Missionaries: Noble and Loving or Arrogant and Intollerant?

[Pygoscelis]

Short of answering the door nude or screaming obscenities at them how do you get rid of missionaries?

There has been an upsurge in door to door missionaries (mostly jehovas witnesses) here lately and it has got me thinking. These people at noble and loving but arrogant and intollerant at the same time. It is quite the conflicted state.

They are noble and loving in that they see us "unsaved" bound for an eternal hell and take time out of their day and make efforts to "save" us. If I believed people were dooming themselves to eternal torture I'd probably do the same. And I actually wonder about the more 'tolerant' believers who don't try to save sinners' souls. Do they not believe their own holy text? Do they simply not care about us who are ****ing ourselves? The missionaries from this perspective are loving and noble and to be commended.

But then at the same time missiories are arrogant and intollerant. Missionaries completely disregard the religions and beliefs and worldviews of their targets. They prey on young, poor and and desperate people, vulnerable minds, to spread their own religious views. They try to force their views into public policy forcing all of us to fall in line with their ways of thinking. From this perspective they are arrogant and intolerant.

So when talking to them I often feel an inner conflict. On the one hand I want to slap them and scream at them for being such jerks in the way they prey on the vulnerable (often taking their money as tithes too) but on the other hand I don't want to thank them for caring enough to try to "save" people (even though its all in their own heads).

Thoughts?

[Amadeus85]

The only missionaries that I sometimes meet are Jeahova Witnesses. They are bit weird but I try to be nice to them :).

[syed saboor]

Missionaries, in general, are a pestilence on the Islamic world and Muslims period. They are troublemakers who try to corrupt Muslims and intice them with false promises. Its not just the missionaries here in the United States, but all these Western missionaries who go overseas to Islamic countries, and harass Muslims.

One example rings a bell, and that is the example of Dana Curry and Heather Mercer, who went to Afghanistan to preach Christianity to Afghanis. Both women were first-rate liars, who claimed the Taliban were viscious people. In fact, its just no coincidence that most of the missionaries sent abroad, work in tandem with the American government. I've met one missionary, who went to Pakistan, and he was a big -------!

Muslims, beware of your enemies.

[snakelegs]

i regard them in the same category as salesmen. i just say, "i'm not interested" and close the door.
during one phase when they were hyper-active, i put a sign on my door that said:

"missionaries, salesmen and politicians:

Go Away!!!!

thankyou!"

it worked on about 95% of them.
i see no reason to tolerate them.

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[InToTheRain]

i see no reason to tolerate them.

:ooh:... so how did you deal with the other 5%... :nervous:

I get them around here also, in fact I enjoy talking to em sometimes :ooh:
I kinda feel sorry for em, going around voluntarily, having the door shut on em, people making joke of em, having Snakeleg shoot et em... lifes a pain :(

So when they see me with me broad smile like so :D I am sure they appreciate it and I take my opportunity to give some Dawah. we'd exchange the usual greetings, salutations, intro blah blah and JUST as they reach to give me that Pamphlet they have I'd tell em in a prompt manner "I believe in the one true God and I believe Jesus was the massenger of God, We believe in his Miraculious birth, His mother Mariam was among the greatest Woman to ever exist and the Birth was Miraculious as she was a chaste woman, We believe that Jesus performed many miracles through the help of God, We believe he is a Messiah therefore believe he will return..(or something to that affect and so on)"... infact I realise I'm doing most the talking some ten minutes down the line.

They don't come around these days ^o) :(

[snakelegs]

i pointed to the sign, said "didn't you see this?" and closed the door.
as a non-christian in the u.s., christians have tried to convert me since i was a child. i don't like missionaries and the idea of knocking on somebody's door to push your religion at them strikes me as arrogant, rude and intrusive.
i'm not nasty to them, but i also don't let them take my time.
i don't feel sorry for them.
if i was interested in christianity, i don't think i'd have much trouble finding a church, without needing someone to knock on my door.

[The_Prince]

you wanna get rid of them? well just go along, and say you already know the message.

i had a missionary come up to me in the street once, they were called Jesus army, they were handing flyers out etc, they had their own double decker bus. the guy came up to me with a pamphlet and he asked me do I know who Jesus is? and i smiled and said yes and took the pamphlet, and he left me alone.

dont argue, and smile and say yes, and they will walk away.

although technically i did answer his Q, he asked if i knew who Jesus is, and as a Muslim i believe i know him better than this missionary does! but he thought i meant yes in a Christian way offcourse.

either way, smile, say yes, take the paper, and your okay.

[InToTheRain]

i pointed to the sign, said "didn't you see this?" and closed the door.
as a non-christian in the u.s., christians have tried to convert me since i was a child. i don't like missionaries and the idea of knocking on somebody's door to push your religion at them strikes me as arrogant, rude and intrusive.
i'm not nasty to them, but i also don't let them take my time.
i don't feel sorry for them.
if i was interested in christianity, i don't think i'd have much trouble finding a church, without needing someone to knock on my door.

:ooh: I think your case is exceptional and that is a breach of privacy since the sign is there. They don't read your sign but they expect you to read the bible, tut tut...Some people just don't give up, even when they know you don't want it! I don't know how it is in the US either.

