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KelleyD
01-05-2008, 03:46 AM
The United States has created many enemies through its policies in the Middle East over the past century and bears a significant amount of responsibility for creating a fertile soil for anti-American hatred. Any American response that does not address this truth is doomed to further the cycle of violence.

Most of what is regurgatated in the US are reports of a shadowy Islamic conspiracy against the U.S. led by Osama bin Laden, which have, in turn, generated a steady stream of cliché's about this new enemy and its hatred of the U.S. Unfortunately, precious little light has been shed on understanding why this is happening and what exactly Muslims believe.

Any explanation of Middle Eastern violence that relies upon the notion that Islam is an inherently violent or inherently anti-Western religion is false and misleading. First, Islam is one of the world's largest and most diverse religions and like Christianity or Judaism there are thousands of views within Islam about the religion and also about violence and the West. Secondly, there are major differences even among explicitly Muslim militants and activists regarding these issues-some insist upon non-violent struggle and others regard violence as a legitimate tool. There is no way one can generalize about Islam or any religion for that matter.

Last week on Meet The Press, Tim Russert was interviewing presidential candidate Ron Paul and when Paul told Tim that we should look at the reasons behind the attacks on the US, Tim became upset and tried to imply that just by looking at the reason we were attacked-- at the motivations, he was somehow unpatriotic and unamerican. Paul stood his ground and had to remind him of our history and involvement in the Middle East. Is that because Russert doesn't know? Of course not, it's because no American wants to admit that we are now experiencing a by-product of what we created years ago. Which was a US backed war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980's.

OBL and others were recruited by the CIA, Saudi Arabia and Pakistani intelligence services to fight against the Soviet Union during the 1980's. They came largely from the poor and unemployed classes or militant opposition groups from around the Middle East, including Algeria, Egypt, Palestine and elsewhere in order to wage war on behalf of the Muslim people of Afghanistan against the communist enemy. OBL played an important role in helping these groups recruit volunteers and build extensive networks of bases in Pakistan and Afghanistan after 1984. He was a HERO when he was doing the US's bidding for us.

This is where Americans don't do their homework. Even after the last two videos that OBL put out and detailed all of this information, Americans still refuse to listen to what our government has done and what WE are responsible for. OBL and his groups, at that time, also served another purpose for the U.S. and its allies in the region. Not only were they anti-Communist due to their rejection of its atheism, they were also opposed to the brand of Islamic radicalism promoted by the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran (Khomeini); largely because it was based on Shiite rather than Sunni Islamic doctrine. The revolution had toppled a major ally of the U.S., the Shah of Iran, who played a major role as a pillar of U.S. hegemony in the oil rich Persian Gulf and was threatening key U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and other oil rich states. Therefore, the clear aim of U.S. foreign policy therefore was to kill two birds with one stone: turn back the Soviet Union and create a counter-weight to radical Iranian inspired threats to U.S. interests, particularly U.S. backed regimes who controlled the massive oil resources.

Because we wanted to "have our cake and eat it too", our foreign policy in the Middle East has turned into a nightmare for the us and is exactly what led to the attacks in New York and Washington D.C. After the Soviets were defeated in Afghanistan in 1989 the "Afghan" network became expendable to the U.S. who no longer needed their services. And as you can see, we have actively turned against these groups after the Gulf War when a number of those groups returned home and moved into the violent opposition against U.S. allied regimes and opposed the U.S. war against Iraq in 1991.

In short, they are particularly opposed to the unprecedented positioning of U.S. ground troops in Saudi Arabia on the land of the Islamic holy sites of Mecca and Medina. If you follow the intelligence agencies at all you will find that in the past decade there has been a vicious war in the region between the CIA and its allies and militant Muslim groups. The U.S. trains Egyptian police torture techniques. Moreover, the CIA has sent snatch squads to abduct wanted militants form Muslim countries and return them to their countries to face almost certain death and imprisonment.

The primary belief of the veterans of the Afghanistan war is that the West, led by the United States, is now waging war against Muslims around the world and now have to defend themselves by any means necessary, including violence and terrorism. They point to a number of cases where Muslims have born the brunt of violence as evidence of this war: the Serbian and Croation genocide against Bosnian Muslims, the Russian war in Chechnya, the Indian occupation of Kashmir, the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, the UN sanctions against Iraq and the U.S. backing of dictatorships in Algeria, Egypt or Saudi Arabia, for example. They claim that the US either supported the violence or failed to prevent it. In almost all of these cases, they are correct. It is these beliefs, not to mention the fact that we've been bombing the Middle East for the last ten year and continue to keep adding more military bases over there, that enable them to justify not only targeting U.S. military facilities but also its civilians. And we sit here scratching our heads and wondering why? The "why" is clear for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. There is no question that the one-sided U.S. support for Israel, the U.S. sponsorship of sanctions against Iraq as well as U.S. support for dictatorships across the region have created a fertile ground for some sympathy with such militancy.

Osama bin Laden is not the only mastermind of these attacks as is often claimed in the media; he just facilitates these groups and sentiments with logistics and finances, as do others. He is simply a very visible symbol of this loose network and the U.S. obsession with him most likely works to increase his standing as an icon of resistance to the U.S. A rational person would ask themselves, why he was considered a Hero in the 80's and now considered, by the very government who helped him with training, armaments and finances, the antichrist of the 21st century.

The real problem is that the US refuses to address the root causes of anti-American sentiments in the region. Moreover, the U.S appears to have no long-term strategy to address the sources of grievances that the radical groups share with vast majority of Muslim activists who abhor using violent methods that would include, for starters, a more balanced approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, ending the sanctions on Iraq, moving U.S. military bases out of Saudi Arabia, and supporting the legitimate aspirations of regional peoples for democracy and human rights. Legitimate meaning, the majority of the people want and ask for help; not butting your head into a country's affairs when none is warranted and attempting to install your form of government under the banner of "helping" and "nation building" and "democracy" ad nasueum, when all you are really interested in is OIL and contracts.

What truly aggrevates me and the Muslim people I know are the US's double standards. The U.S. claims that it must impose economic sanctions on certain countries that violate human rights and/or harbor weapons of mass destruction. Yet the U.S. largely ignores Muslim victims of human rights violations in Palestine, Bosnia, Kosovo, Kashmir and Chechnya. What's more, while the U.S. economy is propped up by weapon sales to countries around the globe and particularly in the Middle East, the U.S. insists on economic sanctions to prevent weapon development in Libya, Sudan, Iran and Iraq. In Iraq, the crippling economic sanctions cost the lives of 5,000 children, under age five, every month. Over one million Iraqis have died as a direct result of over a decade of sanctions. Also, the U.S. pro-Israel policy unfairly puts higher demands on Palestinians to renounce violence than on Israelis to halt new settlements and adhere to U.N. resolutions calling for an Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian lands. Is this fair?

It isn't and that unfairness cannot be extinguished by Tomahawk missiles or military operations. The present U.S. strategy for ending the threat of terrorism through the use of military force will only exacerbate this anger and desperation. When innocent U.S. and Middle Eastern citizens are killed and harmed during this pathetic "war on terror", or used as cannon fodder for suicide hijackings, the U.S. government expects expressions of outrage and grief over brutal terrorism. But when U.S. Cruise missiles kill and maim innocent Sudanese, Afghanis, and Pakistanis, the U.S. calls it "collateral damage". The so-called hunt for Osama bin Laden has been and will continue to be futile. It's the actions of a true megalomaniac--a sociopathic Bush who can't stand to lose and will try and win at any cost. But he has lost already because the fertile soil that our involvement keeps us entrenched in simply creates other such figures as OBL who will still be around for a long time. Moreover, our continued presence in the Middle East simply serves to inflame passions and create hosts of new volunteers to those ranks.

I hate it that Americans lost their lives in New York and Washington. I was working in D.C. at that time and very nearly one of them. But I also hate that innocent women and children have lost their lives in the Middle East due to America's attacks. These attacks have served no cause; they have likely set back efforts to build popular movements and international solidarity that, in the final analysis, are the best chance of achieving social justice and change in the Middle East and elsewhere. Yet, at this difficult time, Americans should critically examine policies with which Arabs, Muslims and many others have legitimate grievances. Instead, like Russert, our leaders refuse to admit the flaws in their policies and find it easier to demonize those in both the American and Arab world who oppose them as a way of diverting attention from their own mistakes. It's my opinion that more military solutions to the problems in the Middle East and the terrorism that has resulted from these problems is not a policy but a recipe for more violence and bombings.

Is it really so hard to leave people in peace? If America wants democracy there so badly, why don't they start off by taking a democratic vote. All Americans who want us there say aye. All Mulims who want us there, say "aye". Hmmmm.......the silence is deafening.

I welcome all points of view.
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Cognescenti
01-05-2008, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
I welcome all points of view.
No you don't. You are looking for an echo chamber.

Ron Paul is the Charles Lindbergh of the 21st century...and not because he is a fearless pilot, either.

format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
Most of what is regurgatated in the US are reports of a shadowy Islamic conspiracy against the U.S. led by Osama bin Laden, which have, in turn, generated a steady stream of cliché's about this new enemy and its hatred of the U.S. Unfortunately, precious little light has been shed on understanding why this is happening and what exactly Muslims believe. .
"shadowy Islamic conspiracy"??? Are you kidding? The guy has been on Al Jazeera 1000 times. "cliche about hatred of the US"??? Are you kidding? He has declared his hatred publicly. What were the Cole bombing, the African embassy bombings, the Khobar Towers bombing and 9-11....love taps? You have a problem with the bad PR that OBL has created for Islam......YOU fix it!
You go on holiday in North Waziristan and see if you can change his mind. Just remember, if you hear a high-pitched, kinda supersonic whistling sound while you are enjoying donkey kabobs with him .....then duck.
Reply

wilberhum
01-05-2008, 06:35 PM
shadowy Islamic conspiracy against the U.S. led by Osama bin Laden,
I quit reading at that point.

The author is obviously a graduate of the “Ostrich School of Reality”.
Reply

caroline
01-05-2008, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD

The real problem is that the US refuses to address the root causes of anti-American sentiments in the region...
...and the world.

US Interventions
US Military and Clandestine Operations in Foreign Countries - 1798-Present
Global Policy Forum
December 2005

Note: This list does not pretend to be definitive or absolutely complete. Nor does it seek to explain or interpret the interventions. Information and interpretation on selected interventions will be later included as links. Note that US operations in World Wars I and II have been excluded.

1798-1800 France Undeclared naval war against France, marines land in Puerto Plata.

1801-1805 Tripoli War with Tripoli (Libya), called “First Barbary War”.

1806 Spanish Mexico Military force enters Spanish territory in headwaters of the Rio Grande.

1806-1810 Spanish and French in Caribbean US naval vessels attack French and Spanish shipping in the Caribbean.

1810 Spanish West Florida Troops invade and seize Western Florida, a Spanish possession.

1812 Spanish East Florida Troops seize Amelia Island and adjacent territories.

1812 Britain War of 1812, includes naval and land operations.

1813 Marquesas Island Forces seize Nukahiva and establish first US naval base in the Pacific.

1814 Spanish (East Florida) Troops seize Pensacola in Spanish East Florida.

1814-1825 French, British and Spanish in Caribbean US naval squadron engages French, British and Spanish shipping in the Caribbean.

1815 Algiers and Tripoli US naval fleet under Captain Stephen Decatur wages “Second Barbary War” in North Africa.

1816-1819 Spanish East Florida Troops attack and seize Nicholls’ Fort, Amelia Island and other strategic locations. Spain eventually cedes East Florida to the US.

1822-1825 Spanish Cuba and Puerto Rico Marines land in numerous cities in the Spanish island of Cuba and also in Spanish Puerto Rico.

1827 Greece Marines invade the Greek islands of Argentiere, Miconi and Andross.

1831 Falkland/Malvinas Islands US naval squadrons aggress the Falkland Islands in the South Atlantic.

1832 Sumatra, Dutch East Indies US naval squadrons attack Qallah Battoo.

1833 Argentina Forces land in Buenos Aires and engage local combatants.

1835-1836 Peru Troops dispatched twice for counter-insurgency operations.

1836 Mexico Troops assist Texas war for independence.

1837 Canada Naval incident on the Canadian border leads to mobilization of a large force to invade Canada. War is narrowly averted.

1838 Sumatra, Dutch East Indies US naval forces sent to Sumatra for punitive expedition.

1840-1841 Fiji Naval forces deployed, marines land.

1841 Samoa Naval forces deployed, marines land.

1842 Mexico Naval forces temporarily seize cities of Monterey and San Diego.

1843 China Marines land in Canton.

1843 Ivory Coast Marines land.

1846-1848 Mexico Full-scale war. Mexico cedes half of its territory to the US by the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo.

1849 Ottoman Empire (Turkey) Naval force dispatched to Smyrna.

1852-1853 Argentina Marines land in Buenos Aires.

1854 Nicaragua Navy bombards and largely destroys city of San Juan del Norte. Marines land and set fire to the city.

1854 Japan Commodore Perry and his fleet deploy at Yokohama.

1855 Uruguay Marines land in Montevideo.

1856 Colombia (Panama Region) Marines land for counter-insurgency campaign.

1856 China Marines deployed in Canton.

1856 Hawaii Naval forces seize small islands of Jarvis, Baker and Howland in the Hawaiian Islands.

1857 Nicaragua Marines land.

1858 Uruguay Marines land in Montevideo.

1858 Fiji Marines land.

1859 Paraguay Large naval force deployed.

1859 China Troops enter Shanghai.

1859 Mexico Military force enters northern area.

1860 Portuguese West Africa Troops land at Kissembo.

1860 Colombia (Panama Region) Troops and naval forces deployed.

1863 Japan Troops land at Shimonoseki.

1864 Japan Troops landed in Yedo.

1865 Colombia (Panama Region) Marines landed.

1866 Colombia (Panama Region) Troops invade and seize Matamoros, later withdraw.

1866 China Marines land in Newchwang.

1867 Nicaragua Marines land in Managua and Leon in Nicaragua.

1867 Formosa Island (Taiwan) Marines land.

1867 Midway Island Naval forces seize this island in the Hawaiian Archipelago for a naval base.

1868 Japan Naval forces deployed at Osaka, Hiogo, Nagasaki, Yokohama
and Negata.

1868 Uruguay Marines land at Montevideo.

1870 Colombia Marines landed.

1871 Korea Forces landed.

1873 Colombia (Panama Region) Marines landed.

1874 Hawaii Sailors and marines landed.

1876 Mexico Army again occupies Matamoros.

1882 British Egypt Troops land.

1885 Colombia (Panama Region) Troops land in Colon and Panama City.

1885 Samoa Naval force deployed.

1887 Hawaii Navy gains right to build permanent naval base at Pearl
Harbor.

1888 Haiti Troops landed.

1888 Samoa Marines landed.

1889 Samoa Clash with German naval forces.

1890 Argentina US sailors land in Buenos Aires.

1891 Chile US sailors land in the major port city of Valparaiso.

1891 Haiti Marines land on US-claimed Navassa Island.

1893 Hawaii Marines and other naval forces land and overthrow the
monarchy. Read More

1894 Nicaragua Marines land at Bluefields on the eastern coast.

1894-1895 China Marines are stationed at Tientsin and Beijing. A naval ship takes up position at Newchwang.

1894-1896 Korea Marines land and remain in Seoul.

1895 Colombia Marines are sent to the town Bocas del Toro.

1896 Nicaragua Marines land in the port of Corinto.

1898 Nicaragua Marines land at the port city of San Juan del Sur.

1898 Guam Naval forces seize Guam Island from Spain and the US holds
the island permanently.

1898 Cuba Naval and land forces seize Cuba from Spain.

1898 Puerto Rico Naval and land forces seize Puerto Rico from Spain and the US holds the island permanently.

1898 Philippines Naval forces defeat the Spanish fleet and the US takes control of the country.

1899 Philippines Military units are reinforced for extensive counter-insurgency operations.

1899 Samoa Naval forces land

1899 Nicaragua Marines land at the port city of Bluefields.

1900 China US forces intervene in several cities.

1901 Colombia/Panama Marines land.

1902 Colombia/Panama US forces land in Bocas de Toro

1903 Colombia/Panama With US backing, a group in northern Colombia declares independence as the state of Panama

1903 Guam Navy begins development in Apra Harbor of a permanent base installation.

1903 Honduras Marines go ashore at Puerto Cortez.

1903 Dominican Republic Marines land in Santo Domingo.

1904-1905 Korea Marines land and stay in Seoul.

1906-1909 Cuba Marines land. The US builds a major naval base at Guantanamo Bay.

1907 Nicaragua Troops seize major centers.

1907 Honduras Marines land and take up garrison in cities of Trujillo, Ceiba, Puerto Cortez, San Pedro, Laguna and Choloma.

