Taoist statue deemed “offensive” to Islam

[Uthman]

After local authorities approved Mazu statue two years ago, state government halts construction of the goddess of the sea. In July state mufti declared the statue was “offensive” because too close to a mosque.

Political opposition and Chinese community protest. The incident is the latest in a string of cases that threaten inter-faith harmony.

Kuala Lumpur (AsiaNews/Agencies) – The construction of the world’s tallest Taoist Goddess of the Sea statue has set off the latest row over religious freedom in Malaysia. The 36-metre (108-foot) statue of Mazu, known as Tin Hau in Hong Kong, should be erected in the fishing village of Kudat on Borneo Island. So far only the platform has been set; the statue itself is waiting some 200 km away in the port town of Kota Kinabalu. Local authorities had approved construction in December 2005 but Sabah state authorities stopped construction saying that the statue was “offensive to Muslim sensitivities.”

Opposition leader Lim Kit Siang, who heads the Chinese-based Democratic Action Party, warned that if the row was not resolved it could hurt multiracial and inter-faith harmony in the hitherto tolerant Malaysia.

“The insensitive controversy objecting to the building of the Mazu statue is created by a small group of Muslims with ulterior political objectives, which setS a dangerous precedent in undermining inter-religious goodwill in Malaysia,” he said.

“All we want is for Mazu Goddess to protect us when we are at sea and our Muslim countrymen have nothing against,” said a local fisherman.

After the state government halted construction Sabah’s mufti issued a fatwa saying the statue was “offensive to Islam” because it was too close to a mosque.

Sabah’s deputy chief minister Chong Kah Kiat, an ethnic Chinese, resigned in protest and in early December took legal action challenging the order to stop construction.

About 60 percent of Malaysia’s 27 million people are ethnic Malay Muslims; 25 per cent are Chinese and 10 per cent, Indians, mostly Hindu or Christian.

Malaysian commentators and minority leaders have sounded the alarm over the growing ‘Islamisation’ of the country and the increasing polarisation of the three main ethnic communities, which mix much less than in the past.

In recent weeks there have been other controversies, including a ban issued by the Ministry of Internal Security on the use of the word ‘Allah’ for God by the Herald, a Catholic weekly.

Catholics and Protestants have also had their right to build places of worship severely restricted.

Source

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

“All we want is for Mazu Goddess to protect us when we are at sea and our Muslim countrymen have nothing against,” said a local fisherman.

And when harm touches you upon the sea, those that you call upon besides Him vanish from you except Him (Allah Alone). But when He brings you safely to land, you turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!
al-Isra 67

[ricardo_sousa]

Malaysia is not going in a good direction... "polarize" communities in the country is not very smart...

[Amadeus85]

Malaysia is not going in a good direction... "polarize" communities in the country is not very smart...

It depends for whom. If i was a muslim i would think different.

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[Jayda]

it is their country...

[Amadeus85]

it is their country...

Thats quite right. They are majority.

[Amadeus85]

If i was a muslim i'd just round up a lynch mob and kill all the taoists.

It would be criminals then, not muslims.

[Whatsthepoint]

it is their country...

...which considers itself free and multireligious...

Anyway, the article doesn't say the location has a special meaning for the taoists, so I guess they could build it some palce else. If they decide to do so, the Malaysian government ought to pay the all the additional expenses caused by this sham.

[Woodrow]

If i was a muslim i'd just round up a lynch mob and kill all the taoists.

As was already said, if a person did such, most of us would not consider him to be Muslim.

[Jayda]

Thats quite right. They are majority.

well... that's not really what i meant. malaysia is more than just borders with some people living between them... it is also a culture. their culture is traditionally asian, religiously diverse but predominantly muslim... and their ethics and laws are traditionally based off of islam.

[snakelegs]

this says it all

Muslims with ulterior political objectives

[NoName55]

If i was a muslim i'd just round up a lynch mob and kill all the taoists.

how did you escape from hades?

[ricardo_sousa]

if you see the Muslims in Malaysia are about 60% of the population...but 40% is a large "non-Muslim" community. Measures against non-Muslims communities will bring them together and the country can be half.half divided.

[جوري]

how did you escape from hades?

Rofl akhi, that was very funny..
you offered me my first chuckle for the day
Jazaka Allah khyran

:w:

[syilla]

funny...

why the big hindu statue in batu caves doesn't offend anyone.

grrr....

[north_malaysian]

We have a very tall Goddess Kwan Yin statue in Penang.... No Muslims were offended.

[Jayda]

hola,

given, i'm a 'catholic extremist' if such a thing ever existed, i don't believe that it is wise or right to dishonor God by allowing people to build their idols, in order to please men... whose memories and affections are subject to the erosion of time. the commandments of God must always come before public opinion, i applaud the muslims from this article for putting the first commandment before outside perceptions.

que Dios te bendiga

[wilberhum]

hola,

given, i'm a 'catholic extremist' if such a thing ever existed, i don't believe that it is wise or right to dishonor God by allowing people to build their idols, in order to please men... whose memories and affections are subject to the erosion of time. the commandments of God must always come before public opinion, i applaud the muslims from this article for putting the first commandment before outside perceptions.

que Dios te bendiga

Ya, I think there is such a thing as a Catholic extremists and I think you are one of them.

Anyone who in effect says "my god is right and your god offends my god so you have no right honor your god" is not only an extremists but also totally intolerant of other people's beliefs and feelings.

[snakelegs]

hola,

given, i'm a 'catholic extremist' if such a thing ever existed, i don't believe that it is wise or right to dishonor God by allowing people to build their idols, in order to please men... whose memories and affections are subject to the erosion of time. the commandments of God must always come before public opinion, i applaud the muslims from this article for putting the first commandment before outside perceptions.

que Dios te bendiga

i disagree. malaysia has a history of tolerance. i think the people behind this are wanting to cause division for their own political aims.

