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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-01-2008, 07:13 PM
Kenyans burned to death in church

Eldoret has witnessed some of the worst violence since Sunday's poll
Thirty Kenyans including many children have been burned to death in a church, after seeking refuge from the mounting violence over last week's elections.
A mob attacked and set fire to the church in the western town of Eldoret where hundreds of people were hiding, say police and eyewitness reports.

Dozens more are reported to have been taken to hospital with severe burns.

It comes as EU election monitors said the presidential poll "fell short of international standards".

Children died - around 25 in number - four elderly people. And our men and our people who tried to confront them were injured

Church pastor Jackson Nyanga

In an interim report, chief EU monitor Alexander Graf Lambsdorff said the tallying process "lacked credibility".

Mr Lambsdorff said an independent inquiry was needed to resolve the dispute over the election and called on the Electoral Commission of Kenya to co-operate fully.

The observers say an audit of all the voting returns is vital, and called for results from every polling station to be published in newspapers and on the internet.

Four Kenyan election commissioners have also expressed unease at the result, but the government denied any irregularities.

Fresh killings

About 400 people were said to be taking refuge in the Kenya Assemblies of God church when the attack took place at about 1000 (0700 GMT).

A pastor from the church, Jackson Nyanga told the BBC that many of the people were beaten before the building was set on fire.

I have no evidence that they were rigged. Anyone who has information they were rigged let them subject it through the legal process

Finance Minister Amos Kimunya


In pictures: Poll violence
Defiance under fire
Post-election voters' views

"After torching the church, children died - around 25 in number - four elderly people. And our men and our people who tried to confront them were injured," he said.

Most of the victims were members of the same Kikuyu ethnic group as the newly re-elected President Mwai Kibaki.

Eldoret, in the Rift Valley, has witnessed some of the worst violence since Sunday's controversial poll and has a history of inter-ethnic tension.

Correspondents say that over the past few days hundreds of Kikuyus in the Eldoret area have been taking shelter in churches and around the town's police station.

Eldoret resident Bernard Magamu told the BBC News website that many houses and businesses have been torched, and that roads in and around the town have been closed.

OFFICIAL RESULTS

Mwai Kibaki (pictured): 4,584,721 votes
Raila Odinga: 4,352,993
Kalonzo Musyoka: 879,903

"People are still fearful. It's hard. People are really scared," said Mr Magamu, adding that local hospitals were struggling to cope with the high number of casualties.

The Kenyan Red Cross said that at least 70,000 people have been displaced in the Rift Valley area as a result of the unrest, describing it as "a national disaster".

At least 160 people were killed across Kenya after the election result was announced on Sunday, according to the Red Cross, though the numbers are expected to rise after continued violence on Monday.

Mr Kibaki's challenger, Raila Odinga, backed by the Luo community, said that if fresh killings were taken into account, the total would likely be about 250 or "slightly more".

UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown has again urged Kenya's political leaders to talk, and said: "The violence must be brought to an end."

Doubts expressed

EU observers said the country's election was flawed.

"They were marred by a lack of transparency in the processing and tallying of presidential results, which raises concerns about the accuracy of the final results," the EU team said in a statement.


An Odinga supporter sent the BBC a ballot paper that allegedly shows vote rigging


Enlarge Image


According to the EU, in at least two constituencies - Molo and Kieni - the results that were announced did not reflect the number of votes cast.

EU observers say they heard the voting figures being announced in Molo itself, but when the same results were announced again in Nairobi, the number of votes for Mr Kibaki was significantly higher - by 25,000.

Four of the 22 Kenyan election commissioners have also expressed doubts about the veracity of the figures giving President Kibaki victory by 200,000 votes.

But Finance Minister Amos Kimunya denied his party, the ruling PNU, or the government had been involved in rigging the poll.

He told the BBC: "I have no evidence that they were rigged. Anyone who has any information that they were rigged in one constituency or the other, or overall, let them subject it through the legal process."

Mr Kibaki was declared the winner on Sunday after a controversial three-day counting process.

