Do none muslims agree that the quran has no contradictions?

[Mikayeel]

Salaam 3alekum.

I have always wondered if the none muslims agreed upon that the quran is in a perfect state, free from any contradicts, accurate scientific proofs etc... since this forum has a very large number of none muslims so i though this is the place to ask:)..
thanks alot.
peace

[Mikayeel]

hmm this been approved late? anyway i would like some answers, keep this as peacefull as possible , i just want to know if u think a yes and why, or a no and why:) thanks

[minaz]

If a non-muslim thought the Qu'ran was in a "perfect state" then they would probably not still be a non-muslim (maybe an aethiest though :P)

[Mikayeel]

If a non-muslim thought the Qu'ran was in a "perfect state" then they would probably not still be a non-muslim (maybe an aethiest though :P)

salam bro, yep that is very rightly said, but i find it hard to understand because it is CLEARLY in a none contradicting state

who ever gets a quran and reads it?? will agree... no rocket science or nothing:)

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[minaz]

To be honest I have never came across a non-muslim who has read any part of the Qu'ran- infact I rarely hear Muslim friends ever randomly go "yeh played a bit of Playstation last night then read some of surah Yasin". The first Qu'ranic word given to the Prophet (PBUH) was infact "read". And I guess many of us prefer our, T.V.'s Laptops Palystations over reading.

But I do hope this thread does find a non-muslim who has read something of the Qu'ran!

[Mikayeel]

yea thats rightly said agian:(, if (most) of the none muslims actually decided to read bits of the quran they go online, and type in the quran, and prob end up in a website that present the quran wrongly(sooo many of these website nowadays)
and they just give up....
but inshallah this thread will encourage people to go out and read some of it:)

[snakelegs]

well, i've read it twice and didn't see any contradictions, but then, i wasn't searching for them either.
as far as accurate scientific proofs etc, i don't expect a holy book to be a science book. as far as i'm concerned, science and religion are 2 different systems.

[Pygoscelis]

I agree with the first person who responded to this thread. Don't expect non-muslims to see the quran as anything more than folklore. To expect us to see it any other way is to set yourself up for disapointment. We see the Quran just as you see Homer's Odessy or the native american story of "how the eagle got its wings".

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

I agree with the first person who responded to this thread. Don't expect non-muslims to see the quran as anything more than folklore. To expect us to see it any other way is to set yourself up for disapointment. We see the Quran just as you see Homer's Odessy or the native american story of "how the eagle got its wings".

Not to go off topic or anything, but it's just amazing how the Qur'an takes the words right out from their mouths:

{When Our Verses are recited to him, he says: "Tales of the men of old!"} [al-Qalam; 15]

{And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Signs they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."} [al-An'aam; 25]

[جوري]

Not to go off topic or anything, but it's just amazing how the Qur'an takes the words right out from their mouths:

{When Our Verses are recited to him, he says: "Tales of the men of old!"} [al-Qalam; 15]

{And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Signs they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."} [al-An'aam; 25]

Sob7an Allah, I was going to quote similar verses but figured what a great waste of my time..

1 الأنعام 6 25 وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ يَسْتَمِعُ إِلَيْكَ وَجَعَلْنَا عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ أَكِنَّةً أَنْ يَفْقَهُوهُ وَفِي آذَانِهِمْ وَقْرًا وَإِنْ يَرَوْا كُلَّ آيَةٍ لا يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَا حَتَّى إِذَا جَاءُوكَ يُجَادِلُونَكَ يَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِنْ هَذَا إِلا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
2 الأنفال 8 31 وَإِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُنَا قَالُوا قَدْ سَمِعْنَا لَوْ نَشَاءُ لَقُلْنَا مِثْلَ هَذَا إِنْ هَذَا إِلا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
3 النحل 16 24 وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ مَاذَا أَنْـزَلَ رَبُّكُمْ قَالُوا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
4 المؤمنون 23 83 لَقَدْ وُعِدْنَا نَحْنُ وَآبَاؤُنَا هَذَا مِنْ قَبْلُ إِنْ هَذَا إِلا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
5 الفرقان 25 5 وَقَالُوا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ اكْتَتَبَهَا فَهِيَ تُمْلَى عَلَيْهِ بُكْرَةً وَأَصِيلا
6 النمل 27 68 لَقَدْ وُعِدْنَا هَذَا نَحْنُ وَآبَاؤُنَا مِنْ قَبْلُ إِنْ هَذَا إِلا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
7 الأحقاف 46 17 وَالَّذِي قَالَ لِوَالِدَيْهِ أُفٍّ لَكُمَا أَتَعِدَانِنِي أَنْ أُخْرَجَ وَقَدْ خَلَتِ الْقُرُونُ مِنْ قَبْلِي وَهُمَا يَسْتَغِيثَانِ اللَّهَ وَيْلَكَ آمِنْ إِنَّ وَعْدَ اللَّهِ حَقٌّ فَيَقُولُ مَا هَذَا إِلا أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
8 القلم 68 15 إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِ آيَاتُنَا قَالَ أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ
9 المطففين 83 13 إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِ آيَاتُنَا قَالَ أَسَاطِيرُ الأَوَّلِينَ

6.25] Of them there are some who (pretend to) listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the Signs, they will not believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee; they (but) dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients."


8: 31] When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."

16:24] When it is said to them, "What is it that your Lord has revealed?" They say, "Tales of the ancients!"

23:83] "Such things have been promised to us and to our fathers before! They are nothing but tales of the ancients!"

25:5] And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: And they are dictated before him morning and evening."

27:68] "It is true we were promised this, - we and our fathers before (us) - these are nothing but tales of the ancients."

46:17] But (there is one) who says to his parents, "Fie on you! do ye hold out the promise to me that I shall be raised up, even though generations have passed before me (without rising again)?" And they two seek Allah's aid, (and rebuke the son): "Woe to thee! have Faith! for the promise of Allah is true." but he says, "This is nothing but tales of the ancients!"

83:13] When Our Signs are rehearsed to him, he says, "Tales of the Ancients!"

:w:

[thirdwatch512]

I have read the Qu'ran quite a few times in English and French. I tried reading it in Spanish but my spanish was a bit rusty, so it got complicated lol

If by contradictions, you mean like one place says "X was 2 years old" and another says "X was 14 years old" then no, I do not see those in Qu'ran. But then again, I do not see those in many books.

As for errors.. Denying evolution. And I think some historical errors (like the Exodus, Jews out of Egypt, etc.) So yeah, I see some errors!

[جوري]

You'll need some minimal understanding of science first in order to prove error in the Quran on a theological, textual and scientific levels.. as for the latter of historical errors of the Jews.. pls do elaborate, I am sure it will prove amusing!


cheers

[جوري]

To the OP.. your thread is some what of an analogue to this one
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...afiroon-2.html

perhaps therein might lie the answers you are looking for.. I thought Br. Ansar had done a very good job with it from a historical point of view.. that is if people would read it and forgo the usual platitudes!

:w:

[جوري]

another great thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...ons-quran.html

[ranma1/2]

Salaam 3alekum.

I have always wondered if the none muslims agreed upon that the quran is in a perfect state, free from any contradicts, accurate scientific proofs etc... since this forum has a very large number of none muslims so i though this is the place to ask:)..
thanks alot.
peace

no. of course there have been plenty of threads discussing the "miracle, science, problems ectt" in the quran.

[Woodrow]

The fact that a person is non-Muslim is verification the person either has not read the Qur'an or has read it, but does not believe it is the true word of Allaah(swt).

I know several Christian Ministers who are well versed in the Qur'an. Yet, they choose to remain Christian, so I can only assume they do not believe it to be the word of Allaah(swt). One in particular has pointed out to me several times that parts of it disagree with the Bible and they called that a contradiction. I gave up any further theological discussions with her. we have no common agreement on points of reference.

[guyabano]

Honestly, no. The quaran has also a lot of contradictions same like the bible. Muslims, neither Christians, of course like to hear it, and of course both claim to have the perfect book. Muslims just spend more time to refute them. There comes a good example to my mind: My father once told me: Never buy a car from a brand, who have huge sparepart shops, as they tend to wreck fast and spend more time in the repair shop than on the street. Well, in Islam, some people spend more time to refute than to pray. Get the similarity?

Here are a few examples which look like they are contradictions. But I'm pretty sure, some will now become upset and curse me and immediately start to refute them:

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
   
   1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
   2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
   3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
   4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
   5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
   
   1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
   2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
   3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
   4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
   
   1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
   2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
   3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
   
   1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
   2. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
   3. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
   
   1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
   2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
   3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
   4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
   
   1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
   2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
7. Is wine consumption good or bad?
   
   1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
   2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
   3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

Now, please refrain from bashing. I just answered to the question

[جوري]

you have answered with a cut and paste.. and we can only offer the same...
all alleged contradictions answered here, for more protracted version visit previous link(s)

peace

Ansar Al-'Adl

REFUTATION OF THE ALLEGED INTERNAL CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'AN

These responses have all been uploaded onto the main site here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...contradictions

Update
I am now keeping a Table of Contents, so people can easily find their answers.