I remember a man who bought a Gun in order to threaten a sales man from calling on him. The dude just wouldn't give up trying to sell double glazed windows and was harrasing the man at continiuosly, so much so the man was losing sleep over it. The police of course wouldn't take it seriously, so he bought a Gun, called the sales over for a cuppa and discuss the quote much to his surprise :ooh: and when he got inside the Man took the sales man hostage with a Gun. Police was called, incident was reported and now the issue was known to be serious. End of

And they both lived happily ever after, Insha'Allah :ooh:

[snakelegs]

well, i only put up the sign because they were coming around several times a week for a while. lately, they rarely come around and i took down the sign years ago.
most seem polite enough, but then, i don't give them much of a chance. :D

[InToTheRain]

lately, they rarely come around and i took down the sign years ago.

Do I sense a sign of regret :ooh:....no need to be holding back snake, you can just spit it out and tell us you've started missing them :okay:

Just kidding :D ;D

[glo]

So when talking to them I often feel an inner conflict. On the one hand I want to slap them and scream at them for being such jerks in the way they prey on the vulnerable (often taking their money as tithes too) but on the other hand I don't want to thank them for caring enough to try to "save" people (even though its all in their own heads).

Thoughts?

I find heavy-handed evangelism not only unpleasant, but also ineffective.
Certainly being a member here at LI has given me an understanding of what it is like to be at the receiving end of evangelising/dawah ...

I doubt that I would ever make a street preacher or knock on people's doors - because pushing my own beliefs onto people who are not interested in hearing them is just not my thing.

However, I do understand and share the desire to 'share my faith' with other people, and I recognise and respect that in those of other religions.

Those Muslim brothers and sisters, who have PM'd me over the time I have been here to lead me to Islam, have done so out of good intentions, love and care for me. Although I didn't take them up on their offer, I do respect them for it in return. :thankyou:

I think the difference between sharing your faith to those who are interested and pushing your beliefs onto others become apparent in the differences between threads such as '100 reasons why the Qu'ran is not God's word' (I made that one up ...) and 'Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.' (This one is a real thread)

The first thread is likely to be aggressive and lead only to arguments and heated disagreements; the latter invites people to simple ask questions which will simply be answered.
The first thread is likely to be closed in a fairly short time; the latter has been running for over 18 months.

It shows me that sharing our faiths and beliefs with each other is first and foremost a good thing:

• People can make informed choices
• People can learn from each other
• People can understand and relate to each other better

But we have to learn to share our faiths and beliefs without being pushy or aggressive.
Christianity teaches that we can only invite people to accept Christ's message - and that they have free choice to do so, or not.

Peace

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I have no real problem with missionaries - now that I mention it, I've not got a problem with anyone (unless of course they're shouting verbal abuse or getting violent). But I personally think that their tactic is flawed - you should show a good impression of your religion by your actions not just Copy/pasted info on pamphlets and hand them out to everyone you meet. Don't get me wrong, pamphlets are helpful but not when they're shoved down your throat - if people truly want to learn about another religion they will actively look for the info. Some may need incentive which is where showing through actions comes in to play.

I understand why they do what they do and have some respect for them, however I do believe that the best way is to convince someone in events like these, is through actions

[Muezzin]

I like Jehova's Witnesses. I don't want to convert, but they seem like pretty nice, decent people - plus, they believe what they do strongly enough to go door to door, knowing full well they'll probably have it slammed in their face. Anyone willing to go through such humiliation in pursuit of their beliefs deserves some respect in my book.

Course, if you look at it the other way, they can be an annoyance and, philosphically, I can see how people can think they're being arrogant and intolerant of people with other faiths - the old 'convert or be punished' thing.

The ones I've met don't tend to send off these vibes, though. They seem pretty well-meaning and polite, and rather than disrespecting your religion, they tend to endorse their own. To me, that approach neutralises any possible arrogance and intollerance.

I only tend to have a problem with international missionaries of any faith if they make conversion a pre-condition of aid. On the other hand, if they provide aid impartially, and some people are won over to that faith because of the overwhelming kindness its followers have bestowed upon them - so be it.

As to the dilemma posed in the first post - I think leading by example is the best way to win people round to one's way of thinking or way of life. I'm not very good at 'evangelising', but if I were, I'd probably take the approach of showing everybody how good my tea set is, rather than making negative remarks about theirs.

[Keltoi]

Asking whether missionaries are "noble and loving or arrogant and intolerant" is sort of like asking if a cashier at Wal-mart is nice or mean...depends upon the missionary and what they're trying to achieve.

[Jayda]

Short of answering the door nude or screaming obscenities at them how do you get rid of missionaries?

There has been an upsurge in door to door missionaries (mostly jehovas witnesses) here lately and it has got me thinking. These people at noble and loving but arrogant and intollerant at the same time. It is quite the conflicted state.

They are noble and loving in that they see us "unsaved" bound for an eternal hell and take time out of their day and make efforts to "save" us. If I believed people were dooming themselves to eternal torture I'd probably do the same. And I actually wonder about the more 'tolerant' believers who don't try to save sinners' souls. Do they not believe their own holy text? Do they simply not care about us who are ****ing ourselves? The missionaries from this perspective are loving and noble and to be commended.

But then at the same time missiories are arrogant and intollerant. Missionaries completely disregard the religions and beliefs and worldviews of their targets. They prey on young, poor and and desperate people, vulnerable minds, to spread their own religious views. They try to force their views into public policy forcing all of us to fall in line with their ways of thinking. From this perspective they are arrogant and intolerant.

