From What Age Are You Allowed To Marry In Islam?

[mestiza]

^Says all. Always wondered.

[akulion]

Best to my knowledge from the age of puberty.
Evidence from the Marriage of Aisha (ra)

Allah Knows best.

[Mikayeel]

i am 18 at the moment and i cant wait to get married!, its the best thing a young man/women, can do!, i am just waiting to start uni (very soon), and then its looking for my future wife:P, most people excuse to not get married at a young age is the issue with money and not willing to take responsibilities!?, but that does not make alot of sense to me

[Mikayeel]

oeps sorry!, i misunderstood the question!! looool, i thought what age do you want to get married haha, yea its after you hit puberty, then its strongly recommended to get married,

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[mestiza]

Thankyou For Your Replies :).

[rph105]

Thankyou For Your Replies :).

its ok mestiza, is there a reason your asking, who's the lucky man? :D

[glo]

But the age of puberty is not in agreement with the legal age in many Western countries (18 here in the UK, or 16 with parental consent).

Do Muslims marry earlier than that, even if they live in the UK?
Certainly consumating the marriage at such age would equate to underage sex, which is illegal and punishable with imprisonment!

[rph105]

But the age of puberty is not in agreement with the legal age in many Western countries (18 here in the UK, or 16 with parental consent).

Do Muslims marry earlier than that, even if they live in the UK?
Certainly consumating the marriage at such age would equate to underage sex, which is illegal and punishable with imprisonment!

ahh illegal to who? the law of man, or the law of god?

[mestiza]

But the age of puberty is not in agreement with the legal age in many Western countries (18 here in the UK, or 16 with parental consent).

Do Muslims marry earlier than that, even if they live in the UK?
Certainly consumating the marriage at such age would equate to underage sex, which is illegal and punishable with imprisonment!

Erm regarding muslims marrying earlier than 16/18yrs of age in the UK I'm not sure of. However I do know that in other countries, some people get married in their early teens say 13/14yrs - and that is seen as norm.

'Legal' age varies between countries, at the end of the day the UK law is a man made law, and doesn't apply to the whole world.... can't put into words the rest of my thoughts for some strange reason...

[mestiza]

PS: Rph105 I'm just curious lol

[glo]

ahh illegal to who? the law of man, or the law of god?

Well, that's really why I am asking.

Clearly, the Islamic law is at odds with the British law here.
That's why I am interested to hear what Muslims in Britain do.
Marry outside the legal age, or comply with the secular law?
(After all, waiting until 16 does not break Islamic law ...)

Do you know the answer to my question?

Peace

[glo]

Erm regarding muslims marrying earlier than 16/18yrs of age in the UK I'm not sure of. However I do know that in other countries, some people get married in their early teens say 13/14yrs - and that is seen as norm.

I understand that, mestiza.
I am specifically interested in the age Muslim in Britain choose to get married at.
It would be interesting to see some statistics, don't you think?

(Incidentally, my daughter is 13, and will be 14 soon.
If she wanted to get married, I would tell her something else!! No way does she have the maturity (physicall or mentally) - but that's just me speaking as a mother, and it's irrelevant to this post, really. :X)

Peace

[Mikayeel]

Well, that's really why I am asking.

Clearly, the Islamic law is at odds with the British law here.
That's why I am interested to hear what Muslims in Britain do.
Marry outside the legal age, or comply with the secular law?
(After all, waiting until 16 does not break Islamic law ...)

Do you know the answer to my question?

Peace

you could marry under islamic rules, without informing the british law. after hitting puberty tho! so its normal for 2 people even in britian to get married at an age of as low as 16, i havent see alot of 15 or lower, but it probally happens, non muslim people usually refer to it as boyfriend-girlfriend, we refer to it as marriage i see no difference except one stops the spread of corruption. hopes this answers ur question, and allah knows best!. forgive me for any spelling mistake i type careless and fast:P

[جوري]

Dear glo

raising the 'age of consent' even by western standards only occured last century
have a look here
http://womhist.alexanderstreet.com/teacher/aoc.htm

American reformers were shocked to discover that the laws of most states set the age of consent at the age of ten or twelve, and in one state, Delaware, the age of consent was only seven. Women reformers and advocates of social purity initiated a campaign in 1885 to petition legislators to raise the legal age of consent to at least sixteen, although their ultimate goal was to raise the age to eighteen. The campaign was eventually quite successful; by 1920, almost all states had raised the age of consent to sixteen or eighteen.

I say get married when you are good and ready..
I have seen them pass birth control pills to 11 year olds, and I have seen pregnant 12 year olds.. think if they can have sex, frankly they should be married..

my two cents

cheers

[mestiza]

Well, that's really why I am asking.

Clearly, the Islamic law is at odds with the British law here.
That's why I am interested to hear what Muslims in Britain do.
Marry outside the legal age, or comply with the secular law?
(After all, waiting until 16 does not break Islamic law ...)

Do you know the answer to my question?

