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john316
01-25-2008, 11:12 AM
I dont know if I'm allowed to do this but the following link containis a comparison of Jesus and Muhammad from a Muslim perspective. It is taken from the answering christianity website.
http://www.answering-christianity.co...d_compared.htm
Many of you Muslims must be familiar with it.
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*Hana*
01-25-2008, 11:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I dont know if I'm allowed to do this but the following link containis a comparison of Jesus and Muhammad from a Muslim perspective. It is taken from the answering christianity website.
http://www.answering-christianity.co...d_compared.htm
Many of you Muslims must be familiar with it.
What is your point in posting this? As Muslims we are very much aware of our perspective of Jesus, pbuh. However, our non-muslim friends are the ones that may not be aware, so please feel free to post it on non-muslims forums. :)

Peace,
Hana
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john316
01-25-2008, 11:33 AM
well i guess i posted it for your benefit. You might want to take a look at it. Are you familiar with that site?
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*Hana*
01-25-2008, 11:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
well i guess i posted it for your benefit. You might want to take a look at it. Are you familiar with that site?
LOL John, yes, we are familiar with that site, but we are far more familiar with our understanding of Jesus, pbuh.

You should understand that this site is in response to an Islam hate site and it may be in your best interest to search other wonderful Islamic learning sites that offer a ton of information about Islam. This forum and site is a great place to start and the site in my signature is another great place. There are many reputable sites and I do encourage you to visit them.

Learn for the sake of learning and not for reverting or whatever. Just be open minded and learn. You don't have to embrace anything. Nothing wrong with gaining knowledge and understanding. :)

Peace,
Hana
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john316
01-25-2008, 11:49 AM
no i am just curious so i dont think it is a reliable source then. in knowing abt Islam. glad to hear that. I dont think you claim all of it to be true. But one thing I dont understand is why would you try to demonize Jesus in this site saying that he is a child killer. Wasnt he a pious man according to Islam
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*Hana*
01-25-2008, 01:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
no i am just curious so i dont think it is a reliable source then. in knowing abt Islam. glad to hear that. I dont think you claim all of it to be true. But one thing I dont understand is why would you try to demonize Jesus in this site saying that he is a child killer. Wasnt he a pious man according to Islam
Huh??? We don't claim all of what to be true? And demonize Jesus?? ^o) I have no clue what you're talking about.
**UPDATE** Ok, now I know what you're referring to. I think you don't realize what you've read. It is NOT Islam portraying Jesus, pbuh, in this light. Those verses are from your Bible, NOT the Qur'an. I'm afraid you'll have to discuss that with the biblical scholars. In Islam we hold Jesus, pbuh, and all the chosen Prophets of God in the highest esteem. As Muslims we love and revere Prophet Jesus, pbuh and would never say such things. So, why the biblical writers would say something so vile is beyond my comprehension.

As far as whether or not that site is reliable, I can't make that call as it's not a site I use for resource or research. My point is that it is responding to an Islam hate site and it would be better for you to learn the basics of the Islamic faith before you jump in trying to understand points being refuted.

Peace,
Hana
Reply

Trumble
01-25-2008, 05:03 PM
Of course the site is 'unreliable' as a source of unbiased information. So is the "answering Islam" equivalent for exactly the same reason, both have a particular agenda and the content pushes that and not any other point of view. Note the word 'unbiased'; it's not so much that information presented is 'wrong' as the absence of the other side of any argument in anything but misrepresented or incomplete form.
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john316
01-25-2008, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Huh??? We don't claim all of what to be true? And demonize Jesus?? ^o) I have no clue what you're talking about.
**UPDATE** Ok, now I know what you're referring to. I think you don't realize what you've read. It is NOT Islam portraying Jesus, pbuh, in this light. Those verses are from your Bible, NOT the Qur'an. I'm afraid you'll have to discuss that with the biblical scholars. In Islam we hold Jesus, pbuh, and all the chosen Prophets of God in the highest esteem. As Muslims we love and revere Prophet Jesus, pbuh and would never say such things. So, why the biblical writers would say something so vile is beyond my comprehension.

As far as whether or not that site is reliable, I can't make that call as it's not a site I use for resource or research. My point is that it is responding to an Islam hate site and it would be better for you to learn the basics of the Islamic faith before you jump in trying to understand points being refuted.

Peace,
Hana
which verses are you talking about? It's from Revelations. In any case I appreciate your honesty. I have been to Islamic hae sites and I know that it has some of it's own biasis. This hate site is no different. I do not create Islam hate sites. and I dont want to. I am a defender of the Chrsitian faith and at the same time trying understand other faiths.
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anatolian
01-25-2008, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I dont know if I'm allowed to do this but the following link containis a comparison of Jesus and Muhammad from a Muslim perspective. It is taken from the answering christianity website.
http://www.answering-christianity.co...d_compared.htm
Many of you Muslims must be familiar with it.
Yes I find this an absurd way to tell christians the greatness of Muhammed aleyhissalam.
Reply

john316
01-25-2008, 06:28 PM
first of all in the Bible when something is said you have to consider who said it, when it was said, where it was said, how it was said, to whom it was said, and why it was said.
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MartyrX
01-25-2008, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
first of all in the Bible when something is said you have to consider who said it, when it was said, where it was said, how it was said, to whom it was said, and why it was said.
So what exactly are you saying? Is part of the bible made up or is all factual?
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Intisar
01-25-2008, 06:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Yes I find this an absurd way to tell christians the greatness of Muhammed salalallaahu aleyhiwassalam.

Fixed. :)

Question: Did any of the men who composed the bible actually live when Jesus (as) did?
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john316
01-25-2008, 06:39 PM
I am a Chrsitian so what do you expect me to believe.

And I dont understand why the scholars of Islam like Deedat, Dr Naik oick verses from the Bible and claim it;s not authoratative. Jesus said you are either hot or you are not. Being lukewarm doesnt even qualify us to be his diciple. So if the Bible is made up you either believe it or you dont. Some of the arguments from Deedat also takes verses out of context so it apparently looses it's meaning. The Bible is to be considered as a whole.
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john316
01-25-2008, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Fixed. :)

Question: Did any of the men who composed the bible actually live when Jesus (as) did?
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

That's just one verse.

I think 11 out of the 12 diciples(John was the exception) lost their lives for their professin on Christ.
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MartyrX
01-25-2008, 06:43 PM
Believe in what you want. I'm not here to force my beliefs on anyone. I don't understand your statement of the bible is to be taken as a whole but we have to consider who wrote it.
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john316
01-25-2008, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JeffX
Believe in what you want. I'm not here to force my beliefs on anyone. I don't understand your statement of the bible is to be taken as a whole but we have to consider who wrote it.

you can lokk back to the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. they match exactly the same as the old testament. the new testament has around 24000 old manuscripts. It doesnt contradict itself in any way only in minute details. where men wrote from different perpectives. But you have 40 different authors having the same testimony of Jesus Christ. All the 40 author validate each other.


The Quran has just one author.

Why would God give us just one man's testimony. Muhammad contradicted every prophet.
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MartyrX
01-25-2008, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
you can lokk back to the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. they match exactly the same as the old testament. the new testament has around 24000 old manuscripts. It doesnt contradict itself in any way only in minute details. where men wrote from different perpectives. But you have 40 different authors having the same testimony of Jesus Christ. All the 40 author validate each other.


The Quran has just one author.

Why would God give us just one man's testimony. Muhammad contradicted every prophet.
How?
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john316
01-25-2008, 07:01 PM
if not every prophet. more than any other prophet in the Bible. The other writers may contradict themselves on a few occassions.
First of all the you say satan is some jinn or whoever. who disobeyed God because he didnt want to prostrate before Adam. Well I dont know how you interpret that. But everywhere in scripture it says satan was the highest angel who fell because of his pride. Is not mentioned in the Hadith or somewhere that your prophet said it takes so many lies to make you liar. Correct me if I'm wrong. Frm a human perpective yea it makes sense. From God's perpective it takes just one lie to be a liar. God cannot lie. You think God tells one lie.
Reply

Intisar
01-25-2008, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

That's just one verse.

I think 11 out of the 12 diciples(John was the exception) lost their lives for their professin on Christ.
That doesn't answer my question. :)

format_quote Originally Posted by john316
The Quran has just one author.
Allaah subhana wa ta'ala. It's just logic.
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john316
01-25-2008, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

That's just one verse.

I think 11 out of the 12 diciples(John was the exception) lost their lives for their professin on Christ.
Oh i'm sorry i over read your question.

Matthew, John, James, Peter, Jude.
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جوري
01-25-2008, 10:30 PM
thought you'd get a kick out of your fellow christian's perspective..

cheers
The Bible Led Me to Islam

Abdul Malik LeBlanc tells how he discovered Islam within the pages of Bible

Source: International Edition Voice of Islam - November 1998, Page 25

During my Christian days there were many verses in the Bible that made me question the religion I was following (Christianity). There was one particular verse, 1 Thessalonians 5:17 which says; "pray without ceasing," that lingered heavily in my mind. I often wondered how a person (Christian) was supposed to pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing? Without any biblical or divine guidance, the only way I thought this to be possible was to always do good deeds and keep the remembrance of God on my tongue and in my heart.

However, I found this to be impossible to do as a human being. But when I was introduced to Islam in 1987, and began to read and learn more about this way of life, I found that Islam provided divine guidance both from God (Allah) and Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by which a person could pray (be in a state of worship) without ceasing, if it was the Will of God.

Whether waking up, eating, sleeping, putting on clothes, being in the presence of a woman, looking at a woman, going shopping, going to the bathroom, looking in the mirror, traveling, visiting the sick, sitting in a non-religious meeting, taking a bath, having sexual intercourse with one’s wife, yawning, cutting you nails, sneezing, greeting people, talking, hosting guests at home, walking, exercising, fighting, entering one’s house, praying and many other acts, Islam and the guidance therein of the Quran, and the acts and sayings of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), provided ways in which I could observe 1 Thessalonians 5:17. In addition, it allowed me to be at peace with myself and in submission to the one True God - Allah (SWT).

This divine guidance of Islam taught me greatly about my duties, responsibilities and birthright to my Creator (Allah), and more about the religion of Christianity as a Muslim, I [By the Will of Allah (SWT)] felt it necessary to share with you how the Bible led me to Islam.

Christianity

Given the fact that there has never been in the history of the Torah (Old Testament) the religion of God to be named after a Prophet (i.e. Adaminity, Abrahamity, Mosanity, etc.), I hope to explain that Jesus did not preach the religion of Christianity, but a religion that gives all Praise and Worship to The One God.

One of the questions I asked myself as I took an objective (second) look at Christianity was; where did the word Christianity come from and was the word ever mentioned to Jesus? Well, I did not find the word Christianity in the Bible, not even in a Bible dictionary. Specifically, I did not find in the Bible where Jesus called himself a Christian.

The word Christian was first mentioned by a pagan to describe those who followed Jesus. It is mentioned one of three times in the New Testament by a pagan and Jew in Antioch about 43 AD, (Acts 11:26, Acts 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16) long after Jesus left this earth. To accept the words of pagans as having any value or association with divinity, Jesus or God is contrary to the teachings of all Prophets.

Jesus prophesied that people would worship him uselessly and believe in doctrines made by men (Matthew 15:9).

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." This verse, Matthew 15:9, is further supported by these words of the Quran:

"And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you say unto men: "Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?" He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower o fall that is hidden and unseen.

Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world)." (Al-Ma’idah 5:116-117)

I found that Biblical verses like John 5:30, John 12:49, John 14:28, Isaiah 42:8 and Acts 2:22 support the above mentioned verses of the Quran.

Before leaving the subject of Christianity, I should mention one small point of observation. If Christians are Christ-like, why are they not greeting each other with the words; Peace be with you (Salamu Alaikum), as Jesus did in Luke 24:36. As you may be aware, the greeting from one Muslim to another Muslim is Assalamu Alaikum; a Christ-like saying.

Various Holy Bibles
It is worth mentioning that the Bible references cited might not be exactly as the Bible you are using. There are MANY Bibles on the market that are used by different Christian sects and all of these sects say that their book, though different, is the word of God. Such Bibles are: The Revised Standard Version 1952 & 1971, New American Standard Bible, The Holy Bible; New International Version, the Living Bible, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures used by Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholic Version and the King James Version. A special note: I have not found in any of these Bibles where the "New Testament" calls itself the "New Testament," and nowhere does the "Old Testament" call itself the "Old? Testament." Also, the word "Bible" is unknown within the pages of the Bible.

In addition to the many different Christian sects and Bibles, I have learned that there are also different men, not Prophets, who founded these sects and are using various interpretations of the Bible and/or man-made doctrines as their creed.

I would like to share with you some thoughts that you may not have read or known about the Bible being the word of God. Briefly, let me mention that on September 8, 1957, the Jehovah’s witnesses in their "Awake" magazine carried this startling headline - 50,000 Errors in the Bible. If you ask a Jehovah’s witness about this headline, it may be said that today most of those errors have been eliminated. How many have been eliminated, 5,000? Even if 50 remain, would one attribute those errors to God?

Let me pose another question: if a "Holy" book contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. Let me share with you some conflicting verses both in the Old and New Testaments:

II Samuel 8:4 (vs)
II Samuel 8:9-10
II Kings 8:26

II Samuel 6:23
Genesis 6:3
John 5:37

John 5:31
I Chronicles 18:4
I Chronicles 18:9-10

II Chronicles 22:2
II Samuel 21:8
Genesis 9:29

John 14:9
John 8:14



Only two contradictions of the New Testament have been mentioned, but others will be referenced when the Trinity, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Original Sin and Atonement are reviewed.

How could the "inspired words" of God get the genealogy of Jesus incorrect (See Matthew 1:6-16 where it states 26 forefathers up to Prophet David, and Luke 3:23-31 says 41 in number). Or for that matter, give a genealogy to Jesus who had NO father? See II Kings 19:1-37, now read Isaiah 37:1-38. Why is it that the words of these verse are identical? Yet they have been attributed to two different authors, one unknown and the other is Isaiah, who are centuries apart; and yet, the Christians have claimed these books to be inspired by God.

I looked up the word Easter in the Nelson Bible dictionary and learned that the word "Easter" (as mentioned in Acts 12:4) is a mistranslation of "pascha," the ordinary Greek word for "Passover." As, you know Passover is a Jewish celebration not a Christian holiday. I think human hands, all to human, had played havoc with the Bible.

From the brief points mentioned above, and the fact that Biblical scholars themselves have recognized the human nature and human composition of the Bible (Curt Kuhl, The Old Testament: Its Origin and Composition, PP 47, 51, 52), there should exist in the Christian’s mind some acceptance to the fact that maybe every word of the Bible is not God’s word.

As a side note to this subject, let me mention that some Christians believe that the Bible was dictated to Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by a Christian monk, and that is why some of the biblical accounts are in the Quran. After some research, I found that this could not have happened because there were no Arabic Bible in existence in the 6th century of the Christian era when Muhammad (SAW) lived and preached. Therefore, no Arab, not even Prophet Muhammad (SAW) who was absolutely unlettered and unlearned, would have had the opportunity to examine the written text of the Bible in his own language.