1908 Panama Marines land and carry out operations.

1910 Nicaragua Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.

1911 Honduras Marines intervene.

1911-1941 China The US builds up its military presence in the country to a force of 5000 troops and a fleet of 44 vessels patrolling China's coast and rivers.

1912 Cuba US sends army troops into combat in Havana.

1912 Panama Army troops intervene.

1912 Honduras Marines land.

1912-1933 Nicaragua Marines intervene. A 20-year occupation of the country follows.

1913 Mexico Marines land at Ciaris Estero.

1914 Dominican Republic Naval forces engage in battles in the city of Santo Domingo.

1914 Mexico US forces seize and occupy Mexico's major port city of Veracrus from April through November.

1915-1916 Mexico An expeditionary force of the US Army under Gen. John J. Pershing crosses the Texas border and penetrates several hundred
miles into Mexican territory. Eventually reinforced to over 11,000 officers and men.

1914-1934 Haiti Troops land, aerial bombardment leading to a 19-year military occupation.

1916-1924 Dominican Republic Military intervention leading to 8-year occupation.

1917-1933 Cuba Landing of naval forces. Beginning of a 15-year occupation.

1918-1920 Panama Troops intervene, remain on "police duty" for over 2 years.

1918-1922 Russia Naval forces and army troops fight battles in several areas of the country during a five- year period.

1919 Yugoslavia Marines intervene in Dalmatia.

1919 Honduras Marines land.

1920 Guatemala Troops intervene.

1922 Turkey Marines engaged in operations in Smyrna (Izmir).

1922-1927 China Naval forces and troops deployed during 5-year period.

1924-1925 Honduras Troops land twice in two-year period.

1925 Panama Marines land and engage in operations.

1927-1934 China Marines and naval forces stationed throughout the country.

1932 El Salvador Naval forces intervene.

1933 Cuba Naval forces deployed.

1934 China Marines land in Foochow.

1946 Iran Troops deployed in northern province.

1946-1949 China Major US army presence of about 100,000 troops, fighting, training and advising local combatants.

1947-1949 Greece US forces wage a 3-year counterinsurgency campaign.

1948 Italy Heavy CIA involvement in national elections.

1948-1954 Philippines Commando operations, "secret" CIA war.

1950-1953 Korea Major forces engaged in war in Korean peninsula.

1953 Iran CIA overthrows government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh. Read More

1954 Vietnam Financial and materiel support for colonial French military operations, leads eventually to direct US military involvement.

1954 Guatemala CIA overthrows the government of President Jacobo Arbenz Guzman.

1958 Lebanon US marines and army units totaling 14,000 land.

1958 Panama Clashes between US forces in Canal Zone and local citizens.

1959 Haiti Marines land.

1960 Congo CIA-backed overthrow and assassination of Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba.

1960-1964 Vietnam Gradual introduction of military advisors and special forces.

1961 Cuba CIA-backed Bay of Pigs invasion.

1962 Cuba Nuclear threat and naval blockade.

1962 Laos CIA-backed military coup.

1963 Ecuador CIA backs military overthrow of President Jose Maria Valesco Ibarra.

1964 Panama Clashes between US forces in Canal Zone and local citizens.

1964 Brazil CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government of Joao Goulart and Gen. Castello Branco takes power. Read More

1965-1975 Vietnam Large commitment of military forces, including air, naval and ground units numbering up to 500,000+ troops. Full-scale war, lasting for ten years.

1965 Indonesia CIA-backed army coup overthrows President Sukarno and brings Gen. Suharto to power.

1965 Congo CIA backed military coup overthrows President Joseph Kasavubu and brings Joseph Mobutu to power.

1965 Dominican Republic 23,000 troops land.

1965-1973 Laos Bombing campaign begin, lasting eight years.

1966 Ghana CIA-backed military coup ousts President Kwame Nkrumah.

1966-1967 Guatemala Extensive counter-insurgency operation.

1969-1975 Cambodia CIA supports military coup against Prince Sihanouk, bringing Lon Nol to power. Intensive bombing for seven years along border with Vietnam.

1970 Oman Counter-insurgency operation, including coordination with Iranian marine invasion.

1971-1973 Laos Invasion by US and South Vietnames forces.

1973 Chile CIA-backed military coup ousts government of President Salvador Allende. Gen. Augusto Pinochet comes to power.

1975 Cambodia Marines land, engage in combat with government forces.

1976-1992 Angola Military and CIA operations.

1980 Iran Special operations units land in Iranian desert. Helicopter malfunction leads to aborting of planned raid.

1981 Libya Naval jets shoot down two Libyan jets in maneuvers over the Mediterranean.

1981-1992 El Salvador CIA and special forces begin a long counterinsurgency campaign.

1981-1990 Nicaragua CIA directs exile "Contra" operations. US air units drop sea mines in harbors.

1982-1984 Lebanon Marines land and naval forces fire on local combatants.

1983 Grenada Military forces invade Grenada.

1983-1989 Honduras Large program of military assistance aimed at conflict in Nicaragua.

1984 Iran Two Iranian jets shot down over the Persian Gulf.

1986 Libya US aircraft bomb the cities of Tripoli and Benghazi, including direct strikes at the official residence of President Muamar al Qadaffi.

1986 Bolivia Special Forces units engage in counter-insurgency.

1987-1988 Iran Naval forces block Iranian shipping. Civilian airliner shot down by missile cruiser.

1989 Libya Naval aircraft shoot down two Libyan jets over Gulf of Sidra.

1989 Philippines CIA and Special Forces involved in counterinsurgency.

1989-1990 Panama 27,000 troops as well as naval and air power used to overthrow government of President Noriega.

1990 Liberia Troops deployed.

1990-1991 Iraq Major military operation, including naval blockade, air strikes; large number of troops attack Iraqi forces in occupied Kuwait.

1991-2003 Iraq Control of Iraqi airspace in north and south of the country with periodic attacks on air and ground targets.

1991 Haiti CIA-backed military coup ousts President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

1992-1994 Somalia Special operations forces intervene.

1992-1994 Yugoslavia Major role in NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.

1993-1995 Bosnia Active military involvement with air and ground forces.

1994-1996 Haiti Troops depose military rulers and restore President Jean-Bertrand Aristide to office.

1995 Croatia Krajina Serb airfields attacked.

1996-1997 Zaire (Congo) Marines involved in operations in eastern region of the country.

1997 Liberia Troops deployed.

1998 Sudan Air strikes destroy country's major pharmaceutical plant.

1998 Afghanistan Attack on targets in the country.

1998 Iraq Four days of intensive air and missile strikes.

1999 Yugoslavia Major involvement in NATO air strikes.

2001 Macedonia NATO troops shift and partially disarm Albanian rebels.

2001 Afghanistan Air attacks and ground operations oust Taliban government and install a new regime.

2003 Iraq Invasion with large ground, air and naval forces ousts government of Saddam Hussein and establishes new government.

2003-present Iraq Occupation force of 150,000 troops in protracted counter-insurgency war

2004 Haiti Marines land. CIA-backed forces overthrow President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.

hmmm... and we wonder why there is so much anti-american sentiment around the world today. Too bad there's no way of calculating how many deaths resulted from all these invasions.
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caroline
01-05-2008, 07:23 PM
www.globalpolicy.org
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caroline
01-05-2008, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
What were the Cole bombing, the African embassy bombings, the Khobar Towers bombing and 9-11... .
Which list would call a "love tap" -- this one, or the one above?
Reply

guyabano
01-05-2008, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
Which list would call a "love tap" -- this one, or the one above?
I also have a list for you, since you seem to love that:

7/18/73 USA Washington, DC 8 2 Nation of Islam members shoot seven members of a family to death in cold blood, including four children. A defendant in the case is later murdered in prison on orders from Elijah Muhammad.
10/19/73 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 Nation of Islam terrorists kidnap a couple and nearly decapitate the man, while raping and leaving the woman for dead.
10/29/73 USA Berkeley, CA 1 0 A woman is shot repeatedly in the face by Nation of Islam terrorists.
11/25/73 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A grocer is killed in his store by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/11/73 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is killed by Nation of Islam terrorists while using a phone booth.
12/13/73 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A woman is shot to deah on the sidewalk by Nation of Islam terrorists.
12/20/73 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 Nation of Islam terrorists gun down an 81-year-old janitor.
12/22/73 USA Oakland, CA 2 0 Nation of Islam terrorist kills two people in separate attacks on the same day.
12/24/73 USA Oakland, CA 1 0 A man is kidnapped, tortured and decapitated by Nation of Islam terrorists.
1/24/74 USA Oakland, CA 4 1 Five vicious shooting attacks by Nation of Islam terrorists leave three people dead and one paralyzed for life. Three of the victims were women.
4/1/74 USA Oakland, CA 1 1 A Nation of Islam terrorist shoots at two Salvation Army members, killing a man and injuring a woman.
4/16/74 USA Ingleside, CA 1 0 A man is killed while helping a friend move by Nation of Islam terrorists.
3/9/77 USA Washington, DC 1 1 Hanifi Muslims storm three buildings including a B'nai B'rith to hold 134 people hostage. At least two innocents were shot and one died.
7/22/80 USA Bethesda, MD 1 0 A political dissident is shot and killed in front of his home by an Iranian agent who was an American convert to Islam.
8/31/80 USA Savou, IL 2 0 An Iranian student guns down his next-door neighbors, a husband and wife.
1/31/90 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A Sunni cleric is assassinated in front of a Tucscon mosque after declaring that two verses of the Qur'an were invalid.
11/5/90 USA New York City, NY 1 0 An Israeli rabbi is shot to death by a Muslim attacker at a hotel.
1/25/93 USA Langley, VA 2 3 A Pakistani with Mujahideen ties guns down two CIA agents outside of the headquarters.
2/26/93 USA New York, NY 6 1040 Islamic terrorists detonate a massive truck bomb under the World Trade Center, killing six people and injuring over 1,000 in an effort to collapse the towers.
3/1/94 USA Brooklyn, NY 1 0 A Muslim fires on a vanload of Jewish boys, killing one.
3/23/97 USA New York, NY 1 6 A Palestinian leaves an anti-Jewish suicide note behind and travels to the top of the Empire State building where he shoot seven people in a Fedayeen attack.
4/3/97 USA Lompoc, CA 1 0 A prison guard is stabbed to death by a radical Muslim.
10/31/99 USA Near Nantucket 217 0 An Egyptian airline pilot runs a planeload of 217 passengers into the water after uttering a Qur'anic prayer.
3/17/00 USA Atlanta, GA 1 1 A local imam and Muslim spiritual leader guns down a deputy sheriff and injures his partner.
9/11/01 USA Shanksville, PA 40 0 Forty passengers are killed after Islamic radicals hijack the plane in an attempt to steer it into the U.S. Capitol building.
9/11/01 USA Washington, DC 184 53 Nearly 200 people are killed when Islamic hijackers steer a plane full of people into the Pentagon.
9/11/01 USA New York, NY 2772 251 Islamic hijackers steer two planes packed with fuel and passengers into the World Trade Center, killing hundreds on impact and eventually killing thousands when the towers collapsed. At least 200 are seriously injured.
3/19/02 USA Tuscon, AZ 1 0 A 60-year-old man is gunned down by Muslim snipers on a golf course.
5/27/02 USA Denton, TX 1 0 Muslim snipers kill a man as he works in his yard.
7/4/02 USA Los Angeles, CA 2 0 Muslim man pulls out a gun at the counter of an Israeli airline and kills two people.
9/5/02 USA Clinton, MD 1 0 A 55-year-old pizzaria owner is shot six times in the back by Muslims at close range.
9/21/02 USA Montgomery, AL 1 1 Muslim snipers shoot two women, killing one.
9/23/02 USA Baton Rouge, LA 1 0 A Korean mother is shot in the back by Muslim snipers.
10/2/02 USA Wheaton, MD 1 0 Muslim snipers gun down a program analyst in a store parking lot.
10/3/02 USA Montgomery County, MD 5 0 Muslim snipers kill three men and two women in separate attacks over a 15-hour period.
10/9/02 USA Manassas, VA 1 1 A man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas two days after a 13-year-old is wounded by the same team.
10/11/02 USA Fredericksburg, VA 1 0 Another man is killed by Muslim snipers while pumping gas.
10/14/02 USA Arlington, VA 1 0 A woman is killed by Muslim snipers in a Home Depot parking lot.
10/22/02 USA Aspen Hill, MD 1 0 A bus driver is killed by Muslim snipers.
8/6/03 USA Houston, TX 1 0 After undergoing a religious revival, a Saudi college student slashes the throat of a Jewish student with a 4" butterfly knife, nearly decapitating the young man.
12/2/03 USA Chicago, IL 1 0 A Muslim doctor deliberately allows a Jewish patient to die from an easily treatable condition.
4/13/04 USA Raleigh, NC 1 4 A Muslim man runs down five strangers with a car.
4/15/04 USA Scottsville, NY 1 2 In an honor killing, a Muslim father kills his wife and attacks his two daughters with a knife and hammer because he feared that they had been sexually molested.
6/25/06 USA Denver, CO 1 5 Saying that it was 'Allah's choice', a Muslim shoots four of his co-workers and a police officer.
7/28/06 USA Seattle, WA 1 5 An 'angry' Muslim-American barges into a local Jewish center and shoots six women, one of whom dies.
10/6/06 USA Louisville, KY 4 1 In an 'honor' attack, a Muslim man rapes and beats his estranged wife, leaving her for dead, then savagely murders their four children.
2/13/07 USA Salt Lake City, UT 5 4 A Muslim immigrant goes on a shooting rampage at a mall, targeting people buying Valentine's Day cards at a gift shop and killing five.
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Jayda
01-05-2008, 09:39 PM
i think inflicting violence on others is a natural part of human states... the united states (as you can see from the list) has taken war to many coasts and islam has certainly drank its share of blood in case this turns into a 'you are worse than me' argument. either way, the question is whether america is now reaping what it has sown... i think it is. by deliberately holding the middle east down, to exploit it for oil we have taken away a future for many people and given them hatred of us in its place.
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KelleyD
01-05-2008, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
No you don't. You are looking for an echo chamber.
I am looking for intelligent debate.

format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Ron Paul is the Charles Lindbergh of the 21st century...and not because he is a fearless pilot, either.
His record states otherwise:
Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.
Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

I don't have to clamour for an echo chamber. What I posted has been reviberating for some time now. He raised 16 million dollars in two days and has over 8 million supporters. People who have critical thinking skills are listening to Ron Paul. For instance, in February 2007 he said:

Hundreds of thousands of American troops already occupy Afghanistan and Iraq, a number that is rising as the military surge moves forward. The justification, given endlessly since September 11th, is that both support terrorism and thus pose a risk to the United States. Yet when we step back and examine the region as a whole, it’s obvious that these two impoverished countries, neither of which has any real military, pose very little threat to American national security when compared to other Middle Eastern nations. The decision to attack them, while treating some of region’s worst regimes as allies, shows the deadly hypocrisy of our foreign policy in the Middle East.

Consider Saudi Arabia, the native home of most of the September 11th hijackers. The Saudis, unlike the Iraqis, have proven connections to al Qaeda. Saudi charities have funneled money to Islamic terrorist groups. Yet the administration insists on calling Saudi Arabia a “good partner in the war on terror.” Why? Because the U.S. has a longstanding relationship with the Saudi royal family, and a long history of commercial interests relating to Saudi oil. So successive administrations continue to treat the Saudis as something they are not: a reliable and honest friend in the Middle East.

The same is true of Pakistan, where General Musharaf seized power by force in a 1999 coup. The Clinton administration quickly accepted his new leadership as legitimate, to the dismay of India and many Muslim Pakistanis. Since 9/11, we have showered Pakistan with millions in foreign aid, ostensibly in exchange for Musharaf’s allegiance against al Qaeda. Yet has our new ally rewarded our support? Hardly. The Pakistanis almost certainly have harbored bin Laden in their remote mountains, and show little interest in pursuing him or allowing anyone else to pursue him. Pakistan has signed peace agreements with Taliban leaders, and by some accounts bin Laden is a folk hero to many Pakistanis.

Furthermore, more members of al Qaeda probably live within Pakistan than any other country today. North Korea developed its nuclear capability with technology sold to them by the Pakistanis. Yet somehow we remain friends with Pakistan, while Saddam Hussein, who had no connection to bin Laden and no friends in the Islamic fundamentalist world, was made a scapegoat.