[Jayda]

Ya, I think there is such a thing as a Catholic extremists and I think you are one of them.

Anyone who in effect says "my god is right and your god offends my god so you have no right honor your god" is not only an extremists but also totally intolerant of other people's beliefs and feelings.

hola,

it is not me who is intolerant... it is my God who is intolerant of other peoples' 'gods.' what God says is good... and the first thing He says to us is that He is God, and there are none like Him. i live to serve God, not to serve man... men do not know what they want or what is good for them... their creator knows what they need and what is best for them, that is why i do what i'm told.

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

i disagree. malaysia has a history of tolerance. i think the people behind this are wanting to cause division for their own political aims.

hola,

i don't think tolerance means anything... it's a secular moral with a shifting definition. it is inconsistent and often completely incoherent... for example... a man having sex with a child is pedophilia under our laws... yet the speaker of the house marching (nancy pelosi) with people who champion men sleeping with children (naambl) is tolerance. why?

Catholics have our own equivalent value, caritas. no islamic system of government on earth... past or present... exemplifies caritas. i'd be insulted if it did! Catholics have yet to live by it. but according to said principle, above all is God, and there is no room for the worship of non existent 'gods'

que Dios te bendiga

[wilberhum]

hola,

it is not me who is intolerant... it is my God who is intolerant of other peoples' 'gods.' what God says is good... and the first thing He says to us is that He is God, and there are none like Him. i live to serve God, not to serve man... men do not know what they want or what is good for them... their creator knows what they need and what is best for them, that is why i do what i'm told.

que Dios te bendiga

An intolerant god is just an excuse for your intolerance.

The same excuse OBL uses.

[NoName55]

i disagree. malaysia has a history of tolerance. i think the people behind this are wanting to cause division for their own political aims.

why can they not keep their statues inside their places of worship instead of in-your-face countrywide alfresco temples?

[Jayda]

An intolerant god is just an excuse for your intolerance.

The same excuse OBL uses.

obeying the first commandment is not a sin according to God... although perhaps it is a social sin. i don't pretend to be a better person than OBL, we are told that there is not one good person... we have all sinned and are not worthy. if there is hope for me and the sins i've committed then there is hope for OBL.

[NoName55]

obeying the first commandment is not a sin according to God..

apparently that can be interpreted according to your whims since you contradict it by worshiping a woman and various other dead priests and popes (and make statues/idols of them)!

[Jayda]

apparently that can be interpreted according to your whims since you contradict it by worshiping a women and various other dead priests and popes (and make statues/idols of them)!

if worship is a word which here means obeying the authorities God has placed in front of me then by all means include worship of the prophets, judges and kings. i obey the Word of God, wherever it is to be found.

[Intisar]

no, i would not insult the mother and servants of God based upon the word of a false prophet.

Excuse me? False prophet? What are you trying to insinuate?

[Jayda]

Excuse me? False prophet? What are you trying to insinuate?

rather than you and noname demanding that i respond to outrageous and unprovoked blasphemous accusations against my religion, why don't you just pick and choose which posts i make are allowed to appear on the thread? you are a moderator... decide.

my religious designation says Catholic doesn't it? i prefer to not make it an issue unless forced to... yet for some reason (and usually out of the blue) my Church and Lord are insulted in the most grevious ways from the people who tell me we worship the same God. consider this thread... i applauded muslims for upholding the first commandment, and for this i am told my saints and the Blessed Virgin are idols based upon the word of a man whom my religious designation clearly indicates is not considered a prophet. i am not going to apostacize myself to please you... why call yourselves our friends if you don't mean it?

[جوري]

Well what would you call this if not idols?

idol
1-A material effigy that is worshipped
2-Someone who is adored blindly and excessively!

Why is it an idol when it is a taoist statue but not a Jesus or mary statue?

that would be hypocrisy...

cheers

[Intisar]

my religious designation says Catholic doesn't it? i prefer to not make it an issue unless forced to... yet for some reason (and usually out of the blue) my Church and Lord are insulted in the most grevious ways from the people who tell me we worship the same God.

And that's where your mistaken, we worship Allaah, the one and only God where you make him into three. You haven't explained who the ''false prophet'' you were alluding to was, care to do so?

[Jayda]

Well what would you call this if not idols?

idol
1-A material effigy that is worshipped
2-Someone who is adored blindly and excessively!

Why is it an idol when it is a taoist statue but not a Jesus or mary statue?

that would be hypocrisy...

cheers

that's an excellent question.

we call them focal points for prayer 'dulia' the purpose of which is to remind us of the specific reason God has used a Saint or the Blessed Virgin to secure His purposes. the physical stimulus of a sight provides us with the correct mindframe for why we are praying. consider the crucifix, we believe God died for our sins... by looking at a crucifix with Jesus in pain we understand how great our sins are, how unworthy we are before God, and how fortunate we are to have a God that loves us so much He would take on our rightful punishment in our place.

according to Catholic theology it would be sinful to look at that same crucifix and worship it because it is made out of the choiciest oak or really nice marble.

que Dios te bendiga

[snakelegs]

hola,

i don't think tolerance means anything... it's a secular moral with a shifting definition. it is inconsistent and often completely incoherent... for example... a man having sex with a child is pedophilia under our laws... yet the speaker of the house marching (nancy pelosi) with people who champion men sleeping with children (naambl) is tolerance. why?

Catholics have our own equivalent value, caritas. no islamic system of government on earth... past or present... exemplifies caritas. i'd be insulted if it did! Catholics have yet to live by it. but according to said principle, above all is God, and there is no room for the worship of non existent 'gods'

que Dios te bendiga

i don't know what caritas is but you are getting too abstract here. malaysia has a lot of different religions who have been living peacefully together up until fairly recently. all i said was that i think this controversy has been whipped up for a political agenda to cause division and disharmony.
personally, i would hate to be forced to look at a huge statue of any kind - even a magnificent serpent!