His challenger, Mr Odinga, said he was robbed of victory by alleged fraud.

source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7166932.stm

the world and polotics... :cry:
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-01-2008, 07:40 PM
video link : http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...t=true&bbcws=2
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Jayda
01-01-2008, 07:50 PM
oh my goodness...
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MartyrX
01-01-2008, 08:12 PM
That is horrible.
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Ali.
01-01-2008, 08:17 PM
Burnt to death?! :scared:

Absolutely horrific!
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-01-2008, 08:23 PM
i dont even have any words for how im feeling about this... when i seen it on the news i was just crying...
the world is such an instable place right now.. this time in previous years it was natural disasters.. there is just no escaping the tragedies that are occuring more and more frequent...
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Ali.
01-01-2008, 08:31 PM
Yah, in my opinion the world is becoming more and more corrupt as we speak. :(
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Grace Seeker
01-02-2008, 08:55 PM
BBC correspondent Karen Allen spoke to the woman who had managed to climb through the window of the burning church with her three children, the youngest, aged three, in her arms.

"As she climbed through the window, the attackers were on the other side - they grabbed her baby and threw it back in. The child died in the inferno," our correspondent told BBC News 24.
What type of people do these sorts of things?! They are demanding justice for an election, and yet act this way toward their fellow citizens and a child. They are nothing more than murders and that might be giving them too much credit.
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chacha_jalebi
01-02-2008, 09:04 PM
there terrorists!!

if you dont like the government then go and debate outside the parliament or somethin burnin down buildings wont acheive anythin!!!
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north_malaysian
01-02-2008, 11:26 PM
It just crazy... definitely, they learnt nothing from the Rwanda Genocide.
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-02-2008, 11:32 PM
update...
Kenyan party to defy protest ban

Kenyan opposition leader Raila Odinga has insisted a banned mass march will go ahead in Nairobi on Thursday despite pleas for post-election unrest to stop.
Refusing to accept defeat to Mwai Kibaki in the 27 December presidential election, Mr Odinga's party boycotted crisis talks with the new president.

The US ambassador to Nairobi has urged the two to sit down and talk.

More than 300 people have been killed and at least 70,000 driven from their homes across Kenya since Sunday.

Both sides have hardened their positions ahead of the planned mass rally, the BBC's Grant Ferrett reports from Nairobi.

And hopes of outside mediation are fading with news that a visit by African Union leader John Kufuor to Nairobi is unlikely to happen, our correspondent adds.

Mr Odinga said the rally would send a peaceful message to supporters opposition.

Vice-President Moody Awori urged him to accept defeat and call off the protest.

"Please do not risk the lives of Kenyans, encouraging a large crowd of people coming in Nairobi on a working day," he said, speaking to reporters.

Riot police blocked opposition supporters trying to break out of slum areas to reach the city centre earlier in the week.

'Genocide'

Supporters of Mr Odinga and President Kibaki have accused each other of genocide.

Mr Kibaki had invited all newly elected members of parliament to an urgent meeting at state house.

But instead of attending, Mr Odinga's Orange Democratic Movement MPs held a news conference to again urge Mr Kibaki to leave office.

"How could we attend?" ODM secretary general Anyang Nyongo was quoted by AFP news agency as saying. "He is not a president but a usurper. It is genocide because police are killing people."

Mr Odinga himself said there could be no "dialogue with a thief", referring to the alleged vote-rigging which returned Mr Kibaki to office.

Speaking on behalf of the government, Lands Minister Kivutha Kibwana accused the ODM of planning, funding and rehearsing "genocide and ethnic cleansing" before the election.

The mutual accusation of genocide is a dangerous escalation of the rhetoric at a time of heightened tension, our correspondent notes.

'Two patriots'

Mr Kufuor, president of Ghana, had been expected to arrive on Thursday but a senior Kenyan government minister said on Wednesday the visit would not take place.


Finance Minister Amos Kimunya told the BBC the visit was not going ahead because there was no need for international mediation in a "Kenyan situation".

The comments are contrary to statements from Mr Kufuor's office that Mr Kibaki has invited him to Kenya.

Michael Ranneberger, the US ambassador, told the BBC World Service that Mr Kibaki and Mr Odinga had to work together to bring peace to Kenya, even if the election result was still being contested.

