Sperm cell, question directed to atheists

[Mikayeel]

Salam wa alekum!

This question has always bothered me, since atheist lack the believe of a creator how can you explain the fact about the sperm cell? The way a sperm cell in created(you believe it was made through a sequence of random events) because never in the history of man kind has a sperm cell gone into the women to see the obstacle's it going to face, and then come back to the male body and tell the other sperm cells how they should adapt them self!(for the journey they are going to face), this has not happened, and yet we see the sperm cell completely geared up for this hard task!, from tail, to the enzymes, to the carbohydrated based ''engine'', science says its life greatest miracle!,(i am not insulting no body, am i just beg to ask this question this it has bothered me a while :) ). So how do you atheists believe this all happened? (particularly the sperm cell). thanks alot for reading so far! peace

[glo]

Now I am not terribly good at explaining evolution, or genetics for that matter. I am sure others can do a better job, and join in.

From an evolutionary point of view, a sperm would have evolved to its present 'perfect state' (if you want to call it that) over tens of thousands of years:
With each fertilisation, the sperm best equipped to overcome those obstacles you mention, is most likely to be the one who 'wins the race' and manages to fertilise the egg ... thereby passing its genes on to the next generation.
So, from generation to generation to sperm becomes better equipped.

I am sure it is more complex than that, but that's how I understand evolution theory ...

Now if you want to know how multiplication through sex between two genders came about in the first place (in evolutionary terms), I am really out of my depth and can't help you ... :?

[Mikayeel]

oke, i am not saying that evolution did not happen!, let say it did!, then i still beg to ask, never ever, has a sperm cell gone back from the women to the man, to tell the other sperm cells how to evolve!, therefor here the whole evolution theory collapses!(in this case), because u r building stones in the air, not on solid ground.

[glo]

Now I am not terribly good at explaining evolution, or genetics for that matter.

Seems I was right ... :D

oke, i am not saying that evolution did not happen!, let say it did!, then i still beg to ask, never ever, has a sperm cell gone back from the women to the man, to tell the other sperm cells how to evolve!, therefor here the whole evolution theory collapses!(in this case), because u r building stones in the air, not on solid ground.

That's the whole point of evolution theory - it is a natural process, and nobody needs to 'go back to tell the others how to evolve'.
The sperm cells which aren't up to the job lose the race. They die, disappear and are never spoken off again. Consequently the genetic material they carry (which also carries the genetic make-up for the sperm of the new generation) dies and disappears too.
The next generation is likely to carry the more successful genes. Do that over thousands of generations, and differences begin to emerge ...

Put it this way, imagine (this is just a pretended scenario), that in the long distant past sperms were circular and had no tail - thereby making the whole process of getting to the egg a lot more difficult.
Now, imagine by chance (through some genetic change) one sperm cell turns out slightly elongated. Because of its changed appearance it is better suited for the job and manages to fertilise the egg - thereby passing on its changed genetic material to the next generation, and consequently to the next generation's sperm cells (I am a bit hazy about how exactly the genetic material is passed onto the sex cells, so please forgive me there. I am still waiting for a real evolutionist to come forward and put me right! :D)

According to this process of selection of the most successful design, over the course of generations the sperms cells change their appearance to the one most suited for their purpose.

Am I making any sense at all??? :?

Peace

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[Trumble]

oke, i am not saying that evolution did not happen!, let say it did!, then i still beg to ask, never ever, has a sperm cell gone back from the women to the man, to tell the other sperm cells how to evolve!, therefor here the whole evolution theory collapses!(in this case), because u r building stones in the air, not on solid ground.

You seem to have ignored glo's reply. It is the sperm cells best adapted that ended up joining with the eggs, hence their genes and characteristics that are perpetuated in subsequent generations. There is no need to "tell the other sperm cells how to evolve" in the way you suggest... indeed they have no way of evolving, as the 'failures' do not reproduce.

[wilberhum]

Salam wa alekum!

This question has always bothered me, since atheist lack the believe of a creator how can you explain the fact about the sperm cell? The way a sperm cell in created(you believe it was made through a sequence of random events) because never in the history of man kind has a sperm cell gone into the women to see the obstacle's it going to face, and then come back to the male body and tell the other sperm cells how they should adapt them self!(for the journey they are going to face), this has not happened, and yet we see the sperm cell completely geared up for this hard task!, from tail, to the enzymes, to the carbohydrated based ''engine'', science says its life greatest miracle!,(i am not insulting no body, am i just beg to ask this question this it has bothered me a while :) ). So how do you atheists believe this all happened? (particularly the sperm cell). thanks alot for reading so far! peace

Why do birds fly south in the winter. Different question same answer. And the answer contains more than 3 or 5 letters.

On second thought, you will never get it.

Those that do, survive, those that don't, don't.

[Isambard]

I am no biologist so I cant answer you in any detail.

What I can do is question what you mean by 'perfect state'.

If you think about it, its actually quite the opposite. Being a sperm cell aint no fun! Statistically speaking you have a better chance of surviving a trip to the sun then you do of 'making it' as a sperm cell!.

Anyone good at math can help me out.

-What is the avg of total intercourse in a man's life vs. nocternal emissions?
-How many MILLIONS (maybe more) of sperm cells are in ejaculate? Compare that to the 1 that can make it (in typical cases).
-Sperm can only develop if in contact with an egg. A man has little chance of knowing when a female is fertile, so how many times has sperm been 'wasted'?
-Even if a woman is fertile, what is the ratio of times the sperm wont make it or it wont take?

I'd call the system far from perfect.

[Mikayeel]

It is the sperm cells best adapted that ended up joining with the eggs, hence their genes and characteristics that are perpetuated in subsequent generations. There is no need to "tell the other sperm cells how to evolve" in the way you suggest... indeed they have no way of evolving, as the 'failures' do not reproduce.

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

Why do birds fly south in the winter. Different question same answer. And the answer contains more than 3 or 5 letters.

On second thought, you will never get it.

Those that do, survive, those that don't, don't.

Your are involving in organism that has a brain (full funtioning brain) this case a bird, its able to make decisions!, and i am talking about a cell, which has no brain! unable to make decisions, unable to take care of its self!

I am no biologist so I cant answer you in any detail.

What I can do is question what you mean by 'perfect state'.

If you think about it, its actually quite the opposite. Being a sperm cell aint no fun! Statistically speaking you have a better chance of surviving a trip to the sun then you do of 'making it' as a sperm cell!.

A sperm carries the genitic data, from the male body the to women body.
The Body of the sperm is just build like a machine, the head of the sperm is covered by an armor, covering another armor, that armor is covering the cargo which contains the 23 chromosomes, all the information concerning the human body right down to the finest detail are carried inside the chromosomes. The chromosomes need to unite with of the women to create a humen being.
Armor system will protect this valuable cargo right trough its journey.
The engine is at the middle of the sperm, enabling the tail to move like propeller, since there is an engine there has to be somekind of fuel on which the engine runs on, and since fructose is a monosaccharide very high in energy, its been placed in the liquid surrounding the sperms(why is this fructose? Not glucose or galactose or ribose? etc). Thanks to this perfect design the sperm heads straight to the egg cell. When the length of the sperm and the distance travelled are considered it emerges that this relativly as fast as a speed boat!
The sperms armor, engine and tail parts are assembled to one another in turns, what emerges as a result is a wonderfull piece of engineering. Now think alit bit!, how do these unconscious cells know how to prepare the sperm cell in the appropriate form? Despite the fact they know nothing about the mothers body. With what intelligence did they assemble these components in the correct order? How do they know that the engine needs fructose? How did they learn how to build an engine that runs of fructose? The number of sperm cells emitted is delibratly kept high because as soon as they enter the womens body they find themself facing lethal danger. There is a dense mixture of acids in the mothers reproductive organs designed to combat bacteria this acid mixture is also fatal to sperm. This acid is fatal for the womens health and its so powerfull that it could destroy all the sperm cells and in that case fertilisation could of not taken place, and we would not be here discussing this now!, Look at the fluid the sperm is in a basic compound is added to it! This compound partially eliminate the effects of the acids in the mothers womb, this will keep the number reaching an egg to fertilize high! And if you notice closely you will see that all the sperm cells follow the same path, how do they know which path to choose? How do they know where the egg not larger than a spec of dust is? This is thought of in the most of perfect of ways, the egg gives of chemical signals to attract the sperm cells
Refering to the quran
It is we who have created you. Why, then do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed i.e sperm) which you emit?
It is you who created it?
Or are we the creator?
(surha al waqia : 57-59)

I have to ask, is it still not in perfect condition?, if it wasnt perfect my friend you and me wouldnt even be here discussing this very matter!

peace!

[Trumble]

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough and very, very lucky (is a winning lottery ticket any more 'perfect' than any other lottery ticket?) What gets weeded out (very slowly) are those not good enough.

I don't mean to seem rude, but your question has been answered. You just aren't listening.

[guyabano]

Spermcells are far away to be perfect. They are lazy ass, it take them more than a day to find their way, and besides, a man shoot millions of them and only one make it.

When I fill out 10 millions of lottery papers, my chance to win is also rather high, don't you think, but my ratio is rather bad

Among organisms, those who reach a certain degree of perfection are insects like cockroaches. They didn't change their physical appearance for millions of years, so you can say, that they reached a level, where is no more requests to change anything on them. They will even survive an atomic war, even mankind.

[Mikayeel]

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough and very, very lucky (is a winning lottery ticket any more 'perfect' than any other lottery ticket?) What gets weeded out (very slowly) are those not good enough.

I don't mean to seem rude, but your question has been answered. You just aren't listening.

no answer here satisfies the question, all the answer just spin around the question. quote me an answer, giving here above which is a rational answer that truely satisfies the question?

Spermcells are far away to be perfect. They are lazy ass, it take them more than a day to find their way, and besides, a man shoot millions of them and only one make it.

When I fill out 10 millions of lottery papers, my chance to win is also rather high, don't you think, but my ratio is rather bad

From the above, what i have written about the journey the sperm cell, quote a sentence that proves it being not so perfect at what it does(i am not talking about a single cell)(am talking about the whole journey and the mechanism behind it). maybe thats a good things after all!? that you emit about 250 million sperm cells, regardless of how long it takes or how many are emitted. why dont see it from an other side, that maybe the journey to the final egg is a tough journey and alot are emitted so a PERFECT one does make it. and i dont seem to understand what you mean by the term ''lazyass''
how is a sperm lazy? this has got to be the strangest thing i have recently. peace

[glo]

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

Not really. Actually, what I did say in my post was this:

From an evolutionary point of view, a sperm would have evolved to its present 'perfect state' (if you want to call it that) over tens of thousands of years:

According to evolution theory, nothing is perfect, but everything strives for perfection.
If humans live for another few thousand generations, you may find that sperm cells have changed, evolved, and become even better suited to their purpose.

A sperm carries the genitic data, from the male body the to women body.
The Body of the sperm is just build like a machine, the head of the sperm is covered by an armor, covering another armor, that armor is covering the cargo which contains the 23 chromosomes, all the information concerning the human body right down to the finest detail are carried inside the chromosomes. The chromosomes need to unite with of the women to create a humen being.
Armor system will protect this valuable cargo right trough its journey.
The engine is at the middle of the sperm, enabling the tail to move like propeller, since there is an engine there has to be somekind of fuel on which the engine runs on, and since fructose is a monosaccharide very high in energy, its been placed in the liquid surrounding the sperms(why is this fructose? Not glucose or galactose or ribose? etc). Thanks to this perfect design the sperm heads straight to the egg cell. When the length of the sperm and the distance travelled are considered it emerges that this relativly as fast as a speed boat!
The sperms armor, engine and tail parts are assembled to one another in turns, what emerges as a result is a wonderfull piece of engineering. Now think alit bit!, how do these unconscious cells know how to prepare the sperm cell in the appropriate form? Despite the fact they know nothing about the mothers body. With what intelligence did they assemble these components in the correct order? How do they know that the engine needs fructose? How did they learn how to build an engine that runs of fructose? The number of sperm cells emitted is delibratly kept high because as soon as they enter the womens body they find themself facing lethal danger. There is a dense mixture of acids in the mothers reproductive organs designed to combat bacteria this acid mixture is also fatal to sperm. This acid is fatal for the womens health and its so powerfull that it could destroy all the sperm cells and in that case fertilisation could of not taken place, and we would not be here discussing this now!, Look at the fluid the sperm is in a basic compound is added to it! This compound partially eliminate the effects of the acids in the mothers womb, this will keep the number reaching an egg to fertilize high! And if you notice closely you will see that all the sperm cells follow the same path, how do they know which path to choose? How do they know where the egg not larger than a spec of dust is? This is thought of in the most of perfect of ways, the egg gives of chemical signals to attract the sperm cells
Refering to the quran
It is we who have created you. Why, then do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed i.e sperm) which you emit?
It is you who created it?
Or are we the creator?
(surha al waqia : 57-59)

I have to ask, is it still not in perfect condition?, if it wasnt perfect my friend you and me wouldnt even be here discussing this very matter!

peace!

I agree that the process of human reproduction is an amazing one!
Come to think of that, life is full of amazing and wondrous things!

Evolution theory clearly is at odds with creationism. There is no way around it.
We will have to live with the fact that different people have different explanations or theories to explain life as we know it.

As it happens, I believe (like you) that God is behind the creation of the universe.
Just how he did it, I am not sure ... and I don't think I need to be!
I am fairly at peace with the different theories people come up with.
Evolution theory happens to make a lot of sense - and continues to gather supporting evidence all the time!

Peace :)

[ricardo_sousa]

the sperm cell is just a biological function of our body. But it is not perfect. No, because that are many men who are infertile. In this cases "God failed".lol

Basic it is a biological function, that evolution have made "good enough". But it is not perfect. about "250 million sperm cells, regardless of how long it takes or how many are emitted. (...) so a PERFECT one does make it".. you should study mathematics and the probabilities theories.

Because is such a difficult "journey", the more you have, the more chances you have of "wining". It is the same with turtles: they have thousands of "babies", because only a few will survive. It´s evolution, survive and mathematics what you need to learn.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Bro, what's even more surprising is that the most important issue - i.e. life itself, or the production of the first cell to be existent is something harder to believe.

Like, just because people want to deny the concept of God - they really don't have a fair enough explanation as to why or how that first living cell was formed. Their only argument is that the cell was formed while being in a warm puddle of some sort, some lighting came and brought it to life under the right circumstances. Whereas scientific research shows that you can't produce something living from something non living, although some may argue otherwise.


The idea of natural selection, and the survival of the fittest is a good and valid point when discussing different species. However, this in of itself isn't something we deny. It's simply a design and pattern in Allah's creation.


About the issue of the big bang, again - they require more faith than us. Since there is no proof that there have been billions of big bangs to reach one stable one - which we exist in today. Since we're all living one life in this world, we might aswell put our faith in something which has alot more validity or clearer explanation. :)



Think about it - does this look like it's happened by 'accident'?

So in reality - they require more faith than we as believers in God do. :) lol.

[Godless Heathen]

The long and short of both evolution and nature in general is that the whole thing is basically a sieve method.

Scenario - You want to access someone's bank account. You have their card but not their pin number. You know it consists of four numbers. You can punch in every single combination of XXXX with the numbers of 1 through to 0.

Eventually, after a certain amount of time and a certain amount of tries, you get the right 4 digit number. That 4 digit number is remembered and the others forgotten.

That's basically evolution in a nutshell.

[Trumble]

no answer here satisfies the question, all the answer just spin around the question. quote me an answer, giving here above which is a rational answer that truely satisfies the question?

You.

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

Me.

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough and very, very lucky (is a winning lottery ticket any more 'perfect' than any other lottery ticket?) What gets weeded out (very slowly) are those not good enough.

The answer is both perfectly rational and satisfies the question, as do several others that have been posted. As I said, you just aren't listening.

From the above, what i have written about the journey the sperm cell, quote a sentence that proves it being not so perfect at what it does(i am not talking about a single cell)(am talking about the whole journey and the mechanism behind it). maybe thats a good things after all!? that you emit about 250 million sperm cells, regardless of how long it takes or how many are emitted. why dont see it from an other side, that maybe the journey to the final egg is a tough journey and alot are emitted so a PERFECT one does make it.

I'm not sure I can make it any clearer.. my lottery example was about the best I could do. It does not have to be 'perfect' just a) good enough and b) lucky. ONE sperm has to get there first, just as one person will win a road-race but to do that they need only be good and a little lucky with regard to, say, weather conditions that suit them, not the 'perfect' athlete. If a particular sperm was, in fact, perfect no others would be needed at all let alone 250 million of them. I'd point out that on a lot of occasions none of them make it, and on rare ones several do. Just as some weeks there are no winning lottery tickets and on others several.

[guyabano]

:salamext:
Their only argument is that the cell was formed while being in a warm puddle of some sort, some lighting came and brought it to life under the right circumstances.

So you have your answer. Still better than the 'Creator story' . For creating life, basically, 2 Elements are necessary: Carbon and H2O (water). Astroscientists all over the globe look in space for planets having those 2 elements. On Mars, they found traces of water, ergo, there might be also bacterias swimming somewhere.
In my opinion, that is proove enough for the theory of evolution.

[- Qatada -]

So you have your answer. Still better than the 'Creator story' . For creating life, basically, 2 Elements are necessary: Carbon and H2O (water).

Astroscientists all over the globe look in space for planets having those 2 elements. On Mars, they found traces of water, ergo, there might be also bacterias swimming somewhere.

Yeah, shall i tell you what's even more surprising? A man who was totally illiterate, who didn't know how to read or write, living in a desert land knew this!?

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[Qur'an 21: 30]

[جوري]

is this the thread of utter rubbish?
I hope anyone serious enough to study spermatogenesis, both the genetics and physiology of itwill purchase a book. Please keep your philosophy to sections where it is more apropos, this is health and science not the fruits of mental infarction section..
Proteomics of Spermatogenesis is a good place to start.. actually I find that people appreciate the complexity of this guided process more when looking at it from the branch of molecular biology.

http://books.google.com/books?id=20b...oP-dwIygVL4xGY


cheers

[Godless Heathen]

Yeah, shall i tell you what's even more surprising? A man who was totally illiterate, who didn't know how to read or write, living in a desert land knew this!?

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[Qur'an 21: 30]

I assume they mean everything on earth? There are some interesting theories on alternative biochemistry for other planets Here.

[جوري]

Got to love the science of 'wikipedia'

:lol:

[- Qatada -]

I assume they mean everything on earth? There are some interesting theories on alternative biochemistry for other planets Here.

The verse has a general meaning, and does not have to refer to the creatures on the earth only.

[Godless Heathen]

Got to love the science of 'wikipedia'

:lol:

There are 16, yes 16 references there. Sooner or later you're gonna have to put down the holy book and take a look at the real universe.

[جوري]

There are 16, yes 16 references there. Sooner or later you're gonna have to put down the holy book and take a look at the real universe.

The references were really out of this world, I especially enjoyed the bit about star track, it cemented the deal for me. Do tell me what is the 'real universe' all about?

cheers

[Godless Heathen]

The references were really out of this world, I especially enjoyed the bit about star track, it cemented the deal for me. Do tell me what is the 'real universe' all about?

cheers

Hmm, well in hindsight maybe it is out of the intellectual league of someone who'll accept that supernatural beings exist. what about ghosts? do you belive in ghosts? whoooo! scary.

It's funny how many theists will accept supernatural beings but not alien organisms, which are far more likely. But i forget, that's not the written in the thousands of years old book.

[جوري]

Hmm, well in hindsight maybe it is out of the intellectual league of someone who'll accept that supernatural beings exist.

That doesn't address my question, and has positively no relevance to the topic!

what about ghosts? do you belive in ghosts? whoooo! scary.

I worry about the mental status of someone who injects this in a topic about sperm cells.

It's funny how many theists will accept supernatural beings but not alien organisms,

Again I am not sure what aliens or super natural beings have to do with sperm cells?

which are far more likely. But i forget, that's not the written in the thousands of years old book

You are familiar with the content of the thousand year book or just browsed the cliff notes?


cheers!

[Godless Heathen]

I answered this topic posts ago, but once again it's not someone looking for the true explanation it's just someone trolling for god. Science is the answer. It changes when new information becomes available. It makes sense.

[جوري]

I answered this topic posts ago,

I know, and you have done a hilarious job, hence we introduced a book into the topic!

but once again it's not someone looking for the true explanation

Must be a speed reader, or know something actual scientists don't?.. can you tell the difference between, spermeogenesis and Spermatogenesis right off the top of your head as you do of the 'evolution of sperm'? or should I anxiousely await for a whole five minutes while you browse wikipedia for an answer?

it's just someone trolling for god. Science is the answer

This is an Islamic forum you know, not the cabal atheist committee, don't like it here, don't be a member here it is simple! :sunny:

. It changes when new information becomes available. It makes sense.

What makes sense? perhaps you can indoctrinate us down your path of enlightenment?

cheers!

[Godless Heathen]

Yeah, i wouldn't know **** about those, because i use my honours degree in biochemistry as a placemat, obviously.

[Godless Heathen]

This is an Islamic forum you know, not the cabal atheist committee, don't like it here, don't be a member here it is simple! :sunny:

Why muslims feel they are so oppressed is beyond me. Atheists get 10x the **** muslims do.

[جوري]

Yeah, i wouldn't know **** about those, because i use my honours degree in biochemistry as a placemat, obviously.

You should return it to the diploma mill that generated it for you and get all $25 back..

cheers

[Godless Heathen]

It's not a diploma, it's a degree....

[جوري]

This is an Islamic forum you know, not the cabal atheist committee, don't like it here, don't be a member here it is simple! :sunny:

Why muslims feel they are so oppressed is beyond me. Atheists get 10x the **** muslims do.

Did anyone complain to you about being oppressed?
Oh I forget, atheists men are exceptionally chevalier, I forget how often they speak on behalf of all beaten Muslim women... let me go be all meek and feeble so your efforts wouldn't be so wasted!...

cheers

[جوري]

It's not a diploma, it's a degree....

Whatever it is, go back to aunt mille's and demand your money back! :sunny:

cheers

[Godless Heathen]

Did anyone complain to you about being oppressed?
Oh I forget, atheists men are exceptionally chevalier, I forget how often they speak on behalf of all beaten Muslim women... let me go be all meek and feeble so your efforts wouldn't be so wasted!...

cheers

lol you still wrote cheers at the end of that lol :statisfie:

[جوري]

lol you still wrote cheers at the end of that lol :statisfie:

ain't that a good thing? :?

[Godless Heathen]

Whatever it is, go back to aunt mille's and demand your money back! :sunny:

cheers

anyway, now that my atheist hero part has been done, back to talking about spermz

[Godless Heathen]

ain't that a good thing? :?

It was good yes :D

[Trumble]

Proteomics of Spermatogenesis is a good place to start.. actually I find that people appreciate the complexity of this guided process more when looking at it from the branch of molecular biology.

Yup... just the sort of topic that crops up over lunch... :rollseyes

Stop showing off, PA. It's perfectly possible to comment on this sort of topic without having a PhD in a related discipline, just as it is possible to talk about the Big Bang without being a professional astronomer or cosmologist. If anyone is mistaken in their opinion it would be far more helpful if you could provide a brief explanation of why in layman's terms, not just links to books only specialists could understand.

[جوري]

Yup... just the sort of topic that crops up over lunch... :rollseyes

Stop showing off, PA. It's perfectly possible to comment on this sort of topic without having a PhD in a related discipline, just as it is possible to talk about the Big Bang without being a professional astronomer or cosmologist. If anyone is mistaken in their opinion it would be far more helpful if you could provide a brief explanation of why in layman's terms, not just links to books only specialists could understand.

Come now dear trumble have some cookies..
And yes perfectly ok to offer an explanation to any topic in lay man's terms, but I wouldn't label it 'scientific' especially when it borders on philosophy-- natural for each party to view things from their perspective.. it is then an opinion that is all, and there is no shortage of those!..

I admit the topic of the OP is a bit elusive, even to my own person, I wouldn't have phrased it quite that way, but there is no harm in gradation of knowledge, phrasing things in a slightly askew manner, and or sharing ones experience.
What I'll not be tolerant of however are folks who are inclined to take liberties to insult God/Muslims/religion in any form or fashion while glorifying their own reflections and/or achievements or lack thereof in some instances just because they want to take advantage of Muslim mannerism.
To be honest that is one conflict, I haven't perfected yet, and until such a time I become 'fully wise' I'll give rude and insolent greenhorns a taste of their medicine ey?
Don't deny an old witch her pleasures :)

cheers

[Mikayeel]

I answered this topic posts ago, but once again it's not someone looking for the true explanation it's just someone trolling for god. Science is the answer. It changes when new information becomes available. It makes sense.

science is the answer? science has got some answer but its definatly not THE answer, ''It changes when new information becomes available'' So will that say if today sciences said, we evolved from dogs, u be amongst them on the street debating and saying we evolved from dogs. BUT since science is not stable who knows tommorow it might say nonono! we evolved from APES!, and same stories goes u be debating that we evolved from apes. So that means your are not stable in your believes!(since science is THE answer and your answer), so during your lifetime YOU MIGHT believe in dosens of things and at the end they could all be proven wrong!!, dont get me wrong science is great! amazing, but it is not THE answer. am i right?

peace.

[Isambard]

science is the answer? science has got some answer but its definatly not THE answer, ''It changes when new information becomes available'' So will that say if today sciences said, we evolved from dogs, u be amongst them on the street debating and saying we evolved from dogs. BUT since science is not stable who knows tommorow it might say nonono! we evolved from APES!, and same stories goes u be debating that we evolved from apes. So that means your are not stable in your believes!(since science is THE answer and your answer), so during your lifetime YOU MIGHT believe in dosens of things and at the end they could all be proven wrong!!, dont get me wrong science is great! amazing, but it is not THE answer. am i right?

peace.

Science is self-correcting, religion is not.

Or do you really believe that falling stars are to chase off jinn?

In regards to the philosophy in the thread, well the OP did call sperm 'perfect' which isn't a scientific term. It falls in the realm of philosophy.

[Mikayeel]

Science is self-correcting, religion is not.

Or do you really believe that falling stars are to chase off jinn?

Self correcting, that means you will never live to see the end of it? so you might live your whole life believing in something which turned out to be fake/wrong, doesnt feel good does it?, well islam does not need to correct is self as it is in a perfect state, obvsly you would argue and you are free too!.

and yes i believe that!(i believe everything in the quran with eyes closed) and no dont go in dept as i havent studied physics, and have no knowledge on stars!

[Isambard]

Self correcting, that means you will never live to see the end of it? so you might live your whole life believing in something which turned out to be fake/wrong, doesnt feel good does it?, well islam does not need to correct is self as it is in a perfect state, obvsly you would argue and you are free too!.

and yes i believe that!(i believe everything in the quran with eyes closed) and no dont go in dept as i havent studied physics, and have no knowledge on stars!

Why do you own a computer? You know in 10yrs time the model will become old.

Why does one try to find the correct answer for a math equation? Why not just use some arbitrary number and say "there, Im done!" and never check your answer?

You realize that if people followed your philosophy the overall human life expectancy wouldnt have trippled right? And the standard of living gone up in all areas...

Even what you are typing on is a result of science so it does seem a tad hypocritical.

[Mikayeel]

Why do you own a computer? You know in 10yrs time the model will become old.

Why does one try to find the correct answer for a math equation? Why not just use some arbitrary number and say "there, Im done!" and never check your answer?

You realize that if people followed your philosophy the overall human life expectancy wouldnt have trippled right? And the standard of living gone up in all areas...

Even what you are typing on is a result of science so it does seem a tad hypocritical.

thank you for proving that science is a GREAT GREAT gift!, its absolutly amazing!, but still science is not THE answer as i stated before in this thread, science cant be the answer because science it self is not perfect, science cant create things!, science has no value WE PUT THE VALUE IN!. peace!

[wilberhum]

thank you for proving that science is a GREAT GREAT gift!, its absolutly amazing!, but still science is not THE answer as i stated before in this thread, science cant be the answer because science it self is not perfect, science cant create things!, science has no value WE PUT THE VALUE IN!. peace!

And now that we have "PUT THE VALUE IN", it is now valuable.

And the more value we put into it by adding knowledge, the more valuable it will become.

[جوري]

What do computers and math have to do with philosophy or religion?
what are we comparing here and for what purpose?.. you might as well liken a banana peel to horse linements!
I think anyone who reads hamada's posts can safely conclude that all he wants to state, is whether or not science is self correcting, it doesn't provide all the answers, nor has it or ever will be an device to measure things that simply can't be subjected to scientific measure.

Yesterday I had a dream about a lady on 41st street making crème brûlée for her friend on 132, I was a spectator in the dream and didn't know either party, all I kept thinking while watching one heat the sugar on top is, isn't 132 part of spanish harlem?...
Please tell me how it is that you can apply scientific measure to something I saw happen yesterday in a dream? what would it translate to? a nerve firng across a synapse? well how would that be different from a nerve firing across a synapse in a dream that my door man had? one that Bush had one that sarkozy had? or are you to deny that dreams happen and take a life all their own because they are simply non-scientifc? While at it, won't you apply scientific measure to hopes, aspirations, pain.. aren't they all things that we can understand and share universally as part of our being?
science is science and religion is religion. If they were one in the same they would go by the same name.. life dependent on just one field would cease, just like a tree without sunshine, branches or water.. each facet conjoins to give us the general atmosphere, the full flavor of life.. land/water.. black/white science/philosophy art/math physical/metaphysical these are the rudiments of our known world.. for those who choose to drink the full cup.. we can't all be happy being androids..


cheers

[Mikayeel]

What do computers and math have to do with philosophy or religion?
what are we comparing here and for what purpose?.. you might as well liken a banana peel to horse linements!
I think anyone who reads hamada's posts can safely conclude that all he wants to state, is whether or not science is self correcting, it doesn't provide all the answers, nor has it or ever will be an device to measure things that simply can't be subjected to scientific measure.

Yesterday I had a dream about a lady on 41st street making crème brûlée for her friend on 132, I was a spectator in the dream and didn't know either party, all I kept thinking while watching one heat the sugar on top is, isn't 132 part of spanish harlem?...
Please tell me how it is that you can apply scientific measure to something I saw happen yesterday in a dream? what would it translate to? a nerve firng across a synapse? well how would that be different from a nerve firing across a synapse in a dream that my door man had? one that Bush had one that sarkozy had? or are you to deny that dreams happen and take a life all their own because they are simply non-scientifc? While at it, won't you apply scientific measure to hopes, aspirations, pain.. aren't they all things that we can understand and share universally as part of our being?
science is science and religion is religion. If they were one in the same they would go by the same name.. life dependent on just one field would cease, just like a tree without sunshine, branches or water.. each facet conjoins to give us the general atmosphere, the full flavor of life.. land/water.. black/white science/philosophy art/math physical/metaphysical these are the rudiments of our known world.. for those who choose to drink the full cup.. we can't all be happy being androids..

cheers

you are right, science is science and religion is religion no doubt!, but what i am trying to get out of this thread is..., since you think religion is obvs i think its obvs, how would an atheist describe the religion, the missing gaps which he has.. because he follows no religion(which for me and u is common sense).. since correct me if i am wrong, most atheist believe science is the cause of everything right?( sorry for my poor grammatical use, as i am still learning english)

[جوري]

Don't worry about your English, practicing on forums is a good way to learn insha'Allah..

I wouldn't bother being too concerned with atheists, unless you have a couple of hours to kill with 'quasi-intellects'? You'll just trip the light fantastic and by the end of the evening still come up empty.. best to cut your losses and part ways amicably for never the twain shall meet..
I often find that people enjoy their delusions, and it is nobody's business to smack them out of it..

:w:

[Isambard]

thank you for proving that science is a GREAT GREAT gift!, its absolutly amazing!, but still science is not THE answer as i stated before in this thread, science cant be the answer because science it self is not perfect, science cant create things!, science has no value WE PUT THE VALUE IN!. peace!

I guess creation too would have to be defined as Im sure youll agree computers arn't exactly a work of nature. Same with televisions and drugs etc.

[ranma1/2]

..., but still science is not THE answer as i stated before in this thread, science cant be the answer because science it self is not perfect, ....

so what is THE queston. And what is THE answer?

42?

[Mikayeel]

the question is of how we came into existence(science believe we came from nothing but as we all know from nothing u get nothing!) THE ANSWER is the part that explain how we got into existence.

[Mikayeel]

And now that we have "PUT THE VALUE IN", it is now valuable.

And the more value we put into it by adding knowledge, the more valuable it will become.

thats correct science indeed is very valuable!, i never said it wasnt, image life without it.........!!

[Mikayeel]

I guess creation too would have to be defined as Im sure youll agree computers arn't exactly a work of nature. Same with televisions and drugs etc.

what are you trying to say? that we are the work of machine?

[ricardo_sousa]

the question is of how we came into existence(science believe we came from nothing but as we all know from nothing u get nothing!) THE ANSWER is the part that explain how we got into existence.

^o)... wrong.

[Isambard]

what are you trying to say? that we are the work of machine?

Umm no...

Im saying the very thing you use to complain and say science has done nothing, is a result of science.

[Mikayeel]

Umm no...

Im saying the very thing you use to complain and say science has done nothing, is a result of science.

correct:)

[Mikayeel]

^o)... wrong.

can you explain how from nothing originate something that lives? use any example u like

[ricardo_sousa]

can you explain how from nothing originate something that lives? use any example u like

I was just answering that science don´t believe "that nothing" originate life. For example, in the evolution theory, "we" came from a "primitive soup".

[Isambard]

I was just answering that science don´t believe "that nothing" originate life. For example, in the evolution theory, "we" came from a "primitive soup".

Thats actually ambiogensis that postulates that. Evolution only explains the process which would have to come after the first organism.

[Mikayeel]

i think this board can be closed now, no one is gaining nothing and its useless,

قُلۡ يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلۡڪَـٰفِرُونَ (١) لَآ أَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُونَ (٢) وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ (٣) وَلَآ أَنَا۟ عَابِدٌ۬ مَّا عَبَدتُّمۡ (٤) وَلَآ أَنتُمۡ عَـٰبِدُونَ مَآ أَعۡبُدُ (٥) لَكُمۡ دِينُكُمۡ وَلِىَ دِينِ (٦)

Say (O Muhammad (SAW) to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar)! (1) "I worship not that which you worship, (2) "Nor will you worship that which I worship. (3) "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping. (4) "Nor will you worship that which I worship. (5) "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)." (6)

[Woodrow]

Agreed.

:threadclo: