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View Full Version : Are these insurgents, resistance or terrorists?



Omar_Mukhtar
01-04-2008, 06:35 PM
What you think experts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQE6grECSL0&feature=user
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ricardo_sousa
01-04-2008, 07:31 PM
I can´t see anything.
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snakelegs
01-04-2008, 08:08 PM
they are completely invisible insurgents, terrorists, resistance and other.
CIA? ;D
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Intisar
01-04-2008, 08:20 PM
:sl: Please provide the video akhi, until then, this thread is closed. :)
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Omar_Mukhtar
01-06-2008, 08:40 AM
the thread is open for discussion, amigos!
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ricardo_sousa
01-06-2008, 10:07 AM
This is just propaganda. i doubt that any of that woman knows how to use a weapon. Probably they went to this movie to have food or money.

I believe in this "women groups" when the American Army releases a report about this situations.



Iran also uses this kind of propaganda.. the " Fatima Commandos" of Iran:



Of course that all this women are there to get food tickets and free gasoline. Information of an Iranian.
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snakelegs
01-06-2008, 10:14 AM
i voted resistance altho i just realized that i'm not sure what the difference is between resistance and insurgents.
anyway, i think soldiers of an occupying army are a legitimate target.
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Omar_Mukhtar
01-06-2008, 10:15 AM
The media is a powerful tool these days as you all know. I was reading some research that said the governments/opposition can influence media and sometimes force them to adopt their own terminology. Thus, once a media organization adopts the terminology of a particular group it becomes a biased and effectively enhances the view of one particular group of another. Various u Western Media used the word terrorism, which is widespread word used to label many different actions. More interesting is the use of the word "Insurgent", to my understanding that this is a word which has become like a household word when discussing any news particularly related to the Muslim world. One could say this word is biased in its nature, but more a little bit more neutral then the word terrorist. An insurgent still conjures up images of a somewhat scary character. Words are important specially in this day and age because someone people are informed by the media, also the interest in politics especially in liberal western states is declining, so politicians can spread their terminology to the media and set the ball rolling in the court so to speak. The average person isn't going to question were these words and terminologies originate from or what purpose they serve. Iraq is classic example of how has this been used.


The types of words used can sometimes explain what end of the political spectrum a person sits on, or at least one can gain an insight into whether they support the American invasion or not. Those typically on the left such as George Galloway will refer to the Iraqi fighters as "Resistance", which can be imagined as something heroic, legitimate and organized. This is also the case with various Arab media that label the Iraqi fighters in particular the Arab speaking Aljazeera channel who use the Arabic word “Muqawamah" meaning resistance in English to denote certain conflicts in the Middle East such as Palestine, Iraq and Lebanon. Again these conjure up images of Arab heroes, legitimate struggles and foreign invaders. It is also interesting that the Aljazeera network is said to have used the word, "shuhadah" or martyr in English. For example they are said to have used headlines such as, “6 Shuhuda martyred in Palestine today". One can detect an element of religion creeping into their broadcasts. Compare this to other media who would have covered the same story as, " 6 Palestinian Militants killed" or simply, " 6 Palestinians killed". The former draws to mind imagery of heroism, sacrifice and bravery, whilst the latter is simply 6 Palestinians dying, which isn't considered particularly important in light of world politics.


Those on the right or even far right will tend to use the word terrorist more often then others. In fact they would use a range of vocabulary to demonize their opponents including, terrorist, islamofacist (comparison to Hitler), and extremist, backwards, uncivilized, and barbaric. The other group which even used the word terrorist more-so than that group is the rulers of the countries under occupation such as in Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan. They have a vested interest in demonizing their opponents because the threat of terrorism is the main sole reason that they can use to justify their countries are under occupation and they happen to be the favorite boys of the occupiers so to speak.

This is very important because it would be damaging for the American administration if the entire media defined their opponents as resistance. The average man might not even differentiate between resistance and insurgency. But in terms of legitimacy when it comes to armed rebellions against invaders or governments this definition is of extreme importance:

Omar Mukhtar!


Quote: Insurgency
An insurgency, or insurrection, is an armed uprising, or revolt against an established civil or political authority. Persons engaging in insurgency are called insurgents, and typically engage in regular or guerrilla combat against the armed forces of the established regime, or conduct sabotage and harassment in the land in order to undermine the government's position as leader.

Military definition

According to United States Department of Defense Joint Publication (JP) 1-02, Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms, an insurgency is defined as an organized movement aimed at the overthrow of a constituted government through use of subversion and armed conflict.

An insurgency differs from a resistance both in its political overtones and in the nature of the conflict: an insurgency connotes an internal struggle against a standing, established government, whereas a resistance connotates a struggle against invading or occupying foreign forces and their collaboration.

US government definition of resistance:

According to Joint Publication 1-02, The United States Department of Defense defines a resistance movement as: An organized effort by some portion of the civil population of a country to resist the legally established government or an occupying power and to disrupt civil order and stability.

In strict military terminology, a resistance movement is simply that; it seeks to resist (change) the policies of a government or occupying power. This may be accomplished though violent or non-violent means. It must be noted that a resistance movement is specifically limited to changing the nature of current power, not to overthrow it. The correct military term for removing or overthrowing a government is an insurgency.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resista...ent_definition
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Omar_Mukhtar
01-06-2008, 10:34 AM
Ricardo, I'm not particularly interested in whether the video is real or not. In any case I would expect women to have a pivotal role in any insurgency, resistance of terror movement( whatever you want to call it). They are the ones who's sons and fathers die and are affected the most by the fighting. It wouldn't be far fetched to assume that there are indeed Iraqi women assisting the Iraqis who are in opposition to the U.S invasion. Secondly, it wouldn't be in the interests of the American adminstration to report any such activities. In fact they have avoided any reference to the existence of an Iraqi resistance group. They always tried to portray the people fighting them as largely led by foreigners from the gulf and the international terror network. Many observors will tell you that bulk of the fighters in opposition to the U.S government was made up of Iraqis as opposed to "foreign terrorists". I remember the Washington Post ran an article about U.S officials exagerrating the importance of Zarqawi in the Iraqi insurgency for various reasons:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040900890.html

For the past two years, U.S. military leaders have been using Iraqi media and other outlets in Baghdad to publicize Zarqawi's role in the insurgency. The documents explicitly list the "U.S. Home Audience" as one of the targets of a broader propaganda campaign.

