Cop quits after insulting gift to Muslim colleague

[Pk_#2]

Peace mercy and blessings be upon those who follow guidance,
Cop quits after insulting gift to Muslim colleague

BY JESSICA CUNNIFFE

Secret Santa's unacceptable offering was a pack of bacon and a bottle of wine

A police officer has resigned after he gave a Muslim colleague a pack of bacon and a bottle of wine as a 'secret Santa' present during a Christmas party at Luton Police Station.

The victim, understood by this newspaper to be a PC Mahmood, was presented with the offensive gift on Christmas Eve.

The colleague behind the anonymous prank, which happened in front of fellow police officers and supervisors, did not own up immediately, but subsequently resigned during his section's next working shift on December 28.

The Koran prohibits the consumption of pork and alcohol - and even coming into contact with them is considered insulting by some Muslims.

Mobeen Qureshi, secretary and co-ordinator of Luton Asian community group Khidmat, believes the severity of the gesture cannot be understated.

"It is not acceptable to be given this. A true Muslim wouldn't touch them and I would be very offended and angry if I was given them.

"The Asian community has a good relationship with the police and I have worked with them for a long time.

"But we have realised that some of these sorts of people have infiltrated the police force. It is very unfortunate that this incident happened."

The incident happened in the year that a report rated Bedfordshire Police the worst force in the country - and its low intake of ethnic employees was given as one reason for this ranking.

In fact the latest performance report to Bedfordshire Police Authority in December stated that no officers from ethnic minority backgrounds were recruited by the force over the last year.

The report prompted police authority chairman Peter Conniff to say: "Part of the problem is that there are very few applicants from ethnic minority backgrounds.

"It is surprising, considering the ethnic make-up of Luton and Bedford.

"We need to try to encourage more every way we can."

The force denies that racism is prevalent and a police spokeswoman said this was a one-off incident between individuals.

Police training in Luton includes some officers attending the central mosque to learn about Islam. Student officers also complete a week's attachment to community groups, while a Muslim preschool in Luton and a secondary school attached to a Mosque assist in further training.

But Dr Ali Dizaei, President of the National Black Police Association, said such incidents occur frequently.

"These are common experiences for the Muslim community in the UK and Muslim police officers," he said.

"I am very encouraged that the police swiftly intervened and that the culprit has resigned.

"I hope that sends out a clear message to people that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated."

A police spokeswoman said: "Although this matter was intended as a joke between officers, Bedfordshire Police takes seriously its obligations as an organisation which not only serves, but employs, a diverse range of staff from the county's wide mix of backgrounds.

"Behaviour of this nature is not tolerated by Bedfordshire Police and after the incident was brought to the attention of senior managers, the officer concerned chose to resign with immediate effect.

His decision is welcomed by the force."

source: http://www.lutononsunday.com/lutonon....asp?ID=246182

Sorry bro it's there now!

[Muezzin]

Boring rule stuff - you need to provide the actual link to the story, rather than just to the Luton on Sunday website.

[Jayda]

what a nasty thing to do to somebody

[NoName55]

Boring rule stuff - you need to provide the actual link to the story, rather than just to the Luton on Sunday website.

Cop quits after insulting gift to Muslim colleague - Luton on Sunday

Secret Santa's unacceptable offering was a pack of bacon and a bottle of wine A police officer has resigned after he gave a Muslim colleague a pack of bacon ...

:w:

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[Muezzin]

Cop quits after insulting gift to Muslim colleague - Luton on Sunday

Secret Santa's unacceptable offering was a pack of bacon and a bottle of wine A police officer has resigned after he gave a Muslim colleague a pack of bacon ...

:w:

Jazakallah khier.

Guys, don't make this NoName's unofficial duty - please provide the source in the original post.

[☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆]

that is really sick... it amazes me what some ppl consider to be 'funny'
he should have been sacked rather than giving him the oppertunity to resign

[crayon]

This joke is the equivalent of a third grader who finds burping amusing. So juvenile. When will people just grow up?

Buuuuut, just to add, the muslim shouldn't have been participating in the secret santa anyway... Just sayin'..

[caroline]

Okay, I guess I'm going to present the unpopular opinion here.

Coming from a military family in the United States in which I was the only girl with 4 older brothers, I am going to say that lots of men in this culture are ruthless pranksters. Now, before people get up in arms, let me explain. Men play all kinds of rude and what I would consider mean practical jokes on each other. They do things that are offensive to each other's physical appearance, their religion, their heritage... all kinds of stuff. They're pretty careful about racial stuff because of the US history around that, but pretty much everything else is fair game. Catholics say things about Protestants and Protestants say things about the Pope. They cram a guy in the trashcan rearend first so he's stuck in there and laugh at him. They put boot polish on the rim of a guy's hat so it gets all over his head when he puts his hat on. They fake a dead body and send one of the new cops out to the scene to mess with him. They get into his computer and send love notes to the boss from him. They do all sorts of rude things. They torment each other a LOT.

Now, in general, most people are a lot less touchy about their religion than Muslims (or so it seems from whats been said in some of these articles). In the states, especially in police, military, and other fields that are largely male and rough -- people say things about other people's religions and do things that would be considered heresy to the next guy all the time. People who are friends say the most awful things to each other in jest. Name calling, making fun of each other's hair or figure or religion or even race sometimes (some of my friends and I tease each other about our blackness or whiteness or other aspects of our ethnicity).

So, first of all, some of this is a cultural misunderstanding. I am not justifying what the guy did or how offensive it apparently was to this brother. But when do we start to stop and consider the fact that these kinds of things might not ALWAYS be some sort of malicious personal attack intended to harm someone. When do we stop and consider that perhaps we might need to think about not being so knee jerk defensive and try to humanely educate people. Instead of having a chip on our shoulder the size of Texas, how about talking to people and explaining that things like that are more offensive to Muslims than they might be to other religious groups because of the ways Muslims see things... at least give people a CHANCE to begin to UNDERSTAND Muslims.

I just think it's really sad that this guy lost his entire career over one stupid mistake. It's not like he raped somebody. He make a rude, ignorant mistake and it just might have been a case of going overboard with a stupid practical joke.

How much more compassionate and wise would it been to sit down with the guy and the boss and explain the feelings of a Muslim and give the guy a chance to really understand Islam.

You never know, that kind of compassion and patience and wisdom might have made him think about exploring Islam. Instead now he has lost his career and is probably suffering trying to figure out a way to survive and care for his family. None of us knows how long it took him to train and learn that job.

Now, had he been given a chance and came out saying, yeah I knew it was awful and would really hurt the guy but I wanted to. Then that's another story.

But we all live in a multicultural society here in the US. Catholics live next door to Wiccans and Atheists and Pentecostals and Muslims and they all have to see their various holiday decorations or religious symbols on their houses and lawns and cars. They all have to hear each others music coming out their windows in the summer time. They all have to see each other's worship sites on their way to their own, complete with Star of David or Cross or Wiccan symbols and their eyes don't burn out from it. We all have to hear each other say "God bless you." "Goddess bless you." "Insha Allah." "Mother Mary." etc... And none of us turns into a pillar of salt from hearing it. We have to drive by statues of all sorts of things, many of them representing one belief system or another.