"This is a time when two of the greatest Kenyan patriots - the president and Raila Odinga - need to step forward and work out a practical way forward in the interests of the Kenyan people," he said.

Samuel Kivuitu, head of Kenya's election commission, told the BBC's Network Africa programme that he could not say for sure if Mr Kibaki had won fairly until he was shown the original records.

"I don't know until I see the records - the original records - which I can't see unless the court authorises it - if we can get authority from law allowing us to check whether these figures are correct, we'll do so," he said.

The full devastation and horror of this week's unrest emerged on Wednesday as journalists visited the charred slums of Nairobi and areas of western Kenya which saw tribal violence.

Fear in the night

The BBC's Karen Allen walked through the smouldering embers of the wooden church on the outskirts of Eldoret, in the Rift Valley, where some 30 people were burnt alive.

The people sheltering there were members of President Kibaki's own community but other groups were also targeted.

Political rivalries have exposed ethnic tensions these past few days and communities that once lived side by side now torn apart, our correspondent says.

Patrick Nongyez of the local Red Cross said he had never seen anything like the church attack in Kenya.

As dusk fell, hundreds of people were preparing to sleep at the main police station for security.

Chemu Mungo, an Eldoret student, told BBC Radio 5 Live that people in the town felt the only safe place to go now was the bush.



source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7168580.stm


video link : http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...news=1&bbcws=1
Viewers may find some of the images in this report distressing
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MartyrX
01-03-2008, 03:56 PM
This makes me realize how good us Americans have it. It's a real tragedy that all of this foolishness is going on.
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Grace Seeker
01-03-2008, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JeffX
This makes me realize how good us Americans have it. It's a real tragedy that all of this foolishness is going on.

Now. It wasn't that long ago, a little less than 100 years, that such violence was typical in the USA as well. I wonder if the idea of the melting pot is what has buffered this sort of behavior in the USA, and might it return at some time in the future? Sorry, that really is an unnecessary tangert from this thread.


Can anyone fill me in on the various tribes that are in conflict. Do they have other issues between each other beside tribalism?
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-03-2008, 04:35 PM
Can anyone fill me in on the various tribes that are in conflict. Do they have other issues between each other beside tribalism?
from seeing the news on tv i believe its not any specific tribe and that all of the tribes are involved.. and i dont think its 'tribal issues' as you put it, more political, i could post more updates but i dont think there is much intrested here on this news.. either way its a terrible tragedy to see such acts of violence..
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MartyrX
01-03-2008, 04:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Now. It wasn't that long ago, a little less than 100 years, that such violence was typical in the USA as well. I wonder if the idea of the melting pot is what has buffered this sort of behavior in the USA, and might it return at some time in the future? Sorry, that really is an unnecessary tangert from this thread.


Can anyone fill me in on the various tribes that are in conflict. Do they have other issues between each other beside tribalism?
Its always possible anything could happen. For that to happen we would have to have a major breakdown of our economic and political structure.
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Grace Seeker
01-03-2008, 04:37 PM
Ayesha, I suggested tribal issues because it seems that the party politics breaks down on tribal lines. Here is a message I just got passed to me by a friend with friends in Kenya who operate an orphange there:
Peace, where have you gone? Just a week ago we were living in peaceful Kenya. Even during the presidential elections held on the 27th December there was peace. Then two days later when the results were announced there was an instant outbreak of violence as many people felt that the election was rigged. It was a very close election - the closest in the history of the nation. Because one party thought they were ahead only to learn that they lost resulted in their rejecting the outcome and called for their supporters to form a rally in protest.

The result was that houses were burnt, shops looted, and people killed because their looks or their name indicated that they were of a different tribe. A church was burnt down with refugees of riot areas taking shelter inside the building. Between 40-50 people were burnt to death.

In spite of all that is taking place in Kenya, God has kept his hand on us and the children in our care as we are in an area with relative calm. Thank the Lord. Please, please pray for Kenya and the safety of innocent people.