The tired assertion that America "supports democracy" in the Middle East is increasingly transparent. It was false 50 years ago, when we supported and funded the hated Shah of Iran to prevent nationalization of Iranian oil, and it’s false today when we back an unelected military dictator in Pakistan- just to name two examples. If honest democratic elections were held throughout the Middle East tomorrow, many countries would elect religious fundamentalist leaders hostile to the United States. Cliché or not, the Arab Street really doesn’t like America, so we should stop the charade about democracy and start pursuing a coherent foreign policy.

A coherent foreign policy is based on the understanding that America is best served by not interfering in the deadly conflicts that define the Middle East. Yes, we need Middle Eastern oil, but we can reduce our need by exploring domestic sources. We should rid ourselves of the notion that we are at the mercy of the oil-producing countries- as the world’s largest oil consumer, their wealth depends on our business. We should stop the endless game of playing faction against faction, and recognize that buying allies doesn’t work. We should curtail the heavy militarization of the area by ending our disastrous foreign aid payments. We should stop propping up dictators and putting band-aids on festering problems. We should understand that our political and military involvement in the region creates far more problems that it solves.
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KelleyD
01-05-2008, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I quit reading at that point.

The author is obviously a graduate of the “Ostrich School of Reality”.
This thread was created to debate whether America is reaping what it has sown..........not to disparage members and their opionions.

The fact that you decided to "quit reading" because you hear something you do not like speaks louder of the "ostrich" mentality of which you speak.
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wilberhum
01-05-2008, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
This thread was created to debate whether America is reaping what it has sown..........not to disparage members and their opionions.

The fact that you decided to "quit reading" because you hear something you do not like speaks louder of the "ostrich" mentality of which you speak.
The way to create a good debate is to approach it with honesty.

lies and Conspiracy theories are not the base for a good and honest debate. :-\
Reply

caroline
01-06-2008, 12:38 AM
Ah.. I was just waiting for someone to regurgitate the conspiracy theory justification. It's as reliable as that tattered old anti-semite card that gets thrown down any time someone mentions Israel's human rights record. ;) LOL So typical.

Seriously Kelly, thank you for this thread. It is true that United States expansionism doesn't seem to have any limits of how low it will go in terms of foreign policy. The US and Israel have committed so many atrocities around the world that they have justifiably earned a reputation as rogue states. Unfortunately you hit the nail right on the head when you said that "americans" REFUSE to open their eyes to the facts, which has been demonstrated by the oh so predictable personal attacks and lame justifications that followed your post. This is so typical -- I have seen it time and time again. A discerning, well informed person posts a solid expose` on US foreign policy and it is sure to be followed by a stream of red herrings and ad hominem fallacies, rather than anything of substance with which this topic can be discussed in a rational manner. This fact, in itself is the best evidence you could have had to prove that you are right on the money when you say the main problem is denial of the truth. Although I am pretty sure that neither of those posters meant to give you such stellar supporting evidence! But I will say, in their defense, that the current social climate in the United States created a topsy turvy idea of Patriotism in which persons who do as the founding fathers did, and instructed us to do, are now deemed traitors and the people who do as the society the founding father LEFT to form this nation are deemed Patriots. It's kine of like calling a war and following military occupation of a once sovereign nation "operation Iraqi freedom." So many who blindly follow the prescribed agenda and bark out the standard phrases and defenses rather than actually think and read and speak out for true democracy don't realize that they are actually acting out the opposite of democracy because we've forgotten what that means.

You obviously know a lot about this topic and I very much appreciate your presence here.
:)

As for the question of whether or not "america" is getting a dose of their own medicine, well not really. We've dished out genocide and massacres by the hundreds and to tell the truth, we have not received anything even near to what we've handed out over the course of our history, let alone in recent years. We've taken some hits, probably the biggest on 9/11, but even that doesn't even begin to compare with the millions that have burned to death by napalm, blown to bits by cluster bombs, mowed down with machine guns, died in overthrows and invasions and occupations etc.. We've received some attacks but we still haven't a clue what it's like to be sitting in our home with our family and a bomb blow off the side of our house, or to run down the street with our baby in our arms and realize that his legs aren't there and he's been dead since we started running, or to have our homes bulldozed and our water supply cut off. Americans would think they were dying if they lost electricity for more than a day! Let alone have our entire nation crawling with tanks and armed soldiers who didn't flinch at throwing bombs into residential neighborhoods, huddling up in tents and living on less than a dollar a day because a foreign nation has taken control of our government and seized our resources. Let alone, not have any access to health care, or die trying to get to the hospital because foreign soldiers blocked the road and stood laughing at us bleeding down our legs until we lost conciousness. Let alone have so many dead civilians among us that we had to convert public parks to cemetaries. Let alone watched our national treasuries torn to shreads, our churches and cathedrals bombed while foreign soldiers laughed and shouted, "What Cathedral??? I don't see any CAthedral?"

No, the US is not getting what it has dished out. I don't think so. I don't think the typical US citizen can even begin to imagine what that would look like, much less consider the fact that we have done these things to millions of human beings in order to maintain our glutonous status quo. We don't even know what getting what we've given even means, much less begun to experience a fraction of it.

With all due respect.
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Jayda
01-06-2008, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
Yet, at this difficult time, Americans should critically examine policies with which Arabs, Muslims and many others have legitimate grievances.
hola KelleyD,

from what i have experienced that will be difficult... i think from a very early age americans are presented with a very simple picture of the world. we are free, most of the rest of the world is not free.. and we must free them. anything we do that advances our interests by definition advances freedom ergo everything we do is good, we are missionaries of freedom.

i think one of the clearest examples of this is the issue between the israelis and palestinians... israeli is an ally of the united states and models its government after ours. there are also religious connections between fundamentalist protestants and the state of isreal. not in the conspiratorial sense but rather they identify with the state of israel...

consequently we learn from a young age about how the palestinian terrorists bomb the isreali civilians... there is no context, no mention of reciprocity, no examination... it is as simple as 'the people like us are being hurt by bad people.'

i think once americans begin to question our conduct, and the conduct of our allies (especially israel) and when we begin to ask the worst possible question 'what about my enemy?' then people become uncomfortable... it humanizes 'the enemy' and perhaps even begins the process of identifying them. maybe they have legitimate greivances with the things we've done... that's scary, it means we were in the wrong and people have been killed for it.

nobody wants to think about it... so as a result when the subject is brought up it is instantly slapped down as treason or antisemitism or hatred or any number of negative adjectives. given this... i do not know how we could as a nation rethink the way we interact with the rest of the world... how do you start something when you are forbidden to even have a conversation on the topic?

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

caroline
01-06-2008, 12:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola KelleyD,

from what i have experienced that will be difficult... i think from a very early age americans are presented with a very simple picture of the world. we are free, most of the rest of the world is not free.. and we must free them. anything we do that advances our interests by definition advances freedom ergo everything we do is good, we are missionaries of freedom.

i think one of the clearest examples of this is the issue between the israelis and palestinians... israeli is an ally of the united states and models its government after ours. there are also religious connections between fundamentalist protestants and the state of isreal. not in the conspiratorial sense but rather they identify with the state of israel...

consequently we learn from a young age about how the palestinian terrorists bomb the isreali civilians... there is no context, no mention of reciprocity, no examination... it is as simple as 'the people like us are being hurt by bad people.'

i think once americans begin to question our conduct, and the conduct of our allies (especially israel) and when we begin to ask the worst possible question 'what about my enemy?' then people become uncomfortable... it humanizes 'the enemy' and perhaps even begins the process of identifying them. maybe they have legitimate greivances with the things we've done... that's scary, it means we were in the wrong and people have been killed for it.

nobody wants to think about it... so as a result when the subject is brought up it is instantly slapped down as treason or antisemitism or hatred or any number of negative adjectives. given this... i do not know how we could as a nation rethink the way we interact with the rest of the world... how do you start something when you are forbidden to even have a conversation on the topic?

que Dios te bendiga
This is an excellent post. Thank you.
Reply

Cognescenti
01-06-2008, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
I am looking for intelligent debate.
Then you would be well advised to refrain from preposterous red-meat-Democratic-Underground "cliches".


format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
His record states otherwise:
Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record:

He has never voted to raise taxes.
He has never voted for an unbalanced budget.
He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership.
He has never voted to raise congressional pay.
He has never taken a government-paid junket.
He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch.

He voted against the Patriot Act.
He voted against the Iraq war.

He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program.
He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year.
Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress.