So when talking to them I often feel an inner conflict. On the one hand I want to slap them and scream at them for being such jerks in the way they prey on the vulnerable (often taking their money as tithes too) but on the other hand I don't want to thank them for caring enough to try to "save" people (even though its all in their own heads).

Thoughts?

hola,

there are different kinds of missionaries... i spent many years of my life as a missionary all over the world, mostly in africa and south america since i am fluent in french and spanish. i was a nurse, we helped with vaccinations and basic care for local people.

i think the door to door people are conscientious people who do not believe what i do. i do not see them where i live because our property is gated and it is not possible to get to the main residence without somebody noticing. in college i did get visited by a lot of different missionaries, particularly jehovas witness and mormons there were also indescript protestant denominations and muslims. they came to our dorm rooms to give us pamphlets and to talk to us, i felt a little harrassed by a boy who i think had a crush on me from an organization called 'LADO' and by the mormons who (while nice) i think began to take advantage of me since i always offered them sandwiches and tea...

there is literally nothing that will take me away from Christ or the Church and there is no argument that i have not heard or outreasoned. when confronted personally i try to patiently listen but politely indicate i am not interested in converting to anything, and that i do not wish to discuss my theological beliefs in this setting. on the internet sometimes i feel a little bullied and might respond but 9/10 times i will read proselytism or a negative comment and dismiss it out of hand.

i think the biggest missionaries i have faced were my atheist college professors, particularly one who attempted to start a relationship with me. i was known in classes and on campus as a very devout Catholic but i was kind of the darling of the biochem and molecular biophysics departments, and my professors thought that it was not right for me to believe in 'superstition' so they brought up the topic of religion many times when i went to speak with them... especially my advisor and that one professor i mentioned - he was a little different...

i considered him a friend, he was in his late 20s and we had a connection. he invited me to his home for dinner many times so we could talk about things and inevitably it always turned to religion. eventually i tried to convince him about Catholicism and invited him to come to Mass... that did not inspire anything in him but i think he misunderstood and thought that it brought us closer together in the way he wanted us to be. the last time i saw him was during the summer after i had finished his class, he invited me over to talk about a WHO internship i tried (but failed) to attain and the subject quickly turned to 'us' and he tried to kiss me. it was too awkward to see him after that...

but i have gone off on a tangent... i think from my experience it was the atheists who were the worst, they did not seem to have much regard for getting very personal, nor did they care what position they put me in as a student, nor did they ever accept that i would not be an atheist... they continued to push well after most civilized people would stop. i do not trust them very much on account of it...

que Dios te bendiga

[Pygoscelis]

There certainly are missionaries of all faiths, including "missionary atheists" (not sure the term is appropriate) who seek to bring everyone away from faith and to reason (as they see it).

I still remain conflicted though. I do see the conflict within missionary types. They really want to help me and are willing to make an arse of themselves to make the attempt. It shows they care... in a warped sort of way.

I actually wonder about the moderate religious people who claim they also believe us "unsaved" are going to be tortured forever and ever but don't seem to worry or care much about our suffering (as they see it). On the one hand I'm thankful they respect my views and aren't pains in the arse, but on the other hand I have to wonder if they really believe what they say they do or if they just don't care about us doomed folk.

[جوري]

and the answer is, they just don't care about you 'doomed folks'!

that being said missionaries are pests, especially the ones who use bribes..
and I have seen none use bribes except christians in under developed nations like they do in Africa, they go to schools and offer little children who if 'wealthy' pack their lunch in old heavy leaded news papers; with things like bikes.. (that is just sinking to an all time low).. on the other hand it is better than scientologists who ask you to dig deep to join them and then you end up a mysterious death in room 367.. hmm

[MartyrX]

I haven't spoken to a Jehovahs Witness in ages, but I'm not home during the day except on weekends so that might be why.

A long time before I became a Muslim I had a couple of them come to my door and proceeded to get into a debate with them. The one guy actually talked to me about all of my questions and was very friendly despite me trying to test him. The other guy never said a word either way. A few months later they came to the door again. The guy that didn't speak was the one in charge I'm assuming and he had another guy with him. As soon as he saw me he said he got the wrong door and left. I thought it was funny at the time.

Today if they would show up I wouldn't even engage in a discussion with them.

[Jayda]

There certainly are missionaries of all faiths, including "missionary atheists" (not sure the term is appropriate) who seek to bring everyone away from faith and to reason (as they see it).

I still remain conflicted though. I do see the conflict within missionary types. They really want to help me and are willing to make an arse of themselves to make the attempt. It shows they care... in a warped sort of way.

I actually wonder about the moderate religious people who claim they also believe us "unsaved" are going to be tortured forever and ever but don't seem to worry or care much about our suffering (as they see it). On the one hand I'm thankful they respect my views and aren't pains in the arse, but on the other hand I have to wonder if they really believe what they say they do or if they just don't care about us doomed folk.

hola,

i would not really use the word 'missionary' with any group outside of Christianity since it has a specific meaning... just like i would not equate our word martyr with the islamic concept of shaheed, as it is often done. still, i think proselytism is just as strong if not stronger with other ideologies including atheism. atheists like to tell themselves that their beliefs against the existance of God and their secular morals are all fundamental 'common ground' that we all can agree on.

how is that attitude any different than other religions? in a desire to make us further understand just how correct their beliefs are the atheists i have encountered try to corner people of faith into justifying their beliefs, but quickly the other perspective is lost since it does not go the way the atheist planned. then it is just like everything else, harassing conversations, baiting, argument from sheer ignorance, lack of listening, not allowing you to change the subject etc.

i think they are some of the worst offenders, but they try to couch the language of their activities in such a way that they can't be considered a proselytising ideology that has yet to establish it's own validity.

que Dios te bendiga

[Pygoscelis]

that being said missionaries are pests, especially the ones who use bribes..
and I have seen none use bribes except christians in under developed nations like they do in Africa

Is the promise of heaven not itself a bribe?

