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islamirama
01-22-2008, 08:23 PM
Bringing Death and Destruction to Muslims
by Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=12224

After pandering to Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert's right-wing government last week, US president George W. Bush carried the Israeli/neoconservative campaign against Iran to Arab countries. Sounding as authentic as the " Filipino Monkey," Bush told the Arab countries that "Iran is the world's leading state sponsor of terror," and that "Iran's actions threaten the security of nations everywhere."


To no effect. Every country in the world, except America, knows by now that the US is the world's leading state sponsor of terror and that the neoconservative drive for US hegemony over the world threatens the security of nations everywhere. But before we get into this, let's first see what Bush means by "terrorist" and Iran's sponsorship of terrorism.
Bush considers Iran to be the leading state sponsor of terror, because Iran is believed to fund Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian ghetto. Hezbollah and Hamas are two organizations that exist because of Israeli aggression against Palestine and Lebanon. The two organizations are branded "terrorist" because they resist Israel's theft of Palestine and Israel's designs on southern Lebanon. Both organizations are resistance organizations. They resist Israel's territorial expansion and this makes them "terrorist."


They are terrorists because they don't receive billions in US military aid and cannot put armies in the field with tanks, fighter jets and helicopter gunships, backed up by US spy satellites and Israel's nuclear weapons although Hezbollah, a small militia, has twice defeated the Israeli army. However, Palestine is so thoroughly under the Israeli heel that Hamas can resist only with suicide bombers and obsolete rockets. It is dishonest to **** the terrorist response but not the policies that provoke the response.
The US is at war in Iraq, because the neoconservatives want to rid Israel of the Muslim governments Iraq, Iran and Syria that are not American surrogates and, therefore, are willing to fund Palestinian and Lebanese resistance to Israeli aggression. Israel, protected by the US, has disobeyed UN resolutions for four decades and has been methodically squeezing Palestinians out of Palestine.


Americans do not think of themselves or of Israel as terrorist states, but the evidence is complete and overwhelming. Thanks to the power of the Israel Lobby, Americans only know the Israeli side of the story, which is that evil anti-semite Palestinians will not let blameless Israelis live in peace and persist in their unjustified terror attacks on an innocent Israeli state.
The facts differ remarkably from Israel Lobby propaganda. Israel illegally occupies Palestine. Israel sends bulldozers into Palestinian villages and knocks down Palestinian houses, occasionally killing an American protester in the process, and uproots Palestinian olive groves. Israel cuts Palestinian villages off from water, hospitals, farmlands, employment and schools. Israel builds special roads through Palestine on which only Israelis can travel. Israel establishes checkpoints everywhere to hinder Palestinian movement to hospitals, schools and from one enclave or ghetto to another. Many Palestinians die from the inability to get through checkpoints to medical care. Israel builds illegal settlements on Palestinian lands. Israeli Zionist "settlers" take it upon themselves to evict Palestinians from their villages and towns in order to convert them into Israeli settlements. A huge wall has been built to wall off the stolen Palestinian lands from the remaining isolated ghettoes. Israeli soldiers shoot down Palestinian children in the streets. So do Israeli Zionist "settlers."


All of this has been documented so many times by so many organizations that it is pathetic that Americans are so ignorant. For example, Israeli peace groups such as Gush Shalom or Jeff Halper's Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions provide abundant documentation of Israel's theft of Palestine and persecution of Palestinians. Every time the UN passes a resolution condemning Israel for its crimes, the US vetoes it.


The Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees' film, The Iron Wall , reveals the enormity of Israel's crimes against Palestine.


President Jimmy Carter, Israel's friend, tried to bring peace to the Middle East but was frustrated by Israel. Carter was demonized by the Israel Lobby for calling, truthfully, the situation that Israel has created "apartheid."


Historians, including Israel's finest, such as Ilan Pappe, have documented The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, the title of Pappe's book published in 2006.


Israelis, such as Uri Avnery, a former member of Israel's Knesset, are stronger critics of Israel's policies toward Palestine than can be found in America. The Israeli newspaper Haaretz is more outspoken in its criticism of Israeli policies than any newspaper would dare to be in North America or Europe.


But it is all to no avail in brainwashed America where Israelis wear white hats and Arabs wear black hats.


The ignorance of Americans commits US foreign policy to the service of Israel. As Uri Avnery wrote recently, a visitor from another planet, attending the recent press conference in Jerusalem, would conclude that Olmert is the leader of the superpower and that Bush is his vassal.
Americans don't know what terror is. To know terror, you have to be a Palestinian, an Iraqi, or an Afghan.


Layla Anwar, an Iraqi Internet blogger, describes what terror is like . Terror is families attending a wedding being blown to pieces by an American missile or bomb and the survivors being blown to pieces at the funeral of the newlyweds. Terror is troops breaking down your door in the middle of the night, putting guns to your heads, and carrying off brothers, sons, and husbands with bags over their heads and returning to rape the unprotected women. Terror is being waterboarded in one of America's torture dungeons. Terror is "when you run from hospital ward to hospital ward, from prison to prison, from militia to militia looking for your loved one only to recognize them from their teeth fillings in some morgue."


For people targeted by American hegemony, terror is realizing that Americans have no moral conscience. Terror is the lack of medicines from American embargoes that led to the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children. When asked by Lesley Stahl if the American policy was worth the children's deaths, Madeleine Albright, President Bill Clinton's secretary of state, said "we think the price is worth it."


In the feeble minds of the White House Moron and his immoral supporters, the massive deaths for which America is responsible, including those inflicted by Israel, have nothing to do with Muslim enmity toward America. Instead, Muslims hate us for our "freedom and democracy," the real threat to which comes from Bush's police state measures and stolen elections.
There is dispute over the number of Iraqis killed or murdered by Bush's illegal invasion, a war crime under the Nuremberg standard, but everyone agrees the number is very large. Many deaths result from American bombing of civilian populations as the Israelis did in Lebanon and do in Gaza. There is nothing new about these bombings. President Clinton bombed civilians in Serbia in order to dictate policy to Serbia. But when Americans and Israelis bomb other peoples, it is not terror. It is only terror when the US or Israel is attacked in retaliation.


The Israeli assault from the air on Beirut apartment houses is not terror. But when a Palestinian puts on a suicide belt and blows himself up in an Israeli cafe, that's terror. When Clinton bombs a Serbian passenger train, that's not terror, but when a buried explosive takes out an American tank somewhere in Iraq, that's terror.
Aggressors always have excuses for their aggression. Hitler was an expert at this. So are the US and Israel.


Unfortunately for the world, there's little chance for change in America or Israel. The presidential candidates (Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich) who would bring change in Washington, without which there will be no change in Israel, are not in the running for their party's nomination. As John J. Mearsheimer noted on January 12 , the candidates in the running are as much under the thumb of the Israel Lobby as Bush. The candidates are Bush clones as strongly committed as Bush to hegemony, war, Israel and executive power.


The possible exception is Obama. If he is an exception, that makes him a threat to the powers that be, and, as we might have witnessed in the NH primary, the Republican-supplied, Republican-programmed Diebold electronic voting machines can easily be rigged to deny him the Democratic nomination. Hillary will not resist Israel's wishes, and her husband's presidency bombed at will his demonized victims.


There is no essential difference between the candidates or between the candidates and George W. Bush. Alabama Governor George Wallace, a surprisingly successful third party candidate for the presidency, said as long ago as 1968, "There's not a dime's worth of difference between the Democrat and Republican Parties." Today, four decades later, there's not a penny's worth of difference, not an ounce of difference. Both parties have revealed themselves to be warmonger police state parties. The US Constitution has few friends in the capital city.
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Keltoi
01-23-2008, 03:37 PM
What a source...:) It was entertaining reading, although I feel like I've read the same story hundreds of times from these people...wonder if they just recycle old articles and change some words around?
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minaz
01-23-2008, 04:29 PM
I think a lot of people think that Obama will radically change U.S. foreign policy. He most likely won't invade a couple of countries in his time, however I think he will carry on the main themes that have carried throughout the current presidency- IF he wins.

I don't think Death and Destruction to Muslims will be in any of the Democrats or Republican hopefulls minds.
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Cognescenti
01-23-2008, 05:30 PM
"The possible exception is Obama. If he is an exception, that makes him a threat to the powers that be, and, as we might have witnessed in the NH primary, the Republican-supplied, Republican-programmed Diebold electronic voting machines can easily be rigged to deny him the Democratic nomination. Hillary will not resist Israel's wishes, and her husband's presidency bombed at will his demonized victims." :D

It sounds like a parody. How is anybody supposed to take this guy seriously?

