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Isambard
01-09-2008, 12:35 AM
Hello.

I've been thinking alot about theistic morality lately and trying to better conceptualize it.

If you wish to aid me, then if you'd be so kind, could you answer these two questions for me.

1. IF I came up to you and handed an essay which as far as you can tell, details a wonderous political, economic, and moral system but was agaisnt what God says according to the Qur'an/Bible etc. Who's side would you take and why?

2. (Assuming you answered God's side in the first Q) Lets say you have two spiritual beings telling you to listen to them. They say the other is evil and that it is an agent of God and the other is an agent of Iblis. What would be your criteria to pick which is which?

Thanks in advance for your replies:D
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ikaj
01-09-2008, 12:41 AM
As a muslim, I believe there is only One God and He knows all, no one knows more than He does.
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ikaj
As a muslim, I believe there is only One God and He knows all, no one knows more than He does.
You havent answered the question...
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جوري
01-09-2008, 12:51 AM
this question has been answered before under 'who created God'
I suspect it is one of the reasons the regulars can't arouse enough enthusiasm for the topic.. try rummaging through old threads, see if your answers lie in their midst-- I suspect they won't be unless they foster your frame of thinking then maybe someone can get back to you preferably the christian crowd..

Muslim thinking should lead to a full stop at the very first point of causality.. there are no sons, daughters or holy spirits in one to fight amongst themselves or be superior to one another!..


cheers
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Mikayeel
01-09-2008, 12:53 AM
well because as humans we dont know what is good or what is right because something which is seen as good in a country could be seen as opposite somewhere else, so there has to be something which knows the answer and knows how to make right judgement. (god)

Oke imagine u walk into a room with alot of paintings and u want to know who painted them. how you going to know that? a beginner might look on the paintings to look for similarities, he painted a tree, on this one a house. but an expert would look closely to the way its painted and see the similarities(because in a way they are the same). same with our creation we are all the same in a way(plants, animals etc) there are so many similarities that some theories suggest we came from one source. so this shows that have been created by just one creator, because if there were many creations, then surely there would of been many styles of creation and things might of not run smooth.

my knowledge is very limited so i anwered to the best of my ability, hope for a sister/brother to correct me or explain it better:)
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ikaj
01-09-2008, 12:54 AM
oh sorry you asked "why"
it's really hard to explain that to someone who doesn't even believe God exists.
i guess because I believe that God is a creator of everything, all laws of physics etc
also God, knows best because he is the one who is the originator and creator of everything...

For you to see my answer as an answer to your question, you have to understand my belief in God.
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Keltoi
01-09-2008, 12:57 AM
"What if" questions really aren't that useful when speaking of the Creator, especially when speaking to someone of the Abrahamic faith. One God, One Truth.
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ikaj
oh sorry you asked "why"
it's really hard to explain that to someone who doesn't even believe God exists.
i guess because I believe that God is a creator of everything, all laws of physics etc
also God, knows best because he is the one who is the originator and creator of everything...

For you to see my answer as an answer to your question, you have to understand my belief in God.
Being a former christian, I understand belief in God.

You answered the first question and I thank you. So now to my second one. Assuming a sort of meta-god poped up. Would he be more right than God classic?
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*Hana*
01-09-2008, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Hello.

I've been thinking alot about theistic morality lately and trying to better conceptualize it.

If you wish to aid me, then if you'd be so kind, could you answer these two questions for me.

1. Is God correct because he is God? That is, if I came up to you and handed an essay which as far as you can tell, details a wonderous political, economic, and moral system but was agaisnt what God says according to the Qur'an/Bible etc. Who's side would you take and why?

2. (Assuming you answered God's side in the first Q) Lets say you somehow met God, but also found out there is a God above him, a Meta-God if you will. Would the meta-god always be correct vs. the now inferior god?

Thanks in advance for your replies:D
1. I wouldn't accept your essay over God's word. First, I already know you're a mere human so, you may be a good writer, but you are not a creator. You are not better or no less than I am. It's not a matter of what seems to be a wonderful society...it's WHY you have the laws you do, WHY your political system is better, etc. I didn't embrace Islam because someone said it was better...it also has to be logical. There has to be reasons and meanings for WHY you did something. It has to be all encompassing with social laws, criminal laws, etc., etc. And, it would have to be written without error, etc., etc., etc.

