US criticises Dutch troops in Afghanistan

[radwan21]

US criticises Dutch troops in Afghanistan
Dutch defence minister Eimert van Middelkoop met the US ambassador to the Netherlands on Wednesday to discuss official criticism of Dutch, Australian and Canadian troops in southern Afghanistan, news agency ANP reports.

The agency says Middelkoop called ambassador Roland E. Arnall 'to account' for an interview given by US defence secretary Robert Gates in the Los Angeles Times.

In the interview Gates said he believed Nato forces currently deployed in southern Afghanistan do not know how to combat a guerrilla insurgency, a deficiency that could be contributing to the rising violence in the fight against the Taliban.

'I'm worried we're deploying [military advisors] that are not properly trained and I'm worried we have some military forces that don't know how to do counterinsurgency operations,' Gates said in the interview.

The criticism comes just days after two Dutch and two Afghan soldiers were killed in what appears to be a friendly fire incident in the southern province of Uruzgan.

The Netherlands has some 1,650 soldiers in Afghanistan and has just agreed to stay in the region until 2010.

Commander Nico Geerts of the Uruzgan task force said on Wednesday it is still not clear how the soldiers lost their lives. Speaking by telephone to Radio 1, Geerts denied a shortage of radios could have contributed to the confused situation. Military union ACOM has blamed a shortage in transmitters for the deaths.




http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...es_dutch_t.php

[Keltoi]

The U.S. has been somewhat dubious when it comes to the NATO allies in Afghanistan for quite awhile. Not only are their contributions below what was promised, they are also reluctant to do what is necessary to counter the Taliban elements in their respective war zones. With the exception of the Australians of course.

[ahsan28]

Allies Feel Strain of Afghan War

Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, January 15, 2008


The U.S. plan to send an additional 3,200 Marines to troubled southern Afghanistan this spring reflects the Pentagon's belief that if it can't bully its recalcitrant NATO allies into sending more troops to the Afghan front, perhaps it can shame them into doing so, U.S. officials said.

After more than six years of coalition warfare in Afghanistan, NATO is a bundle of frayed nerves and tension over nearly every aspect of the conflict, including troop levels and missions, reconstruction, anti-narcotics efforts, and even counterinsurgency strategy. Stress has grown along with casualties, domestic pressures and a sense that the war is not improving, according to a wide range of senior U.S. and NATO-member officials who agreed to discuss sensitive alliance issues on the condition of anonymity.

While Washington has long called for allies to send more forces, NATO countries involved in some of the fiercest fighting have complained that they are suffering the heaviest losses.

According to opinion polls, Canadians feel they have done their bit in Afghanistan.

U.S. and British forces have long derided each other's counterinsurgency tactics. The same tensions have emerged in Afghanistan :D


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

[ahsan28]

Outrage as US accuses Britain of inexperience in Taleban conflict


From The Times
January 17, 2008

Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary, risked an unprecedented rift with Britain and other close allies after accusing Nato countries fighting in southern Afghanistan of lacking experience in counter-insurgency warfare.

Mr Gates said failings in the south were contributing to the rising violence in the fight against the Taleban.

His outspoken criticism, voiced in an interview with an American newspaper, provoked instant reactions from Britain, Canada and the Netherlands, the three most prominent members of the alliance, who have endured much of the fiercest fighting in southern Afghanistan. :D


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3201002.ece

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[Cognescenti]

It does seem odd that Gates would say such a thing publicly, even if true.

It would be one thing to jab at the French and Germans, who aren't doing their share. It is another to come down of the Canadians or Dutch or Aussies or Brits.

The Canadian involvement is most unpopular at home and their military is very small. It's not easy, I'm sure.

On the other hand...they all DID sign the NATO treaty and the US DID protect them from the Russians for 45 years at huge expenese.

[ahsan28]

It does seem odd that Gates would say such a thing publicly, even if true.

It would be one thing to jab at the French and Germans, who aren't doing their share.

And let the Americans sit at ease in Eastern part, who haven't faced the brunt of the fierce battles in the south. This what US allies feel.

I feel sorry for the coalition of the unwilling :D

[Keltoi]

And let the Americans sit at ease in Eastern part, who haven't faced the brunt of the fierce battles in the south. This what US allies feel.

I feel sorry for the coalition of the unwilling :D

Those "fierce" battles in the south aren't that fierce.

In any event, these countries signed up for this mission and they should do the job they agreed to do. Regardless of polls.

[Cognescenti]

And let the Americans sit at ease in Eastern part, who haven't faced the brunt of the fierce battles in the south. This what US allies feel.

I feel sorry for the coalition of the unwilling :D

Keltoi is right...the battles are nothing like Falloujah. They chiefly involve scores of deluded Talibs going to meet their maker.

NATO has always been held together with bailing wire. After all, Turkey and Greece are supposed to be allies in NATO :okay:

Not to worry, a brigade of 3000 US Marines are being sent. As you are so confident your "good guys" will win, you can still volunteer, live in a mud hut for few months, jump over a few old walls then, after your training is complete go up against the Marines. Send us a postcard, won't you?

[ahsan28]

In any event, these countries signed up for this mission and they should do the job they agreed to do. Regardless of polls.

Who will teach them the art of fighting in the inhospitable mountains of Afghanistan. Air is not the solution to the miseries being faced by NATO :?

[Keltoi]

Who will teach them the art of fighting in the inhospitable mountains of Afghanistan. Air is not the solution to the miseries being faced by NATO :?

When it comes to the mountains the normal course of action is to bomb the place into oblivion. Only the special forces are trained well enough to live off the land and be an effective military unit at the same time. Normal soldiers aren't trained to live off the land, and are dependant upon re-supply, which is very difficult in those mountains. Hence the usual procedure of dropping a large amount of bombs on the target area, saves time, money, and more than likely lives.

[AvarAllahNoor]

They should never have gone in. Leave, and let the yanks carry on what they began!

[ahsan28]

When it comes to the mountains the normal course of action is to bomb the place into oblivion.

Then you need to buy a good book on air operations :D

Six years have passed and your SMART bombs couldn't produce any worth-while result, except killing innocent civilians :cry:

[ahsan28]

Not to worry, a brigade of 3000 US Marines are being sent.

Why only a brigade, please send a division, rather entire Marine Corps by calling reservists from their homes :D

I remember the words of Rommel "the Americans didn't have any practical experience and we wanted to instil in them a sense of inferiority right from the outset". Talibans are doing the same with US and NATO :D

Heavy reliance on sophisticated weapons and state-of-the-art war planes are indeed force multipliers, but can't bring you success, which is conditional to an iron will, determination and commitment to the cause, lacking in your ideal peace keepers :embarrass

Please do wake me up, when your mission becomes a success, until then bye bye :D

[Keltoi]

Then you need to buy a good book on air operations :D

Six years have passed and your SMART bombs couldn't produce any worth-while result, except killing innocent civilians :cry:

Those air operations, coupled with special forces teams, were good enough to topple Taliban control of Afghanistan....so maybe you need the book.

As for the Taliban in the mountains, it appears NATO and the U.S. are happy to let them camp out in the mountains if that is what they want. If reliable intel is found that places Taliban fighters in a certain area they are indeed bombed, and contrary to the football team fanboyishness on display, the Taliban have no answer for it.

[Keltoi]

Why only a brigade, please send a division, rather entire Marine Corps by calling reservists from their homes :D

I remember the words of Rommel "the Americans didn't have any practical experience and we wanted to instil in them a sense of inferiority right from the outset". Talibans are doing the same with US and NATO :D

Heavy reliance on sophisticated weapons and state-of-the-art war planes are indeed force multipliers, but can't bring you success, which is conditional to an iron will, determination and commitment to the cause, lacking in your ideal peace keepers :embarrass

Please do wake me up, when your mission becomes a success, until then bye bye :D

Seems the little history lesson was incomplete...what happened to Rommel?

In any event, comparing the Taliban to the Nazi war machine is laughable at best.

[thirdwatch512]

It is such a shame. This Republican government asks for help, but then when they get it they just complain.

Right wingers.. I tell you, there is truly no hope for them!

[Keltoi]

It is such a shame. This Republican government asks for help, but then when they get it they just complain.

Right wingers.. I tell you, there is truly no hope for them!

Nice try, but believe it or not NATO politics has nothing to do with American Democrats or Republicans....imagine that.

[Cognescenti]

Why only a brigade, please send a division, rather entire Marine Corps by calling reservists from their homes :D

I remember the words of Rommel "the Americans didn't have any practical experience and we wanted to instil in them a sense of inferiority right from the outset". Talibans are doing the same with US and NATO :D

Heavy reliance on sophisticated weapons and state-of-the-art war planes are indeed force multipliers, but can't bring you success, which is conditional to an iron will, determination and commitment to the cause, lacking in your ideal peace keepers :embarrass

Please do wake me up, when your mission becomes a success, until then bye bye :D

Good analogy with Rommel. Anyone remember what happened to him and the high-spirited boys under his command? :okay:


Comparing the Taliban to the German army in WWII is a real laugh riot. They aren't winning anything by superior knowledge or training. There simply aren't enough NATO troops to be everywhere and there is no center of gravity for the Taliban in Afghanistan so it is a bit like stomping on cockroaches (no offence to your chaps).

Let's not forget the Taliban held the Northern Alliance in a stalemate for many years....until a couple of US special ops guys showed up with radios and call in some B-52's that happened by.

[ahsan28]

Not guns, its men behind the guns, who matter. Six years passed and these forces couldn't defeat few hundreds, fighting with KKs only :D

I don't want to go back in the pages of history for reading about strategic blunders committed by Hitler for which German legend can't be held responsible. What happened with him is nothing to do with his competence.

The purpose was to let you know that your heroes remain bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq and that is a HARD FACT


New Way of War; How do you stop foes who kill with devices built for the price of a pizza?

Publication: Newsweek
Publication Date: 20-AUG-07


It's bad enough when the insurgents hide the IEDs (improvised explosive devices) in animal carcasses or, more ghoulishly, human cadavers. Worse is when they leave the bombs sitting in plain sight. "It makes the hair on the back of our necks tingle",
says Command Master Chief Pat McLean.

How can you defeat a foe who can destroy million-dollar machines with devices that can be built off the Internet for about the cost of a pizza, especially if that foe doesn't particularly worry about dying?


:D

[Keltoi]

Not guns, its men behind the guns, who matter. Six years passed and these forces couldn't defeat few hundreds, fighting with KKs only :D

I don't want to go back in the pages of history for reading about strategic blunders committed by Hitler for which German legend can't be held responsible. What happened with him is nothing to do with his competence.

The purpose was to let you know that your heroes remain bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq and that is a HARD FACT


New Way of War; How do you stop foes who kill with devices built for the price of a pizza?

Publication: Newsweek
Publication Date: 20-AUG-07


It's bad enough when the insurgents hide the IEDs (improvised explosive devices) in animal carcasses or, more ghoulishly, human cadavers. Worse is when they leave the bombs sitting in plain sight. "It makes the hair on the back of our necks tingle",
says Command Master Chief Pat McLean.

How can you defeat a foe who can destroy million-dollar machines with devices that can be built off the Internet for about the cost of a pizza, especially if that foe doesn't particularly worry about dying?


:D

So we're talking about Iraq now? In any event, I feel slightly immature even discussing this with you, no offense. Sounds too much like you're talking about a football game.

[Cognescenti]

It is such a shame. This Republican government asks for help, but then when they get it they just complain.

Right wingers.. I tell you, there is truly no hope for them!

How does this have anything to do with political ideology? I will check but I am pretty sure the Republican Party is not a signatory to NATO. The United States invoked the mutual defence clause of the NATO Treaty.

Gates is no idealogue either. Thank you for not mentioning Haliburtun in your little rant. I am sure it must have been hard for you.

[Cognescenti]

So we're talking about Iraq now? In any event, I feel slightly immature even discussing this with you, no offense. Sounds too much like you're talking about a football game.

Yeah...no kidding. I half imagine he is lying on the floor with dozen Taliban figurines lined up against the green army men, making explosion sounds then chanting that thing the Taliban say (which I won't mention here).

[ahsan28]

So we're talking about Iraq now? In any event, I feel slightly immature even discussing this with you, no offense. Sounds too much like you're talking about a football game.

Strange if you think that IEDs are related to Iraq only :muddlehea

Most of Canada's combat deaths have been the result of improvised explosive devices, or IEDs - commonly known as roadside bombs.

Monday's blast in the volatile Panjwaii district resulted only in property damage. But on Sunday, four Canadian soldiers were injured in Zangabad, about 35 kilometres southwest of Kandahar city, when their vehicle struck an IED that was planted along a dirt road.

Besides the three IED hits against Canadians, Taliban insurgents seem to have escalated their attacks right across the country in the last few days.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terr...774261-cp.html


Improvised explosive devices: A growing menace in Afghanistan

"The insurgency in Afghanistan has been very carefully studying the lessons learned by the insurgents in Iraq," said John Pike of GlobalSecurity.org, an online portal that specializes in military and defence news.

"We're starting to see more organized ambushes in Afghanistan and starting to see the sort of roadside bombs that previously we were just seeing in Iraq."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/ied.html


The Ministry of Defence is conducting a major study into brain injury in troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan amid fears that thousands of soldiers may have suffered damage after being exposed to high-velocity explosions.

The US army says as many as 20% of its soldiers and marines have suffered "mild traumatic brain injury" (mTBI) from blows to the head or shockwaves caused by explosions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/s...200330,00.html


Afghanistan Now Most Dangerous for U.S. Troops

The situation has deteriorated in Afghanistan. There have already been 111 U.S. troops killed in Afghanistan in 2007, making this the deadliest year for U.S. troops in Afghanistan of the entire war.

"We are stagnating in Afghanistan, if not backsliding," a senior U.S. military official tells ABC News.

It's also the deadliest year for non-U.S. troops, by far. This year, 112 non-U.S. troops in the coalition have been killed, including 40 from Britain and 29 from Canada.

Considering that there are only 26,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan, compared to over 160,000 in Iraq, the death rate is considerably higher in Afghanistan.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...3937323&page=1


If you are not inclined to accept ground realities, its fine with me. Lets wait for the time to see who wins in the long run :D

[Keltoi]

Strange if you think that IEDs are related to Iraq only :muddlehea

Most of Canada's combat deaths have been the result of improvised explosive devices, or IEDs - commonly known as roadside bombs.

Monday's blast in the volatile Panjwaii district resulted only in property damage. But on Sunday, four Canadian soldiers were injured in Zangabad, about 35 kilometres southwest of Kandahar city, when their vehicle struck an IED that was planted along a dirt road.

Besides the three IED hits against Canadians, Taliban insurgents seem to have escalated their attacks right across the country in the last few days.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terr...774261-cp.html


Improvised explosive devices: A growing menace in Afghanistan

"The insurgency in Afghanistan has been very carefully studying the lessons learned by the insurgents in Iraq," said John Pike of GlobalSecurity.org, an online portal that specializes in military and defence news.

"We're starting to see more organized ambushes in Afghanistan and starting to see the sort of roadside bombs that previously we were just seeing in Iraq."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/afghanistan/ied.html


The Ministry of Defence is conducting a major study into brain injury in troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan amid fears that thousands of soldiers may have suffered damage after being exposed to high-velocity explosions.

The US army says as many as 20% of its soldiers and marines have suffered "mild traumatic brain injury" (mTBI) from blows to the head or shockwaves caused by explosions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/military/s...200330,00.html


Afghanistan Now Most Dangerous for U.S. Troops

The situation has deteriorated in Afghanistan. There have already been 111 U.S. troops killed in Afghanistan in 2007, making this the deadliest year for U.S. troops in Afghanistan of the entire war.

"We are stagnating in Afghanistan, if not backsliding," a senior U.S. military official tells ABC News.

It's also the deadliest year for non-U.S. troops, by far. This year, 112 non-U.S. troops in the coalition have been killed, including 40 from Britain and 29 from Canada.

Considering that there are only 26,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan, compared to over 160,000 in Iraq, the death rate is considerably higher in Afghanistan.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...3937323&page=1


If you are not inclined to accept ground realities, its fine with me. Lets wait for the time to see who wins in the long run :D

The goal should be making sure the people of Afghanistan "win", meaning they have a stable government that is looking out for their interests.

[snakelegs]

So we're talking about Iraq now? In any event, I feel slightly immature even discussing this with you, no offense. Sounds too much like you're talking about a football game.

i think the point is

How can you defeat a foe who can destroy million-dollar machines with devices that can be built off the Internet for about the cost of a pizza, especially if that foe doesn't particularly worry about dying?

i think it's a good question. time is not on "our" side.

[minaz]

The goal should be making sure the people of Afghanistan "win", meaning they have a stable government that is looking out for their interests.

No one ever mentions the poor Afghan people!

Although it is amusing to witness the hardcore supporters argues their case on behalf of NATO or the Taliban, but how about a little appreciation towards the interests of the Afghan people.

[Cognescenti]

No one ever mentions the poor Afghan people!

Although it is amusing to witness the hardcore supporters argues their case on behalf of NATO or the Taliban, but how about a little appreciation towards the interests of the Afghan people.

I'm not sure I have ever met a "hardcore supporter" for NATO. All of the member states have complaints.

Even so, the presence of NATO troops in Afghanistan is superior to the status quo ante in which an outlaw organization operated with the support of the Taliban. It is not, however, politically sustainable forever. Eventually, those who reject the rigid rule and murderous insurgency of the Taliban will have to do it on their own.

[ahsan28]

Alliance remains divided as spring offensive nears

From The Times
January 21, 2008

Winter in Afghanistan is traditionally the season when hostilities cease, enforced hibernation sets in and the warring parties make preparations for the spring offensive.

The bloody start to the year is probably a foretaste of what is likely to follow once the snows melt, the mountain passes reopen and the fierce struggle resumes for the fate of the country.

For the Taleban the strategy is clear. Spread the insurgency, undermine the reconstruction efforts, drive a wedge between foreign forces and the local population and isolate the beleaguered Government of President Karzai.

The alliance is dangerously divided. The main contributing nations remain at odds over who should do the fighting, for how long and the tactics employed.

Most of the European forces, Nato forces, are not trained in counter-insurgency; they were trained for the Fulda Gap Nato’s Cold War battle lines in Germany. :embarrass

Canada, whose forces have taken heavy casualties in the Taleban stronghold of Kandahar, has given warning that it may not extend its mandate beyond the end of this year because of growing public opposition to the war.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3221852.ece