The Gospels

If you read Luke 1:2-3, you will learn, as I did, that Luke (who was not one of the 12 disciples and never met Jesus) said that he himself was not an eyewitness, and the knowledge he gathered was from eyewitnesses, and not as words inspired by God. Incidentally, why does every "Gospel" begin with the introduction According to. Why "according to?" the reason for this is because not a single one of the gospels carries its original author’s autograph! Even the internal evidence of Matthew 9:9 proves that Matthew was not the author of the first Gospel which bears his name:

"And as Jesus passed forth thence, He (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and He (Jesus) saith unto Him (Matthew), follow me (Jesus). And he (Matthew) arose, and followed Him (Jesus)."

Without any stretch of the imagination, one can see that the He’s and the Him’s of the above narration do not refer to Jesus or Matthew as its author, but a third person writing what he saw or heard - a hearsay account and not words inspired by God.

It is worth noting, and well known throughout the religious world, that the choice of the present four "gospels" of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were imposed in the Council of Nicea 325 CE for political purposes under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus. Constantine’s mind had not been enlightened either by study or by inspiration. He was a pagan, a tyrant and criminal who murdered his son, his wife and thousands of innocent individuals because of his lust for political power. Constantine ratified other decisions in the Nicene Creed such as the decision to call Christ "the Son of God, only begotten of the father."

Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were hidden from the people. Some of those writings were written by Jesus’ disciples, and many of them were eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ actions. The Nicea Council decided to destroy all gospels written in Hebrew, which resulted in the burning of nearly three hundred accounts. If these writings were not more authentic than the four present gospels, they were of equal authenticity. Some of them are still available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Quran. The Gospel of Barnabas, until now, is the only eyewitness account of the life and mission of Jesus. Even today, the whole of the Protestant word, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and other sects and denominations condemn the Roman Catholic version of the Bible because it contains seven "extra" books. The Protestant have bravely expunged seven whole books from their word of God. A few of the outcasts are the Books of Judith, Tobnias, Baruch and Esther.

Concerning Jesus’ teachings of the Gospel (Injeel), the Gospel writers frequently mentioned Jesus preaching the Gospel: Matthew 9:35, Mark 8:35, and Luke 20:1. The word "gospel" is recurrently used in the Bible. However, in the New Testament Greek edition the word Evangeline is used in place of the word gospel, which is translated to mean good news. My question was: what Gospel did Jesus preach? Of the 27 books of the New Testament, only a small fraction can be accepted as the words of Jesus, and only of the 27 books are known to be attributed as the Gospel of Jesus. The remaining 23 were supposedly written by Paul. Muslims do believe that Jesus was given God’s "Good News." However, they do not recognized the present four Gospels as the utterances of Jesus.

The earliest Gospel is that of Mark’s which was written about 60-75 AD. Mark was the son of Barnabas’s sister. Matthew was a tax collector, a minor official who did not travel around with Jesus. Luke’s Gospel was written much later, and in fact, drawn from the same sources as Mark’s and Matthew’s. Luke was Paul’s physician, and like Paul, never met Jesus. By the way, did you know that the names Marks and Luke were not included in the 12 appointed disciples of Jesus as mentioned in Matthew 10:2-4?

Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; the first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

John’s Gospel is from a different source, and was written in about 100 AD. He (John) should not be confused with John, the disciple, who was beheaded by Agrippa I in the year 44 CE long before this gospel was written. It should be accepted as a reliable account of the life of Jesus, and whether it should be included in the scriptures.

Christians, as I once did, boast about the Gospels according to Matthew, according to Mark, according to Luke and according to John. However, if we think about it, there is not a single Gospel according to Jesus himself. According to the preface of the KJV (King James Version) new open Bible study edition, the word "Gospel" was added (see below) to the original titles, "According to John, according to Matthew, according to Luke and according to Mark."

The permission to call "According to" writings the Gospel was not given by Jesus nor by any other divine guidance. These writings; Matthew, Luke, Mark and John, were never originally to be the Gospel. Therefore, Mark 1:1 can not be a true statement that his writing is the gospel of Jesus.

It should be mentioned that Muslims must believe in all Divine scriptures in their original form, their Prophets and making no distinction between them: The Suhuf (Abraham); Torah (Moses); Psalms (David); Gospel - or the Injeel (Jesus); and the Quran (Muhammad). It is clearly stated in the Quran 3:3 that Allah sent down the Torah and the Gospel. However, none of these scriptures remains in its original form now, except the Quran, which was sent for all mankind everywhere and for all times.

In addition to other reasons why the Quran was sent to mankind, as mentioned in 18:4-5 it was sent to warn the Christians of a terrible punishment from God if they cease not in saying: "Allah has begotten a son."

Muslims sincerely believe that everything Jesus (May the peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) preached was from God; the Gospel (Injeel): The "good news" and the guidance of God for the Children of Israel. There is no place mentioned in the present four Gospels that Jesus wrote a single word of his Gospel, nor is it mentioned that Jesus instructed anyone to do so. What passes off, as the "Gospels" today are the works of third party human hands. The Quran 2:79 says:
"And woe to those who write the book with their own hands and they say: "This is from Allah (God)." To traffic with it for a miserable price! So woe to them for what their hands do write, and woe to them for what they earn thereby!"

Jesus As the Son of God
Is Jesus the Son of God? Matthew 3:17 could be used by some Christians to support the divine Sonship of Jesus. If Matthew 3:17, "And Lo a voice for heaven, saying, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased," is used to support divine Sonship, then there should be no other verse that contradicts or gives equal divine Sonship to another person or persons in the Old or New Testament. However, many references were found in the Old and New Testaments that mentioned someone other than Jesus as having a divine Sonship to God. See Exodus 4:22:

"Israel is my son, even my firstborn." II Samuel 7:14 and I Chronicles 22:10: "...and he shall be my son (Solomon)." Jeremiah 31:9: "...and Ephraim is my firstborn." Also, Psalm 2:7.

The word "Son" must not be accepted literally because God addresses many of his chosen servants as son and sons. The Jews have also claimed Ezra to be the Son of God. The New Testament Greek words used for "son" (pias and paida, which mean servant or son in the sense of servant) are translated as son in reference to Jesus and as servant in reference to others in some translations of the Bible.

Further, the term "Father" as used by Jesus corresponds more closely to the term Rabb, i.e. One who nourishes and sustains, so that in Jesus’ doctrine, God is "Father" – Nourisher and Sustainer – of all men. The New Testament also interprets "son of God" to be mystical: "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8:14). This mystical suggestion is further supported with Jesus being called the only begotten Son of God.

In Psalm 2:7, the Lord said to David:

"...Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee."

Does this mean that God had two sons? Jesus also said that God is not only his Father but also your Father (Matthew 5:45, 48). Luke 3:38 says:

"...Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the Son of God."

Who is mentioned in Hebrews 7:3 as like unto the Son of God? It is Melchisedec, King of Salem, as mentioned in Hebrews 7:1. He (Melchisedec) is more unique than Jesus or Adam. Why is he not preferred to be the Son of God? Moreover, Adam did not have a mother or father, but was the first human being created by God and in the likeness of God to exist in the Garden of Eden and on earth. Wouldn’t this give more rights to Adam to be called the Son of God in its truest meaning?

I would like to share with you an obvious contradiction between John 3:16, Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:16-17. John 3:16 reads:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten, Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Now let’s read Luke 10:25-28:

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, what is written in the law? How readest Thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and Thou shalt live.

These verses tell us that the inheritance of eternal life is for anyone who believes and worships no other God, but the One True God. Luke 10:25-28 agrees with Matthew 19:16-17 which says;

"And behold, one came and said to him (Jesus), Good teacher, what good things shall I do that I may have eternal life? So he (Jesus) said to him, ‘Why do you call me good? – No one is good but One that is, God. But if you want to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

There is no commandment that says to worship Jesus, but there that tells us to worship God alone.

In Luke 4:41, Jesus refused to be called the Son of God by demons. Do you think that Jesus would rebuke the demons, or anyone else for that matter, for telling the truth? Unquestionably, no! Jesus rebuked the demons because they were saying something false by calling him the Son of God. Also, if the demons knew that Jesus was the Christ, for Jesus to shut them up because they called him the Christ is a contradiction to Jesus’ mission.

In Luke 9:20 & 21, Jesus said unto his disciples:

"But who say ye that I am? Peter answered saying, "The Christ of God, and Jesus straightly charged them and commanded them to tell no man that thing."

Furthermore, verses like John 3:2, John 6:14, John 7:40, Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16 and 24:19 confirm that Jesus accepted the title of teacher, Prophet and called himself the son of man in Matthew 8:20, 12:40, 17:9 & 12, 26:24, Luke 9:26, 22:48, 22:69, and 24:7. The most conclusive verse that says Jesus is the son (servant) of man is Mark 14:26 where Jesus is mentioning the Day of Reckoning. Jesus specifically said we would see the son of man, not the Son of God, sitting in the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The act of begetting is a physical act and such act is against God’s nature. The Qur’an 19:35 says:


"It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is." (Maryam 19:35)

The teachings of Jesus as the Son of God were not preached by Jesus nor accepted by Jesus, but were taught by Paul as supported in Acts 9:20:

"And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."

Did Jesus ever claim to be God or say, "Here am I, your God, worship me"? The answer is no. For there is no single, unequivocal statement in the Bible whereby Jesus himself declares, "I am God, therefore worship me." Virtually all of the more than two thousand verses of the epistles of Paul are his own fabrications to include Romans 9:5 that says, depending upon which Bible you read:

"...Christ came, who is overall, the eternally blessed God."

Christians should know that Paul himself mentions his own gospel, not Jesus, in his epistle to the Romans when he says in Romans 2:16:

"In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

In face, the Pauline epistle to the Romans serves as the foundation of today’s Christianity. Thus, it is the Christians whose efforts will be wasted in this life as they think they were acquiring good by their works when they attribute partners to God, as stated in Chapter 18:103-106 of the Qur’an:


"Say: Shall we tell you of those who lost most in respect of their deeds? Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?" they are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter): vain will be their works, nor shall We, on the Day of judgment, give them any weight. That is their reward, Hell; because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
(Al-Kahf 18:103-106)

Indeed, it is so strange and ironic, knowing that none of Paul’s epistle to the Romans, more than 430 verses, were ever formulated by Jesus. Paul should have made direct reference to the pristine teachings of Jesus, if only the former claim for apostleship by divine inspiration was indeed true. Instead, large parts of his epistles’ Biblical quotations (notably those in the Epistle to the Romans) were taken from the Old Testament – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea. His epistles were, indeed a product of tedious efforts, but that does not make Paul far better than any of the other men who authored the Bible, nor does it make him a Prophet.

Other practices that were adopted under Paul included the following: the Roman sun-day as the Christian Sabbath; the traditional birthday of the Sun-god as the birthday of Jesus; the emblem of the sun-god (the cross of light) to be the emblem of Christians; and, the incorporation of all the ceremonies which were performed at the Sun-god’s birthday celebrations.

As I come to a close concerning the position of Christ, I would like to ask my Christian reader bow down and pray earnestly to God and ask Him to invoke His curse on you, your wife, your sons, and your daughters if what you believe about Christ (Christ is God, Son of God or part of a trinity of God) are false. Likewise, I have learned that if you asked a Muslim to earnestly pray to God to invoke His curse on him, his wife, his sons, and his daughters if what he is saying about Christ (Prophet, Messenger of God, A Word from God) are false, the Muslims are firm in their faith knowing that Christ is not God, nor the Son of God and nor part of a trinity of God. This exercise of asking God to invoke His curse on you and your family may sound a bit cruel, but it would prove two points: (1) you would know that you are on the wrong path; and, (2) it would put you on the right path.

The Crucifixion and Atonement
A very significant event in the Christian doctrine is the Crucifixion of Jesus. Before talking about the many controversies surrounding the Crucifixion, it should be mentioned that it was a gospel of Paul’s which professed the Crucifixion/Resurrection of Jesus (II Timothy 2:8):

"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."

In addition, the gospel of the resurrection in Mark 16:9-20 was already removed from the text by gospel writers in the 1952 edition of the Revised Standard Version and then, for some reasons, restored in the 1971 edition. In many Bibles, if not removed, it is printed in small print or between two brackets and with commentary (See the Revised Standard Version, New American Bible and New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures).

The traditional biblical account of Jesus’ Crucifixion is that he was arrested and crucified by the orders and plans of the chief priest and Jewish elders. This account was denied in the 1960’s by the highest Catholic Christian authority, the Pope. He issued a statement in which he said the Jews had nothing to do with Jesus’ Crucifixion.

Did any one of the disciples or the writers of the Gospel see the Crucifixion or the Resurrection? No! In Mark 14:50, it says the disciples forsook Jesus and fled. Even Peter forsook Jesus after the cock crowed three times as Jesus foretold:

(Matthew 26:75) And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

The most likely persons whom may have witnessed this moment in Jesus’ life were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, the mother of Zebedee’s children and other women (Matthew 27:55-56). However, there is no statement or account in the Gospels from those women as to what they saw or heard.

The disciple(s) found the sepulchre where Jesus was laid down, empty, and made the conclusion that he was resurrected because the disciples and other witnesses saw him alive after the alleged Crucifixion. Nobody saw the moment he was resurrected. Jesus himself stated that he did not die on the cross in Luke 24:36-41, as explained in the following paragraphs.

Early Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene went to the sepulchre, which was empty. She saw somebody standing who looked like a gardener. She recognized him after a conversation to be Jesus and wanted to touch him. Jesus said (John 20:17):

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father..."

Now read Luke 24:36-41:

"And as they (disciples) thus spoke, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are you troubled? And why so thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me end see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of boiled fish and of a honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."

Does a spiritual or dead body have a need to eat food? Jesus eating of food was to prove to the disciples that he was not a spirit, but rather, he was still alive and not dead.

Jesus being alive and not dead is further supported in his own prophecy (Matthew 12:40):

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Did Jesus fulfill this miracle? Christians would say "yes," because Jesus died and rose three days later according to Luke 24:36 and Matthew 20:19, to name a few verses. However, in line with the miracle of Jonah and according to the Bible, Jesus only spent one day and two nights in the sepulchre, and not three days and three nights as he prophesied.

Jesus was put in the sepulchre just before sunset on Friday (Good Friday) and was found missing before sunrise on Sunday (Easter). If we were to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the time frame a bit, one may say that Jesus spent three days in the earth, but there is no way and I repeat, no way, that Jesus spent three nights in the earth. We must not forget that the Gospels are explicit in telling us that it was "before sunrise" on Sunday morning that Mary Magdalene went to the tomb of Jesus and found it empty.