2. This is difficult to answer because for a believer the idea of a "greater god" is ludicrous. We believe there is none greater, we believe He wasn't created, etc. So, it's like asking "Can God make a rock so big that even He can't lift it?"

Basically the next question would be who created the "lesser god" and what if there was another even greater, greater god. This just doesn't make sense and is definitely not logical. Because, for me, Islam is logical, this is not a concept that I can grasp. Hmmmm, can't really explain what I'm trying to say.

LOL, ok, not sure if that makes sense, but that's my contribution. :p I'll give it more thought and see if I can make my point easier to understand. lol

Peace,
Hana
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
"What if" questions really aren't that useful when speaking of the Creator, especially when speaking to someone of the Abrahamic faith. One God, One Truth.
Expect as I mentioned in my OP, this isnt about the nature of a creator deity. Its about conceptualizing theistic morality.

Basically as I understand it. God is right because he is so powerful. So my hypothetical is would God be as right if there was another God more powerful than he.
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Mikayeel
01-09-2008, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Being a former christian, I understand belief in God.

You answered the first question and I thank you. So now to my second one. Assuming a sort of meta-god poped up. Would he be more right than God classic?
i believe i tried and put it into an answer
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جوري
01-09-2008, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ikaj
oh sorry you asked "why"
it's really hard to explain that to someone who doesn't even believe God exists.
i guess because I believe that God is a creator of everything, all laws of physics etc
also God, knows best because he is the one who is the originator and creator of everything...

For you to see my answer as an answer to your question, you have to understand my belief in God.
He wants to know why the laws of God, over the laws of Isambard..
the simple fact is a divine law should be satisfactory to human nature on both noetic and a spiritual level-- assure security for the whole of society and not just satisfy the individual need!
people have been trying to bypass divine law/justice for ages, because they don't like this or they don't like that. But there is always a burden to that decision until at some point society will cavort in total moral decay under the guise of 'freedom'!

:w:
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ikaj
01-09-2008, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
1. I wouldn't accept your essay over God's word. First, I already know you're a mere human so, you may be a good writer, but you are not a creator. You are not better or no less than I am. It's not a matter of what seems to be a wonderful society...it's WHY you have the laws you do, WHY your political system is better, etc. I didn't embrace Islam because someone said it was better...it also has to be logical. There has to be reasons and meanings for WHY you did something. It has to be all encompassing with social laws, criminal laws, etc., etc. And, it would have to be written without error, etc., etc., etc.

2. This is difficult to answer because for a believer the idea of a "greater god" is ludicrous. We believe there is none greater, we believe He wasn't created, etc. So, it's like asking "Can God make a rock so big that even He can't lift it?"

Basically the next question would be who created the "lesser god" and what if there was another even greater, greater god. This just doesn't make sense and is definitely not logical. Because, for me, Islam is logical, this is not a concept that I can grasp. Hmmmm, can't really explain what I'm trying to say.

LOL, ok, not sure if that makes sense, but that's my contribution. :p I'll give it more thought and see if I can make my point easier to understand. lol

Peace,
Hana
some people are better at explaining than others..i wish i could put it into words like that lol
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 01:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hamada
i believe i tried and put it into an answer
Yeah...I didnt really understand your answer...:okay:
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Mikayeel
01-09-2008, 01:06 AM
loool thats it i need to go on some english courses:P
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Keltoi
01-09-2008, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Expect as I mentioned in my OP, this isnt about the nature of a creator deity. Its about conceptualizing theistic morality.
Conceptualizing theistic morality...

Well, I suppose the question you're posing is whether God's morality is the same as our own? Or whether human morality is better or worse than God's morality?

Since we're throwing around concepts without taking into account the nature of the Creator, here is one I've heard before. If God commanded you to kill an innocent child, would you do it? My answer, absolutely not, because my personal morality would stop me from doing so. Then you must explore where morality comes from. Is it a strictly human mental and emotional effect? Or is it derived as a reflection of God's Will?

If we are speaking about THE God, the One people of faith know, this "what if" scenario is pointless and meaningless, since the nature of God cannot be ignored for the sake of a conceptual question.
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syilla
01-09-2008, 01:51 AM
the answer is easy...

in islamic concept of God...

Allah is always right...


p/s:- :uuh: don't ask me why?
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Conceptualizing theistic morality...

Well, I suppose the question you're posing is whether God's morality is the same as our own? Or whether human morality is better or worse than God's morality?

Since we're throwing around concepts without taking into account the nature of the Creator, here is one I've heard before. If God commanded you to kill an innocent child, would you do it? My answer, absolutely not, because my personal morality would stop me from doing so. Then you must explore where morality comes from. Is it a strictly human mental and emotional effect? Or is it derived as a reflection of God's Will?

If we are speaking about THE God, the One people of faith know, this "what if" scenario is pointless and meaningless, since the nature of God cannot be ignored for the sake of a conceptual question.
Bah!

You contradicted the theory I was putting together!

Im uncertain what you mean by throwing around concepts. Despite the wild imaginings of PA, no I do not have an agenda beyond knowing the answer to the second question. The first one is more of a buffer :D

What I want to find out is if theistic morality is based on rule of the strongest or if its something else. This is easy to answer if you add a more powerful meta God into the equation in the form of a hypothetical.

So, if God told you to kill a child you say you wouldnt do it as it would violate your personal morality. But how do you reconcile the admitted genocides and mass killings God either commanded or did himself in the Bible? Wouldnt what allows you to follow God's will despite all he did in the past allow you to kill that child?
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
He wants to know why the laws of God, over the laws of Isambard..
the simple fact is a divine law should be satisfactory to human nature on both noetic and a spiritual level-- assure security for the whole of society and not just satisfy the individual need!
people have been trying to bypass divine law/justice for ages, because they don't like this or they don't like that. But there is always a burden to that decision until at some point society will cavort in total moral decay under the guise of 'freedom'!

:w:
I love how you reach a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever. More impressive is that evidence for my motives is both abundant and clear.

I kindly ask you to stay out of this thread as it would seem it is beyond you.
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
the answer is easy...

in islamic concept of God...

Allah is always right...


p/s:- :uuh: don't ask me why?
Ah but the why is the most interesting part!

Is Allah always right because he is the mightiest, or is there something else...?
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syilla
01-09-2008, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Ah but the why is the most interesting part!

Is Allah always right because he is the mightiest, or is there something else...?
because it is mentioned in the quran .... :uhwhat
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
because it is mentioned in the quran .... :uhwhat
So because God says so?

This then goes back to the first question as to why you wouldnt listen to me as opposed to Allah. Id "say so" as well. Im assuming there something more no?^o)
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جوري
01-09-2008, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
I love how you reach a conclusion without any evidence whatsoever. More impressive is that evidence for my motives is both abundant and clear.

I kindly ask you to stay out of this thread as it would seem it is beyond you.
I don't believe I was addressing you with the above, did I?.. further this is an Islamic forum, I'll write where ever it suits me!
I understand your little outbursts to be a form of over-compensation ! try not to make your inadequacies so obvious to the rest of our guests!


cheers
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syilla
01-09-2008, 02:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
So because God says so?

This then goes back to the first question as to why you wouldnt listen to me as opposed to Allah. Id "say so" as well. Im assuming there something more no?^o)
you are really weird... :exhausted
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
you are really weird... :exhausted
Merely trying to understand thru asking questions:D
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syilla
01-09-2008, 02:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
So because God says so?

This then goes back to the first question as to why you wouldnt listen to me as opposed to Allah. Id "say so" as well. Im assuming there something more no?^o)
for sure we believe everything that is mentioned in the quran...

i guess you can never understand the word of 'honesty'. probably doesn't exists in 'your' dictionary.
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't believe I was addressing you with the above, did I?.. further this is an Islamic forum, I'll write where ever it suits me!
I understand your little outbursts to be a form of over-compensation ! try not to make your inadequacies so obvious to the rest of our guests!


cheers
Ah, so you were lying to others about me then. Very nice.

Now if you are quite done trying to de-rail my thread, Ill go back to addressing those who merit a response through intellectual honesty.

Chau
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truemuslim
01-09-2008, 02:54 AM
Allah HAS to be right... he created the earth, heavan, US, our food, our things to build our homes... our muscles... our brownies...lol... everything so how can he make all that then turn out wrong?
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
for sure we believe everything that is mentioned in the quran...

i guess you can never understand the word of 'honesty'. probably doesn't exists in 'your' dictionary.
Eh? I know what honesty means.