Peace

It isn't an Islamic law to marry off teens once they hit puberty, I'm not sure if it's advised however, by Islamic scholars. I think it's common for some muslims in the UK to marry 'young' i.e. 18 onwards, some for reasons that the only way to have a 'legal'/pure relationship (no such thing as a girlfriend/boyfriend relationship in Islam) is through marriage. I know a few people who have married young (17/18/19) and are muslims.

[جوري]

here is another
School Approves Birth Control Pills for 11- to 13-Year-Olds
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.a...20071018c.html


Again... I have no set age in mind for how old people should be when they get married, my sis got married in her thirties, I don't think it is up to anyone to decide what age is appropriate really.. but I do have a problem with the hypocrisy that disables you from getting married at puberty but allows you to put foreign hormons to halt unwanted pregnancies... It is a bit odd to me frankly...

cheers

[mestiza]

I understand that, mestiza.
I am specifically interested in the age Muslim in Britain choose to get married at.
It would be interesting to see some statistics, don't you think?

(Incidentally, my daughter is 13, and will be 14 soon.
If she wanted to get married, I would tell her something else!! No way does she have the maturity (physicall or mentally) - but that's just me speaking as a mother, and it's irrelevant to this post, really. :X)

Peace

I would like to as well.

Personally likewise, if I had a daughter/son in their early teens, I would tell her/him to sit down and do their homework if they even considered marriage at that age. :enough!:

[Woodrow]

There is not actual year age. It is all dependent upon physical development. The MINIMUM age for marriage is the onset of puberty. a person is not required to get married then. that is just the minimum age for marriage. If that age happens to occur at an age older than the state minimum requirement they would have to wait until older than the state age to marry. If it occurs before the State minimum age, they must follow the state law.

[snakelegs]

isn't a type of marriage known as "misyar" sometimes done, when the kids are both young and still living at home and unable to set up their own household?

[Woodrow]

isn't a type of marriage known as "misyar" sometimes done, when the kids are both young and still living at home and unable to set up their own household?

That is done at times.If done properly it is very beneficial. For example it can be the means young people can marry and not jeopardize their education. Far better they marry as students living with parents and build both a marriage and an education, then to try to handle an education and the problems associated with hiding an intimate relationship

[Amadeus85]

In Poland you must be over 18 to be allowed to get married.Sexual contacts at age lower than 16 are forbidden by law. And I think that it is good law.

[snakelegs]

i think here a lot of kids start much earlier than 16. i don't think there is any law against it, providing that both are underage.

[syilla]

marriage is not allowed...but lots of 16 age kids have sex :hmm:

In Malaysia you have to be 16 over to get married. Or you'll be charged for having sex with minor.

[Ninth_Scribe]

I have seen them pass birth control pills to 11 year olds, and I have seen pregnant 12 year olds.. think if they can have sex, frankly they should be married..

Exactly! They hand out birth control pills here - without the consent of her parents, but if she gets pregnant, they usually go after the family. What's wrong with that picture?

The Ninth Scribe

[glo]

I say get married when you are good and ready..
I have seen them pass birth control pills to 11 year olds, and I have seen pregnant 12 year olds.. think if they can have sex, frankly they should be married..

Just to clarify ... I would be very concerned if my 13-year-old daughter was sexually active, full stop - inside of marriage or out of.

[Nájlá]

i think the best age to get married is between 18 and over

[جوري]

Just to clarify ... I would be very concerned if my 13-year-old daughter was sexually active, full stop - inside of marriage or out of.

I am not disagreeing with that.. but your life style wouldn't for instance reconcile with some parts of Africa where the life expectancy is 44 yrs of ages and there is a very high mortality rate in infants. I merely bring this to the table, because it has become western standard of some to mock the values and life style of others. In fact, this wasn't only the norm, but here in the west 'raising the age's of consent was as recent as last century and as you can see, 7 was the age of consent in some states like Delaware. And there will be people who will still be pregnant at 13 with or without marriage.. what can I say-- different strokes for different folks, in different centuries and in different countries.. marrying young isn't so outlandish, and neither is marrying old.

peace!

[Qingu]

I am not disagreeing with that.. but your life style wouldn't for instance reconcile with some parts of Africa where the life expectancy is 44 yrs of ages and there is a very high mortality rate in infants. I merely bring this to the table, because it has become western standard of some to mock the values and life style of others. In fact, this wasn't only the norm, but here in the west 'raising the age's of consent was as recent as last century and as you can see, 7 was the age of consent in some states like Delaware. And there will be people who will still be pregnant at 13 with or without marriage.. what can I say-- different strokes for different folks, in different centuries and in different countries.. marrying young isn't so outlandish, and neither is marrying old.

peace!

I think criticism of such cultural norms is well-founded, however. 9-year old girls may be able to get pregnant and may physically be able to have sex, but it is doubtful that any 9 year old person is rationally capable of dealing with marraige, and the choices responsibilities it entails.

Most parents, for example, don't let their 9-year olds drive cars, even if they're tall enough and could pass a driver's test. We don't let 9-year-olds make decisions about their education, or the food they eat, or the movies they watch, or (in most cases) their religion.