Consequently, there are some inconsistencies as to whether Jesus fulfilled his own prophecy. Whether he was actually crucified, or if the day (Good Friday) of his alleged Crucifixion is wrong. Another significant point to mention is that Jonah was alive in the belly of the whale. The Christians says, Jesus was dead in the belly of the earth/tomb, and this contradicts Jesus’ own prophecy. Jesus said (Luke 11:30):

"As Jonah was...so shall the Son of man be."

If Jonah was alive, so was Jesus.

One critical event that took place before the alleged Crucifixion was the prayer of Jesus to God for help. Luke 22:42:

"Saying Father if thou be willing, remove this cup (of death) from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done."

Jesus’ prayer not to die on the cross was accepted by God according to Luke 22:43 and Hebrews 5:7. Therefore, if all of Jesus’ prayer were accepted by God, including not to die on the cross, how could he have died on the cross?

In Matthew 27:46, it states that while Jesus was on the cross, he said:

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?).

If Jesus said these words, it represents a blatant declaration of disbelief according to all theological authorities. This is a great insult as such words could only come from an unbeliever in God. Further, it is incredible that such words should come from a Prophet of God, because God never breaks His promise and His Prophets never complained against His promise, especially when the Prophet’s mission is understood. It could be said that whoever relates that this statement was said by a Prophet (Jesus), is a disbeliever.

Muslims believe, as the Qur’an states, Jesus was not crucified. It was the intention of his enemies to put him to death on the cross, but Allah saved him from their plot. Qur’an 4:157:

"That they (Jews) said boasting, "We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, but they (Jews) killed him not, nor crucified him..."

(An Nisa 4:157)
Reply

john316
01-26-2008, 03:49 AM
I'm sorry to say. I have listened to most of those arguments before. I believe that I can give you an answer to every one of those arguments. So you still havent convinced me yet. If incase you didnt know I believee in the version that contains the whole Hebrew Bible and the 27 canonised books of the NT. Altogether 66 books by 40 different authors. It doesnt take Intelllect to know who God is. But Spiritual Wisdom which supercedes man's wisdom.
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جوري
01-26-2008, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I'm sorry to say. I have listened to most of those arguments before.
Why does that merit a sorry?

I believe that I can give you an answer to every one of those arguments. So you still havent convinced me yet.
I don't/won't care for excuses or plastered compositions.. further I have no interest in convincing you of anything. I'd like to believe you are here on your own discretion and not at gun point?!

If incase you didnt know I believee in the version that contains the whole Hebrew Bible and the 27 canonised books of the NT. Altogether 66 books by 40 different authors.
This concerns me how?

It doesnt take Intelllect to know who God is. But Spiritual Wisdom which supercedes man's wisdom.
I couldn't agree more.....

cheers
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john316
01-26-2008, 04:23 AM
well I am just here to share my beliefs in what I believe to be true. First and foremost you have to consider the whole Bible and not just bits and pieces of it. Not that I know the whole thing and knowing the whole thing aint critical to my salvation. The day I made Jesus my Lord and Savior, I believe the wisdom was implanted within me. Well I am going to use the Bible itself. the 66 books to show you what I believe. and not any outside source like the Quran or other apocryphal books .
Well it's a big post so please give me some time to analyse them. Well my point is not to show you that the Bible is God's word but only to show that it's more trustworthy.
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جوري
01-26-2008, 04:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
well I am just here to share my beliefs in what I believe to be true.
ok.. I believe the operative word here is what 'you believe', others don't share your views, I'd think you'd be most concerned with the Jews, I mean they have totally missed the boat!

First and foremost you have to consider the whole Bible and not just bits and pieces of it.
The bible is nonsensical to me.. parts of it are nice, but sometimes it reads like a porn novel, the other time it is discrepant, and God appears very confused in it!

Not that I know the whole thing and knowing the whole thing aint critical to my salvation.
I'd worry about your salavtion then and focus on that before I extend myself to others and telling them their beliefs are false!


The day I made Jesus my Lord and Savior, I believe the wisdom was implanted within me.
Yup... our dear member Alapiana http://www.islamicboard.com/members/...na1-11724.html
shared your widom for many many pages.. trust me, nothing you'll chuck here will be earth shattering, we've read/seen it all before!

Well I am going to use the Bible itself. the 66 books to show you what I believe. and not any outside source like the Quran or other apocryphal books .
as sweet as that is, no one is interested, many here are reverts, many others attended parochial schools, attended theology courses.. people are what they are after hard work and reflection and critical analysis, not because you 'believe' you have found wisdom...


Well it's a big post so please give me some time to analyse them. Well my point is not to show you that the Bible is God's word but only to show that it's more trustworthy.
More trust worthy than what? Do you honestly think after reading the Quran, someone would go back to the bible? Again I pose the question, would you go follow the Torah now that you have your bible? think deep and hard about that.. to be frank, Judasim is more in concert with a religion than Christianity, which is in its entirety grossly irreverent to all that should be held sacred. From the rituals to the idolatry to the preservation and application of it nonsensical.... but I do wish you peace and contentment on the path of your choice.......
cheers
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Woodrow
01-26-2008, 05:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I dont know if I'm allowed to do this but the following link containis a comparison of Jesus and Muhammad from a Muslim perspective. It is taken from the answering christianity website.
http://www.answering-christianity.co...d_compared.htm
Many of you Muslims must be familiar with it.
Probably most of us are familiar of that site. But, I doubt if many use it for much more than idle curiosity. Personally, I believe it is in poor taste and it is an error for people of one religion to think that by proving somebody wrong means they are right by default.

Also the reality of life is, it is impossible to proof anything is wrong. the burden is to prove what is true.

I believe you are going to be a litle surprised at just how familiar most of us are with the Bible. I'm familiar with it in more then one language and do have several Bibles in the house. I have read and studied it more than just several times and at one time truly believed it was the word of God(swt). At one time I believed Jesus(as) was my savior and that it was only through him could I reach the Father.

In many ways I do credit Jesus(as) to having led me to the Qur'an and to God(swt). I have been reborn into the truth and have been set free from what once led me astray.
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sur
01-26-2008, 07:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I am a Chrsitian so what do you expect me to believe.

And I dont understand why the scholars of Islam like Deedat, Dr Naik oick verses from the Bible and claim it;s not authoratative. Jesus said you are either hot or you are not. Being lukewarm doesnt even qualify us to be his diciple. So if the Bible is made up you either believe it or you dont. Some of the arguments from Deedat also takes verses out of context so it apparently looses it's meaning. The Bible is to be considered as a whole.
We Muslims believe in scriptures given to previous Prophets, BUT we also believe that those scriptures have NOT been protected in perfect form & there have been Omissions/Addisions/Alterations.

So we cross-check bible(OT, NT) with Quran & Hadiees.

If anything goes against Quran & Hadees, we take it as human alteration that made it's way into scriptures.


So Deedat & Zakir Naik refer to what goes with Quran & point out human alterations by giving proof from bible itself.
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syed saboor
01-26-2008, 10:17 AM
I will answer Christianity in a few words: Jewish concoction. A religion fused in the mind of corrupt Jews with the intent and purpose of destroying civilization. For further reference, check out an article written by Savitri Devi on this subject.
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Fishman
01-26-2008, 10:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
I will answer Christianity in a few words: Jewish concoction. A religion fused in the mind of corrupt Jews with the intent and purpose of destroying civilization. For further reference, check out an article written by Savitri Devi on this subject.
:sl:
Oh, those evil Jews, always spoiling everything and trying to ruin things even when they have no benefit from doing so...:skeleton:

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YusufNoor
01-26-2008, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
you can lokk back to the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. they match exactly the same as the old testament. the new testament has around 24000 old manuscripts. It doesnt contradict itself in any way only in minute details. where men wrote from different perpectives. But you have 40 different authors having the same testimony of Jesus Christ. All the 40 author validate each other.


The Quran has just one author.

Why would God give us just one man's testimony. the Qur'an is NOT "one man's testimony", it is the revealed word of the LORD God Almighty! so it has the BEST author, the Author of Life itself!


Muhammad contradicted every prophet. see below
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

here's a little excerpt of a previous post:
the VAST MAJORITY of Prophets that we have knowledge of ALL descendants of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam, and are now generally[though not always correctly] called Jews. so if we want to determine what "their" message was, Jewish sources would be pretty reliable. here's a snippet from Rabbi Nosson Scherman in his "An Overview/ Ezra - Molder of a New Era" which serves as an introduction to The Book Ezra / A New Translation With A Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic And Rabbinic Sources with Translation and Commentary by Rabbi Yosef Rabinowitz:

The First Temple and the Jewish nation - both the Ten Tribes of Samaria and the Kingdom of Judah - had crumbled spiritually because of the sin of idolatry. ALL THE PROPHETS FROM MOSES ONWARD HAD WARNED ELOQUENTLY AND STRENUOUSLY ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF THIS CARDINAL SIN. Nevertheless, Israel succumbed, with the result that it was banished from it land and nearly destroyed as a people.
...why should there have been such an obsessive passion for [idolatry] that even the Prophets were ignored and murdered in the people's headlong passion to choose strange gods and pagan ceremonies over the ONE GOD and His Torah?
(emphasis mine)

so, the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!! AND this message is for ALL TIMES!! which by the way is :one single proof of existence of islam before Muhammed's times."

to recap: ALL THE PROPHETS FROM MOSES ONWARD HAD WARNED ELOQUENTLY AND STRENUOUSLY ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF [IDOLATRY] thus the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!!

now, YOU WROTE:

Well I am going to use the Bible itself. the 66 books to show you what I believe
So i ask, show me which of the Prophets in the Tanakh came to Israel and said, "I am God, worship me!" Take your time and look. We'll wait...

:w:
Reply

*Hana*
01-26-2008, 03:31 PM
you can lokk back to the discovery of the dead sea scrolls. they match exactly the same as the old testament. the new testament has around 24000 old manuscripts. It doesnt contradict itself in any way only in minute details. where men wrote from different perpectives. But you have 40 different authors having the same testimony of Jesus Christ. All the 40 author validate each other
You have to remember that no original manuscripts exist. There is probably not one book that reads anything like its original. You mention the Dead Sea Scrolls and the oldest manuscripts, but you neglect to mention there are hundreds of differences between the oldest manuscripts of any one book, as well as no 2 "oldest manuscripts" are exactly alike. These differences make it obvious that numerous additions and alterations, were made to the originals by different authors, editors, translators and copyists. In some cases this was due to error but in some it was intentional.

Most biblical authors are unknown. The names were chosen by religious men of the time and not by the author. The four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are perfect examples of this. These names were given long after these four books were written. Biblical scholars are now almost unanimously agreed that none of these authors was a disciple of Jesus nor even an eyewitness to his teachings.

How can you claim all 40 authors validate each other, when they clearly do not. Paul's writings are completely different, and in some cases, completely opposite, to the ministry of Jesus. There are errors you claim are minute and is due to different perceptions. Have you ever asked yourself what would happen if Paul's perception was the one that differed? Considering a lot of his writings are completely different and stand alone...your entire salvation is also in question.

John, even your nic is in question. John 3:16, as it is written in the KJV and NJKV is not how it was written in the oldest known manuscripts and has been corrected in almost all modern versions of the Bible.

Take the blinders off, John, and learn with an open mind. Don't blindly follow. It doesn't mean you will lose your faith or even change it...but at the very least it will give you a better understanding of exactly what it is you are following.

As a former Christian, I know it's not an easy task and I remember how difficult it was. I was angry, very angry but because of my desire for truth, I studied the scripture and it led me directly to Islam. I questioned scripture since I was a little kid, but no one could or would answer and many times I would get in trouble for asking because "my faith wasn't strong enough". Strangely my faith was VERY strong, I was simply looking for clarification to have a better understanding. Much later I started reading about this "Islam" and within 5 minutes I was shocked to realize this was what I had always believed! Did I immediately revert? Absolutely not. It took about 3 more years of study and trying desperately to hold on to the faith I grew up with, the faith I dedicated a large portion of my life to. But, Alhamdulillah, in the end, I was guided to the truth of Islam. :)

So, be open enough to take a closer look and human enough to admit when you don't know or understand why something is the way it is.

We are not God to know everything, but He gave us the mind and the ability to use logic...use it. :)

As a side note Deedat and Naik only claim the way the bible is TODAY is not authoritative, but in its original form is the truth. Some of that truth still remains in pages of the Bible which is why Muslims are suppose to respect it. Of course, the determination of where it is accurate is in the places where it agrees with the Qur'an.

With peace,
Hana
Reply

john316
01-26-2008, 06:29 PM
Can I ask any one of you why you were Christians? First of all I do not expect people to think exactly the way I do. And I do not believe in any organised religion as such. but a relationship with God. as most Christians may believe. I do not believe God is weak enough to get his word distorted by men. And idolatory is has a whole different meaning.

to be continued...........
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snakelegs
01-26-2008, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by syed saboor
I will answer Christianity in a few words: Jewish concoction. A religion fused in the mind of corrupt Jews with the intent and purpose of destroying civilization. For further reference, check out an article written by Savitri Devi on this subject.
what a brilliant and insightful post! thank you for enlightening me!
i guess that explains why christians spent so much of their time and energy slaughtering jews century after century.
and here i thought christianity was foreign to the semitic world!
only on islamicboard....




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glo
01-26-2008, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
no i am just curious so i dont think it is a reliable source then. in knowing abt Islam. glad to hear that. I dont think you claim all of it to be true. But one thing I dont understand is why would you try to demonize Jesus in this site saying that he is a child killer. Wasnt he a pious man according to Islam
I would like to return to this point John is making.

The website he has posted a link to seems to compare Muhammed's bahaviour with Jesus' - thereby indeed seeming to demonise Jesus as a man who did not care for his fellow man, did not respect Gentiles, promoted the killing of children ... :ooh:

Surely this is not how Islam sees Jesus??! :-[
I always thought he was seen as a highly respected and revered prophet in Islam.
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
I find it quite upsetting ... :cry:

Peace
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wilberhum
01-26-2008, 08:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I would like to return to this point John is making.

The website he has posted a link to seems to compare Muhammed's bahaviour with Jesus' - thereby indeed seeming to demonise Jesus as a man who did not care for his fellow man, did not respect Gentiles, promoted the killing of children ... :ooh:

Surely this is not how Islam sees Jesus??! :-[
I always thought he was seen as a highly respected and revered prophet in Islam.
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
I find it quite upsetting ... :cry:

Peace
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
Because first and for most it is a hate sight.
It is just the flip side of Answering Islam.
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جوري
01-26-2008, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I would like to return to this point John is making.