[snakelegs]

why can they not keep their statues inside their places of worship instead of in-your-face countrywide alfresco temples?

yes - this would be much more preferable.

[Jayda]

[/B]

And that's where your mistaken, we worship Allaah, the one and only God where you make him into three. You haven't explained who the ''false prophet'' you were alluding to was, care to do so?

no... you worship Allah and we worship nothing only when you wish to feel superior... when, however, you want to lend legitimacy to islam or to proselytize to us then Allah and God/Dios are one and the same. the Catholic Church teaches you pray to the God of Abraham, and thus that is what i believe, if you care to know.

regarding your second question... this is precisely what i'm talking about... i have a nice civilized discussion and then one of you comes along and insults my religion and challenges me to declare my faith against yours. i do so and i am accused of blasphemy and insulting you. in my mind that's uncivilized... but you have different ways.

so in answer to your question, mohamed is not a prophet from God, consequently i do not adhere to his teachings regarding the Blessed Virgin or the Servants of God as NoName wishes me to.

[snakelegs]

that's an excellent question.

we call them focal points for prayer 'dulia' the purpose of which is to remind us of the specific reason God has used a Saint or the Blessed Virgin to secure His purposes. the physical stimulus of a sight provides us with the correct mindframe for why we are praying. consider the crucifix, we believe God died for our sins... by looking at a crucifix with Jesus in pain we understand how great our sins are, how unworthy we are before God, and how fortunate we are to have a God that loves us so much He would take on our rightful punishment in our place.

according to Catholic theology it would be sinful to look at that same crucifix and worship it because it is made out of the choiciest oak or really nice marble.

que Dios te bendiga

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

[Jayda]

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

no.

whereas our art and prayers are meant to focus our prayers toward the glorious things the God of Abraham has accomplsihed through His servants, buddhists, hindus etc have created art to pray as if the art itself had life and was deified... this is a god beside God.

do not misunderstand me, under no circumstances do i think it is okay to hurt people like this... i think the best we can do is say 'no' firmly, before being rolled over by cranes, plows and tractors... since man is rather insistent on worshipping things of his own creation.

que Dios te bendiga

[Intisar]

no... you worship Allah and we worship nothing only when you wish to feel superior... when, however, you want to lend legitimacy to islam or to proselytize to us then Allah and God/Dios are one and the same. the Catholic Church teaches you pray to the God of Abraham, and thus that is what i believe, if you care to know.

regarding your second question... this is precisely what i'm talking about... i have a nice civilized discussion and then one of you comes along and insults my religion and challenges me to declare my faith against yours. i do so and i am accused of blasphemy and insulting you. in my mind that's uncivilized... but you have different ways.

so in answer to your question, mohamed is not a prophet from God, consequently i do not adhere to his teachings regarding the Blessed Virgin or the Servants of God as NoName wishes me to.

You seem a bit hostile. You believe that Muhammad (SAWS) is not a Prophet of God or Allaah, alright fair enough, but therein lies the difference between my religion and yours. We believe that God is One, and doesn't need to have human attributes because he is superior to his creations. Let's not make this a religious debate/discussion, but you make God three therefore you believe not in monotheism but polytheism. That's just how I see it, take it or leave it. You find what he said insulting, why did you have to say something equally insulting, if not more, back to him? Insults are not needed here, I'm sure we're all civilized humans here and can have a normal civilized discussion. I think you need to let your guard down and stop being so hostile towards others; you labelled yourself a ''Catholic extremist'' all on your own accord, was that really necessary?

I don't see a difference between the idols that Hindus or even the pagan Arabs of the Prophet's (SAWS) time worship and your statues of the Virgin Mary, that's just how I feel; barnone.

[snakelegs]

no.

whereas our art and prayers are meant to focus our prayers toward the glorious things the God of Abraham has accomplsihed through His servants, buddhists, hindus etc have created art to pray as if the art itself had life and was deified... this is a god beside God.

do not misunderstand me, under no circumstances do i think it is okay to hurt people like this... i think the best we can do is say 'no' firmly, before being rolled over by cranes, plows and tractors... since man is rather insistent on worshipping things of his own creation.

que Dios te bendiga

how do you know???? i have heard hindus say the exact same thing you have said about the statues of their gods - it is only a focal point, etc etc. to an outsider when they pray before their gods, it looks the same to me as when you pray before yours.
you are the one who brought your religion in to this discussion.
btw, what is this "caritas" that only catholicism has?

[NoName55]

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

touché!

edit:caritas Internationalis is a "confederation of 162 Catholic relief, development and social service organizations" operating in over 200 countries and territories worldwide.

[جوري]

that's an excellent question.

we call them focal points for prayer 'dulia' the purpose of which is to remind us of the specific reason God has used a Saint or the Blessed Virgin to secure His purposes. the physical stimulus of a sight provides us with the correct mindframe for why we are praying. consider the crucifix, we believe God died for our sins... by looking at a crucifix with Jesus in pain we understand how great our sins are, how unworthy we are before God, and how fortunate we are to have a God that loves us so much He would take on our rightful punishment in our place.

according to Catholic theology it would be sinful to look at that same crucifix and worship it because it is made out of the choiciest oak or really nice marble.

que Dios te bendiga

I don't understand how God used saints or in which context made a request for catholics to use them?..
I would personally find it a distraction to have so many different statues of Jesus.. black, white, hispanic, how can that set one in the right frame of mind?.. the statues don't make me feel fortune, love/ peace and I have no idea what 'rightful punishment in our place' means.. seems like a cop out for not wanting to take responsibility for our sins..