Also, teenagers and younger children are much easier to manipulate than adults. This is why most child sexual abuse happens—not through violence, or because kids are physically overpowered, but because they are emotionally manipulated into doing something they wouldn't ordinarily do with an adult.

[جوري]

I think criticism of such cultural norms is well-founded, however. 9-year old girls may be able to get pregnant and may physically be able to have sex, but it is doubtful that any 9 year old person is rationally capable of dealing with marraige, and the choices responsibilities it entails.

Times have changed from 1885-1920, the cultures that you'd need to criticize in this instance would be western ones as well, as cited 'age of consent' in the state of Delaware was 7 not even 9, i.e pre-menarche

Most parents, for example, don't let their 9-year olds drive cars, even if they're tall enough and could pass a driver's test. We don't let 9-year-olds make decisions about their education, or the food they eat, or the movies they watch, or (in most cases) their religion.

I don't think 'driving' is/was an issue at that point, as you have just stated in your other thread, the advances of our time might appear to those 400 years ago as sorcery.. times have changed and expectations have changed, but there are many who still live with tribal customs, just turn on the 'travel chanel' on your TV sometimes, you'd be surprised how many still exist. I think they'd probably laugh at your suggestion of education and cars, when they barely have adequate clothes.

Also, teenagers and younger children are much easier to manipulate than adults. This is why most child sexual abuse happens—not through violence, or because kids are physically overpowered, but because they are emotionally manipulated into doing something they wouldn't ordinarily do with an adult.

That is very possible and probable... but still happens in the civilized west.. here is a case of a 16 year old girl marrying her 40 year old teacher
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,285794,00.html

as well as tons of other cases, not making this an exclusive event or even just limited under privileged regions..


cheers

[syilla]

lol...my grandmother married at the age of 9...

she died at the age of 72.

But my grandfather died at the 45.

She is all alone...after my grandfather died...but she missed him so much. They did have a very happy marriage.


lol...sorry for sharing my life experience :X. Just thinking about her...miss her so much. Al-fatihah .

[جوري]

lol...my grandmother married at the age of 9...

she died at the age of 72.

But my grandfather died at the 45.

She is all alone...after my grandfather died...but she missed him so much. They did have a very happy marriage.


lol...sorry for sharing my life experience :X. Just thinking about her...miss her so much. Al-fatihah .

Allah yer7mha sis, never regret sharing yourself, I find it very human and endearing.. I too lost my grandmother, who was married at 14, her husband died when she was 36.. I never had a chance to see my grandad, either grandads actually.. but she was a hell of a lady, and truly ahead of her times in so many ways..
Allah ye7am Amwat ilmoslmeen wa yelhmna as'sabr wa silwan

:w:

[NoName55]

you could marry under islamic rules, without informing the british law. after hitting puberty tho! so its normal for 2 people even in britian to get married at an age of as low as 16, i havent see alot of 15 or lower, but it probally happens, non muslim people usually refer to it as boyfriend-girlfriend, we refer to it as marriage i see no difference except one stops the spread of corruption. hopes this answers ur question, and allah knows best!. forgive me for any spelling mistake i type careless and fast:P

wrong, incorrect!

marriages without registration can have and have had very tragic consequences.

Those who do not wish to follow the rules laid down by British Law makers are free to emigrate to someplace else.

A marriage must be registered to be valid or it is no different than an illicit affair

[Mikayeel]

wrong, incorrect!

marriages without registration can have and have had very tragic consequences.

Those who do not wish to follow the rules laid down by British Law makers are free to emigrate to someplace else.

A marriage must be registered to be valid or it is no different than an illicit affair

oke, explain to me a young couple is desperate to get married, but cant do so under the british law, but they are allowed under ISLAMIC LAW, so they get married in a mosque!, what is your advice to them?, and at an later age they can register them self married under the british law.

[syilla]

:salamext:

Did anyone read the news about the britney spears sister...i don't really know her name.

That she wants to get married to her boyfriend because she is pregnant. Btw she is only 16.

[NoName55]

oke, explain to me a young couple is desperate to get married, but cant do so under the british law, but they are allowed under ISLAMIC LAW, so they get married in a mosque!, what is your advice to them?, and at an later age they can register them self married under the british law.

are they going to lie to the registrar at a later date? now lying is Islamic too?

[Malaikah]

In Poland you must be over 18 to be allowed to get married.Sexual contacts at age lower than 16 are forbidden by law. And I think that it is good law.

Wow! Seriously? In Australia it is 10 years old!:skeleton:

A marriage must be registered to be valid or it is no different than an illicit affair

It would be an illicit affair by British law not Islamic law so it makes no difference, and they aren't breaking the law unless they are below the consent age when they got Islamically married.

[NoName55]

Wow! Seriously? Is Australia it is 10 years old!:skeleton:


.

wrong as usual! I guess if ain't found at Islamqa some people are lost and are reduced to making it all up http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

Australia ACT ..................16
Australia NSW & Norfolk Is. 16
Australia NT ....................16
Australia Queensland1 .......16/18
Australia SA ....................17
Australia Tasmania ...........17
Australia Victoria ..............16
Australia WA ....................16

It would be an illicit affair by British law not Islamic law so it makes no difference, and they aren't breaking the law unless they are below the consent age when they got Islamically married

wrong and confusing, again

[genki]

age of puberty is the answer.