Im asking you why believe one text over another. If its because God says so, then why God?
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by truemuslim
Allah HAS to be right... he created the earth, heavan, US, our food, our things to build our homes... our muscles... our brownies...lol... everything so how can he make all that then turn out wrong?
I never said if it turned out to be wrong. Just trying to find by what criteria theists determine authoritativeness of their deity(ies).
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syilla
01-09-2008, 02:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Eh? I know what honesty means.

Im asking you why believe one text over another. If its because God says so, then why God?
how do you know that person is an honest person?
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truemuslim
01-09-2008, 02:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
I never said if it turned out to be wrong. Just trying to find by what criteria theists determine authoritativeness of their deity(ies).
oh ok... just wait a sec... i saw woodrow looking at this thread..i kno he got the answer...
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جوري
01-09-2008, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Ah, so you were lying to others about me then. Very nice.
I can't lie about something that is obvious to the naked eye.. even the last poster addressed you as dishonest in your approach!

Now if you are quite done trying to de-rail my thread, Ill go back to addressing those who merit it through intellectual honesty.

Chau

lol.. yeah good luck having a wide following in your circuitous route. If a thread on pedantic bluff and recycled rhetoric should merit 'intellectual honesty'.. if I had a dime for every time you wrote that ..

and that is ciao oh leader of the pack and holder of the flame ;D
you know if you were looking for a torrential exist, least you can do is be familiar with the words you want to use for a powerful delivery!

cheers
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 03:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syilla
how do you know that person is an honest person?
Honesty means simply stating facts and views as best one truly believes them to be.

Im still not sure where you are going with this as I didnt imply dishonesty on anyones part.
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syilla
01-09-2008, 03:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Honesty means simply stating facts and views as best one truly believes them to be.

Im still not sure where you are going with this as I didnt imply dishonesty on anyones part.
right!.... Right simply stating facts and views as best one truly believes them to be.
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Woodrow
01-09-2008, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Hello.

I've been thinking alot about theistic morality lately and trying to better conceptualize it.

If you wish to aid me, then if you'd be so kind, could you answer these two questions for me.

1. Is God correct because he is God? That is, if I came up to you and handed an essay which as far as you can tell, details a wonderous political, economic, and moral system but was agaisnt what God says according to the Qur'an/Bible etc. Who's side would you take and why?

2. (Assuming you answered God's side in the first Q) Lets say you somehow met God, but also found out there is a God above him, a Meta-God if you will. Would the meta-god always be correct vs. the now inferior god?

Thanks in advance for your replies:D
this is one of the first questions brought up in both Debating 101 and Phylosophy 101.

The point being if something looks like a question and sounds like a question it does not mean it is a question.

A logical as that sounds as a question, it is actually an excercise in nonsensical recognition.

This is like asking the classic question of:

If a chicken and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half.
How many pancakes would it take to shingle a dog house?

The first part of the Question:

1. Is God correct because he is God?
Now to a person that is not educated or has very limited knowledge, that looks like a question. But is it? Is it a question or is a nonsence phrase under the grammatical formation of a question.


Place any other quality in place of correct, let the quality be either true, false or nonsence. The question does not pass the scrutiny of being able to be replaced with other qualities and sound rational.

For example:


Is God tall because he is God?

Is God purple because he is God?

Is God strong because he is God?


Any quality can be placed in there and the problem is we still do not have a question, we have a statement that is based upon cause and effect when what we have is state of being and neither a condition of cause and effect.

Question 2 is a fallacy. By definition of a supreme God, there can only be one God, so question two is a moot point as it is an impossibility by definition.

Children playing in philosophy 101 only serve to illustrate their own ignorance by their inability to formulate legitimate questions. The simplest fool can ask more questions than the wisest man can answer.
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truemuslim
01-09-2008, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
this is one of the first questions brought up in both Debating 101 and Phylosophy 101.

The point being if something looks like a question and sounds like a question it does not mean it is a question.

A logical as that sounds as a question, it is actually an excercise in nonsensical recognition.

This is like asking the classic question of:

If a chicken and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half.
How many pancakes would it take to shingle a dog house?