Introduction (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
1. The Inheritance Laws in the Qur'an (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
2. The Number of Angels Speaking to Mary pbuh (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
3. On The Length of God's Days (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
4. The Number of Gardens in Paradise (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
5. The Number of Groups on the Day of Resurrection (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
6. Who Takes the Soul at the Time of Death (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
7. The Number of Wings on Angels (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
8. The Number of Days Taken to Create the Universe (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
9. Was Creation Quick or Slow? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
10. Which was Created first, the Heavens or the Earth? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
11. Were the Heavens and the Earth called together, or ripped apart for Creation? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
12. The Time Taken to Destroy the Aad (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
13. What Was Man Created From? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
14. Where is Allah? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
15. On The Origin of Calamity (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
16. The Mercy and Guidance of Allah (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
17. Will there be Inquiry in Paradise? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
18. Are Angels Protectors? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
19. Is Everything Devoutly Obedient to Allah? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
20. Does Allah forgive Shirk? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
21. Did Abraham commit Shirk? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
22. Worshipping the Same or a Different God? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
23. The Sequence of Events in the Children of Israel Worshipping the Calf (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
24. The Guilt of Aaron in the Children of Israel Worshipping the Calf (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
25. Was Jonah cast on the Desert Shore? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
26. The Reference to the Injeel and the Time of Moses (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
27. Concerning the Food for the Inhabitants of Hell (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
28. Forgiveness for Slander of Chaste Women (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
29. How the Disbelievers will recieve their record on Judgement Day (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
30. Can Angels Disobey? - The case of Iblis (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
31. Can Angels Disobey? - The case of Harut and Marut (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
32. Angel Gabriel and the 'Holy Spirit' (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
33. Confirming the Old Revelation or Substituting it (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
34. The Qur'an's Pure Arabic and the Presence of Foreign Words (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
35. The Qur'an being contained in the Earlier Revelations (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
36. Lot's Wife being called "An Old Woman" (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
37. The Response of Lot's Nation to His Call (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
38. Is the Punishment and Mercy of Allah Arbitrary? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
39. Did Abraham Smash The Idols? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
40. The Fate of Noah's Family (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)
41. Was Noah Driven Out? (Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an)

The Above are responses to a list raised by Anti-Islamists:
(We will be adding more responses as time progresses, insha'Allah)

_____________________________________

Quote:
Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".


God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]


When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?


When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]


Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?


Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.


Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.


Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].


Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.


Begetting and Self-sufficiency. A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.


Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.


Did Jesus Die already? Surah 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).


One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.


From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Surah 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.


Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].

Who suffers loss if Muhammad was wrong? Sura 34:50 commands Muhammad to say, "If I go astray, I go astray only to my own loss," which is a severe factual error in the Qur'an as well as contradicting the teaching of the Qur'an in a number of other verses.
Allah, Adam, and the Angels. There are a great number of problems and inconsistencies between the several accounts of Adam's creation, Allah's command to prostrate before Adam, Satans refusal, etc.

Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24], Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6]. This article also raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc.

How many mothers does a Muslim have? Only one [58:2, the woman who gave birth and none else], or two [4:23, including the mother who nursed him], or at least ten [33:6]?

To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.

Does Allah command to do evil? No [7:28, 16:90]. Yes [17:16, ]. Two examples are also given, where Allah clearly commanded or permitted indecent actions [2:229-230, 2:187].

Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.

Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?

Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?

Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.

When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?

When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]

Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15, also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?

Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].

Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].

Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.

Will Allah disgrace Muslims? On the day of judgment Allah will not humiliate or disgrace the Prophet and those who believe in him [S. 66:8]. However, 19:71 says that everyone will enter Hell, and 3:192 states that whomsoever Allah sends to Hell, is disgraced thereby.

Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.

Is Jesus God or Not? In Sura 16:17, 20-21 and S. 25:3 we find a criterion to distinguish the true God from false gods. Yet, according to S. 3:49, 55, 4:157-158, 5:110, 6:2, and 38:71-72 Jesus satisfies the definition and should be considered true Deity.

Can there be a son without a consort? Allah cannot have a son without a consort [Sura 6:101], but Mary can have a son without a consort because that is easy for Allah [Sura 19:21].
Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.

Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.

Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.

Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).

One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.

From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.
Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].

Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.

Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc., see article for details].

Most of them have already been answered, and most are very silly. I'll get around to refuting them insha'Allah. Until then, I encourage other members to have a go at them.

Good resources:
http://www.understanding-islam.org/r...asp?sscatid=89
http://www.answering-christianity.co...n/quranerr.htm
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

Salaam
__________________
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"Surely I was sent to perfect the qualities of righteous character" [Musnad Ahmad, Muwatta Mâlik]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These also answer them:
http://www.islamic.org.uk/internalc.html
http://answermistakes.tripod.com/
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/4796...adictions.html
http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/f...arch/cont.html

[Trumble]

Salaam 3alekum.

I have always wondered if the none muslims agreed upon that the quran is in a perfect state, free from any contradicts, accurate scientific proofs etc... since this forum has a very large number of none muslims so i though this is the place to ask:)..
thanks alot.

We have had several discussions on this recently. 'Contradictions' (and there are some) can be explained away sometimes plausibly, and sometimes rather less so. It just depends who you ask which is which. The Qur'an includes no 'scientific proofs', accurate or otherwise. There are assorted claims that certain passages contain knowledge that could not have been known in 8th century Arabia (e.g. regarding 'embryology') and claims that some passages - usually totally out of context - contain knowledge that wasn't known anywhere until recently, such as relativity, etc. A few such claims remain interesting co-incidences but most simply do not stand up to serious examination. People see and believe what they want to see and believe - although that can be applied both ways, of course.:smile:

[guyabano]

A lot of reading, thank you. Guess what, I really read it.
I really accept the excuse, that 'translations of the quaran' might be wrong or not always translated in the right context.
But in that case, can people of other religions not also use this excuse?
So which book is right? Orare they are all right or all false?
I think, we will never find out.

[Mikayeel]

Honestly, no. The quaran has also a lot of contradictions same like the bible. Muslims, neither Christians, of course like to hear it, and of course both claim to have the perfect book. Muslims just spend more time to refute them. There comes a good example to my mind: My father once told me: Never buy a car from a brand, who have huge sparepart shops, as they tend to wreck fast and spend more time in the repair shop than on the street. Well, in Islam, some people spend more time to refute than to pray. Get the similarity?

Here are a few examples which look like they are contradictions. But I'm pretty sure, some will now become upset and curse me and immediately start to refute them:

1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
   
   1. "Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
   2. "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
   3. "The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
   4. "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
   5. "He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).
2. Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
   
   1. "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
   2. "And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
   3. "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
   4. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).
3. The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
   
   1. "And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
   2. "When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
   3. "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).
4. Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
   
   1. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
   2. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
   3. The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).
5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?
   
   1. "Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
   2. "The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
   3. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
   4. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).
6. Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
   
   1. "We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
   2. Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).
7. Is wine consumption good or bad?
   
   1. O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90).
   2. (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).
   3. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

Now, please refrain from bashing. I just answered to the question

oke these are just pasted from '' I WANT TO PROVE THAT THE QURAN IS WRONG NO MATTER WHAT'' website, i have to go to college now so i havent got time to answer them all,

the one about the wine, if the people who wrote this only read the actuall quran they they would of find this here

(43) Facing one another on thrones, (44) Round them will be passed a cup of pure wine,— (45) White, delicious to the drinkers, (46) Neither will they have Ghoul (any kind of hurt, abdominal pain, headache, a sin) from that, nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom. Surah As saaffat

so the wine in the heaven is not like the wine in the earth??

[snakelegs]

'' I WANT TO PROVE THAT THE QURAN IS WRONG NO MATTER WHAT'' website

;D ;D

[truemuslim]

^^^ LOOOL its sad how they actually have sites like that for real... some even got warnings for muslims that if they go they will leave non muslim....i came in muslim and left muslim...hehe... and yeah not all those that guyabano posted are true ppl get random things outa no where these days...

[جوري]

I think of religion like a medical licensing exam..

there isn't a wrong answer per se but a most correct answer

take for instance testing for a pheochromocytoma..
you could potentially measure, urinary metanephrine and VMA levels , you could do CT scan to visualize a mass, you could do an MRI, you can do a iodine-131-meta-iodobenzylguanidine or even an Octreotide scan .. bottom line is none of them are wrong, but one is most correct for the situation an a person needs to be very well studied in the matter...
I personally think one should handle all his affairs with the same tenacity, be it here or for the here after.. seems like everything builds on it.. it wouldn't be good to make the wrong decision....

Anyhow it is nearly 4am and I am going to sign off..

cheers

[truemuslim]

^^^ thats much better.... ooh its 3:30 AM here..lol

[guyabano]

ok ok ok, I see what's going on, ladies !

Stop to bash already on a Monday Morning or else I will be bad mood for the rest of the week. These lines come indeed from a website, as I didn't read the Quaran completely. And even if I would read it, I would read the German translation as it's more easy for me. But then again, this one may also be not acurate.
The only thing I notice it the arrogancy of some muslims to simply deny all possibilities of contradictions without even making the effort to explain WHY it is wrong.
Never forget: Perfection doesn't exist !

[Mikayeel]

hey guyabano, am in a break now (10 min break between my biology lesson) but all these contradictions mentioned above have a CLEAR answer to them and inshallah i will state them later on... peace till then

[Keltoi]

ok ok ok, I see what's going on, ladies !

Stop to bash already on a Monday Morning or else I will be bad mood for the rest of the week. These lines come indeed from a website, as I didn't read the Quaran completely. And even if I would read it, I would read the German translation as it's more easy for me. But then again, this one may also be not acurate.
The only thing I notice it the arrogancy of some muslims to simply deny all possibilities of contradictions without even making the effort to explain WHY it is wrong.
Never forget: Perfection doesn't exist !

Don't worry about it, believe me, you aren't the only person to use cut and paste from "contradiction" sites on this forum. There are plenty of websites devoted to "contradictions" in the Bible that have been pasted hundreds of times on different threads.

[AvarAllahNoor]

If a non-muslim thought the Qu'ran was in a "perfect state" then they would probably not still be a non-muslim (maybe an aethiest though :P)

Haha so true,

I have read the Quran, and it has it's moments, nice piece of writing. But nothing grasps me like my own Scripture Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. (Having read Bible, Rig Veda & Torah as well) Made interesting reading though. :D

[Gator]

Not to go off topic or anything, but it's just amazing how the Qur'an takes the words right out from their mouths:

{When Our Verses are recited to him, he says: "Tales of the men of old!"} [al-Qalam; 15]

{And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Signs they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."} [al-An'aam; 25]

This is one of the reasons I doubt religious texts. They spend a lot of time talking about how bad things are going to be for non-believers and how non-believers will respond. This struck me in the opening lines of the Quran -

[1.5] Keep us on the right path.
[1.6] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

They are anticipating the criticisms and trying to blunt them. To me it comes across as though they have nothing to back up their argument so they just try to use a debating tool to turn it around.

In my opinion, if they had the TRUTH, then they wouldn't have to resort to this tactic.