In His Hand,
Irvin & Ruth Schwandt
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Belief_is_Power
01-03-2008, 04:40 PM
Hey I'm just glad the media didn't blame it on the muslims. Anyway it is still horrible that those poor folks died that way just for election results.
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-03-2008, 04:44 PM
...

Kenya stokes tribalism debate

World headlines on Kenya appear to say it all.
"Tribal violence spirals in Kenya," screams the front page banner in the International Herald Tribune. "Kenya plunges into interethnic violence," says Le Monde.

But headlines can be misleading.

It is certainly true that the post-electoral violence in Kenya has taken on a tribal character.

Members of the incumbent (and controversially re-installed) President Mwai Kibaki's Kikuyu tribe have been pitted against other smaller tribes.

But that is only part of the story.

A more complete headline might be: "Tribal differences in Kenya, normally accepted peacefully, are exploited by politicians hungry for power who can manipulate poverty-stricken population."

But headlines are not really headlines when they are written like that - and few would criticise the international newspapers for their pithy style.

The ethnic and political violence in Kenya has renewed debate about whether multi-party democracy can be successful in an African context where ethnic loyalties are strong.

If you ask almost any African this question the answer will be qualified: "Yes, democracy can work... if only our leaders allowed it."

It would be naive in the extreme to discount ethnicity in any African election.

The reality of life on the world's poorest continent is that most people live a marginal economic existence and rely enormously, for survival, on those nearest to them.

Rural villagers rely on each other, for example, to bring in the crop, or to share food in difficult times.

Urban dwellers often organise themselves to provide common services like schools because their governments are either too poor or too incompetent to deliver.

In these circumstances the people nearest to you - whom you can trust - are first, family, and second, tribe.

African politicians know this formula very well and many of them exploit it ruthlessly.

"Vote for me," they say, "because I'm from your tribe and you can trust me."

The most dramatic recent illustration of this kind of manipulation was the Rwandan genocide of 1994.


Much of Kenya's tribalism is fuelled by land disputes

Hutus were persuaded by an extremist Hutu power bloc that all Tutsis were their enemies.

There are many other less catastrophic examples.

Politics in Nigeria, for example, is a complex chessboard of ethnicity and religion.

The presidential elections in the Democratic Republic of Congo in 2006 divided the country along ethnic and linguistic lines.

And even in a peaceful, democratic country like Ghana, it is clear that ethnic Ashantis, for example, tend to vote one way while ethnic Ewes tend to vote another.

But at the same time there is usually a further explanation - beyond ethnic group - for the way people vote or the way they react to situations like the current crisis in Kenya.

That explanation is almost always rooted in money - or a lack of it - and the cynical search for power by politicians.

It is no coincidence that the people who usually perpetrate "tribal violence" are unemployed young men.

In Ivory Coast in the late 1990s, for example, the campaign against northerners that was orchestrated by southern politicians - and which eventually led to a full-scale civil war - was spearheaded by youths in the main city, Abidjan, who were paid a daily rate for the job.

'Land grabs'

Equally, in the Kenyan case, it is no coincidence that some of the worst violence has been in the Rift Valley area.

The region has a history of land disputes.

Some of those disputes were originally caused by what was coyly called European "settlement" - which created refugees hungry for land.

More recently, Kenyan politicians have practised more honestly named "land grabs" in parts of the country.

African intellectuals who concede there is a problem of tribalism on the continent - or, rather, a problem of the deliberate manipulation of tribal sentiment by selfish politicians - stress that there is also a rational solution.

Part of the solution, they say, is economic development. If there is growth in the economy there will be more education and less ignorance about fellow citizens of other tribes - and, of course, fewer unemployed thugs for politicians to "buy" for a few cents a day.

Another part of the solution, they say, is genuine democracy with genuinely independent law courts.

People would have no need to rely on their tribe - apart from culturally, should they so wish - if they could rely on all their ballot papers being counted, and could expect honest judgements from courts.

Here, Africa can point to progress in recent decades.

Fifty years ago, almost the entire continent was ruled by foreign colonial powers.

Even just 20 years ago, most African countries were run by dictators or military juntas.

Now, thanks to pro-democracy activists, most African nations have an elected government.