The first part of the Question:



Now to a person that is not educated or has very limited knowledge, that looks like a question. But is it? Is it a question or is a nonsence phrase under the grammatical formation of a question.


Place any other quality in place of correct, let the quality be either true, false or nonsence. The question does not pass the scrutiny of being able to be replaced with other qualities and sound rational.

For example:


Is God tall because he is God?

Is God purple because he is God?

Is God strong because he is God?


Any quality can be placed in there and the problem is we still do not have a question, we have a statement that is based upon cause and effect when what we have is state of being and neither a condition of cause and effect.

Question 2 is a fallacy. By definition of a supreme God, there can only be one God, so question two is a moot point as it is an impossibility by definition.

Children playing in philosophy 101 only serve to illustrate their own ignorance by their inability to formulate legitimate questions. The simplest fool can ask more questions than the wisest man can answer.

LOL that chicken thing made me laugh... lol lol llool....

btw bout time u came... yeah u betta have had a long post if u took that long... i almost got everyones hopes up that u postin here for nutin...
lol jk...

btw yes that does make more sense tho. is god purple because he god? lol
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
<snipped for brevity>
Now to a person that is not educated or has very limited knowledge, that looks like a question. But is it? Is it a question or is a nonsence phrase under the grammatical formation of a question.

Place any other quality in place of correct, let the quality be either true, false or nonsence. The question does not pass the scrutiny of being able to be replaced with other qualities and sound rational.

For example:


Is God tall because he is God?

Is God purple because he is God?

Is God strong because he is God?

So because you now relegate 'God' to the perfect abstract, all questions regarding him nonsensical?

That doesnt make sense. As a muslim, you hold certain attributes toward God that other religions may not. ie. That is all-loving, merciful etc.

Just because he is God tells us nothing as to the why. Im asking the why behind why God is the de-facto authority


Question 2 is a fallacy. By definition of a supreme God, there can only be one God, so question two is a moot point as it is an impossibility by definition.

Children playing in philosophy 101 only serve to illustrate their own ignorance by their inability to formulate legitimate questions. The simplest fool can ask more questions than the wisest man can answer.
^^So God is right because he is God eh? Youve answered my question.

"Rule of the strongest" would seem to be behind your ethical model.

And per your little coment, I expected better from you Woodrow especially as Im doing the same attributions as believers. Im merely asking why.
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snakelegs
01-09-2008, 03:35 AM
God is beyond right and wrong, correct and incorrect
God is one - how can there be a more "meta"?
questions don't make sense to me. sorry. :muddlehea
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 03:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
God is beyond right and wrong, correct and incorrect
God is one - how can there be a more "meta"?
questions don't make sense to me. sorry. :muddlehea
Guess I was thinking more along the lines of gnosticism. They believed in a Demiurge (Regular God) and a super God.

Christian gnostics were the most interesting as some groups claimed that Yahwey was the lesser God. He created the Earth and all that, but is nothing compared to the Super God.

Anyways, my question was to find out why theists personally feel God is right. Im getting the feeling there is a negative bias toward me because of both my question and my non-religious status.
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adeeb
01-09-2008, 03:41 AM
there is one God..and no more question on the oneness of God

if u re looking for God, u must look for something different from creation...

Allah has explained it in surah al ikhlas:

1. Say: He is Allah, the One;

2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;

3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

4. And there is none like unto Him.
:clever:
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جوري
01-09-2008, 03:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
this is one of the first questions brought up in both Debating 101 and Phylosophy 101.

The point being if something looks like a question and sounds like a question it does not mean it is a question.

A logical as that sounds as a question, it is actually an excercise in nonsensical recognition.

This is like asking the classic question of:

If a chicken and a half can lay an egg and a half in a day and a half.
How many pancakes would it take to shingle a dog house?

The first part of the Question:



Now to a person that is not educated or has very limited knowledge, that looks like a question. But is it? Is it a question or is a nonsence phrase under the grammatical formation of a question.


Place any other quality in place of correct, let the quality be either true, false or nonsence. The question does not pass the scrutiny of being able to be replaced with other qualities and sound rational.

For example:


Is God tall because he is God?

Is God purple because he is God?

Is God strong because he is God?


Any quality can be placed in there and the problem is we still do not have a question, we have a statement that is based upon cause and effect when what we have is state of being and neither a condition of cause and effect.