I'd not pick so much, except it seemed appropriate considering the circumstance.. I am sure the toaists can as well justify their statues?.. maybe their statues signify Jesus? Why should Jesus look like kid rock? Why can't he look malaysian?


peace!

[Jayda]

You seem a bit hostile. You believe that Muhammad (SAWS) is not a Prophet of God or Allaah, alright fair enough, but therein lies the difference between my religion and yours. We believe that God is One, and doesn't need to have human attributes because he is superior to his creations. Let's not make this a religious debate/discussion, but you make God three therefore you believe not in monotheism but polytheism. That's just how I see it, take it or leave it. You find what he said insulting, why did you have to say something equally insulting, if not more, back to him? Insults are not needed here, I'm sure we're all civilized humans here and can have a normal civilized discussion. I think you need to let your guard down and stop being so hostile towards others; you labelled yourself a ''Catholic extremist'' all on your own accord, was that really necessary?

if i seem hostile it is because a page ago, when i tried to express my admiration of muslims adhering to the first commandment despite popular opinion against it, i was subjected to a random blasphemous attack that requested me to respond under the assumption i would cave on my catholic beliefs because it would have been against forum rules to do otherwise. such was the smuggery of the poster...

you say insults are not needed here... but on a day to day basis i find myself ritually insulted (the last page notwithstanding), despite the fact i've been nothing but inquisitive and polite since i first arrived.

I don't see a difference between the idols that Hindus or even the pagan Arabs of the Prophet's (SAWS) time and your statues of the Virgin Mary, that's just how I feel; barnone.

i know, i don't see the difference between mohamed and joseph smith, that's blasphemous attack from a muslim poster. if you keep your fellow muslims in line there is no need for us to remind ourselves that we believe extremely different things.

it would behoove you to remember that despite whatever rules you have here, i only care about the judgment of God. i'm not going to respond 'well i felt peer pressure' should He ask me why i denied Him when directly challenged by a muslim guy on a forum when i was 22. and yea, He's that picky.

que Dios te bendiga

[wilberhum]

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

I don't think they are offended.

Generally I find Buddhists and Hindus much more tolerant than most religions. :thumbs_up

[Jayda]

how do you know???? i have heard hindus say the exact same thing you have said about the statues of their gods - it is only a focal point, etc etc. to an outsider when they pray before their gods, it looks the same to me as when you pray before yours.
you are the one who brought your religion in to this discussion.
btw, what is this "caritas" that only catholicism has?

okay... and if that is what the hindus believe then that is what they believe. it is still blasphemy as it is directed against a god other than God. snakelegs, i know it doesn't matter to you since you are agnostic, but i tend to find agnostics are a little better at thinking (from a secular standpoint) objectively. do you really think it is reasonable for you to impose your agnostic belief that its one God by many different names on me when you know full well that has no place in Christian theology?

and ultimately, what is the point? i lend vocal support to not building what i consider to be an idol... while at the same time arguing against taking measures that physically harm people... just dismiss me as superstitious and put your energy into something more worthwhile :)

[جوري]

neither Buddhism nor hinduism qualify as religions, they are philosophical beliefs and cultural practices, There is no room for comparison.. aside from that a little google search can yield terrorists out of any group...


cheers

[snakelegs]

it's not the point whether hindus or buddhists are offended. jayda says that when she prays before her statues, it is only a focal point for prayer and i've heard hindus say the same.
to the observer, it looks identical.
i think we are in the midst of a battle of idol one-up-manship here. :D

[caroline]

Anyone who in effect says "my god is right and your god offends my god so you have no right honor your god" is not only an extremists but also totally intolerant of other people's beliefs and feelings.

Well, I never thought this day would come Wilberhum, but I actually AGREE with you.

:enough!:

[Jayda]

I don't understand how God used saints or in which context made a request for catholics to use them?..
I would personally find it a distraction to have so many different statues of Jesus.. black, white, hispanic, how can that set one in the right frame of mind?.. the statues don't make me feel fortune, love/ peace and I have no idea what 'rightful punishment in our place' means.. seems like a cop out for not wanting to take responsibility for our sins..

I'd not pick so much, except it seemed appropriate considering the circumstance.. I am sure the toaists can as well justify their statues?.. maybe their statues signify Jesus? Why should Jesus look like kid rock? Why can't he look malaysian?


peace!

hola,

Jesus can look like whomever the practitioner wishes to make Him look like... in western art he is depicted as a greek guy, in asian art as an asian, in african (especially ethiopian icons) He is depicted as a black guy. generally speaking Christians can recognize Him in art NOT by his physical appearance but rather by the context clues... a halo (signifying holyness), stigmata (signifying the crucifixion) and a lamb, somewhere (signifying the covenant). all focus our prayers on specific aspects of Jesus' life, ministry and significance...

God uses saints, prophets and apostles as servants or better yet like pawns on a chess board... through them (and for reasons not always known to us) He accomplishes great things... as signs and as directions for us. consider St. David, the king of Israel... God used Him to consolidate a kingdom and secure His covenant... consider then there is the example of St. Francis who literally gave up all his wealth to live among the poor, and who personally intervened in the crusades to end the bloodshed.

these are miraculous things... who could possibly deny that giving up all your wealth to help the poor isn't an immortal issue... there will still be wealth and poverty in the future... and forever there will be the glorious accomplishment of St. Francis to demonstrate that through God we CAN disattach ourselves from worldly things and follow His commandments. that is the only reason saints are saints (sanctified), because of what God has used them for...


que Dios te bendiga

[snakelegs]

okay... and if that is what the hindus believe then that is what they believe. it is still blasphemy as it is directed against a god other than God. snakelegs, i know it doesn't matter to you since you are agnostic, but i tend to find agnostics are a little better at thinking (from a secular standpoint) objectively. do you really think it is reasonable for you to impose your agnostic belief that its one God by many different names on me when you know full well that has no place in Christian theology?

and ultimately, what is the point? i lend vocal support to not building what i consider to be an idol... while at the same time arguing against taking measures that physically harm people... just dismiss me as superstitious and put your energy into something more worthwhile :)

did i say the gods hindus and buddhists is the same as the one god?
i am not trying to oppose my beliefs on anybody.
what i am saying is that your defense about praying before statues is the same one they will use - it is only a focal point for prayer.
not being catholic, hindu or buddhist - i do not know what is in their hearts - i only see it from the outside and it looks the same.