My question is this: Why should Muslims be the only religion that deserves to be shielded from any element of any other belief system and how does that attitude represent Islam? I am not just speaking of this incident, but of the other articles similar to this like the outcry over a statue of an indigenous sea god being erected by the shore of a fishing village because there was a mosque nearby and the statue would offend the Muslims, and Muslims having a no go zone in areas of London where non Muslims were not welcome to enter... etc. Whether or not every one of those articles has been portrayed exactly correctly or not, I think it's time to start consider losing the chip on the shoulder and spreading understanding instead of representing Islam as intolerant and merciless. No eyes are going to be opened to the glory of Allah like that.

JMHO

[☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆]

I just think it's really sad that this guy lost his entire career over one stupid mistake. It's not like he raped somebody. He make a rude, ignorant mistake and it just might have been a case of going overboard with a stupid practical joke.

Sorry but someone giving wine and bacon to a muslim is more than just a 'mistake' he did this with intent, knowing it would offend his muslim work collegue. It goes beyond the 'pratical joke' category. It lacks dignity and respect, there is nothing wrong with a bit of humour but this 'crossed the line' and i bet there would be the same outcry if it was vice versa, should the muslim officer have given a gift with 'intent' to cause offense.

[KAding]

I'm absolutely amazed that he lost this job over this. Wine and bacon are everywhere in the UK.

The 'victim' should just refuse the 'gift' and someone should explain to the 'perpetrator' it wasn't funny in the least.

[caroline]

I'm absolutely amazed that he lost this job over this. Wine and bacon are everywhere in the UK.

The 'victim' should just refuse the 'gift' and someone should explain to the 'perpetrator' it wasn't funny in the least.

That would have shed a much more positive light on Muslims in general.

[caroline]

Sorry but someone giving wine and bacon to a muslim is more than just a 'mistake' he did this with intent, knowing it would offend his muslim work collegue. It goes beyond the 'pratical joke' category. It lacks dignity and respect, there is nothing wrong with a bit of humour but this 'crossed the line' and i bet there would be the same outcry if it was vice versa, should the muslim officer have given a gift with 'intent' to cause offense.

It was rude, no doubt. But it's not like they held him down and forced him to eat it. It was stupid and rude, but not cause for someone to lose their job. If you saw some of the things those men do to each other... well, it's at least as rude as that and often more so. All I'm saying is that instead of being so knee jerk defensive, how about looking around at the culture, realizing that nobody is immune, and using these incidents as opportunity to show some wisdom, patience, and increased understanding. Why is this such a huge deal? That's what I don't get. There are art museums in the US with statues of Jesus floating around in urine. The Christians don't like it and they raised a ruckus but in the end they had to accept that we have freedom of speech. How many times are Christians made fun of at work, "Hey jesus boy..." "Jesus freak." "Crazy fundamentalist nutjob." Do those people lose their livelihood over it? No. All I am saying is that maybe it's time to grow up and realize there are lots of people in the world.

But then I grew up in a military family with 4 older brothers. I got teased HARD, sometimes just to make sure I learned to take it. Any sign of a chip on the shoulder was a signal that it needed to get knocked off. I know about these things and I know that nobody is immune. Getting all bent out of shape over things like this and somebody losing their livelihood does not shed a good light on Muslims. Now, I think that's important.

What if he would have sat down with the guy and said, "You know, I realize you were probably just trying to be funny but can I explain to you why this is so offensive to me?" That guy might have been able to win that man's heart. But you can bet it will never happen NOW.

I have faced so many unbelievably offensive things in my professional career... one incident in particular I remember I could almost not bear it. I would have to excuse myself and go in the bathroom and cry and then fix myself and go back to work.

I just think the whole issue could be dealt with in a much more mature, wise, compassionate and POLITE manner. And in a manner that would represent Islam in a positive way instead of making Muslims look petty, over sensitive, intolerant and unmerciful. I mean, aren't we trying to create more understanding here? Or are we trying to reinforce the negative ideas that are already out there? What's more important -- the fact that someone got offended, or representing Islam in a positive light?

That's all I'm saying.

[Woodrow]

Like all stories, we only see as much of it as the press deems pertinent.

On the surface and the way it is written, it does appear to be an over reaction to a distasteful prank. Which is true if that is the entire story.

Because the officer resigned, I suspect there is a bit more to this that what is shown.

[Jayda]

Sorry but someone giving wine and bacon to a muslim is more than just a 'mistake' he did this with intent, knowing it would offend his muslim work collegue. It goes beyond the 'pratical joke' category. It lacks dignity and respect, there is nothing wrong with a bit of humour but this 'crossed the line' and i bet there would be the same outcry if it was vice versa, should the muslim officer have given a gift with 'intent' to cause offense.

i think it also matters that this is a policeman... not a cashier or librarian... he is in a position of authority over people. that attitude is corrosive in such a position...

[Jayda]

It was rude, no doubt. But it's not like they held him down and forced him to eat it. It was stupid and rude, but not cause for someone to lose their job. If you saw some of the things those men do to each other... well, it's at least as rude as that and often more so. All I'm saying is that instead of being so knee jerk defensive, how about looking around at the culture, realizing that nobody is immune, and using these incidents as opportunity to show some wisdom, patience, and increased understanding. Why is this such a huge deal? That's what I don't get. There are art museums in the US with statues of Jesus floating around in urine. The Christians don't like it and they raised a ruckus but in the end they had to accept that we have freedom of speech. How many times are Christians made fun of at work, "Hey jesus boy..." "Jesus freak." "Crazy fundamentalist nutjob." Do those people lose their livelihood over it? No. All I am saying is that maybe it's time to grow up and realize there are lots of people in the world.

But then I grew up in a military family with 4 older brothers. I got teased HARD, sometimes just to make sure I learned to take it. Any sign of a chip on the shoulder was a signal that it needed to get knocked off. I know about these things and I know that nobody is immune. Getting all bent out of shape over things like this and somebody losing their livelihood does not shed a good light on Muslims. Now, I think that's important.

What if he would have sat down with the guy and said, "You know, I realize you were probably just trying to be funny but can I explain to you why this is so offensive to me?" That guy might have been able to win that man's heart. But you can bet it will never happen NOW.

I have faced so many unbelievably offensive things in my professional career... one incident in particular I remember I could almost not bear it. I would have to excuse myself and go in the bathroom and cry and then fix myself and go back to work.

I just think the whole issue could be dealt with in a much more mature, wise, compassionate and POLITE manner. And in a manner that would represent Islam in a positive way instead of making Muslims look petty, over sensitive, intolerant and unmerciful. I mean, aren't we trying to create more understanding here? Or are we trying to reinforce the negative ideas that are already out there? What's more important -- the fact that someone got offended, or representing Islam in a positive light?

That's all I'm saying.

hola Caroline,

i do not think that is necessarily so about military men. they are very competitive but not necessarily in a childish or abusive way. i grew up in a military family... my father, uncle and all of my male cousins are officers (women may not enter the military in my family). my cousins are all religious, ethical and principled gentlemen... like my father, they were also very compassionate and protective of me and never picked on me. they do not and never have treated people like the way this policeman did... it isn't funny when it's so disrespectful.

and just because it is prevalent doesn't mean it shouldn't be punished... i think there is a difference between when people tease me and when people do something exceptionally blasphemous to insult me.

que Dios te bendiga

[caroline]

I am thinking of the sergeant in the privates face screaming insults that can't be repeated in polite company...

But as far as insults, I think the disagreement here is on just how important that is. To me, an insult is not that big of a deal. I think that a large percentage of the time, getting offended is your own choice. And if you do, so what? Why not deal with it in a mature, generous, and compassionate way? Especially if you are representing a religion you love.