Just my two cents to help you see the way I see things and am not saying I have the TRUTH either.

Thanks.

[Mikayeel]

TO guyabano so called contradiction from a so called website...

What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?
"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," (96:2).
"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape, (15:26).
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (3:59).
"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35).
"He has created man from a sperm-drop; and behold this same (man) becomes an open disputer! (16:4).

First, consider point number 4, read these three translations
Pickthall: Doth not man remember that We created him before, when he was naught?
Shakir: Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing?
Yusuf Ali: But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing

By reading Pickthall and Shakir too, you will understand that Allah is saying that We created man and he did not even exist before that. He was nothing. It is obvious that if God created everything then there must have been a time when everything we see was "nothing," including humans.

As for 2 (sounding clay) and 3 (dust) this is what the first human being Adam (peace be upon him) was created from; and what is clay but dust and water? As we are all progeny of our father Adam, we are essentially made of the same ingredients and this can be observed when a human dies and his body decays!

As for 5 (sperm-drop), it is obviously reproductive fluid necessary for the embryo to be formed. And 1 (congealed blood) is one of the stages of the developing embryo! The different stages have been described together in the Quran as well in many verses. As in:
It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot(congealed blood) ; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then let you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom (40:67)
I wonder, if three bakers were to come visit the author of this list and one were to say: "Bread is made from flour," the next were to say "bread is made from dough" and the third were to say: "Bread is made from wheat," if he would consider this a "contradiction" too?
If two physicists now came along and one said "bread is made from atoms" and the other said "bread is made from molecules," would this be an even further "contradiction"?

The embryological studies in the Quran are in fact are too advanced for anybody to have known 1400 yrs ago. Understanding this, many embryologists in the past decades have embraced Islam recognizing that the source of this knowledge must be divine. Christians (not laymen but world-renowned specialists of embryology) have repeatedly attested to the accuracy of the embryological details in the Quran and Hadith,

Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning?
"We took the Children of Israel across the sea: Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in insolence and spite. At length, when overwhelmed with the flood, he said: "I believe that there is no god except Him Whom the Children of Israel believe in: I am of those who submit (to Allah in Islam). (It was said to him): "Ah now!- But a little while before, wast thou in rebellion!- and thou didst mischief (and violence)! This day shall We save thee in the body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!" (10:90-92).
Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence: and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!" So he resolved to remove them from the face of the earth: but We did drown him and all who were with him," (17:102-103).

Pharaoh was killed by drowning. If you read the first verse, in it Pharoah after knowing that he is dying accepts Islam bur the doors of repentance are closed on a person once his death ‘starts’. Allah is admonishing him saying that We shall not save you from death and the punishment after it today, but your body shall be saved and preserved so that it may become a sign for all those after you. This is confirmed from numerous other verses and Prophetic sayings. Pharaoh’s body lies in the Cairo Museum today!

Now consider this article:

“Dr. Maurice Bucaille is an eminent French surgeon, scientist, scholar and author of "The Bible, The Quran and Science" which contains the result of his research into the Judeo-Christian Revelation and the Quran. It is a unique contribution in the field of religion and science.

Being an outstanding Scientist, he was selected to treat the mummy of Merneptah (Pharaoh), which he did. During his visit to Saudi Arabia he was shown the verses of the Holy Quran in which Allah says that the dead body of the Pharaoh will be preserved as a "Sign" for posterity.

An impartial scientist like Dr. Bucaille, who (being also a Christian) was conversant with the Biblical version of Pharaoh's story as being drowned in pursuit of Prophet Moses. He was pleasantly surprised to learn that unknown to the world till only of late 20th century, the Holy Quran made definite prediction about the preservation of the body of that same Pharaoh of Moses' time. This led Dr. Bucaille to study the Holy Quran thoroughly after learning the Arabic language and accepted Islam as the truth.

The body of Pharaoh is now lying in a Cairo museum as an open miracle of the Holy Quran, for those who pay heed to the signs of Allah.”

And that piece of historical information about the destiny of Pharaoh's corpse wasn't known by anyone of the humans when the Holy Quran came down and even after it came down by several centuries it was also unknown but it was declared in the book of Allah on the tongue of the uneducated prophet, which proves that the source of this knowledge is the inspiration from Allah. Advanced post-mortem techniques show that the body did not stay in the water for a long time and is very well-preserved.

Tony, these alleged ‘contradictions’ are from Matt Slick. What he was trying to do was turn people away from the Quran. What he has in his ignorance done is point out the miracles of the information of the embryo and Pharaoh in the Holy Quran.

Allah says: "And We have indeed simplified [the comprehension of] this Qur'an for remembrance, so is there any that will remember and be admonished?" (54:17)

And he says: “….(In) behaving proudly in the land and in planning evil; and the evil plans shall not beset any save the authors of it….” (35:43)

And also: “We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things?” (41:53)

These are the short and straight forward answers. If you have any doubts/confusions about what I have written, I shall provide you with addresses of websites where these matters have been explained in more detail Inshallah. May Allah guide you. (Aameen)

The first Muslim was Muhammad? Abraham? Jacob? Moses?
"And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah in Islam," (39:12).
"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me." When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe." (7:143).
"And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam," (2:132).

They were all muslims my friend:)

Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of (one)God and obedience to His law. All these above messenger used to do so:)

Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

Allah’s decrees can be changed by none but Allah himself. Obviously Allah can abrogate an order in one revelation by sending another revelation (that of course during the time the Quran was being revealed). There is no contradiction here. Those who consider this a contradiction are like those atheists who ask absurd questions like “If Allah can do everything, can He make a stone too heavy for Him to lift?” I think it is clear enough.

Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed," (4:48). Also 4:116
The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority," (4:153).

look at this website for a very clear answer !! http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...article&aid=30

i hope this makes it clear, and my answers yes are cut and paste:) from wiser brothers and sisters

[guyabano]

Yes, these answers are very good explained, even I get the feeling, that it is not always the question which is always answered. Duh, sounds weird ??

No, seriously, the question was, who was the first muslim? And you answer me they were all muslims. Ermm, but that didn't answer the question.

And this kind of refutations go through all the questions. I get answers, sure, but somehow, it's never the precise answer to a precise question.

It's the same with the wine. Wine is wine, no muslim can now pretend, there are different sorts of wines.

[Pygoscelis]

I can't speak to contradictions within the Quran as I have not studied it extensively.

I can speak to the general contradiction of the idea of a holy book though. If an all powerful God wished to be known, that God would be known. There would be no need for midlemen or messengers such as prophets or holy books. We would simply know what we are meant to know and that would be that. This would not interfere with free will as we would still be free to obey or disobey the commands of said God.

The existence of the Quran, Bible, and other holy books means that either they are works of fiction and the Gods they depict do not exist or that said Gods do exist but do not wish to be perfectly known by all. The holy books seem to conflict with that.

[Mikayeel]

Yes, these answers are very good explained, even I get the feeling, that it is not always the question which is always answered. Duh, sounds weird ??

No, seriously, the question was, who was the first muslim? And you answer me they were all muslims. Ermm, but that didn't answer the question.

And this kind of refutations go through all the questions. I get answers, sure, but somehow, it's never the precise answer to a precise question.

It's the same with the wine. Wine is wine, no muslim can now pretend, there are different sorts of wines.

wait, the one about the wine,,, the quran says the wine in this world we are not allowed to drink. and the wine in the paradise is made delicious with no intoxicants soo uhmm.... do u agree that we are talking about ''THIS LIFE'' and ''PARADISE''??

About the fuzz ur making about who was the first muslim i hope a wiser brother or sisters answers u soon.. :)

[glo]

oke these are just pasted from '' I WANT TO PROVE THAT THE QURAN IS WRONG NO MATTER WHAT'' website,

;D ;D

These cut-and-paste posts annoy me too.
I mean, anybody can visit Answer-Christianity or Answer-Islam and cut and paste such articles.
(Of course, they are used both ways: One says: 100 reasons why Jesus cannot be God. The other: 100 reasons why the Qu'ran is not the word of God. etc. etc.)

Personally, I refuse to visit such sites.
We have to remember that these debates between Islam and Christianity are 1400 years old! There is nothing that hasn't been debated and discussed already, possibly a million times. None of us are going to come up with a new revelation!

Instead I enjoy understanding how people interpret their own faith, how they apply it and how they live it. I love to explore the human element behind other religions.
If I wanted to know what they scholars say, I would look in other places, not in a discussion forum such as LI.
And as it happens, I like it here better! :D

Peace

[Keltoi]

Leave it to Glo to spread rational thought and harmony...:)

[Jayda]

Salaam 3alekum.

I have always wondered if the none muslims agreed upon that the quran is in a perfect state, free from any contradicts, accurate scientific proofs etc... since this forum has a very large number of none muslims so i though this is the place to ask:)..
thanks alot.
peace

hola Hamada,

i have read the quran but that was well over a year ago. i do not believe that the quran is free from contraditions, nor do i believe in the scientific or mathematic miracles that muslims believe exist in the quran. i think there are many internal contradictions within the quran, and contraditions between what the quran says and what is in fact true in the outside world. i also have a difficult time trying to understand what muslims mean by 'perfect' when they talk about the quran... sometimes they say it means there are not contradictions, sometimes they say it means there is miraculous knowledge and sometimes they say it means it is written in a poetic or impressive way in the original arabic, sometimes it is a combination of all of these things...

que Dios te bendiga

[جوري]

Maybe you can point out the contradictions that 'you've' found?
or we can wait until you find a special site from google..

And of course you'd have a difficult time understanding.. It is expected :sunny:

cheers

[Jayda]

Maybe you can point out the contradictions that 'you've' found?
or we can wait until you find a special site from google..

And of course you'd have a difficult time understanding.. It is expected :sunny:

cheers

hola,

i don't know what google has to do with anything, but i'd prefer to not discuss specifics with you. this isn't the appropriate setting. i was somewhat surprised that muslims think non muslims believe the quran is perfect or non contradictory... why would we remain something other than muslim if that were so?

que Dios te bendiga

[Whatsthepoint]

IMHO, the Quran is not free from error and it does include certain contradictions. As it has ben proven many times on hese board, discussing them is totally useless.
I do not think the Quran is miracolous in any way. It does contain some interesting word repetition, which are partially intentional and partially cincidence. As for the scientific miracles... I don't think the verses in question are miraculous in any way. Interesting yes, but no.