[Intisar]

if i seem hostile it is because a page ago, when i tried to express my admiration of muslims adhering to the first commandment despite popular opinion against it, i was subjected to a random blasphemous attack that requested me to respond under the assumption i would cave on my catholic beliefs because it would have been against forum rules to do otherwise. such was the smuggery of the poster...

you say insults are not needed here... but on a day to day basis i find myself ritually insulted (the last page notwithstanding), despite the fact i've been nothing but inquisitive and polite since i first arrived.



i know, i don't see the difference between mohamed and joseph smith, that's blasphemous attack from a muslim poster. if you keep your fellow muslims in line there is no need for us to remind ourselves that we believe extremely different things.

it would behoove you to remember that despite whatever rules you have here, i only care about the judgment of God. i'm not going to respond 'well i felt peer pressure' should He ask me why i denied Him when directly challenged by a muslim guy on a forum when i was 22. and yea, He's that picky.

que Dios te bendiga

If I keep my fellow Muslims ''in line'', lol that's funny you say that. Hey, let me remind you that this is islamic-board, I'm assuming you're able to read of course. I'm a mod of this section, and it's hard to keep up with everything that everyone says, so it'd do me a big service if you found an offensive post and PMed it to me instead of making an equally blasphemous remark.

I assume we're all adults here, well I'm almost 18 but that's besides the point, and for that reason we should act in a civilized manner instead of veering off topic.

PS. Any Muslim who believes in the Last Day and the judgment (or severe punishment) of Allaah would know that everything they do or say will be held to account.

Continue with the topic at hand, but If I find that this thread no longer serves it's purpose then it will be subject to closure. Fair enough?

Peace.

[Jayda]

it's not the point whether hindus or buddhists are offended. jayda says that when she prays before her statues, it is only a focal point for prayer and i've heard hindus say the same.
to the observer, it looks identical.
i think we are in the midst of a battle of idol one-up-manship here. :D

i assure you, when i am focused in my prayers, i am thinking about the God of Abraham... not thinking about Abraham, not thinking about michaelangelo... i am thinking about the God.

i am also not thinking about Vishnu, and that is the biggest difference you don't seem to understand. Vishnu is not the same as God, it is a cultural fairy tale. God is a specific entity that spoke to specific people and said specific people and yes, even showed up just to prove being Human and following His commandments at the same time IS possible.

different people

[caroline]

Well what would you call this if not idols?

Looks like a statue to me.
I don't think people worship those statues. I think they worship the people whose image they symbolize.

2-Someone who is adored blindly and excessively!

hmmm... :X

[جوري]

if i seem hostile it is because a page ago, when i tried to express my admiration of muslims adhering to the first commandment despite popular opinion against it, i was subjected to a random blasphemous attack that requested me to respond under the assumption i would cave on my catholic beliefs because it would have been against forum rules to do otherwise. such was the smuggery of the poster...

What is 'smuggery' .. it is true Muslims keep the first commandment, I can't say that christians do though, I think there is room to point that out, considering catholicism is heavily immersed in idol worship, and not from an Islamic point of view, even protestants would say the same..surely all the velvet brocade, pretty candles and the sainthood of various lay men and women led in part to the reformation?

you say insults are not needed here... but on a day to day basis i find myself ritually insulted (the last page notwithstanding), despite the fact i've been nothing but inquisitive and polite since i first arrived.

And it is very christian like of you to call prophet Mohammed PBUH a false prophet?

i know, i don't see the difference between mohamed and joseph smith, that's blasphemous attack from a muslim poster. if you keep your fellow muslims in line there is no need for us to remind ourselves that we believe extremely different things.

I don't see much difference between Jesus and kid rock, at least in his last mug shot, why is it so bothersome for Toasists to carve up some statues for worship, I mean how do you reconcile the difference by catholic standards? an idol is an idol, does it matter what name you slap on it?

it would behoove you to remember that despite whatever rules you have here, i only care about the judgment of God. i'm not going to respond 'well i felt peer pressure' should He ask me why i denied Him when directly challenged by a muslim guy on a forum when i was 22. and yea, He's that picky.

que Dios te bendiga

I'll have to believe that you are here on your own accord, haven't seen anyone pound into you monotheistic worship? by the end of the day you'll still be a believer in a pantheon of God.. It is a focal point nor has been of anyone on thos forum to convert you or 'peer pressure' you!

cheers

[caroline]

[/B]

And that's where your mistaken, we worship Allaah, the one and only God where you make him into three. You haven't explained who the ''false prophet'' you were alluding to was, care to do so?

Sister Ameena, pardon me for saying so, but I feel your statement was baiting. I do believe it is against forum rules to say negative things about the Prophet -- am I wrong about that? Because if it is, then your question would be unfair because Jayda couldn't honestly answer and stay within the forum guidelines.

[Jayda]

If I keep my fellow Muslims ''in line'', lol that's funny you say that. Hey, let me remind you that this is islamic-board, I'm assuming you're able to read of course. I'm a mod of this section, and it's hard to keep up with everything that everyone says, so it'd do me a big service if you found an offensive post and PMed it to me instead of making an equally blasphemous remark.

I assume we're all adults here, well I'm almost 18 but that's besides the point, and for that reason we should act in a civilized manner instead of veering off topic.

PS. Any Muslim who believes in the Last Day and the judgment (or severe punishment) of Allaah would know that everything they do or say will be held to account.

Continue with the topic at hand, but If I find that this thread no longer serves it's purpose then it will be subject to closure. Fair enough?

Peace.

si, it is islamic board. but my questions about islam are not so important that i'm willing to deny my religious beliefs whenever you or any other muslim demands satisfaction in abuse of your invitation to me to post here. think about your responsibilities as a host before your responsibilities as a moderator.

but as i said before, you are the mod... if you disagree with something delete it. don't follow in NoName's footsteps by demanding that i give you (what you consider) blasphemous responses. it's extemely unfair of you guys to throw islamic theology at me to insult christianity and NOT expect me to respond truthfully. if i were a muslim my icon would reflect that, it does not.

[snakelegs]

i assure you, when i am focused in my prayers, i am thinking about the God of Abraham... not thinking about Abraham, not thinking about michaelangelo... i am thinking about the God.

i am also not thinking about Vishnu, and that is the biggest difference you don't seem to understand. Vishnu is not the same as God, it is a cultural fairy tale. God is a specific entity that spoke to specific people and said specific people and yes, even showed up just to prove being Human and following His commandments at the same time IS possible.

different people

yes, you are correct. the hindu is not praying to the God of abraham.
i thought we were discussing statues. i would find a great big statue of mary or jesus the same as a big ole buddha, yes.

[Jayda]

What is 'smuggery' .. it is true Muslims keep the first commandment, I can't say that christians do though, I think there is room to point that out, considering catholicism is heavily immersed in idol worship, and not from an Islamic point of view, even protestants would say the same..surely all the velvet brocade, pretty candles and the sainthood of various lay men and women led in part to the reformation?

protestants are outside the apostolic tradition and in a state of schism... i don't follow them.

And it is very christian like of you to call prophet Mohammed PBUH a false prophet?

of course, if i believed him to be a prophet i would be a muslim right? when i am so rudely and abruptly (as noname has done) demanded to acquisce to islamic theology, i respond by explaining why i don't believe what you believe.

when i am flat out ASKED what i believe (as sister ameena has done) i respond truthfully what i believe.

either way, my intention is not to insult, it is to remain faithful to my Lord and to be truthful.

I don't see much difference between Jesus and kid rock, at least in his last mug shot, why is it so bothersome for Toasists to carve up some statues for worship, I mean how do you reconcile the difference by catholic standards? an idol is an idol, does it matter what name you slap on it?

i've already explained the difference... if you believe it is okay for the taoists to build statues of idols (per your post) that is your business... obviously my original encouragement toward the muslims who do NOT break the first commandment wouldn't apply to you.

I'll have to believe that you are here on your own accord, haven't seen anyone pound into you monotheistic worship? by the end of the day you'll still be a believer in a pantheon of God.. It is a focal point nor has been of anyone on thos forum to convert you or 'peer pressure' you!

cheers

i was invited by a muslim poster (skillganon) to ask questions about islam because i was curious... yet i find most of my time is spent being insulted and having my religion misrepresented. i'm fairly convinced at this point islam cannot justify itself without tearing down christianity... but as always i invite you to show me otherwise. i believe in the One God, what you think about that isn't consequential, God is my judge and i trust Him before all.

que Dios te bendiga

[NoName55]

What is 'smuggery

corruption of smugness; an excessive feeling of self-satisfaction

Sister Ameena, pardon me for saying so, but I feel your statement was baiting. I do believe it is against forum rules to say negative things about the Prophet -- am I wrong about that? Because if it is, then your question would be unfair because Jayda couldn't honestly answer and stay within the forum guidelines.

I thought leopard had changed spots or was it snake that changed skin and turned out it was still a snake?a thorn by any other name is still prickly! ah well enough messed up metaphors lest I want to loose this account too.

[جوري]

hola,

Jesus can look like whomever the practitioner wishes to make Him look like... in western art he is depicted as a greek guy, in asian art as an asian, in african (especially ethiopian icons) He is depicted as a black guy. generally speaking Christians can recognize Him in art NOT by his physical appearance but rather by the context clues... a halo (signifying holyness), stigmata (signifying the crucifixion) and a lamb, somewhere (signifying the covenant). all focus our prayers on specific aspects of Jesus' life, ministry and significance...

that is called anthropomorphism, it doesn't signify a covenant, it signifies idol worship to the naked eye!

God uses saints, prophets and apostles as servants or better yet like pawns on a chess board... through them (and for reasons not always known to us) He accomplishes great things... as signs and as directions for us. consider St. David, the king of Israel... God used Him to consolidate a kingdom and secure His covenant... consider then there is the example of St. Francis who literally gave up all his wealth to live among the poor, and who personally intervened in the crusades to end the bloodshed.

Sounds like a regular joe with a good heart, have seen people like that daily, no reason to turn them into dieties or an object of aodration and worship.. generally that is how human beings have to be (good), but it doesn't translate to exceptional holiness!

these are miraculous things... who could possibly deny that giving up all your wealth to help the poor isn't an immortal issue

Some doctor was on oprah a couple of months ago he gave up all his wealth to help people, and quit his job to do more for his community, no I don't classify it as a miracle!

... there will still be wealth and poverty in the future... and forever there will be the glorious accomplishment of St. Francis to demonstrate that through God we CAN disattach ourselves from worldly things and follow His commandments.

Giving up worldly pleasures for God wasn't adequately demonstrated through francis, marlena roberts was just as good, why don't we make a statue for her as well and worship her?

that is the only reason saints are saints (sanctified), because of what God has used them for...


que Dios te bendiga

It is presumptious to speak on God's behalf don't you think. I see nothing about francis in the bible.. God didn't order the sainthood and canonization of francis in the bible did he?



peace!

[Jayda]

yes, you are correct. the hindu is not praying to the God of abraham.
i thought we were discussing statues. i would find a great big statue of mary or jesus the same as a big ole buddha, yes.

si,

i know... that's what i was trying to say when i pointed out that as an agnostic these differences mean nothing to you... to a christian they are quite important. consider that God destroyed the amalikites despite the fact they were monotheistic. they believed in one God... they called him Baal, he wasn't the God of Abraham and so they were idolaters.

it's an important distinction for us...

que Dios te bendiga

[Intisar]

Sister Ameena, pardon me for saying so, but I feel your statement was baiting. I do believe it is against forum rules to say negative things about the Prophet -- am I wrong about that? Because if it is, then your question would be unfair because Jayda couldn't honestly answer and stay within the forum guidelines.

I was honestly not sure of what ''false prophet'' she was talking about; it could have been Jesus (as) or Muhammad (saw) since they believe that one of them is God and the other is not a prophet or associated with religion at all. I was just trying to get an answer out of her. I didn't delete the remark as you can see, because I want to refer to it later on (inshaa Allaah).

si, it is islamic board. but my questions about islam are not so important that i'm willing to deny my religious beliefs whenever you or any other muslim demands satisfaction in abuse of your invitation to me to post here. think about your responsibilities as a host before your responsibilities as a moderator.

but as i said before, you are the mod... if you disagree with something delete it. don't follow in NoName's footsteps by demanding that i give you (what you consider) blasphemous responses. it's extemely unfair of you guys to throw islamic theology at me to insult christianity and NOT expect me to respond truthfully. if i were a muslim my icon would reflect that, it does not.

Don't get me wrong, we don't force any religious beliefs down people's throats but we respect other beliefs. Is it so hard for other's to do the same?

Like I said before, if you feel someone has said something to hurt you, then PM it to me or any other mod of this section.

Now let's get back on topic.

Peace.

[snakelegs]

I thought leopard had changed spots or was it snake that changed skin and turned out it was still a snake?a thorn by any other name is still prickly! ah well enough messed up metaphors lest I want to loose this account too.

indeed, you best be careful.
especially when speaking of snakes and leopards. ;D

[Jayda]

that is called anthropomorphism, it doesn't signify a covenant, it signifies idol worship to the naked eye!/quote]

if it was anthropomorphism there would be a consistent shape... that's not possible given the information i just told you. one cannot be a white, black, asian greek.

or at least it would be really tricky...

Sounds like a regular joe with a good heart, have seen people like that daily, no reason to turn them into dieties or an object of aodration and worship.. generally that is how human beings have to be (good), but it doesn't translate to exceptional holiness!

nobody has turned them into deities or worshipped them as such

Some doctor was on oprah a couple of months ago he gave up all his wealth to help people, and quit his job to do more for his community, no I don't classify it as a miracle!

Giving up worldly pleasures for God wasn't adequately demonstrated through francis, marlena roberts was just as good, why don't we make a statue for her as well and worship her?

obviously there is more to being a saint than just being a nice person... miracles have also been performed through saints... people have been healed by asking for intercession through a saint and there have been events where people have seen apparitions of saints (specifically mary). there is a supernatural edge to sainthood.

It is presumptious to speak on God's behalf don't you think. I see nothing about francis in the bible.. God didn't order the sainthood and canonization of francis in the bible did he?

i'm not speaking for God, He is more than capable of that Himself. St. Francis would not be in the bible, he was born 1000 years after the Canon was (basically) set.

the Bible is a product of the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit... which also guides the Church. only protestants believe the bible is an object to be worshipped. for Catholics and the true apostolic Churches the bible is half of the equation... the other half is the Church itself... both of which are the continuation of the sacred tradition begun with Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit.

that is why we consider the pronouncements of the Church as equal to the pronouncements of the Bible.

peace!

Pax!

[جوري]

protestants are outside the apostolic tradition and in a state of schism... i don't follow them.

Yes they see you guys as blasphemers too!

of course, if i believed him to be a prophet i would be a muslim right? when i am so rudely and abruptly (as noname has done) demanded to acquisce to islamic theology, i respond by explaining why i don't believe what you believe.

I don't think he was rude, I believe he wanted you to reconcile the difference between your statues and theirs!

when i am flat out ASKED what i believe (as sister ameena has done) i respond truthfully what i believe.

By same token why are you so upset when we call it as we see it? 'idol worship!

either way, my intention is not to insult, it is to remain faithful to my Lord and to be truthful.

great

i've already explained the difference... if you believe it is okay for the taoists to build statues of idols (per your post) that is your business... obviously my original encouragement toward the muslims who do NOT break the first commandment wouldn't apply to you.

No I merely highlight, that catholics break the commandments as well.. I think statues belong in museums not as objects of adoration!

i was invited by a muslim poster (skillganon) to ask questions about islam because i was curious... yet i find most of my time is spent being insulted and having my religion misrepresented. i'm fairly convinced at this point islam cannot justify itself without tearing down christianity... but as always i invite you to show me otherwise. i believe in the One God, what you think about that isn't consequential, God is my judge and i trust Him before all.

que Dios te bendiga

Yup God is the judge, your curiosity I believe isn't something that anyone has hammered into you with the purpose of converting you. and No we couldn't care less what christians do or believe in fact, I am yet to see one site erected by a Muslim to tear into Jesus (p) the way christians do about prophet Mohammed PBUH, which leads me to believe that what you state here is an adequate assessment of your church and christianity in general to make up for its failures.

cheers!

[caroline]

Now back to the topic.

