Debate: Athiest's VS Christians VS Muslim

[truemuslim]

:sl:

This is a DEBATE so feel free to post anything about the subject as long as you pay attention to the rules...RULES...DEBATE...just keep that in mind.kk..anyway this thread is gonna be closed in a day or two so say what u can before it closes..lol..

DEBATE...

SUBJECT: anything you want to ask or something like that about the other religions you know just debate..ur all debaters..almost..

RULES:
NO Racism or anything against the other religions in ANY way
NO Getting off topic
NO Harrasment
NO Bad or disturbing links
NO Giving the mods on this thread any opportunity to close it...
NO Bad jokes...wait this isnt a joke thread its a debate!

AND THE WORST ONE THAT YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO DO EVER!!! IS...

NO Negative repping the owner of this thread...please?

Okey lets begin whenevr the first person comes..kk

DEBATE...ON :statisfie :w:

[snakelegs]

i'm an agnostic who really has no interest in promoting my point of view to anyone else. so i'm not fit for debate! good luck anyway.

[wilberhum]

i'm an agnostic who really has no interest in promoting my point of view to anyone else. so i'm not fit for debate! good luck anyway.

I guess agnostics are just not fit to debate with. :D

[Gator]

For brevities sake, I'll just give an agnostics answer to any question posed -

"Oh I don't know."

There done with the agnostics.

[Just kidding Snake et al. :)]

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[truemuslim]

Check again gator... btw its not a joke thread lol its a debate..no one tells jokes at a debate.

[snakelegs]

I guess agnostics are just not fit to debate with. :D

some seem to be.

[truemuslim]

there! i changed the title..no more agnostics.. okey..now lets continue..or shud i say..start


ok its 1:45 here so i gotta go to bed..school tomorrow..fajr prayer...LI...lots to do.. inshallah i wont wake up wit a huge fight on here..maybe i shud get an owl to take care of this thread while i sleep..or a person who is awake in there part of the world while my part is night.lol

plzplz plz plz plz noooo fightS!!

[guyabano]

I know I know, you're going to hate me for this as I'm offtopic. But did you use the 'search' of the forum to see, how many threads like this exist already ?
Since you are only a member since NOV 2007, you cannot know that. But try to do a search, you will see

Peace

[truemuslim]

^ oh...uhh...well lets start one more..kk

[Whatsthepoint]

For brevities sake, I'll just give an agnostics answer to any question posed -

"Oh I don't know."

There done with the agnostics.

[Just kidding Snake et al. :)]

Some agnsotics, including myself, like to remind other people that their knowledge is limited as well.
Apart from that, we're left with dunno's and IMHO's..

[truemuslim]

okey we got athiests agnostics and no muslims? MUSLIMS WANTED PLEASE! we need a christian too dunt we

MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS WANTED

[Whatsthepoint]

Lol, you're a muslim, aren't you?
^o)
Propose a topic!:)

[truemuslim]

^ i want more muslims... fine...


athiests why do u believe no god exists?

just a quick question to make things happen

[truemuslim]

lets get this even mroe... hmm..

christians u believe jesus is son of god and yet u worship jesus...why?

agnostics... wait i cant ask a question about that for two reasons.. 1) agnostics dont debate like u said and 2) i dunt even kno what ur religion is..sorry

athiests... hmm.. i already asked: athiests why do u believe no god exists?

and muslims...wait im debating on the muslim side so i cant...hehe

[chacha_jalebi]

manz aka ME aka manz :D

moved this thread from general section to comparitive religion section

however im sure there have been many other threads like this, anyway continue peoplings

il be watchin *gives the suspicious look* :p

[truemuslim]

manz aka ME aka manz :D

moved this thread from general section to comparitive religion section

however im sure there have been many other threads like this, anyway continue peoplings

il be watchin *gives the suspicious look* :p

peoplings lol ./....LOL...

dude u freak me out lol..actually all mods do except woodrow.lol..i think...

*cough lets continue debatingwhen chaca is offline cough*

ignore me.. im the innocent thread starter...kk :w:

[truemuslim]

okey i just googled agnostics...lol...its 'not sure wether god exists or not' if this is right thennn...

agnostics: how arent u sure

p.s. i am purposly asking stuuupiidd questions that way ppl start sayin whta? bla bla bla ba bla no u see bla bla bla then in luke 12:45645 bla bla bla said bla bla bla and bla bla bla is like bla bla bla and bla bal bla

then more of these [quoties] bla bla bla luke 12:4564985 bla bla bla [quotes]
^ how is bla bla bla like bla bla bla and bla bla bla like bla bla bla tehn bla bla bla would be like bla bla bla and bla bal bla wud be like bla bla bla but didnt jesus say bla bla bla?
no bla bla bla jesus said bla bla bla and i said he said that u said bla bla bla but u said i said he said u said that he said bla bla bla and i never said bla bla bla so BLA BLA U LIL BLA BLA BLA AND *** (i dunt want any of ** tho..kk) bla bal bla and bla bla bla

kk

we wanna get a debate ON now duntwwe


just to tick u pplz off and get it really started


jesus didnt die on the cross
god exists
who worships somehting they made?
u have GOT to be kiddin me thats not even somehting to be sure about!

kk...now that u MIGHT (i hope) hav ur temps up get going!

[truemuslim]

*whispering* ok guys chaca is off..and no other mod is on...so come on lets debate then when i mod comes online we can use the fantastic 'edit' button lol..and make it ppeaaceful ...nah im kiddin 1) we all got invisible thingy so there can be like all the mods on right now and 2) i want it peace any way i gott another question...


Assuming an agnostic is someone who believes there is a higher power and that there is an existence of a life after death.

Is the reason you are agnositc because you haven't found a religion or belief structure (for lack of a better term) that meets your belief or you find credible? Do you still hold yourself accountable to the higher power you believe to exist, meaning avoid sin and such?

[john316]

Ok here is my summary of what I believe

THE SCRIPTURES. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.

GOD. There is but one God, the Maker, Preserver and Ruler of all things, having in and of Himself all perfections, and being infinite in them all; and to Him all creatures owe the highest love, reverence and obedience.

THE TRINITY. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

PROVIDENCE. God, from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs, and governs all creatures and all events; yet not in any way as to be the author or approver of sin nor to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

ELECTION. Election is God's eternal choice of some persons unto everlasting life-- not because of foreseen merit in them, but of his mere mercy in Christ-- in consequence of which choice they are called, justified and glorified.

THE FALL OF MAN. God originally created man in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, man transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby his posterity [i.e. descendants] inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law, are under condemnation, and as soon as they are capable of moral action, become actual transgressors.

THE MEDIATOR. Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is the divinely appointed mediator between God and man. Having taken upon Himself human nature, yet without sin, He perfectly fulfilled the law, suffered and died upon the cross for the salvation of sinners. He was buried, rose again on the third day, and ascended to His Father, at whose right hand He lives forever to make intercession for His people. He is the only Mediator, the Prophet, Priest, and King of the church, and Sovereign of the Universe.

REGENERATION. Regeneration is a change of heart, wrought by the Holy Spirit, who makes alive those who are dead in trespasses and sins, enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the Word of God, and renewing their whole nature, so that they love and practice holiness. It is a work of God’s free and special grace alone.

REPENTANCE. Repentance is an evangelical grace, wherein the Holy Spirit makes a person aware of the manifold evil of his sin, so that he humbles himself with godly sorrow, detesting sin, and abhorring [i.e., hating] self, with a purpose and endeavor to walk before God so as to please Him in all things.

FAITH. Saving faith is the belief, on God’s authority, of whatsoever is revealed in His Word concerning Christ; accepting and resting upon Him alone for justification and eternal life. It is wrought in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and is accompanied by all other saving grace, and leads to a life of holiness.