[جوري]

Is the promise of heaven not itself a bribe?

Can't promise anyone something you can't gurantee for yourself? thus I do worry about the sort of bribes missionaries hand out, bikes or otherwise!

In islam we never 'promise' anyone heaven.. each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds...

cheers

[Pygoscelis]

atheists like to tell themselves that their beliefs against the existance of God and their secular morals are all fundamental 'common ground' that we all can agree on.

Existence of God and the danger of religious dogmatism (which I'm sure you and I could have a whole other debate on) isn't something I'd expect an atheist and thesit to agree on.

But do we not all agree on secular morals? What do you mean by secular morals? I bet you and I share many moral values, which shows them to be secular in natureIf they were religious in nature I wouldn't share them with you.

how is that attitude any different than other religions? in a desire to make us further understand just how correct their beliefs are the atheists

You raise an interesting point. And I do think the two are comparable. From their own points of view both are engaging in a noble act and from the target's point of view they may be seen as arrogant and intolerant.

A religious zealot may see an atheist as rebelling against God and therefore bringing God's wrath down upon not only the atheist but the whole community at large. The atheist may be seen as a danger in that regard and it may be seen as vital to either convert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

An anti-religious person may see a religious person as brainwshed into a dangerous cult and therefore being susceptible to becoming a suicide bomber, witch hunter, crusader or child abuser (denying their children life saving blood transfusions, genital mutilation, etc). They may be seen as a danger and it may be seen as vital to either deconvert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

The line of thought does work from both points of view. Good observation.

[Pygoscelis]

I do worry about the sort of bribes missionaries hand out, bikes or otherwise!

You know, this may be the only thing you and I ever agree on.

I see the acts you speak of as blatant exploitation. It is the exact same mechanism they use to brainwash captured prisoners of war. Find them (or put them) in a state of desperation and hopelessness and then lift them up out of it in conjunction with the message or belief you wish them to hold. It works. Its why missionaries prey on the poor and the young (who are not yet psychologically developed enough to resist them).

[snakelegs]

You know, this may be the only thing you and I ever agree on.

I see the acts you speak of as blatant exploitation. It is the exact same mechanism they use to brainwash captured prisoners of war. Find them (or put them) in a state of desperation and hopelessness and then lift them up out of it in conjunction with the message or belief you wish them to hold. It works. Its why missionaries prey on the poor and the young (who are not yet psychologically developed enough to resist them).

this is a big problem in poor countries. in india, many hindus are very upset about this - it isn't just the religion, they turn them against their own culture.
american tv religions have big big bucks!

[Jayda]

Existence of God and the danger of religious dogmatism (which I'm sure you and I could have a whole other debate on) isn't something I'd expect an atheist and thesit to agree on.

But do we not all agree on secular morals? What do you mean by secular morals? I bet you and I share many moral values, which shows them to be secular in natureIf they were religious in nature I wouldn't share them with you.

no we do not all agree upon secular morals anymore than we agree upon the universality of christian morals. consider the example of the secular moral 'tolerance,' especially as it relates to the issue of homosexuality. would you say that our active campaigning to deny marital privileges to homosexuals, or our attempts to criminalize homosexual behavior or even to conceed that they fall into a category that might be labeled a disadvantaged minority, is 'tolerant?'

and what happens when atheists challenge christians on this issue? most christians deny that their specific beliefs with regards to tolerance apply to homosexuality, since that's a religious commandment. it's a huge non sequiter because it is an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole... an attempt to install one set of beliefs upon another.

we have similar christian based morals (like caritas) but they are not the same. Christianity does not teach tolerance, it is a secular moral based upon the atheist idea that there can be ethics without God... we do not agree on this at all, it's universality must be proven just like Christians are required to prove the universality of Christianity.

You raise an interesting point. And I do think the two are comparable. From their own points of view both are engaging in a noble act and from the target's point of view they may be seen as arrogant and intolerant.

A religious zealot may see an atheist as rebelling against God and therefore bringing God's wrath down upon not only the atheist but the whole community at large. The atheist may be seen as a danger in that regard and it may be seen as vital to either convert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

An anti-religious person may see a religious person as brainwshed into a dangerous cult and therefore being susceptible to becoming a suicide bomber, witch hunter, crusader or child abuser (denying their children life saving blood transfusions, genital mutilation, etc). They may be seen as a danger and it may be seen as vital to either deconvert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

The line of thought does work from both points of view. Good observation.

i miss the good old days where atheists had to disprove God exists otherwise i win :)

[chacha_jalebi]

the most weird missionairies are the jehovah witnesses!!

and most missionaries that i have heard off go to deprived countries and bribe people with exchange for money and stuff just so they convert, which is stupid and wrong!!