The website he has posted a link to seems to compare Muhammed's bahaviour with Jesus' - thereby indeed seeming to demonise Jesus as a man who did not care for his fellow man, did not respect Gentiles, promoted the killing of children ... :ooh:

Surely this is not how Islam sees Jesus??! :-[
I always thought he was seen as a highly respected and revered prophet in Islam.
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
I find it quite upsetting ... :cry:

Peace

I believe the site is simply quoting from the bible, the way the same counter site does against Islam..
I mean that is how both make their points correct?
they take excerpts that are '****ing' and augment them for all to see..

peace
Reply

john316
01-26-2008, 09:13 PM
Well to set the record straight
I am no respector of persons. Promoting hate sites and forcing beliefs is unbiblical. Christianity was never a religion to begin with. There were Jews who were still Jews and accepted Jesus Chrsit as Lord and Savior. There are Muslims who accpet Jesus as Lord and Savior. I respect the Islamic way of life. in only certain aspects where it agrees with the Bible. I dont believe every muslim is like Osama bin ladin. I believe there are some sincere muslims whom I really want to talk to. But I believe in relationship with my creator, redeemer, and comforter and I want to glorify Him in the best way I can. I am not here to may fun of Muslims or insult. As far as my belief goes, without Christ I am worthy of insult. I dont take pride in what I believe. I like people who are humble. And I want to talk to the humble muslims and share my beliefs with them.
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glo
01-26-2008, 09:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I believe the site is simply quoting from the bible, the way the same counter site does against Islam..
I mean that is how both make their points correct?
they take excerpts that are '****ing' and augment them for all to see..

peace
As I mentioned in a previous post, possibly in another thread, I don't visit such refutation sites - neither those against Islam nor those against Christianity.
On this occasion, however, I followed the link John gave, because I was intrigued as to why any Islamic site would want to present their prophet Isa (PBUH) in such a negative light.

As you say, the quotes given from the Bible to support the argument, are completely out of context and say nothing of the sort, as suggested by the article ...
And yes, I take your point that the sited against Islam probably use the very same tactics.
All the more reason to stay clear of such sites.

On a more personal note, how do you feel as a Muslim, to see Jesus described in such a way?

Peace, sister.
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glo
01-26-2008, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
Because first and for most it is a hate sight.
It is just the flip side of Answering Islam.
My point is that the people who run 'Answering Christianity' may very well hate the Christian faith. They may even hate Christians.
But they should not hate Jesus! Being Muslims, how can they?? :ooh:
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جوري
01-26-2008, 09:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
As I mentioned in a previous post, possibly in another thread, I don't visit such refutation sites - neither those against Islam nor those against Christianity.
On this occasion, however, I followed the link John gave, because I was intrigued as to why any Islamic site would want to present their prophet Isa (PBUH) in such a negative light.

As you say, the quotes given from the Bible to support the argument, are completely out of context and say nothing of the sort, as suggested by the article ...
And yes, I take your point that the sited against Islam probably use the very same tactics.
All the more reason to stay clear of such sites.

On a more personal note, how do you feel as a Muslim, to see Jesus described in such a way?

Peace, sister.
this is how the bible describes Jesus not the Quran or the hadiths.. the folks of the site can only work with what is available from biblical literature.. and agreed out of context-- isn't that exactly what they do with Quran and hadith? I am grateful someone answers back because frankly I am so sick of the church's antics for centuries and the people who commission such sites, it is only befitting they get a taste of their medicine.. and pls glo don't quote me some biblical passage about 'love thy neighbor' frankly the fact that such sites exist is a testament to the hypocrisy preached by christians, who are indeed anything but loving.. it isn't enough to have it written down.. perhaps they should practice what they preach?
peace
Reply

*Hana*
01-26-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Can I ask any one of you why you were Christians? First of all I do not expect people to think exactly the way I do. And I do not believe in any organised religion as such. but a relationship with God. as most Christians may believe. I do not believe God is weak enough to get his word distorted by men. And idolatory is has a whole different meaning.

to be continued...........
Peace John:

I was a Christian because that's what my family was and it's what I was taught. I wasn't taught nor was I encouraged to learn about other faiths.

Peace,
Hana
Reply

wilberhum
01-26-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
My point is that the people who run 'Answering Christianity' may very well hate the Christian faith. They may even hate Christians.
But they should not hate Jesus! Being Muslims, how can they?? :ooh:
You surly aren't under the delusion that all Muslims are good Muslims.

For some, hate is more important than there religion.

We see it here every day.
Reply

*Hana*
01-26-2008, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I would like to return to this point John is making.

The website he has posted a link to seems to compare Muhammed's bahaviour with Jesus' - thereby indeed seeming to demonise Jesus as a man who did not care for his fellow man, did not respect Gentiles, promoted the killing of children ... :ooh:

Surely this is not how Islam sees Jesus??! :-[
I always thought he was seen as a highly respected and revered prophet in Islam.
Why would an Islamic refutation site present him in such a way?
I find it quite upsetting ... :cry:

Peace
Peace Glo:

The site is not trying to portray Jesus, pbuh, in this light. It is trying to show that it is the bible and Christians that show him in that light because those are verses taken from the bible NOT the Qur'an.

I'm assuming on the other site it said Muslims do not accept or revere Jesus, and this site was trying to prove it was the opposite by posting verses from the bible.

By the way, I'm not saying I agree with the methods used and calling it a "comparison" was very poorly done. But, they were trying to turn the tables on the false accusations of the other site.

Hope that clears things up.

Peace,
Hana
Reply

john316
01-26-2008, 11:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Peace John:

I was a Christian because that's what my family was and it's what I was taught. I wasn't taught nor was I encouraged to learn about other faiths.

Peace,
Hana
I'm sorry to say Hana. but I have to say that Christianity is about what your parents teach. or what other teachers will interpret for you. I believe my personal relationship with God is the same as what God had with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, to name a few and of course Jesus. I was Catholic because my parents were Catholic. It doesnt matter which denomination you are or what you did in the name of Christianity Jesus said if you are not born again you will not inherit the kingdom of God. I believe all these denominations are just ideolagies as I can think of it right now. And I dont consider myself belonging to any denomination or whatsoever.
Reply

*Hana*
01-26-2008, 11:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I'm sorry to say Hana. but I have to say that Christianity is about what your parents teach. or what other teachers will interpret for you. I believe my personal relationship with God is the same as what God had with Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, to name a few and of course Jesus. I was Catholic because my parents were Catholic. It doesnt matter which denomination you are or what you did in the name of Christianity Jesus said if you are not born again you will not inherit the kingdom of God. I believe all these denominations are just ideolagies as I can think of it right now. And I dont consider myself belonging to any denomination or whatsoever.
I obviously don't believe Christianity is the truth and as far as being "born again"...that's hogwash and only condemns all the people born sometime before the 1860's. The "born again Christian" was a movement that was created around that time. What a miracle that this concept wasn't discovered for over 1800 years after Jesus left. :?

Everyone starts out with the faith of their parents and it's what made me Christian. When I was able to see the truth and search for myself, I was guided to Islam. Alhamdulillah. :)

Peace,
Hana
Reply

Woodrow
01-26-2008, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Can I ask any one of you why you were Christians? First of all I do not expect people to think exactly the way I do. And I do not believe in any organised religion as such. but a relationship with God. as most Christians may believe. I do not believe God is weak enough to get his word distorted by men. And idolatory is has a whole different meaning.

to be continued...........
I was born Roman Catholic. Although my ancestors 400+ years before me were Muslims. I am descended from primarily Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Taters) many of whom were were forced into Christianity. The history of the Lipkas is another story, but just giving a Little Backgraound. My ancestors had become very staunch Catholics and I was born into a family that saw no other Religion as being Christian.

When I was about 18 I entered the seminary to be a priest. That was my early ambition. From the earliest I can remember, I was always driven with a desire to serve God(swt). However, it only took a few theology and history classes to convince me that Catholicism was not the path. For the next decade or so I studied, learned and accepted several other denominations and got baptized in several different denominations. Yet, the closer I drew to Jesus(as) and the greater my love for him grew, the more I came to understand that the Christian concept of Jesus(as) was distracting away from the true beauty and message Jesus(as) was sent to deliver. The more in depth I read the NT the more I learned that it was not the message nor the words of Jesus(as) except in a few lines, found in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I finally could only come to the conclusion that the books written after Mark, Luke Matthew and John had no part in what Christianity originally was. and that in some point the original 4 gospels were altered to support the books that came later.

At that point I became essentially an agnostic, who called himself a Buddhist. I semi practiced Zen, but I was basically an agnostic for nearly 40 years. Having lived in Islamic countries more than a few times, I was familiar with Arabic and had a vague concept of what Islam was. I had picked up an Arabic copy of the Qur'an in Morocco, somewhere between 1959-1961, I had read it many times over the next 40 or so years, but as an aide to help me understand Arabic and as a guide to Arabic literature.

When I was a little over 65 years old I was reading it again, and I was overwhelmed with a feeling of recognition, warmth and understanding. I was reborn and I firmly believe that Allaah(swt) had blessed me at that moment and opened my eyes for me to enter life as a new creation. I immediately said the Shahadah and knew that I had returned home to Islam and finally found I could love Jesus(as) for His true self and not be bound by the false image I had at one time worshiped.
Reply

john316
01-27-2008, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
I obviously don't believe Christianity is the truth and as far as being "born again"...that's hogwash and only condemns all the people born sometime before the 1860's. The "born again Christian" was a movement that was created around that time. What a miracle that this concept wasn't discovered for over 1800 years after Jesus left. :?

Everyone starts out with the faith of their parents and it's what made me Christian. When I was able to see the truth and search for myself, I was guided to Islam. Alhamdulillah. :)

Peace,
Hana
it is not a movement though some may claim. the difference is only in language. since the english versions of scripture were'nt available until 1100s term may have been recognised in other languages. but if you look into the meaning of it it actually means a regenaration. the old things have past. now I will not go to the extent of saying that all people b4 1860 were condemened for eternity. Though there is evidence of unscriptural doctines used by the early church(like orginial sin and sacrements). There may be a very few missionaries who have had a true relationship with God.
Reply

*Hana*
01-27-2008, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
it is not a movement though some may claim. the difference is only in language. since the english versions of scripture were'nt available until 1100s term may have been recognised in other languages. but if you look into the meaning of it it actually means a regenaration. the old things have past. now I will not go to the extent of saying that all people b4 1860 were condemened for eternity. Though there is evidence of unscriptural doctines used by the early church(like orginial sin and sacrements). There may be a very few missionaries who have had a true relationship with God.
Prior to it's "creation" in 1860 no one followed this concept. You do realize 1860 was not so long ago and I'm 100% certain at least 1 Christian Scholar or even 1 of the Apostles would have mentioned it in 1800 + years. So, yes, it is a movement that began around the 1860's and it has condemned millions of Christians, including those that were taught directly by Jesus, to Hell. It's a ridiculous concept invented by someone looking to become rich on the donations sent to him on a regular basis to "deliver this new found truth". And they do become insanely rich because all these people buy into the idea "born again" which was never taught by Jesus or His disciples, and their hard earned money is necessary to spread the message.

A born again, Benny Hinn's ministry takes in about 100 million dollars per year. His white suits cost thousands of dollars. How is this helping the born again movement? Ever wonder how much he spends on his gold jewelry? Ever wonder how many people died because they believed he alone could heal them so refused medical treatment?

It's madness. It's a movement and one that seems to cause more harm than good. So sad.

I strongly recommend you read the bible for yourself and not to accept whatever someone else tells you.

I wish you well with whatever path life takes you.

Peace,
Hana
Reply

john316
01-27-2008, 01:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Prior to it's "creation" in 1860 no one followed this concept. You do realize 1860 was not so long ago and I'm 100% certain at least 1 Christian Scholar or even 1 of the Apostles would have mentioned it in 1800 + years. So, yes, it is a movement that began around the 1860's and it has condemned millions of Christians, including those that were taught directly by Jesus, to Hell. It's a ridiculous concept invented by someone looking to become rich on the donations sent to him on a regular basis to "deliver this new found truth". And they do become insanely rich because all these people buy into the idea "born again" which was never taught by Jesus or His disciples, and their hard earned money is necessary to spread the message.

A born again, Benny Hinn's ministry takes in about 100 million dollars per year. His white suits cost thousands of dollars. How is this helping the born again movement? Ever wonder how much he spends on his gold jewelry? Ever wonder how many people died because they believed he alone could heal them so refused medical treatment?

It's madness. It's a movement and one that seems to cause more harm than good. So sad.

I strongly recommend you read the bible for yourself and not to accept whatever someone else tells you.

I wish you well with whatever path life takes you.

Peace,
Hana
I have to disagree with you, to a great extent. You are judging the Christian faith based on the faults of other Christian missionaries. And i suggest you not to do that. I can also judge Islam based on atrocities by bin Laden and all that but I choose not to do so. I believe there are some misunderstandings of the Christian faith and some of those arguments posted by or some else(I don't know who) have some misunderstandings. I had some misunderstandings of the Islamic faith too. But I am glad I am learning something expanding my veiw. I respect the five prayers, the hijab. I will say I am muslim in the sense that I submit to God's will as Jesus did. but I dont accept Muhammad's prophethood.
But it's nothing new to me. If you expect missionaries to be successful expect controversy or jealousy even within the Christian faith.
Reply

*Hana*
01-27-2008, 01:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I have to disagree with you, to a great extent. You are judging the Christian faith based on the faults of other Christian missionaries. And i suggest you not to do that. I can also judge Islam based on atrocities by bin Laden and all that but I choose not to do so. I believe there are some misunderstandings of the Christian faith and some of those arguments posted by or some else(I don't know who) have some misunderstandings. I had some misunderstandings of the Islamic faith too. But I am glad I am learning something expanding my veiw. I respect the five prayers, the hijab. I will say I am muslim in the sense that I submit to God's will as Jesus did. but I dont accept Muhammad's prophethood.
But it's nothing new to me. If you expect missionaries to be successful expect controversy or jealousy even within the Christian faith.
Actually, I didn't say at all this was Christianity. I said it was BORN AGAINS...a sect of Christianity, and Benny Hinn's ministry. Show me where I said THIS was Christianity?????? You need to read more carefully before you accuse me. If you want to continue discussions you need to make sure you understand what was posted before running off at the fingers.

Whether you agree with me to a great extent doesn't effect me. The FACTS speak for themselves. Look up Benny Hinn and tell me what that man has done for Christianity? What has he done for God? But, hey, if that's what you call Christianity...all the power to ya!

And as far as respect goes, I had aunts that were nuns, friends that were priests, all my friends are Christians, (NONE born agains!!) and we have nothing but respect for each other, so please don't try to insinuate I don't respect. What I don't respect are thieves calling themselves preachers and healers stealing from people to increase their own, private fortunes like Benny Hill, and the Bakers in the past, as well as the many others that prey on people. IMHO: It's a cowardly and despicable act.