[Mikayeel]

hola,

i don't know what google has to do with anything, but i'd prefer to not discuss specifics with you. this isn't the appropriate setting. i was somewhat surprised that muslims think non muslims believe the quran is perfect or non contradictory... why would we remain something other than muslim if that were so?

que Dios te bendiga

Hola, Jayda

So if at one stage in your life you see that the quran is contradicting free and that the scientific miracles are correct would you then convert into a muslim?

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

Hola, Jayda

So if at one stage in your life you see that the quran is contradicting free and that the scientific miracles are correct would you then convert into a muslim?

que Dios te bendiga

hola

that is an excellent question, i don't think anybody here has asked me that before. i do not believe it would make a difference... unless there were some way to reconcile the things mohamed taught with Catholic theology i do not see any way i would accept him as a prophet, and accepting mohamed as a prophet is central to islam.

my name is annette btw, i don't think i interact with you very much here so i am pleased to make your acquaintance

que Dios te bendiga

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Alleged Contradictions in the Qur'an

[جوري]

hola,

i don't know what google has to do with anything, but i'd prefer to not discuss specifics with you. this isn't the appropriate setting. i was somewhat surprised that muslims think non muslims believe the quran is perfect or non contradictory... why would we remain something other than muslim if that were so?

que Dios te bendiga

There are many reasons people choose to remain 3la dalalihim!

I am pretty sure you don't want to discuss specifics, the reasons are only too obvious. That being said however, if you are going to write with bravado, be prepared to back it up or keep your comments where they can only work to assuage your private doubts!


cheers

[chacha_jalebi]

the only reason people get confused with contradictions is . . .

1 - they just want to believe it :mmokay:

2 - read a wrong translation

there are no contradictions in the Quraan, when it says he created from a clot or created from clay, thats not a contradiction, its just common sense!

its like me saying i have a eye with a eyeball inside it! to have a eye ball i have to have a eye innit

same way to have a person you 1st gotta have clot, then when the person is created in the womb its the clay bit kickin in! so its not a contradiction, its just further improves the correctness of the Quraan, that back in those days the Quraan is mentioning stuff that science has only discovered today

[ummsara1108]

Hello/Assalam Alakuim, I am a non muslim, and I have read some parts of the Koran...

But to give an answer to your ? no they don't believe it is perfect, just like you believe yours is the one they do too...

[Yerpon]

... the question was, who was the first muslim? ...

Hi guyabano,

The first Muslim in the history was Adam (may peace be upon him!), who was also the first prophet of God and the first human and lived many thousands years ago. The true followers of all prophets of God were also Muslims. Muhammad (may peace be upon him!) was the first Muslim among his own people.

... who was the first muslim? ...

For an answer to your claim, click this.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Regarding the OP's question: Obviously, someone who believes the Qur'an is perfect would already be a Muslim.

The tradition of belief in the perfection of the Qur'an is almost as old as Islam itself, so any rational argument is rather pointless in the face of it at this stage. People will believe what they want to believe.

It's interesting to hear of a book that large numbers of people consider to be perfect, so I've read the Qur'an several times over the years. I've seen nothing in it that could not have been the work of human hands, to be honest, and so, for that reason among many others, remain unconvinced.

Incidentally, I'm not sure about exactly how a "perfect" text could even exist.
How would its perfection be assessed? Surely a perfect text would have to be equally effective on all readers? This is clearly not the case with the Qur'an. While I'm sure that many people have read it and converted to Islam, many readers haven't.

The embryological studies in the Quran are in fact are too advanced for anybody to have known 1400 yrs ago. Understanding this, many embryologists in the past decades have embraced Islam recognizing that the source of this knowledge must be divine.

Could you name ten of them?

An impartial scientist like Dr. Bucaille, who (being also a Christian) was conversant with the Biblical version of Pharaoh's story as being drowned in pursuit of Prophet Moses. He was pleasantly surprised to learn that unknown to the world till only of late 20th century, the Holy Quran made definite prediction about the preservation of the body of that same Pharaoh of Moses' time. This led Dr. Bucaille to study the Holy Quran thoroughly after learning the Arabic language and accepted Islam as the truth.

Thank you for sharing this article with us. Do you have any evidence to show that Bucaille actually did become a Muslim? (I'm not denying it happened, because I don't know, but has he ever actually said this publicly?)

Peace

[snakelegs]

maybe perfect = free of contradictions?
not sure.
as i said before, i didn't find any contradictions, but i wasn't looking for them either.

[Mikayeel]

hola

that is an excellent question, i don't think anybody here has asked me that before. i do not believe it would make a difference... unless there were some way to reconcile the things mohamed taught with Catholic theology i do not see any way i would accept him as a prophet, and accepting mohamed as a prophet is central to islam.

my name is annette btw, i don't think i interact with you very much here so i am pleased to make your acquaintance

que Dios te bendiga

hola anette, nice talking to you, my name is hamad, but people call me hamada:).

[Jayda]

hola anette, nice talking to you, my name is hamad, but people call me hamada:).

it is nice to meet you hamad :)

[ranma1/2]

the only reason people get confused with contradictions is . . .

1 - they just want to believe it :mmokay:

2 - read a wrong translation

there are no contradictions in the Quraan, when it says he created from a clot or created from clay, thats not a contradiction, its just common sense!

its like me saying i have a eye with a eyeball inside it! to have a eye ball i have to have a eye innit

same way to have a person you 1st gotta have clot, then when the person is created in the womb its the clay bit kickin in! so its not a contradiction, its just further improves the correctness of the Quraan, that back in those days the Quraan is mentioning stuff that science has only discovered today

can you point us to the "right" translation.

[جوري]

http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-...1049602&sr=8-1

or learn Arabic..
either way I know it was a rhetorical question on your part, I doubt you actually have interest in a debate from a read/learned perspective..

cheers

[Woodrow]

can you point us to the "right" translation.

No there are only a few that are less wrong than the others. I just finished a debate with a person about the problem in trying to translate any written version of either Arabic, Hebrew or Arabic.

all three of them only use a few consonants for writing those words and those consonanats only give a root of what could possibly be many different words. The oral recitation are a better source for trying to do an accurte translation. But I have not seen any proficient reciters with translation skills.

The best alternative would be to read several translations while listening to a recitation and by the tone of the words try to feel the projected mood of the reciter and use that to see which translation fits the mood of the words. It is a slow process but the overal result is you will gain a better understanding than by just reading one translation.

[Jayda]

if the quran is so intimately tied to the language that seemingly nothing of its 'divine nature' can be carried into other languages how can you say this is not an exclusively arab religion?

[minaz]

if the quran is so intimately tied to the language that seemingly nothing of its 'divine nature' can be carried into other languages how can you say this is not an exclusively arab religion?

The same way in which one could say that:
Jesus (a Jew) was sent by god/ "is god", to save the Jewish people. However he came to teach gods/his word to the whole of humanity. He was based in the Middle East and those around him spoke the local language (Hebrew/Aramaic- i'm not too sure what language the people around him spoke). Therefore the first ever Bible must be in this langauge, as the majority of those who witnessed Jesus could only express what they saw/heard or even repeat what Jesus did/said in hebrew/aramaic.

The Qu'ran does have importance in the language it has been written in, but even the straight English translation can greatly benefit the reader.

[جوري]

eh. that is the sort of question that is asked by folks who want to compensate for this

'I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.' (Matthew 15:24)

Hence every one of the famous twelve disciples of Jesus was an Israelite Jew. The one biblical passage where Jesus is supposed to have told his disciples to 'Go and preach unto all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.' (Matthew 28:19), commonly quoted to prove the Gentile mission as well as the Trinity, is not found in any pre-sixteenth century manuscript and is thus considered 'a pious fraud'.

:w:

[Keltoi]

The same way in which one could say that:
Jesus (a Jew) was sent by god/ "is god", to save the Jewish people. However he came to teach gods/his word to the whole of humanity. He was based in the Middle East and those around him spoke the local language (Hebrew/Aramaic- i'm not too sure what language the people around him spoke). Therefore the first ever Bible must be in this langauge, as the majority of those who witnessed Jesus could only express what they saw/heard or even repeat what Jesus did/said in hebrew/aramaic.

The Qu'ran does have importance in the language it has been written in, but even the straight English translation can greatly benefit the reader.

Actually that is false. The disciples spoke Greek, and they wrote in Greek. That doesn't mean they didn't also speak Aramaic, but the langauge of commerce and writing during this period was Greek. Brought about by the Hellinistic world Alexander the Great created.

[جوري]

Why indeed are there any Greek words in the "Aramaic Scriptures?" The short answer is that you were working with the "Pe****to" which is otherwise known as the West Palestinian "Pe****ta" that was made to conform to the pre-Christian Septuagint of the Greek church. We know that Jesus did not speak Greek because the Aramaic speaking people in the time of Jesus considered it sinful to speak any other language. This had to be true because the Aramaic Estrangelo Script was the lingua franca in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Aramaic in this script is similar to Arabic and this was the language of commerce and industry. A growing number of scholars now recognize that Jesus spoke this form of Aramaic, not Greek. The square letter Aramaic in Hebraic characters came much later. (See "Western Christian Scholars Awaken to Truth" in the Table of Contents on the Aramaic Bible Society Website). See Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History", first published in 1928! Also, "The Age of Faith", Will and Ariel Durant's "The Story of Civilization", Vol. 4.

[جوري]

After all, the entire New Testament has come down to us in Koine Greek, a dialect of Jesus’ day. However, almost all scholars agree that the mother tongue of the Jews in Israel was not Greek. As we will see, the New Testament records various words written in the spoken language and then transliterated and translated into Greek.
Aramaic

http://www.ccsom.org/languageofjesus/

[Keltoi]

After all, the entire New Testament has come down to us in Koine Greek, a dialect of Jesus’ day. However, almost all scholars agree that the mother tongue of the Jews in Israel was not Greek. As we will see, the New Testament records various words written in the spoken language and then transliterated and translated into Greek.
Aramaic

http://www.ccsom.org/languageofjesus/

The "mother tongue" of the Jewish people in Palestine was Aramaic, but the language of commerce was Greek, just as it was in the Rome. There was even a rebellion during this time period called the Maccabean Revolt, which came about because some thought too many of the high priests were becoming "Hellenists". Anyone doing business in Palestine during this period would have at least had a passing knowledge of Koine Greek. I'm sure many conversations between Christ and His disciples occurred in Aramaic, but there were many instances in the NT where Jesus spoke to individuals who would not have spoken Aramaic, i.e, Pontius Pilate, the Centurion, and others.

Adding to that, the writers of the Gospels would have also had knowledge of both Aramaic and Greek, but Greek was the language of most writing during this time period, and they too wrote in Greek.

[جوري]

If you believe that Jesus was/is God, you'll believe anything.. after all God should be versed in all tongues in the universe he created.. even if he couldn't tell if a tree bore fruit in the earth he fashioned, or took some private time to pray to himself in the Garden of Gesthemanehe, he should in the very least be trilingual!..
I say whatever rocks your world..

cheers

[Trumble]

I'm lost, PA. You first argue that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Greek (which nobody is disputing anyway) and then try and support your case with a book that argues he in fact spoke Hebrew and not Aramaic! I'll refrain from any comments about reckless Googling..

Keltoi explained why Greek was used by the Gospel authors. In addition it is an indisputable fact that whoever wrote them, and who/whatever 'inspired' then by far the best language to reach the maximum possible audience (which was presumably the idea) was Greek. Had they been written in Aramaic (or Hebrew) Christianity would be just a footnote in history.

[جوري]

I'm lost, PA.

consult with a map!

You first argue that Jesus spoke Aramaic and not Greek (which nobody is disputing anyway) and then try and support your case with a book that argues he in fact spoke Hebrew and not Aramaic! I'll refrain from any comments about reckless Googling..

You ought to pay a visit to the good www.ccsom.org along with various other sites and have a talk with them about the confused state of christianity and why most aren't in agreement with our dear member keltoi...
I know however, we can't all hold doctorates on googling the way you do, be it to debunk everything from the coins of king Offa to undermining people's thesis, it has undoubtedly left us all in envy of your index finger and PI work!

cheers

[snakelegs]

consult with a map!


You ought to pay a visit to the good www.ccsom.org along with various other sites and have a talk with them about the confused state of christianity and why most aren't in agreement with our dear member keltoi...
I know however, we can't all hold doctorates on googling the way you do, be it to debunk everything from the coins of king Offa to undermining people's thesis, it has undoubtedly left us all in envy of your index finger and PI work!

cheers

know that you have caused an innocent person, not even yet finished with morning (!) coffee to be delivered unsuspectingly to calvary chapel website!
i don't know how you can sleep at night!! :raging::raging::raging:

[MaiCarInMtl]

i have not read the tnire thread (just the first page), but I just wanted to say that I'm currently at Surah 7 or 8 (sorry, the last 2 weeks have been busy so I haven't had the time to continue my reading), and so far, so good. I find it explains things a lot more than the Bible or the Torah.

[جوري]

know that you have caused an innocent person, not even yet finished with morning (!) coffee to be delivered unsuspectingly to calvary chapel website!
i don't know how you can sleep at night!! :raging::raging::raging:

Using ambien imsad

[Keltoi]

consult with a map!


You ought to pay a visit to the good www.ccsom.org along with various other sites and have a talk with them about the confused state of christianity and why most aren't in agreement with our dear member keltoi...
I know however, we can't all hold doctorates on googling the way you do, be it to debunk everything from the coins of king Offa to undermining people's thesis, it has undoubtedly left us all in envy of your index finger and PI work!

cheers

You might want to actually link to something that supposedly makes your case...I don't have time to search the whole website in hopes of finding what you're referring to.

As for these scholars who disagree that Greek was in widespread use during this time period...well, I would love to see some evidence of that.

[جوري]

references were quoted you in my two earlier posts. All you need is to scroll back!

cheers

[Trumble]

references were quoted you in my two earlier posts. All you need is to scroll back!

I seem to be having a bad day. Help me out; which references are these? www.ccsom.org/languageofjesus says

We see evidence in the New Testament that Greek was indeed spoken in first century Israel. A number of Greek inscriptions have also been found in the land from this period (a result of the conquests of Alexander the Great in the fourth century BC). Greek for centuries had been the international language of the Ancient Near East including Israel.

[جوري]

I seem to be having a bad day. Help me out; which references are these? www.ccsom.org/languageofjesus says

you ought to keep going..

However, almost all scholars agree that the mother tongue of the Jews in Israel was not Greek. As we will see, the New Testament records various words written in the spoken language and then transliterated and translated into Greek.

this I quote from a christian site, which has to jusify why their bible is in Greek.
I highly doubt Jesus spoke to his disciples or to the Jews he was trying to preach in Greek
323 BISHOPS OF NICENE [on majority vote] APPROVED THE "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" and "VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST" to Mary. Jesus Christ declared to be "GOD"—THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST" [today's "Spirit"].
followed by
350–400 NEW TESTAMENT CANON VERSION. The first twenty-seven [27] Books. A revision of the ORIGINAL total of forty-five [45] Books.

from the death of their God to 323 AD anyone can claim anything about what he preached and what he spoke. Keltoi's subjective views aren't shared by the majority least of which christians who claim as cited above that the NT was recorded in the spoken language, transliterated then translated into Greek!

Hope your day goes better from this point fwd.
cheers

[Keltoi]

you ought to keep going..


this I quote from a christian site, which has to jusify why their bible is in Greek.
I highly doubt Jesus spoke to his disciples or to the Jews he was trying to preach in Greek
323 BISHOPS OF NICENE [on majority vote] APPROVED THE "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" and "VIRGIN BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST" to Mary. Jesus Christ declared to be "GOD"—THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST" [today's "Spirit"].
followed by
350–400 NEW TESTAMENT CANON VERSION. The first twenty-seven [27] Books. A revision of the ORIGINAL total of forty-five [45] Books.

from the death of their God to 323 AD anyone can claim anything about what he preached and what he spoke. Keltoi's subjective views aren't shared by the majority least of which christians who claim as cited above that the NT was recorded in the spoken language, transliterated then translated into Greek!

Hope your day goes better from this point fwd.
cheers

You're making a non-point. Very few dispute the probability that Christ spoke Aramaic. You seem to be latching on to the issue of what language the Gospels were written as opposed to another language that was spoken. In all probability both languages were spoken by Christ and His disciples, not to mention a large portion of the Jewish people in Palestine. The Gospels were recorded in Greek, as that language was the preferred method of writing during this period.

What exactly is your point?

[جوري]

the point is, the bible as you know it today, isn't what was spoken to the people or the disciples.. what you have is a nice work of Greek mythology with some random truths, of whatever was originally upheld in the original tongue before paul and your council got to it.

You maintain that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek, but you have no proof of it save for wishful thinking!

cheers

[Keltoi]

the point is, the bible as you know it today, isn't what was spoken to the people or the disciples.. what you have is a nice work of Greek mythology with some random truths, of whatever was originally upheld in the original tongue before paul and your council got to it.

You maintain that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek, but you have no proof of it save for wishful thinking!

cheers

It's called historical evidence...meaning historians and archeologists have more than sufficient evidence to state that the Jews in Palestine during the time of Christ were exposed to the Hellenistic Greek world the same as Egypt..you know that country right next door? Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it...it's called exposure to historical realities.

[جوري]

It's called historical evidence...meaning historians and archeologists have more than sufficient evidence to state that the Jews in Palestine during the time of Christ were exposed to the Hellenistic Greek world the same as Egypt..you know that country right next door? Wishful thinking has nothing to do with it...it's called exposure to historical realities.

exposed to Greek isn't historical evidence that, that is the language Jesus spoke or his disciples recorded their scriptures in. Any Arab Christian will actually contend on your above statement as a farce not 'historical evidence', in an attempt to give a middle eastern religion a western appeal!
To modern day clusters of Hispanics who live in the very heart of where the English language is spoken, can't communicate in a language other than spanish.. there need not even be evidence or scholars recording that Americans speak English, it has to do with the individual not the culture!

Jesus did not speak Greek because the Aramaic speaking people in the time of Jesus considered it sinful to speak any other language. This had to be true because the Aramaic Estrangelo Script was the lingua franca in Palestine at the time of Jesus. Aramaic in this script is similar to Arabic and this was the language of commerce and industry. A growing number of scholars now recognize that Jesus spoke this form of Aramaic, not Greek. The square letter Aramaic in Hebraic characters came much later. (See "Western Christian Scholars Awaken to Truth" in the Table of Contents on the Aramaic Bible Society Website). See Eusebius' "Ecclesiastical History", first published in 1928! Also, "The Age of Faith", Will and Ariel Durant's "The Story of Civilization", Vol. 4.

The Bible and the Aramaic Language

"Many of our Assyrian people in America unfortunately are unaware of the key which we hold to the Scriptures and especially to the New Testament through the Aramaic language that our Lord Jesus Christ spoke and preached
during His Mission on Earth." (Patriarch of the Church of the East, His Holiness the late Mar Shimun in an address to the Assyrians in Modesto, California, USA)

The Holy Text, the official text, of the Assyrian Church of the East is the Pe****ta Aramaic (also sometimes referred to as Pe****ta) which is the rich and authoritative Version of Aramaic language. 'Pe****ta' means 'simple', 'straight', 'uncomplicated', 'sincere'; it would be reasonable to infer from the combination of these meanings that here the word 'Pe****ta' denotes 'Genuineness'-------genuine form of Aramaic. (And of course this does not mean that other variants of the language in question are not genuine.)

As regards to the holding of "The Key to the Scriptures", credit ought to be given to the Church of the East and the martyrs thereof who throughout gave their lives for the preservation of the original scriptures handed down by the Apostles, from one generation to another, kept in the security of the Church. Let me again quote from His Holiness, the late Mar Shimun from His letter to a publisher on 4th April, 1957---He says: "...as the Patriarch and the Head of
the Holy Apostolic and Catholic Church of the East, we wish to state that the Church of the East received the Scriptures from the hands of the blessed Apostles themselves in the original language spoken by Our Lord Jesus Christ Him self and that Pe****ta [Pe****ta Aramaic] is the Text of that Church which has come down from the biblical times without any change or revision.

http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/ar.../index_fri.php

[Keltoi]

exposed to Greek isn't historical evidence that, that is the language Jesus spoke or his disciples recorded their scriptures in. Any Arab Christian will actually contend on your above statement as a farce not 'historical evidence', in an attempt to give a middle eastern religion a western appeal!
To modern day clusters of Hispanics who live in the very heart of where the English language is spoken, can't communicate in a language other than spanish.. there need not even be evidence or scholars recording that Americans speak English, it has to do with the individual not the culture!




http://www.zindamagazine.com/html/ar.../index_fri.php

Why would an Arab Christian know more about the original language of the Gospels than anyone else? Easily answered, they wouldn't.

The New Testament was translated into many languages very quickly, including Syriac, Old Latin, Coptic, Gothic, Armenian, Georgian, Ethiopic, and Arabic.

As for the Pe****ta language you referred to, it didn't replace the old Syriac versions until the 5th century.

[Trumble]

the point is, the bible as you know it today, isn't what was spoken to the people or the disciples.. what you have is a nice work of Greek mythology with some random truths, of whatever was originally upheld in the original tongue before paul and your council got to it.

A case you have still provided absolutely no evidence for. A modern Swiss might write down in Italian a series of stories told him in German, would that mean they suddenly become German "mythology with some random truths"?

You maintain that Jesus and his disciples spoke Greek, but you have no proof of it save for wishful thinking!

There is no way of 'proving' it, or indeed any other historical speculation, just as there is no way of 'proving' he didn't speak Hebrew instead, as your source claimed. It is however, likely, in the context of generally accepted historical opinion that they were familiar with Greek. There is also, as has been pointed out to you, Biblical evidence. Nobody is denying that it is most likely Jesus taught and made general conversation in Aramaic. That does not mean that those conversations were not recorded in Greek or, indeed, even that they were recorded in Aramaic and later in Greek with no significant risk of the kind of hideous misrepresentation you present as fact.

[جوري]

A case you have still provided absolutely no evidence for. A modern Swiss might write down in Italian a series of stories told him in German, would that mean they sudden.

what are you smattering about? Do you have an inherent need to engage in every topic, whether or not it is completely beyond your scope of expertise? ... superficial reading and poor contemplation results in these seemingly endless and simplistic platitudes you chuck.. It is tiresome really--try to be more frank as to your purpose without concealing it.

You know what, I'll let you have it, maybe you can come out of the christian closet faster and stop being such a hypocrite.. Jesus preached with a microphone, dictating his divinity and in Greek in both the first and Second Council of Nicaea in the form of the holy spirit directly after his self-immolating act some hundreds of yrs earlier so none of it would be lost or fall on deaf ears!..

cheers

[john316]

an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to “snare” the proud. He has “hidden” things from the “wise and prudent” and “revealed them to babes” (Luke 10:21), purposely choosing foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27).

[جوري]

lol.. well silly me, that explains so much..

welcome back alapiana.. I think they will incorporate a section for evangelizing right next to the recycle bin..

cheers

[snakelegs]

a gentle (:raging:) reminder.
forum rule:
15.Promoting Religions other than Islam
While interfaith discussions are allowed promoting another religion is not allowed on the discussion board. This discussion board was created to promote Islam, not another religion. There are many other discussion boards on the Web which you can promote your religion other than Islam.
:)

[john316]

I thought this was a comparitive religion section. You mean Christians have no right to defend their stand. I am part of a Christian forum.

[john316]

and in that forum we have non-believer outting in their truths that go against our beliefs. Our administrator should have kicked them out but we were tolerant. i expect the same fair attitidue over here. I have never used profanity or anything like that.

[guyabano]

if the quran is so intimately tied to the language that seemingly nothing of its 'divine nature' can be carried into other languages how can you say this is not an exclusively arab religion?

After I saw so much explanation tries justifying that you can't translate the Quaran properly (which is the only real defense of muslims to justify that there are no contradictions inside), so why is it, that so many muslims are not arabic?
Obviously, most muslims don't know exactly what is written in the quaran?

Confusing...

[guyabano]

... we have non-believer ...

you call muslims 'non-believers' ? Ouch !!!!

I prefer the term 'Different-believer'. It's a more human word

[snakelegs]

and in that forum we have non-believer outting in their truths that go against our beliefs. Our administrator should have kicked them out but we were tolerant. i expect the same fair attitidue over here. I have never used profanity or anything like that.

i think you'll find that this forum is more than fair.
just wanted to remind you of that rule. you certainly have a right to defend your religion/clear up misconceptions etc. :)

[Trumble]

Do you have an inherent need to engage in every topic, whether or not it is completely beyond your scope of expertise? ... superficial reading and poor contemplation results in these seemingly endless and simplistic platitudes you chuck.. It is tiresome really--try to be more frank as to your purpose without concealing it.

No, but I do enjoy participating on debates in which I have an interest. I am a Buddhist but I am also a student of religion in general (and have for many years) and, in this particular context I happen to believe that Jesus lived and taught many good things, which were recorded in the NT by people writing in Koine Greek. I do not believe he was the son of God, or even that there is a God, which kind of disqualifies me from being a Christian, closet or otherwise. There you go, simple.

What I find tiresome is your frequent choice to replace any substantive response with general abuse. In this case the facts that you HAVE no substantive response to the points raised and that your 'sources' simply don't support your argument will not have escaped many, I'm afraid. I shall waste no more time.

I thought this was a comparitive religion section. You mean Christians have no right to defend their stand. I am part of a Christian forum.

None of us have the 'right' to do anything, but you won't get in trouble for defending your corner. There is a difference, though, between that and 'promoting' religions other than Islam. It isn't difficult avoiding crossing over it. :)

[Woodrow]

After I saw so much explanation tries justifying that you can't translate the Quaran properly (which is the only real defense of muslims to justify that there are no contradictions inside), so why is it, that so many muslims are not arabic?
Obviously, most muslims don't know exactly what is written in the quaran?

Confusing...

For the same reasons a person knows he wants to be a pilot long before he knows anything about spherical trig or navigation.

For the same reasons a person knows he wants to be a doctor before he has understood a basic biology book.

People are searchers, we are always searching and if we see a door open and can catch a glimpse of what we want when we peek inside that door. It is worth walking through the door way.

[guyabano]

For the same reasons a person knows he wants to be a pilot long before he knows anything about spherical trig or navigation.

For the same reasons a person knows he wants to be a doctor before he has understood a basic biology book.

People are searchers, we are always searching and if we see a door open and can catch a glimpse of what we want when we peek inside that door. It is worth walking through the door way.

Thank you Woodrow, but in that case, it is also very risky to pretend, the Quaran has no contradictions.

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Some evangelical Christian claim the Bible has no mistakes and contradictions. Apart from the creation story, they've refuted every single alleged contradiction. The same case with Islam and I guess with other religions as well.

[ummsara1108]

Can anyone find the bible in it' s original language? no

Can anyone find the koran in it's original language? absolutely

[guyabano]

Can anyone find the bible in it' s original language? no

Can anyone find the koran in it's original language? absolutely

and then ?

[Mikayeel]

and then ?

Quran is in its original state, and bible isnt.

[minaz]

So the majority of non-muslims don't really think that there are contradictions in the Qu'ran- unless they themselves are aethiests. Whilst we have also discussed in a little depth the langauge spoken of Isa/Jesus and his followers during his time.


Can we know talk about contradictions in SCIENTOLOGY :-D

[Woodrow]

So the majority of non-muslims don't really think that there are contradictions in the Qu'ran- unless they themselves are aethiests. Whilst we have also discussed in a little depth the langauge spoken of Isa/Jesus and his followers during his time.


Can we know talk about contradictions in SCIENTOLOGY :-D

Any further discussions about Scientology, FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn will cause this mod to pull the last remaining hair out of his head.
(yes that is singular like 1. The grandkids already got the rest of them )

[Isambard]

Some evangelical Christian claim the Bible has no mistakes and contradictions. Apart from the creation story, they've refuted every single alleged contradiction. The same case with Islam and I guess with other religions as well.

This is true with certain ideologies as well I've found. Ever have a discussion of economic theory with a traditional marxist? Ouch!

In response to the title, as Im sure it has been mentioned already, if you didn't believe the Qur'an is 'perfect' (free of contradictions, either internal of external), then you would be a non-muslim at least on paper.

Gets fuzzy in practise though as I've encountered quite a few self-proclaimed "muslims" that disagree with certain verses or believe X verse is flat-out wrong.

[ummsara1108]

and then ?

And then when you find the original and fully understand it, only and then can you say and then...

[Whatsthepoint]

This is true with certain ideologies as well I've found. Ever have a discussion of economic theory with a traditional marxist? Ouch!

In response to the title, as Im sure it has been mentioned already, if you didn't believe the Qur'an is 'perfect' (free of contradictions, either internal of external), then you would be a non-muslim at least on paper.

Gets fuzzy in practise though as I've encountered quite a few self-proclaimed "muslims" that disagree with certain verses or believe X verse is flat-out wrong.

There are movements within Islam that consider certain passages to be cultural, they believe some parts were revealed for the arabic people of the day only and no longer apply to modern society.

[guyabano]

...and fully understand it...

Understand what?

[Mikayeel]

Understand what?

I think she ment understand the quran.

[ranma1/2]

Any further discussions about Scientology, FSM or the Invisible Pink Unicorn will cause this mod to pull the last remaining hair out of his head.
(yes that is singular like 1. The grandkids already got the rest of them )

what about the Gfsm or his other names such as the egyptian god of noodles and his priests the RA-men.

[ummsara1108]

Understand what?

I ment the bible, if you find the bible in it's original language, let me know, oh that's right it doesn't exsist, but if you do and truely understand it, then you can say and then what?

But guess what? you can find the koran in it's original text/language.

And btw there's no need to be sarcastic guyabano.

[guyabano]

I ment the bible, if you find the bible in it's original language, let me know, oh that's right it doesn't exsist, but if you do and truely understand it, then you can say and then what?

But guess what? you can find the koran in it's original text/language.

And btw there's no need to be sarcastic guyabano.

oh, I see no sarcasm in my questions. I just don't like these telegramm posts, where you can guess, what the other mean

What is the 'divine' book ? What is the definition of an perfect book? How can you pretend, there exist a book written by a God, where you can even not proove, he is existing ?
Muslims say, the Quaran is the perfect book. But how comes, more than half of the population do not find this book perfect? If God created humans and the perfect book, shouldn't not ALL humans have the same opinion ?
Everybody say, their book is the perfect book, but then again, everybody pretend the others religion's book is contradictory.

So, get the irony ?

Thats why in my eyes, the Quaran is as contradictory as the bible is or whatever other book/roll of religions

I see no problems with that. It's ok for me. Nobody is perfect, we all make mistakes, everybody has the right to live out his faith.

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

Thats why in my eyes, the Quaran is as contradictory as the bible is or whatever other book/roll of religions

The Quran is by all means LESS contradictory than the Bible.
First, it is significantly shorter, i thin the ratio is 1 to 10.
Second, it was written by one person, IMHO by a very intelligent human, whereas teh Bible was written by many people.
Third, the Bible was supposedly severely altered by the early Church.

[Mikayeel]

The Quran is by all means LESS contradictory than the Bible.
First, it is significantly shorter, i thin the ratio is 1 to 10.
Second, it was written by one person, IMHO by a very intelligent human, whereas teh Bible was written by many people.
Third, the Bible was supposedly severely altered by the early Church.

I would make that a God free from all needs :)

I would be amongst the first ones to leave islam if i found out that the quran was written by a man!

[truemuslim]

The Quran is by all means LESS contradictory than the Bible.
First, it is significantly shorter, i thin the ratio is 1 to 10.
Second, it was written by one person, IMHO by a very intelligent human, whereas teh Bible was written by many people.
Third, the Bible was supposedly severely altered by the early Church.

HAH u have got to be kiddin me! if it was written by a human why wud there be so many muslims? because they dumb? no because they is smart! and relize the truth... islam wud be the worste religion if it was written by human:D

[minaz]

islam wud be the worste religion if it was written by human

The bibles were written (created) by humans- would that make it the worst religion? Or would that just imply Islam, as the fundamentals are given by god?

[truemuslim]

^ nooooo ... but the bible is SUPPOSED to be a word of god..

[truemuslim]

and some ppl go on and believe it is...

[guyabano]

all I know is, that no muslim is able to answer my question

[KAding]

I tend to agree with Pygloscesis and czgibson on this.

The fact that there are so many different interpretations of the Qu'ran even among devout Muslims does show that it essentially fails to convey the message perfectly. The whole existence of the book is puzzling itself. Indeed, why would any omnipotent entity need a method of communication as crude as a book or indeed a human Prophet?

On a more practical level, I always found the "there is no compulsion in religion" and Islamic rules on apostasy to be in contradiction.

[Trumble]

The whole existence of the book is puzzling itself. Indeed, why would any omnipotent entity need a method of communication as crude as a book or indeed a human Prophet?

Indeed. One of the huge questions that gets lost and forgotten among far more trivial ones. Why, for example, would God choose not to have Prophets among, and reveal the same book in, several cultures? If the Qur'an emerged independently in say the Middle East, Europe, China and India (obviously in the appropriate language) I'd be convinced. But it didn't; and to the atheists amongst us the reason why is pretty obvious.

[wilberhum]

Indeed. One of the huge questions that gets lost and forgotten among far more trivial ones. Why, for example, would God choose not to have Prophets among, and reveal the same book in, several cultures? If the Qur'an emerged independently in say the Middle East, Europe, China and India (obviously in the appropriate language) I'd be convinced. But it didn't; and to the atheists amongst us the reason why is pretty obvious.

I think the reason why is pretty obvious to agnostics too.

[Malaikah]

Indeed. One of the huge questions that gets lost and forgotten among far more trivial ones. Why, for example, would God choose not to have Prophets among, and reveal the same book in, several cultures? If the Qur'an emerged independently in say the Middle East, Europe, China and India (obviously in the appropriate language) I'd be convinced.

I don't think you would be convinced at all, most likely you would be coming up with more ways to tell God how to run things.

You and others have seen enough similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and yet you don't believe in any of them.

If the Quran did indeed appear in all these places, you and others like you would most likely just claim that they copied each other or come up with some other excuse.

Indeed, why would any omnipotent entity need a method of communication as crude as a book or indeed a human Prophet?

KAding,

All these 'why' questions get us no where - why did God send a book, why did God create us at all? Why this, why that... don't you think we know that God could have done it any way He wanted, but this is what He choose, and that is good enough for us. We know better than to think our human wisdom is anywhere near that of Gods.

On a more practical level, I always found the "there is no compulsion in religion" and Islamic rules on apostasy to be in contradiction.

It isn't a contradiction - the verse means there is no compulsion to enter Islam.

Muslims say, the Quaran is the perfect book. But how comes, more than half of the population do not find this book perfect? If God created humans and the perfect book, shouldn't not ALL humans have the same opinion ?

Firstly, because they haven't read it. Secondly, because they haven't read it in Arabic. Thirdly, not all hearts will be open to the truth.

I can speak to the general contradiction of the idea of a holy book though. If an all powerful God wished to be known, that God would be known. There would be no need for midlemen or messengers such as prophets or holy books.

You're assumption is wrong. You are assuming that God wanted to prove beyond doubt, 100%, clear as day, that He exists to His creation, and that the only way He could do that was by sending a book...

The fact that He sent Messenger and Holy Books just goes to show that what you claim is His wish was not His wish at all (at least not in the sense that His aim was to make it impossible to refute that He existed).

[guyabano]

... not all hearts will be open to the truth.

Which truth ? Most found their truth in something else. You will never be able to explain to a different believer that Islam is the only truth.

Muslims say, the Quaran is the perfect book. But how comes, more than half of the population do not find this book perfect? If God created humans and the perfect book, shouldn't not ALL humans have the same opinion ?

But exactly this statement says it all. IF the book would have been perfect, then it would have been accepted by ALL on this earth as God would have wanted it so, no?

Peace

[Mikayeel]

Subhanna allah!

Read what the quran says about this....

(5)Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. (6) Allâh has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearings, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allâh's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Suurat Al baqara


So here is your answer why not all humans have the same opinion.

[Malaikah]

Which truth ? Most found their truth in something else. You will never be able to explain to a different believer that Islam is the only truth.

Well, I might have never been able to do so, but others have - that is why many peple become Muslim.

But exactly this statement says it all. IF the book would have been perfect, then it would have been accepted by ALL on this earth as God would have wanted it so, no?

I disagree - the book might be perfect but humans are not. I mean, think of something like murder. It is so evil, everyone knows that. Does that stop people from doing it? No.

For whatever reason, people will reject the book, perhaps because they are too arrogant to believe, because they read the Quran but because they did not read it in Arabic or because they don't have sufficient background knowledge or even interest, they don't recognise it as the truth, maybe they are too determined to believe that Islam is wrong so when they read the book they don't even give it a chance.

Or, even worse, they read it in search of contradictions and the only reason they find 'contradictions' is because they are ignorant or have only a shallow or even incorrect understanding of what they are reading.

[guyabano]

Well, I might have never been able to do so, but others have - that is why many peple become Muslim.



I disagree - the book might be perfect but humans are not. I mean, think of something like murder. It is so evil, everyone knows that. Does that stop people from doing it? No.

For whatever reason, people will reject the book, perhaps because they are too arrogant to believe, because they read the Quran but because they did not read it in Arabic or because they don't have sufficient background knowledge or even interest, they don't recognise it as the truth, maybe they are too determined to believe that Islam is wrong so when they read the book they don't even give it a chance.

Or, even worse, they read it in search of contradictions and the only reason they find 'contradictions' is because they are ignorant or have only a shallow or even incorrect understanding of what they are reading.

Sure, but isn't that a little bit globalizing and also arrogant to pretend 'THIS IS THE ONLY TRUTH'. Sure, there can only be one truth, but what is this truth ?
I think, humans will never know it.

[Trumble]

You and others have seen enough similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and yet you don't believe in any of them.

All were founded within a relatively small geographical area, the first two in essentially the same place.

If the Quran did indeed appear in all these places, you and others like you would most likely just claim that they copied each other or come up with some other excuse.

Actually, I suspect you might find pretty much the whole world being muslim. However, it remains a hypothetical question because of course it didn't happen. 'Why' has yet to be addressed.

[ranma1/2]

HAH u have got to be kiddin me! if it was written by a human why wud there be so many muslims? because they dumb? no because they is smart! and relize the truth... islam wud be the worste religion if it was written by human:D

i swear TM isnt an actual muslim, anyone else get the impression that hes a troll thats or a POE. a very bad poe at that.

[Heera Singh]

HAH u have got to be kiddin me! if it was written by a human why wud there be so many muslims? because they dumb? no because they is smart! and relize the truth... islam wud be the worste religion if it was written by human:D

If you study history, you will know how Islam became as big as it is today.

[Pygoscelis]

You're assumption is wrong. You are assuming that God wanted to prove beyond doubt, 100%, clear as day, that He exists to His creation, and that the only way He could do that was by sending a book...

The fact that He sent Messenger and Holy Books just goes to show that what you claim is His wish was not His wish at all (at least not in the sense that His aim was to make it impossible to refute that He existed).

As I said, the holy book and prophets existing either show that God does not exist or God does not wish to be known, and intends all of the confusion and war between rival religions and sects within those religions.

The world's religions and gods look remarkable as you'd expect them to look if they were made up by men.