[snakelegs]

pygo,
you are much kinder and more charitable in your heart toward missionaries than i am. and you're an atheist and i believe in God.
go figger!

[glo]

and most missionaries that i have heard off go to deprived countries and bribe people with exchange for money and stuff just so they convert, which is stupid and wrong!!

Where this happens, it is indeed very wrong!

I remember asking for evidence on this a long time ago, but never got any real replies.

It just seems so outlandish to me to think that people would actually use methods like this: "Here is £100. You can have it, if you become a Christian." (??!) :uuh:

I know of many reputable Christians charities who offer support in developing countries. To gain and keep their charity status, their practices are checked and reviewed - and such practices would not be permitted.

If I knew of groups working in ways as you describe, I would certainly be interested to petition against them!

Peace

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

The only missionaries that I sometimes meet are Jeahova Witnesses.

but u r a Christian. So , why should they come to u ? Don't they think u r already saved ???

They must come to me :rolleyes:


Verses we need for hereafter

O mankind!


What is it that lures you away from your bountiful Sustainer, who has created you, and formed you in accordance with what you art meant to be and shaped your nature in just proportions, having put you together in whatever form He willed?

-Quran (82:6-8)

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Where this happens, it is indeed very wrong!

I remember asking for evidence on this a long time ago, but never got any real replies.

missionaries are very much active in my country & i had a long discussion with sis Jayda about it. But what i read about them in newspapers . So , don't know how to give u evidence .


U may ask any church about their activities in Muslim majorities countries .

Detailed discussion will be off topic here.


ok , i just remember .....i met a young man who became Christian because he was told that no christian will get any punishment on the last day ; because Jesus (p) suffered for them already.

This kind of lieing is also bad ..right ?

[Jayda]

This kind of lieing is also bad ..right ?

he was not lying... but he over simplified things a bit...

we believe that our sins are so great that there is literally no way for us to repay them on our own account. there are no 'good people.' we believe that Jesus was crucified to pay this debt and it is the only thing that is great enough to pay for our sins.

that alone does not mean that we will see heaven or avoid hell... Jesus provides a clean slate when we sin, but it is up to us to repent and rework ourselves into better people and be on the right path.

those who have not become a part of the new covenant will die with their sins upon them, we believe there is no salvation for them and God will give them the punishment that they deserve (and we all would deserve if we did not have Jesus).

[Jayda]

Salaam/peace;




but u r a Christian. So , why should they come to u ? Don't they think u r already saved ???

They must come to me :rolleyes:


Verses we need for hereafter

O mankind!


What is it that lures you away from your bountiful Sustainer, who has created you, and formed you in accordance with what you art meant to be and shaped your nature in just proportions, having put you together in whatever form He willed?

-Quran (82:6-8)

Jehovas witnesses are not christians, they are heretics...

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

he was not lying... ..........God will give them the punishment that they deserve (and we all would deserve if we did not have Jesus).

Ok , I understand, we Muslims are going to a very hot place :cry:









But is it ok for missionaries to tell us that become Christians & there will be no punishment for u on the last day ?



I clearly remember that earlier u said like this -- it’s not ok to say so.



May be , I should ask in this thread : Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians

Because of Jesus (p) , Bush , Hitler will get no punishment ??? Jesus (p) died to make all Christians sinless & surely all Christians including killers , rapists will get tickets to heaven ?



What I understood from other Christians & ur posts that some bad Christians might not go to heaven though Jesus (p) died on the cross .





So , missionaries must not tell Muslims what they told a Muslim in my country …am I right ???

Verses we need for hereafter



Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides God;



they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either,



nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up.[34.22]

[AvarAllahNoor]

I don't mind them, I've been known to natter to Mormons, JH, Muslims, Catholics trying to convince me to worship The Virgin Mary. I listen, then start talking about Sikhism, after bit they get the message I can't be penterated they leave.

[MaiCarInMtl]

I've never actually had any kind of religious group come to my door. :( I was always ready to invite people in and serve them tea and cookies.

I'd still listen now as long as I don't feel they are attacking my personal beliefs... Oh, and I wouldn't let them in, they can stay at the door (things are a bit weird in the city these days).

I'll just add this: I first thought this thread was about the old-school missionaries from centuries ago. Those guys were mean and just horrible! They came here to convert natives, called them "savages" and "barbarians"... :( Complete disregard for different beliefs and ways of life!

[snakelegs]

I've never actually had any kind of religious group come to my door. :( I was always ready to invite people in and serve them tea and cookies.

I'd still listen now as long as I don't feel they are attacking my personal beliefs... Oh, and I wouldn't let them in, they can stay at the door (things are a bit weird in the city these days).

I'll just add this: I first thought this thread was about the old-school missionaries from centuries ago. Those guys were mean and just horrible! They came here to convert natives, called them "savages" and "barbarians"... :( Complete disregard for different beliefs and ways of life!

the modern version has been radically updated and now they are much more sophisticated and smoothe. they are even tame! :D

[Isambard]

I never get anyone at my door :(

Whenever I tell someone trying to convince me Im an atheist they give me an uneasy look, drop a pamphlet and scurry off running...>.<

[Heera Singh]

(I haven't read most of the the posts so apologies if I've already repeated something somebody said)

Missionaries, whatever background they come from, are one thing that's wrong with 'religion'. Their whole reason of existence becomes to 'convince' another person that the faith that person believes in is wrong, and that their own faith (missionaries faith) is the right one. By doing this, they're putting so much negative spiritual baggage on their shoulders, and they don't even know it. A life of going door to door, telling people that 'your faith is wrong, our faith is right' so to speak, has no 'spirituality' in it at all. They think they're doing the Lords work, but really, they're just annoying people and taking 'backward' steps on the path to spirituality.

TRUE service of the lord is helping those that are needy, caring for those that have no care, feeding those that have no food, sheltering those that have no shelter. TRUE service of the Lord is SELFLESS service. Which means, you serve other people because you know they are a creation of the lord, you see the lord abiding in them too, and you want NO personal gain from that service; you're serving them for the Love of the Lord only.

For Example: People say Mother Teresa was such a great 'saint' because she went around helping people and what not. Now, don't get me wrong, she DID do a lot of service, but was it selfless?? Mother Teresa would not help those that did not become catholic. She helped only people of her own faith, and only people that agreed to convert to her faith, otherwise they would not get assistance. Now, thats not really 'selfless' service, since she wanted something in return.

To be a TRUE servant of the lord, one must break all bonds of duality and worldliness, and see that God abides in every single creation, because GOD created the creation.

So, overall, missionaries in general, are arrogant to think they are doing Gods Work, and Intollerant of other faiths by basically proclaiming that the only 'real' faith is the one they're propogating.

Bless!

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

[quote=Heera Singh;907443].... Mother Teresa would not help those that did not become catholic. quote]


i read in newspapers that she served many Muslims . Don't know if later they became Christians or not.

may by ur charge is not true? Otherwise , why so many people respected her so much ?
Anyone from Calcutta ???

[Heera Singh]

Salaam/peace;

.... Mother Teresa would not help those that did not become catholic.

i read in newspapers that she served many Muslims . Don't know if later they became Christians or not.

may by ur charge is not true? Otherwise , why so many people respected her so much ?
Anyone from Calcutta ???

I could be completely wrong, but I've heard and read this a few places before... i'll see if i can find where i read this information...

if i'm wrong then I apologize and ask for forgiveness...

[AvarAllahNoor]

Invasion Thru Conversion

http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.ph...630&Itemid=132

[AvarAllahNoor]

Though conversions of oflow caste hindus is ideal as they are treated orse than dogs in india by the 'high' caste cretins.

Here is a ploy to convert uneducated Sikhs by pretending Jesus is 'Satguru Christ' (True Prophet)

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/ag...uru/2444290229

[Keltoi]

Invasion Thru Conversion

http://www.crusadewatch.org/index.ph...630&Itemid=132

That site looks like Jihadwatch....which I'm sure is intentional.

[Heera Singh]

Its common knowledge that christian missionaries in India 'bribe' indians (mainly low caste hindu people) into becoming christian... they're told that they will be helped (food, clothing, shelther etc...) if they convert to christianity...

these 'bribery' tactics are used by many missionaries (especially those in africa and asia)..

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Its common knowledge that christian missionaries in India....... ..

yes , it's true that Christians missionaries are very much active in poor areas ; but may be we must not forget that how some or many high class hindus torture lower caste people.



I read that higher caste hindus don't allow lower caste hindus to drink water from the same pond/well, lower caste people are not allowed to even enter in to temples .


May be , that is one of the reasons many Hindus are becoming Chrisitians ??

[Heera Singh]

yeah.. ur right... they're treated like dogs by the upper caste people.. which is bad enuff... but again, 2 wrongs dont' make a right..

christian missionaries (and i'm using christian missionaries because they're known to be the most active among those in india) know that low caste hindu people are living a horrid life, and they jump at this chance to convert them... a TRUE servant of the lord does not look at race, colour or religion.. if they were pure at heart they would help them no matter what background they came from... but, alas, they see this as an opportunity to 'increase their numbers'...

if a person chooses to convert their faith to another, then i personally have no problem with that.. to each their own... but when a group uses 'forced converstion' so to speak (and i say 'forced conversion', because these people have no food, water, clothing, shelter, and they're 'forced' to do anything for these things) to 'help' these people, thats where my problem lies... the nerve of some people to say that 'we'll only help you if you become one of us' is astounding... these people who do things like this don't know God, they're not doing any 'service', they're only doing it for their own personal gain...

[AvarAllahNoor]

That site looks like Jihadwatch....which I'm sure is intentional.

Just something I found on the net. - Like I stated, if they are converted to help them out of the caste system great, if not, then it's morally wrong don't you think?

[جوري]

:haha:.. I love this.. thanks for sharing crusadewatch avar :smile:.. after intense fury over wasted hours that could have been used to feed the cat (who died a while back) taking the tangles out of my ridiculousely long hair or vaccuming the nonexisting carpets on my dark wood floors instead of refuting morons on jihadwatch, I found that now exists a Jewatch and a christian watch.. it just fills my heart with warmth to know there is enough hate to go around..
God bless

cheers

[Walter]

Hi Everyone:

Christian missionaries believe that they are following Jesus’ command to spread the Gospel. This Gospel includes feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, tending to the sick, and looking after the widow and fatherless, regardless of whether they choose to believe or not.

Christian missionaries know full well that they can do nothing to convince someone to be a believer. God himself draws people to Himself and people either accept or reject Him – not the missionary. The missionary is there to simply care for people and tell them of their personal experience with Jesus if the people choose to listen.

Missionaries know that they can be despised, persecuted, and even killed in many of the countries to which they go. Many are killed annually, yet they willingly surrender to God and risk their lives in simply doing good and talking about Jesus. They probably make up 99% of all of God’s martyrs.

If you do not want their food, clothing, shelter, medicine, education, or care, then simply say no thank you. Do not persecute them - please.

Regards,
Grenville

[Heera Singh]

They probably make up 99&#37; of all of God’s martyrs.

and how do u figure? source please...

they go in with the intention to convert people... i really think they're main goal is conversion and their secondary goal is helping the needy..

the people i'm speakin out against is those that use this 'help' as a means to 'bribe' people into converting.. and also those that refuse to help unless people convert...

[KAding]

I'm fairly tolerant and forgiving towards missionaries. Everyone is responsible for his or her own beliefs. If these missionaries manage the convert someone, well, good for them. And frankly, those actually being converted generally seem thrilled about the whole experience, so why would I feel sorry for anyone.

I'm also very skeptical about these claims of 'bribing'. Firstly, it is obviously an exception and not the rule, so it is somewhat of a straw man. Secondly, like I said, everyone is responsible for his own beliefs. If they can start 'believing' in exchange for money/goods/services, they they seem to want to believe anyway.

[Walter]

Hi Heera:

As I explained, their principal goal is to spread the Gospel. This includes helping others and sharing their experience with Jesus. They are both important.

Regarding the “bribing” issue. Either you misunderstood the missionary’s intent, or the person was simply not a missionary. All Christians know that it is impossible to bribe, force, or trick anyone into becoming a believer. The individual must have a personal encounter with God – there is no other way.

Of course, religious organisations have used bribery, trickery and force to compel persons to join their organisations. That is very different from having a relationship with God.

Finally, you asked about the source for the 99% martyr estimate. There is no source. It was arrived at by inductive reasoning.

Q. Who qualifies as a martyr?
A. Those who are killed for their faith in God.

Q. Who are generally killed for their faith in God.
A. Missionaries who leave the comfort of their home and family and go to areas hostile to the Gospel, and those who have been converted in countries hostile to the Gospel.

Q. Who is more likely to be killed?
A. Probably the foreigner because he/she can be easily identified.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Regards,
Grenville

[Pygoscelis]

I'm also very skeptical about these claims of 'bribing'. Firstly, it is obviously an exception and not the rule, so it is somewhat of a straw man. Secondly, like I said, everyone is responsible for his own beliefs. If they can start 'believing' in exchange for money/goods/services, they they seem to want to believe anyway.

It really depends on the missionary group in question. They vary along a wide spectrum. There are ones who will simply annoy you with their constant preaching. Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses are pretty harmless, even amusing at times.

Then there are those who will truly intrude on you. I have an inuit friend who had a missionary group enter his community and provide "free daycare" to the children there, never divulging their true motives, and then try to brainwash them, some as young as 5, to turn against their own culture - all without parental consent.

Then there are those who will exploit their sway over you and ask you to send "donations to the church", getting rich off of the foolish.

Then you've got the overseas ones who enter poor communities to "help" them, all in conjunction with their brainwashing message. They prey on the weak and vulnerable and that I find highly offensive.

Then of course there are the outright cults who will take people away to "retreats" and cut off all their contact with the outside world.

Then of course you've got the historical missionaries who did far far worse, giving many "savages" the option of conversion or death.

[Amadeus85]

We shouldnt put all christian missionaries to one basket.For example, I know about catholic missionaries in Senegal, where muslims are 90&#37;.Catholics run there schools where young men and boys can learn not only elementary knowledge but also basics of many technical skills. And majority of students there are muslims and no one tell them to convert, they even have place to pray in that school.We also shouldnt think that all evangelical missionaries are bad,because we talk about people who risk their lives going to countries like North Korea,China,Birma or Cambodia to share with something that they strongly believe in.If someone believes in something that he is ready to die for it, so why would he use such silly things like bribing. He believes that his belief has such power that it is enough to get interested from the local people.That is my opinion of course and I have it from my logical thinking, not from peronal experience,as the only missionaries that I meet are Jaevova Witnesses.

[Keltoi]

Missionary activity is almost an obligation to many fully practicing Christians. I myself was a missionary in Ireland. Yes, I know, hardly a global hotspot. :) I didn't bribe anyone either.

I think where this perception comes from is the duel role a missionary takes when he or she goes into a third world country. There is the missionary activity of spreading the Good News, but also in caring for the poor, sick, and homeless. The fact that they go hand in hand leads many to believe they are using aid to promote a religion. In a way they are, as showing kindness to forgotten people is something Christians take seriously as an example from Christ Himself. It is a way of saying "Here is what I believe, and here is what I do because of it".

[Pygoscelis]

Missionary activity is almost an obligation to many fully practicing Christians. I myself was a missionary in Ireland. Yes, I know, hardly a global hotspot. :) I didn't bribe anyone either.

I think where this perception comes from is the duel role a missionary takes when he or she goes into a third world country. There is the missionary activity of spreading the Good News, but also in caring for the poor, sick, and homeless. The fact that they go hand in hand leads many to believe they are using aid to promote a religion. In a way they are, as showing kindness to forgotten people is something Christians take seriously as an example from Christ Himself. It is a way of saying "Here is what I believe, and here is what I do because of it".

It is textbook brainwashing. Take somebody in desperation and help them out of it in conjunction with a message for them to believe. It works for governments on enemy prisoners of war, and it works for missionaries on poor vulnerable teens and 3rd world peoples.

[Muezzin]

It is textbook brainwashing. Take somebody in desperation and help them out of it in conjunction with a message for them to believe. It works for governments on enemy prisoners of war, and it works for missionaries on poor vulnerable teens and 3rd world peoples.

I don't see anything wrong with helping people out, and for them to see that you're helping them out, and, if they wish, to take the next step by emulating your way of life. If a teacher helps a failing student, then tells the student 'believe in yourself', is the teacher brainwashing the student into a state of self-confidence?

I do see something very wrong with requiring people to convert to your religious/political/sexual orientation etc before you agree to help them.

[Abdul Fattah]

Short of answering the door nude or screaming obscenities at them how do you get rid of missionaries?
There has been an upsurge in door to door missionaries (mostly jehovas witnesses) here lately and it has got me thinking. These people at noble and loving but arrogant and intollerant at the same time. It is quite the conflicted state.

I don't think it's that much of a question of trying to save vs. not trying to save others, but rather a question of finding the most appropriate, functioning method. I do try to "save" people any opportunity I get, but I don't try to force new opportunities. If in a hypotetical case, you ring 100 doorbels and 2 people are mildly interested, 5 lonely people take the opportunity to have a chat and 10 people from other religions will try to convince you instead, whereas the remainder 83 get frustrated, you're doing more damage than good. So I wouldn't say arrogant, but perhaps naive?

[Keltoi]

It is textbook brainwashing. Take somebody in desperation and help them out of it in conjunction with a message for them to believe. It works for governments on enemy prisoners of war, and it works for missionaries on poor vulnerable teens and 3rd world peoples.

Yes, I know you believe that people who live in the third world are ignorant empty vessels who are ripe for manipulation. Be that as it may, "brainwashing" has nothing to do with missionary activity. In all of the missionary activities I've been involved with, and there have been a good number of them, the charity work is an act all its own. We don't hide the fact that it is a Christian operation, but we don't expect people to declare faith in Christ before they are given food, clothing, etc. I would say the majority of people simply take what is offered and go on their merry way. For the vast majority of missionaries that is just fine, because it is the act of charity that brings happiness, regardless of who takes advantage of that charity.

[KAding]

I'm going to be a bit nasty here, but isn't it a bit hypocritical to accuse Christians of bribing when Islam seems to condone such practices?

“As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa’ (poor), and Al‑Masaakeen (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allaah’s Cause (i.e. for Mujaahidoon — those fighting in a holy battle), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allaah. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Tawbah 9:60]

Doesn't this basically say that Zakat (ie charity money) should only go to non-Muslims in order to attract them to Islam? Looking at some fatwa websites it seems that is the majority opinion?

[Muezzin]

I'm going to be a bit nasty here, but isn't it a bit hypocritical to accuse Christians of bribing when Islam seems to condone such practices?

“As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa’ (poor), and Al‑Masaakeen (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allaah’s Cause (i.e. for Mujaahidoon — those fighting in a holy battle), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allaah. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Tawbah 9:60]

Doesn't this basically say that Zakat (ie charity money) should only go to non-Muslims in order to attract them to Islam?

Only if no non-Muslims are 'poor'. Poor people get aid and food and other great stuff that Robert Mugabe denies them.

As for the wider issue - it depends how the money is used exactly. If they're building machines which require the needy to recite the shahadah before they can receive food, I'd say that's disgustingly immoral.

If, on the other hand, the money was simply going to intitiatives where Muslim volunteers feed the needy (via things like homeless shelters etc), and don't require them to become Muslim to receive aid, I fail to see how that would amount to any sort of bribery whatever.

[Keltoi]

Only if no non-Muslims are 'poor'. Poor people get aid and food and other great stuff that Robert Mugabe denies them.

As for the wider issue - it depends how the money is used exactly. If they're building machines which require the needy to recite the shahadah before they can receive food, I'd say that's disgustingly immoral.

If, on the other hand, the money was simply going to intitiatives where Muslim volunteers feed the needy (via things like homeless shelters etc), and don't require them to become Muslim to receive aid, I fail to see how that would amount to any sort of bribery whatever.

Which is generally the case in all religious missionary/charity operations. The stuff is given to the needy regardless of their interest in that faith. I think it is a popular misconception that religious based charities only give to those who convert to that particular religion.

[Pygoscelis]

misconception that religious based charities only give to those who convert to that particular religion.

I agree. They don't give only to those who will convert. But they do give in hope of converting, and many of them do spend significant resources on religious dogma and propaganda materials.

To this end I always make a point of finding a secular charities to give my money to (Doctor's without borders is a great example). I realize that our perspectives will vary, but from my vantage point there is no such thing as a religious "charity". Charity should be done solely for the sake of charity, and not for the sake of spreading an ideology or religion.

That said, I have no issue with a religious person doing charity work because his religion motivates him to (good on him for that). My issue is with the organizations themselves and their often explicit goal of spreading their views.

And that said, the charities in question really do vary along a wide spectrum. Some religious charities are barely religious at all whereas others are truly disturbingly so.