Peace,
Hana

Hana
Reply

Woodrow
01-27-2008, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I have to disagree with you, to a great extent. You are judging the Christian faith based on the faults of other Christian missionaries. And i suggest you not to do that. I can also judge Islam based on atrocities by bin Laden and all that but I choose not to do so. I believe there are some misunderstandings of the Christian faith and some of those arguments posted by or some else(I don't know who) have some misunderstandings. I had some misunderstandings of the Islamic faith too. But I am glad I am learning something expanding my veiw. I respect the five prayers, the hijab. I will say I am muslim in the sense that I submit to God's will as Jesus did. but I dont accept Muhammad's prophethood.
But it's nothing new to me. If you expect missionaries to be successful expect controversy or jealousy even within the Christian faith.
I believe you would be very interested in the Syriac Bible. Although I would prefer to get you interested in the Qur'an. But to be honest, although I do not agree with it I Believe the Syriac Bible to be the closest to what the Bible was. The first part of the OT is in Hebrew and than it changes to Chaldean Aramaic and The NT is in Syriac Aramaic. It does have word for word English translations in it. From what I have seen it is a reasonably accurate translation. But, it is impossible to get an accurate translation of any Semitic language.
Reply

glo
01-27-2008, 10:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
this is how the bible describes Jesus not the Quran or the hadiths.. the folks of the site can only work with what is available from biblical literature..
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Peace Glo:

The site is not trying to portray Jesus, pbuh, in this light. It is trying to show that it is the bible and Christians that show him in that light because those are verses taken from the bible NOT the Qur'an.
If the site was merely doing, what you two suggest, namely to discredit how the Bible presents Jesus, I would still disagree, but at least I could understand it from an Islamic perspective.

To suggest that Jesus promoted the killing of children, the killing of apostates and slavery is ridiculous, but I will not go into refuting the Bible verses quoted in the article - that was not my reason for posting in this thread.

I disagree that the article merely criticises and questions the Bible.
It criticises Jesus himself ... and that's what I find so upsetting.
Titles like 'Jesus and Muhammad Compared', 'How Jesus and Muhammad treated Children' and 'The Popularity of Jesus and Muhammad' clearly show that the aim is to compare Jesus and Muhammed, and further reading shows that Jesus' behaviour, teaching and example is discredited in order to make Muhammed look like the 'superior one' ...

My question is and remains:
How can a Muslim site present one of their revered and honoured prophets in such a way?? And how do you as Muslims feel when you see Isa (PBUH) protrayed in such a way?
(I don't believe anybody has answered this question yet. My apologies if I have missed somebody's reply. :))

format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
and agreed out of context-- isn't that exactly what they do with Quran and hadith? I am grateful someone answers back because frankly I am so sick of the church's antics for centuries and the people who commission such sites, it is only befitting they get a taste of their medicine.. and pls glo don't quote me some biblical passage about 'love thy neighbor' frankly the fact that such sites exist is a testament to the hypocrisy preached by christians, who are indeed anything but loving.. it isn't enough to have it written down.. perhaps they should practice what they preach?
peace
Ambrosia, sister, like I said I know and understand very little about refutation sites. They are not places I visit, nor indeed wish to visit in the future.
I could quote many Bible verses to you about Jesus teaching and modelling love for children, for the needy, for all our fellow human beings; about Jesus teaching and modelling love and compassion and humility and servitude ... but since you are asking me not to, I won't ... :)

What I do detect is your hurt and your anger against Christians who you perceive to be hypocritical, and those who you perceive to be attacking your own faith.
(On a side note, with regards to wanting to refute false religious teachings, I have always had the impression that that was highly esteemed in Islam. You yourself are one of the greatest refuters in this forum ... can you not understand the desire of others to do the same with their faith?? Or have you become a defender of you faith, because you perceive it to be attacked by others?)

Personally, I think the only way to discuss religion is to do so peacefully, with every participant having a desire to share their own beliefs, but also to listen and respect the beliefs of others.
But I cannot change people' heart - only God can.
I can speak out against hypocrits and hatemongers - and I try to where I can.

I extend a hand in friendship to you, Ambrosia, and I pray that as well as strengthening your love for God and your desire to serve him, God will give you his peace which surpasses all understanding.

Peace
Reply

*Hana*
01-27-2008, 11:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
If the site was merely doing, what you two suggest, namely to discredit how the Bible presents Jesus, I would still disagree, but at least I could understand it from an Islamic perspective.

To suggest that Jesus promoted the killing of children, the killing of apostates and slavery is ridiculous, but I will not go into refuting the Bible verses quoted in the article - that was not my reason for posting in this thread.
This site answers to suggestions from the other site. My guess is that the other site misquoted some text from the Qur'an or Hadith placing Muhammed, pbuh, in a bad light and/or suggested we dismiss Jesus, pbuh and do not accept him at all.

It is simply reversing what was done on the other site.

I disagree that the article merely criticises and questions the Bible.
It criticises Jesus himself ... and that's what I find so upsetting.
Titles like 'Jesus and Muhammad Compared', 'How Jesus and Muhammad treated Children' and 'The Popularity of Jesus and Muhammad' clearly show that the aim is to compare Jesus and Muhammed, and further reading shows that Jesus' behaviour, teaching and example is discredited in order to make Muhammed look like the 'superior one' ...
The article shows how the BIBLE and therefore CHRISTIANS criticize Jesus, pbuh. It's trying to show that it is the Christian that does not respect Jesus, not the Muslim. It's not trying to say one is greater than the other. It probably would have been more effective had the writer taken the time to quote from the Qur'an to show how much Muslims love and revere Jesus, pbuh, but, their focus is to refute everything said in the other site without necessarily thinking it completely through. :)

My question is and remains:
How can a Muslim site present one of their revered and honoured prophets in such a way?? And how do you as Muslims feel when you see Isa (PBUH) protrayed in such a way?
(I don't believe anybody has answered this question yet. My apologies if I have missed somebody's reply. :))
Again, as above, it is not portraying Jesus, pbuh, in this light. As a Muslim, I know the truth about Jesus, pbuh, and how much we love and respect Him, so seeing quotes from the Bible that suggest differently, doesn't effect me whatsoever. It only surprises me that Christians are not upset by some of these quotes that don't portray him properly. (I know some verses were taken out of context.)

Our Holy Book would never say anything negative about Jesus, pbuh. It bothers me when a non-Muslim says something derogatory about Him, but other than that, biblical verses don't bother me in the least. So, while I disagree with their methods, the quotes don't bother me.

Ambrosia, sister, like I said I know and understand very little about refutation sites. They are not places I visit, nor indeed wish to visit in the future.
I could quote many Bible verses to you about Jesus teaching and modelling love for children, for the needy, for all our fellow human beings; about Jesus teaching and modelling love and compassion and humility and servitude ... but since you are asking me not to, I won't ... :)
Glo, I think we all know that Jesus, pbuh, was a mighty Prophet of God, (in your case more than a Prophet), but still great. :) We know He didn't harm children or His mother, etc. Just please understand this article is strictly for refuting another site. And, you are right to stay away from those types of sites. They are more concerned with being right than being truthful. I don't like seeing text twisted to prove a point by Christians or Muslims and both these sites do exactly that in many cases.

Peace to you,
Hana
Reply

john316
01-27-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
thought you'd get a kick out of your fellow christian's perspective..

cheers

I am sorry to say that I am really upset that though most of these arguments may be a misunderstanding some of them are thourougly out of context. In Matthew 15:9 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah about the hypocrisy of the Jews.
And about when Jesus cried on the cross "Eli eli.....thani?". The answer is in the question itself. As far as from what we believe all our sins were laid upon him and therefore God doesnt partake in unholiness.

'Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 were the fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 22:1. Verse 3 of this psalm then gives us in-sight into why God forsook Jesus on the cross: "But You are holy . . ." A holy Creator cannot have fellowship with sin. When Jesus was on the cross, the sin of the entire world was laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but Scripture says God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13).'(taken from the Evidence Bible).

These are just two out of the many debunked. More to come. As promised my arguments were all Biblical based. and not taken from any source like the Quran or other religuos texts.
Reply

جوري
01-27-2008, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I am sorry to say that I am really upset that though most of these arguments may be a misunderstanding some of them are thourougly out of context. In Matthew 15:9 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah about the hypocrisy of the Jews.
I am not aware that he is making an argument.. he wrote of what lead him to Islam.. 20,000 americans find their way to Islam every year, he isn't alone!

And about when Jesus cried on the cross "Eli eli.....thani?". The answer is in the question itself. As far as from what we believe all our sins were laid upon him and therefore God doesnt partake in unholiness.
That doesn't make sense to most sane people.. from no man's sin will another be punished, nor of good deeds will another be rewarded, each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds.. in this life, those who work hard, surpass, stand out and earn their place, and it is no different in the here after. I am afraid many of you use this as a carte blanche to commit all sorts of sins so that the (sin eater) will absolve you... that is absured to most reflective people!


'Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 were the fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 22:1. Verse 3 of this psalm then gives us in-sight into why God forsook Jesus on the cross: "But You are holy . . ." A holy Creator cannot have fellowship with sin. When Jesus was on the cross, the sin of the entire world was laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but Scripture says God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13).'(taken from the Evidence Bible).
see above reply!

These are just two out of the many debunked. More to come. As promised my arguments were all Biblical based. and not taken from any source like the Quran or other religuos texts.
Debunked? I don't see how you could, least of which using an unreliable source as the bible of which no two denominations follow the same guidelines... unfortunately, it is flawed at the source..

I find you a sincere person, and I wish you well.. but there is no going back to darkness after seeing the light.. for what it is worth not only did I dedicate a good chunk of my life studying theology, I have also attended catholic school. I believe most people are what they are by choice. You simply can't show me better than what I currently know!


Bless your envoy and your servant Jesus son of Mary and peace upon him on the day of birth and on the day of death and on the day he is raised up again. It is a word of truth in which they doubt. It is not for God to take a son. Glory be to him when he decrees a thing he only says be and it is. Sura 19--holy Quran


if I were you, I'd spend this time with the Jews.. this is what they think of Jesus and Mary

...'R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers, she played the harlot with carpenters."'


peace!
Reply

*Hana*
01-27-2008, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I am sorry to say that I am really upset that though most of these arguments may be a misunderstanding some of them are thourougly out of context. In Matthew 15:9 Jesus was quoting from Isaiah about the hypocrisy of the Jews.
And about when Jesus cried on the cross "Eli eli.....thani?". The answer is in the question itself. As far as from what we believe all our sins were laid upon him and therefore God doesnt partake in unholiness.

'Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 were the fulfillment of David’s prophecy in Psalm 22:1. Verse 3 of this psalm then gives us in-sight into why God forsook Jesus on the cross: "But You are holy . . ." A holy Creator cannot have fellowship with sin. When Jesus was on the cross, the sin of the entire world was laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6; 2 Corinthians 5:21), but Scripture says God is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13).'(taken from the Evidence Bible).

These are just two out of the many debunked. More to come. As promised my arguments were all Biblical based. and not taken from any source like the Quran or other religuos texts.
First...what did you debunk?? All you did was quote verses. You never presented a discussion or anything that would make one assume you even understood what you posted. :muddlehea

Second...why would you even think you would be expected to quote from the Qur'an when you don't believe anything in it? :-\

Anyway, just posting verses from text is not a discussion so you should spend more time learning about your own faith so you can speak for yourself rather than just posting. :)

Take care and peace to you,
Hana
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-28-2008, 12:52 AM
John316, you say that Zakir Naik and them all take things totally out of context and make things up.. And I totally agree.

But you Christians do too! I mean look at how different Orthodoxy/Catholic is from Protestant! They almost seem like two different religions!

Obviously, people interpret things differently. Many times we laugh at them, but just let it be!
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 12:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am not aware that he is making an argument.. he wrote of what lead him to Islam.. 20,000 americans find their way to Islam every year, he isn't alone!


That doesn't make sense to most sane people.. from no man's sin will another be punished, nor of good deeds will another be rewarded, each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds.. in this life, those who work hard, surpass, stand out and earn their place, and it is no different in the here after. I am afraid many of you use this as a carte blanche to commit all sorts of sins so that the (sin eater) will absolve you... that is absured to most reflective people!




peace!

I'm sorry to say yet again but in this paragraph you seem to have no clue what you are talking about. So which is why I have this long post which is comprehensive enough to eliminate some misconceptions of our faith in Christ.
And at the end of it I would like to supplement you with a youtube video about a missionary named Paul Washer who preached at a conference in the United States. Please got thru this and then you will have an idea of what I believe or what genuine faith in Christ really means.

I AS A CHRISTIAN ATTEST THAT I AM SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. AND FAITH IS PROCEEDED OR FOLLOWED BY REPENTANCE-A COMPLETE TURNING AWAY FROM SIN AND TURNING TO A HOLY GOD.


Grace: What does it mean?

What did the bible authors and God mean when they wrote the Greek word that we translate as “Grace”? First, let’s look at what most people think of when they read the English word "grace". Then I'll demonstrate with scripture and biblical research what the Bible authors actually meant.

Which Gospel of Grace?
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:8-10, KJV).
Many read this scripture with the idea that grace is the opposite of works. That is not what it says. However, from this interpretation, they reason as follows:

“Grace makes it ok to sin as much as you want-- you will still go to heaven because you are saved by grace and faith, NOT works.”

This interpretation was around during the writing of the New Testament. Roughly 20% of the New Testament is devoted to correcting or refuting this false teaching in various ways. So the best way to understand God’s grace is to read the New Testament, and the rest of the Bible for that matter. But, in case you are still working on that and need some quick answers, this presents a summary of true biblical grace. The following scripture identifies the above interpretation:

Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about[ 4 Or men who were marked out for condemnation] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
(Whole Chapter: Jude 1 In context: Jude 1:3-5)

These grace-changers teach as if there is no causal relationship between grace and works, or behavior. I agree that we are saved by God's grace, through faith, not by our own works. However, it is by the same grace that saves in Eph. 2:8, that Jesus created us unto good works in verse 10. This grace brings salvation this way: It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (Titus 2:11,12 NIV).

For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age (Titus 2:11,12 NIV).

Receiving a false grace that does not manifest itself behaviorally in obedience to God’s commands will not bring salvation. That is why this “license for immorality” teaching of grace is another Gospel. Paul verifies Jude’s statement above, that those who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality are condemned:

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
(Whole Chapter: Galatians 1 In context: Galatians 1:7-9)




We are saved by grace, but it is possible for a Christian under grace to lose his inheritance of the kingdom of God (Gal. 5:21), be disowned by Christ (Mt. 10:33), have his share in New Jerusalem taken away (Rev. 22:19), and die spiritually if he chooses to live according to the sinful nature (Rom. 8:13) as was exemplified by the Prodigal who became spiritually dead and lost (Lk. 15:24,32).

Also, the same one who gave us the truth about grace as cited in Eph. 2:8,9 and Rom. 11:6 also reported that Christians could fall from grace to the point where Christ will be of no value at all to them (Gal.5:2-4). All of this corporately is the true grace of God, according to Paul. To declare something different from this is to side with the counterfeit grace message, which is just as much a license for immorality in our day as it was in Jude's.

So then, this far we know this much about God’s Grace:
1. it is received by faith
2. it manifests behaviorally in obedience to God’s word.
3. it must be continued in until death, in order for it to reap eternal life.
4. it is not a license for immorality.

Jewish Roots
What did the bible authors and God mean when they wrote the Greek word that we translate as “Grace”? The Greek NT word for grace is Charos. Written in Greek by the Jewish NT writers, the word refers back to its usage in the Septuagint – the Greek Old Testament that Paul and the other bible authors probably used, or at least had access to. If they were reading the OT in Hebrew, the word for Grace would be “chesed” instead of the Greek “charos”. But these words were used interchangeably in the Septuagint--as if the way to express the Hebrew word “chesed” in Greek was “charos”.