But im sure many of us agree that age of puberty doesnt necessarily mean YOU SHOULD marry. A boy might hit puberty at age say 12 but inside and out hes still a boy and has a mindset of a child. Id say wait a little longer.

On that note though age of marriage varies throughout the world. In russia I think its 14 with consent?

Personally I would never marry a 14 or someone in their teens because most likely theyd be selfish and childish. Maybe upper late teens18-19 if they are adult enough and responsible and mature.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:

Personally I would never marry a 14 or someone in their teens because most likely theyd be selfish and childish. Maybe upper late teens18-19 if they are adult enough and responsible and mature.

I think that would depend on how they grew up/'level' of maturity . some teenages are really mature for their age.
:sl:

[Malaikah]

wrong as usual! I guess if aint at Islamqa some peeps are lost and reduced to making it all up

No, you are wrong. Did you ever even consider the possiblilty that you might be wrong before you insulted me so pathetically?

Anyone from the age in of 10 to 15 years is permitted with have sex as long as their partner is no more than two years older than them. (This does vary in some states)

[genki]

:sl:


I think that would depend on how they grew up/'level' of maturity . some teenages are really mature for their age.
:sl:

Agreed! I was very mature so upbringing parents culture society habits responsibilities all has to do with it.

[Qingu]

Times have changed from 1885-1920, the cultures that you'd need to criticize in this instance would be western ones as well, as cited 'age of consent' in the state of Delaware was 7 not even 9, i.e pre-menarche

Not sure what your point is—do you think I support such a low age of consent? I'm certainly glad they raised it.

I don't think 'driving' is/was an issue at that point, as you have just stated in your other thread, the advances of our time might appear to those 400 years ago as sorcery.. times have changed and expectations have changed, but there are many who still live with tribal customs, just turn on the 'travel chanel' on your TV sometimes, you'd be surprised how many still exist. I think they'd probably laugh at your suggestion of education and cars, when they barely have adequate clothes.

I'm quite aware of the situation in less-developed countries. Does their lack of wealth and technology justify their cultural norms?

What do you think about child soldiers in Africa?

That is very possible and probable... but still happens in the civilized west.. here is a case of a 16 year old girl marrying her 40 year old teacher
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,285794,00.html

Again, I'm not sure what your point is. I certainly don't support a 40 year old marrying a 16 year old and I'm sure the majority of Westerners do not either, for the reasons I stated.

[S_87]

But the age of puberty is not in agreement with the legal age in many Western countries (18 here in the UK, or 16 with parental consent).

Do Muslims marry earlier than that, even if they live in the UK?
Certainly consumating the marriage at such age would equate to underage sex, which is illegal and punishable with imprisonment!

Hi glo

i personally dont know of any muslim in the uk married and living in the UK underage :?
having said that though, sex underage is something that not seriously taken.theres loads of teenage mothers who didnt even know the fathers of their children properly, nor have their support.and the fathers arent in jail either lol

in the west its not the norm, nor areeither males or females ready to get married at a young age. but in other countries its perfectly normal

[Woodrow]

My second wife was forced to marry a 40+ year old neighbor when she was 12 years old. All legal even though she objected. This was in 1949 in Roxboro, North Carolina, USA

[glo]

having said that though, sex underage is something that not seriously taken.theres loads of teenage mothers who didnt even know the fathers of their children properly, nor have their support.and the fathers arent in jail either lol

Teenage pregnancy in the UK is one of the highest in Europe - and not reducing by far enough!
It's a real worry, I agree! :(

I am not sure what the answer is. It is more complex that just advocating celibacy, of that I am sure. Kids need much support and advice in the matter of sexuality, and they do need to know how to protect themselves should things 'get out of hand'.
But the whole premarital sex thing is a different topic really, and needs its own thread elsewhere ...

My second wife was forced to marry a 40+ year old neighbor when she was 12 years old. All legal even though she objected. This was in 1949 in Roxboro, North Carolina, USA

That's horrific, Woodrow!! :cry:
How long was she married to him?

Peace

[Woodrow]

Teenage pregnancy in the UK is one of the highest in Europe - and not reducing by far enough!
It's a real worry, I agree! :(

I am not sure what the answer is. It is more complex that just advocating celibacy, of that I am sure. Kids need much support and advice in the matter of sexuality, and they do need to know how to protect themselves should things 'get out of hand'.
But the whole premarital sex thing is a different topic really, and needs its own thread elsewhere ...


That's horrific, Woodrow!! :cry:
How long was she married to him?

Peace

He abandoned her when she was 15 and had 2 children. She finally was able to get a divorce and remarried at 17. But, she had lost custody of her 2 children as she could not take care of them. Her second Husband was a lot better, but he got killed in Korea. She was 47 when I married her, we were married just short of 17 years

[جوري]

Not sure what your point is—do you think I support such a low age of consent? I'm certainly glad they raised it.