Question 2 is a fallacy. By definition of a supreme God, there can only be one God, so question two is a moot point as it is an impossibility by definition.

Children playing in philosophy 101 only serve to illustrate their own ignorance by their inability to formulate legitimate questions. The simplest fool can ask more questions than the wisest man can answer.
I'd hate to pull an atheist and offer you a boisterous applause, but that was brilliant. I'd not have put so much effort into it personally. But I suppose at times that is what the situation calls for..

Jazaka Allah khyran

:w:
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Woodrow
01-09-2008, 03:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
^^So God is right because he is God eh? Youve answered my question.
The statement is not a statement. It is a discription of a state of being. The statement "God is correct because he is God" is almost a legitimate statement. A more correct statement would be :Correctness is an attribute of God(swt)" anyhow the statement "Is God correct because he is God" is nonsense. As it is asking is an attribute an attribute because it is the attribute of something.

"Rule of the strongest" would seem to be behind your ethical model.
Rule of attribute of the definition. The question is far removed from the concept of ethics, it is in context of an attribute being part of the definition.

And per your little coment, I expected better from you Woodrow especially as Im doing the same attributions as believers. Im merely asking why.
I did not intend that comment to be directed at you alone. It is directed at everybody here. This is a very common error made by a large segment of people. The building of debate and arguments upon a statement that has no proof because the statement itself is flawed logic.

I believe all of us can see ourselves in that statement at one time or another. If we feel the statement applies to us, then we must learn the basics of debating, before we engage in debates.
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adeeb
01-09-2008, 03:47 AM
^^ mature and superb in debate...

masha Allah...
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Woodrow
01-09-2008, 03:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Guess I was thinking more along the lines of gnosticism. They believed in a Demiurge (Regular God) and a super God.
True and it would make sense if you were debating gnostics

Christian gnostics were the most interesting as some groups claimed that Yahwey was the lesser God. He created the Earth and all that, but is nothing compared to the Super God.
The one God(swt) is the only True God that meets the definition of God. A lesser God is not a god by any name, simply eliminated by the definition of God(swt) as used by Theists.

Anyways, my question was to find out why theists personally feel God is right. Im getting the feeling there is a negative bias toward me because of both my question and my non-religious status.
There is negative bias against many of your statements. but there is not or should not be any bias against you. You have a valid right to your concepts. But, remember the majority of us here have just as much right to our concepts which often differ from yours.

If I were to join a forum for "Aardvaark Lovers" I suspect I would run into similar flak if my posts extolled the virtues of hamsters over asrdvarks.
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The statement is not a statement. It is a discription of a state of being. The statement "God is correct because he is God" is almost a legitimate statement. A more correct statement would be :Correctness is an attribute of God(swt)" anyhow the statement "Is God correct because he is God" is nonsense. As it is asking is an attribute an attribute because it is the attribute of something.

I guess I was trying to be more religiously broad in my question. My apologies. I know in some religions, Correctness isnt an attribute of G(g)od(s).

I was also looking for a differentiation between God and Satan(Christian variety). They both seem to have incredible knowledge and metaphysical powers. In some religions, simlar beings to Satan are gods in themselves.

I guess to better relate it to the main pop. of this forum, is it the absolutes that Allah encompasses that make him God, vs. a powerful, yet limited Iblis?

Rule of attribute of the definition. The question is far removed from the concept of ethics, it is in context of an attribute being part of the definition.

Alrighty

I did not intend that comment to be directed at you alone. It is directed at everybody here. This is a very common error made by a large segment of people. The building of debate and arguments upon a statement that has no proof because the statement itself is flawed logic.

I believe all of us can see ourselves in that statement at one time or another. If we feel the statement applies to us, then we must learn the basics of debating, before we engage in debates.
Well it wouldnt be flawed outside the Abrahamic model...but point taken. Ill try to be clearer and more specific in the future :)
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aamirsaab
01-09-2008, 11:05 AM
:sl: / howdy
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
1. Is God correct because he is God? That is, if I came up to you and handed an essay which as far as you can tell, details a wonderous political, economic, and moral system but was agaisnt what God says according to the Qur'an/Bible etc. Who's side would you take and why?
I would read both first. However, since Islam has convinced me that it is the correct path, I am going to take God's word and not yours :) The main reason why I think God is correct is because His words (in the Quran) convince me that it is the truth.