Good start

Many of those governments are far from perfect.

But the advent of at least some democracy - assisted by relatively cheap technology such as FM radio stations and mobile phones which can spread information easily - has encouraged what seems to be an irreversible cultural sea-change in African attitudes to those in power.

Put bluntly, that change means that people can no longer be comprehensively fooled or dictated to.

It is still possible for politicians to cheat at elections - for example through the vehicle of ethnicity.

But the new freedoms, coupled with the new technology, make it almost impossible for politicians to do this without people knowing what is going on.

That is a good start, African intellectuals say, and it may one day mean the end of negative tribalism.

Meanwhile, of course, those headlines will remain at least hal
source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7168551.stm
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-03-2008, 04:50 PM
well whatever the cause im not a political/tribal expert, it just brings great sadness to my heart to see such things.. i did find it odd tho.. that travel operators cancelled all flights there for 2 days.. - do they think this is going to be resolved within 2 days?

All UK holidays to Kenya on hold

Some 7,000 people from the UK are already on holiday in Kenya



All of the UK's major tour operators have suspended holidays to Kenya for the next two days, the Federation of Tour Operators has said.
Operators began cancelling flights following Foreign Office advice that people should only take essential journeys to the East African country.
source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7169587.stm
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ricardo_sousa
01-03-2008, 06:49 PM
there is not "one Africa", there are "many Africas". Kenya is a tribal divided country. When there are problems the different ethnic turn to violence and kill each other. The church was burn in a situation like that.
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AntiKarateKid
01-03-2008, 08:05 PM
The violence over there has really taken a turn for the worse these days...

By the way, not to detract from the topic but, this violence isn't religious right? And yet every time I speak to a atheist, they make it sound like religion is what is behind every bad thing. This conflict doesn't seem to have any though:?
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Muezzin
01-03-2008, 08:12 PM
No religion behind this violence, just politics and nutters.

This event is tragic. Anyone who attacks people in a place of worship, as well as desecrating or destroying the building itself is just... pitiful.
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thirdwatch512
01-03-2008, 08:13 PM
It is really sad to hear this is happening. My condolences to all those who lost a loved one.

:cry:

I am not sure why Christians are being the target of persecution all of a sudden. Hindu extremists in India, anti christians in kenya.. Really sad!
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Cognescenti
01-03-2008, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
No religion behind this violence, just politics and nutters.

This event is tragic. Anyone who attacks people in a place of worship, as well as desecrating or destroying the building itself is just... pitiful.
Agreed. This was not religiously motivated. This is more about ethnic group and political party affiliation (which often track together in Africa). This also has no greater geopolitical implications nor it is a sign of the world descending into chaos. Bad things happen all the time. You just hear about them more now.

I would congratulate those who might have been tempted to blame this on the US or racism or Colonialism and who have restrained their base influences (so far).
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chosen
01-03-2008, 11:25 PM
i pose a question in regards to this...as an american i see that sometimes we are bashed because people around the world seem to think that our goverment has appointed themselves the "world moral police"..if in this case..and if this kind of violence continues..how would you feel about America on its own..or in co operation with the united nations became involved..it seems to be a no win situation..when we become involved we are criticized and if we stand by and do nothing we are criticized...any input????
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wilberhum
01-04-2008, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
i pose a question in regards to this...as an american i see that sometimes we are bashed because people around the world seem to think that our goverment has appointed themselves the "world moral police"..if in this case..and if this kind of violence continues..how would you feel about America on its own..or in co operation with the united nations became involved..it seems to be a no win situation..when we become involved we are criticized and if we stand by and do nothing we are criticized...any input????
Spot on. We are d-a-m-e-d if we do and d-a-m-e-d if we don't.

Even if it is a UN action we are blamed. :skeleton:

You need to remember if you blame some one else for all your problems, you don't have to accept any responsibility.