What then does “chesed” mean in the Hebrew mindset?

“An extension of contract granted for the purposes of enabling the breeching party to return to covenant loyalty.”

Grace works!

This definition explains otherwise confusing usages of the word in the NT. Here we see that Grace “worked” in and through Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 15 In context: 1 Corinthians 15:9-11)

2 Corinthians 9:8
And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.
(Whole Chapter: 2 Corinthians 9 In context: 2 Corinthians 9:7-9)


These and many other passages of scripture are confusing to the Gentile mind because they state that grace works. Gentiles usually like to think of grace and works as opposites. This type of thinking did not exist in the biblical Jewish mind. Indeed, true saving grace does work. But not without the recipient’s permission and effort:

Philippians 2
12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Notice that both God and the recipient are working in this passage above. This passage is no longer confusing if you take the Bible author’s view of “grace”. Neither are these passages below, where recipients of grace strain toward the prize of eternal life.

Philippians 3
Pressing on Toward the Goal
12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.


1 Timothy 4
9This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

1 Peter 5
12With the help of Silas,[2] whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.

Acts 13
43When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

Unmerited favor?

How hard is it to “stand fast” in unmerited favor? Our word “grace” in English usually means “unmerited favor”. Certainly, God has shown us unmerited favor, but when he shows us this is important. It is only after we accept his law and repent of our transgressions of it.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (KJV)

1 John 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (Whole Chapter: 1 John 1 In context: 1 John 1:9-11)

These have always been the terms of his blood covenant -- whether the law to be accepted and obeyed has been the law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, or Christ—the terms of granting grace for transgressions of the law have always been the same: Only after we accept his law and repent of our transgressions of it. So the meaning of grace is consistent across covenants or laws given.


Grace: empowerment to obey

To whom grace is extended and for what purpose? It is extended only to those who are willing to return to covenant loyalty according to the terms of God’s blood covenant: Laying their own life down in exchange Christ’s life, so that Christ can live through us by grace. In other words, God himself is fulfilling your end of the covenant daily through his son: His blood mediating (Hebrews 9:15), and his Spirit empowering you to obey the truth.

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be my disciple.
(Whole Chapter: Luke 14 In context: Luke 14:25-27)

John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (KJV)

1 Peter 1:22-23
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (KJV)

Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, in the holiness and sincerity that are from God. We have done so not according to worldly wisdom but according to God's grace (2 Cor. 1:12, NIV).

God only empowers (through His Spirit of grace) those who are willing to accept and follow His terms of His covenant: The New Covenant written in His blood. They cannot take credit for, or boast about the works they have performed by and through God’s grace. That does not mean that God is like a demon who is going to possess them to do things that they are unwilling to do. No, they must make in effort in responding to God’s grace by faith.

Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without
holiness no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14, NIV).

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life (Rom. 2:7, NIV).

James:

Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[4] ? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[5] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYsClDclvf0
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
John316, you say that Zakir Naik and them all take things totally out of context and make things up.. And I totally agree.

But you Christians do too! I mean look at how different Orthodoxy/Catholic is from Protestant! They almost seem like two different religions!

Obviously, people interpret things differently. Many times we laugh at them, but just let it be!

Catholic/Orthodox churches fall short of scriptures and their own scriptures contradict themselves. Protestantism is a reformation in which the word of God is the final authority. Othordoxy may have bishops and all that. Catholics have the pope as the authority. In Christianity we are all entilted to be ministers and witnesses of Christ. Read the whole Bible for yourself and then come to a conclusion. And I do not balong to any denomination or whatsoever. They are all ideologies as far as I am concerned. I do not believe in Once Saved always Saved as the Baptists may believe. I go to church not because i have to because I want to fellowship with God's people and seek advice on how to love God and love my neighbours and live a godly life. Most may say dont believe what others may tell you all the time and that is exactly what I am doing. I am seeking the truth for myself. As far as God is concenred, my fellowship with God will only be broken if I lie, lust, steal, covet, and things like these not by not bowing to Mecca 5 times a day or not fasting during Ramadan or not paying my Zakat. I prefer to do my good deeds in secret as Christ instructs me to do and be a living sacrfice for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And also defend my stand and my beliefs against hate sites, misconceptions. And as far as from what I believe my so called relatioship with God tells me to contend for the faith and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Reply

thirdwatch512
01-28-2008, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Catholic/Orthodox churches fall short of scriptures and their own scriptures contradict themselves. Protestantism is a reformation in which the word of God is the final authority. Othordoxy may have bishops and all that. Catholics have the pope as the authority. In Christianity we are all entilted to be ministers and witnesses of Christ. Read the whole Bible for yourself and then come to a conclusion. And I do not balong to any denomination or whatsoever. They are all ideologies as far as I am concerned. I do not believe in Once Saved always Saved as the Baptists may believe. I go to church not because i have to because I want to fellowship with God's people and seek advice on how to love God and love my neighbours and live a godly life. Most may say dont believe what others may tell you all the time and that is exactly what I am doing. I am seeking the truth for myself. As far as God is concenred, my fellowship with God will only be broken if I lie, lust, steal, covet, and things like these not by not bowing to Mecca 5 times a day or not fasting during Ramadan or not paying my Zakat. I prefer to do my good deeds in secret as Christ instructs me to do and be a living sacrfice for my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And also defend my stand and my beliefs against hate sites, misconceptions. And as far as from what I believe my so called relatioship with God tells me to contend for the faith and spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.
So basically 98% of Christians for the first 1500 years were in error in your view, correct?
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 03:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
So basically 98% of Christians for the first 1500 years were in error in your view, correct?

They will be judged by the witness of creation, conscience and reason. If they are truly seeking God, He can reveal Himself to them. See Acts 10 and Acts 16. God as a general rule uses literature, preaching, etc to reach people with the Gospel but He is by no means limited to these means.(Psalm 19:1-3, Romans 1:18-31). The issue is not with skin, the issue is with sin. God is no respector of persons. Lied stolen, blasphemed, never always put God first then yes they are all subject to an eternity in hellfire.
Reply

*Hana*
01-28-2008, 03:55 AM
John:

FYI: The 5 daily prayers, paying Zakat, Fasting during the holy month of Ramadan, are 3 of the 5 pillars of Islam. And is ordained for all Muslims. Good deeds are something totally different. Unless you consider attending church and worshiping God a good deed rather than something ordained for you?

Just to remind you that the Catholics were some of the first followers of Christ and Protestants came later....Born Agains, Mormons, etc., MUCH MUCH later, like 1800+ years later! The Coptic Christians have been around since the life time of Jesus, pbuh, and are still around so please be careful of your choice of words.

It never fails to amaze me how some sects of Christianity claim to have found the absolute truth 1800 years AFTER Jesus, pbuh, and have no problem condemning millions and millions before them to Hell....including, I might add, the very Apostles of Jesus, pbuh.

You said you don't belong to any particular denomination?? Hmmmm, care to explain that? The church you say you attend is called the "church of no denomination"? Which version of the bible are you reading these days, maybe we can help you to determine which denomination you are following. You sound to me like to believe in the ideology of Born Again Christians.

Peace
Hana
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 04:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I'm sorry to say yet again but in this paragraph you seem to have no clue what you are talking about.
I think observation of christian behavior are enough of a testament to whether or not I know what I am talking about!
Either way, I don't see why it matters?


So which is why I have this long post which is comprehensive enough to eliminate some misconceptions of our faith in Christ.
I am going to level with you, I don't read them, I am already done with my bible study days, the passages mean very little to me. Something has come along to abrogate them.... Do you waste your days reflecting over Balaam בִּלְעָם the prophet from the Torah? I think not, I believe you have found a God in Jesus and he occupies your time so that you are not dwelling much in the old T.. try to carry that abstraction over.. I have found all I need in the Quran...

And at the end of it I would like to supplement you with a youtube video about a missionary named Paul Washer who preached at a conference in the United States. Please got thru this and then you will have an idea of what I believe or what genuine faith in Christ really means.
what is your hope out of that shenanigan? that I am going to suddenly agree with you that Jesus is God?

I AS A CHRISTIAN ATTEST THAT I AM SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ALONE IN THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST. AND FAITH IS PROCEEDED OR FOLLOWED BY REPENTANCE-A COMPLETE TURNING AWAY FROM SIN AND TURNING TO A HOLY GOD.
Good for you, and I wish you happiness and contentment on the path of your choice..

peace
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 05:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I think observation of christian behavior are enough of a testament to whether or not I know what I am talking about!
Either way, I don't see why it matters?
I couldn agree with you any better.


Matthew 10:32-33
32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

I can confess Jesus with my mouth but if I deny him with my actions. Then I dont consider myself to be his disciple.
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 05:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I couldn agree with you any better.
.
Great..
I am guessing this topic has reached the end of its value...

peace!
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 05:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Great..
I am guessing this topic has reached the end of its value...

peace!
Might I ask why are you a Muslim
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 05:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Might I ask why are you a Muslim
Because I want to be!

peace
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 05:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Because I want to be!

peace
i dont think you've answered my question. I suspect you are hiding something from me.
Reply

snakelegs
01-28-2008, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
i dont think you've answered my question. I suspect you are hiding something from me.
good one!!!! what could be more clear?



Reply

thirdwatch512
01-28-2008, 05:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
i dont think you've answered my question. I suspect you are hiding something from me.
LOL john316, get to know people on this forum a litttttlllleee longer before jumping to such conclusions :)
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 05:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
i dont think you've answered my question. I suspect you are hiding something from me.
Actually I did... I tend to give general answers to canvassers, that is, if I am being generous, most of the time I don't entertain folly!

peace
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 06:35 AM
reguarding Isaiah 42:8 consider this cross reference in Isaiah 48:11

in both these references God says he will not give his glory to any graven image or any other god. God of the Bible is the true and Holy God. Jesus, the holy one, is the image of the invisible God.(Col. 1:15)
He lived a human life and did not sin. God did not sin. Jesus did not profane God's holy name. As a man on earth he did not do his manly will but God's will.
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 06:49 AM
you know I am starting to worry about you..
People suffering from disorganized schizophrenia, often are superficial and have an obsession with religion and philosophy that deters them from approaching life with other than a telescopic view.. they can't discuss their beliefs with any sort of dexterity so they rely on quotes, hoping the reader will decipher what he may. And tend to suffer cognitive conservatism.
There is no rational to what you are doing here.. You are not even charming about it.

I am not sure of the relevance of your quotes and questionnaire so unless you have a direction to this, an interfaith growth type thing, I am afraid you won't get very far.


cheers
Reply

MartyrX
01-28-2008, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
i dont think you've answered my question. I suspect you are hiding something from me.
:lol: Wow what nerve.
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 06:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
you know I am starting to worry about you..
People suffering from disorganized schizophrenia, often are superficial and have an obsession with religion and philosophy that deters them from approaching life with other than a telescopic view.. they can't discuss their beliefs with any sort of dexterity so they rely on quotes, hoping the reader will decipher what he may. And tend to suffer cognitive conservatism.
There is no rational to what you are doing here.. You are not even charming about it.

I am not sure of the relevance of your quotes and questionnaire so unless you have a direction to this, an interfaith growth type thing, I am afraid you won't get very far.


cheers

well i'm basically here to show you what i believe and share my perspective on things. and defend my stand. I also want know about your faith which is also one of the main reasons why I joined this forum. So in short I am basically trying to think the way you guys think.
Reply

*Hana*
01-28-2008, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
well i'm basically here to show you what i believe and share my perspective on things. and defend my stand. I also want know about your faith which is also one of the main reasons why I joined this forum. So in short I am basically trying to think the way you guys think.
So, where do you suppose it all went wrong?

All I've seen you do is post verses with no rhyme nor reason. If you want to share and learn then you have to first learn how to discuss using your own mind and thoughts.

If you want to know our belief on a particular subject, simply ask. But, don't post a novel of verses and expect a response. Just talk (type), simple. :)

Hana
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
So, where do you suppose it all went wrong?

All I've seen you do is post verses with no rhyme nor reason. If you want to share and learn then you have to first learn how to discuss using your own mind and thoughts.

If you want to know our belief on a particular subject, simply ask. But, don't post a novel of verses and expect a response. Just talk (type), simple. :)

Hana

Well if in case you didnt know I have been doing that. for the past couple of days. I started a new subject yesterday and I wanted a Muslim perpective. In any case this is a refutation section. So my position over here is to defend. I dont know but I think PurestAmbrosa or whoever it may be posted a testimony of a Muslim who converted from Chrsitianity. It was a long post. And in that I saw a few refrences that go out of context and lessen the diety of Christ. So I just wanted to correct those arguments biblically. I dont see what wrong I am doing here.
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Well if in case you didnt know I have been doing that. for the past couple of days.
I don't think that is what you were doing..

I started a new subject yesterday and I wanted a Muslim perpective.
Bur you really don't... you want to commandeer every topic so you may show people the 'error of their ways' neglecting your own error in the process, which many have been pointing out to you
In any case this is a refutation section. So my position over here is to defend.
You should read then about the section before posting
  • Refutations Here you can post allegations leveled against Islam and discuss them. Decent refutals/rebuttals are published on the website. Articles produced by prominent Muslim debaters are welcome


I dont know but I think PurestAmbrosa or whoever it may be posted a testimony of a Muslim who converted from Chrsitianity.
Yes it was me..

It was a long post. And in that I saw a few refrences that go out of context and lessen the diety of Christ. So I just wanted to correct those arguments biblically. I dont see what wrong I am doing here.
You didn't correct by way of cutting passages that have no relevance to the topic. You can't correct another person's point of view.. what are you basing it on, obviousely not everyone thinks along the same tracts you do? I see that even other christians on board don't agree with you, I'll reference you to http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post905376

Why not start correcting the error of your christian brethrens before tackling those who left all that confusion behind for Islam?
peace!
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 09:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't think that is what you were doing..

Bur you really don't... you want to commandeer every topic so you may show people the 'error of their ways' neglecting your own error in the process, which many have been pointing out to you

You should read then about the section before posting
  • Refutations Here you can post allegations leveled against Islam and discuss them. Decent refutals/rebuttals are published on the website. Articles produced by prominent Muslim debaters are welcome



Yes it was me..


You didn't correct by way of cutting passages that have no relevance to the topic. You can't correct another person's point of view.. what are you basing it on, obviousely not everyone thinks along the same tracts you do? I see that even other christians on board don't agree with you, I'll reference you to http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post905376

Why not start correcting the error of your christian brethrens before tackling those who left all that confusion behind for Islam?
peace!
Which is what I feel I did. The Bible tells me to correct the fault of my brethren if he errs from the truth. If I err from the truth I deserve rebuke. In love we will correct them in rebuke. If they dont hearken then we will treat them as any other pagan.

Well I'm sorry if I did not hearken to your rules. It was an honest mistake from me, I confess. In any case I want to question. I posted an article which was against Christianity which is much to the benifit for you guys. So what I did was breaking the rule or being generous to you guys. If a criminal breaks the law, and the law maker has to punish him, if he forgives him, would that be slated as generosity or unfair treatment?

If dont persons point of veiw goes against my point of veiw. then either I'm wrong or he's wrong. So dont I have every right to back up my stand with reason and justify my belief.
I will not say I am right all the time and everyone else's belief is wrong. I make mistakes, I screw up sometimes too. But just because that person gives his point of veiw does that mean his point of veiw is correct only?
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 09:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Which is what I feel I did. The Bible tells me to correct the fault of my brethren if he errs from the truth. If I err from the truth I deserve rebuke. In love we will correct them in rebuke. If they dont hearken then we will treat them as any other pagan.
You do that then... treat them as pagans because I don't see them conforming to your thought process any time soon

peace
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 09:22 PM
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...tml#post904947

PurestAmbrosa this is a new thread I started yesterday.
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 09:30 PM
seems interesting. I believe you to have a few correspondents.

peace
Reply

john316
01-28-2008, 10:41 PM
Well I'm sorry if I did not hearken to your rules. It was an honest mistake from me, I confess. In any case I want to question. I posted an article which was against Christianity which is much to the benifit for you guys. So what I did was breaking the rule or being generous to you guys. If a you as a criminal breaks the law, and the law maker has to punish you, if he forgives you, would that be slated as generosity or unfair treatment?

If dont persons point of veiw goes against my point of veiw. then either I'm wrong or he's wrong. So dont I have every right to back up my stand with reason and justify my belief.
I will not say I am right all the time and everyone else's belief is wrong. I make mistakes, I screw up sometimes too. But just because that person gives his point of veiw does that mean his point of veiw is correct only?
Reply

*Hana*
01-28-2008, 10:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Well I'm sorry if I did not hearken to your rules. It was an honest mistake from me, I confess. In any case I want to question. I posted an article which was against Christianity which is much to the benifit for you guys. So what I did was breaking the rule or being generous to you guys. If a you as a criminal breaks the law, and the law maker has to punish you, if he forgives you, would that be slated as generosity or unfair treatment?

If dont persons point of veiw goes against my point of veiw. then either I'm wrong or he's wrong. So dont I have every right to back up my stand with reason and justify my belief.
I will not say I am right all the time and everyone else's belief is wrong. I make mistakes, I screw up sometimes too. But just because that person gives his point of veiw does that mean his point of veiw is correct only?
Ummmmm what?????? :mmokay:

Being generous to us guys by posting an anti-Christian site? ^o)

In case you haven't noticed, we don't need anti-Christian sites to discuss our faith and to explain why we feel it is the truth. For your own sake, please read more on the forum before you continue to post like we've never heard of Christianity before. :uhwhat

I really can't figure you out. :hmm:
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جوري
01-28-2008, 10:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Well I'm sorry if I did not hearken to your rules. It was an honest mistake from me, I confess. In any case I want to question. I posted an article which was against Christianity which is much to the benifit for you guys. So what I did was breaking the rule or being generous to you guys. If a you as a criminal breaks the law, and the law maker has to punish you, if he forgives you, would that be slated as generosity or unfair treatment?

If dont persons point of veiw goes against my point of veiw. then either I'm wrong or he's wrong. So dont I have every right to back up my stand with reason and justify my belief.
I will not say I am right all the time and everyone else's belief is wrong. I make mistakes, I screw up sometimes too. But just because that person gives his point of veiw does that mean his point of veiw is correct only?
what are you trying to say? use less archaic terms and utilitarian analogies!

peace
Reply

جوري
01-28-2008, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Ummmmm what?????? :mmokay:

:
lol.. are you having fun yet? I too shall post something which might be relevant, might not, but left for the reader to decipher what he may..
except it is alot more serene and peaceful than I have come to experience in the last two or three pages...
:w:

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*Hana*
01-28-2008, 11:22 PM
Mashallah my sister, so beautiful!! :statisfie
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جوري
01-28-2008, 11:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Mashallah my sister, so beautiful!! :statisfie
Then you are sure to enjoy this one too insha'Allah

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:w:
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*Hana*
01-28-2008, 11:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Then you are sure to enjoy this one too insha'Allah

:w:
Jazak Allah Khair for posting that. I enjoyed it very much, mashallah. :statisfie
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AvarAllahNoor
01-28-2008, 11:39 PM
I must say even I have enjoyed the above. Comforting
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*Hana*
01-28-2008, 11:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
I must say even I have enjoyed the above. Comforting
The Reciter has a beautiful, calming voice, Mashallah.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-28-2008, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
The Reciter has a beautiful, calming voice, Mashallah.
Indeed. I enjoy some of the Nasheeds too.
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جوري
01-29-2008, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Jazak Allah Khair for posting that. I enjoyed it very much, mashallah. :statisfie
My pleasure.. I especially love suret Al waqi3a from verse 57-->
Love how he repeats the verse twice, the first with an assurance and the other with tenderness.. then poses the simple questions that all human beings should reflect deeply on...

Anyhow I have quite a collection.. I have the most amazing recitation of suret al-mursalaat, but I have no idea how the sheikh is?..

Barka Allah feeki ukhty..

:w:
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snakelegs
01-29-2008, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Indeed. I enjoy some of the Nasheeds too.
have you heard this one? (sorry i don't know how to put it up here directly)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gv-p-jVNrtw

i've been listening to this one for the last several days - it is sooooo beautiful.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-29-2008, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
Have you heard this one? (sorry i don't know how to put it up here directly)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gv-p-jVNrtw

i've been listening to this one for the last several days - it is sooooo beautiful.
Yeah, it's great. Chap has a soothing voice like Sant Baba Niranjhan Singh Ji :statisfie
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*Hana*
01-29-2008, 12:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
have you heard this one? (sorry i don't know how to put it up here directly)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gv-p-jVNrtw

i've been listening to this one for the last several days - it is sooooo beautiful.
Ohhh I love this!! Beautiful voice!!
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snakelegs
01-29-2008, 12:52 AM
his name is talib al-habib and there are more of his nasheeds here

http://www.load-islam.com/multimedia...d=93&ncat_id=1

that one is called kalimataan and as far as i can tell, it's the only one he does that has no english. i don't know why, but i can get "into "subhan Allah" in a way that "praise God" just doesn't do it.
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*Hana*
01-29-2008, 01:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
his name is talib al-habib and there are more of his nasheeds here

http://www.load-islam.com/multimedia...d=93&ncat_id=1

that one is called kalimataan and as far as i can tell, it's the only one he does that has no english. i don't know why, but i can get "into "subhan Allah" in a way that "praise God" just doesn't do it.
Oh, thanks for the link!! :peace:
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john316
01-30-2008, 03:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
John:

FYI: The 5 daily prayers, paying Zakat, Fasting during the holy month of Ramadan, are 3 of the 5 pillars of Islam. And is ordained for all Muslims. Good deeds are something totally different. Unless you consider attending church and worshiping God a good deed rather than something ordained for you?

Just to remind you that the Catholics were some of the first followers of Christ and Protestants came later....Born Agains, Mormons, etc., MUCH MUCH later, like 1800+ years later! The Coptic Christians have been around since the life time of Jesus, pbuh, and are still around so please be careful of your choice of words.

It never fails to amaze me how some sects of Christianity claim to have found the absolute truth 1800 years AFTER Jesus, pbuh, and have no problem condemning millions and millions before them to Hell....including, I might add, the very Apostles of Jesus, pbuh.

You said you don't belong to any particular denomination?? Hmmmm, care to explain that? The church you say you attend is called the "church of no denomination"? Which version of the bible are you reading these days, maybe we can help you to determine which denomination you are following. You sound to me like to believe in the ideology of Born Again Christians.

Peace
Hana

Well let me start off by saying 'born again' is not a denomination. even though i thought of it to be as a former catholic. beling born again is a term that alludes to spiritual birth or regeneration. this ought to have been practicesd by FEW and I mean FEW in the first 1500 until the protestant reformation. You have born agains who are pentencostal, born agains who are charismatics. i mean to be Christian you need to be born again or regenerated. It's just repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. As such we ought to walk in obedience, just because you may follow a certain denomaination that need not think in my terms that need not mean that they are condemned. I feel these 100 different protestant denominations are kinda ideologies. Some denomination may have that doctirne of Once Saved Always Saved. or some other ideolody like Calvinism. But I believe in conditional security, conditinal grace, We keep the commandments because we love God. and is a result of our transformation. Keeping the commandments dont save you because we still believe Christ is the end of out righteosness.
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*Hana*
01-30-2008, 04:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Well let me start off by saying 'born again' is not a denomination. even though i thought of it to be as a former catholic. beling born again is a term that alludes to spiritual birth or regeneration. this ought to have been practicesd by FEW and I mean FEW in the first 1500 until the protestant reformation. You have born agains who are pentencostal, born agains who are charismatics. i mean to be Christian you need to be born again or regenerated. It's just repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. As such we ought to walk in obedience, just because you may follow a certain denomaination that need not think in my terms that need not mean that they are condemned. I feel these 100 different protestant denominations are kinda ideologies. Some denomination may have that doctirne of Once Saved Always Saved. or some other ideolody like Calvinism. But I believe in conditional security, conditinal grace, We keep the commandments because we love God. and is a result of our transformation. Keeping the commandments dont save you because we still believe Christ is the end of out righteosness.
So, to put it simply, you're a Born Again. :mmokay:

And not that I care...I don't. But, hey, if you're not proud of your denomination and want to share what that is....okie dokie.

Ta Ta,
Hana
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john316
01-30-2008, 04:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
So, to put it simply, you're a Born Again. :mmokay:

And not that I care...I don't. But, hey, if you're not proud of your denomination and want to share what that is....okie dokie.

Ta Ta,
Hana
heck no I am not proud of my beliefs. The gospel is open is everyone who has a ear. It doesnt matter where you are, who are are, Muslim, Hindu, Cathloics, Mormon, whosover repents towards God and put their faith in His Son, he gets to be a son of God(John 1:12).
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john316
01-30-2008, 04:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
So, to put it simply, you're a Born Again. :mmokay:

And not that I care...I don't. But, hey, if you're not proud of your denomination and want to share what that is....okie dokie.

Ta Ta,
Hana
heck no I am not proud of my beliefs. The gospel is open is everyone who has a ear. It doesnt matter where you are, who are are, Muslim, Hindu, Cathloics, Mormon, whosover repents towards God and put their faith in His Son, he gets to be a son of God(John 1:12).

Matthew 18:3
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
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Woodrow
01-30-2008, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
heck no I am not proud of my beliefs. The gospel is open is everyone who has a ear. It doesnt matter where you are, who are are, Muslim, Hindu, Cathloics, Mormon, whosover repents towards God and put their faith in His Son, he gets to be a son of God(John 1:12).

Matthew 18:3
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Peace John,

You may not believe this, but reading through your posts I notice that your views are very similar to ours. i would say the only thing stopping you from seeing the truth is your stubbornness at refusing to accept Jesus(as) as the beautiful Prophet(PBUH) he is and step over to learning what he did teach and not what was taught about him.
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john316
01-30-2008, 04:36 PM
Muhammad also came 500 years after Jesus. Joseph Smith Jr. came 1800 years about Jesus. They also supposedly spoke about Jesus.
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*Hana*
01-30-2008, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
heck no I am not proud of my beliefs. The gospel is open is everyone who has a ear. It doesnt matter where you are, who are are, Muslim, Hindu, Cathloics, Mormon, whosover repents towards God and put their faith in His Son, he gets to be a son of God(John 1:12).

Matthew 18:3
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Sorry to hear that.

I am extremely proud of my Islamic faith, I feel extremely blessed to have been guided to Islam and so incredibly thankful I am still being guided. I love my brothers and sisters in Islam so much I want to cry when they are sad and hurt when they are hurting. Alhamdulillah for everything. :statisfie

Inshallah, (God willing), you will come to feel the same about your own beliefs some day. :)

Hana
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john316
01-30-2008, 05:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Sorry to hear that.

I am extremely proud of my Islamic faith, I feel extremely blessed to have been guided to Islam and so incredibly thankful I am still being guided. I love my brothers and sisters in Islam so much I want to cry when they are sad and hurt when they are hurting. Alhamdulillah for everything. :statisfie

Inshallah, (God willing), you will come to feel the same about your own beliefs some day. :)

Hana
Well it's not really about pleasing yourself or pleasing others or making yourself proud. It's about pleasing God first above pleasing men.
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*Hana*
01-30-2008, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Well it's not really about pleasing yourself or pleasing others or making yourself proud. It's about pleasing God first above pleasing men.
And, once again, you miss the point and your comment has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted. ^o)

Anyway, whatever. lol
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john316
01-30-2008, 05:28 PM
well i apologize for missing your point :) i'm human we are all human we all make small mistakes.
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*Hana*
01-30-2008, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
Hebrews 12:14
[ Warning Against Refusing God ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

That's just one verse.

I think 11 out of the 12 diciples(John was the exception) lost their lives for their professin on Christ.
And how does this answer the question?????
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john316
01-30-2008, 06:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
And how does this answer the question?????
I'm sorry I didnt get your question......
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YusufNoor
01-30-2008, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

here's a little excerpt of a previous post:
the VAST MAJORITY of Prophets that we have knowledge of ALL descendants of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam, and are now generally[though not always correctly] called Jews. so if we want to determine what "their" message was, Jewish sources would be pretty reliable. here's a snippet from Rabbi Nosson Scherman in his "An Overview/ Ezra - Molder of a New Era" which serves as an introduction to The Book Ezra / A New Translation With A Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic And Rabbinic Sources with Translation and Commentary by Rabbi Yosef Rabinowitz:

The First Temple and the Jewish nation - both the Ten Tribes of Samaria and the Kingdom of Judah - had crumbled spiritually because of the sin of idolatry. ALL THE PROPHETS FROM MOSES ONWARD HAD WARNED ELOQUENTLY AND STRENUOUSLY ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF THIS CARDINAL SIN. Nevertheless, Israel succumbed, with the result that it was banished from it land and nearly destroyed as a people.
...why should there have been such an obsessive passion for [idolatry] that even the Prophets were ignored and murdered in the people's headlong passion to choose strange gods and pagan ceremonies over the ONE GOD and His Torah?
(emphasis mine)

so, the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!! AND this message is for ALL TIMES!! which by the way is :one single proof of existence of islam before Muhammed's times."

to recap: ALL THE PROPHETS FROM MOSES ONWARD HAD WARNED ELOQUENTLY AND STRENUOUSLY ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF [IDOLATRY] thus the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!!

now, YOU WROTE:



So i ask, show me which of the Prophets in the Tanakh came to Israel and said, "I am God, worship me!" Take your time and look. We'll wait...

:w:
:sl:

are you ever going to answer this one as well?

:w:
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*Hana*
01-30-2008, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
I'm sorry I didnt get your question......
:mmokay: It wasn't my question...it was a question from someone else and that was the response you gave...which didn't answer the question at all. Like my wonderful sister PurestAmbrosia, I'm beginning to worry about you.

Hana
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john316
01-30-2008, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
:mmokay: It wasn't my question...it was a question from someone else and that was the response you gave...which didn't answer the question at all. Like my wonderful sister PurestAmbrosia, I'm beginning to worry about you.

Hana
i did answer the question later on. I apologized for overreading the question. it was a genuine mistake.
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AntiKarateKid
01-30-2008, 11:28 PM
You cannot honestly be comparing Joseph Smith to the prophet. Even a cursory glance over their works, their lives, their behavior and deeds will shatter this comparison.
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AvarAllahNoor
01-30-2008, 11:43 PM
Oooh John Sir, do you think I'll be allowed to enter Heaven...?
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john316
02-01-2008, 04:24 PM
only those who want to fellowship with God or want to be as holy as He is Holy will be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. He will not accept homosexuals, masturbators, fornicators, adultors, heretics, liars, prideful, covetous, murderers, rebellious, theives, idolaters, false prophets in Jesus' name, godless people who turn God's grace into a license to immorality
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*Hana*
02-01-2008, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
only those who want to fellowship with God or want to be as holy as He is Holy will be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. He will not accept homosexuals, masturbators, fornicators, adultors, heretics, liars, prideful, covetous, murderers, rebellious, theives, idolaters, false prophets in Jesus' name, godless people who turn God's grace into a license to immorality
You really believe a creation of God can be as Holy as God Himself??:uuh:

Alrighty then. :muddlehea
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MartyrX
02-01-2008, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by john316
only those who want to fellowship with God or want to be as holy as He is Holy will be allowed to enter the kingdom of heaven. He will not accept homosexuals, masturbators, fornicators, adultors, heretics, liars, prideful, covetous, murderers, rebellious, theives, idolaters, false prophets in Jesus' name, godless people who turn God's grace into a license to immorality
So basically everyone who has ever walked this planet.
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AntiKarateKid
04-11-2008, 08:51 PM
Hmm... my turn to resurrect a thread!

I am friends with an person who wen from being Christian to agnostic back to Christianity but he says that he feels confused as to what to do. FOr example, he feels out of touch in the manner of praying in Churches ( getting on your knee and such i believe?). If Jesus was God, why didn't he give people set ways of praying to him?

I'm coming here in the faith of scholarly discussion, no venom, nothing. Just wondering.
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*Hana*
04-11-2008, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Hmm... my turn to resurrect a thread!

I am friends with an person who wen from being Christian to agnostic back to Christianity but he says that he feels confused as to what to do. FOr example, he feels out of touch in the manner of praying in Churches ( getting on your knee and such i believe?). If Jesus was God, why didn't he give people set ways of praying to him?

I'm coming here in the faith of scholarly discussion, no venom, nothing. Just wondering.
Salam Alaikum:

Well, actually there are examples of how He prayed...here are two.

“Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” (Mark 1:35)

“Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will’” (Matthew 26:39).

Wasalam,

Hana
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barney
04-11-2008, 10:22 PM
I dont know.

Answeringchristianity was a website responding to --------------.

Answering Islam is a anti islamic site.
Following a link from that site might take you to --------------.
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-11-2008, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I dont know.

Answeringchristianity was a website responding to --------------.

Answering Islam is a anti islamic site.
Following a link from that site might take you to --------------.
Greetings Barney.

Thats right. Answering Islam is anti-islamic and it is not worth to look at this site.
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barney
04-11-2008, 10:27 PM
Meh, bit late for me. ive read it all cover to cover years ago. Answering christianity too!
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FatimaAsSideqah
04-11-2008, 10:30 PM
^ :rollseyes but you do realised it now.
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AntiKarateKid
04-11-2008, 11:54 PM
The stuff you quoted about Esa praying was.... vague at best. Nothing against you though. Thanks!
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*Hana*
04-12-2008, 02:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
The stuff you quoted about Esa praying was.... vague at best. Nothing against you though. Thanks!
lol yeah, but I'm sure if you researched you'd find tons more. I just gave the 2 I could remember and was too lazy to look up more to be honest. :-[

I'll look for more tomorrow. lol

Wasalam,
Hana
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Keltoi
04-12-2008, 04:42 AM
The Christian faith is more internalized than Islam. We don't believe set methods of prayer are as important as the content of that prayer, which comes from the inside or from the spirit. By that, I don't mean Islamic prayers are any less pious, just that Christianity doesn't emphasize ritual prayer postures.

As for how Christ prayed, there is no literal description of His methods. The point was the nature of prayer, and the need for those of faith to do so sincerely.
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AceTCK
04-12-2008, 05:03 AM
hi,

Can I know what type of Christian you are, denomination if you don't mind?
The reason Iam asking is because, like you know Catholics use intermediates to communicate with God, and if Iam not mistaken they are not the only ones that do that, so your comment about Christianity being more internalized would not be correct
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barney
04-12-2008, 05:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
The Christian faith is more internalized than Islam. We don't believe set methods of prayer are as important as the content of that prayer, which comes from the inside or from the spirit. By that, I don't mean Islamic prayers are any less pious, just that Christianity doesn't emphasize ritual prayer postures.

As for how Christ prayed, there is no literal description of His methods. The point was the nature of prayer, and the need for those of faith to do so sincerely.

So you could pray whilst riding a unicycle and wearing Clowns shoes, but if the prayer was earnest and in good faith, the spinning bow tie wouldnt matter. yep?
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MustafaMc
04-12-2008, 12:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AntiKarateKid
Hmm... my turn to resurrect a thread!

I am friends with an person who wen from being Christian to agnostic back to Christianity but he says that he feels confused as to what to do. For example, he feels out of touch in the manner of praying in Churches ( getting on your knee and such i believe?). If Jesus was God, why didn't he give people set ways of praying to him?

I'm coming here in the faith of scholarly discussion, no venom, nothing. Just wondering.
In addition to the examples that Sister Hana Aku gave, I thought of a couple more.

The first is the "Lord's Prayer" where Jesus instructed the disciples on how to pray to God, their "Father". I personally see a similarity between this prayer and al-Fatiha in the Islamic prayer.

Matthew 6:5-13
And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee. And in praying use not vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

A passage in Luke teaches the disciples to avoid self-righteousness and arrogance in prayer and to humbly ask for God's Mercy. Also, in Islam, to pray or worship Allah in order to be praised by man or to be thought of as pious by others is a form of shirk.

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get. But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner. I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
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Keltoi
04-12-2008, 02:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AceTCK
hi,

Can I know what type of Christian you are, denomination if you don't mind?
The reason Iam asking is because, like you know Catholics use intermediates to communicate with God, and if Iam not mistaken they are not the only ones that do that, so your comment about Christianity being more internalized would not be correct
I don't think you fully understood what I meant by internalized, but in any event, I've been a member of various denominations over the years. I was born a Presbyterian, went Baptist, then Methodist, and now non-denominational.

As for Catholics using "intermediates", I doubt they would agree with you. I would say that Protestant Christianity is more internalized that Catholicism, primarily due to the amount of ritual tradition involved.
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Keltoi
04-12-2008, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
So you could pray whilst riding a unicycle and wearing Clowns shoes, but if the prayer was earnest and in good faith, the spinning bow tie wouldnt matter. yep?
You might have been using sarcasm, but in a general sense that is correct from a Christian perspective. Although many times one would choose to pray in a more traditional setting and in a more traditional way, probably because one can focus and think more clearly when not riding a unicycle. :D
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barney
04-12-2008, 02:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
You might have been using sarcasm, .... one can focus and think more clearly when not riding a unicycle. :D
Not meaning to offend old chap, just my flip side coming out.:D
I suppose I was contrasting the deadly seriousness of some faiths with the flexibility of others.
Not that either is wrong in my opinion.:)
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AbuSalahudeen
04-12-2008, 03:15 PM
Salam,

Alhamdulilah Muslims know Jesus more than Christians
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Keltoi
04-12-2008, 03:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AbuSalahudeen
Salam,

Alhamdulilah Muslims know Jesus more than Christians
Their version of Jesus anyway, no offense.
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MustafaMc
04-12-2008, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I don't think you fully understood what I meant by internalized, but in any event, I've been a member of various denominations over the years. I was born a Presbyterian, went Baptist, then Methodist, and now non-denominational.

As for Catholics using "intermediates", I doubt they would agree with you. I would say that Protestant Christianity is more internalized that Catholicism, primarily due to the amount of ritual tradition involved.
Perhaps a better word than internalized would be personalized. From my perspective, prayer in Christianity is more personalized as opposed to ritualized worship of God. I believe that the more religious Christians have the habit of saying a prayer of blessing at meal times and prayer of supplication for self, family and friends before going to bed. Even prayer during congregational meetings is more personal with whatever comes to the mind of the one leading the prayer. I congregational prayer the rituals include standing, bowing the head and closing the eyes.

Regarding intermediaries, I believe that Christians approach the Father through Jesus because they often end the prayer with, "In the name of Your Son, Jesus." However, sometimes they intermix praying to the Father and to Jesus in the same prayer. I know little about Catholicisms, but I know that in addition to Jesus, Mary and the saints are supplicated to for help. Wikipedia.com "A saint may be designated as a patron saint of particular causes or professions, or invoked against specific illnesses or disasters. They are not thought to have power of their own, but only that granted by God." Although they don't intend it, In Islam supplication to others besides Allah is shirk.
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MustafaMc
04-12-2008, 03:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Their version of Jesus anyway, no offense.
You are exactly right. Our beliefs about both Jesus and Muhammad to a large extent delineates the differences between Jews, Christians and Muslims.

If I may be so bold as to speak for others....

The Jew believes that both Jesus and Muhammad were basically good men, but nothing more than that.

The Christian believes that Jesus is the Son of God and at the same time God incarnate and that Muhammad was a good man, but not a prophet.

The Muslim believes that Jesus and Muhammad were Prophets and Messengers of God (the most honored position among men) with Muhammad bringing the final revelation that superseded what came before.
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glo
04-12-2008, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The Muslim believes that Jesus and Muhammad were Prophets and Messengers of God (the most honored position among men) with Muhammad bringing the final revelation that superseded what came before.
Greetings Mustafa

I always thought that Muslims believed the revelations given by God through all prophets were identical, but got lost and/or were distorted; and that the revelation given to Muhammed was the same as the previous ones - the final one, which followers were to ensure would not be altered.

Your post gives the impression that Muhammed's revelation was different to the previous ones, and that it replaced them.

Can you please clarify? Thank you. :)
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Muslim Woman
04-12-2008, 04:02 PM
Salaam/peace;

format_quote Originally Posted by john316
.... demonize Jesus in this site saying that he is a child killer.

heard it for the first time.

Muslims believe Jesus (p) is a blessed Prophet of God Almighty .

Please read holy Quran , you will be surprised to see how so many verses are there about both Jesus (p) & his dear mom & how both of them are highly respected in Islam .
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Muslim Woman
04-12-2008, 04:12 PM
Salaam/peace;


format_quote Originally Posted by glo
.....Your post gives the impression that Muhammed's revelation was different to the previous ones, and that it replaced them.
.

don't know what the bro meant ...here is a short explanation of mine :)



something were allowed in the past i.e. alcohol , later forbidden regarding Quran.

There was no limit for men's having wives ....Quran fixed a limit ...maximum four.

Most probably camel meat was forbidden for Jews but Muslims were allowed to eat that.

Sabath was prescribed for Jews , not for Muslims.


So , about some rules , gradually those changed . But All holy books & holy Prophets (pbut ) taught people that God is One . That's the most imp message in holy books.



Regarding holy books , blashphemy is the most major sin.....these imp lessons are same in all holy books & will remain unchanged till the last day.

take care sis :)
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MustafaMc
04-12-2008, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Greetings Mustafa

I always thought that Muslims believed the revelations given by God through all prophets were identical, but got lost and/or were distorted; and that the revelation given to Muhammed was the same as the previous ones - the final one, which followers were to ensure would not be altered.

Your post gives the impression that Muhammed's revelation was different to the previous ones, and that it replaced them.

Can you please clarify? Thank you. :)
Yes, Glo, you make a good point. We Muslims believe that the message that all prophets brought was belief in One God and to be obedient to His Will. To clarify my statement, "Muhammad bringing the final revelation that superseded what came before" means that the Qur'an was the last revelation from God and that it replaced what remnants were left of the revelations to Moses, David and Jesus because they had been lost and/or contaminated by man. We believe there are bits and pieces of these previous revelations that are still in the Bible, but that it is very difficult to discern what is authentic and what is not. The messages were the same in basic beliefs but differed in the application. One example is found in these 2 passages:

Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Qur'an 42:40 The recompense for an injury is an injury proportionate to it; but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation he shall be rewarded by Allah; He does not like the wrongdoers.

Another point of revelation is the interpretation and application of the Qur'an by Prophet Muhammad in what we know as the Sunnah. The Sunnah establishes the details for the application of faith to our lives, for example how to pray.
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glo
04-12-2008, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
Salaam/peace;
heard it for the first time.

Muslims believe Jesus (p) is a blessed Prophet of God Almighty .

Please read holy Quran , you will be surprised to see how so many verses are there about both Jesus (p) & his dear mom & how both of them are highly respected in Islam .
That's the reason why I refuse to visit sites such as -------------- or AnsweringChristianity.
Such sites are so biased towards their own beliefs, and trying so desperately hard to discredit the other, that they are very damaging sites for those who seek to find common ground or a harmonious co-existance with other faiths.

I find it deeply sad to think that people should feel the need to turn to such sites at all ... :(
Why do people feel the need to undermine the faith of others? Is it to boost their own faith?

Why can we not acknowledge and appreciate to good in other religions?
I don't understand ...
We don't have to see each other as enemies!!!
(See this thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...tml#post926850)

If we allow the hate-mongerers of -------------- and AnsweringChristianty to influence our thinking in such a way, then we are following their human will rather than God's!
Reply

glo
04-12-2008, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, Glo, you make a good point. We Muslims believe that the message that all prophets brought was belief in One God and to be obedient to His Will. To clarify my statement, "Muhammad bringing the final revelation that superseded what came before" means that the Qur'an was the last revelation from God and that it replaced what remnants were left of the revelations to Moses, David and Jesus because they had been lost and/or contaminated by man. We believe there are bits and pieces of these previous revelations that are still in the Bible, but that it is very difficult to discern what is authentic and what is not. The messages were the same in basic beliefs but differed in the application. One example is found in these 2 passages:

Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil: but whosoever smiteth thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Qur'an 42:40 The recompense for an injury is an injury proportionate to it; but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation he shall be rewarded by Allah; He does not like the wrongdoers.

Another point of revelation is the interpretation and application of the Qur'an by Prophet Muhammad in what we know as the Sunnah. The Sunnah establishes the details for the application of faith to our lives, for example how to pray.
Thank you for the clarification.
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