That's all I'm saying. There are much more important things in the world to get all bent out of shape over than an insult. Why not use it as an opportunity to show what kind of character your religion has created in you instead of getting someone fired?

[ricardo_sousa]

He shouldn´t quit. If it was a joke, he should explain it and apologizie. Very bad times are coming to the UK if for a "food and drink religious joke" is reason to fire someone.

[NoName55]

He shouldn´t quit. If it was a joke, he should explain it and apologizie. Very bad times are coming to the UK if for a "food and drink religious joke" is reason to fire someone.

how do you know that it was NOT part of or culmination of a sustained campaign by the "innocent" prankster against the Muslim officer?

(I know, I know,it is waste of time as any question I ask of you people gets deleted so can you for once play fair and reply before your friendly modz come and zap it)

[ricardo_sousa]

how do you know that it was NOT part of or culmination of a sustained campaign by the "innocent" prankster against the Muslim officer?

I don´t. But for me it is indifferent if the officer is Muslim, Christan, Hindu...

It was a joke. My grandfather, with other friends, when worked in France used to do the same to the Magreb workers. And it was a joke. This was 30 years ago. If now this has so many importance maybe Europe is really returning to the Dark Ages. History is a always repeating.

[Jayda]

(I know, I know,it is waste of time as any question I ask of you people gets deleted so can you for once play fair and reply before your friendly modz come and zap it)

why are you so grumpy all the time!

[NoName55]

I don´t. But for me it is indifferent if the officer is Muslim, Christan, Hindu...

It was a joke. My grandfather, with other friends, when worked in France used to do the same to the Magreb workers. And it was a joke. This was 30 years ago. If now this has so many importance maybe Europe is really returning to the Dark Ages. History is a always repeating.

luckily British Police force is not being run by LIStaff! or each time a Muslim is victimized it would be excused (under the pretext of humor) and if a Muslim dared retaliate (s)he will be punished for being rude or over sensitive

[ricardo_sousa]

if a Muslim dared retaliate (s)he will be punished for being rude or over sensitive

in fact that´s true. just look at the danish cartoons case. ...

[NoName55]

in fact that´s true. just look at the danish cartoons case. ...

this topic about British Police or Danish cartoons?

I suppose it is a privilege reserved for non-Muslims and pretenders that they can drag threads any which way they like whereas we are NOT even allowed to call worship of idols, idolatry on a so-called Islamic forum lest it offends you people

[ricardo_sousa]

this topic about British Police or Danish cartoons?

I answer your hypothetical statement with a fact.

[Woodrow]

how do you know that it was NOT part of or culmination of a sustained campaign by the "innocent" prankster against the Muslim officer?

(I know, I know,it is waste of time as any question I ask of you people gets deleted so can you for once play fair and reply before your friendly modz come and zap it)

That is a possibility that should not be over looked. I find it hard to believe that there would be any firing or resignation over a stupid one time event.

[NoName55]

^^ jazakaAllah khair! someone injects some commonsense at last into otherwise Muslim-bashing marathon

wa salam

[caroline]

True that we don't have a lot of information on this and there might have been prior harassment leading up to this, which would change the whole picture. But we weren't told that so we fairly assumed it was just this one issue.

[caroline]

I agree noname, that we did not have the information you mentioned, but I don't see that it was a "Muslim bashing marathon."

[جوري]

this topic about British Police or Danish cartoons?

.. Some folks derive gratification out of simplistic conclusions.. just got to shrug your shoulder and let them disgorge their desultory thoughts on a public forum.. it makes them feel really important, and virtually appealing!

:w:

[NoName55]

^^ JazakIllah khairan wa salam alaikum

[جوري]

^^ JazakIllah khairan wa salam alaikum

'in tansoro Allah yansorkoum wa yothabit aqdamakoum'..
I enjoy your presence here and what you have to write.. you don't even need to make a note of it. And you most certainly don't need to be worked up over an under-educated ignoramus with a keyboard and what appears to be alot of free time on his hand!

:w:

[MTAFFI]

what this cop did was completely unnecessary and out of line especially since he obviously new what he was doing it when he did it, it is wrong and doesnt go well for relations..

On the other hand what is this Muslim doing participating in a Christmas game anyways? To Muslims (please correct me if I am wrong, I am still new at this) Dec. 25 is a meaningless date since it isnt actually the birth date of Christ. The whole situation could have been avoided if this Muslim was so devout in all aspects of his religion as he is about bacon and wine.

[NoName55]

what this cop did was completely unnecessary and out of line especially since he obviously new what he was doing it when he did it, it is wrong and doesnt go well for relations..

thanx

On the other hand what is this Muslim doing participating in a Christmas game anyways? To Muslims (please correct me if I am wrong, I am still new at this) Dec. 25 is a meaningless date since it isn't actually the birth date of Christ. The whole situation could have been avoided if this Muslim was so devout in all aspects of his religion as he is about bacon and wine.

(most police still work on x-mas day) Christmas eve falls a day before 25th, Muslim officer worked at the Station and from my own work experiences, I know that Christmas Eve parties are held at workplace whether you like it or not you come across them which does not mean you are taking part in it. you just happen to be in the same building as the revelers

and even if he did commit a sin, there is no excuse for teasing him there or putting him on trial here on these forums

[*Hana*]

This thread is the perfect example of what is wrong with society today. I am thoroughly disgusted that there are people defending the actions of this officer. There is absolutely NO justification for what he did. And I would be just as disgusted if it was the gift of pork and an easy bake oven to a Jew or a noose and a KKK hood to a black man. Where do we draw the line here?? Where is the respect for your fellow human beings? Why should the one being offended just shrug it off. Why not let the gang rape victim shrug it off because the boys were just having fun!? This Muslim joined the police force so he should just accept that some people are thoughtless morons and not react? What is wrong with you people that you can not see the absurdity of what you're saying!?!

This is NOT humour, it can, in no way be understood to be humour and can only be taken one way....offensive!! I also come from a huge military family and have been on the receiving end and the giving end of practical jokes, I have heard and laughed at jokes about Muslims and never took them as an intent to be offensive, but THIS is nothing but vile.

The guy QUIT, was not fired....consider that and ask why he would quit before he was fired.

The next time you women are walking down the road and being harassed by a bunch of guys "having fun", don't be offended....this happens all the time and is perfectly fine and acceptable...get over it and suck it up princess!! The guys remember the same thing when it happens to your mother, sister, wife or girlfriend.

Exaggerating?? Maybe, but where do you draw the line? One person's fun may not be so much fun for the person on the other end!

Uffff, so disgusted.

Hana

[NoName55]

This thread is the perfect example of what is wrong with society today. I am thoroughly disgusted that there are people defending the actions of this officer. There is absolutely NO justification for what he did. And I would be just as disgusted if it was the gift of pork and an easy bake oven to a Jew or a noose and a KKK hood to a black man. Where do we draw the line here?? Where is the respect for your fellow human beings? Why should the one being offended just shrug it off. Why not let the gang rape victim shrug it off because the boys were just having fun!? This Muslim joined the police force so he should just accept that some people are thoughtless morons and not react? What is wrong with you people that you can not see the absurdity of what you're saying!?!

This is NOT humour, it can, in no way be understood to be humour and can only be taken one way....offensive!! I also come from a huge military family and have been on the receiving end and the giving end of practical jokes, I have heard and laughed at jokes about Muslims and never took them as an intent to be offensive, but THIS is nothing but vile.

The guy QUIT, was not fired....consider that and ask why he would quit before he was fired.

The next time you women are walking down the road and being harassed by a bunch of guys "having fun", don't be offended....this happens all the time and is perfectly fine and acceptable...get over it and suck it up princess!! The guys remember the same thing when it happens to your mother, sister, wife or girlfriend.

Exaggerating?? Maybe, but where do you draw the line? One person's fun may not be so much fun for the person on the other end!

Uffff, so disgusted.

Hana

Bravo! beautifully put!!
JazakIllah khairan wa salam alaikum

[caroline]

an under-educated ignoramus with a keyboard and what appears to be alot of free time on his hand!

:w:

Interesting that this thread is about someone losing their job for INSULTING someone...^o)

[NoName55]

funny how these infiltrators try to teach us Aadab while chipping away at our very foundation!

hilarious.

[MTAFFI]

thanx

no prob

(most police still work on x-mas day) Christmas eve falls a day before 25th, Muslim officer worked at the Station and from my own work experiences, I know that Christmas Eve parties are held at workplace whether you like it or not you come across them which does not mean you are taking part in it. you just happen to be in the same building as the revelers

I guess I didnt think of it that way, I havent really had to work in a "workplace enviroment" for some time, however the Christmas parties that I have participated in you usually had to put your name in a hat and then draw names, that way if you dont want to participate (usually because some people simply dont care to buy anyone anything) you dont have to, however since there is nothing here to prove that this is or is not the case, I will give him the benefit of the doubt since the actual offense was done with malice knowing full well what it was about, and it was wrong regardless.

[جوري]

Interesting that this thread is about someone losing their job for INSULTING someone...^o)

Indeed-- unprovoked, dastardly attacks will usually be met with some action in return for injury received.. Perhaps that puts it all in a non-linear, somewhat multi-dimensional perspective for you?

cheers

[Pk_#2]

funny how these infiltrators try to teach us Aadab while chipping away at our very foundation!

hilarious.

Hmm a lot of different views..

Reminder: Quit calling each other long meaningless names which are hard to pronounce and spell. eek

JazakAllah khairun bro's/sistas / Thanks bruvas & siters

Sorry about the link, it was on the front page of the link so I thought just type that in..

Peace out.

[ricardo_sousa]

it is funny how so many commentaries in this thread could be used in this one:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...c-product.html

[caroline]

And I would be just as disgusted if it was the gift of pork and an easy bake oven to a Jew or a noose and a KKK hood to a black man. Where do we draw the line here?? ...Why not let the gang rape victim shrug it off because the boys were just having fun!? ...This Muslim joined the police force so he should just accept that some people are thoughtless morons and not react?

Exaggerating?? Maybe, but where do you draw the line? One person's fun may not be so much fun for the person on the other end!

Uffff, so disgusted.

Hana

Threats of violence (i.e. a hanging noose) and actual violence (i.e. RAPE) are a lot different than and insult.

And nobody said not to react. I only suggested that chosing to get bent completely out of shape and get so offended by an insult might not be the best, or most constructive choice. And being NOT fun is not lethal. It's a bummer but it's not RAPE.

All Im saying, not that it will prevent you from choosing to be so thoroughly OFFENDED, is that an insult dealt with graciously might be a better representative of Islam to the world. Especially at a time when Muslims are getting a reputation for being thin skinned and petty and demanding special priviledges that they don't allow others.

I'm just trying to be reasonable and point out that there might be ways of dealing with things that would promote a positive representation of Islam.

I'm not burning Qurans here. I'm just suggesting ways of thinking that could improve things for Muslims instead of making them worse.

But please do excuse me if I'm speaking out of line. If getting validated for an insult is more important than presenting a good representation of Allah's Messenger, then so be it...

[snakelegs]

bigotry/hostility/agressiveness that hides behind humour is sometimes even more hateful than more direct manifestations. there is nothing funny about this type of thing.
i agree with Hana_Aku's post.

[caroline]

Indeed-- unprovoked, dastardly attacks will usually be met with some action in return for injury received.. Perhaps that puts it all in a non-linear, somewhat multi-dimensional perspective for you?

cheers

Oh sorry. I didn't see you get attacked. And if your hateful attitude is a representation of Islam then perhaps it is good for me to continue taking my time in searching out the truth.

[caroline]

funny how these infiltrators try to teach us Aadab while chipping away at our very foundation!

hilarious.

"infiltrators?"

Okay, that's enough.

bye

[NoName55]

no prob


I guess I didnt think of it that way, I havent really had to work in a "workplace enviroment" for some time, however the Christmas parties that I have participated in you usually had to put your name in a hat and then draw names, that way if you dont want to participate (usually because some people simply dont care to buy anyone anything) you dont have to, however since there is nothing here to prove that this is or is not the case, I will give him the benefit of the doubt since the actual offense was done with malice knowing full well what it was about, and it was wrong regardless.

jazakaAllah khair wa salam alaikum

[*Hana*]

Threats of violence (i.e. a hanging noose) and actual violence (i.e. RAPE) are a lot different than and insult.

And nobody said not to react. I only suggested that chosing to get bent completely out of shape and get so offended by an insult might not be the best, or most constructive choice. And being NOT fun is not lethal. It's a bummer but it's not RAPE.

All Im saying, not that it will prevent you from choosing to be so thoroughly OFFENDED, is that an insult dealt with graciously might be a better representative of Islam to the world. Especially at a time when Muslims are getting a reputation for being thin skinned and petty and demanding special priviledges that they don't allow others.

I'm just trying to be reasonable and point out that there might be ways of dealing with things that would promote a positive representation of Islam.

I'm not burning Qurans here. I'm just suggesting ways of thinking that could improve things for Muslims instead of making them worse.

But please do excuse me if I'm speaking out of line. If getting validated for an insult is more important than presenting a good representation of Allah's Messenger, then so be it...

Caroline:

You totally missed the point in an effort to justify bad behavior. Who said it was a threat of violence? It was just a joke, right? I never said anything about threats at all. Just all in good fun. What are you saying? You don't find those things amusing? You didn't get a little teehee out of them? hmmmm, strange. :X

I guess behaving in a Christ-like manner doesn't come into play? How about depicting oneself as a decent human being? Oh, I guess it's only up to Muslims to always be the ones to behave 100% appropriately, 100% of the time. ok then.

Peace to you, Caroline,
Hana

[caroline]

Caroline:

You totally missed the point in an effort to justify bad behavior. Who said it was a threat of violence? It was just a joke, right? I never said anything about threats at all. Just all in good fun. What are you saying? You don't find those things amusing? You didn't get a little teehee out of them? hmmmm, strange. :X

I guess behaving in a Christ-like manner doesn't come into play? How about depicting oneself as a decent human being? Oh, I guess it's only up to Muslims to always be the ones to behave 100% appropriately, 100% of the time. ok then.

Peace to you, Caroline,
Hana

You know perfectly well that a noose has only one use -- to kill someone. Since when did anyone get killed with a package of bacon. You're being childish.

And now its only poor Muslims that have to behave 100% 100% of the time...

Where did you get THAT?

Good example of what I'm talking about though... Go right on building your reputations.

I guess I found out what I needed to know.

[NoName55]

byeeeee!

[Jayda]

NoName, stop pulling Caroline's hair,
Ambrosia, we know you have a thesaurus stop beating people over the head with it
Ricardo, stop poking everybody all the time

DON'T MAKE ME PULL THIS CAR OVER.

[caroline]

byeeeee!

Moderators, please cancel my membership.

Oh, and you're welcome... I did think you might appreciate me suggesting some ways to improve the reputation of Muslims in the US and foster better relationships, perhaps even further the cause of Islam.

I see you're not interested in that.

And, as always, I am thankful to God for guiding me to the truth about things and people, even the ones who/what are not as they seem.

[*Hana*]

You know perfectly well that a noose has only one use -- to kill someone. Since when did anyone get killed with a package of bacon. You're being childish.

And now its only poor Muslims that have to behave 100% 100% of the time...

Where did you get THAT?

Good example of what I'm talking about though... Go right on building your reputations.

I guess I found out what I needed to know.

Caroline:

Did you ever stop to think how different things offend different people? You see the noose as a threat, I see it as a total lack of respect. You are just justifying bad behavior. Somewhere you have decided for yourself what others should and shouldn't find offensive and now you storm off like you're two and adding insults.

I hope what you discovered is to be more open minded and learn that what you my perceive as harmless fun, is not necessarily taken that way by everyone. The noose and hood is representative of keeping the black man down, belittling him back to the days of slavery and you found that extremely offensive....rightfully so. Odd you didn't say anything about the Jews? You saw that as funny or acceptable? The bacon and wine tells the Muslim, this human being, that he is not respected, that he is beneath the offending officer, etc.

I'm sorry you can't see that, I really am. I sincerely hope you never have to experience that kind of humiliation or that you never have to look into the eyes of your child to see the harm it causes.

I also find it odd that you focus on just the Muslim whereas my concern was for anyone that finds themselves at the receiving end of disrespect, regardless of their race, colour, beliefs, etc.

I do wish you peace.

Hana

[جوري]

Oh sorry. I didn't see you get attacked. And if your hateful attitude is a representation of Islam then perhaps it is good for me to continue taking my time in searching out the truth.

An insult to Islam, rasool Allah, or Allah swt, is a much graver sin in my book than insulting me as a person. That goes for the lady whom you were so kind as to give me negative feedback for on my user CP, as if to applaud her for calling prophet Mohammed SAW a false prophet and continue on with her crap for days. This isn't something I can instill in you or make you understand.

I'll not sell my religion or water it down to befriend a woman whose heart hides much more than what she has actually let on..

if that means islam is unappealing to you, then by all means, no one here has stuck a gun to your head and asked you to join or convert? I assure you if there was just one true Muslim left in the world, then it wouldn't matter at all to Allah.. there was a time when all there was, was Abraham P and his newphew (Lut) I'd rather have a strong Muslim than a fickle one any day of the week!

cheers

[Jayda]

i still think, prank or no prank... it is a bad idea to have a person who is that adolescent in a position of authority and power!

if i learned that the local police thought it was funny to make racist jokes about latinos i would not trust being around them when i am alone.

[NoName55]

NoName, stop pulling Caroline's hair,
Ambrosia, we know you have a thesaurus stop beating people over the head with it
Ricardo, stop poking everybody all the time

DON'T MAKE ME PULL THIS CAR OVER.

hehe :D

it does, sometimes, look like a a kiddie gang in a car with a frustrated mom!

Thank you for reminder (even if it is some other clever ruse) wa salam (peace)

[Jayda]

hehe :D

it does look like a a kiddie gang in a car with a frustrated mom!

Thank you for reminder wa salam (peace)

does this mean you like me now??? :happy::happy::happy:

[Jayda]

i still think, prank or no prank... it is a bad idea to have a person who is that adolescent in a position of authority and power!

if i learned that the local police thought it was funny to make racist jokes about latinos i would not trust being around them when i am alone.

actually, let me rephrase that.

i already don't trust younger police officers around me because i know many have adolescent attitudes... they used to catcall and shout gross things at me when i used to walk by during their football games in the summer. even that much juvenile behavior makes me REALLY nervous to be around them if nobody else is around... if something were to happen who would believe me over a cop, i can't fight back to somebody who is trained and there is nowhere to run.

i couldn't imagine how much more frightened i would be if i knew that he spraypainted 'beaner' on a mexican cops' locker just recently...

people need to trust their police officers, we give them power to enforce our laws... if there is no trust then we do not feel good about giving them power

[caroline]

Look. I came to this board because I have been one of the most passionate staunch supporters of Muslims in my community for a LONG time. I came in here out of respect and love for a religion I thought to be beautiful and to learn more about it.

You are comparing rape and an insult. I am trying to point out that reacting in some ways does NOT further the cause of Islam. The reason I am doing that (sticking my neck out in a group of people that are already known for being hyper sensitive and thin skinned and intolerant, but whom I love and defend at the expense of my OWN reputation in the community where I LIVE AND WORK AND HAVE RAISED MY OWN CHILDREN) is to try to help you realize that choosing to get offended and seek validation might not HELP you as much as it will HARM you and that if you instead think about... just think aobut... just CONSIDER taking a more though out, compassionate route and seeking to foster UNDERSTANDING. Well, then you might have better luck and building a more positive perception of Islam in general.

But excuse me for that. Far be it from me, just because I have cared about you and loved you and stood on the side of Muslims in argument of which you will never know anything about... far be it from me to disparage being disappointed to come in here and find people insulting each other, nit picking, over reacting and getting so bent out of shape they can't see straight because I too the initiative to speak up and suggest a manner of doing things that might HELP.

And I'm sure you won't appreciate this either, but frankly, I expected better things. I expected polite people who would listen and consider. I expected people who were interested in furthering the cause of PEACE. Maybe I expected too much and my ideas about Islam and Muslims were too naive. But really... all this name calling and nit picking and insulting and back biting and arguing and pettiness... Really.

You don't even know when somebody's on YOUR SIDE.

Geesh... talk about shooting the messenger. I came here out of love and respect and found a room full of petty little children shooting spit wads at each other and calling names.

If you'll pardon my candor.

And whether or not you care or know it, I will continue to defend Muslims where ever I go, even when it ends up alienating me from my own people.

[caroline]

An insult to Islam, rasool Allah, or Allah swt, is a much graver sin in my book than insulting me as a person. the week!

cheers

What you will probably never understand is that behaving in a hateful, constantly degrading and insulting manner while representing Islam IS and INSULT TO ALLAH.

[NoName55]

does this mean you like me now??? :happy::happy::happy:

I never disliked you the person:) (only the posts that declare me blasphemer against Paul)

[جوري]

Look. I came to this board because I have been one of the most passionate staunch supporters of Muslims in my community for a LONG time. I came in here out of respect and love for a religion I thought to be beautiful and to learn more about it.

You are comparing rape and an insult. I am trying to point out that reacting in some ways does NOT further the cause of Islam. The reason I am doing that (sticking my neck out in a group of people that are already known for being hyper sensitive and thin skinned and intolerant, but whom I love and defend at the expense of my OWN reputation in the community where I LIVE AND WORK AND HAVE RAISED MY OWN CHILDREN) is to try to help you realize that choosing to get offended and seek validation might not HELP you as much as it will HARM you and that if you instead think about... just think aobut... just CONSIDER taking a more though out, compassionate route and seeking to foster UNDERSTANDING. Well, then you might have better luck and building a more positive perception of Islam in general.

But excuse me for that. Far be it from me, just because I have cared about you and loved you and stood on the side of Muslims in argument of which you will never know anything about... far be it from me to disparage being disappointed to come in here and find people insulting each other, nit picking, over reacting and getting so bent out of shape they can't see straight because I too the initiative to speak up and suggest a manner of doing things that might HELP.

And I'm sure you won't appreciate this either, but frankly, I expected better things. I expected polite people who would listen and consider. I expected people who were interested in furthering the cause of PEACE. Maybe I expected too much and my ideas about Islam and Muslims were too naive. But really... all this name calling and nit picking and insulting and back biting and arguing and pettiness... Really.

You don't even know when somebody's on YOUR SIDE.

Geesh... talk about shooting the messenger. I came here out of love and respect and found a room full of petty little children shooting spit wads at each other and calling names.

If you'll pardon my candor.

And whether or not you care or know it, I will continue to defend Muslims where ever I go, even when it ends up alienating me from my own people.

I don't think anyone has problems with what you say short of where it encroaches upon (Allah swt/ the messenger/ the Quran/ or fellow Muslims).. this is where I personally draw the line..
If that appears intolerant to you, then so be it.. my goal in life is not to foster relations at the expense of my religion.
If you have a difficult time differentiating the whole from the part, then again, there is nothing that I can personally do to remedy that.. But I'd really worry about the state of mind of someone who chooses her way of life as Muslim one day, then undisclosed the next for the simple fact that she doesn't like the opinion of some Muslims.. I really pray that whatever draws you close or away from the faith of your choosing stands on more solid grounds so that you may complete your journey without every fickle event rocking you to the very core!

cheers!

[Jayda]

I never disliked you the person:) (only the posts that declare me blasphemer against Paul)

gracias :)

[caroline]

my goal in life is not to foster relations at the expense of my religion.

my negative comment removed.

[caroline]

I really pray that whatever draws you close or away from the faith of your choosing stands on more solid grounds so that you may complete your journey without every fickle event rocking you to the very core!

cheers!

my negative comment removed... beg your pardon

[NoName55]

gracias :)

Eres bienvenido



(using a translator software application)

[جوري]

What you will probably never understand is that behaving in a hateful, constantly degrading and insulting manner while representing Islam IS and INSULT TO ALLAH.

well, thank God for your presence here as your mind is that much bigger than ours.
Hateful/insulting remarks about my religion will be met with the same, again I am not going to change that to coax someone into liking Islam or converting especially not for converting (I can't think of a worst reason to become Muslim or a faster way to shift between religions) seems very fickle!.. this isn't a dress to make alterations to so that it suits you..
I personally, don't believe I have ever complained of being isolated from my community or being oppressed and it is because I define the lines and limits of what is acceptable!
..
please as a last favor, if you'd complete your altruistic journey on this forum refrain from speaking on behalf of God!

peace!

[Jayda]

Eres bienvenido



(using a translator software application)

lol i can tell... it's a colloquialism usually we just say 'de nada' which means 'of nothing' ... it's kind of nonsense in english.

are you really in mirpur? that is kashmir isn't it?

[جوري]

That's quite a talent you have there. Even your prayers and well wishes are hateful and insulting.

I'm trying to imagine you in a hijab.... for some reason I just can't get my mind around it.

Don't imagine me in your mind.. busy yourself with your own affairs!

cheers

[UmmSqueakster]

As a sincere bit of advice to both muslims and seekers on this thread:

Seeker (aka my dear sister Caroline) - avoid political arguments and discussions as much as possible during your seeking stage. I spent much of my first year or 2 before and in Islam in the yahoo islam chats defending Islam and arguing politics. This did nothing for my iman (faith) and sucked a huge amount of time away that I could have spend learning the deen (religion).

Muslims - be kind to seekers. Remember the example of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (saws) when he was met with opinions that differed from his own. Look at your behavior and ask yourself if you will be happy to review it with Allah (swt) on judgement day when He asks you how you treated someone interested in Islam.

"He was patient in the face of extreme or illogical behavior from strangers. They would sometimes grow angry, and he would calm them, saying, 'Guide them when you see anyone like that.'"

"… He always spoke words that would cause people to love another and come together. He would never frighten or chase them away. He attached great importance to the leaders of all tribes, and was hospitable towards them…"

[UmmSqueakster]

Hateful/insulting remarks about my religion will be met with the same,

peace!

That isn't the sunnah of the Prophet (saws). In fact, he advised the muslims to not insult the idols of the Quaresh, because one of them might in turn insult Allah (swt).

[Woodrow]

One of the most difficult things for all of us, is to keep posts on a forum, in the perspective of being just that. We all make an error if we deliberately use the forum to injury another verbally and we all make an error if we take a comment personal.

Things are often said without full knowledge, seen out of context, or said accidentally.

None of us can ever undo a word that has been read or heard, let us take into consideration that each of us has the ability to cause others pain, and try to not do so.

Let us understand that each of us can unintentionally insult another person's beliefs and to learn to understand the reaction it causes and then do our best not to repeat it.

Now, back to the topic.

[caroline]

well, thank God for your presence here as your mind is that much bigger than ours.
Hateful/insulting remarks about my religion will be met with the same, again I am not going to change that to coax someone into liking Islam or converting especially not for converting (I can't think of a worst reason to become Muslim or a faster way to shift between religions) seems very fickle!.. this isn't a dress to make alterations to so that it suits you..
I personally, don't believe I have ever complained of being isolated from my community or being oppressed and it is because I define the lines and limits of what is acceptable!
..
please as a last favor, if you'd complete your altruistic journey on this forum refrain from speaking on behalf of God!

peace!

My negative comment removed.

Pardon me for my passion.

[جوري]

That isn't the sunnah of the Prophet (saws). In fact, he advised the muslims to not insult the idols of the Quaresh, because one of them might in turn insult Allah (swt).

Yes let me play nice, have them yisibo adeen, make cartoons, call the prophet names, so she or others can become Muslim..
Jazaki Allah khyran.. it all makes sense to me now!

:w:

[NoName55]

salam alaikum @ Janaan

there are seekers then there are fakers and infiltrators, sister, who once busted go on rampages

seeker starts with abc of subject (s)he is seeking to master not by diving in at the deep end and trying to undermine what (s)he purports to be wanting to support.

wasalam alaikum

[جوري]

All I can say is that I really hope you don't work in the public sphere... not when so many people are working so hard to dispel all the negative perceptions of Muslims out there right now.

Sorry.. your hopes are a complete waste..
and thankfully, all I come in contact with have tremendous respect for me and my religion.. I am not going to put all my worth on the opinion of a house wife!


cheers!

[KAding]

What is worse, giving a Muslim pork or giving a vegetarian pork?

[caroline]

"He was patient in the face of extreme or illogical behavior from strangers. They would sometimes grow angry, and he would calm them, saying, 'Guide them when you see anyone like that.'"

"… He always spoke words that would cause people to love another and come together. He would never frighten or chase them away. He attached great importance to the leaders of all tribes, and was hospitable towards them…"

Now THAT is how I had imagined Islam to be...

[Jayda]

just so everybody is clear i'm not a seeker! i started off as a chaser but then i got switched over to keeper to make room for malfoy.

[UmmSqueakster]

Yes let me play nice, have them yisibo adeen, make cartoons, call the prophet names, so she or others can become Muslim..
Jazaki Allah khyran.. it all makes sense to me now!

:w:

:sl:

Sarcasm isn't becoming a believer. Am I saying don't answer? Nope, merely reminding us of how we should answer.

Remember when the people of Taif stoned our beloved Prophet (saws) and Jibreel asked the Prophet (saws) if he would like the people to be destroyed. The Prophet (saws) answered no, because they may one day become muslim.

[Jayda]

What is worse, giving a Muslim pork or giving a vegetarian pork?

i do not mean offense... but that's not something you should have to ask...

[NoName55]

lol i can tell... it's a colloquialism usually we just say 'de nada' which means 'of nothing' ... it's kind of nonsense in english.

are you really in mirpur?

I was there last week for a funeral but ATM I'm in Leeds UK

that is kashmir isn't it?

yes

[ricardo_sousa]

Remember when the people of Taif stoned our beloved Prophet (saws) and Jibreel asked the Prophet (saws) if he would like the people to be destroyed. The Prophet (saws) answered no, because they may one day become muslim.

Lots of people doubt of Muhammad status as a Prophet. But I think nobody denies that Muhammad was a genial politician and leader.

[UmmSqueakster]

salam alaikum @ Janaan

there are seekers then there are fakers and infiltrators, sister, who once busted go on rampages

seeker starts with abc of subject (s)he is seeking to master not by diving in at the deep end and trying to undermine what (s)he purports to be wanting to support.

wasalam alaikum

:w:

Meh, having communicated with Caroline on a one on one basis, I'd caution against making judgments like that.



“Good and evil are not alike. Repel evil with what is better. Then he, between whom and you there was hatred, will become as though he was a bosom friend.” (Quran 41:34)

[caroline]

What is worse, giving a Muslim pork or giving a vegetarian pork?

Good point! I know vegetarians who make their choice on very deep, moral and spiritual grounds.

Hmmm... interesting thought.

[Jayda]

I was there last week for a funeral but ATM I'm in Leeds UKyes

that is interesting... i know they are fiercly autonomous... what is mirpur like? is there a mirpuri language?

[UmmSqueakster]

just so everybody is clear i'm not a seeker! i started off as a chaser but then i got switched over to keeper to make room for malfoy.

Funny, I always pictured you as a beater, and definately not a Slytherin :D

[جوري]

:sl:

Sarcasm isn't becoming a believer. Am I saying don't answer? Nope, merely reminding us of how we should answer.

Remember when the people of Taif stoned our beloved Prophet (saws) and Jibreel asked the Prophet (saws) if he would like the people to be destroyed. The Prophet (saws) answered no, because they may one day become muslim.

Being a Muslim isn't a unidimensional term dear sister, one has to know when to be firm and when to be kind. I will not exchange kind words for a reversion! I am sorry, that is not how it works out.

Muslims come in all flavor and it appears to me unbecoming of a Muslim to reduce another to one term. Abu baker as'sidiq and omar ibn ilkhtab were as different as can be. Even with force or gentility one must recogonize what a situation calls for.. at the end of the day we are all humans using our best judgement, we are not messengers and not sa7aba, thus you handle things your way and I mine..
Jazaki Allah khyran
:w:

[Jayda]

Funny, I always pictured you as a beater, and definately not a Slytherin :D

it was the sorting hat's fault!

[NoName55]

that is interesting... i know they are fiercely autonomous... what is mirpur like? is there a mirpuri language?

what is mirpur like?

just watch a western (cowboys) film and the town you see there is not much different to mirpur

is there a mirpuri language?

yes, it is a corruption of Punjabi and Kashmiri languages (since we border on edge of Punjab

i know they are fiercely autonomous...

no, much of population has emigrated now its full of refugees from India, Afghans and Punjabis

[Jayda]

was there a mirpuri ethnicity or clan before the afghans and punjabis arrived? or is the murpuri identity kind of a breakoff of the two?

[NoName55]

was there a mirpuri ethnicity or clan before the afghans and punjabis arrived? or is the murpuri identity kind of a breakoff of the two?

yes, Jat (and sub-categories) + some actual kashmiris

Jats are originally not from mirpur (but that is almost prehistoric lol) afghans are late arrivals and seem to have taken over as I could hardly find anyone I knew before

[NoName55]

"good" ole' wiki knows everybody

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people

[KAding]

i do not mean offense... but that's not something you should have to ask...

I guess that is where the major disconnect is. Because that is not obvious to me at all. Maybe that is something that more atheists/agnostics have problems with and that is at the root of the problem? The inability to empathize on religious feelings. Simply not being capable of putting oneself in the shoes of a religious person.

Allow me to tell a little anecdote ;). This story reminds me of a small 'family crisis' we had over Christmas :D. In the last few years my sister has turned into something of a devout Christian, while everyone in the family is quite fiercely atheist. Nevertheless we always participate in some of the idolatry and rituals that surround Christmas, so we have a nice Christmas tree and a miniature 'nativity scene' (not sure what it is called in English :(, I mean something like this).

When my brother got home he apparently felt a bit rebellious and decided to show it by turning baby Jesus upside down in his crib :ooh:. He thought it was an innocent jest to show his disapproval of all the religious overtones in the house. But my sister completely freaked out. She was totally upset and after a whole bunch of screaming how the devil had taken over the house she simply left the house to cool off. We weren't even sure if she was even coming back. Eventually she did turn up and apparently had told herself that God taught her to be forgiving, and that is what she did. In the end everything turned out fine and the mood around Christmas table was fine.

Anyway, it just shows how sometimes people that don't believe simply fail to comprehend how important some things are to religious people, even if it is just symbolism. My brother did not have intention to upset or hurt my sister, he would never do that, we all know that, it's just not in his character. For him it was not a serious act. He was unable to foresee this escalation and he felt incredibly bad after my sister had stormed out. Not to say this 'incident' is comparable with the one discussed in this thread, I simply don't know the details, but it might well be. Remember that many non-religious people are essentially handicapped when dealing with religion. They simply fail to comprehend it, it just confuses them.

[Jayda]

yes, Jat (and sub-categories) + some actual kashmiris

Jats are originally not from mirpur (but that is almost prehistoric lol) afghans are late arrivals and seem to have taken over as I could hardly find anyone I knew before

where do Jats come from?

[NoName55]

where do Jats come from?

"good" ole' wiki knows everybody

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people

[Jayda]

gracias i will read this

[*Hana*]

Good point! I know vegetarians who make their choice on very deep, moral and spiritual grounds.

Hmmm... interesting thought.

:muddlehea

Now, why exactly, would you find that interesting? Is one more deserving of respect than another?

Would it be just as amusing to hand an alcoholic vegetarian a pound of bacon and bottle of wine? Or would that just be offensive?

Rather than trying to teach us Muslims how to behave in a manner that is acceptable to you, how about you teaching people to treat others with respect? How about you explain to these idiots how their behavior is not acceptable, how their behavior is offensive rather than telling the offended that they should not be offended.

For whatever reason, that is what you cannot seem to understand. Even when I exaggerated the examples (which I said I did in my very first post), you totally missed the point because you just had to justify this guy's behaviour. You are so focused on wanting to blame the Muslim for being offended, you simply cannot see how this is no different than the other scenarios presented.

Do you not understand this is NOT about Muslims and Islam....it is about justifying bigotry and disrespect REGARDLESS of faith.

I give up. Inshallah, when you have calmed down you will have a better understanding of the point I was trying to make. You don't have to agree with it, but right now, you're nowhere near the purpose of my post. You're more concerned with how bad Muslims look to others and how you are a defender of Islam. :?

Good luck to you.

Hana

[NoName55]

gracias i will read this

de nada wa salam (and peace)

[*Hana*]

I guess that is where the major disconnect is. Because that is not obvious to me at all. Maybe that is something that more atheists/agnostics have problems with and that is at the root of the problem? The inability to empathize on religious feelings. Simply not being capable of putting oneself in the shoes of a religious person.

Allow me to tell a little anecdote ;). This story reminds me of a small 'family crisis' we had over Christmas :D. In the last few years my sister has turned into something of a devout Christian, while everyone in the family is quite fiercely atheist. Nevertheless we always participate in some of the idolatry and rituals that surround Christmas, so we have a nice Christmas tree and a miniature 'nativity scene' (not sure what it is called in English :(, I mean something like this).

When my brother got home he apparently felt a bit rebellious and decided to show it by turning baby Jesus upside down in his crib :ooh:. He thought it was an innocent jest to show his disapproval of all the religious overtones in the house. But my sister completely freaked out. She was totally upset and after a whole bunch of screaming how the devil had taken over the house she simply left the house to cool off. We weren't even sure if she was even coming back. Eventually she did turn up and apparently had told herself that God taught her to be forgiving, and that is what she did. In the end everything turned out fine and the mood around Christmas table was fine.

Anyway, it just shows how sometimes people that don't believe simply fail to comprehend how important some things are to religious people, even if it is just symbolism. My brother did not have intention to upset or hurt my sister, he would never do that, we all know that, it's just not in his character. For him it was not a serious act. He was unable to foresee this escalation and he felt incredibly bad after my sister had stormed out. Not to say this 'incident' is comparable with the one discussed in this thread, I simply don't know the details, but it might well be. Remember that many non-religious people are essentially handicapped when dealing with religion. They simply fail to comprehend it, it just confuses them.

Actually, I completely understand this, and have had similar things happen to me where it was a completely lack of understanding. Those things don't bother me in the least and I just simply explain why it's not a good idea, etc. But, what this guy did was a deliberate act of disrespect. It's not like his family invited him for dinner and the menu contained pork and wine with them not knowing.

Anyway, glad everything worked out in the end and you were able to enjoy a nice dinner.

Hana

[*Hana*]

I just went back to read the article because I assumed I missed the reaction of the Muslim, considering I couldn't remember what it was.

There was no reaction from him. :? Unless I missed that.

So, if he didn't react, I now I have to ask how this turned into be "Muslims shouldn't be so thin skinned" stuff. How do we know it was the Muslim that brought it to the attention of upper management? Maybe, just maybe someone with an ounce of decency was as disgusted as I would have been and reported the incident!

How would opinions change, if at all, if it was determined that the matter was brought to the attention of senior management by fellow officers who disgusted by this act?

Hana

[Jayda]

I guess that is where the major disconnect is. Because that is not obvious to me at all. Maybe that is something that more atheists/agnostics have problems with and that is at the root of the problem? The inability to empathize on religious feelings. Simply not being capable of putting oneself in the shoes of a religious person.

Allow me to tell a little anecdote ;). This story reminds me of a small 'family crisis' we had over Christmas :D. In the last few years my sister has turned into something of a devout Christian, while everyone in the family is quite fiercely atheist. Nevertheless we always participate in some of the idolatry and rituals that surround Christmas, so we have a nice Christmas tree and a miniature 'nativity scene' (not sure what it is called in English :(, I mean something like this).

When my brother got home he apparently felt a bit rebellious and decided to show it by turning baby Jesus upside down in his crib :ooh:. He thought it was an innocent jest to show his disapproval of all the religious overtones in the house. But my sister completely freaked out. She was totally upset and after a whole bunch of screaming how the devil had taken over the house she simply left the house to cool off. We weren't even sure if she was even coming back. Eventually she did turn up and apparently had told herself that God taught her to be forgiving, and that is what she did. In the end everything turned out fine and the mood around Christmas table was fine.

Anyway, it just shows how sometimes people that don't believe simply fail to comprehend how important some things are to religious people, even if it is just symbolism. My brother did not have intention to upset or hurt my sister, he would never do that, we all know that, it's just not in his character. For him it was not a serious act. He was unable to foresee this escalation and he felt incredibly bad after my sister had stormed out. Not to say this 'incident' is comparable with the one discussed in this thread, I simply don't know the details, but it might well be. Remember that many non-religious people are essentially handicapped when dealing with religion. They simply fail to comprehend it, it just confuses them.

hola,

actually i think your example indicates that your brother did understand... he was simply displeased that he actually had to see, the consequences of his actions: his sisters hurt feelings. as you said, he turned it upside down to jest make fun of her beliefs. obviously he wanted to get a rise out of her, or he wouldn't have pranked her.

he just didn't like to be confronted with the result of his actions.

that's adolescent... and it's precisely the same behavior as the cop. now, it might be somewhat more acceptable in a household where everybody is related and there are no weapons involved and (one hopes) everyone knows each other pretty well... but take that disrespectful, provocative and adolescent attitude and put it into a stranger who is allowed to carry a gun and basically tell anybody he wants to what to do.

that's bad...

[KAding]

:muddlehea

Now, why exactly, would you find that interesting? Is one more deserving of respect than another?

Would it be just as amusing to hand an alcoholic vegetarian a pound of bacon and bottle of wine? Or would that just be offensive?

Rather than trying to teach us Muslims how to behave in a manner that is acceptable to you, how about you teaching people to treat others with respect? How about you explain to these idiots how their behavior is not acceptable, how their behavior is offensive rather than telling the offended that they should not be offended.

<snip>

Do you not understand this is NOT about Muslims and Islam....it is about justifying bigotry and disrespect REGARDLESS of faith.

<snip>

Good luck to you.

Hana

This all sounds very nice in theory. And it would be nice if it could work that way. But I think it is very difficult to implement in practice. It is so very hard to draw the line on matters like these. When is something offense? Is two gays kissing in front of a mosque 'offensive'? Is saying Jesus was a false prophet 'offensive'? Is eating meat in front of a vegetarian 'offensive'? And there is the added problem that is is sometimes very hard to understand when something is offensive in a culture or lifestyle that is not your own. I fear a situation where those most easily offended (in general fundamentalist of whatever breed. Note I'm not saying that is the case here!) are going to determine that 'line'. We also have to make sure that religions and other highly organized ways or life are not better protected then other beliefs and lifestyles.

I think a focus on tolerance is a more feasible approach then respect in societies that are so diverse. Making sure everyone is protected against being 'offended' is simply not easy to organize. I think an attitude were people a taught to shrug of idiotic and offensive statements is more productive.

But this is all IMHO of course. Don't be offended ;D.

[Jayda]

have you ever considered the possibility you can't reason everything out... there is also common sense.

[NoName55]

put it into a stranger who is allowed to carry a gun

guns are not carried as a matter of routine but only issued to specially selected personnel on special occasions i.e when they are to go on a raid or protection duties

[KAding]

have you ever considered the possibility you can't reason everything out... there is also common sense.

Yes, I'm probably approaching this too..ehm..analytical! Can't help it! :hmm:

Anyway, I'm not sure you can base rules and laws on 'common sense'. Besides, who's common sense? There is no such thing :sunny:.