I think demanding that this statue not be erected is trite and contentious. Why would you be OFFENDED by someone else's belief? They are not demanding that you agree with them. They are not offended by the fact that there is a mosque there and isn't a mosque an obvious symbol of a religion they don't believe in? What are we going to do next -- demand all the Christian churches remove the crosses from their steeples and the synogogs remove the star of David? Are we going to demand that there be no symbols of any other belief system at the malls where we shop and demand that the catholic candles be removed from the Latin section of the grocery store?

I think nitpicking and pettiness creates a bad example of whatever religion you represent. And besides that, it's just silly and a waste of time when we could be working to create peace and understanding in a world that is rife with atrocities.

[جوري]

obviously there is more to being a saint than just being a nice person... miracles have also been performed through saints... people have been healed by asking for intercession through a saint and there have been events where people have seen apparitions of saints (specifically mary). there is a supernatural edge to sainthood.

There is no supernatural edge save for superstitious folks who'd rather ignore the laws of nature and true faith in favor of magic and chance!

i'm not speaking for God, He is more than capable of that Himself. St. Francis would not be in the bible, he was born 1000 years after the Canon was (basically) set.

I know and thank you for cementing the fact that you shouldn't in fact speak for God, since he is capable of doing so in his books, he'd have set a clear path.. my special creations need to be canonized, but he didn't!

the Bible is a product of the Church under the direction of the Holy Spirit... which also guides the Church. only protestants believe the bible is an object to be worshipped. for Catholics and the true apostolic Churches the bible is half of the equation... the other half is the Church itself... both of which are the continuation of the sacred tradition begun with Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit.

That is a load of rubbish, since Jesus has asked for none of it, again you assume for him and almost in same breath say he can speak for himself, why is that? just a note I am not sure who God is in thei formula, if we are still to go by the laws of monotheism.. who is Jesus, who is the holy spirit in the scheme of all of this? Why does an all mighty being need all these troops?

that is why we consider the pronouncements of the Church as equal to the pronouncements of the Bible.

Pax!

The rest of the world doesn't, including other christian denominations..


cheers

[Jayda]

I was honestly not sure of what ''false prophet'' she was talking about; it could have been Jesus (as) or Muhammad (as) since they believe that one of them is God and the other is not a prophet or associated with religion at all. I was just trying to get an answer out of her. I didn't delete the remark as you can see, because I want to refer to it later on (inshaa Allaah).

delete it if it offends you, i'd request you do the same with noname's remark... but as you say it is an islamic forum so i should expect to take the hits muslims so graceously bestow upon me.

Don't get me wrong, we don't force any religious beliefs down people's throats but we respect other beliefs. Is it so hard for other's to do the same?

Like I said before, if you feel someone has said something to hurt you, then PM it to me or any other mod of this section.

Now let's get back on topic.

Peace.

of course you don't force religious beliefs on me... i live about 8000 miles away in a rather fairy tale like life where i'm lonely most of the time because my husband is always away. you could no sooner force me to do something than cows would rain from the sky (which might be interesting)

BUT! you can insult me and you can put me in a position where i am asked to attest to my faith... that's precisely what noname and then you, sister ameena, did. i'm not going to say 'oh yes we are idol worshippers' and 'oh yes mohamed is a prophet' to please you and i'm not going to pretend im out of line for speaking the truth.

i appreciate you are doing the best you can as a mod, trainee mod, no less, but if you stand back and evaluate this thread i think you can make life easy on yourself by doing a few things... 1. delete the offending remarks from noname (if you are feeling merciful) and from myself (if you really want to end continued muslim offense) 2. evaluate whether this off topic conversation is really a bad thing... we are all speaking rather frankly but it's stimulating conversation don't you think? and it is on topic... we are talking about idols and whether i am justified in condemning toaism. 3. put a little faith in us... despite the fact noname hates me and apparentely wants me banned, there really aren't any agendas here... we're perfectly capable of civilized conversation and... frankly... this is pretty civilized for an internet forum.

[snakelegs]

si,

i know... that's what i was trying to say when i pointed out that as an agnostic these differences mean nothing to you... to a christian they are quite important. consider that God destroyed the amalikites despite the fact they were monotheistic. they believed in one God... they called him Baal, he wasn't the God of Abraham and so they were idolaters.

it's an important distinction for us...

que Dios te bendiga

ok - point taken. still, to me the statues are the same.

[Jayda]

There is no supernatural edge save for superstitious folks who'd rather ignore the laws of nature and true faith in favor of magic and chance!

no, we are talking about documented and investigated miracles... 'there is more in heaven and earth horatio' and all that... this is not the same as the superstition of local medieval peasants.

I know and thank you for cementing the fact that you shouldn't in fact speak for God, since he is capable of doing so in his books, he'd have set a clear path.. my special creations need to be canonized, but he didn't!

i'm confused about what you mean concerning that last sentence... could you clarify please?

That is a load of rubbish, since Jesus has asked for none of it, again you assume for him and almost in same breath say he can speak for himself, why is that? just a note I am not sure who God is in thei formula, if we are still to go by the laws of monotheism.. who is Jesus, who is the holy spirit in the scheme of all of this? Why does an all mighty being need all these troops?

well no, it's not rubbish it's the apostolic tradition started by Jesus... Jesus didn't write the bible, i certainly hope you don't believe that... it would be theologically and historically unsound. the bible in it's present form was pretty much finished by a 5th century roman named Jerome... a Church doctor who compiled the writings of other Church doctors writing under the Spirit.

the Holy Spirit, in answer to your question, is the Spirit of God... Jesus promised to send Him to the Church and indeed did so on Pentecost.

The rest of the world doesn't, including other christian denominations..

si. it is a most unfortunate heresy to deny the Church and endangers their salvation from Sin.

[Jayda]

ok - point taken. still, to me the statues are the same.

si i know...

now you know what i think and why, and i know what you think and why... so that's better than we started off :)

[Intisar]

I think this thread has reached it's peak.

Closed (upon request also).

[Jayda]

if that is your decision...