You see it all the time on this forum. :?
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KelleyD
01-04-2008, 04:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
our goverment has appointed themselves the "world moral police
America has no interest in actually being the world moral police, just in looking as if we are. I wager, UN or no UN, we will not lift a finger to help Kenya. Why? Because there is no "black gold" or anything else of interest to this administration to warrant getting involved. In fact, they have been the last to even comment on the uprising. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon was much, much faster off the mark-- by a matter of days-- than anyone in the Bush administration in exercising the kind of moral leadership that Kenya's citizens and parties so sorely need to hear.

Yesterday, Condi Rice did finally get around to issuing a statement-- jointly with UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband-- that included a call for a cessation of violence. However, that statement came an agonizing five days after Rice had rushed to congratulate former President Mwai Kibaki on his electoral "victory." One has to question why she would do this when election monitors from the EU and US-based organizations were raising enormous doubts about the integrity of the election.

This administration, as well as Rice's moral authority goes into considerable compromised when they do these kinds of things. (Of course, one must realize that the administration for which she works also bears the burden of having grabbed the election of 2000 and 2004 by some very questionable means.)

On a side note, the only one of a political nature who even seemed to care was presidential candidate Barack Obama-- the son of a Kenyan father and an American mother. He did issue his own call for a peaceful resolution of the controversies that divide Kenyans. And wouldn't you know other Democratic candidates hurried to follow suit.

How very dissapointing.....but not unexpected.:-\
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wilberhum
01-04-2008, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Agreed. This was not religiously motivated. This is more about ethnic group and political party affiliation (which often track together in Africa). This also has no greater geopolitical implications nor it is a sign of the world descending into chaos. Bad things happen all the time. You just hear about them more now.

I would congratulate those who might have been tempted to blame this on the US or racism or Colonialism and who have restrained their base influences (so far).
But not all truly restrained themselves.
Hey I'm just glad the media didn't blame it on the muslims.
Not bad, some one not blaming everything on the media.
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Grace Seeker
01-04-2008, 05:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
America has no interest in actually being the world moral police, just in looking as if we are. I wager, UN or no UN, we will not lift a finger to help Kenya. Why? Because there is no "black gold" or anything else of interest to this administration to warrant getting involved. In fact, they have been the last to even comment on the uprising. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon was much, much faster off the mark-- by a matter of days-- than anyone in the Bush administration in exercising the kind of moral leadership that Kenya's citizens and parties so sorely need to hear.

Yesterday, Condi Rice did finally get around to issuing a statement-- jointly with UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband-- that included a call for a cessation of violence. However, that statement came an agonizing five days after Rice had rushed to congratulate former President Mwai Kibaki on his electoral "victory." One has to question why she would do this when election monitors from the EU and US-based organizations were raising enormous doubts about the integrity of the election.

This administration, as well as Rice's moral authority goes into considerable compromised when they do these kinds of things. (Of course, one must realize that the administration for which she works also bears the burden of having grabbed the election of 2000 and 2004 by some very questionable means.)

On a side note, the only one of a political nature who even seemed to care was presidential candidate Barack Obama-- the son of a Kenyan father and an American mother. He did issue his own call for a peaceful resolution of the controversies that divide Kenyans. And wouldn't you know other Democratic candidates hurried to follow suit.

How very dissapointing.....but not unexpected.:-\
Before you go beating up on the USA too much, remember it was the USA that went into Kosovo and Bosnia to protect the people there. They were Muslim, not Christian, and there was not one drop of oil at stake. Our "national interest", if there was one, was simply to prevent ethinc genocide. We should have gone into Rwanda, but didn't. But look what happened when we tried to help in Somalia and the black eye we took for that. And while we were slow to speak out on Dafur, we have spoken out on it, but where is the rest of the world's voice.

The US isn't going to be perfect in these things. But show me a country that is. As said above, we are critiized when we go in, and when we don't go in. We are the big target, big enough that there is always someone to accuse us of doing it wrong. And sometimes we have, and we will again. But if the USA wasn't here, many of those that scream about us would have to invent some other country to be their target, because despite all their screaming, they really are interested only in screaming and pointing the finger at others and not so much in finding solutions to problems themselves.