The point was quite simply, you'd stated it is good to rebuke and criticize such countries (not in such civil terms) and I stated the low age of consent was the case in the civilized west and not in the so distant past! and still continues to be so 'regardles of the institution of marriage)!

I'm quite aware of the situation in less-developed countries. Does their lack of wealth and technology justify their cultural norms?

it depends on the variable in the formula and how it works for them personally. If I were raised in a place where most children died before the age of five, and the life expectancy was 44, I'd probably not wait until the tender age of 27 to get hitched!

What do you think about child soldiers in Africa?

What does this have to do with marriage? You want to start another topic, I suggest you dedicate a thread to it and clean up your approach a bit if you want a civil exchange back!

Again, I'm not sure what your point is. I certainly don't support a 40 year old marrying a 16 year old and I'm sure the majority of Westerners do not either, for the reasons I stated.

The point is, it really doesn't matter what you or other westerners, or the neighbors or her parents think, she went ahead and did it anyway.

This whole thread isn't about (Qingu''s desires) and definition of 'progress' it is about what happens anyway including in the 'civilized west'!


cheers

[NoName55]

What do you think about child soldiers in Africa?

What does this have to do with marriage? You want to start another topic, I suggest you dedicate a thread to it and clean up your approach a bit if you want a civil exchange back!

nothing whatsoever, but everything to do with being disruptive and part of an obvious trend to put us down.

wa salam alaikum

[glo]

He abandoned her when she was 15 and had 2 children. She finally was able to get a divorce and remarried at 17. But, she had lost custody of her 2 children as she could not take care of them. Her second Husband was a lot better, but he got killed in Korea. She was 47 when I married her, we were married just short of 17 years

Peace, Woodrow

I know your wife has passed away.
She must have been quite woman, having had to deal with so much in her life!
Did she have any more children with her second husband?

My warmest regards

[Mikayeel]

are they going to lie to the registrar at a later date? now lying is Islamic too?

i dnt seem to understand??, why lie in the first place, they dnt have to know it at all, how many times do we see normal teenagers aged 16 above, having a relationship!, are they married ? no, instead of having that illegal relationship u just make it legal! thats all! and maybe at an later age u could register ur self married under the british law

[Malaikah]

i dnt seem to understand??, why lie in the first place, they dnt have to know it at all, how many times do we see normal teenagers aged 16 above, having a relationship!, are they married ? no, instead of having that illegal relationship u just make it legal! thats all! and maybe at an later age u could register ur self married under the british law

Just to clarify- the relationship isn't illegal, is it?

[Amadeus85]

i dnt seem to understand??, why lie in the first place, they dnt have to know it at all, how many times do we see normal teenagers aged 16 above, having a relationship!, are they married ? no, instead of having that illegal relationship u just make it legal! thats all! and maybe at an later age u could register ur self married under the british law

Only becauses some people commit bad things it doesnt mean that it should be allowed by law.For example,some people steal so should we legalize stealing?

[Mikayeel]

there seem to be a misunderstanding i am not saying breaking the law IN ANY WAY!, all i am saying is to get married under islamic ruleing!, thats all.....(besides i didnt make that up, u can marry after u become teenager),

[Qingu]

there seem to be a misunderstanding i am not saying breaking the law IN ANY WAY!, all i am saying is to get married under islamic ruleing!, thats all.....(besides i didnt make that up, u can marry after u become teenager),

Do you believe it would be okay for a 50-year old man to get married "Islamically" to a 12-year old girl and then marry under British law at a later date, when she is the legal age?

[- Qatada -]

Do you believe it would be okay for a 50-year old man to get married "Islamically" to a 12-year old girl and then marry under British law at a later date, when she is the legal age?

We've had people who claim that it's perfectly okay for a male to marry a male! Heck, we've even had some people claiming that it's moral for incest to occur so long as they don't produce offspring!


Question those rules of morality which are being promoted all over the world first

[Qingu]

We've had people who claim that it's perfectly okay for a male to marry a male! Heck, we've even had some people claiming that it's moral for incest to occur so long as they don't produce offspring!

Question those rules of morality which are being promoted all over the world first

Very well: I'm perfectly okay with a male marrying a male, and I would continue to ban incest until we had some meaningful way to ensure no children were born from the sex. In general, I have no problems with behavior between consenting adults, as long as it does not infringe upon others' rights or comforts.

Now how about you answer my question? :)

[Godless Heathen]

Break the secular law. It will teach them a lesson not be so liberal. It's their own fault.

[- Qatada -]

Now how about you answer my question? :)

Well then, if your argument is that it will not harm anyone and that the couple are capable for marriage, and that both are willing - then sure, they have the right to get married.

If it is against the law for them to get married at an early age, then it is better for them to get married when the law permits. :)


That's my answer.




Regards.

[Qingu]

Well then, if your argument is that it will not harm anyone and that the couple are capable for marriage, and that both are willing - then sure, they have the right to get married.

My argument specifically said "between consenting adults." I do not consider a 12-year old girl an adult capable of consent—do you?