[- Qatada -]

If you study history, you will know how Islam became as big as it is today.

2right mate! :D


Islamic History:
http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12

[Heera Singh]

It was spread thru invasions and conquering of nations/territories; killing millions of innocent people and forcing millions more to convert...

[جوري]

written by a Jew living in Israel

Mohammed's Sword
By URI AVNERY

Since the days when Roman Emperors threw Christians to the lions, the relations between the emperors and the heads of the church have undergone many changes.

Constantine the Great, who became Emperor in the year 306--exactly 1700 years ago--encouraged the practice of Christianity in the empire, which included Palestine. Centuries later, the church split into an Eastern (Orthodox) and a Western (Catholic) part. In the West, the Bishop of Rome, who acquired the title of Pope, demanded that the Emperor accept his superiority.

The struggle between the Emperors and the Popes played a central role in European history and divided the peoples. It knew ups and downs. Some Emperors dismissed or expelled a Pope, some Popes dismissed or excommunicated an Emperor. One of the Emperors, Henry IV, "walked to Canossa", standing for three days barefoot in the snow in front of the Pope's castle, until the Pope deigned to annul his excommunication.

But there were times when Emperors and Popes lived in peace with each other. We are witnessing such a period today. Between the present Pope, Benedict XVI, and the present Emperor, George Bush II, there exists a wonderful harmony. Last week's speech by the Pope, which aroused a world-wide storm, went well with Bush's crusade against "Islamofascism", in the context of the "Clash of Civilizations".


* * *

IN HIS lecture at a German university, the 265th Pope described what he sees as a huge difference between Christianity and Islam: while Christianity is based on reason, Islam denies it. While Christians see the logic of God's actions, Muslims deny that there is any such logic in the actions of Allah.

As a Jewish atheist, I do not intend to enter the fray of this debate. It is much beyond my humble abilities to understand the logic of the Pope. But I cannot overlook one passage, which concerns me too, as an Israeli living near the fault-line of this "war of civilizations".

In order to prove the lack of reason in Islam, the Pope asserts that the prophet Muhammad ordered his followers to spread their religion by the sword. According to the Pope, that is unreasonable, because faith is born of the soul, not of the body. How can the sword influence the soul?

To support his case, the Pope quoted--of all people--a Byzantine Emperor, who belonged, of course, to the competing Eastern Church. At the end of the 14th century, the Emperor Manuel II Palaeologus told of a debate he had--or so he said (its occurrence is in doubt)--with an unnamed Persian Muslim scholar. In the heat of the argument, the Emperor (according to himself) flung the following words at his adversary:

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".

These words give rise to three questions:

(a) Why did the Emperor say them?

(b) Are they true?

(c) Why did the present Pope quote them?


* * *

WHEN MANUEL II wrote his treatise, he was the head of a dying empire. He assumed power in 1391, when only a few provinces of the once illustrious empire remained. These, too, were already under Turkish threat.

At that point in time, the Ottoman Turks had reached the banks of the Danube. They had conquered Bulgaria and the north of Greece, and had twice defeated relieving armies sent by Europe to save the Eastern Empire. In 1453, only a few years after Manuel's death, his capital, Constantinople (the present Istanbul) fell to the Turks, putting an end to the Empire that had lasted for more than a thousand years.

During his reign, Manuel made the rounds of the capitals of Europe in an attempt to drum up support. He promised to reunite the church. There is no doubt that he wrote his religious treatise in order to incite the Christian countries against the Turks and convince them to start a new crusade. The aim was practical, theology was serving politics.

In this sense, the quote serves exactly the requirements of the present Emperor, George Bush II. He, too, wants to unite the Christian world against the mainly Muslim "Axis of Evil". Moreover, the Turks are again knocking on the doors of Europe, this time peacefully. It is well known that the Pope supports the forces that object to the entry of Turkey into the European Union.


* * *

IS THERE any truth in Manuel's argument?

The pope himself threw in a word of caution. As a serious and renowned theologian, he could not afford to falsify written texts. Therefore, he admitted that the Qur'an specifically forbade the spreading of the faith by force. He quoted the second Sura, verse 256 (strangely fallible, for a pope, he meant verse 257) which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith".

How can one ignore such an unequivocal statement? The Pope simply argues that this commandment was laid down by the prophet when he was at the beginning of his career, still weak and powerless, but that later on he ordered the use of the sword in the service of the faith. Such an order does not exist in the Qur'an. True, Muhammad called for the use of the sword in his war against opposing tribes--Christian, Jewish and others--in Arabia, when he was building his state. But that was a political act, not a religious one; basically a fight for territory, not for the spreading of the faith.

Jesus said: "You will recognize them by their fruits." The treatment of other religions by Islam must be judged by a simple test: How did the Muslim rulers behave for more than a thousand years, when they had the power to "spread the faith by the sword"?

Well, they just did not.

For many centuries, the Muslims ruled Greece. Did the Greeks become Muslims? Did anyone even try to Islamize them? On the contrary, Christian Greeks held the highest positions in the Ottoman administration. The Bulgarians, Serbs, Romanians, Hungarians and other European nations lived at one time or another under Ottoman rule and clung to their Christian faith. Nobody compelled them to become Muslims and all of them remained devoutly Christian.

True, the Albanians did convert to Islam, and so did the Bosniaks. But nobody argues that they did this under duress. They adopted Islam in order to become favorites of the government and enjoy the fruits.

In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. Only after the expulsion of the Crusaders from the country, did the majority of the inhabitants start to adopt the Arabic language and the Muslim faith--and they were the forefathers of most of today's Palestinians.


* * *

THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. How would this have been possible, had the Prophet decreed the "spreading of the faith by the sword"?

What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book". In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes.

Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for fifty generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith.


* * *

THE STORY about "spreading the faith by the sword" is an evil legend, one of the myths that grew up in Europe during the great wars against the Muslims--the reconquista of Spain by the Christians, the Crusades and the repulsion of the Turks, who almost conquered Vienna. I suspect that the German Pope, too, honestly believes in these fables. That means that the leader of the Catholic world, who is a Christian theologian in his own right, did not make the effort to study the history of other religions.

Why did he utter these words in public? And why now?

There is no escape from viewing them against the background of the new Crusade of Bush and his evangelist supporters, with his slogans of "Islamofascism" and the "Global War on Terrorism"--when "terrorism" has become a synonym for Muslims. For Bush's handlers, this is a cynical attempt to justify the domination of the world's oil resources. Not for the first time in history, a religious robe is spread to cover the nakedness of economic interests; not for the first time, a robbers' expedition becomes a Crusade.

The speech of the Pope blends into this effort. Who can foretell the dire consequences?

Uri Avnery is an Israeli writer and peace activist with Gush Shalom. He is one of the writers featured in The Other Israel: Voices of Dissent and Refusal. He is also a contributor to CounterPunch's hot new book The Politics of Anti-Semitism.

also I recommend you refer back to this thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...d-sword-2.html

17 pages with well documented history, so we are not all speaking out of our behind..

peace!

[Heera Singh]

thanks for the info; I'll read it all with time.

Bless!

[Heera Singh]

Eve Bhainjee (sister), would u like me to post my reply to ur post in this thread or another, as i don't want to get more off topic from the original direction of the thread.

[جوري]

Heeraji,
Aapne jo sawal pooche, unka jawab is thread mein mil jayega. 
Lekin agar koi sawal ka jawab nahin mila, toh ek new thread open ki jiye.
PS. Yeh tanslation meri saheli ne likhi hai

cheers

[Malaikah]

Sure, but isn't that a little bit globalizing and also arrogant to pretend 'THIS IS THE ONLY TRUTH'. Sure, there can only be one truth, but what is this truth ?
I think, humans will never know it.

I personally don't think it is arrogant.

Actually, I suspect you might find pretty much the whole world being muslim. However, it remains a hypothetical question because of course it didn't happen. 'Why' has yet to be addressed.

I doubt it. The people of Makkah saw with their own eyes the Prophet performing miracles (such as splitting the moon) and they still did not convert. I very much doubt a book appearing in two places at the same time would convince many people.

[Malaikah]

It was spread thru invasions and conquering of nations/territories; killing millions of innocent people and forcing millions more to convert...

No, Islamic rule was spread by conquering, not the religion it self. The religion was spread by people choosing to convert out of their own free will. The people had the option to remain on their own religion.

I won't deny that there were some times in history when atrocities did occur, however they are isolated events and don't account for what happened overall.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I personally don't think it is arrogant.

To believe that you have the truth and that everyone who disagrees with you is wrong?

I could never be that bold.

Peace

[AntiKarateKid]

Believe it or not there is truth. We are bold enough to embrace it, you are arrogant enough towards Allah to reject it.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
There will be those who accept the truth and there will be those who reject it. There is at least one ayat in th Quran saying pretty much just that. Which, I must say, is bloody awesome.

[Heera Singh]

Heeraji,
Aapne jo sawal pooche, unka jawab is thread mein mil jayega.*
Lekin agar koi sawal ka jawab nahin mila, toh ek new thread open ki jiye.
PS. Yeh*tanslation meri saheli ne likhi hai

cheers

hehe.. sorry Bhenji... i have no idea wha u said there... :nervous:
i picked up 'new thread open' and 'translation' :giggling:

[Heera Singh]

No, Islamic rule was spread by conquering, not the religion it self. The religion was spread by people choosing to convert out of their own free will. The people had the option to remain on their own religion.

Thats not entirely true.... look at the events in India during the 17th and 18th century (Mughal Empire)

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:
There will be those who accept the truth and there will be those who reject it. There is at least one ayat in th Quran saying pretty much just that. Which, I must say, is bloody awesome.

I think there's one like it in the Bible and I wouldn't be surprised to find matches in other sacred writings.

[barney]

Accepting contradictions in the Quran would be accepting that God either.
1)Made mistakes; which would mean the person accepting this was not muslim.
2) There are contradictions, but Allah intended there to be and he knows best, or; Human understanding of his will misinterpretes these verses as contradictions.

Which may be more acceptable.

[AntiKarateKid]

Both options are not possible. In many suras Allah affirms that it has NO contradictions and this is true.