This part is a hoot: ".. the Republican-supplied, Republican-programmed Diebold electronic voting machines can easily be rigged to deny him the Democratic nomination."

Am I to understand that Republicans programmed the voting machines in New Hampshire so Hillary Clinton would win for the Dems??? :nervous: How much do you want to bet this guy hears voices that aren't really there?
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Eric H
01-23-2008, 06:09 PM
Greetings and peace be with you islamirama;

Many Christians oppose the war in Iraq, here is one link.

http://www.for.org.uk/cpwi

2) Christian Peace Witness for Iraq: A Call to Prayer and Action

20th March 2008 marks the 5th anniversary of the start of the war with Iraq. We invite you to mark the eve of this war – Wednesday 19th March - and join with other Christians in the UK and the USA in recalling the suffering of the people of Iraq, in repenting of the role that our nation has played, in praying for forgiveness and healing and in committing to action for peace with justice for the people of Iraq and neighbouring countries.

This will be Holy Week when we remember Jesus’ path to the cross - the betrayal, the torture, the abandonment - so to we remember the people of Iraq.

FoR, Pax Christi and other members of the Network of Christian Peace Organisations are preparing material for vigils around the country. Why not arrange a vigil in your church or town centre on 19th March? You may like to fast on the day and make a donation to organisations working for justice in Iraq.

In the spirit of praying for peace and reconciliation

Eric
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Cognescenti
01-23-2008, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you islamirama;

Many Christians oppose the war in Iraq, here is one link.
....
Eric;

With all due respect, he isn't concerned about peace. He is concerned about making the US look bad :smile:

I will join you in your prayer for peace. I pray AQI gets their ***** kicked. Then we will have peace..for a while. :smile:
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islamirama
01-25-2008, 06:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Eric;

With all due respect, he isn't concerned about peace. He is concerned about making the US look bad :smile:

I will join you in your prayer for peace. I pray AQI gets their ***** kicked. Then we will have peace..for a while. :smile:
With the colors you have displayed here, you should be the last one talking about peace and others. You *snip* have done nothing but find excuses for your regime from its illegal war to occupation to war crimes. If you want peace, get the hell out of other people's nations and you'll have your peace, it's simple as that.

No personal attacks please
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snakelegs
01-25-2008, 06:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I pray AQI gets their ***** kicked. Then we will have peace..for a while. :smile:
u.s. policy has done more for AQ than anyone could've dreamed....
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E'jaazi
01-25-2008, 09:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
u.s. policy has done more for AQ than anyone could've dreamed....
That's why Muslims shouldn't vote for the kuffar. They do not have our interest in mind. In this case, there is no "lesser of two evils." The two evils may have different names and different faces, but they are evil just the same.
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snakelegs
01-25-2008, 10:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by E'jaazi
That's why Muslims shouldn't vote for the kuffar. They do not have our interest in mind. In this case, there is no "lesser of two evils." The two evils may have different names and different faces, but they are evil just the same.
i am very ambivalent about voting. i also see little point in choosing between 2 evils.
and the mainstream candidates don't have my interests at heart either, since i am not a multi-millionaire or a corporation.
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islamirama
01-25-2008, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by E'jaazi
That's why Muslims shouldn't vote for the kuffar. They do not have our interest in mind. In this case, there is no "lesser of two evils." The two evils may have different names and different faces, but they are evil just the same.
It's even pointless to vote in usa. In australia, if you vote for the person, that person gets elected by PUBLIC vote. In US, public votes just for show. The electorial votes only count. And even the public voting is so corrupt with fraud and what not. So many reports of miscounted ballots, names changed on ballot, and other stuff. Bush got in power by fraud, the other candidate won clearly. Guess it helps to have a bro as governor to "recount" ballots again....
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Cognescenti
01-25-2008, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by E'jaazi
That's why Muslims shouldn't vote for the kuffar. They do not have our interest in mind. In this case, there is no "lesser of two evils." The two evils may have different names and different faces, but they are evil just the same.
Help me to understand. Are you saying that 80% of the people who live on this planet are evil...or just the Democratic and Republican candidates for President of the US? As none of us know for sure who the candidates will be, I am thinking it must be the former. If so snip

No personal attacks please
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Cognescenti
01-25-2008, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
It's even pointless to vote in usa. In australia, if you vote for the person, that person gets elected by PUBLIC vote. In US, public votes just for show. The electorial votes only count. And even the public voting is so corrupt with fraud and what not. So many reports of miscounted ballots, names changed on ballot, and other stuff. Bush got in power by fraud, the other candidate won clearly. Guess it helps to have a bro as governor to "recount" ballots again....

:D You guys just cannot get over it, can you? I it is refreshing to hear a non-Jew (Jeb Bush) was behind the gigantic conspiracy. I have grown tired of the Interantional Jewish Media Cabal and the Pro-Israel Lobby running all the elections. At least this time there was an Anglo type in charge...Woohoo!
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Cognescenti
01-25-2008, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
u.s. policy has done more for AQ than anyone could've dreamed....
Yes, the remaining leadership have now have taken up luxurious residences in the basement of the North Waziristan Hilton where they have no access to funds or electronic communication and the room service is terrible. A fair number have assumed room temperature and there are more than a few who our now guests at the all-inclusive Club Gitmo. Meanwhile, there has been no further attacks on US soil. The leader of AQI is room temperature. The Sunni Sheiks have turned on them. Their fissure with the Shia has been revealed for all the world to see. They failed in Saudi Arabia. They failed in the Pilippines. The Indonesian government is cracking down on their allies.

Even Sylvio Berlosconi got reelected :D

Yes...they are on quite a winning streak, aren't they?
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Muezzin
01-25-2008, 10:56 PM
Members are urged to stop fighting, please. Infractions will result for the next erm... offence.
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islamirama
01-26-2008, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
:D You guys just cannot get over it, can you? I it is refreshing to hear a non-Jew (Jeb Bush) was behind the gigantic conspiracy. I have grown tired of the Interantional Jewish Media Cabal and the Pro-Israel Lobby running all the elections. At least this time there was an Anglo type in charge...Woohoo!
dude go on google and search for bush elections and fraud or something, even a monkey can do that much to enlighten himself :blind:
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Keltoi
01-26-2008, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
dude go on google and search for bush elections and fraud or something, even a monkey can do that much to enlighten himself :blind:
You can go on google and find articles on UFO's and vampires too...sometimes what we read on the internet isn't based on fact or anything remotely resembling evidence. Opinion pieces and political whining is not proof of fraud.
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Cognescenti
01-26-2008, 02:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
dude go on google and search for bush elections and fraud or something, even a monkey can do that much to enlighten himself :blind:
Indeed, a monkey could google "Bush election/fraud". It might be possible, for said monkey conducting reasearch in such a fashion to find another monkey who claims that Jeb Bush had something to do with vote recounts in Florida.

It might also be possible for that monkey to find out how many times in the history of the United States that the popular vote outcome differed from the elctoral college outcome so that said monkey might not display his historical ignorance when jumping up and down and throwing feces in his monkey cage.
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Gator
01-26-2008, 04:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
It's even pointless to vote in usa. In australia, if you vote for the person, that person gets elected by PUBLIC vote. In US, public votes just for show. The electorial votes only count. And even the public voting is so corrupt with fraud and what not. So many reports of miscounted ballots, names changed on ballot, and other stuff. Bush got in power by fraud, the other candidate won clearly. Guess it helps to have a bro as governor to "recount" ballots again....
Islama,
With all respect, you are way overboard here. I volunteer for the elections in my district. I would put the hard, honest people who work in the elections boards in the United States at all levels against the most hardcore democracies/republics in the world throughout history. Why?, because everyone cares about this society.

You are doing them a major injustice and showing how lost to extremist thought you are. The wrongdoings you speak of don't even add up to a trivial sum (even when most are found out they are not even correct).

The problem is in the political games of redistricting and voter applications. Some states have increased the threshold for ID when voting even though not a SINGLE incident has been sited and proven correct.

As liberal as I am, even this doesn't impact election results in even the slightest way. If Florida was too close to count so be it. Would I have liked Gore to win, Yes, but that's the way it is. A republic is different that a democracy and we all know the rules here. The same voting rules that elected Bush, are meant as a political compromise to protect smaller states. Yes there's inefficiency, but hardly anything I would call corrupt or fraudulent.

As is said, democracy is the worst government ever tried, except for all the rest. I would really appreciate it if you soften you stance on this one.

Thanks.
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islamirama
01-26-2008, 07:46 PM
Gator,

with all due respect. I have to disagree with you. You may have worked with very honest and hard working people. But there was plenty of evidence of election corruption, manipulation, fraud and many other things. Many ballots were being counted twice, many were voted for one candidate but being counted for the opposite or changed to the opposite, many were being thrown out and many other things went on. Ohio is a majority anti-bush party state, upto the elections majority were against him, now how did he end up winning in that state then? I like I said, plenty of evidence surfaced for what went on in those elections and it's not mere opinions of some guy ranting online as someone has suggested. Lastly, you would be very naive to believe that statement of yours "because everyone cares about this society", we all know that is not true regardless which society society you talk about.
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Keltoi
01-26-2008, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Gator,

with all due respect. I have to disagree with you. You may have worked with very honest and hard working people. But there was plenty of evidence of election corruption, manipulation, fraud and many other things. Many ballots were being counted twice, many were voted for one candidate but being counted for the opposite or changed to the opposite, many were being thrown out and many other things went on. Ohio is a majority anti-bush party state, upto the elections majority were against him, now how did he end up winning in that state then? I like I said, plenty of evidence surfaced for what went on in those elections and it's not mere opinions of some guy ranting online as someone has suggested. Lastly, you would be very naive to believe that statement of yours "because everyone cares about this society", we all know that is not true regardless which society society you talk about.
If there would have been any evidence of fraud in Ohio, John Kerry would have blown a gasket and taken the case to the Supreme Court. There was no evidence of fraud in Ohio. Plus, Ohio is hardly an anti-Bush state.
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snakelegs
01-26-2008, 08:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Gator,

with all due respect. I have to disagree with you. You may have worked with very honest and hard working people. But there was plenty of evidence of election corruption, manipulation, fraud and many other things. Many ballots were being counted twice, many were voted for one candidate but being counted for the opposite or changed to the opposite, many were being thrown out and many other things went on. Ohio is a majority anti-bush party state, upto the elections majority were against him, now how did he end up winning in that state then? I like I said, plenty of evidence surfaced for what went on in those elections and it's not mere opinions of some guy ranting online as someone has suggested. Lastly, you would be very naive to believe that statement of yours "because everyone cares about this society", we all know that is not true regardless which society society you talk about.
you know, in my view the elections are fixed before they are even held. we are always given a choice between 2 finalists who are not terribly different from each other, who both take money from the same corporations and buy their way in for millions and millions of $. they do not represent me or anyone i have ever known - they represent and are beholden to the interests that buy them.
anybody half way decent doesn't get the bucks and doesn't get the media coverage.
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جوري
01-26-2008, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
you know, in my view the elections are fixed before they are even held. we are always given a choice between 2 finalists who are not terribly different from each other, who both take money from the same corporations and buy their way in for millions and millions of $. they do not represent me or anyone i have ever known - they represent and are beholden to the interests that buy them.
anybody half way decent doesn't get the bucks and doesn't get the media coverage.
yup.. it is always between kang and kodos



peace
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islamirama
01-26-2008, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
If there would have been any evidence of fraud in Ohio, John Kerry would have blown a gasket and taken the case to the Supreme Court. There was no evidence of fraud in Ohio. Plus, Ohio is hardly an anti-Bush state.
You're talking to an Ohioan buddy, i don't think you can see that clearly here from oklahoma....
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
you know, in my view the elections are fixed before they are even held. we are always given a choice between 2 finalists who are not terribly different from each other, who both take money from the same corporations and buy their way in for millions and millions of $. they do not represent me or anyone i have ever known - they represent and are beholden to the interests that buy them.
anybody half way decent doesn't get the bucks and doesn't get the media coverage.


I have to agree with you. There's never a true democracy in US anymore, the masses are given the impression that it's a democracy and what they say matters and they do have a say in things. US belongs to those who have money, whether it's lobbyists like the jews who can kill your political career if you don't kiss their behind or its the corps giving you millions $$ and incentives and gifts to promote their interests. Why do you think smoking is not banned like other drugs.
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Keltoi
01-26-2008, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
You're talking to an Ohioan buddy, i don't think you can see that clearly here from oklahoma....