I don't have to clamour for an echo chamber. What I posted has been reviberating for some time now. He raised 16 million dollars in two days and has over 8 million supporters. People who have critical thinking skills are listening to Ron Paul. For instance, in February 2007 he said:
Perhaps you misunderstood my point as you don't know Charles Lindbergh's history. You have just described the platform of the Libertarians. I agree with 90% of what Paul says. I disagree with his isolationist views. Charles Lindbergh was a national hero for his aviation exploits. He was also a fervent isolationist who opposed FDR's intention to join the war in Europe against the Nazis.....then the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor....ooooops. Poor Charles Lindbergh wasn't a national hero anymore.

Ron Paul is a little like the third party candidacy of Ross Perot a while back...except that he isn't quite as crazy as Perot.

BTW...don't let it get out that Ron Paul is the darling of Muslims. That would kill the 1/1,000,000 chance he has at present.
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Jayda
01-06-2008, 12:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
Out of that entire post, all you got was a misplaced "lol"?

sigh :(
no, all i chose to respond to was your misplaced lol.

i'm a woman... i'm interested in emotions as much as i am interested in thoughts... sometimes a three letter word can tell me more about the emotions, feelings and intuitions of a person than anything else. sometimes that's more interesting to me than what you've reasoned :)

for the most part we seem to agree on things... keltoi and mtaffi consider me a traitor (although in fairness they have yet to outright say it) for talking about americas exploitive and abusive treatment of different people in certain situations (and largely out of ignorance). we don't agree on everything... you speak with the conviction of a person trying to convince people she is convinced, so i do not expect you to be hypercritical of islam's wars and abuses of human dignity. we will have divergent opinions on that topic often i would imagine... we shall see though.

i'm a strange person, you don't know me yet :) give it some time and you will realize you don't need to bother reading the things i write.
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Cognescenti
01-06-2008, 01:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
...and the world.

US Interventions
US Military and Clandestine Operations in Foreign Countries - 1798-Present
Global Policy Forum
December 2005

Note: This list does not pretend to be definitive or absolutely complete. Nor does it seek to explain or interpret the interventions. Information and interpretation on selected interventions will be later included as links. Note that US operations in World Wars I and II have been excluded.

Uhhh....duh. That's because it wouldn't fit the agenda of portraying the US as
an evil, rapacious empire.

While we are on the topic of WWII, anyone want to hazard a guess as to how many hundreds of millions of Muslims were liberated from slavery under the Japanese largely by the efforts and sacrifices of the United States? How about the Chinese? And Europe west of the Elbe? I do realize the Grand Mufti may have not been happy about the outcome, but my uncle, whom I never met because he was killed in WWII long before I was born, is not here to respond, but if he were, after he composed himself, I feel confident he would say, "you are welcome".

format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
1801-1805 Tripoli War with Tripoli (Libya), called “First Barbary War”.
Honestly, that has always bothered me. If you can find me a Barbary pirate, I will personally apologize to him.
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snakelegs
01-06-2008, 02:02 AM
i think at the very least, we will reap bankruptcy from our insane wars. but i am no expert in economics.
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KelleyD
01-06-2008, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
The way to create a good debate is to approach it with honesty.

lies and Conspiracy theories are not the base for a good and honest debate. :-\
I have posted no lies or theories. My objective is truth and understanding and to help others to start looking with open minds. Knowledge is power but understanding is wisdom.
Reply

KelleyD
01-06-2008, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Then you would be well advised to refrain from preposterous red-meat-Democratic-Underground "cliches".
I have no idea what that means. It doesn't even come up on google. But it doesn't feel very nice so I'd appreciate it if you didn't talk to me in that manner.
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KelleyD
01-06-2008, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
i think at the very least, we will reap bankruptcy from our insane wars. but i am no expert in economics.
Economically, the war is the beginning of the end for the American dollar. This war, which was proposed to be a slam-dunk, pre-emptive strike that will only cost the taxpayers a few billion dollars, has now exceeded $2 trillion. As of today, the war in Iraq alone is costing 8 billion a day. Based on the projection that this “War on Terror” might continue for another 20 years, coupled with the devaluation of the U.S. dollar, it is understood that the future costs of this war will eventually bankrupt our country.

The taxpayer is paying to have our honorable military forces blow up another nation’s infrastructure and then pay to have private U.S. contractors rebuild that infrastructure - while our bridges and highways at home are falling apart.

The expense of this endless war has greatly inflated the price of energy and the overall cost of living. This war has also desecrated the priceless commodity of families all over the world through the countless deaths of loved ones.

Economically, the longer we wage war, the further down we go. Those that don't wish to see will be forced to feel it's effect when the stock market collapses....which, in my estimation, is just around the corner.
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Jayda
01-06-2008, 04:02 AM
nations rise and fall... i feel like american democracy is a noble idea... and perhaps the idea will survive. but americans worshipped their idea too much... and in time began to worship themselves... that is why america cannot recognize when it hurts other people.

nations rise and fall... things will be okay in the long run.
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caroline
01-06-2008, 04:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
you speak with the conviction of a person trying to convince people she is convinced, so i do not expect you to be hypercritical of islam's wars and abuses of human dignity. we will have divergent opinions on that topic often i would imagine... we shall see though.
When I speak out about these issues it is from the gut because I spend a lot of time exercising so much self control in order to be diplomatic in my professional life. I started waking up to the truth about US foreign policy about halfway through undergrad studies and by the time I was deep in grad work I wished I had never learned any of it. I remember one course in particular. It was a very reading intense course in Indigenous Cultures of Latin America and the Caribbean. Of course, you can't study those cultures without finding out a whole bunch of stuff about US foreign policy and corporate takeovers of indigenous lands, massacres of indigenous people, etc... I was about halfway through the course and was reading yet another article on oil corporations in the Amazon. I was sitting at my desk and looked at the pile of articles I had already read -- it was probably 6 inches high and I wasn't even halfway through the course yet. I remember throwing the article down on my desk and shoving the whole pile of into the floor. Very few times in my life have I ever wishes so passionately that I could turn back time. I didn't want to know any of it. I wished I could go back and major in business or music education or something. Why oh why did I take this direction? Why couldn't I just be a banker?

I had a few days where I couldn't read anything. But then I picked the work back up and kept on going. Now I can't stop reading. I have an Amazon.com credit card and if I don't go to the library at least twice a week I think they'd probably call me to see if I was okay. Not really... that's just a joke. But the point is I just keep reading and reading and watching documentaries and staying up nights and getting so mad and angry and heart broken and furious and sometimes I just dispair and cry and cry until my husband makes me watch cartoons with him or takes me out somewhere.

Then I lighten up and read something on religion for a while before I go back to stories of Haiti or Chile or the Mayans or any kind of social justice issues and grassroots development, poverty issues etc.. Right now, my husband and I are in the states for a while because we have some things to take care of before we go back to our project in Haiti. Meanwhile I get calls a lot. One of our friends' husband just died and left her with 4 kids, and she's disabled and the hurricane damaged her house... someone else is about to have a baby and doesn't have money to pay a midwife... its the dry season and kids are getting sick a lot... somebody's baby died... things like that. When we're there I miss being here but when I'm here I can't rest for not being there.

I think it's really really crazy to draw an imaginary line around an area and start shooting your neighbor and taking the things they need to live -- their things. It is not only crazy, it has results and it's the results I can't stop thinking about. Because those results are real people to me. Some of them are people I know by name and love a lot... people I miss a lot and worry about. But I think about the ones I don't know by name too. When I see these smarta** comments on here and all the ignorant insults and people trying to change the subject or defend tyranny I am thinking about a man in a dishdasha carrying a dead and bloody child down the street at a full on run with his mouth open in the way that makes you understand that his cries are coming from a place so deep that few of us can ever know it. That's what Im thinking about a large percentage of my waking hours. I'm "ate up" as my daughter so aptly puts it. And I imagine I always will be. I'll probably be thinking of that man on my death bed and wondering if anything I did or said made a difference.

And so when I finally do let go and speak the truth it's hard not to be harsh and cynical and railing because I am so outraged I can barely breath. And not just sometimes -- I'm outraged all the time. And the way I feel sitting here in my nice little ranch home with carpets and electricity and heat and water any time I want it... sitting here feeling so safe and far from harm's way. I can't even begin to imagine what it feels like to be an Iraqi or a Mayan, or a Palestinian, or a Haitian, or that man in the dishdasha. And I understand even less how anyone could know any of these things and not be "ate up" over it. I'll probably NEVER understand that as long as I live.
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MustafaMc
01-06-2008, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by caroline
When I speak out about these issues it is from the gut because I spend a lot of time exercising so much self control in order to be diplomatic in my professional life. I started waking up to the truth about US foreign policy about halfway through undergrad studies and by the time I was deep in grad work I wished I had never learned any of it. I remember one course in particular. ....
I can empathize with what you must be feeling, but I can see that the degree of your inner misery over the suffering of others is much greater. I am certain that you see more clearly than most all Americans.