If it is against the law for them to get married at an early age, then it is better for them to get married when the law permits. :)

Just to be clear: you would be against Islamic marraige if it breaks secular laws? (Such as a 50 year old man marrying a 12 year old girl?)

[- Qatada -]

My argument specifically said "between consenting adults." I do not consider a 12-year old girl an adult capable of consent—do you?

Well, i do. :) If she is mentally, emotionally, and physically fit for marriage - then she is fit for consent. Each individual differs however. So if someone is not fit for marriage at that age, then yeah - i don't agree.

Just to be clear: you would be against Islamic marraige if it breaks secular laws? (Such as a 50 year old man marrying a 12 year old girl?)

We should obey the laws of the land, so long as it doesn't lead to disobedience of God. :) Marriage age is influenced by culture. So in the UK, it can be at 16 - so the muslims there can follow that culture.

[Qingu]

Well, i do. :) If she is mentally, emotionally, and physically fit for marriage - then she is fit for consent. Each individual differs however. So if someone is not fit for marriage at that age, then yeah - i don't agree.

Do you also believe 12 year olds should be able to vote, drive cars, join the army, and other activities commonly relegated to "adults only"?

Or is the maturity level required for sexual consent significantly lower than the maturity level requirement for these other activities?

We should obey the laws of the land, so long as it doesn't lead to disobedience of God. :) Marriage age is influenced by culture. So in the UK, it can be at 16 - so the muslims there can follow that culture.

Ah, okay, that makes sense to me. I think some other posters in this thread seem to disagree, though.

[Godless Heathen]

Well, i do. :) If she is mentally, emotionally, and physically fit for marriage - then she is fit for consent. Each individual differs however. So if someone is not fit for marriage at that age, then yeah - i don't agree.


We should obey the laws of the land, so long as it doesn't lead to disobedience of God. :) Marriage age is influenced by culture. So in the UK, it can be at 16 - so the muslims there can follow that culture.

What's the point of following secular laws?

[- Qatada -]

Do you also believe 12 year olds should be able to vote, drive cars, join the army, and other activities commonly relegated to "adults only"?

Or is the maturity level required for sexual consent significantly lower than the maturity level requirement for these other activities?

Islamically speaking, an adult is someone who has reached adolescence. However, each person differs. A girls first period, and a boys first wet dream signifies their adulthood. However, people mature at different rates mentally, aswell as emotionally etc. so these are also taken into consideration.

Ah, okay, that makes sense to me. I think some other posters in this thread seem to disagree, though.

We are allowed to follow our culture, so long as the cultural practises do not oppose Islamic teachings. If in one culture it is the norms to get married at 25, and in another at 16. Then you can easily follow your culture since there is nothing wrong with getting married at either of those ages etc.

[Qingu]

Islamically speaking, an adult is someone who has reached adolescence. However, each person differs. A girls first period, and a boys first wet dream signifies their adulthood. However, people mature at different rates mentally, aswell as emotionally etc. so these are also taken into consideration.

Sorry to keep questioning you, I hope I don't come off as argumentative, but I'm genuinely curious: do you think kids who have periods/wet dreams should be considered "adults" in all respects? Voting, driving, going to war, choosing whether or not to stay in school, etc? Or just marriage?

I agree that individuals mature at different rates, but I must say I'd be pretty uncomfortable allowing any 12 year old the right to vote, drive, or fire a machine gun at enemy soldiers. That would have to be one bright and emotionally stable 12 year old. :)

[- Qatada -]

Sorry to keep questioning you, I hope I don't come off as argumentative, but I'm genuinely curious: do you think kids who have periods/wet dreams should be considered "adults" in all respects? Voting, driving, going to war, choosing whether or not to stay in school, etc? Or just marriage?

I agree that individuals mature at different rates, but I must say I'd be pretty uncomfortable allowing any 12 year old the right to vote, drive, or fire a machine gun at enemy soldiers. That would have to be one bright and emotionally stable 12 year old. :)

Again, that may be due to your cultural upbringing. I can assure you that in many other cultures around the world, 12year olds are really living adult lifestyles. They work, they marry, they support their original home which they were brought up in.

I know it may seem shocking, but even historically - this has been the case.


If someone is living in the west - then yeah, they will also find it surprising. And i don't blame them, because again, someone from another time period in history, or another place in the world will be amazed (atleast a few decades ago) at the age people get married here, and the age they have children.


Think about it, in some cultures - having kids at a young age is a blessing, in the west it's not really something plausible because the person is expected to enjoy life, become old and then have kids. Agreed?


So that's how it goes.

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.


[Qur'an 30: 21-22]

Peace. :)

[Woodrow]

Sorry to keep questioning you, I hope I don't come off as argumentative, but I'm genuinely curious: do you think kids who have periods/wet dreams should be considered "adults" in all respects? Voting, driving, going to war, choosing whether or not to stay in school, etc? Or just marriage?

I agree that individuals mature at different rates, but I must say I'd be pretty uncomfortable allowing any 12 year old the right to vote, drive, or fire a machine gun at enemy soldiers. That would have to be one bright and emotionally stable 12 year old. :)

Sadly, I hate the thought of children in combat. But, the reality is from a military stand point they make excellent soldiers. Provided their commander doesn't care about them. Historically I believe every nation has used them, going back to the days of the crusades.