I have to agree with you. There's never a true democracy in US anymore, the masses are given the impression that it's a democracy and what they say matters and they do have a say in things. US belongs to those who have money, whether it's lobbyists like the jews who can kill your political career if you don't kiss their behind or its the corps giving you millions $$ and incentives and gifts to promote their interests. Why do you think smoking is not banned like other drugs.
It doesn't matter if you're from Ohio...there was never evidence of political fraud in the presidential election. Bush was ahead of Kerry by a large margin, which wasn't even disputed by the Kerry campaign. Sometimes when things don't go your way, it isn't caused by a national conspiracy.
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Cognescenti
01-27-2008, 12:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It doesn't matter if you're from Ohio...there was never evidence of political fraud in the presidential election. Bush was ahead of Kerry by a large margin, which wasn't even disputed by the Kerry campaign. Sometimes when things don't go your way, it isn't caused by a national conspiracy.
Perhaps the Freemasons did it? They are Republicans, aren't they...mostly?
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Intisar
01-27-2008, 02:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by E'jaazi
That's why Muslims shouldn't vote for the kuffar. They do not have our interest in mind. In this case, there is no "lesser of two evils." The two evils may have different names and different faces, but they are evil just the same.
Not voting would be worse than actually voting.

Besides, what's the harm in voting for someone who has our best interests at hand?
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islamirama
01-27-2008, 06:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Not voting would be worse than actually voting.

Besides, what's the harm in voting for someone who has our best interests at hand?
Voting for someone who has our best interest at hand? I haven't seen any such person as of yet. ISNA and other muslim organizations were ranting in every masjid for muslims to vote for bush, look how great that turned out.

Ron paul is the only one talking about the reality of the situation and how it is US's actions and past that has made a world dangerous place. That it is US who continues to have its military bases in Muslim world and continues to stir trouble. But him winning elections are next to nothing, not when the whole bunch are in the other bin.

format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It doesn't matter if you're from Ohio...there was never evidence of political fraud in the presidential election. Bush was ahead of Kerry by a large margin, which wasn't even disputed by the Kerry campaign. Sometimes when things don't go your way, it isn't caused by a national conspiracy.
I was referring to when he first came to power, during his first term elections with Al Gore i think.

And it doesn't matter what you think, there was and is evidence.
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Gator
01-27-2008, 06:12 AM
so snake,
You believe if Gore was in office we would still have invaded Iraq? Is that right?
thanks.
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snakelegs
01-27-2008, 06:37 AM
giving this some more thought - i really don't know. who does?
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minaz
01-27-2008, 06:05 PM
^
I don't think U.S. under Gore would have invaded Iraq, his political thinking is opposite to that of Bush's Neoconservative & Evangelical one. He's done much to highlight the danger that is Climate Change. But no I don't think he'd of invaded Iraq.


To exercise your right to vote is very important. Much blood has been shed for this 'Human right'.


Whoever comes into the WhiteHouse will not bring Death or Destruction to Muslims, unless an external factor such as a '9/11' occurs. Even if Iran moves ever closer towards a nuke, there is no way that the already stretched U.S. Military could cope with a 3rd conflict against a country who's majority of citizens are behind their government's policies.

I'm fairly confident that Barrack/Hillary/John/Mit or whoever, won't bring Death and Destruction.
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Gator
01-27-2008, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
giving this some more thought - i really don't know. who does?
The response of a true agnostic! :D

Thanks for your response minaz.
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Cognescenti
01-27-2008, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by minaz
^
I don't think U.S. under Gore would have invaded Iraq, his political thinking is opposite to that of Bush's Neoconservative & Evangelical one. He's done much to highlight the danger that is Climate Change. But no I don't think he'd of invaded Iraq.


To exercise your right to vote is very important. Much blood has been shed for this 'Human right'.


Whoever comes into the WhiteHouse will not bring Death or Destruction to Muslims, unless an external factor such as a '9/11' occurs. Even if Iran moves ever closer towards a nuke, there is no way that the already stretched U.S. Military could cope with a 3rd conflict against a country who's majority of citizens are behind their government's policies.

I'm fairly confident that Barrack/Hillary/John/Mit or whoever, won't bring Death and Destruction.
Minaz;

I think your analysis vis a vis Gore is too superficial.

Many people dont realize this but regime change in Iraq became a stated goal of United States foreign policy when Public Law 105-338 (the "Iraq Liberation Act") was signed into law by....wait for it...... President Bill Clinton. :D

The act directed that:

"It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

Almost sounds kinda Neocon, doesn't it? I have a vague recollection that Gore had some role in the Clinton administration. So, if Clinton had become room temperature for some reason, then Gore would have had a solemn obligation to pursue the goal as he would have sworn to uphold and enforce the laws of the nation. Perhaps Bush's fault is he took his job too seriously.

Certainly, Gore, as President would have faced unstoppable pressure to do something after 9-11.

Here is a hilarious bit of hypocrisy about Gore's concern for his "carbon footprint"...from the New York Times

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/200...-spark-debate/


February 28, 2007, 9:08 am
An Inconveniently Easy Headline: Gore’s Electric Bills Spark Debate

By Tom Zeller Jr.

An obscure conservative group in Tennessee claims to be offering up the utility bills on Al Gore’s 10,000-square-foot Nashville mansion (wow!) as evidence that the former vice president doesn’t put his money where his mouth is on conservation.

Needless to say, the caterwaul on both sides of the fence is deafening — particularly in its overuse of cheeky variations on “An Inconvenient … Something.”

The group, the Tennessee Center for Policy Research, issued its statement a day after the film “An Inconvenient Truth,” which tracked Mr. Gore’s campaign to educate the world about the ravages of global warming, won an Academy Award for best documentary feature. By its count, Mr. Gore’s mansion “consumes more electricity every month than the average American household uses in an entire year,” the statement said.

But here is where the story gets a little blurry.

The group cited some ****ing kilowatt-consumption figures — 221,000 for the Gores in 2006, compared with the American average of 10,656, for instance — which, it said, were obtained from the Nashville Electric Service. It put the Gores’ average monthly electric bill at $1,359. Of course, those figures immediately rocketed through cyberspace. From Britain’s Guardian newspaper this morning:

By yesterday the news of Mr. Gore’s energy bills was flying around the Internet at a rate which, were the web petrol-powered, would have led to instant sea level rises. Conservative and libertarian bloggers, from Instapundit to Hot Air and Red State, luxuriated over the details, while progressive and liberal blogs led by the Huffington Post tried to discredit the report by describing it as a typical smear campaign. It had been timed for the Oscars, the Post’s blogger said, by a group that had no official status and had connections with right-wing groups funded by ExxonMobil.

The Associated Press, however, apparently asked a spokeswoman from the Nashville utility company, Laurie Parker, if the policy group had actually obtained the information from them, and she said the utility never got a request from the policy center and that no information was ever turned over to them.

So the A.P. decided to review the utility records itself, and came up with slightly different kilowatt consumption numbers: 191,000 for the Gores in 2006 — compared to a typical Nashville home of 15,500 kilowatts.
Reply

Gator
01-27-2008, 10:12 PM
Cog,
That law was for funding oppostion groups, not for use of US military intervention. Bringing that up to support any argument that any other president than Cheney/Bush would have invaded Iraq is incredibly weak, in my opinion.

Yes Gore would have had to do something...the right thing...invade Afghanistan, if he couldn't have gotten the Taliban to turn over osama. Using the appropriate amount of troops.

Thanks.
Reply

Cognescenti
01-27-2008, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
Cog,
That law was for funding oppostion groups, not for use of US military intervention. Bringing that up to support any argument that any other president than Cheney/Bush would have invaded Iraq is incredibly weak, in my opinion.

Yes Gore would have had to do something...the right thing...invade Afghanistan, if he couldn't have gotten the Taliban to turn over osama. Using the appropriate amount of troops.

Thanks.
The stated policy goal was: "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime."

I agree that it was not, of course, the intent of Congress that the law would be an authorization for war. Of course they meant it to apply to opposition groups. I am not arguing that, nor do I really suspect that Gore's hypothetical cabinet would have advocated war with Iraq. My point is that Bush was not the sole individual in the US Government to advocate the removal of Saddam. In fact, he was not even in government when the policy was adopted. Hussein himself would also be a wildcard. He might have pushed harder with Gore in office. Hard to know.

In any event, it is unequivocally true that Bush achieved the bolded portion of the policy :D
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