Some senior intelligence officers believe Zarqawi's role may have been overemphasized by the propaganda campaign, which has included leaflets, radio and television broadcasts, Internet postings and at least one leak to an American journalist. Although Zarqawi and other foreign insurgents in Iraq have conducted deadly bombing attacks, they remain "a very small part of the actual numbers," Col. Derek Harvey, who served as a military intelligence officer in Iraq and then was one of the top officers handling Iraq intelligence issues on the staff of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told an Army meeting at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., last summer.

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ricardo_sousa
01-06-2008, 10:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
Ricardo, I'm not particularly interested in whether the video is real or not.
:? so whats the point of this movie? if it is based on movies that you want to pass a "serious opinion", I will bring Hollywood movies to portray the Americans. :D

Of course that are Iraqis in the resistance. But this "resistance" is the worst one that the world have seen. Is not like the French Resistance against the Nazis. The Iraqi resistance kills their one people, exploding bombs in markets, roads, hospitals!! The Iraqi resistance is a group of 3 major groups, that what they really want is to control the country over the others groups, not caring much about the Americans are in Iraq or not.

I feel pity of this women in the movie. What they have to do to have food and money. And bring their children to this movie also... very sad. Actually this movie was a good response to a thread in this forum about the "Islam extremism".
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Gator
01-06-2008, 11:17 AM
Voted insurgents.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-06-2008, 01:42 PM
It's hard to define people as terrorists etc. Look at Gerry Adams, Nelson Mandela (now look at them, they are politicans and respected worldwide) even Isreal had to resort to terrorism to secure Isreal. So as they say it's difficult to pigeon hole.
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Jayda
01-06-2008, 03:13 PM
other: they are miserable failures as women and mothers.
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Omar_Mukhtar
01-06-2008, 04:37 PM
Ricardo, you made a judgement that the women video are not real and they are probably doing it to make money. Your evidence for this was a pic of a bunch of Iranian women. You also state that they are probably doing it to make money, again no evidence provided just hearsay.Women have been serving in serving in various militias in the Iraq particularlt the Kurdish seperatist groupa, women also serve in various militias around the world for example the Tamil Tigers. But hey this one must be false and those women must be Iraqi beggars? Your second contention is that the Iraqi resistance blows up hospitals. Again, no evidence to suggest the bulk of the Iraqi resistance believes in blowing up hospitals or killing innoncent civilians. So i'll leave you to bring some hollywood movies which we can consider as real life. Matter of fact why don't we all stop watching the news and deem every documentary we see as fake and condemn the people in those vidoes as handout seekers because frankly we just don't like them and they challenge our preceptions and viewpoints. You see a bunch if Arab women in a video run by an Arab stations is not considered newsworthy or possibly real by some, because wait for it, they only believe it when, quote:I believe in this "women groups" when the American Army releases a report about this situations.". You know what? from know where only going to post press releases from the American not just some random Arabs:D
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Keltoi
01-06-2008, 09:30 PM
I'm sure the insurgency, in whatever manifestation we're referring to, can recruit women just as easily as men. Look at the number of female suicide bombers in the past four years.

As to whether the U.S. military has actually engaged any sort of female platoon...I would say I have my doubts. Primarily because I haven't heard anything to suggest that. I've spoken to quite a few soldiers who recently returned from Iraq, and they haven't had a major engagement with the enemies there in a good bit of time. Of course there are suicide bombers, snipers, and the occasional skirmish, but as for any major offensives or ambush engagements, not that I've heard. I'm sure there will be another major offensive before this thing wraps up though.
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جوري
01-06-2008, 10:02 PM
I think men underestimate women's warefare, after all they are accustomed to gutting pigs and chicken...
if nothing else, I like what these women symbolize and represent.. they are rebels, all it takes for one woman/man to snap is to lose everything (then they fear nothing).. can't think of anything worst than losing a son! a husband or one's country

cheers
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Cognescenti
01-06-2008, 10:15 PM
It is a propaganda video...just like this was propaganda




The difference is they didn't show Rosie the Riveter's kids crying when she left for the night shift. That these women cynically allowed their own children to be used in a such a fashion is really base.
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KAding
01-07-2008, 12:49 AM
What the difference between insurgents and resistance? Can't they be both? In fact, can't they be all three at the same time? Resistance fighters can be terrorists. Terrorists are also by definition insurgents.

So I'll reserve my opinion for now. I'll lean in the direction of them not being 'terrorists' though, since they claim to only be attacking US troops. On the other hand we know very little about their methods to engage the Americans.

But first and foremost I think they are misguided. They don't understand their enemy, which is causing them to commit acts that are counter-productive to their cause.
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KAding
01-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Btw, if these women are "a growing phenomenon" then I assume they are running out of men in the insurgency? Since if 1. there are more women joining the fight against the Americans and 2. the American casualty rates keep dropping, that can only imply there are fewer men left that are fighting? :?
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Abdul-Raouf
01-07-2008, 02:04 AM
Unless your own country is attacked by a (the so called) super power...
....you cannot realize their (people suffering in the country under attack)situation and their intentions.

No matter what religion you are in.




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