JUSTIFICATION. Justification is God’s gracious and full acquittal of sinners who believe in Christ, from all sin, through the satisfaction that Christ has made. It is given not for anything wrought in them or done by them, but on account of the obedience and satisfaction of Christ, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith.

SANCTIFICATION. Those who have been regenerated are also sanctified by God’s Word and Spirit dwelling in them. This sanctification is progressive through the supply of Divine strength, which all saints seek to obtain, pressing after a heavenly life in cordial [i.e., willing] obedience to all Christ’s commands.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS. Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere to the end; and though they may fall, through neglect and temptation, into sin, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, bring reproach on the Church, and temporal judgments on themselves, yet they shall be renewed again unto repentance, and be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

THE CHURCH. The Lord Jesus is the Head of the Church, which is composed of all His true disciples, and in Him is invested supremely all power for its government. According to His commandment, Christians are to associate themselves into particular societies or churches; and to each of these churches He has given needful authority for administering the order, discipline and worship which He has appointed. The regular officers of a church are Bishops (or Elders) and Deacons.

BAPTISM. Baptism is an ordinance of the Lord Jesus, obligatory upon every believer, wherein he is immersed in water in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, as a sign of his fellowship with the death and resurrection of Christ, of remission of sins, and of his giving himself up to God, to live and walk in newness of life.

THE LORD’S SUPPER. The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance of Jesus Christ, to be administered with bread and wine, and to be observed by His churches till the end of the world. It is in no sense a sacrifice, but is designed to commemorate His death, to confirm the faith of Christians, and to be a bond, pledge, and renewal of their communion with Him, and of their church fellowship.

THE LORD’S DAY. The New Testament Church gives the example of assembling on the Lord’s Day (i.e. Sunday) for the reading and teaching of the Word of God, worship, prayer, and mutual encouragement - stimulating one another to love and good deeds. It is fitting to view the Lord’s Day as a celebration of Christ’s resurrection and the redemption of His people.

LIBERTY OF CONSCIENCE. God alone is Lord of the conscience; and He hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are in anything contrary to His word, or not contained in it. Civil magistrates being ordained of God, subjection in all lawful things commanded by them ought to be yielded by us in the Lord, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

THE RESURRECTION. The bodies of men after death return to dust, but their spirits return immediately to God - the righteous to rest with Him; the wicked, to be reserved under darkness to judgment. At the last day, the bodies of all the dead, both just and unjust, will be raised.

THE JUDGMENT. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world by Jesus Christ, when every one shall receive according to his deeds: the wicked shall go into everlasting punishment; the righteous, into everlasting life.

[truemuslim]

^ u say there is only one god? what bout jesus?


p.s. thanks for finally getting this debate going

[john316]

Now we've got Christians, Muslims & Athiests, in this discussion

[truemuslim]

^ yep... im the only muslim and ur the only christians we the only ones ACTUALLY debating tho...lol :w: :)

[john316]

THE TRINITY. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

[truemuslim]

THE TRINITY. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

k im confused u saying that jesus is god the son of god and the holy spirit? just makin sure so i can continue

[john316]

The Word is about knowing God. So the Word is God. The Word became flesh as Jesus incarnate.(John 1:14). If you knew the Word you knew Jesus and thus knew God(John 14:7). God is a Spirit(John 4:24). And his Spirit reveals who He is in the Word(Matthew 16:17). Father, Word, and Spirit-these three are one.(1 John 5:7)

[truemuslim]

^ ok... BUT why would god be so low that he would have to come to earth in a human form? God is greatest isnt he? this makes him seem like he is equal with his own creation, doesn't it?

[john316]

He is still exalted. We believe He humbled himself because the sin is such a great abomination in his sight. His hatred for sin was so great that He who knew knew no sin became sin for us. His wrath was justifiable and too much for us to bear which is why He tasted His own holy wrath. All it takes is repentance to wards God and faith toward Jesus Christ.


