Intermingling of the sexes

[thirdwatch512]

Hello all,

In a members signature, there was a link to a forum, which had a link to a lecture by a Sheikh in Australia who spoke about intermingling of men and women. Well, I was going to respond with some questions, but I can not longer find the thread where it was posted!

So basically, the scholar said that unless a woman was with her brother/dad/husband, or the "mahram", she could not do ANYTHING under ANY circumstances with a man, unless it was absolutely an emergency.

I mean the scholar(who is prominent too) went as far as saying that women should not even drive unless they are with a mahram.

He also said that women should not attend university where they sit together.

I mean he said NO interaction between the genders at all unless absolute emergency.

At the beginning of his lecture, he also stated that he is teaching what the majority of scholars teach.

However, I feel that he might be a little extreme. I mean, most scholars that I have heard from, say that men and women CAN interact but not in private, no flirting, and it must be in a public place where all can see. So, like it would not be bad if 2 men and 3 women were sitting together or something. That is what I thought Islam believed.

But have I been wrong? Does Islam really teach very strict segregation laws between the genders?

[NoName55]

who is the scholar? and what is the title of lecture please? (I have to hear it before I can comment on it)

[جوري]

if Islam taught strict segregation do you think this would be mecca at pilgrimage?

[NoName55]

anonymous link in signature of anonymous member in an anonymous thread which directed him to an equally anonymous forum which had link to a lecture by anonymous scholar which prompted him to ask this "question"

apparently anonymity is enough of a reference to approve these threads now.

wa salam alaikum

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[thirdwatch512]

who is the scholar? and what is the title of lecture please? (I have to hear it before I can comment on it)

Hi. I have spent like ten minutes looking for it, and I can not find it. When I have more time, I will search and give you a link. But if you post here a lot, there is a member with the link in her signature.

But I am not speaking so much about the scholar.. I was asking about the general Islamic view on it, and if this scholar was right or not. Who he was is irrelevant as to what he said!

if Islam taught strict segregation do you think this would be mecca at pilgrimage?

Great point, and thanks for showing those beautiful pictures!

So might I ask.. What have you been taught on gender segregation in Islam? Like do you have guy friends and all, or?

anonymous link in signature of anonymous member in an anonymous thread which directed him to an equally anonymous forum which had link to a lecture by anonymous scholar which prompted him to ask this "question"

apparently anonymity is enough of a reference to approve these threads now.

wa salam alaikum

Sorry. But as I said, I was asking about the general Islamic view. Who the scholar is, is irrelevant to my question. I will continue to look to see if I can find the link though.

[جوري]

So might I ask.. What have you been taught on gender segregation in Islam? Like do you have guy friends and all, or?
.

I have brothers and sisters in all Muslims, that is more dear to me than friendship.. it is kinship!

peace

[thirdwatch512]

Nice!

[☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆]

:sl:
i believe this is what you were looking for

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...aze-wiked.html

from the siggy :-

- Iηтєяmiηgliηg (Mixiηg wiтђ Oρρosiтє Gєηδєя) - Lovє §icknєśś -

[------]

:salamext:

I believe you are talking about my signature. The lecture is by Sheikh Feiz Muhammad.

What have you been taught on gender segregation in Islam?

We should not mix with the opposite gender unless its a absolute necessity.

Like do you have guy friends and all, or?

We should lower our gaze from the opposite sex, and not talk to them unless for a certain reason, e.g. If someone is in college, they may talk to the opposite sex for work purposes only. And not talk more than is required.

All in all, Allaahu A'lam (Allaah knows best.)

[------]

:sl:

from the siggy :-

- Iηтєяmiηgliηg (Mixiηg wiтђ Oρρosiтє Gєηδєя) - Lovє §icknєśś -

:salamext:

Lol love sickness is a seperate link :D

[syed saboor]

Hello I am back! I just want to say, this whole business of the intermingling of the sexes reeks of Ameiricanization to me. It's interesting all these nutcase Muslim feminists want us to mingle together and brake gender seperation so they can have room to fornicate.

[thirdwatch512]

:salamext:

I believe you are talking about my signature. The lecture is by Sheikh Feiz Muhammad.



We should not mix with the opposite gender unless its a absolute necessity.



We should lower our gaze from the opposite sex, and not talk to them unless for a certain reason, e.g. If someone is in college, they may talk to the opposite sex for work purposes only. And not talk more than is required.

All in all, Allaahu A'lam (Allaah knows best.)

yes, thanks for the links! That was it. :)

So women should not even go shopping with other men around? How do you go about that if you live in the west?(or do you not?)

I just find those views very very conservative.

---

[Pk_#2]

yes, thanks for the links! That was it. :)

So women should not even go shopping with other men around? How do you go about that if you live in the west?(or do you not?)

I just find those views very very conservative.

Alright just leave him alone. If ya think his cruel why say cruel things to him? 'cause then that makes you exactly what you are suspecting him of being, get it?

Anyhow, I go Uni and there are loads and loads of 'brothers' there and loads and loads of 'Muslims' there, In my 'really dumb opinion' you can talk to them if you must! to do your work, or just ignore them (full stop)

If you don't get education I don't get how your gonna make use of your life, probably end up in the streets (God forbid),

Respect to the sheikh though!

AsalamuAlaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

I mean Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

[aamirsaab]

So women should not even go shopping with other men around? How do you go about that if you live in the west?(or do you not?)

Basically, the whole ruling of intermingling of the sexes is to prevent zina (adultery etc etc) The prime example that sticks out is flirting - in all forms, verbal or physical. Though, there are many others. The ruling however does not mean that women are not allowed to shop whilst other men are around. It is simply to say keep a barrier between you and a member of the opposite sex (that is not your family*) in order to prevent adultery and various related stuff.

*search for non-mahram and mahram for full details. There is atleast one thread dedicated to it on this forum, I'm sure.

[thirdwatch512]

Basically, the whole ruling of intermingling of the sexes is to prevent zina (adultery etc etc) The prime example that sticks out is flirting - in all forms, verbal or physical. Though, there are many others. The ruling however does not mean that women are not allowed to shop whilst other men are around. It is simply to say keep a barrier between you and a member of the opposite sex (that is not your family*) in order to prevent adultery and various related stuff.

*search for non-mahram and mahram for full details. There is atleast one thread dedicated to it on this forum, I'm sure.

So does that mean that you do not talk to females unless they are your mahram? That means you have no women friends?

[------]

:salamext:

So does that mean that you do not talk to females unless they are your mahram? That means you have no women friends?

That's right. That's how it should be for every Muslim.

[thirdwatch512]

One other question - Can you guys watch TV where the opposite sex is on? Or is that even prohibited?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

One other question - Can you guys watch TV where the opposite sex is on? Or is that even prohibited?

Some regard TV as haram. In my opinion I do not see it as haram since benefit can occur from this medium in a similar way as radio and the internet etc.
With that being said, I don't see the harm in watching a female on a tv program. However, if they're getting changed or doing something that should be kept private (I won't go into details), then this is not appropriate to be watching. It really depends on the circumstances - most of the rulings in Islam are circumstancial. There is very rarely a one-size fits all deal.

[------]

:salamext:

^ Agreed.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Hello I am back! I just want to say, this whole business of the intermingling of the sexes reeks of Ameiricanization to me. It's interesting all these nutcase Muslim feminists want us to mingle together and brake gender seperation so they can have room to fornicate.

Well a person has got to be a dirty minded individual if all they want to do is fornicate with every woman or man (if they're that way inclined) they seem to encounter.

As far as I'm aware, and what's been said on here and various other muslim friends of mine have stated, segregation is not promoted. It's a fanatical view which is absurd!

[thirdwatch512]

:sl:

Some regard TV as haram. In my opinion I do not see it as haram since benefit can occur from this medium in a similar way as radio and the internet etc.
With that being said, I don't see the harm in watching a female on a tv program. However, if they're getting changed or doing something that should be kept private (I won't go into details), then this is not appropriate to be watching. It really depends on the circumstances - most of the rulings in Islam are circumstancial. There is very rarely a one-size fits all deal.

Even if their awrah is showing? (Which obviously 99% of shows here in the west have uncovered women!)

Also, do any notable scholars/sheikhs agree with you? I have been looking around and have not found much on the issue.

I do not think many think the TV is haram.. They just think that it is of no benefit and that it is too tempting.

[aamirsaab]

Even if their awrah is showing? (Which obviously 99% of shows here in the west have uncovered women!)

Also, do any notable scholars/sheikhs agree with you? I have been looking around and have not found much on the issue.

I do not think many think the TV is haram.. They just think that it is of no benefit and that it is too tempting.

If their awrah is showing then it wouldn't be permissable to watch, obviously. As for Sheiks opinion? I go with my local Imaam - who is very level headed and knowledgeable. Again, as stated before most of the rulings have a degree of flexibility. It only requires a little common sense to understand and carry out the rulings :).

[Malaikah]

Even if their awrah is showing? (Which obviously 99% of shows here in the west have uncovered women!)

Hi,

It's an issue that comes down to a lot of things. For most people on this forum (and indeed, the world), we live in a society where most women uncover their awrah, so that must be taken into consideration.

I personally don't know the answer to that question, because I am a female, obvious it doesn't apply to me (because for the most part men in my society cover their awrah - Thank Allah that knee length shorts are fashionable these days!), so I have given it little thought.

:sl: aamirsaab,

Coudl you share your shaykhs view on this topic? Jazakaallah khayr.

[snakelegs]

If their awrah is showing then it wouldn't be permissable to watch, obviously. As for Sheiks opinion? I go with my local Imaam - who is very level headed and knowledgeable. Again, as stated before most of the rulings have a degree of flexibility. It only requires a little common sense to understand and carry out the rulings :).

i find that a lot in islam boils down to basic common sense, although there are other interpretations...

[thirdwatch512]

ok you guys, this may be a bit off topic, but it has been bugging me ALL day(I have LITERALLY been googling for FIVE HOURS on this.)

Ok, so here is this thing that is said to be in Bukhari..

Under the chapter, "The Tawaf Of Women With Men," found in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Ibn Juraij reports from ‘Ata who was asked, "How did they mix with men (i.e. the women on Hajj)?" ]
" ‘Ata said "The women never mixed with the men, and ‘Aisha used to perform Tawaf separately and never mixed with the men. Once it happened that Aisha was performing the Tawaf and a woman said to her, 'O Mother Of Faithful Believers! Let us touch the Black Stone.' Aisha said to her, 'Go yourself.' and refused to do so. The wives of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) used to come out at night in disguise and used to perform Tawaf with the men. But whenever they intended to enter the K’abah they would stay outside until the men had gone out." [Vol. 2 pg. 399, The Book Of Hajj].

also, this one..

Bukhari, Volume 1, Chapter 2, in the Book of Al Hajj, Hadith No. 1618, at Section 64 about "Tawaff": It is narrated upon the authority of Amr Ibn Ali that Ibn Hisham prevented women from mixing in tawaff from the area of the men. A man asked him "how did he do that, was it before or after the aiyah of khimar and jilbab? He said after"

Does anyone know where these is in Sahih Bukhari? Can anyone link me to it? or is it not there?
It has been bugging the fire out of me. I have looked at volume one, tried to find a hadith number 1618, tried all it. And it is SEVERELY getting on my nerves.

It is bugging the FIRE out of me!

[Malaikah]

I wouldn't have a clue- just wondering why you want to know so much?

[snakelegs]

well i found this
http://tayyibun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=384

scroll down to the post
"The Article:
Fiqh of Free Mixing (Hukm ul-Ikhtilaat)"

it mentions the same source you gave. i am confused by the source -
In Bukhari, Volume 1, Chapter 2, in the Book of Al Hajj, Hadith No. 1618
i don't know how it relates to the site i use for hadiths
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

the normal arrangement seems to be volume, book, number.
maybe the hadith isn't sahih?

[thirdwatch512]

I wouldn't have a clue- just wondering why you want to know so much?

i am someone who if i do not know the source I will go ballistic. I always look for proof behind it. If it says a reference, at least sometimes I will look it up myself to verify.

But I can not find these 2 hadiths that claim to be in Bukhari. And it bugs me!

[thirdwatch512]

well i found this
http://tayyibun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=384

scroll down to the post
"The Article:
Fiqh of Free Mixing (Hukm ul-Ikhtilaat)"

it mentions the same source you gave. i am confused by the source -

Yes, that is the same article I read!!

In Bukhari, Volume 1, Chapter 2, in the Book of Al Hajj, Hadith No. 1618
i don't know how it relates to the site i use for hadiths
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

the normal arrangement seems to be volume, book, number.
maybe the hadith isn't sahih?

You might be right. I have looked at the book of hajj on for Bukhari and have found nothing. I have used the search furiously, typing in like "tawaf woman mixing" etc and nothing comes up! I have just continuously looked to see if any Hadiths were in there in Bukhari, and have not found any!

Not only that, but I do not know any Hadith site that organizes them by Chapters, and by numbers!

[snakelegs]

i suppose it could be a weak or fabricated hadith?
in bukhari sahih the section on hajj only goes to # 823

[thirdwatch512]

i suppose it could be a weak or fabricated hadith?
in bukhari sahih the section on hajj only goes to # 823

Perhaps! I wish there was an Imam or scholar on Hadith that knew!

[Malaikah]

Just wanted to point out- there are no weak or fabricated hadiths in Sahih Bukhari (sahih means authentic :))

[snakelegs]

Just wanted to point out- there are no weak or fabricated hadiths in Sahih Bukhari (sahih means authentic :))

true but the reference was
In Bukhari, Volume 1, Chapter 2, in the Book of Al Hajj, Hadith No. 1618, at Section 64

it doesn't say sahih.
it does not seem to exist in sahih bukhari.
is it possible there are other hadith collections by bukhari that are not sahih?

[Malaikah]

Hmm, there aren't any that I know off...

[SHAH G]

You have to lower your gaze, yeah! At hajj who do you thinks gunna do bad stuff when they are repenting even woman have to uncover their face when going around kaaba so don't bring hajj in this issue. Ok yeah no male or female should should meet or be together not even talk. People will say that hz aisha talked to men to pass hadith, well she was a mother of the beliverz. The reason she was the mother is b'cos nobody can marry her. But learning is diffrent many schoalerz learn't from woman but mixing is not allowed and a woman should have mahram, without a mahram a girl can be driving on the road and she gets a puncture in tyre and many driverz see her while she sees whats happening but she becomes a pray for evil minded men driving past and anything can go wrong to rape, murder or even racism but if their is a man(mahram) with her then nothing can go wrong. Just remember small things lead to big things.