That doesn't speak as much to Kenya, as some of the undercurrents in your posts. As for Kenya, what can we do right now beyond pray for things to calm down. We can help take a closer look at the election if that's needed, but rioting and murder is not the way to make a case that you've been victimized.
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KelleyD
01-04-2008, 05:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Before you go beating up on the USA too much, remember it was the USA that went into Kosovo and Bosnia to protect the people there. .
I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". I'm not bashing America. But I have been in these places, including the Middle East, three times. I seen it from our side and I've seen it from theirs. I wasn't always Muslim. I used to be Brainwashed.
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The US isn't going to be perfect in these things..
Well, you got that one right. But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. Are there worse operating countries out there? Probably, but we need to get off the "Super Power" and "Leader of the Free World" high horse because there are other countries
that operate much better and we could take some lessons from them instead of acting as if "our way" is the only way.
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Grace Seeker
01-04-2008, 06:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". I'm not bashing America. But I have been in these places, including the Middle East, three times. I seen it from our side and I've seen it from theirs. I wasn't always Muslim. I used to be Brainwashed.


Well, you got that one right. But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. Are there worse operating countries out there? Probably, but we need to get off the "Super Power" and "Leader of the Free World" high horse because there are other countries
that operate much better and we could take some lessons from them instead of acting as if "our way" is the only way.

Oh, I agree we do way too much "our way is the only way" sort of stuff. Look at how we would do anything to get rid of democratically elected communist and socialist run governments around the world when Reagan was president. But on your first point, my understanding was that we actually still do have some troops in Kosovo.

So, do you have any suggestions on what we could actually do in Kenya right now that would make it better, rather than worse?
Reply

KelleyD
01-04-2008, 09:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So, do you have any suggestions on what we could actually do in Kenya right now that would make it better, rather than worse?
Pray hard for peace.:unhappy:
Reply

ricardo_sousa
01-04-2008, 09:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
So, do you have any suggestions on what we could actually do in Kenya right now that would make it better, rather than worse?
Promote a "new borders" for Africa. Like in the old Yugoslavia in Europe. The borders of Africa countries were made by the European empires and that don´t reflect the actual divisions of the different tribes and ethnic groups. Kenya is an explosive pot of different tribes.
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Grace Seeker
01-04-2008, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
Promote a "new borders" for Africa. Like in the old Yugoslavia in Europe. The borders of Africa countries were made by the European empires and that don´t reflect the actual divisions of the different tribes and ethnic groups. Kenya is an explosive pot of different tribes.
I understand the concept, but I think it is more than a little naive to think that will "fix" things.
Reply

Jayda
01-04-2008, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". I'm not bashing America. But I have been in these places, including the Middle East, three times. I seen it from our side and I've seen it from theirs. I wasn't always Muslim. I used to be Brainwashed.


Well, you got that one right. But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. Are there worse operating countries out there? Probably, but we need to get off the "Super Power" and "Leader of the Free World" high horse because there are other countries
that operate much better and we could take some lessons from them instead of acting as if "our way" is the only way.

hola KelleyD,

out of curiosity do you come from a military family? i ask because my father was in the army as a lt colonel and (despite the fact i had no desire to do so) i was told from a very young age i was forbidden to join the army and only men were supposed to be in the military...

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

ricardo_sousa
01-04-2008, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I understand the concept, but I think it is more than a little naive to think that will "fix" things.
of course that will not fix the problems, but will be a start. Just like we are seeing today in the old Yugoslavia countries in Europe.

It is impossible to have peace in a country where you have groups of people that don´t respect each other and are ready to kill innocent people. it is best to first "separate" and then, as nations, trying to build Unions, like the European Union.
Reply

Cognescenti
01-04-2008, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
I can't forget....because I was one of the ones who was deployed to Bosnia. I was sickened by what I seen, but more importantly, that the US would have let it go on so long before stepping in and then pulling us out so quickly. If there were oil involved, you can bet we would have been over there in less than 24 hours and still be over there attempting to implement our policies--all in the name of "democracy". .
Apparently, when you were "deployed" there you failed to acquire an understanding about centuries-old grievances or more recent bad feelings about who, among the locals, sided with the Nazis in WWII (hint: it wasn't the Serbs). You also, apparently, failed to discover there was an ineffectual UN and EU effort (at their own insistnece) before the US finally stepped in. Do tell us though when and what unit you were with and how many officers you fragged.