2. (Assuming you answered God's side in the first Q) Lets say you somehow met God, but also found out there is a God above him, a Meta-God if you will. Would the meta-god always be correct vs. the now inferior god?
Ok let's go take the hypothetical road; In the unlikely event that there is a higher being than God (aka ''metaGod'' - which kinda sounds funny now that I read it out loud), I would probably take the metaGod on the condition that He has proved it to me and there is no shadow of a doubt that He is not the ''real'' deal. However, since I firmly believe that there is only one God I would not take the road to higher being numero dos because I know that it is nothing more than a trick or test.

Actually, now that I think of it, this is actually one of the tests God has ordained for us - at one point in the time of mankind, dajjal will come on to the earth and claim that HE is God - he will attempt to prove this by performing a variety of miracles including execution and then resurrection. Those who are true to their religion will not be swayed by his miracles and will turn to God - not dajjal, imposing as the G-man. So with that, I can say that the answer to question 2 would be a firm no :)
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ikaj
01-09-2008, 11:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl: / howdy

- at one point in the time of mankind, shaytan will come on to the earth and claim that HE is God - he will attempt to prove this by performing a variety of miracles including execution and then resurrection.

wow i didn't know that...scary :ooh:
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aamirsaab
01-09-2008, 11:14 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by ikaj
wow i didn't know that...scary :ooh:
Sorry, that's supposed to be dajjal not shaytan.
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ricardo_sousa
01-09-2008, 11:25 AM
I believe in Sauron because it appears in Lord of The Rings. For me Tolkien was under God divine influence, so "The Lord of The Rings" is my "Bible".

And let me tell you something, if there is a God out there, he is doing a terrible job and should get fired.
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aamirsaab
01-09-2008, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
I believe in Sauron because it appears in Lord of The Rings. For me Tolkien was under God divine influence, so "The Lord of The Rings" is my "Bible".
You do know that sauron got owned by a hobbit, right?

And let me tell you something, if there is a God out there, he is doing a terrible job and should get fired.
You've probably not understood the bit about life being a test then, eh? ;D

Anywho...
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ricardo_sousa
01-09-2008, 11:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You do know that sauron got owned by a hobbit, right?
The Hobbit is the Prophet of the Ring, and Sauron the Dark Satain. God instructed Tolkien to write the story of the foundations of humanity.

format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
You've probably not understood the bit about life being a test then, eh? ;D
yes and that´s why for me religions are just a brain wash ideologies. It is so good to a ruler to say: "die in name of religion, because you will be reward in heaven!".. Like the Islamic Terrorists, "die and you will get a bunch of virgins", but the leaders didn´t kill them selfs, preferring having 4 wifes in this beautiful planet...

I understand the concept, it good to think that it is more than this life, but that is just for maintain the people under control, while the rulers and powerful families have great life's in this world.
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Isambard
01-09-2008, 02:38 PM
*Ive modified the questions. Hopefully now theyll make more sense :)
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Keltoi
01-09-2008, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
*Ive modified the questions. Hopefully now theyll make more sense :)
That is a little better...

1. Honestly, people of faith are living in systems that are probably not in line with God's Will. However, as long as these systems give us the right to worship freely and do not require immortal actions, then there is a coexistence. If the essay you described did not give people of faith the right practice freely, it would have to be opposed.

2. As for the other hypothetical, it still doesn't really make sense from the perspective of a Christian, and probably not a Muslim either. God is God, there is no "other" god out there. I don't know about the other people on the thread, but the question really doesn't have a point for me. What exactly are you trying to get at by these questions anyway?
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truemuslim
01-09-2008, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

Sorry, that's supposed to be dajjal not shaytan.
lol u confused me there for a sec... they do say shaytan can come in human forms tho... i dunno tho...or care... but yeah dajjal is gonna come on the last day then esa (jesus) is gonna slaughter him or something like that... before that they say that dajjal is gonna get married and after forty years have a kid with one eye while jesus gets married and i think has kids... dunt know... im not even sure if this is true or not cause alot of people are liers these days anyway...so...but another thing is that 30 other people will come and claim that they are more prophets again i dunt kno if thats true or not... if u want more just see my thread of the signs of the last day (my third thread when i just came)

salam :w:
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