in previous scriptures, such will be in trouble.


POB, thru their prophets, were under oath to follow upcoming Prophet Muhammad Q:3:81. Many POB deny such promise Q:3:77 & 86.


[Q:3:77]As for those who sell the faith they owe to God and their own plighted word for a small price, they shall have no portion in the Hereafter: Nor will God (Deign to) speak to them or look at them on the Day of Judgment, nor will He cleans them (of sin): They shall have a grievous penalty.
[Q:3:81]Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." God said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."
[Q:3:86]How shall God Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that this Apostle is true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but God guides not a people unjust.
Reply

Malaikah
01-27-2008, 11:50 AM
:sl:

Borther are you trying to reach this conclusion bsed on your own knowledge? Or are you reiterating what you have learned from a qualified shaykh?

Because if is the later, you are not qualified to do so, and therefore it is not permissible for you to analysis the evidence yourself and try to come to a conclusion.

Originally Posted by sur
[Q:3:113]Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand for the right(tense used is Muzare' which applied to present & future): They read verses of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.[114]They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.[115]Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them;(no past tense being used so it does NOT refer to ppl before Prophet) for God knoweth well those that do right.[116]Indeed those(of POB) who reject - neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against God: They will be companions of the Fire,- dwelling therein (for ever).
As for this verse, I check my tafsir ibn kathir book and it says very clearly that this is referring to the people of the book who embraced Islam.
Reply

sur
01-27-2008, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Borther are you trying to reach this conclusion bsed on your own knowledge? Or are you reiterating what you have learned from a qualified shaykh?
:w:
No, i am reaching conclusion based on clear verses of Quran & Hadees , NOT my own knowledge.

If u think i'm wrong, prove it instead of just condemning me.

If Mr.Khateer proves me wrong present his exegesis.

Because if is the later, you are not qualified to do so, and therefore it is not permissible for you to analysis the evidence yourself and try to come to a conclusion.
so according to ur logic we should stop reading Quran & Hadees ourselves & start following other's blindly.

As for this verse, I check my tafsir ibn kathir book and it says very clearly that this is referring to the people of the book who embraced Islam.
I don't think we need any tafsir for such a clear & self explanatory verse.!!!
From no angle it refer to ppl of Book who converted to Islam. Did Mr.Khateer explained how it refers to converts???

Ibn-e-Khateer's personal liking & dislikings aren't gonna change meaning of Quran. He was not a prophet of God that what he said was absolutely right & we must believe in him even when verse does not indicate any conversion or belief in Prophet Muhammad's(saww) shariah.



This talks of some of ppl of Book:-
"Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion "




word to word meaning of a part of verse would be:-
مِّنْ among/from
أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ people of the Book
أُمَّةٌ is a group
قَآئِمَةٌ steadfast/unshaken/straight/upright/established(in actual teachings of their prophets)
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sur
01-28-2008, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i wonder what if a person never belonged to any religion (= not "people of the book") but believed in the oneness of God.
Originally Posted by sur
I think, if they were so coz of lack of knowledge, they will be judged on what ever deeds they do, like their behviour to parents, spouse, children, society etc.
& I present this aayah in favor of my POV:-

Q:17:15:-
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).

So no one will be punished for not being a muslim if he/she didn't receive the message. & I think such will be judged on their general actions & intensions.
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