I recently read an enlightening book, "The Shock Doctrine, The Rise of Disaster Capitalism" by Naomi Klein. Perhaps you too have read it. This book clearly shows that our invasion of Iraq had less to do with WMD or, when they were not found "Iraqi Freedom", than the privitization and exploitation of their national resources (oil). I now see USA as less of a democratic and more of a capitalist country than I did before reading this book.
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chacha_jalebi
01-06-2008, 02:52 PM
how comes whenever i say anything in the world affairs section its either to tell people to calm down or to close a thread:(

peoples dont go off topic, otherwise the thread will just have to be closed . . . . and respect each other, also conspriracy theories are not approved off, so stop posting them

capiche:D
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MustafaMc
01-06-2008, 03:42 PM
As I have indicated, what USA is spreading throughout the world is not "democracy", but rather "capitalism". The true reaping of what America is presently sowing will not come until the collapse of the capitalist system. The hoarding of the world's wealth by a very few extraordinarily rich people comes at the expense of suffering for the masses. This trend cannot continue indefinitely.

The American populace has yet to suffer the consequences of this economic system. I believe that an economic meltdown now will make the Great Depression of the 1930's look like "a walk in the park". I don't believe that America will suffer a foreign takeover or even significant foreign terroristic attacks, rather I believe that America will collapse from within. That is when America will reap what it has sown around the world.
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Cognescenti
01-06-2008, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
Economically, the war is the beginning of the end for the American dollar.
No it isn't. That is just Chicken Little hysteria. The dollar is under pressure because dollar-denominated investments aren't quite as attractive as they were before the dollar fell relative to other currencies. The value of the dollar isn't by itself a marker for US economic health. Despite the real-estate crunch and inflationary pressure fro high energy prices, the US economy is still growing and productivity is increasing. Perhaps it would be pleasurable for you to see the US in economic distress and there is bound to be a recession at some point, that is the way business cycles work, but your doomsday scenario is economic nonsense.

This war, which was proposed to be a slam-dunk, pre-emptive strike that will only cost the taxpayers a few billion dollars
Nobody ever said that. We will wait while you try to find a source.

...[the war] has now exceeded $2 trillion.
I have heard estimates as high as that but only including lifetime health and disability costs for soldiers and Marines and Iraq reconstruction costs.

As of today, the war in Iraq alone is costing 8 billion a day.
Hmmmm? $8 billion a day...365 days in a year...8 times 5 is 40, carry the four.....<comes back 3 minutes later>.......why, that is almost $ 3 Trillion dollars a year :omg: Something is amiss here.
The taxpayer is paying to have our honorable military forces blow up another nation’s infrastructure.....
Ummmm...no they aren't. The last time US forces did any significant damage to "Iraqi" infrastructure was when they blew up the farmhouse that Al Zarqawi was cowering in.

.... while our bridges and highways at home are falling apart.
Look, weren't you one of the Ron Paul supporters? Do you realize Libertarians don't believe in Federal spending on transportation? If a bridge in Minnesota needs to be fixed...let them do it.

The expense of this endless war has greatly inflated the price of energy and the overall cost of living.
Iraqi oil production is at pre-war levels (counting the cheating that was going on under the leaky UN sanction program). Global production is up since 2003. Please explain to us, then, why energy prices have gone up do to the war.


Economically, the longer we wage war, the further down we go. Those that don't wish to see will be forced to feel it's effect when the stock market collapses....which, in my estimation, is just around the corner.
Thankfully, you are not Chairman of the Fed Banking Committee as your knowledge of how an economy works seems a bit superficial.
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Isambard
01-06-2008, 04:35 PM
I love when people act as though the US invented war.

Especially when they act as though its always without positive externalities.
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caroline
01-06-2008, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chacha_jalebi
how comes whenever i say anything in the world affairs section its either to tell people to calm down or to close a thread:(

peoples dont go off topic, otherwise the thread will just have to be closed . . . . and respect each other, also conspriracy theories are not approved off, so stop posting them

capiche:D
and what, pray tell, are you defining as "conspiracy theories"... please let us know the viewpoints that are censored here.
Reply

Keltoi
01-06-2008, 09:21 PM
Why should the U.S. be the only country with a spotlight on it for "reaping what is sewn?" There is alot of reaping and alot of sewing in the world. Believe it or not the decisions of George W. Bush aren't the only ones that have cause and effect.

As to the basic health of American democracy, I would think we're in a little bit of a funk....Jimmy Carter would probably call it a "malaise". Neither political party makes Americans happy anymore, and the Congress seems incapable of tackling the issues that are really important. Of course that is probably the way the founding fathers envisioned it anyway.

Alot of doom sayers are going to be disappointed when they are 65 and the U.S. is still here and moving right along. Of course they might also be disappointed when they learn all the money they paid into the social security system is gone....but that is another story.
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KAding
01-07-2008, 05:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KelleyD
The United States has created many enemies through its policies in the Middle East over the past century and bears a significant amount of responsibility for creating a fertile soil for anti-American hatred. Any American response that does not address this truth is doomed to further the cycle of violence.

Most of what is regurgatated in the US are reports of a shadowy Islamic conspiracy against the U.S. led by Osama bin Laden, which have, in turn, generated a steady stream of cliché's about this new enemy and its hatred of the U.S. Unfortunately, precious little light has been shed on understanding why this is happening and what exactly Muslims believe.
Bin Laden declared was on the US in his famous declaration of war in 1996. The US took a while to return the favour, but they eventually did in 2001.

Any explanation of Middle Eastern violence that relies upon the notion that Islam is an inherently violent or inherently anti-Western religion is false and misleading. First, Islam is one of the world's largest and most diverse religions and like Christianity or Judaism there are thousands of views within Islam about the religion and also about violence and the West. Secondly, there are major differences even among explicitly Muslim militants and activists regarding these issues-some insist upon non-violent struggle and others regard violence as a legitimate tool. There is no way one can generalize about Islam or any religion for that matter.
This is exactly the position of the United States government. The official position is that Islam is a religion of peace (remember Bush visiting that mosque mere days after 9/11) and that it has merely been hijacked by extremists. Thats exactly why the US has so many Muslim allies in it's 'war on terror'. You have simply erected a straw man here and do yourself make gross generalization about American opinion. In essence you are doing here to the US what you decry others doing to Islam.

Last week on Meet The Press, Tim Russert was interviewing presidential candidate Ron Paul and when Paul told Tim that we should look at the reasons behind the attacks on the US, Tim became upset and tried to imply that just by looking at the reason we were attacked-- at the motivations, he was somehow unpatriotic and unamerican. Paul stood his ground and had to remind him of our history and involvement in the Middle East. Is that because Russert doesn't know? Of course not, it's because no American wants to admit that we are now experiencing a by-product of what we created years ago. Which was a US backed war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan in the 1980's.
It's because the majority disagree, not because they willfully refuse to see this 'truth'. Plenty believe US action in the region have contributed to the current conflict. In fact, I would dare to say this is the majority opinion among foreign policy analysts. But of course, it is so much more complex then that. After all, this is more then a simplistic conflict of the West vs Islam. The Islamic world is essentially in a civil war. Moderates vs fundamentalists, secular vs religious. The majority dying in this conflict are Muslims killed by fellow Muslims. One side considers the others collaborators/stooges/puppets/munafiq or terrorists/extremists/rebels. In 2001 the US simply chose sides.

OBL and others were recruited by the CIA, Saudi Arabia and Pakistani intelligence services to fight against the Soviet Union during the 1980's. They came largely from the poor and unemployed classes or militant opposition groups from around the Middle East, including Algeria, Egypt, Palestine and elsewhere in order to wage war on behalf of the Muslim people of Afghanistan against the communist enemy. OBL played an important role in helping these groups recruit volunteers and build extensive networks of bases in Pakistan and Afghanistan after 1984. He was a HERO when he was doing the US's bidding for us.
Bin Laden and Al-Zawahiri have always vehemently denied this interpretation of history btw. Besides, weren't you claiming all Americans are stupid and fail to see that Islam is not an "anti-Western religion"? Clearly noone in the American government considered the Muhajedeen a threat when they supported them in Afghanistan against the USSR.