.
I'm not bashing America. .
No...not at all. In fact, I mistook you for a docent at the Ronald Reagan Library.


.
I used to be Brainwashed. .
Are you sure you have the verb tense correct?


.
But as Americans, we aren't looking for "perfect", but we also aren't looking to live in a self-serving, gluttonous, fascist state run by a sociopathic meglomaniac. .
...."....this way please to the America the Beautiful diorama. On your right please note the dark greatcoat. This is the very garment Mr. Reagan wore during his famous "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" speech. On your left......"
Reply

- Qatada -
01-04-2008, 06:30 PM
Guys, debate respectfully ayt? :)




Peace.
Reply

KelleyD
01-06-2008, 10:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola KelleyD,

out of curiosity do you come from a military family? i ask because my father was in the army as a lt colonel and (despite the fact i had no desire to do so) i was told from a very young age i was forbidden to join the army and only men were supposed to be in the military...

que Dios te bendiga
Yes. I come from a long line of military families and I was military for many years. Unlike you, I was told from a very early age that my sister and I would be going in. Ironic isn't it, how cultures can be so different.
Reply

☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
01-06-2008, 10:21 AM
Update...

Kenya food effort gets under way

A convoy of food trucks has left the Kenyan port of Mombasa, in a new effort to tackle a humanitarian crisis triggered by disputed elections.

The trucks, carrying 666 tonnes of food and vegetable oil, are bound for Nairobi and Eldoret, where people displaced by the violence are gathered.

No food has moved in Kenya since unrest broke out after elections last month which the opposition says were rigged.

The opposition rejected a subsequent offer of a national unity government.

The violence, much of it blamed on ethnic tensions, has killed 350 people and shocked a nation previously seen as one of the most stable in Africa.

The first group of 20 food trucks are carrying enough supplies to feed 35,000 people for a month.

The UN says 250,000 people have been made homeless by the violence. Many have been sleeping in the open at public parks, police stations, public parks or churches.

They have few belongings and little or no money.

The convoy also offers hope to neighbouring countries, for which Mombasa is also a key port and distribution hub.

Health fears

British charity Merlin has warned of a looming health crisis in Kenya.

Country director Wubeshet Woldermariam said food and water supplies were "running dangerously low".

"If peace isn't restored within the next few days, disease outbreaks and severe dehydration are very real threats."

Latest indications are that violence is waning and life starting to return to normal.

But across Kenya on Sunday, church services have been held calling for peace.

"Our leaders have failed us. They have brought this catastrophe upon us. So now we are turning to the Almighty to save Kenya," worshipper Jane Riungu told the Reuters news agency as she took her children to church in Nairobi.

On the political front, the US's top Africa diplomat, Jendayi Frazer - who saw President Mwai Kibaki and the opposition leader Raila Odinga on Saturday - is still in Nairobi, where she was expected to hold more talks.

The African Union chairman, President John Kufuor of Ghana, is also expected to visit Nairobi.

Mr Kibaki has said he is willing to form a government of national unity to ease the crisis.

Opposition leader Raila Odinga says he is willing to negotiate, but says Mr Kibaki should step down.

Kenyan politics has been dogged by ethnic tensions since independence in 1963.

Mr Kibaki depends for support on the largest ethnic group, the Kikuyus, while the western Luo and Kalenjin groups - who seek greater autonomy - back Mr Odinga.

KENYA'S ETHNIC GROUPS
Population 34.5m, comprising more than 40 ethnic groups
Kikuyu are the largest tribe, mostly concentrated around Nairobi
Most of Eastern/ North-eastern regions sparsely populated with ethnic Somalis
Main ethnic groups are:
Kikuyu: 22%
Luhya: 14%
Luo: 13%
Kalenjin: 12%
Kamba: 11%
Kisii: 6%
Meru: 6%
Other African: 15%

Source : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7173565.stm
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chacha_jalebi
01-06-2008, 02:49 PM
3 days rule :threadclo

muhahahahaaaaa haa haaa :shade:
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