My objection to having 12 year old soldiers is not because they are not mature (many are mature enough), but because it is such a horror and waste of life.

[Whatsthepoint]

in the west it's not really something plausible because the person is expected to enjoy life, become old and then have kids. Agreed?

I a person wants to make a living a developed country they have to aquire education and make a career, something which a lot of people with kids can't manage. That's why most women give their first birth between the ages of 20 to 30 or so.

[Woodrow]

Or is the maturity level required for sexual consent significantly lower than the maturity level requirement for these other activities?


.

Like or not a sexual mature person, no matter what chronological age, is going to have to come to grips and emotional maturity about their own sexuality very fast. If they do not they face the probability of making some very serious errors of judgment. For some marriage is the best choice. I will agree it is not appropriate for all, but at the same time it should not be denied to those for whom it is the best choice.

Our system of secular legislation is based on what is believed to be best for the majority, but it often neglects what is best for the individual.

[Qingu]

Again, that may be due to your cultural upbringing. I can assure you that in many other cultures around the world, 12year olds are really living adult lifestyles. They work, they marry, they support their original home which they were brought up in.

I know it may seem shocking, but even historically - this has been the case.

I don't disagree that this is the case, but I disagree that this should be the case. Appealing to historical precedent is not exactly a convincing argument (to me, at least): after all, slavery was commonplace in pretty much every society up until a few centuries ago.

I'd like to think that our cultures have improved since the time when children were sent off to fight in wars.

But more importantly, I'm not convinced that a teenager is capable of responsibility for him or herself, simply because of the hormonal changes that bombard teenagers' bodies. This has been the case in every culture (and across species—adolescent chimpanzees, like human adolescents, tend to be aggressive, impulsive, and anti-authoritarian).

[Qingu]

Like or not a sexual mature person, no matter what chronological age, is going to have to come to grips and emotional maturity about their own sexuality very fast. If they do not they face the probability of making some very serious errors of judgment. For some marriage is the best choice. I will agree it is not appropriate for all, but at the same time it should not be denied to those for whom it is the best choice.

I wasn't aware that choice necessarily enters into the equation, since many marriages in the Muslim world are arranged. I also am not convinced that a 12 year old girl can actually, responsibly "choose" to marry anyone—especially a much older man who could potentially use his experience and intelligence to manipulate her.

Also, modern society already provides a safety net for sexually active teenagers, in the form of birth control and abortions. Obviously no sex is wholly consequence-free, but these innovations certainly help to prevent the most obvious consequence of underage sex (unwanted children).

Our system of secular legislation is based on what is believed to be best for the majority, but it often neglects what is best for the individual.

I agree, but I fail to see any other options. I think there are probably a lot of kids who could learn how to drive a car safely and responsibly before the age of 16, but it's not like it's a huge inconvenience to wait a few years. Especially when the law probably prevents a lot of potentially dangerous underage drivers from getting on the road and harming people. Similarly, secular laws governing who can marry and when, though not perfect (or even consistent), probably help to prevent a lot of unhealthy marriages.

[Woodrow]

I wasn't aware that choice necessarily enters into the equation, since many marriages in the Muslim world are arranged. I also am not convinced that a 12 year old girl can actually, responsibly "choose" to marry anyone—especially a much older man who could potentially use his experience and intelligence to manipulate her.

Choice is very much a part of Islam. Do you think I would be single right now, if there was any place in the world I could select a wife and just work out the arraignments with the Parents? Do you think there would be so many single Muslim Males in the world if things were as simple as they are stereotyped to be. There are many single Muslim males on this forum alone. Believe me they all wish they could just ask their parents to buy them a wife.

Also, modern society already provides a safety net for sexually active teenagers, in the form of birth control and abortions. Obviously no sex is wholly consequence-free, but these innovations certainly help to prevent the most obvious consequence of underage sex (unwanted children).

Which I am certain a secular atheist would see as the best choice. However to much of the world, premarital sex is not looked upon favorably, and the concerns have nothing to do with disease or pregnancy, although those are fringe benefits as those problems are eliminated or greatly reduced.

I agree, but I fail to see any other options. I think there are probably a lot of kids who could learn how to drive a car safely and responsibly before the age of 16, but it's not like it's a huge inconvenience to wait a few years. Especially when the law probably prevents a lot of potentially dangerous underage drivers from getting on the road and harming people. Similarly, secular laws governing who can marry and when, though not perfect (or even consistent), probably help to prevent a lot of unhealthy marriages.

Something that is overlooked. Although a person is encourged to marry upon puberty, nobody is required to do so.

There are many factors to consider, such as how to support a marriage and how to maintain the ability to reach your highest potential.

too many people look at the cultural aspects of a few countries and decide that must be Islam.

It is very specifically forbidden to force a woman to marry somebody not of her choice.

[Mikayeel]

What's the point of following secular laws?

well!, its either that, or would you like instead of getting married that they have oncontrolled sex? teenage pregnancy, diseases etc... (does it ring a bell?)

(you prevent A BIG LOSS by a commiting a realll small one!!(not a loss in my eyes) )

[Qingu]

Choice is very much a part of Islam. Do you think I would be single right now, if there was any place in the world I could select a wife and just work out the arraignments with the Parents? Do you think there would be so many single Muslim Males in the world if things were as simple as they are stereotyped to be. There are many single Muslim males on this forum alone. Believe me they all wish they could just ask their parents to buy them a wife.

I'm not sure about stereotypes, but I thought arranged marriages were basically the standard in most less developed countries (not just Muslim countries). I can't help but notice you live in Texas. Perhaps you'd have better luck if you moved to Somalia? :)

Which I am certain a secular atheist would see as the best choice. However to much of the world, premarital sex is not looked upon favorably, and the concerns have nothing to do with disease or pregnancy, although those are fringe benefits as those problems are eliminated or greatly reduced.

too many people look at the cultural aspects of a few countries and decide that must be Islam.

From what I understand, the Prophet Muhammad set the moral precedent of marrying young girls. (Edit: in Islam. This was obviously also commonplace before Islam.)

It is very specifically forbidden to force a woman to marry somebody not of her choice.

I've always been curious about this, because in Islam aren't children required to obey their parents? If a parent wants to arrange a marriage for his daughter but the daughter refuses, who is in the wrong? Does the daughter have any legal recourse?

[Woodrow]

I'm not sure about stereotypes, but I thought arranged marriages were basically the standard in most less developed countries (not just Muslim countries). I can't help but notice you live in Texas. Perhaps you'd have better luck if you moved to Somalia? :)

Actually, if my health improves a bit more. I may move to Morocco. I've lived there before and I am certain I could stretch my Social Security check a bit further in Fez than I can here in Austin. However, I would not have any better chance of getting a wife there than I can here.

Last year I was engaged to a very wonderful woman. The choice was all hers. I was the one who ended the engagement when my health gave out.

I doubt if I would have much luck in Somalia. I find that very few Somali woman want a husband with white skin, especially one that is older than some rocks.

From what I understand, the Prophet Muhammad set the moral precedent of marrying young girls. (Edit: in Islam. This was obviously also commonplace before Islam.)

The precedents Muhammad(PBUH) provided for fair and just treatment for all ages and cultures. The treatment of woman, world wide was quite horrible for all woman, prior to then. Something I here very often from women who have reverted is that they can not believe the amount of freedom they gained. You will also hear that from many women on this forum. the Moral precedent set was not that of marrying young women. It was set to not marry one before she reaches Puberty, Not to force her into marriage and to do no harm to a woman. As strange and as difficult it is to accept, Aisha met all of that.

I've always been curious about this, because in Islam aren't children required to obey their parents? If a parent wants to arrange a marriage for his daughter but the daughter refuses, who is in the wrong? Does the daughter have any legal recourse?

Children are required to obey they parents, when what the parent demands is halal. Although a child should always show respect for a parent, they are not to obey any haram requests from the parents, but they do need to refuse with respect and not with anger or hate.

[Qingu]

Actually, if my health improves a bit more. I may move to Morocco. I've lived there before and I am certain I could stretch my Social Security check a bit further in Fez than I can here in Austin. However, I would not have any better chance of getting a wife there than I can here.

Last year I was engaged to a very wonderful woman. The choice was all hers. I was the one who ended the engagement when my health gave out.

I doubt if I would have much luck in Somalia. I find that very few Somali woman want a husband with white skin, especially one that is older than some rocks.

:(

Well, who needs women anyway! :)

(Seriously though, I am very sorry to hear that.)

The precedents Muhammad(PBUH) provided for fair and just treatment for all ages and cultures. The treatment of woman, world wide was quite horrible for all woman, prior to then. Something I here very often from women who have reverted is that they can not believe the amount of freedom they gained. You will also hear that from many women on this forum. the Moral precedent set was not that of marrying young women. It was set to not marry one before she reaches Puberty, Not to force her into marriage and to do no harm to a woman. As strange and as difficult it is to accept, Aisha met all of that.

I don't deny that 7th-century Islam in many ways improved the lives of women over the status quo of the time.

Children are required to obey they parents, when what the parent demands is halal. Although a child should always show respect for a parent, they are not to obey any haram requests from the parents, but they do need to refuse with respect and not with anger or hate.

Is commanding your child to marry someone haram?

If so, what recourses does a child have to refuse their parents' choice of husband/wife? Can the child legally go to a qadi and get a ruling?

[Woodrow]

:(

Well, who needs women anyway! :)

(Seriously though, I am very sorry to hear that.)


I don't deny that 7th-century Islam in many ways improved the lives of women over the status quo of the time.


Is commanding your child to marry someone haram?

If so, what recourses does a child have to refuse their parents' choice of husband/wife? Can the child legally go to a qadi and get a ruling?

I am not all that knowledgable of sharia law, but I do know of some women who have done just that when their parents tried to force a Daughter to marry someone.

However the Qur'an does give guidance upon which the law is written.

4:19. O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

30:21. And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation