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Mikayeel
01-19-2008, 10:50 PM
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله تعالى وبركاته

Do you guys believe introducing the death penalty to certain Countries would reduce the amount of (serious) crimes? I have discussed this topic many times in class, and without doubt everyone including most of the teachers thought introducing the death penalty (in my case UK) would bring more bedlam!
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krypton6
01-19-2008, 11:16 PM
It would without a doubt reduce crimes. The court just has to be careful and not give the wrong sentence.
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wilberhum
01-19-2008, 11:23 PM
IMHO The death penalty is not much of a deterrent.

krypton6
It would without a doubt reduce crimes.
Got some stats on that
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جوري
01-19-2008, 11:32 PM
I am a strong advocate of the death penalty..
they have just removed it again from the state of NJ.. you know that baby killer and rapist that tortured and murdered poor young megan


he now gets a roof over his head and three square meals a day for the rest of his life from your tax money.. you know while homeless folks are still dying in the winter with no shelter, a convicted child molestor and murderer gets to get away with his murder..

please think of her last moments with this animal and of her parents, the next time you are convinced that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric!
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aamirsaab
01-19-2008, 11:33 PM
:sl:
Defo - especially in the case of re-offenders. Though only for serious crimes like murder and rape.
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Mikayeel
01-19-2008, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
IMHO The death penalty is not much of a deterrent.


Got some stats on that
i dont no where to obtain stats from, wait till any of the wiser brother/sister speaks, but in britian since they disallowed the death penalty the (serious)crimes without a doubt increased..

I would like ur opinion to why u dont want the death penalty(i assume) thanks..
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جوري
01-19-2008, 11:35 PM
have a good look at the creep
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2


peace!
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Amadeus85
01-19-2008, 11:41 PM
Death penalty is possible for the most degenerated murderers.
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wilberhum
01-19-2008, 11:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
i dont no where to obtain stats from, wait till any of the wiser brother/sister speaks, but in britian since they disallowed the death penalty the (serious)crimes without a doubt increased..

I would like ur opinion to why u dont want the death penalty(i assume) thanks..
Good grief. You need reading between the lines training.
The fact that I don't think it isn't a deterrent does not mean I'm against it.
I'm kind of a "fence sitter" on this one.
On one hand, killing people is no way to teach people not to kill people.
On the other hand, vengeance is sweet.
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جوري
01-19-2008, 11:57 PM
I think people can better understand the ramifications of a child molestor getting away with his crime when they have a little one of their own.. imagine your little girl playing outside in the sun and some ******* takes her, rapes and sodmoizes her, kills her and dumps her in the trash like she were an animal or even worst.. pls try to picture that happening to a little person you love.. maybe then one can understand this need others have for justice and for safer neighborhoods!

peace
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Mikayeel
01-20-2008, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Good grief. You need reading between the lines training.The fact that I don't think it isn't a deterrent does not mean I'm against it.
I'm kind of a "fence sitter" on this one.
On one hand, killing people is no way to teach people not to kill people.
On the other hand, vengeance is sweet.
can u tell me what u mean by that? thanks
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جوري
01-20-2008, 12:04 AM
^^ it means he is undecided!
can formulate an argument both for and against!

:w:
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wilberhum
01-20-2008, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
can u tell me what u mean by that? thanks
You don't understand "Reading between the lines"?
That means thinking what a person says implies they also are saying some thing else.
I said it isn't a deterrent and you assumed I was against it. But I never said that. You need lessens on "Reading between the lines" because you were wrong in your assumption.
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Trumble
01-20-2008, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
i dont no where to obtain stats from, wait till any of the wiser brother/sister speaks, but in britian since they disallowed the death penalty the (serious)crimes without a doubt increased..
They have also increased in similar fashion in countries (or US States) that retained it.

In my opinion we have just seen too many cases over the years where the innocent were convicted or, more frequently, convinctions were unsound. In considering the feeling of victims and their relatives one must also consider the torment of someone sitting in Death Row, or at the moment of execution, for a crime they did not commit . Talk of the 'worst cases' and 'when you are absolutely sure' is nonsense.. where do you draw the line? The case needs to be proven beyond 'reasonable doubt' to convict at all, you can hardly tell a convicted murderer that he is sentenced to life imprisonment but that the Court isn't certain enough he did it to order his execution.
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Omari
01-20-2008, 01:19 AM
I think it will.
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InToTheRain
01-20-2008, 01:36 AM
Yes we need the death penalty and the correct application of it.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/

Just look at those sick stats, some people have no fear of the consequences of their actions....
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wilberhum
01-20-2008, 02:19 AM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
Yes we need the death penalty and the correct application of it.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/

Just look at those sick stats, some Yes we need the death penalty and the correct application of it. ....
Just look at those sick stats, some people have no fear of the consequences of their actions

and
Yes we need the death penalty and the correct application of it.
So why do we need the death penalty if people have no fear of the consequences of their actions?
If you don't think it is a deterrent do you just want vengeance?

You really have me confused. :muddlehea
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جوري
01-20-2008, 02:24 AM
That is a logical fallacy on many different levels, but I only care to point out one error as I am in need for dindin
punishment is made to fit the crime not only so as to make an example to others who may or may not fear consequence.

If your son steals your wallet, gambles using your credit cards, so that you and yours end up in debt, do you punish him to make an example to your others kids who may too be suffering from kleptomania or so he may suffer and pay for his actions?

cheers
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Isambard
01-20-2008, 02:39 AM
Death penalty hasnt decreased number of crimes.

All it is, is a taxpayer sinkhole.
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InToTheRain
01-20-2008, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Just look at those sick stats, some people have no fear of the consequences of their actions

and
Yes we need the death penalty and the correct application of it.
So why do we need the death penalty if people have no fear of the consequences of their actions?
If you don't think it is a deterrent do you just want vengeance?
They do not fear the consequences the Law enforces for those crimes however the possibility of death may change their mind. Of course the punishment has to fit the crime hence the correct application is required.
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wilberhum
01-20-2008, 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
They do not fear the consequences the Law enforces for those crimes however the possibility of death may change their mind. Of course the punishment has to fit the crime hence the correct application is required.
I think Isambard is accurate.
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جوري
01-20-2008, 03:23 AM
Cost Comparisons:
Death Penalty Cases Vs Equivalent Life Sentence Cases
by Dudley Sharp, Justice Matters

In comparing the cost of death penalty cases to other sentences, the studies are woefully incomplete.

Generally, such studies have one or more of the following problems.

1) All studies exclude the cost of geriatric care, recently found to be $69,000/inmate/yr. A significant omission from life sentence costs.

2) All studies exclude the cost savings of the death penalty, which is the ONLY sentence which allows for a plea bargain to a maximum life sentence. Such plea bargains accrue as a cost benefit to the death penalty, such benefit being the cost of trials and appeals for every such plea bargain. The cost savings would be for trial and appeals, an amount estimated to be at least $1 million per case. Depending upon jurisdiction, this may result in a zero net cost for the death penalty, depending on the number of plea bargains Vs the number of death penalty trials, or an actual net cost benefit.

3) FCC economist Dr. Paul Zimmerman finds that executions result in a huge cost benefit to society. "Specifically, it is estimated that each state execution deters somewhere between 3 and 25 murders per year (14 being the average). Assuming that the value of human life is approximately $5 million {i.e. the average of the range estimates provided by Viscussi (1993)}, our estimates imply that society avoids losing approximately $70 million per year on average at the current rate of execution all else equal." The study used state level data from 1978 to 1997 for all 50 states (excluding Washington D.C.). (1)

That is a cost benefit of $70 million per execution. 6 additional, recent studies support the deterrent effect. Deterrence report upon request.

No cost study has included such calculations.

Although we find it inappropriate to put a dollar value on life, evidently this is not uncommon for economists, insurers, etc.

We know that living murderers are infinitely more likely to harm and murder, again, than are executed murderers. There is no doubt that executions do save innocent lives. What value do you put on the lives saved? Certainly not less than $5 million.

4) a) Some studies compare the cost of a death penalty case, including pre trial, trial, appeals and incarceration, to only the cost of incarceration for 40 years, excluding all trial costs and appeals, for a life sentence. The much cited Texas "study" does this. Hardly an apples to apples cost comparison.
b) The pure deception in some cost "studies" is overt. It has been claimed that it costs $3.2 million/execution in Florida. That "study" decided to add the cost of the entire death penalty system in Florida ($57 million), which included all of the death penalty cases and dividing that number by only the number of executions (18). One could just have easily stated that the cost of the estimated 200 death row inmates was $285,000 per case.

5) There is no reason for death penalty appeals to take longer than 7 years. All death penalty appeals, direct and writ, should travel through the process concurrently, thereby giving every appellate issue 7 years of consideration through both state and federal courts. There is no need for endless repetition and delay. It currently takes about 12 years for appeals. A 5 year reduction in time, enforcement of the concurrent path for appeals and the end of repetitive appeals would save $200,000 per death penalty case.

Judges are the most serious roadblock in timely resolution. They can and do hold up cases, inexcusably, for long periods of time. Texas, which leads the nation in executions, by far, takes over 10 years, on average, to execute murderers. However, the state and federal courts, for that jurisdiction, handle many cases. Texas has the second lowest rate of the courts overturning death penalty cases. Could every other jurisdiction process appeals in 7-10 years. Of course, if the justices would allow it.

6) If a state is considering an execution moratorium, such costs should be included. All studies exclude the cost of a moratorium. A moratorium will add approximately $20,000/yr/inmate for a state's expenditures, for those inmates not executed during that period.

Justice
7) The main reason sentences are given is because jurors find that it is the most just punishment available. No state, concerned with justice, will base a decision on cost alone. If they did, all cases would be plea bargained and every crime would have a probation option.

Many more errors and omissions can be identified. The bottom line is that there are currently no studies which give us a true picture of the cost of death penalty cases Vs a maximum life sentence for equivalent cases.

There may be a cost benefit for the death penalty.

At the very least, with just this partial list of errors and omissions found in current death penalty studies, no one can use the cost issue as a reason for saving a jurisdiction money or for an execution moratorium.

1). "State Executions, Deterrence and the Incidence of Murder", Paul R. Zimmerman (zimmy@att.net), March 3. 2003, Social Science Research Network, http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/delivery...tractid=354680

Dudley Sharp, Justice Matters
e-mail sharpjfa@aol.com, 713-622-5491,
Houston, Texas

Mr. Sharp has appeared on ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NBC, NPR, PBS, BBC and many other TV and radio networks, on such programs as Nightline, The News Hour with Jim Lehrer, The O'Reilly Factor, etc., has been quoted in newspapers throughout the world and is a published author.

A former opponent of capital punishment, he has written and granted interviews about, testified on and debated the subject of the death penalty, extensively and internationally.

Pro death penalty sites
www.cjlf.org/deathpenalty/DPinformation.htm
www.dpinfo.com/
www.prodeathpenalty.com
http://www.prodeathpenalty.org/
http://www.yesdeathpenalty.com/ (Sweden)
www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html
www.vuac.org/capital

My focus has been on violent crime issues and what can be done, within the criminal justice and legislative systems, to lessen injury to the innocent and to prosecute the guilty. To accomplish that goal, involvement in community education, elections, legislation, victim's rights issues, including assistance in individual cases are all important.

http://www.dpinfo.com/cost_comparisons.htm
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InToTheRain
01-20-2008, 03:55 AM
[PIE] In the United States alone there have been 4047 executions
since 1930, and 188 were from 1977-1996. In 1996, there were a total
of 15,168,100 arrests; 33,050 for forcible rape; 1,506,200 involving
drug violations and 19,020 for murder and non-negligent manslaughter.
The death penalty was enforced 45 times
. The death penalty is an
expensive punishment, since 1976 the united states have spent 700
million dollars in it. Methods of the death penalty include lethal
injection, gas chamber, electric chair, hanging and fire squad. In a
1986 poll 70% of Americans favored the death penalty as a punishment
for murder.

There is some evidence, however that the death penalty is
effective in the deteration of crime
. "If all those caught producing
addictive drugs, plus all of those caught selling addictive drugs in
our country were confronted with capital punishment administered
without recourse, by local authorities throughout our 50 states-then
gradually this intolerable situation would be ameliorated and
eventually conquered." (W.H. Long) in 1988, Arthur Bishop was
executed. During that year there were 47 murders. Before the date of
the execution there were 26 murders executed and after that there
were 21. (19% difference). In 1960, 56 there were 56 executions and
9,410 murders. In 1964 there were 15 executions and 9,250 murders. In
1969 to 1975 there were no executions and 35,100 murders. This
clearly shows that the number of murders rise and the number of
executions decrease. Also, Isaac Ehrlich concluded from his research
that every execution prevented 8 murders.
[/PIE]
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wilberhum
01-20-2008, 06:07 AM
Those who believe that deterrence justifies the execution of certain offenders bear the burden of proving that the death penalty is a deterrent. The overwhelming conclusion from years of deterrence studies is that the death penalty is, at best, no more of a deterrent than a sentence of life in prison.
(more)
hose who believe that deterrence justifies the execution of certain offenders bear the burden of proving that the death penalty is a deterrent. The overwhelming conclusion from years of deterrence studies is that the death penalty is, at best, no more of a deterrent than a sentence of life in prison.
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crayon
01-20-2008, 01:12 PM
"vengenace is sweet"

I support the death penalty, but I don't even think of it that way. Allah will deal with them even if we don't.

The reason I support it is this: If someone murders a person, and the city gathers to see that person being executed, do you not think, that the next time someone thinks of committing a murder, he will think twice?

It may seem extreme, but I challenge you to tell me that it would not affect others who later thought of committing the same crime.
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Whatsthepoint
01-20-2008, 01:20 PM
Switzerland 0.00921351 murders per 1,000 people
Jamaica 0.324196 murders per 1,000 people

I am against the death penalty and I guess I'm not a strong supporter of life in prison either. Criminals should be treated medically and taken into er custody until they've rehabilitated, if necessary until their natural deaths.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-20-2008, 02:03 PM
For criminals like Ian Huntley, Ian Brady, Yourkshire Ripper etc they should have the death penaly as there is no way they can ever be found not guilty of the crimes they committed! Saves tax payers money to!
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Keltoi
01-20-2008, 02:27 PM
It's a difficult question. I've sort of switched back and forth on this issue throughout my lifetime. I think I've come to the belief that the death penalty is warranted in certain cases, especially murder of children and cases of mass murder. To me the question of whether it stops others from committing the same crime is almost irrelevant. We know for a fact it will stop one individual from ever doing it again.
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Woodrow
01-20-2008, 02:31 PM
The Death penalty seldom is a deterrent,for future crimes. The emotional state and frame of mind of a potential mass murderer, rapist, etc. Removes any concept of fear of death from them. They have no value for human life not even their own and the thought they might be killed plays not part in their actions.

However, this does not rule out that in some cases the death penalty is the best choice. But, we make a mistake if we think it is for the purpose of reducing crime.

If the fear of death was a real deterrent for anything, not only would it deter criminals, it would also deter, soldiers, martyrs, explorers, etc.

It would be wonderful if the death penalty served as a deterrent to crime, the same principal could be used to completely eliminate wars, illegal occupation, terrorism etc. But the fear of dying has yet to prevent any of that.
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Keltoi
01-20-2008, 03:11 PM
Yes, in the case of child killers and serial killers, usually they suffer from something akin to an addiction. An inner urge that can't be stopped with any logical thought.
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aamirsaab
01-20-2008, 03:27 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Yes, in the case of child killers and serial killers, usually they suffer from something akin to an addiction. An inner urge that can't be stopped with any logical thought.
So instead of wasting tax payers money aswell as risking another attack (rape, murder etc) let's kill the jerkholes. Afterall, the reason for a prison sentence is to PREVENT it from happening again right? So let's nip it in the bud - eliminate the root and the bugger won't grow again.

:D
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Keltoi
01-20-2008, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
So instead of wasting tax payers money aswell as risking another attack (rape, murder etc) let's kill the jerkholes. Afterall, the reason for a prison sentence is to PREVENT it from happening again right? So let's nip it in the bud - eliminate the root and the bugger won't grow again.

:D
Life in prison is probably the way to go in most cases of murder, but I think in the case of child rape and murder there has to be a zero tolerance policy. It obviously won't stop most of those who have this urge from carrying out these sick atrocities, but for those who have lost children to these animals it can help them at least find some semblance of closure.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-20-2008, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
So instead of wasting tax payers money aswell as risking another attack (rape, murder etc) let's kill the jerkholes. Afterall, the reason for a prison sentence is to PREVENT it from happening again right? So let's nip it in the bud - eliminate the root and the bugger won't grow again.

:D
It's practiced in the USA (some states) so why not re-introduced it here. The thought of these monsters no longer breathing the same air as us, would give a sense of satisfaction.

*Makes a petition
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Omari
01-20-2008, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
It's practiced in the USA (some states) so why not re-introduced it here. The thought of these monsters no longer breathing the same air as us, would give a sense of satisfaction.

*Makes a petition
Yes, I fully agree with you, however they're are files now that prohibit Capital Punishment because it "apparently" violates international human rights.

In Afghanistan, when I was a kid, I used to run around all over the city, and I would never be afraid of kidnapping or murder, but when the new democratic law took event the crime rates have hit the roof.

Thats evidence right there, from personal experience.

Peace
Omari
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Whatsthepoint
01-20-2008, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
So instead of wasting tax payers money aswell as risking another attack (rape, murder etc) let's kill the jerkholes. Afterall, the reason for a prison sentence is to PREVENT it from happening again right? So let's nip it in the bud - eliminate the root and the bugger won't grow again.

:D
People who commit such tremendous acts are seriously ill. Most of them are not objectively responsible for their actions, they do it, because they simply "have" to...
This is not nazi Germany, we don't kill people, we treat them.
I think pedophile killers, rapists etc are less eglible for a death penalty than people who kill because of financial fiancial benefits.
I am opposed to the death penalty, mostly because it is irreversible, but should it be introduced it should ionly apply to cold-blooded murderers, serial killers etc.
I know the family of the victims must be frustrated to know the killer of tehir child, brother, daughter-in-law breathes the same air as they do, but I don't think the state should act upon the feelings of unstable, traumatized people...
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AvarAllahNoor
01-20-2008, 04:35 PM
You can't treat a peadophile. They do what they do, because they think it's right! - Removal of genitals (as been said) will do no good, because they may not have the sexual organ, but the desire within shall still exist. Earadicate this evil! Hang them!! :p
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Whatsthepoint
01-20-2008, 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You can't treat a peadophile. They do what they do, because they think it's right! - Removal of genitals (as been said) will do no good, because they may not have the sexual organ, but the desire within shall still exist. Earadicate this evil! Hang them!! :p
You can't fully treat them, but you can lock them up and/or mechanically/chemically reduce their sexual urge.
It is not their fault they're like that so they, by no means, should be killed!
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Omari
01-20-2008, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You can't fully treat them, but you can lock them up and/or mechanically/chemically reduce their sexual urge.
It is not their fault they're like that so they, by no means, should be killed!
Yeah? well, if they ruin the life of an innocent person he deserves death, how will you recover the victim who will in most cases commit suicide, [in developing countries anyway.]

Peace omari
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Mikayeel
01-20-2008, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Switzerland 0.00921351 murders per 1,000 people
Jamaica 0.324196 murders per 1,000 people

I am against the death penalty and I guess I'm not a strong supporter of life in prison either. Criminals should be treated medically and taken into er custody until they've rehabilitated, if necessary until their natural deaths.
The problem with that is most of the time if they are released( they will try their best to get out quickly by behaving well) they will carry on killing agian... and that is a big chance to take..
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Whatsthepoint
01-20-2008, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Yeah? well, if they ruin the life of an innocent person he deserves death, how will you recover the victim who will in most cases commit suicide, [in developing countries anyway.]

Peace omari
Well, I guess the death of the rapist/paedophile can be a consolation to the victim...but I don't think this is the reason we should introduce the death penalty. Life in prison is a better option, together with a full medical and psychiatric assistance for the victim.
People rarely think that people to be executed have families too. IMO death penalty causes more trouble and more suffering alltogether than (life in) prison.
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Whatsthepoint
01-20-2008, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
The problem with that is most of the time if they are released( they will try their best to get out quickly by behaving well) they will carry on killing agian... and that is a big chance to take..
That's why I do not support paroles granted by people who've just graduated from law school...
As I said before, people should be treated by medical doctors and it's medical doctors who should have the right to decide when somebody's been rehabilitated.
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Omari
01-20-2008, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, I guess the death of the rapist/paedophile can be a consolation to the victim...but I don't think this is the reason we should introduce the death penalty. Life in prison is a better option, together with a full medical and psychiatric assistance for the victim.
People rarely think that people to be executed have a families as well. IMO death penalty causes more trouble and more suffering alltogether than (life in) prison.
I disagree, ofcourse I understand that the "to be" executed have families. But isn't it the familys' responsability to take neccessary precautions in order to keep the community safe from their son/brother/father etc?

Life imprisonment is only 25 years. So in an average lifetime, a commited pedophile will have ruined the lives of ATLEAST 3 people. Keep in mind that most pedphiles are imprisoned for multiple offences, so the result of my calculation will most likely increase as appose to decreasing.

Death penalty not only rids the community of the pedophile, but it also warns the others of the consequence. Just the word "death" should suffice. And this is only speaking of pedophiles. A death penalty, even if not practiced should stop the offenders and anti-social elements.

Peace
Omari
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Whatsthepoint
01-20-2008, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
I disagree, ofcourse I understand that the "to be" executed have families. But isn't it the familys' responsability to take neccessary precautions in order to keep the community safe from their son/brother/father etc?

Life imprisonment is only 25 years. So in an average lifetime, a commited pedophile will have ruined the lives of ATLEAST 3 people. Keep in mind that most pedphiles are imprisoned for multiple offences, so the result of my calculation will most likely increase as appose to decreasing.

Death penalty not only rids the community of the pedophile, but it also warns the others of the consequence. Just the word "death" should suffice. And this is only speaking of pedophiles. A death penalty, even if not practiced should stop the offenders and anti-social elements.

Peace
Omari
Death penalty will in most cases not stop a murder and it most certainly won't stop someone, who can't control their sexual urges, ie paedophiles. the capital punishment is a very mild deterrant when you look at the numbers.
What's the differnce between life in prison and death penalty? None from the public safety point of view. Apart from that, life in prison is cheaper, the state can't mistakenly kill an innocent citizen, the offenender's relatives aren't hurt.... I guess there's less consolidation for the victims and their families, but as I said before, the satet should not act upon the feeligns of traumatised people.
Instead of killing offenders we should try bulding a crimeless society. Look at Switzerland, or Denmark. They haven't executed a man in decades yet the crime stats are very low, much lower than the stats in some countries with the death penalty.

Anyway, sick people should no be executed no matter what the benefits of their execution may be.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-20-2008, 05:53 PM
You'e right life is better for them in prison, it's CUSHY!! No bills, no taxes, watch tv, eat, drink, gym, play games, (xboxes, Wii) you name it and they get. No, death IS right for those that cause others to suffer! No questions, It has been decided, for I am the voice of reason...
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Mikayeel
01-20-2008, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You'e right life is better for them in prison, it's CUSHY!! No bills, no taxes, watch tv, eat, drink, gym, play games, (xboxes, Wii) you name it and they get. No, death IS right for those that cause others to suffer! No questions, It has been decided, for I am the voice of reason...
So those who kill should just uhmm get piled up in a prison and relax the remaining of a somewhat shamefull life? If they are lucky they get the chance to get out agian, to continue their shamefull life.. for I am sure that the life of the prison is better... no taxes, they get to eat and drink... and even play games as u clearly stated.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-20-2008, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
So those who kill should just uhmm get piled up in a prison and relax the remaining of a somewhat shamefull life? If they are lucky they get the chance to get out agian, to continue their shamefull life.. for I am sure that the life of the prison is better... no taxes, they get to eat and drink... and even play games as u clearly stated.
I was responding to the chap/chapess above my post. It was sarcasm my dear brother! :D
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InToTheRain
01-20-2008, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
You'e right life is better for them in prison, it's CUSHY!! No bills, no taxes, watch tv, eat, drink, gym, play games, (xboxes, Wii) you name it and they get. No, death IS right for those that cause others to suffer! No questions, It has been decided, for I am the voice of reason...
LOL, indeed. Some of them "Prisons" are better then some of the houses I have seen and heard about. Seriously man, its like they're making Incentives for ciminals to perpetrate crime... OMG :ooh: what's the world coming too imsad
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Mikayeel
01-20-2008, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I was responding to the chap/chapess above my post. It was sarcasm my dear brother! :D
lool, sorry man i have this thing of jumping to a conclusion very quick!:), my apology:), hmmm where is Whatsthepoint when u need him uhm...
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minaz
01-20-2008, 10:11 PM
Its interesting how many feel nothing towards the lives of murderers/rapists/abusers (including myself- as in i also share this feeling not that i am any of those 3 :P)

I can not imagine how it must feel to know a victim let alone be a victom of any of the crimes of murder/rape/abuse. Then again I can not imagine how it would feel to take a persons life.

Under Islamic law the death penalty applies and maming too?

Does anyone think that the penalty of "torture", branding or amputation would have a decreasing effect on these crimes?
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جوري
01-20-2008, 10:41 PM
I believe there is a reason Allah decreed that this people be made an example out of.
I believe we won't know of true justice until we implement shari3a law to its fullest..
people can sit and tweak this law and tweak that law, no one will ever be satsifed and wicked people will continue to thrive and the innocent will suffer with them.. please read suret Al-anfal..


وَاتَّقُواْ فِتْنَةً لاَّ تُصِيبَنَّ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُواْ مِنكُمْ خَآصَّةً وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ {25}
[Pickthal 8:25] And guard yourselves against a chastisement which cannot fall exclusively on those of you who are wrong-doers, and know that Allah is severe in punishment.

:w:
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AvarAllahNoor
01-21-2008, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by minaz
Its interesting how many feel nothing towards the lives of murderers/rapists/abusers (including myself- as in i also share this feeling not that i am any of those 3 :P)

I can not imagine how it must feel to know a victim let alone be a victom of any of the crimes of murder/rape/abuse. Then again I can not imagine how it would feel to take a persons life.

Under Islamic law the death penalty applies and maming too?

Does anyone think that the penalty of "torture", branding or amputation would have a decreasing effect on these crimes?
Under Shariah don't people get their hands cut off for a crime of theft? I may be happy to see something similar, but not for theft but rape, domestic abuse.
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Z-Blade
01-22-2008, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله تعالى وبركاته


Do you guys believe introducing the death penalty to certain Countries would reduce the amount of (serious) crimes? I have discussed this topic many times in class, and without doubt everyone including most of the teachers thought introducing the death penalty (in my case UK) would bring more bedlam!
:wasalamex

Yeah it would reduce crimes as the death penalty works as the ultimate deterrent. It's pretty obvious your teachers are talking based on emotion and not logic/facts since many people in the UK who are punished by the Law here re-offend, as the punishments are too lenient and just don't really work. They may also be atheists/agnostics thinking there is no after life and so the death penalty is too harsh. Allah knows best.

Wassalam.
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syilla
01-22-2008, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Under Shariah don't people get their hands cut off for a crime of theft? I may be happy to see something similar, but not for theft but rape, domestic abuse.
hands cut off are only for the habitual. Not because if they are desperate or hungry.

Have you noticed that most of the theft offender usually is the serial one.
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Z-Blade
01-22-2008, 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Under Shariah don't people get their hands cut off for a crime of theft? I may be happy to see something similar, but not for theft but rape, domestic abuse.
Rapists get the death penalty in Islam, but I don't know exactly what domestic abusers get, would depend on the level of abuse I guess. They may get lashes and prison - Allah knows best.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-22-2008, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Z-Blade
Rapists get the death penalty in Islam,

That's acceptable. Perhaps they'll think twice.
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guyabano
01-22-2008, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
have a good look at the creep
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2


peace!
I don't know if death penalty is adequate. I mean, wouldn't be public humiliation better? Even if you will choose death penalty, well what about the cases which are not 100% clear. And what about psychopaths who are not guilty but just like to choose a way of suicide? THAT also exist! Can you globalize Death Penatly and if not, in what particular cases it should be applied? It is a delicate topic
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Mikayeel
01-22-2008, 11:15 AM
rape crime is soo cruel :(!!, how can people reach that state in there mind....

and yes they should be killed, surely if they are released from prison they will rape agian!(as proven on many ocations)

Any way can any of the mods Add a POLL to this Thread?
wa alsalaam 3alekum wa rahmat allah wa barakatahu
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Mikayeel
01-22-2008, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
I don't know if death penalty is adequate. I mean, wouldn't be public humiliation better? Even if you will choose death penalty, well what about the cases which are not 100% clear. And what about psychopaths who are not guilty but just like to choose a way of suicide? THAT also exist! Can you globalize Death Penatly and if not, in what particular cases it should be applied? It is a delicate topic
Oke death penalty only applies when one is 100% sure! other than that no point of killing the person(because they get wrong sometimes) and if a person has a mental illness than he is not to blame(depending on hiss illness)
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جوري
01-22-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
I don't know if death penalty is adequate. I mean, wouldn't be public humiliation better? Even if you will choose death penalty, well what about the cases which are not 100% clear. And what about psychopaths who are not guilty but just like to choose a way of suicide? THAT also exist! Can you globalize Death Penatly and if not, in what particular cases it should be applied? It is a delicate topic
Your body right now is making is probably making leukemic cells, imagine your body had failure to recognize them, or was a little lenient as to let them overwhelm your marrow?..

Every society has its misfits and criminals, even inside your own body..

if you didn't have a cell-mediated or humoral immunity, if you didn't have mast cells, Т cells, macrophages, natural killer cells, В cells IG class switching, neutrophils, basophils, tumor necorsis factor etc etc.. you'd be doomed.. we'd all be doomed.. in fact when the 'enemy' wins so to speak it means a demise for the whole.. won't be just your great toe that suffers or your right eye but the body as a whole!

contrast that to society.. a body that is overzelous will have auto-immunity and destory itself while succumbing to the enemy, a body that is lazy in its immunity will like wise succumb to the enemy even if it doesn't attack itself!

It is a delicate balance.. sure you'll have your downtime until the 'good guys' do their job!
A good job can be established in society, by having rightous people who are learned in jurisprudence and are wise, implement God's commandments!

In your body every cell is decreed its job, in life every wo/man has a job.. if we all do our jobs well. we'll live well!

peace
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Jayda
01-22-2008, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am a strong advocate of the death penalty..
they have just removed it again from the state of NJ.. you know that baby killer and rapist that tortured and murdered poor young megan


he now gets a roof over his head and three square meals a day for the rest of his life from your tax money.. you know while homeless folks are still dying in the winter with no shelter, a convicted child molestor and murderer gets to get away with his murder..

please think of her last moments with this animal and of her parents, the next time you are convinced that the death penalty is cruel and barbaric!
and also think about the people wrongly condemned to die because of mistakes in the system. mens' judgment is too imperfect to be trusted with life and death, that belongs to God. the death penalty is wrong...
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Mikayeel
01-22-2008, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Your body right now is making is probably making leukemic cells, imagine your body had failure to recognize them, or was a little lenient as to let them overwhelm your marrow?..

Every society has its misfits and criminals, even inside your own body..

if you didn't have a cell-mediated or humoral immunity, if you didn't have mast cells, Т cells, macrophages, natural killer cells, В cells IG class switching, neutrophils, basophils, tumor necorsis factor etc etc.. you'd be doomed.. we'd all be doomed.. in fact when the 'enemy' wins so to speak it means a demise for the whole.. won't be just your great toe that suffers or your right eye but the body as a whole!

contrast that to society.. a body that is overzelous will have auto-immunity and destory itself while succumbing to the enemy, a body that is lazy in its immunity will like wise succumb to the enemy even if it doesn't attack itself!

It is a delicate balance.. sure you'll have your downtime until the 'good guys' do their job!
A good job can be established in society, by having rightous people who are learned in jurisprudence and are wise, implement God's commandments!

In your body every cell is decreed its job, in life every wo/man has a job.. if we all do our jobs well. we'll live well!

peace
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله تعالى وبركاته

mashAllah very wise comparison sister!! very nicely said:)
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snakelegs
01-22-2008, 08:38 PM
i am against the death penalty because
sometimes it turns out that the accused is not guilty.
i don't think we have equal justice for rich and poor.
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Woodrow
01-22-2008, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i am against the death penalty because
sometimes it turns out that the accused is not guilty.
i don't think we have equal justice for rich and poor.
I agree. although I favor the death penalty if it can be applied fairly and justly, I do not see that being done here. Too many errors(one error is too many), too much inequality, too much of a lawyer show and not justice.
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Whatsthepoint
01-22-2008, 08:50 PM
I guess I do approve it in cases where the guilt and the mental halth of the accused have been proven beyond reasanoble doubt.
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جوري
01-22-2008, 10:59 PM
[QUOTE=Jayda;902094]and also think about the people wrongly condemned to die because of mistakes in the system. mens' judgment is too imperfect to be trusted with life and death, that belongs to God. the death penalty is wrong...[/QUOTE]

really? his semen was found in her body cavities on autopsy.. Must have been xenu's DNA then?

When you free outlaws, only outlaws are free...
Maybe you enjoy that kind of society.. I and most sane beings, don't!
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InToTheRain
01-22-2008, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
and also think about the people wrongly condemned to die because of mistakes in the system. mens' judgment is too imperfect to be trusted with life and death, that belongs to God. the death penalty is wrong...
Man's Judgement maybe imperfect, that just means we have to work on the process. It's better to have Laws which are perfect and a flawed process then to have flawed laws and processes.
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wilberhum
01-23-2008, 04:47 AM
A valid reason not to support the death penalty.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/22/...ase/index.html
FORT COLLINS, Colorado (CNN) -- A Colorado judge Tuesday threw out Tim Masters' 1999 murder conviction after DNA evidence pointed to another suspect, and Masters was freed after spending more than nine years behind bars.
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جوري
01-23-2008, 04:52 AM
we have gotten very sophisticated with our testing techniques now, I see positively no reason why murderers should continue to eat and live.

cheers
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wilberhum
01-23-2008, 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
we have gotten very sophisticated with our testing techniques now, I see positively no reason why murderers should continue to eat and live.

cheers
True, our testing techniques and knowledge keeps getting better and better.

But in the end it lacks perfection. The death penalty will continue to kill innocent people.
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جوري
01-23-2008, 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
True, our testing techniques and knowledge keeps getting better and better.

But in the end it lacks perfection. The death penalty will continue to kill innocent people.
I doubt it.. a negligible error where if there is at least one percent doubt can receive life as opposed to beyond a reasonable doubt with DNA evidence in every crevice and still continues to eat and live... I wish people would sympathize a little with the victim and/or their families over criminals, justice should be quick and swift, criminals need to be made an example out of in public, so that it would influence the behavior of those who think along the same tracks..

criminality has consequence!!!!!!!!!!!
People should be executed in town square with onlookers.. so that every ba$tard who thinks he can kill his pregnant wife and chop her off into small piece and put them in bags while having an affair on the side or piece of crap that takes a little girl to rape, sodomize and torture her and dumps her in the trash, or every woman who puts her two sons in a car and drives them off into the water while they look at her and question how their own mother can betray them so she can start anew with a lover, would have a taste of humiliation and mortification of same calibre as they've inflicted on another life; and the rest can understand consequence!... there is nothing glamorous here.. I am utterly appalled at how these criminals have fan clubs and connubial visits.. honestly what is this world coming to?
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wilberhum
01-23-2008, 05:21 AM
criminality has consequence
But that has nothing to do with what I said.
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جوري
01-23-2008, 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
But that has nothing to do with what I said.
sure it does .. your idea of consequence however differs greatly from mine :smile:


cheers
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thirdwatch512
01-23-2008, 05:54 AM
Ah, I do not support the death penalty... So someone kills them. Yet we are going to tell them that they are wrong by killing them?! Lol to me it just does not make any sense. I mean that is like saying "kids, never do drugs it is terrible" but then you do drugs. I mean I understand, but it is hypocritical.

And it is something that no one will ever be able to agree on. My morals are different then others.. So please, no one attack me! Let us just agree to disagree!
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Malaikah
01-23-2008, 06:24 AM
:sl:

About this issue of false sentencing and DNA- does Islamic law even allow sentencing to death based on DNA evidence?
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snakelegs
01-23-2008, 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

About this issue of false sentencing and DNA- does Islamic law even allow sentencing to death based on DNA evidence?
interesting question!
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جوري
01-23-2008, 06:39 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Ah, I do not support the death penalty... So someone kills them. Yet we are going to tell them that they are wrong by killing them?! Lol to me it just does not make any sense. I mean that is like saying "kids, never do drugs it is terrible" but then you do drugs. I mean I understand, but it is hypocritical.

And it is something that no one will ever be able to agree on. My morals are different then others.. So please, no one attack me! Let us just agree to disagree!
No one is attacking you.. and No one should take a pleasure in putting someone to death, it is as necessary as you underoing radiation or chemo for a tumor that is killing you...the rest of your comment is a logical fallay.
Or should we follow that same logic and say, well this anaplastic change is really endogenous, meant to be there and if it is killing me, I shouldn't be a hypocrite by killing it back..

think about what you are saying and suggesting..

peace!
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جوري
01-23-2008, 06:40 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

About this issue of false sentencing and DNA- does Islamic law even allow sentencing to death based on DNA evidence?
Why not?
We should utalize every science available to reach the truth!

:w:
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Malaikah
01-23-2008, 07:00 AM
:sl:

It isn't allowed for adultery (that is, to sentence to death based on DNA isn't allowed - it might be allowed for lesser punishment, but I don't know).
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snakelegs
01-23-2008, 07:13 AM
would DNA evidence be accepted in islamic law to overturn a death sentence?
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guyabano
01-23-2008, 07:16 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
would DNA evidence be accepted in islamic law to overturn a death sentence?
also good question !
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crayon
01-23-2008, 10:00 AM
I don't see any reason why it shouldn't, snakelegs, because it's simply proving innocence.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 02:42 PM
[QUOTE=PurestAmbrosia;902145]
Originally Posted by Jayda
and also think about the people wrongly condemned to die because of mistakes in the system. mens' judgment is too imperfect to be trusted with life and death, that belongs to God. the death penalty is wrong...[/QUOTE]

Really? his semen was found in her body cavities on autopsy.. Must have been xenu's DNA then?

When you free outlaws, only outlaws are free...

Maybe you enjoy that kind of society.. I and most sane beings, don't!
I agree a 100%!

They lose the right to human rights and the right to life once they've crossed the line!!!!!!
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جوري
01-23-2008, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

It isn't allowed for adultery (that is, to sentence to death based on DNA isn't allowed - it might be allowed for lesser punishment, but I don't know).
:sl:
These are very specific details in jurisprudence, unless one is a scholar and studied in Islamic law, we can't judge whether ot not it is admissible evidence?

the thing about adulterers is I am certain none of them would submit to an internal exam to have it be used in a case against them, probably why it isn't allowed?!

:w:
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Fishman
01-23-2008, 07:16 PM
[quote=AvarAllahNoor;902421]
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

I agree a 100%!

They lose the right to human rights and the right to life once they've crossed the line!!!!!!
:sl:
Technically they don't (the Human Rights Declaration says that no part of the declaration may be interpreted to deprive others of their rights), but I think that they should. People who break other people's rights don't deserve to have them...
:w:
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia

really? his semen was found in her body cavities on autopsy.. Must have been xenu's DNA then?

When you free outlaws, only outlaws are free...
Maybe you enjoy that kind of society.. I and most sane beings, don't!

the death penalty is bigger than one case. in the same token it may be applied to those who have actually committed the crimes with which they are charged, it can also be used against people who have not. Jesse Tafero is one such person, he was executed in 1990. a third party admitted to the crime and admitted to lying that Tafero committed it. Tafero was already executed but the other person charged with the crime was legally exonerated as a result of the recant. there was a problem with his execution and he died a very terrible death.

another was Ellis Felker, executed in 1996. they had a signed confession from another suspect and DNA evidence that strongly suggested he was innocent of the crime.

the possibility for human error, a long with the strong possibility of other human faults (like prejudism, racism and lying) make it impossible for us to ever truly rule out the possibility of executing an innocent person. as long as we value life there is no way we can allow for the possibility of an innocent person being executed. the choice you suggest, between execution and freeing criminals, is not rational... as long as there are alternative punishments (like life in prison) commuting the necessity of the death penalty to something superfluous, then we have to find a very serious justification to take that extra step... i do not believe we have done that.
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor

I agree a 100%!

They lose the right to human rights and the right to life once they've crossed the line!!!!!!
so you agree then with the general principle behind guatanamo and abu ghraib?
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
So you agree then with the general principle behind guatanamo and abu ghraib?
As far as I'm aware, those held at Abu Ghraib and Guatanmo Bay, have not had any form of trial, and I know of no evidence of why they are held. BUT here we speak of criminals, such as mass murderers, rapists. So, no would be the answer to your question. As far as I'm concerned they are two completely seperate issues, and cannot be compare whatsoever. :smile:
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE=Fishman;902522]
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
:sl:
Technically they don't (the Human Rights Declaration says that no part of the declaration may be interpreted to deprive others of their rights), but I think that they should. People who break other people's rights don't deserve to have them...
:w:
(BTW that post as by me not PurestAmbrosia) :D

Like you, I agree they should have no righs at all.
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
As far as I'm aware, those held at Abu Ghraib and Guatanmo Bay, have not had any form of trial, and I know of no evidence of why they are held. BUT here we speak of criminals, such as mass murderers, rapists. So, no would be the answer to your question. As far as I'm concerned they are two completely seperate issues, and cannot be compare whatsoever. :smile:
in principle the people in abu ghraib and guantanamo all recieve military tribunals from the united states military, so due process is served and the military may treat them in any manner they choose. if they were found guilty then they do not deserve human rights. how is this different?
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جوري
01-23-2008, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
the death penalty is bigger than one case. in the same token it may be applied to those who have actually committed the crimes with which they are charged, it can also be used against people who have not. Jesse Tafero is one such person, he was executed in 1990. a third party admitted to the crime and admitted to lying that Tafero committed it. Tafero was already executed but the other person charged with the crime was legally exonerated as a result of the recant. there was a problem with his execution and he died a very terrible death.
try to use your own 'enlightened' conclusion here of death penalty being bigger than one case!

another was Ellis Felker, executed in 1996. they had a signed confession from another suspect and DNA evidence that strongly suggested he was innocent of the crime.
That is American justice for you, strong evidence is ignored in favor of the ignorant, not unlike what is going on here!

the possibility for human error, a long with the strong possibility of other human faults (like prejudism, racism and lying) make it impossible for us to ever truly rule out the possibility of executing an innocent person. as long as we value life there is no way we can allow for the possibility of an innocent person being executed. the choice you suggest, between execution and freeing criminals, is not rational... as long as there are alternative punishments (like life in prison) commuting the necessity of the death penalty to something superfluous, then we have to find a very serious justification to take that extra step... i do not believe we have done that.
Again, I have come to know you as someone who draws satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions.. You can stand outside and picket for criminals to be free and in the process get all 15 seconds of fame.......
cheers
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
in principle the people in abu ghraib and guantanamo all recieve military tribunals from the united states military, so due process is served and the military may treat them in any manner they choose. if they were found guilty then they do not deserve human rights. how is this different?
Because the world and I know they've held these people ILLEGALLY. that's how it's different!:okay:
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
try to use your own 'enlightened' conclusion here of death penalty being bigger than one case!
si,

consider the impact of the one case. in your example an actually guilty person was executed, so there is no question about whether the system is working. in my example something broke, the well is now polluted, until you can gaurantee that innocent people will not be killed (and from my example evidently you cannot) it's immoral to continue.

That is American justice for you, strong evidence is ignored in favor of the ignorant, not unlike what is going on here!
you continue to make my point... as long as ignorance plays a part in the justice system and strong evidence can be ignored, the state should not be given the authority to execute people... it is like giving matches to a child.

Again, I have come to know you as someone who draws satisfaction out of simplistic conclusions.. You can stand outside and picket for criminals to be free and in the process get all 15 seconds of fame.......
cheers
did you consider the possibility this is just that simple? innocent people are murdered alongside criminals when you execute, i don't believe that makes the death penalty worthwhile. why do you?
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Because the world and I know they've held these people ILLEGALLY. that's how it's different!:okay:
...but as i just showed in the world you know people have been executed on showtrials and (as PurestAmbrosia put it) 'strong evidence is ignored in favor of the ignorant' (sic).
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جوري
01-23-2008, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
i don't believe that makes the death penalty worthwhile. why do you?
I guess because I can't sort through all your psychobabble!
You are simply ineffectual at making a solid point!


cheers
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 07:54 PM
okay
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
...but as i just showed in the world you know people have been executed on showtrials and (as PurestAmbrosia put it) 'strong evidence is ignored in favor of the ignorant' (sic).
How many serial killers have you known in the USA that have been put down (for want of a better word) and have later been found to be not guilty? huh, please do tell? As my argument here is about such animals, not joe who stole a banana from the local Spar.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
Okay
lol aww, you sound hurt.:okay:
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
How many serial killers have you known in the USA that have been put down (for want of a better word) and have later been found to be not guilty? huh, please do tell? As my argument here is about such animals, not joe who stole a banana from the local Spar.
the death penalty is applied to more than just serial killers... the men mentioned in my earlier post (link) were convicted of murder, executed and later exonerated.
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
lol aww, you sound hurt.:okay:
lol no, i'm quite okay. that is very sweet though, gracias for your concern :)
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Mikayeel
01-23-2008, 08:30 PM
So guys lets come to a conclusion, if the dead penalty was justice! and mankind made no mistake in it(killing the wrong person) or torturing him in any kind of way, just a straight plain death.. WOuld people then agree that the Death penalty should be introduced back??
To those who kill others for no reason...(and have no mental sickness themself???)
Would it then be fair to have it back?

salam
Reply

Danah
01-23-2008, 08:30 PM
I think it has some good sides
if there is no such a strong penalty, crimes will not be reduced. Also, there will be no justice to the criminals and innocent, innocents will not gain their rights.
so, I think it will insure increasing in the society because without it every one will take crimes easily.
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snakelegs
01-23-2008, 08:37 PM
i'm still against it.
it would be impossible to be sure there would be no mistakes.
we do not have the same justice for rich and poor.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 08:39 PM
Ya, I'm all for it!

Shall I make a petition on the No 10 Website...?
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Mikayeel
01-23-2008, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i'm still against it.
it would be impossible to be sure there would be no mistakes.
we do not have the same justice for rich and poor.
no i said if we can be sure, and all evidence is 100% and the guy admit he killed... would you then agree with it or not?
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Whatsthepoint
01-23-2008, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
no i said if we can be sure, and all evidence is 100% and the guy admit he killed... would you then agree with it or not?
Depends on the crime..
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Jayda
01-23-2008, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
So guys lets come to a conclusion, if the dead penalty was justice! and mankind made no mistake in it(killing the wrong person) or torturing him in any kind of way, just a straight plain death.. WOuld people then agree that the Death penalty should be introduced back??
To those who kill others for no reason...(and have no mental sickness themself???)
Would it then be fair to have it back?

salam
only if God allowed it. my biggest objection is that life and death belong to Him... we should be certain that He allows us to do this, and then we should be certain that we will not fail Him by taking innocent life.
Reply

snakelegs
01-23-2008, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
no i said if we can be sure, and all evidence is 100% and the guy admit he killed... would you then agree with it or not?
no, i don't think i would. if killing is wrong, the state shouldn't do it either.
in some cases, i might have to do some deep thinking, though.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
No, i don't think i would. if killing is wrong, the state shouldn't do it either.

In some cases, i might have to do some deep thinking, though.
You should reconsider. :okay:
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
01-23-2008, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Jayda
Only if God allowed it. my biggest objection is that life and death belong to Him... we should be certain that He allows us to do this, and then we should be certain that we will not fail Him by taking innocent life.
Well God allows good agaisnt evil, no? It's the same concept. War/Defence against the tyrants and such.
Reply

truemuslim
01-23-2008, 10:13 PM
i think it will.. of course no one listens to rules... like me thread about jesus not being god.... lets just hope ppl actually dont do serious crimes...
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-23-2008, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
No one is attacking you.. and No one should take a pleasure in putting someone to death, it is as necessary as you underoing radiation or chemo for a tumor that is killing you...the rest of your comment is a logical fallay.
Or should we follow that same logic and say, well this anaplastic change is really endogenous, meant to be there and if it is killing me, I shouldn't be a hypocrite by killing it back..

think about what you are saying and suggesting..

peace!
I am suggesting that we are all humans, and should thus be treated like it. Two wrongs do not make a right.

What murderers and rapists do as very wrong and sick. But it is wrong and sick for us to kill them just because they were bad to others. It does nothing to help.

Also, many innocent people are killed who had nothing to do with the situation.

But as I said from the get go, people will never agree. I am arguing my side right now, and I am sure that you will come back with your argument. But your argument will never satisfy me, nor will mine satisfy yours. The best we can do is agree to disagree!
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-23-2008, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I guess because I can't sort through all your psychobabble!
You are simply ineffectual at making a solid point!


cheers
Why do you put down others in every single discussion? You always seem to feel that you are right and everyone else is wrong, and they must just be terrible people.

Please, stop insulting others. It is a sign of weakness.

Jayda made her point. It was YOU who did not even respond to it, but instead just put her down and say terrible things about her.

You need to grow up.
Reply

جوري
01-23-2008, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Why do you put down others in every single discussion? You always seem to feel that you are right and everyone else is wrong, and they must just be terrible people.

Please, stop insulting others. It is a sign of weakness.

Jayda made her point. It was YOU who did not even respond to it, but instead just put her down and say terrible things about her.

You need to grow up.
It is a sign of strength indeed on your part to coax hypocrites!...
whatever she gets she has actually earned from her earlier posts and she knows exactly what they were!
If you have something of substance to impart on the subject matter do so, otherwise retract those claws, your habitual characteristics and mindset isn't something I can dignify with a response..

cheers
Reply

جوري
01-23-2008, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
am suggesting that we are all humans, and should thus be treated like it. Two wrongs do not make a right.
I don't see a 'wrong' in justice.. I see a recycled adage misplaced!

What murderers and rapists do as very wrong and sick. But it is wrong and sick for us to kill them just because they were bad to others. It does nothing to help.
How does implementing justice not help? should we all live in a lawless state, because you think that crimes shouldn't be punished?

Also, many innocent people are killed who had nothing to do with the situation.
I agree, the innocents are killed and their killers walk free!
But as I said from the get go, people will never agree. I am arguing my side right now, and I am sure that you will come back with your argument. But your argument will never satisfy me, nor will mine satisfy yours. The best we can do is agree to disagree!
I have no problem with that... I question then why whenever this is put to rest, another one of you comes with an effusively insincere emotional outburst?


cheers
Reply

InToTheRain
01-23-2008, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Why do you put down others in every single discussion? You always seem to feel that you are right and everyone else is wrong, and they must just be terrible people.

Please, stop insulting others. It is a sign of weakness.

Jayda made her point. It was YOU who did not even respond to it, but instead just put her down and say terrible things about her.

You need to grow up.
:ooh: two wrongs don't make a right remember. Besides Sister Ambrosia was attacking the opinion not the persons contribution to the whole Forum so you should take a chill pill :ooh: ... tut tut

Keep em coming sister Ambrosia :thumbs_up
Reply

جوري
01-23-2008, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
:ooh: two wrongs don't make a right remember. Besides Sister Ambrosia was attacking the opinion not the persons contribution to the whole Forum so you should take a chill pill :ooh: ... tut tut

Keep em coming sister Ambrosia :thumbs_up
He is the 'sensitive' sort, I am accustomed to his fickle Heckle & Jeckle style.
I wouldn't make much of it..
Baraka Allah feek

:w:
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Malaikah
01-24-2008, 01:26 AM
:sl:

About innocent people being put to death - well, God is the one who ordered that the killer should be put to death and He is also the one who gave us method to follow when sentencing people to death, so as long as we follow the method that God outlined for us then I don't see why there should be an issue.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 02:22 AM
God is the best judge, and it is he who will deal with the convict in the hereafter...

its our job to get the convict there :P
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

About innocent people being put to death - well, God is the one who ordered that the killer should be put to death and He is also the one who gave us method to follow when sentencing people to death, so as long as we follow the method that God outlined for us then I don't see why there should be an issue.
I just love it when people put there head in a pile and ignore the obvious.

Any thing handled by men is flawed.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I just love it when people put there head in a pile and ignore the obvious.
.

Do you actualy enjoy such things? :P

Any thing handled by men is flawed
What exactly do you mean by that wilberhum?

Omari
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-24-2008, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
It is a sign of strength indeed on your part to coax hypocrites!...
whatever she gets she has actually earned from her earlier posts and she knows exactly what they were!
If you have something of substance to impart on the subject matter do so, otherwise retract those claws, your habitual characteristics and mindset isn't something I can dignify with a response..

cheers
You see, here you go again.. Putting people down.
Jayda is a great person. Just because you disagree with her, does not give you the right to be such a jerk about it.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't see a 'wrong' in justice.. I see a recycled adage misplaced!


How does implementing justice not help? should we all live in a lawless state, because you think that crimes shouldn't be punished?


I agree, the innocents are killed and their killers walk free!


I have no problem with that... I question then why whenever this is put to rest, another one of you comes with an effusively insincere emotional outburst?


cheers
Here you go, complaining like always.

I have said twice now that the best we can do is agree to disagree. The reason why is because this argument is going nowhere. You are arguing that "justice" is being done by killing someone. which is sick in my opinion. Just down right immoral and disgusting.
Sorry, but I do not subscribe to the problematic "eye for an eye" belief. It does nothing but causes hate and takes away from love.
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
He is the 'sensitive' sort, I am accustomed to his fickle Heckle & Jeckle style.
I wouldn't make much of it..
Baraka Allah feek

:w:
I am sensitive to people who constantly put down others so they can try and make themselves feel better.

All you do in half the threads is complain and complain and complain. and you just bicker and make fun of others. You have no regard to courtesy that everyone deserves.

And Jayda does not want to offend you, or be mean, because she is a good person. So she just says "ok", just leaving you to believe what you want because she is strong enough to say "who cares what they think."

I wish I could be a good person like her and just let things pass. And I wish you could too. You are not the center of the world.. Remember that. Life does not revolve around you and your rudeness. You obviously have too much time on your hands.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 02:50 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
You see, here you go again.. Putting people down.
Jayda is a great person. Just because you disagree with her, does not give you the right to be such a jerk about it.

and calling somone a JERK isn't putting down? thank you for sharing your logic (Y)

Here you go, complaining like always.

I have said twice now that the best we can do is agree to disagree. The reason why is because this argument is going nowhere. You are arguing that "justice" is being done by killing someone. which is sick in my opinion. Just down right immoral and disgusting.
Ah, and raping, ruining lives, torturing, stealing isn't "immoral and disgusting?"
Sorry, but I do not subscribe to the problematic "eye for an eye" belief. It does nothing but causes hate and takes away from love.
On the conturary, it not only rids the society of the anti-social element, but also sets an example to others, I think it's an idea worth practicing.

I am sensitive to people who constantly put down others so they can try and make themselves feel better.

...Okay... i have read every post, i don't see where she puts anyone down, unless providing facts to destroy the false is putting down.

All you do in half the threads is complain and complain and complain. and you just bicker and make fun of others. You have no regard to courtesy that everyone deserves.

Wow, look who is complaining now. And anyhow, if you are so sensitive that you have to back away by saying such things, why participate in such debates?

And Jayda does not want to offend you, or be mean, because she is a good person. So she just says "ok", just leaving you to believe what you want because she is strong enough to say "who cares what they think."

That may be strength in your mind, but in some it's weakness. A sign of arrogance aswel, perhaps.

I wish I could be a good person like her and just let things pass. And I wish you could too. You are not the center of the world.. Remember that. Life does not revolve around you and your rudeness. You obviously have too much time on your hands.

Brother, I understand that you are frustrated, but you don't have the right to say such things about a person when in fact it lacks evidence. I don't see any post where she says anything to directly insult anybody in particular. And if a person feels that way, then it is simply their misinterpretation, not her fault.

Peace.
Omari
Reply

Malaikah
01-24-2008, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I just love it when people put there head in a pile and ignore the obvious.

Any thing handled by men is flawed.
I'm not ignoring anything. The fact is that it is the best we have. If a mistake is made God will correct it in the next life. But the one doing the sentencing is not the one to blame as long as he followed the law like God commanded him to.
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by Omari
Do you actualy enjoy such things? :P
<Sarcasm on>Of course.<Sarcasm=off>
Amazement would be more accurate

What exactly do you mean by that wilberhum?
Any thing administered by man is flawed. Even your so called "God's Law's", will be administered by men and therefore the results will be flawed"

Omari
There is no system in the world that functions perfectly.

There never has been and there never will be.

If you execute people, at some point you will execute an innocent person.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
There is no system in the world that functions perfectly.

There never has been and there never will be.

If you execute people, at some point you will execute an innocent person.
See, we're not discussing the execution of innocents, but rather of those who are convicted of executing innocents.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 03:11 AM
whats wrong with executing them?
[yes, yes, i've read them all]
The Islamic Law [shariah] isn't exactly PERFECT, but it was for the time, and it could still be "edited" to match modern civilization, and work.
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by Omari
See, we're not discussing the execution of innocents, but rather of those who are convicted of executing innocents.
Omari, you are neither that blind nor stupid. :uuh:
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Omari, you are neither that blind nor stupid. :uuh:
Thank you?
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Omari
01-24-2008, 03:14 AM
I don't see where i made a mistake in my statement.

You said
If you execute people, at some point you will execute an innocent person.
how am I executing an innocent person if im only executing an anti-social element?
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by Omari
I don't see where i made a mistake in my statement.

You said
how am I executing an innocent person if im only executing an anti-social element?
Because you are not perfect and neither is your judgment.
Reply

جوري
01-24-2008, 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
You see, here you go again.. Putting people down.
Jayda is a great person. Just because you disagree with her, does not give you the right to be such a jerk about it.
-- I find that your public displays are more appealing to the vulgar taste and prefer that you either address the topic at hand or refrain from making a fool of yourself?


Here you go, complaining like always.
Actually I find that to be an adequate characteristic of your person. The forum isn't the place extend out, project or displace your feelings.. that is what your shrink is for! Further, If you didn't complain so often you might just find a creed a sexual preference, be less stupefied, befuddled and there would be some sort of consistency to what you write so we are not all aghast with your ever developing self.

I have said twice now that the best we can do is agree to disagree. The reason why is because this argument is going nowhere. You are arguing that "justice" is being done by killing someone. which is sick in my opinion. Just down right immoral and disgusting.
Sorry, but I do not subscribe to the problematic "eye for an eye" belief. It does nothing but causes hate and takes away from love.
If you agree to disagree why do you keep hammering your warped sense of morality?
I am not arguing that justice is carried by killing someone. I am arguing that criminals have to pay for their crimes. If you don't understand or can't read beyond the level of secondary school underachiever then it is a problem that you should seek to resolve privately... just stop wasting my time on every post to ptyalize banalities...
There are many things about you I find immoral and revolting, thus I'd refrain from writing with such bravado it might just bite you back, or is that your niche?...
I am sensitive to people who constantly put down others so they can try and make themselves feel better.
I can't think of one a single reason to want to descend down to word play with you or your friend. If you can't show respect to other people's sanctities on their host site of all places, then be ready to handle the consequence! I have zero tolerance..

All you do in half the threads is complain and complain and complain. and you just bicker and make fun of others. You have no regard to courtesy that everyone deserves.
courtesy is earned. You haven't earned it!.. Again, please refrain from using your bromide comments and/or observations on every paragraph.. I think we ought to impose a restriction on redundancy!


And Jayda does not want to offend you, or be mean, because she is a good person. So she just says "ok", just leaving you to believe what you want because she is strong enough to say "who cares what they think."
More platitudes, or are you running for the most bathetic novel?
I wish I could be a good person like her and just let things pass. And I wish you could too. You are not the center of the world.. Remember that. Life does not revolve around you and your rudeness. You obviously have too much time on your hands.
I enjoyed that middle school delivery---you have everyone's blessings to go be like just her then, I think she might just be up your alley and do revolve else where, show us how busy you are by scarmming!




cheers
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-24-2008, 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Maybe you can profess your undying love to her by PM?
or should I let out the canned laughter now that you've pulled over the corner with your BB gun?
So now I have an undying love for someone simply because I am defending someone? Wow.

Actually I find that to be an adequate assessment of yourself. If you didn't complain so often you might just find a creed a sexual preference, be less stupefied and befuddled and there would be some sort of consistency to what you write so we are not all aghast with your ever developing self.
what on EARTH does my sexual preference have to do with ANYTHING? It has NOTHING to do with anything. It is totally irrelevant. How dare you come on here and post this bull that has nothing to do with my debating abilities.

And you say I complain a lot? What a hypocrite you really are. YOU complain way more then me. That is all you do when it comes to non Muslim issues.. Just non stop complaining and harassing.

And how am I "ever developing?" Because I changed my religion while I just so happened to be a member on here? Um, ok.. I guess converts should be picked at too!

As for my sexuality.. I have ALWAYS felt the way I do. You can disagree with me and complain all you want, but you are not me. You have no clue what I feel. And you have no right to tell me what I feel. I know what I like. And it has always been that way. So please, do not even try to tell me otherwise, because you are not me and do not know.

If you agree to disagree why do you keep hammering your inferior views and warped sense of morality?
I am not arguing that justice is carried by killing someone. I am arguing that criminals have to pay for their crimes. If you don't understand that, then there is nothing I can do about it... just stop wasting my time by popping on every post to ptyalize banalities... There are many things about you I find immoral and revolting, thus I'd refrain from writing with such bravado it might just bite you back, or is that your niche?...
Oh really? Because you seem to ALWAYS find a way to mention it in your writing(as we can see from above.) that is all you ever do when you speak to me is complain and complain. You ALWAYS find some reason to quote what I say, take it out of context, or something like that. If anything, you should stop wasting my time.. How about you stop replying to any of my posts?

And now my views are "morally inferior." LOL. Here you go again with the "I am right, you are wrong, I am best you are horrible" dilema.

On my first post, I put that we will all have different viewpoints and so I would not debate about it. You know why I said that? Because I KNEW that you would troll in and comment. It was because of YOU that I did that. And, it did not work.. You come in and respond anyways. Very typical of you.



I can't think of one a single reason to descend down to word play with you or your friend. If you can't show respect to other people's sanctities on their host site of all places, then be ready to handle the consequence! I have zero tolerance..
I DON'T SHOW RESPECT? Look who is talking!! I never said your view was inferior. I never said that your views was "psychobabble." I said that we just have to AGREE to DISAGREE and leave it at that.

Yet you, like always, come on and do not show respect.

and unless you pay for this site, then it is not your host site.

courtesy is earned. You haven't earned it!.. Also please refrain from using your bromide comments and/or observations on every paragraph.. I think we ought to impose a restriction on redundancy!
Right back at you.


More drivel and platitudes or are you running for the most bathetic novel?
For saying what is true? You are hilarious...

lol.. I enjoyed that middle school delivery---you have everyone's blessings to go be like her then, I think she might just be up your alley and do revolve else where, show us how busy you are by scarmming!
So because I defend people I must "love them" and all that? Ugh, you are so immature. When are you going to grow up?

I would bet that you are some young teenager posting their nonsense, posting as someone older. I honestly doubt you are an adult.

cheers
Ok
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-24-2008, 05:43 AM
Ah, I see that you changed your post....

Well, here is my response to the "modification" you added.

-- I find that your public displays are more appealing to the vulgar taste and prefer that you either address the topic at hand or refrain from making a fool of yourself?
Then let us PM and we can discuss it.
Reply

جوري
01-24-2008, 05:58 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
So now I have an undying love for someone simply because I am defending someone? Wow.
I couldn't care less what you are doing here, it has nothing to do with the topic, and it is repelling-- do it in private!

what on EARTH does my sexual preference have to do with ANYTHING? It has NOTHING to do with anything. It is totally irrelevant. How dare you come on here and post this bull that has nothing to do with my debating abilities.
Show me your debate!

And you say I complain a lot? What a hypocrite you really are. YOU complain way more then me. That is all you do when it comes to non Muslim issues.. Just non stop complaining and harassing.
I'd hand you a tissue if you weren't such a dynamo of a hyperbole!

And how am I "ever developing?" Because I changed my religion while I just so happened to be a member on here? Um, ok.. I guess converts should be picked at too!
No, you are often discrepant on all your views.. It is my sincere feeling that you are suffering from severe disintegration of personality with erratic writing, childish mannerisms and very bizarre behavior!

As for my sexuality.. I have ALWAYS felt the way I do. You can disagree with me and complain all you want, but you are not me. You have no clue what I feel. And you have no right to tell me what I feel. I know what I like. And it has always been that way. So please, do not even try to tell me otherwise, because you are not me and do not know.
There there!


Oh really? Because you seem to ALWAYS find a way to mention it in your writing(as we can see from above.) that is all you ever do when you speak to me is complain and complain. You ALWAYS find some reason to quote what I say, take it out of context, or something like that. If anything, you should stop wasting my time.. How about you stop replying to any of my posts?
stop quoting me and you won't receive replies back :sunny:

And now my views are "morally inferior." LOL. Here you go again with the "I am right, you are wrong, I am best you are horrible" dilema.
Morality as suits society has nothing to do with either of us. You are irrational, irrational people shouldn't be influencing the laws of society!

On my first post, I put that we will all have different viewpoints and so I would not debate about it. You know why I said that? Because I KNEW that you would troll in and comment. It was because of YOU that I did that. And, it did not work.. You come in and respond anyways. Very typical of you.
Your comments/observations are leading in attempts to guide the respondent's answer.. try a different approach you might have a different response!


I DON'T SHOW RESPECT? Look who is talking!! I never said your view was inferior. I never said that your views was "psychobabble." I said that we just have to AGREE to DISAGREE and leave it at that.
please tell me, is this a partial or selective loss of memory? oh thank God for your presence here.. you are ever the diplomat! :rolleyes:

Yet you, like always, come on and do not show respect.
I'd also refrain from such terms as 'always or never' if you wished to loan your opinions more credence

and unless you pay for this site, then it is not your host site.
I am glad you brought that up.. some of us will pay a maintenance monthly fee for this site, we indeed hope your ilk will be gone by then!



For saying what is true? You are hilarious...
happy puppet syndrome on top of schizophrenia? this is indeed serious!
So because I defend people I must "love them" and all that? Ugh, you are so immature. When are you going to grow up?
we'll have to wait for you to take the dive!
I would bet that you are some young teenager posting their nonsense, posting as someone older. I honestly doubt you are an adult.

Ok
ah.. what a zany sense of humor..


cheers
Reply

Malaikah
01-24-2008, 09:13 AM
:sl:

Hey people, as entertaining as this might be... I can't help but notice it is kinda off topic. :)
Reply

Mikayeel
01-24-2008, 09:20 AM
Here you go, complaining like always.

I have said twice now that the best we can do is agree to disagree. The reason why is because this argument is going nowhere. You are arguing that "justice" is being done by killing someone. which is sick in my opinion. Just down right immoral and disgusting.
Sorry, but I do not subscribe to the problematic "eye for an eye" belief. It does nothing but causes hate and takes away from love.
So you think there is any love as it is now? I dont see any... thats why everyone is complaining.. Thats why people debate so much on bringing back the death penalty.. I am amazed by your level of ignorance.. Because this none death penalty law is clearly not working as it is showing now, why not giving it a try and bring the law back for the 'serious crimes'? Maybe then you will find love..
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
So you think there is any love as it is now? I dont see any... thats why everyone is complaining.. Thats why people debate so much on bringing back the death penalty.. I am amazed by your level of ignorance.. Because this none death penalty law is clearly not working as it is showing now, why not giving it a try and bring the law back for the 'serious crimes'? Maybe then you will find love..
One of the reasons the death penalty was abolished was because it doesn't work. Removing the death penalty didn't work either.

An intelligent person would come to the obvious conclusion, different levels of punishment is not much of a deterrent.
Reply

InToTheRain
01-24-2008, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
An intelligent person would come to the obvious conclusion, different levels of punishment is not much of a deterrent.
On the contrary, only an idiot would give the same punishment for every crime. The punishment has to fit the crime. You don't give the rapist and a the dude that stole a crisp from the Kwiki mart the same punishment, the level of punishment differs according to the crime.
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
On the contrary, only an idiot would give the same punishment for every crime. The punishment has to fit the crime. You don't give the rapist and a the dude that stole a crisp from the Kwiki mart the same punishment, the level of punishment differs according to the crime.
On the contrary? :offended:

No one has suggested the stupidly you are touting. :uuh:
Reply

InToTheRain
01-24-2008, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
On the contrary? :offended:

No one has suggested the stupidly you are touting. :uuh:
"diffrent levels of punishment is not much of a detterent" --- this is biggest BS I have heard is what I am saying. Cappish? :ooh:

O, and "And intelligent person" wouldn't come to that conclusion, only an idiot would is what I am saying :ooh:

I hope I have made it clear now billy boy :D
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
"diffrent levels of punishment is not much of a detterent" --- this is biggest BS I have heard is what I am saying. Cappish? :ooh:

O, and "And intelligent person" wouldn't come to that conclusion, only an idiot would is what I am saying :ooh:

I hope I have made it clear now billy boy :D
You have made it quite clear that you have no concept of the correlation between crime and punishment. :offended:

You need a good read from a psychology book. :shade:
Reply

chacha_jalebi
01-24-2008, 08:25 PM
cough cough :D
Reply

InToTheRain
01-24-2008, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You have made it quite clear that you have no concept of the correlation between crime and punishment. :offended:
How so? :ooh:

Originally Posted by wilberhum
You need a good read from a psychology book. :shade:
I wouldn't mind reading them actually :ooh: I have no psychology books :( ask your shrink if he can provide some for me. He should have the full range if he is working on you :D
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
How so? :ooh:



I wouldn't mind reading them actually :ooh: I have no psychology books :( ask your shrink if he can provide some for me. He should have the full range if he is working on you :D
The fact that you ignored chacha_jalebi proves my point. :D

I just have to respect cool mods. :shade:
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I just have to respect cool mods. :shade:
SUCK UP! *COUGH*

...
SNEEZE*
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 08:54 PM
I repeat:

It isn't our job to kill a criminal,
thats god's job.
Our job is to introduce him:P
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 08:56 PM
^^ LOOOOLLLLLL UR HILARIOUS...both posts..lololol
Reply

InToTheRain
01-24-2008, 08:56 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The fact that you ignored chacha_jalebi proves my point. :D

I just have to respect cool mods. :shade:
LIES! I saw his post only after I posted mine. His cough sounds bad :ooh: having some Lemsip might help though :D
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^^ LOOOOLLLLLL UR HILARIOUS...both posts..lololol
LOL im sooo buddy"ing" you :P

but seriously, if somone is going to commit 5 murders in his lifetime, why not get rid of that "lifetime" and make it very short time?

LOL! that made no sence, but I know you know what I mean. :P

Omari
Reply

wilberhum
01-24-2008, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
SUCK UP! *COUGH*

...
SNEEZE*
Glad it didn't make you pass gas. :offended:

chacha_jalebi is cool, Woodrow is the most cool. :shade:

On the other hand there are mods that make respect almost imposable.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:08 PM
Methods of punishment:

If rape:

1) Make the person marry the victim,
2) Destroy his...thingy.
3) Kill him,
4) Kill him slowly.
5) Skin him and then kill him.
6) Life time imprisonment,[Literaly]
7) MAKE him a muslim, if he disagrees choose from any method from 2-5
8) Put him in a bag....[lol]
9) Blind him with pepperspray
10) All of the above.

If Murder:

1) Make him beg for forgivness from the relative of the victim,
2) If the relative does not forgive, kill him
3) If the relative wants to kill him, let them
4) Kill him yourself
5) Take him to jail for 10 days and then kill him, [to show everyone and provide an example]
6) All of the above

If Steal:

If the stolen good was because of hunger and survival
1) Shelter them
2) Give them clothes
3) Feed them

If the stolen good was for the sake of stealing

1) Cut off one of his hand
2) all of the above

Glad it didn't make you pass gas
well now that you mention it...
LOL jks
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:09 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Glad it didn't make you pass gas. :offended:

chacha_jalebi is cool, Woodrow is the most cool. :shade:

On the other hand there are mods that make respect almost imposable.
hmm..if u were a mod i would think it was u..

Originally Posted by Omari
LOL im sooo buddy"ing" you :P

but seriously, if somone is going to commit 5 murders in his lifetime, why not get rid of that "lifetime" and make it very short time?

LOL! that made no sence, but I know you know what I mean. :P

Omari

i kno what u mean lol...:okay:

:w:
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
I repeat:

It isn't our job to kill a criminal,
thats god's job.
Our job is to introduce him:P
the thing is nobody knows for sure whether God exists and what his instructions about punishing "anti-social elements" are, that is, if he even cares about human kind..
We can't execute people on behalf of a legally non-existent being, can we?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:17 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
If Steal:
If the stolen good was because of hunger and survival
1) Shelter them
2) Give them clothes
3) Feed them
Is than an official islamic ruling?
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:17 PM
We can't execute people on behalf of a legally non-existent being, can we?
Well, if it doesn't go against humanity as a whole, why not?

And I can provide many reasons for such an execution that may and will benefit mankind...

It all depends on where the opinion of people like you stand, and most of the time, such opinions won't be changed.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Is than an official islamic ruling?
Yes, it is.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:18 PM
A question for muslims:
What are the crimes you think deserve the capital punishment?
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Methods of punishment:

If rape:

1) Make the person marry the victim,
2) Destroy his...thingy.
3) Kill him,
4) Kill him slowly.
5) Skin him and then kill him.
6) Life time imprisonment,[Literaly]
7) MAKE him a muslim, if he disagrees choose from any method from 2-5
8) Put him in a bag....[lol]
9) Blind him with pepperspray
10) All of the above.

If Murder:

1) Make him beg for forgivness from the relative of the victim,
2) If the relative does not forgive, kill him
3) If the relative wants to kill him, let them
4) Kill him yourself
5) Take him to jail for 10 days and then kill him, [to show everyone and provide an example]
6) All of the above

If Steal:

If the stolen good was because of hunger and survival
1) Shelter them
2) Give them clothes
3) Feed them

If the stolen godo was for the sake of stealing

1) Cut off one of his hand
2) all of the above


well now that you mention it...
LOL jks



LOOOOLLLZ i thought only my brothers had sick minds (16 yrs old, and 17 almost 18 yrs old) but u just named things i always hear from them while watching a sick movie..they say its gonna happen then force me to stay...just for torture..lol...

now that we are here lemme tell u what my bro said... to make him feel the pain forever but not die... shoot his legs, his arms and tie him to a chair than torture him in other sickening ways but not too bad that he dies...
i wanna find out where they get all this sickkkk stuff...:thumbs_do


*cough Rmovies cough*

p.s. WILBERHum..JUST SO U KNO>>>> MODS DONT HAVE FAVORITES
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:20 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Yes, it is.
I like it. My views on stealing are roughly the same.
I hold similar views for some other crimes as well.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A question for muslims:
What are the crimes you think deserve the capital punishment?

The worst crimes:

Rape
Murder
Genocide
the practice of using Weapons of Mass destruction... lol

Peace Omari
Reply

snakelegs
01-24-2008, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Methods of punishment:

If rape:

1) Make the person marry the victim,
2) Destroy his...thingy.
3) Kill him,
4) Kill him slowly.
5) Skin him and then kill him.
6) Life time imprisonment,[Literaly]
7) MAKE him a muslim, if he disagrees choose from any method from 2-5
8) Put him in a bag....[lol]
9) Blind him with pepperspray
10) All of the above.
(11) make casserole
If Murder:

1) Make him beg for forgivness from the relative of the victim,
2) If the relative does not forgive, kill him
3) If the relative wants to kill him, let them
4) Kill him yourself
5) Take him to jail for 10 days and then kill him, [to show everyone and provide an example]
6) All of the above
7) suggest meatloaf or pot roast

If Steal:

If the stolen good was because of hunger and survival
1) Shelter them
2) Give them clothes
3) Feed them

If the stolen good was for the sake of stealing

1) Cut off one of his hand
2) all of the above
3) cut off anything that sticks out


well now that you mention it...
LOL jks
sorry, couldn't control myself.
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A question for muslims:
What are the crimes you think deserve the capital punishment?
all crimes in my opinion.. and no stealin candy from a baby doesnt count as a crime...well for young ppl it doesnt for wilberhum...thats his choice.. and murdering stealin bank running ppl over in ur tiiight car (only fun in games on xbox360 not in real life) messin up the city and costin them like $144,000 (need for speed most wanted) all that sick stuff

of course y'all take this stuff regular daily routines.. oh a girl got kidnapped today on the news (SAW it on the news not got kidnapped on the news) and they found her body also today disenigrated and sickening by a railroad track with her stepsister... aww poor girl anyway back to my perrrfect life..


oh and another crime is like the virginia tech thing that happened..sometime..i forget..
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Well, if it doesn't go against humanity as a whole, why not?

And I can provide many reasons for such an execution that may and will benefit mankind...

It all depends on where the opinion of people like you stand, and most of the time, such opinions won't be changed.
A lot of things may benefit mankind, which doesn't make them ethical and acceptable.
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I like it. My views on stealing are roughly the same.
I hold similar views for some other crimes as well.
Brother, Islam is a religion of peace, and it is the kindest among the others.

Do you know how Muslims are supposed to treat their slaves/servants?
[Yes, off topic, but whats the harm?]

We MUST give them what we wear
we MUST feed them what we eat
we MUST shelter them where we sleep

OUR NEIGHBORS:
Did you know that if your son had a toy that your neighbour's kid can't afford your kid isnt allowed to play with it in their presence?

If your neighbour is hungry and has no food, your food becomes haram for you

THERE ARE SOOO MANY THINGS...

And about crimes, we are always just with the criminals, and justice should be made according to the benefit of everyone.

Peace,
Omari
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
The worst crimes:

Rape
Murder
Genocide
the practice of using Weapons of Mass destruction... lol

Peace Omari
What about adultery, homosexuality etc?
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
sorry, couldn't control myself.
LOL!!

AHHAHAHAHAHHA

man! i totally forgive you for editing my post LOL!

Peace
Omari

Keep them coming.:thumbs_up
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:28 PM
okey now that this thread is getting sicker than it already was.. and im in the typing mood i better go and continue my report i havent started thats due today...

oh shi-- sorry
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What about adultery, homosexuality etc?
Would you like to give me the list on your mind? And I will use my best judgment.

Adultry...? I think they should be gotten rid of from the society. [For many reasons] How to get rid of them is totally up to the government, but just take them away!

Homosexuality...? This is a question that I am not "knowledgable" enough to answer. There are many debates, and researches that are being conducted to determine wether Homosexuality is a choice or inevitability. A punishment can't be given to somone who has no choice. So, Like i said, i am not fit to answer that question

Give me the list though

Omari
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by Omari

Would you like to give me the list on your mind? And I will use my best judgment.

Adultry...? I think they should be gotten rid of from the society. [For many reasons] How to get rid of them is totally up to the government, but just take them away!

Homosexuality...? This is a question that I am not "knowledgable" enough to answer. There are many debates, and researches that are being conducted to determine wether Homosexuality is a choice or inevitability. A punishment can't be given to somone who has no choice. So, Like i said, i am not fit to answer that question

Give me the list though

Omari
Here's the list...
Blasphemy
Apostacy
Homosexuality
Polytheism
and the rest of the "moral crimes" that do not hurt any one (at least not directly)

Do you think a pedophile holds an equal responsibility for killing a child than a parent who killed it for legal/financial purposes?
Do you think a rapist carefully thinks over and plans his actions? Or is it a more or less spontanous decision?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Brother, Islam is a religion of peace, and it is the kindest among the others.

Do you know how Muslims are supposed to treat their slaves/servants?
[Yes, off topic, but whats the harm?]

We MUST give them what we wear
we MUST feed them what we eat
we MUST shelter them where we sleep

OUR NEIGHBORS:
Did you know that if your son had a toy that your neighbour's kid can't afford your kid isnt allowed to play with it in their presence?

If your neighbour is hungry and has no food, your food becomes haram for you

THERE ARE SOOO MANY THINGS...

And about crimes, we are always just with the criminals, and justice should be made according to the benefit of everyone.

Peace,
Omari
This isn't going to convince me to convert to Islam. It will however improve my generally good opinion about Muhammad.

Thumbs up for Muhammad!
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Here's the list...
Blasphemy That's a crime? no that dosn't deserve death penalty.
Apostacy is a decision, not a crime. No does'nt deserve death, unless he is leaving islam to commit attrocities.Homosexuality Like i said before, can't answer
Polytheism Nah, they can worship as many as they want, as long as they aren't bringing muslim people the wrong news. It's their life in the end.
and the rest of the "moral crimes" that do not hurt any one (at least not directly) These aren't even crimes, lol.

Do you think a pedophile holds an equal responsibility for killing a child than a parent who killed it for legal/financial purposes?
Yes, Murdering an innocent is Haram for any purpose, ANY purpose at all.
Do you think a rapist carefully thinks over and plans his actions? Or is it a more spontanous decision?
Un/fortunatly, I'm not a rapist, so i can't answer that question. In MY opinion though i think it's a spontanous decision, but a decision nontheless. Therefore he deserves punishment, how sever? that depends on the victim's state.

Hope it helps
Peace
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:44 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
This isn't going to convince me to convert to Islam. It will however improve my generally good opinion about Muhammad.

Thumbs up for Muhammad!
Im glad it did something, and it wasn't intended to make anyone convert, just as long as you get some things cleared up about the religion :)

Ask me for more things, anytime.
Omari
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:47 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Unfortunatly, I'm not a rapist, so i can't answer that question. In MY opinion though i think it's a spontanous decision, but a decision nontheless. Therefore he deserves punishment, how sever? that depends on the victim's state.

Hope it helps
Peace
EDIT: fortunatly...lol...






i didnt even know what half that stuff he said was... good thing i got dictionary.com in my favorites.. and yes nothing he said was a 'crime' really except innocent killins... what does anyone evn benifit from killin innocent ppl?? if it was someone who did something verryy bad to u than that would be an excuse (sorta) not even a good enuf excuse to go to heaven... but killin innocent ppl ??? u kill them... then u die...then allah punishes u..then u go to hell..then what?
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
EDIT: fortunatly...lol...
HOLY! i said UNFORTUNATLY? omg. AZTAGHFURRULLAH
and jazakallah for telling me

whoa...

EDIT: Wait a sec. it makes sence, i cant answer his question because im NOT a rapist.
...Wow,
lol
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
EDIT: fortunatly...lol...
killin innocent ppl ??? u kill them... then u die...then allah punishes u..then u go to hell..then what?

Then he burns OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER X [infinite]

have fun
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
HOLY! i said UNFORTUNATLY? omg. AZTAGHFURRULLAH
and jazakallah for telling me

whoa...

EDIT: Wait a sec. it makes sence, i cant answer his question because im NOT a rapist.
...Wow,
lol
hmm.. i guess both work..sorta.. Fortunatly im not a rapist so i unfortunatly cant answer ur question... thats sounds too wierd lol
Reply

جوري
01-24-2008, 09:53 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ng-gay-14.html
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Then he burns OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER X [infinite]

have fun
i kno but i meant then what will they benifit from killing innocent ppls?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Unfortunatly, I'm not a rapist, so i can't answer that question. In MY opinion though i think it's a spontanous decision, but a decision nontheless. Therefore he deserves punishment, how sever? that depends on the victim's state.

Hope it helps
Peace
I thought Islam perscribed the death penalty for apostates, blasphemers, publically practicing homosexuals, and there are some verses that are very unkind towards polytheists...

My opinion is that most people who commit crimes such as murder or rape are not capable of making rational judgements and decisions at the time of the action. Hence I don't think they should be held responsible for their mistakes. Yeah, thy should e locked up, tehy've proven to be unstable dangerosus for teh society, but they should not be killed.

As I said before, I do support the death penalty in cases of people who do wrong consciously and gain financial or other benefits, eg serial killers, politicans who get rid of their opponents...
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
HOLY! i said UNFORTUNATLY? omg. AZTAGHFURRULLAH
and jazakallah for telling me

whoa...

EDIT: Wait a sec. it makes sence, i cant answer his question because im NOT a rapist.
...Wow,
lol
I too thought you were just being funny.:D
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I thought Islam perscribed the death penalty for apostates, blasphemers, publically practicing homosexuals, and there are some verses that are very unkind towards polytheists...

My opinion is that most people who commit crimes such as murder or rape are not capable of making rational judgements and decisions at the time of the action. Hence I don't think they should be held responsible for their mistakes. Yeah, thy should e locked up, tehy've proven to be unstable dangerosus for teh society, but they should not be killed.

As I said before, I do support the death penalty in cases of people who do wrong consciously and gain financial or other benefits, eg serial killers, politicans who get rid of their opponents...
If they aren't capable of making "rational judgements" then they should seek professional help. And anyway, what kind of a sick reason does one need to make a decision to ruin somone's life? [rape]

They are held responsible, and if they are locked up, then they should not be allowed back in. Because there is nothign stopping them from "accidently" making the wrong rational Judgment, is there?

on the last part, about the politicians and serial killers and people who fall under that category, the same thing applies.

Omari
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
If they aren't capable of making "rational judgements" then they should seek professional help. And anyway, what kind of a sick reason does one need to make a decision to ruin somone's life? [rape]

They are held responsible, and if they are locked up, then they should not be allowed back in. Because there is nothign stopping them from "accidently" making the wrong rational Judgment, is there?
I don't think paedophiles will seek professional help. Neither will all of the potential rapists and murderers. Most people comit a crime due to a sever and a sudden traumatic event, there's no time to seek help.
Criminals should be taken in and treated, socialized etc. Later, if a team of psychiatrist should conclude they've been cured/rehabilitated I think they should be let out..
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 10:11 PM
^^ or they can switch there brain with someone who a bigger size brain..
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I don't think paedophiles will seek professional help. Neither will all of the potential rapists and murderers. Most people comit a crime due to a sever and a sudden traumatic event, there's no time to seek help.
Criminals should be taken in and treated, socialized etc. Later, if a team of psychiatrist should conclude they've been cured/rehabilitated I think they should be let out..
I guess that's your opinion. But honestly, if they get back to the right state of mind, I think even they would want to die. Imagine you are living next door to a pedophile, I would like to see the way you act towards him, and I'd like to see how many times you would let your kid(s) outside.

Ofcourse, i know you know what im pointing at, so im not gona explain.
Reply

جوري
01-24-2008, 10:14 PM
You can't socialize criminals are you kidding me? there is no rehabilitation, some simply won't be rehabilitated.. try to understand that not everyone can be inherently good. There is wickedness and evil in the world...

I don't know if you believe or think psychiatrists are miracle workers? but if you do consider this, only 5&#37; of those seeking rehabilitation from drugs through the help of psychiatrists using govt. fundings are successfully rehabilitated...

life isn't this utopia that the faint hearted imagine it to be!

cheers
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
^^ or they can switch there brain with someone who a bigger size brain.. nah im kiddin... but yah thats true

HUH? your giving in!? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...My only BACKUP :offended:imsad

but yah thats true
Not neccesarily, I hope you understood what he's implementing.
He is saying exactly what he has been saying the whole time, him and WILBER :|. And you have been argueing against, and now your giving in!

EDIT IT! EDIT IT!

lol

omari
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 10:15 PM
Never mind, purest amborsia has my back now!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
I guess that's your opinion. But honestly, if they get back to the right state of mind, I think even they would want to die. Imagine you are living next door to a pedophile, I would like to see the way you act towards him, and I'd like to see how many times you would let your kid(s) outside.

Ofcourse, i know you know what im pointing at, so im not gona explain.
They would be free to kill themselves...

You can't treat a paedophile, at least not their sexual tendencies...but you can chemically reduce their lust (or even chemically castrate them), which I think is a common practice in some palces. In France, they will keep them jailed for life, I think.
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
HUH? your giving in!? AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...My only BACKUP :offended:imsad



Not neccesarily, I hope you understood what he's implementing.
He is saying exactly what he has been saying the whole time, him and WILBER :|. And you have been argueing against, and now your giving in!

EDIT IT! EDIT IT!

lol

omari
ok ok fine i wasnt even serious.. except bout the brain part.. sometimes ppl post things to see what the other person would say...like me earlier..lol... anyway sometime i actually start thinking wilberhum and whatdapoint is the same person..lol.. i actually got mistaken one time in another thread.lol

whatsthepoint: :nervous::nervous::nervous:

lol
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
ok ok fine i wasnt even serious.. except bout the brain part.. sometimes ppl post things to see what the other person would say...like me earlier..lol... anyway sometime i actually start thinking wilberhum and whatdapoint is the same person..lol.. i actually got mistaken one time in another thread.lol

whatsthepoint: :nervous::nervous::nervous:

lol
LOL, yes they are very wise people, both of them. And it's almost a pleasure debating with them. Almost. Inshalah, he/they will see the light and come on our side. Joly fun that would be. :D

Inshalah...

Omari
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-24-2008, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You can't socialize criminals are you kidding me? there is no rehabilitation, some simply won't be rehabilitated.. try to understand that not everyone can be inherently good. There is wickedness and evil in the world...

I don't know if you believe or think psychiatrists are miracle workers? but if you do consider this, only 5% of those seeking rehabilitation from drugs through the help of psychiatrists using govt. fundings are successfully rehabilitated...

life isn't this utopia that the faint hearted imagine it to be!

cheers
I am aware not all people can be rehabilitated. But taht's why there's life in prison.
I wouldn't compare criminals(apart from paedophiles) to drug addicts though.

I would like to see the stats about prisoners who after being released an rehabilitated comit new crimes.
Reply

Mikayeel
01-24-2008, 10:26 PM
Whoever thinks that All&#226;h will not help him (Muhammad SAW) in this world and in the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and let him strangle himself. Then let him see whether his plan will remove that whereat he rages! (15) Surah Al Hajj!, a very strong verse that challanges mankind...... u strong enough to take the challange???
Reply

truemuslim
01-24-2008, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
LOL, yes they are very wise people, both of them. And it's almost a pleasure debating with them. Almost. Inshalah, he/they will see the light and come on our side. Joly fun that would be. :D

Inshalah...

Omari
lol.. i gotta go now..so i dunt got ur back..sorry bye pops is home...btw they isnt wise... whats the point is kinda wise..but wilberhum just says nonsense!!
Reply

Omari
01-24-2008, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by truemuslim
lol.. i gotta go now..so i dunt got ur back..sorry bye pops is home...btw they isnt wise... whats the point is kinda wise..but wilberhum just says nonsense!!

lol, I know and read, you and wilber bang heads somtimes. And its often amusing to read, you with your simple yet strong arguements, him with his advanced and strong arguements...

lol.

by wise i meant, full of facts, mature, and ...err...experienced?
Reply

جوري
01-24-2008, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I am aware not all people can be rehabilitated. But taht's why there's life in prison.
this isn't something that can be subjected to our own immanent views of what it is, or what it ought to be. I think this is highly variable on of the criminal, the nature of the crime and the victim's family. Under Islamic jurisprudence, a person who is mentally unfit is exempt from such trials and indeed should be rehabilitated. It is up to a medical committee and a person learned in the law to decide the nature of such affairs, not emotional people on a forum, who for some forsaken reason seem to identify more with the criminals than the victims (frankly that alone leaves me wondering as to their life style choices)...

I wouldn't compare criminals(apart from paedophiles) to drug addicts though.
there are gradations of criminality, just like there are gradations of mental illness, just like there are gradations of what punishment should be implemented for a particular crime!

I would like to see the stats about prisoners who after being released an rehabilitated comit new crimes.
That is a request you'd most likely have to direct to your local council man or woman, that is if it is made for public view. I doubt very much they run such studies, as most criminals save for pedophiles don't have to register themselves in the community where they are released.
This area of the law is outside my sphere of expertise or even that of a random google search!

peace
Reply

truemuslim
01-25-2008, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by Omari
lol, I know and read, you and wilber bang heads somtimes. And its often amusing to read, you with your simple yet strong arguements, him with his advanced and strong arguements...

lol.

by wise i meant, full of facts, mature, and ...err...experienced?
nah i call my side defending... he probably just copy and pastes lies from google... sorry i is gosipping now... :offended:

p.s. of course he is expierenced he is 62! lol

another p.s. ... its not amusing... at all.. ..it more...annoying..for me..for u i guess u do find it amusing
Reply

Omari
01-25-2008, 06:03 PM
It is amusing. Sometimes they get so mad that they stop posting :| and we think we won lol...

Phew...i think this thread is about to get closed.
LAST POSTER WINS :|
Reply

truemuslim
01-25-2008, 06:23 PM
...yep...i give. up...no more serious threads from me...my other one got closed...to much fighting,....if i cant post anything serious here than i mite as well not post at all...and im glad u find it amusin..:(

p.s. i dont think im fully awake yet...its only 1:26 tho bt i wsa lookin at my reps...somehting wiiierddd by someone wwiiierrdd was there.....im gonna go back to sleep..no classes fo me today..
Reply

Z-Blade
01-26-2008, 03:22 AM
:salamext:,

Most people who are against the death penalty either a) do not believe in the afterlife or b) do not understand it. Otherwise, there is no reason to be against it.

Wassalam.
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truemuslim
01-26-2008, 05:35 AM
^^^ yep thats true
Reply

AabiruSabeel
01-26-2008, 06:19 AM
:sl:

Whatever Allah SubHanhu wa Ta'ala has ordered with His Hikmat (wisdom) is the most appropriate for His creations. We with our limited intelligence, imagination and whatever cannot fully comprehend the Hikmat that lies behind capital punishment...


:w:
Reply

wilberhum
01-26-2008, 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by Z-Blade
:salamext:,

Most people who are against the death penalty either a) do not believe in the afterlife or b) do not understand it. Otherwise, there is no reason to be against it.

Wassalam.
Da, If I thought there was a hell I would be happy to send them on there way.

Your just another case of minimum understanding.

You see everything as black or white and fail to see the 98 shades of gray.
Reply

Yerpon
01-26-2008, 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
My opinion is that most people who commit crimes such as murder or rape are not capable of making rational judgements and decisions at the time of the action.
I agree.

When criminals see other people having death penalty or other penalties, they will be less likely to commit crimes. The crime rates will come down.

Otherwise, the crime rates will go up. Then, more people will be killed by criminals.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by Yerpon
I agree.

When criminals see other people having death penalty or other penalties, they will be less likely to commit crimes. The crime rates will come down.

Otherwise, the crime rates will go up. Then, more people will be killed by criminals.
Not necessarily. I don't think the death penalty as we know it today is too much of a crime deterrant.
Reply

Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 12:44 PM
I believe everyone who disagree's with the islamic death penalty is just plain ignorant! For a very good reason, most people here who say the death penalty will not work etc... etc... have never ever seen the death penalty being applied correctly or being applied at all! So they come to a conclusion which they feel is right... how can you judge on judging which you have never seen working in a proper way?(thats ignorance wouldnt you agree?)
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
I believe everyone who disagree's with the islamic death penalty is just plain ignorant! For a very good reason, most people here who say the death penalty will not work etc... etc... have never ever seen the death penalty being applied correctly or being applied at all! So they come to a conclusion which they feel is right... how can you judge on judging which you have never seen working in a proper way?(thats ignorance wouldnt you agree?)
I am aware that public execution/linching must be a better crime deterrant than a gas cell in the basement of a highly guarded state prison, but that doesn't make it right or good.
Reply

Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I am aware that public execution/linching must be a better crime deterrant than a gas cell in the basement of a highly guarded state prison, but that doesn't make it right or good.
agian you are proving that my point is right.... U think its not right or good, have you ever lived in a country where the islamic rules where applied correctly?? Have u ever been in that kind of society? Unless you have you cant really answer that question. Rather your giving me opinions... which are for your concern wrong.. Because i have seen both societies!
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
agian you are proving that my point is right.... U think its not right or good, have you ever lived in a country where the islamic rules where applied correctly?? Have u ever been in that kind of society? Unless you have you cant really answer that question. Rather your giving me opinions... which are for your concern wrong.. Because i have seen both societies!
You have an islamic bias, you look at everything from an Islamic perspective, you feel Islam is superior. I have a democratic/liberal bias, hence I believe our society is superior to yours. I don't have to live in an islamic society to know that. (anyways, I am told that there is not a single proper islamic society nowadays).
By my subective right/wrong standards death penalty is wrong and public executions are even wronger. I don't think we should go against our democratic and human rights standards in order to benefit from executions.
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Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You have an islamic bias, you look at everything from an Islamic perspective, you feel Islam is superior. I have a democratic/liberal bias, hence I believe our society is superior to yours. I don't have to live in an islamic society to know that. (anyways, I am told that there is not a single proper islamic society nowadays).
By my subective right/wrong standards death penalty is wrong and public executions are even wronger. I don't think we should go against our democratic and human rights standards in order to benefit from executions.
Yes thats right islam is superior, it has answers to all my problems... and all the answers are correct. That is what you think and like i said its been proven wrong! The lack of a death penalty is showing an increase in crime... my example would be the UK because I live there, since it has been stopped the crime rates have increased.. how would your democratic/liberal bias explain that?
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Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
Yes thats right islam is superior, it has answers to all my problems... and all the answers are correct. That is what you think and like i said its been proven wrong! The lack of a death penalty is showing an increase in crime... my example would be the UK because I live there, since it has been stopped the crime rates have increased.. how would your democratic/liberal bias explain that?
The answers may be correct, however nobody has managed to prove such claims, so I'll continue to see them as a product of muslim bias.
what has been proven wrong?
I'd say that the socioeconimic conditions on the British Isles have been worsening for decades so the crime rates would have risen without the death penalty being abolished.
Take a look at some other European countries, such as Switzerland or Denamark which have also abolished the death penalty yet they haven't witnessed an increase in crime.
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wilberhum
01-26-2008, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
I believe everyone who disagree's with the islamic death penalty is just plain ignorant! For a very good reason, most people here who say the death penalty will not work etc... etc... have never ever seen the death penalty being applied correctly or being applied at all! So they come to a conclusion which they feel is right... how can you judge on judging which you have never seen working in a proper way?(thats ignorance wouldnt you agree?)
I believe everyone who disagrees with me is just plain ignorant! For a very good reason, I'm perfect. :skeleton:
To me it is as ignorant as you can get to think you have a perfect solution. :?
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chacha_jalebi
01-26-2008, 08:01 PM
i did say cough cough before . . .

il say it again cough cough:p

keep the debates civil, respect each other, otherwise . . . :shade:
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 09:13 PM
GAH!
guys I did a lot of research on WhatsThePoints question...

Rapists who aren't married only get punished with beating or jail...they don't get capital punishment...
[This is because they probably could not control themselves]
Rapists who ARE married and rape...kill them. str8 up.
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Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
GAH!
guys I did a lot of research on WhatsThePoints question...

Rapists who aren't married only get punished with beating or jail...they don't get capital punishment...
[This is because they probably could not control themselves]
Rapists who ARE married and rape...kill them. str8 up.
Thanks for trying.:peace:

I think things are more complicated than that though. Unmarried men may often get more erm pleasure than married ones. And there are pelnty of disfunctional marriages, where not only does a man get little or no pleasure whatsoever but is also distressed, hurt.. which can lead to rape..

I think the marital status of the defendant should hold no or very little significance.
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جوري
01-26-2008, 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I am aware that public execution/linching must be a better crime deterrant than a gas cell in the basement of a highly guarded state prison, but that doesn't make it right or good.
I don't know about lynching that isn't jurispridence, but a public execution as in fact as it should be.
No one should take pleasure in someone's death, whether the perpetrator, victim's family or the executioner that isn't what it is about. Again, this is more of a 'maw3itha'
مَوْعِظَة اســــــــــــم عِظَة
preachment , adage , sermon , lesson

about justice, because that is what death is, not necessairly a deterrant but an expiation of sin that has been committed.. that is one
2-payment for crime committed
3-may or may not be a deterrent but the image should live in people's memories, for those who might take heed...

whether or not Islam is my religion, I am a strong advocate for highest possible sentence to fit each crime. That is how I work in my everyday in life.. that is how you work when you are sick, honestly think about it.. you don't think of the bacteria or virus or cancer in your body as living in symbiosis with you? you think of them as an enemy and want to annihilate them.. pls do be honest with yourself.. when you are sick do you not want to get well? I mean could be some folks like illness because they leach of society, malingerer to gain, sympathy or whatever else, but they still suffer with their illness especially if self-imposed.. but most sane people take their antibiotics, their anti-virals and antineoplastics etc etc, in hopes of conquering the misfits/criminals that have taken over their body.. society is a body and can't afford criminals in its midst.. you can't say well, I'll reform this virus, the minute you lag, you lose...
think about it, outside whether or not one thinks so because of a religion. Perhaps they have chosen this religion because it makes most sense..

peace
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 09:47 PM
No Problem:peace:
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

I think the marital status of the defendant should hold no or very little significance.
I think we should look at countries with above average populations.
[Developing countries]
In most cultures in developing countries rape is strongly forbidden, and the usual solution to this crime [more practiced in India] is getting the "defendant" MARRIED to the victim.

And there are pelnty of disfunctional marriages
Divorce often works for such marriages. If, as you said, the man gets little or no pleasure, then he should get another wife, and if the second wife still doesn't satisfy him, he can get a third one, and if he is STILL not satisfied a fourth one is also permitted.
Islam leaves NO reason what-so-ever for such a practice. For Allah is perfect, and his religion aswel.

Hope it helps. If not, "[IMG]Itried.JPG[IMG] :peace:

Peace
Omari
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
, honestly think about it.. you don't think of the bacteria or virus or cancer in your body as living in symbiosis with you? you think of them as an enemy and want to annihilate them.. pls do be honest with yourself.. when you are sick do you not want to get well? I mean could be some folks like illness because they leach of society, malingerer to gain, sympathy or whatever else, but they still suffer with their illness especially if self-imposed.. but most sane people take their antibiotics, their anti-virals and antineoplastics etc etc, in hopes of conquering the misfits/criminals that have taken over their body.. society is a body and can't afford criminals in its midst.. you can't say well, I'll reform this virus, the minute you lag, you lose...
think about it, outside whether or not one thinks so because of a religion. Perhaps they have chosen this religion because it makes most sense..

peace
I thought about it, though it's slightly unrelative it makes almost perfect sence. Probably the best possible example.
Jazakallahu khair for sharing
Omari
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Divorce often works for such marriages. If, as you said, the man gets little or no pleasure, then he should get another wife, and if the second wife still doesn't satisfy him, he can get a third one, and if he is STILL not satisfied a fourth one is also permitted.
Islam leaves NO reason what-so-ever for such a practice. For Allah is perfect, and his religion aswel.

Peace
Omari
A divorce is a big step, not all people who should divorce actually do so.
Do you thing an average rapist is wealthy enough to afford more than 1 wife? Most of them are depressed, unemployed etc.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
whether or not Islam is my religion, I am a strong advocate for highest possible sentence to fit each crime. That is how I work in my everyday in life.. that is how you work when you are sick, honestly think about it.. you don't think of the bacteria or virus or cancer in your body as living in symbiosis with you? you think of them as an enemy and want to annihilate them.. pls do be honest with yourself.. when you are sick do you not want to get well? I mean could be some folks like illness because they leach of society, malingerer to gain, sympathy or whatever else, but they still suffer with their illness especially if self-imposed.. but most sane people take their antibiotics, their anti-virals and antineoplastics etc etc, in hopes of conquering the misfits/criminals that have taken over their body.. society is a body and can't afford criminals in its midst.. you can't say well, I'll reform this virus, the minute you lag, you lose...
think about it, outside whether or not one thinks so because of a religion. Perhaps they have chosen this religion because it makes most sense..

peace
I agree, a society cannot afford having criminals and dangerous people freely walking down the street. But I don't think such elements should be executed, let alone publically. I have stated my positions and reasons for them throughout this thread, there's no point in repeating them.
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A divorce is a big step, not all people who should divorce actually do so.
Do you thing an average rapist is wealthy enough to afford more than 1 wife? Most of them are depressed, unemployed etc.
Aw common. Not everyone gets married in a 5-star hotel!

and if you mean to say that they can't afford the food and clothing...then they should consider their "pleasure-less" life and find ways to make it full of pleasure...I don't want to talk about ways to please yourself with your life partner, I'm sure your not that dull [if at all].

Choosing your life-partner is a big step. So take it carefully. There is, in my opinion, a solution to all the problems that may lead the rapist to take the sick step.

Peace
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Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Aw common. Not everyone gets married in a 5-star hotel!

and if you mean to say that they can't afford the food and clothing...then they should consider their "pleasure-less" life and find ways to make it full of pleasure...I don't want to talk about ways to please yourself with your life partner, I'm sure your not that dull [if at all].

Choosing your life-partner is a big step. So take it carefully. There is, in my opinion, a solution to all the problems that may lead the rapist to take the sick step.

Peace
I said most rapists are uneducated, low-payed, perhaps even unemployed. I don't think many of them can make ends meet on their own, let alone with 3 wives.
If married rapists knew the way how to pleasure themselves within marriage they would rape, would they?
I agree, but the world is not perfect...
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If married rapists knew the way how to pleasure themselves within marriage they would rape, would they?
Care to edit?.I found it confusing at first. Thanks :)
I agree, but the world is not perfect...
Maybe not, but do you disagree that the world has the potential to be very close to it?
How many people who rape will tell a BS story about how they are, "Uneducated, Unemployed, Full of stress, NO PLEASURE" ANYTHING to save them from the possible punishment. I think Half of it is Bull. You just can't ruin the life of another person and get away with it with a room, 3 square meals, a tv, and other things.
You never know, maybe some "poor" people are raping just to get that. Who knows??

The point still stands as it did when the thread started:
If the survival of a crop and by extension the survival of a family is at risk.
Eradicate the pest.

Peace
Omari
Reply

جوري
01-26-2008, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I agree, a society cannot afford having criminals and dangerous people freely walking down the street. But I don't think such elements should be executed, let alone publically. I have stated my positions and reasons for them throughout this thread, there's no point in repeating them.
Your reasonings are a bit odd to me since they mostly fall on conjectural, but I agree, no point in repeating...

peace
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
Maybe not, but do you disagree that the world has the potential to be very close to it?
How many people who rape will tell a BS story about how they are, "Uneducated, Unemployed, Full of stress, NO PLEASURE" ANYTHING to save them from the possible punishment. I think Half of it is Bull. You just can't ruin the life of another person and get away with it with a room, 3 square meals, a tv, and other things.
You never know, maybe some "poor" people are raping just to get that. Who knows??

The point still stands as it did when the thread started:
If the survival of a crop and by extension the survival of a family is at risk.
Eradicate the pest.

Peace
Omari
A typo.
...they wouldn't rape, would they...

Humans are not crops, that's all I have to say...
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
A typo.
...they wouldn't rape, would they...

Humans are not crops, that's all I have to say...
Oh you have got to be kidding me...my little brother who is 2 will see the relevance.

Peace
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Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Your reasonings are a bit odd to me since they mostly fall on conjectural, but I agree, no point in repeating...

peace
Well, there are so many crime statistics out there that most crime reasonings fall on conjectural...
Anyway, throughout this topic I have stated my opinions on the subejct, I have never claimed they're indisputable, perfect...
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 10:39 PM
IS a pest's life more valuable then the survival of a family?

I am comparing the pest to the rapist/ killer.
The family to society.

In order to maintain a safe society. the criminals must be brought to justice. And eradicating the society from the PEST is to eliminate all thoughts the criminal may have about "getting away with it".
Reply

Omari
01-26-2008, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Well, there are so many crime statistics out there that most crime reasonings fall on conjectural...
Anyway, throughout this topic I have stated my opinions on the subejct, I have never claimed they're indisputable, perfect...
[QUOTE] Snakelegs' signiature quote [Quote]
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Omari
IS a pest's life more valuable then the survival of a family?

I am comparing the pest to the rapist/ killer.
The family to society.
I kinda figured that out by myself...

In order to maintain a safe society. the criminals must be brought to justice. And eradicating the society from the PEST is to eliminate all thoughts the criminal may have about "getting away with it".
You can isolate pest, or genetically modify them not to harm crops.
The death penalty is not much of a crime deterrant, perhaps in KSA and Bahrain but I think there are other reasons to their low crime rates...
And I wouldn't support it even if it did effectievly detter crime.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 10:47 PM
[QUOTE=Omari;904463][QUOTE] Snakelegs' signiature quote
Goes for everyone, ya know?
Reply

InToTheRain
01-26-2008, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
And I wouldn't support it even if it did effectievly detter crime.
I don't think creating a Hub were rapists and murdereres get to meet up, get fed and live using the hard earned money of every tax payer including the Victims is a solution.

The only way to get Justice as it seems is to have some of these guys around, Hail to all Vigilantes!

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snakelegs
01-26-2008, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I said most rapists are uneducated, low-payed, perhaps even unemployed. I don't think many of them can make ends meet on their own
what makes you think rape is a class thing? you don't think rich people rape, that educated people rape?
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Whatsthepoint
01-26-2008, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
what makes you think rape is a class thing? you don't think rich people rape, that educated people rape?
I am sure that the rich/educated comit much less crimes then the poor/uneducated.
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Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 11:19 PM
I would also like to note, that people who say that alot of people have been killed (innocent people) due to the death penalty, (mostly happened in the USA)

If people gave up due to failure we wouldn't have flight today.

With todays technology such mistakes can be avoided. With eye-witnesses, DNA, and confessions the death penalty can be carried out with 100&#37; accuracy.

That's a point to those who keep saying, no we keep killing innocent people.
Reply

wilberhum
01-26-2008, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
I would also like to note, that people who say that alot of people have been killed (innocent people) due to the death penalty, (mostly happened in the USA)

If people gave up due to failure we wouldn't have flight today.

With todays technology such mistakes can be avoided. With eye-witnesses, DNA, and confessions the death penalty can be carried out with 100% accuracy.

That's a point to those who keep saying, no we keep killing innocent people.
When humans are involved there is never 100% accuracy.
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Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
When humans are involved there is never 100% accuracy.
Maybe back in the 60's

So you are saying that if 4 witnesses sweared by that they have witnessed the crime.. Above that all today's technology proves positive! (and for the sake of argument lets say the offender admitted his crime) would then in that case the death penalty serve him right?
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Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 11:35 PM
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5&#37; were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.

Does this here not say enough??
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wilberhum
01-26-2008, 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
Maybe back in the 60's

So you are saying that if 4 witnesses sweared by that they have witnessed the crime.. Above that all today's technology proves positive! (and for the sake of argument lets say the offender admitted his crime) would then in that case the death penalty serve him right?
It seems that you have little knowledge of evidence and even less about humanity.
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Mikayeel
01-26-2008, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It seems that you have little knowledge of evidence and even less about humanity.
So all that in your eyes is not enough evidence?

Can you explain my own lack of humanity to my self please??
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wilberhum
01-26-2008, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
So all that in your eyes is not enough evidence?

Can you explain my own lack of humanity to my self please??
Not "lack of humanity". I in no way meant that. I meant and said knowledge about humanity. A lot of difference.

Witness are often wrong.
The technology is ran by humans and humans make mistakes.

In fact it may surprise you but some people lie.
Reply

snakelegs
01-27-2008, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I am sure that the rich/educated comit much less crimes then the poor/uneducated.
i think rape knows no class. but the rich/educated rarely land in jail or in the court system.
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Mikayeel
01-27-2008, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Not "lack of humanity". I in no way meant that. I meant and said knowledge about humanity. A lot of difference.

Witness are often wrong.
The technology is ran by humans and humans make mistakes.

In fact it may surprise you but some people lie.
Oke, u seem to take extra precautions to evidences.. (thats why I stated that the murderer even agreed that he killed for sake of argument) To see if you then agreed that he should be killed.

Anyhow, to not spent to much time on this, if the evidence is not 100% then a death penalty should not be allowed! (even if it is 99.9%), and if four people swear by their right hand on the quran that hey have witnessed the murder then that is a GREAT thing (all muslims will agree with that, hardly any muslim would actuall swear with his right hand on the quran while he is uttering a lie)
Reply

wilberhum
01-27-2008, 12:22 AM
if the evidence is not 100&#37; then a death penalty should not be allowed!
That's my point, the evidence is never 100%.
If it could be, I would totally be pro Death penalty.
But it ain't and I ain't.
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Mikayeel
01-27-2008, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
That's my point, the evidence is never 100%.
If it could be, I would totally be pro Death penalty.
But it ain't and I ain't.
Oke thank god we came to an agreement:), concerning the evidence leave that to the CSI! :)

peace
Reply

Z-Blade
01-27-2008, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Da, If I thought there was a hell I would be happy to send them on there way.

Your just another case of minimum understanding.

You see everything as black or white and fail to see the 98 shades of gray.
Not really dude ^^. The two categories I stated for those AGAINST the death penalty covers everything, including the 98 shades of gray :'). Since anyone who believes and understands the after life (with belief obviously being the first condition) will know that every matter will be corrected and put to justice by God. So, if we make the very serious mistake of killing an innocent, he will get his reward in the afterlife and the wrong will be righted.

3:161
وَمَا كَانَ لِنَبِيٍّ أَن يَغُلَّ وَمَن يَغْلُلْ يَأْتِ بِمَا غَلَّ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ تُوَفَّى كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَّا كَسَبَتْ وَهُمْ لاَ يُظْلَمُونَ
It is not for any Prophet to take illegally a part of booty (Ghulul), and whosoever deceives his companions as regards the booty, he shall bring forth on the Day of Resurrection that which he took (illegally). Then every person shall be paid in full what he has earned, - and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

But you should know in the Islam no one is put through the death penalty if there is the SLIGHTEST doubt. Any country/place that decides to implement the death penality should do the same thing, and inshaAllah everything will be fine.
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Z-Blade
01-27-2008, 02:43 AM
^Bah "in the Islam" there just looks silly, I meant in Islam of course :'). Can't edit :(

:salamext:,

Originally Posted by truemuslim
^^^ yep thats true
Alhamdulillah, we are all in agreement. :D

Wassalam.
Reply

truemuslim
01-27-2008, 05:26 AM
^^^ LOOL...at least no one here is fighting nomore... congratulations hamada this thread stays open...for prolly a day or two...lol
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-27-2008, 12:35 PM
Snakelegs posed an interesting question in this thread that I don't think anyone replied.

What should happen if DNA evidence or something equally scientific contradicted the testimonies of 4 male witnesses?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
01-27-2008, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.

Does this here not say enough??
The state should me more careful in releasing prisoners.:)
Reply

crayon
01-27-2008, 12:47 PM
Just to add to the discussion, a little fact that's been overlooked:

Rape is not about sex, it's about power and control. So it doesn't matter whether the person is being satisfied in marriage or not, a rapist will continue to rape to feel powerful. Rape is similar to pedophilia in that aspect, it being more about control than the actual action.
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