This is where Americans don't do their homework. Even after the last two videos that OBL put out and detailed all of this information, Americans still refuse to listen to what our government has done and what WE are responsible for. OBL and his groups, at that time, also served another purpose for the U.S. and its allies in the region. Not only were they anti-Communist due to their rejection of its atheism, they were also opposed to the brand of Islamic radicalism promoted by the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran (Khomeini); largely because it was based on Shiite rather than Sunni Islamic doctrine. The revolution had toppled a major ally of the U.S., the Shah of Iran, who played a major role as a pillar of U.S. hegemony in the oil rich Persian Gulf and was threatening key U.S. allies such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and other oil rich states. Therefore, the clear aim of U.S. foreign policy therefore was to kill two birds with one stone: turn back the Soviet Union and create a counter-weight to radical Iranian inspired threats to U.S. interests, particularly U.S. backed regimes who controlled the massive oil resources.

Because we wanted to "have our cake and eat it too", our foreign policy in the Middle East has turned into a nightmare for the us and is exactly what led to the attacks in New York and Washington D.C. After the Soviets were defeated in Afghanistan in 1989 the "Afghan" network became expendable to the U.S. who no longer needed their services. And as you can see, we have actively turned against these groups after the Gulf War when a number of those groups returned home and moved into the violent opposition against U.S. allied regimes and opposed the U.S. war against Iraq in 1991.

In short, they are particularly opposed to the unprecedented positioning of U.S. ground troops in Saudi Arabia on the land of the Islamic holy sites of Mecca and Medina. If you follow the intelligence agencies at all you will find that in the past decade there has been a vicious war in the region between the CIA and its allies and militant Muslim groups. The U.S. trains Egyptian police torture techniques. Moreover, the CIA has sent snatch squads to abduct wanted militants form Muslim countries and return them to their countries to face almost certain death and imprisonment.

The primary belief of the veterans of the Afghanistan war is that the West, led by the United States, is now waging war against Muslims around the world and now have to defend themselves by any means necessary, including violence and terrorism. They point to a number of cases where Muslims have born the brunt of violence as evidence of this war: the Serbian and Croation genocide against Bosnian Muslims, the Russian war in Chechnya, the Indian occupation of Kashmir, the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, the UN sanctions against Iraq and the U.S. backing of dictatorships in Algeria, Egypt or Saudi Arabia, for example. They claim that the US either supported the violence or failed to prevent it. In almost all of these cases, they are correct. It is these beliefs, not to mention the fact that we've been bombing the Middle East for the last ten year and continue to keep adding more military bases over there, that enable them to justify not only targeting U.S. military facilities but also its civilians. And we sit here scratching our heads and wondering why? The "why" is clear for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. There is no question that the one-sided U.S. support for Israel, the U.S. sponsorship of sanctions against Iraq as well as U.S. support for dictatorships across the region have created a fertile ground for some sympathy with such militancy.

Osama bin Laden is not the only mastermind of these attacks as is often claimed in the media; he just facilitates these groups and sentiments with logistics and finances, as do others. He is simply a very visible symbol of this loose network and the U.S. obsession with him most likely works to increase his standing as an icon of resistance to the U.S. A rational person would ask themselves, why he was considered a Hero in the 80's and now considered, by the very government who helped him with training, armaments and finances, the antichrist of the 21st century.

The real problem is that the US refuses to address the root causes of anti-American sentiments in the region. Moreover, the U.S appears to have no long-term strategy to address the sources of grievances that the radical groups share with vast majority of Muslim activists who abhor using violent methods that would include, for starters, a more balanced approach to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, ending the sanctions on Iraq, moving U.S. military bases out of Saudi Arabia, and supporting the legitimate aspirations of regional peoples for democracy and human rights. Legitimate meaning, the majority of the people want and ask for help; not butting your head into a country's affairs when none is warranted and attempting to install your form of government under the banner of "helping" and "nation building" and "democracy" ad nasueum, when all you are really interested in is OIL and contracts.
I don't really disagree with up to this point, though you seem to be contradicting yourself here. First you make abundantly clear that the Afghan Muhajedeen were supported by the US for geo-political reasons, namely to defeat the USSR and create a counter-force to the Iranian regime. Now all of a sudden "it's all about oil"?

Besides, even if Bin Laden has all kind of desires to expel us from the Arabian peninsula and whatnot. Who is he to demand that? Does he represent the Muslim people? Does he represent any legitimate government? I also want many things, that doesn't mean I expect people to listen to me. The US had the authorization from internationally recognized government of Saudi Arabia to station troops there. The real issue here is private organizations, without any kind of public mandate or official status, demanding things which they really are not in a position to demand.

What truly aggrevates me and the Muslim people I know are the US's double standards. The U.S. claims that it must impose economic sanctions on certain countries that violate human rights and/or harbor weapons of mass destruction. Yet the U.S. largely ignores Muslim victims of human rights violations in Palestine, Bosnia, Kosovo, Kashmir and Chechnya.
I think they disagree about that in Bosnia and Kosovo to be honest. Bush is actually most popular among Albanians! Besides, I thought your main complaints was that the US meddles too much in other countries affairs. Lets not get started on Palestine and Kashmir, those issues are so complex hardly any country that is not directly involves knows what to think about it.

What's more, while the U.S. economy is propped up by weapon sales to countries around the globe and particularly in the Middle East, the U.S. insists on economic sanctions to prevent weapon development in Libya, Sudan, Iran and Iraq. In Iraq, the crippling economic sanctions cost the lives of 5,000 children, under age five, every month. Over one million Iraqis have died as a direct result of over a decade of sanctions. Also, the U.S. pro-Israel policy unfairly puts higher demands on Palestinians to renounce violence than on Israelis to halt new settlements and adhere to U.N. resolutions calling for an Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian lands. Is this fair?

It isn't and that unfairness cannot be extinguished by Tomahawk missiles or military operations. The present U.S. strategy for ending the threat of terrorism through the use of military force will only exacerbate this anger and desperation. When innocent U.S. and Middle Eastern citizens are killed and harmed during this pathetic "war on terror", or used as cannon fodder for suicide hijackings, the U.S. government expects expressions of outrage and grief over brutal terrorism. But when U.S. Cruise missiles kill and maim innocent Sudanese, Afghanis, and Pakistanis, the U.S. calls it "collateral damage". The so-called hunt for Osama bin Laden has been and will continue to be futile. It's the actions of a true megalomaniac--a sociopathic Bush who can't stand to lose and will try and win at any cost. But he has lost already because the fertile soil that our involvement keeps us entrenched in simply creates other such figures as OBL who will still be around for a long time. Moreover, our continued presence in the Middle East simply serves to inflame passions and create hosts of new volunteers to those ranks.
The US has chosen sides. It now actively supports regimes that have the same enemy as they do. Whether this will be counter-productive in the long-run remains to be seen.

I hate it that Americans lost their lives in New York and Washington. I was working in D.C. at that time and very nearly one of them. But I also hate that innocent women and children have lost their lives in the Middle East due to America's attacks. These attacks have served no cause; they have likely set back efforts to build popular movements and international solidarity that, in the final analysis, are the best chance of achieving social justice and change in the Middle East and elsewhere. Yet, at this difficult time, Americans should critically examine policies with which Arabs, Muslims and many others have legitimate grievances. Instead, like Russert, our leaders refuse to admit the flaws in their policies and find it easier to demonize those in both the American and Arab world who oppose them as a way of diverting attention from their own mistakes. It's my opinion that more military solutions to the problems in the Middle East and the terrorism that has resulted from these problems is not a policy but a recipe for more violence and bombings.

Is it really so hard to leave people in peace? If America wants democracy there so badly, why don't they start off by taking a democratic vote. All Americans who want us there say aye. All Mulims who want us there, say "aye". Hmmmm.......the silence is deafening.

I welcome all points of view.
Actually, I agree that a more isolationist policy in the Muslim world would probably benefit the US in the long run. But I don't think it'll change all that much in the Islamic world. Gruesome wars, like the Iran-Iraq war, the Algerian civil war, Darfur, the Afghan civil war and the Palestinian issue will still not have been resolved. Chechnya will not be free. Kashmir won't be Pakistani. Pakistan would still be a mess. Americans might be involved in some of the conflicts, but they are not the main combatants in any of them. Removing them from the equation won't make all that much of a difference. It might get better. But it might get worse as the Muhajedeen/OBL/Jihadists smell victory and will try even harder to overthrow regimes they consider the enemy.
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