In any case i belive in the Islamic account of Adam he repented for 40 days or did some kind of restitution and God forgave him.(Correct me if I'm wrong). Granted if that be the case. It wouldnt make sense to me because Adam's sin brought sin, suffering and death to the whole of mankind. So even Adam's repentance wasnt good enough cause his sin was so great.

[ranma1/2]

^ i want more muslims... fine...


athiests why do u believe no god exists?

just a quick question to make things happen

well the basic general answer is there is no evidence for any gods existence.
(except the gfsm of course)

of course a standard non contradictory def of "god" would help too.

[Trumble]

athiests why do u believe no god exists?

There are other reasons, but for me I think the principle one is the 'Problem of Evil' or, more specifically, the total failure of theists to posit even a half-credible solution (I find the idea of some sort of 'test' to be utterly ludicrous). I believe that if there were a totally benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God, he would have made a considerably better job of homo sapiens, i.e. in creating a species considerably less unpleasant. And that's quite apart from natural disasters... why do millions suffer because of those?

There is just too much pain and suffering in the world for there to be a God. At the risk of 'promotion' there is only one religion that exists specifically to present a solution to that problem, not just make excuses for it - mine.

[Gator]

athiests why do u believe no god exists?

Because most of the theories of existence involving a god don't reasonably explain, IMHO, my experience of the world and how my brain processes it.

These would include ran & t's points.

[Skavau]

athiests why do u believe no god exists?

For a general lack of evidence and reason to believe in a God, incoherent definitions of God and meaningless definitions of God.

[Trumble]

For a general lack of evidence and reason to believe in a God, incoherent definitions of God and meaningless definitions of God.

Would you not accept that, according to our theist friends' conception of God, coherent and meaningful definitions may not be possible? Everything we use in formulating such concepts, thought, reason, language, are limited by our own nature while God would be totally unlimited. In other words, God is just too big for our limited concepts to apply to?

I don't believe in God, of course, but as a Buddhist I don't have a problem with that as exactly the same applies to many Buddhist 'concepts'. They can never be definitively 'defined' or captured in reason or language, they have to be directly experienced. Until they are, you need faith to some degree. I often speculate that the actual religious experience (as opposed to merely reading or listening) of Buddhists and muslims or Christians is much the same, it is just interpreted differently according to different sets of equally limited concepts, ideas and language.

[Heera Singh]

For a general lack of evidence and reason to believe in a God, incoherent definitions of God and meaningless definitions of God.

so... you believe in only things which you have 'vision' or 'scientific' proof? so, to say, invisible things you don't believe (correct me if i'm wrong)..

i'll refer to an example i read once:

To see God is a very far off thing, even some of HIS creations are not visible. For example, there is chilly before you, but u can't see its bitterness. Surgar or some other sweet thing is near you, you cannot see its sweetness. There are many things which when seen outwardly look different but it has its hidden nature and merits..

Yes, your organs can only feel its taste and tell it, but they cannot see its inner nature. Example, there is milke before you, have you ever seen ghee (melted butter) in it? Even if you put your hand in the milk pot, u cannot bring out ghee and see it.

Even on testing it with your tongue, you cannot find the taste of ghee. But if a man who has boiled the milk and then at proper temperature has put a little bit of curd in it to fermentate and transform it into a whole lot of curd, then knows the method of churning it to bring out butter from it and then heating the butter at a proper temperature clears its way to form ghee; so, therefore, ghee is in the milk, so a person would be ignorant to say it cannot be seent, caught or touched and that there is no ghee. Only by going through this process a person will realize there is 'ghee' in milk, and until they have done this for themselves they do not know for sure.

Another example is given that fire is hidden in the wood, but has somebody seen it? never. It does not mean that 'we are unable to see the fire in the wood, so we don't accepts its latent existence'. If you wish to see the fire in the wood, then just take two pieces of dry bamboo sticks and rub them and the fire will be ignited.

Fire is present in the wood, but not visible; ghee is present in the milk, but cannot be seen; so God is omnipresent in the low and the high, in the rich and the poor, but we can not see as we have not got such eyes that can see fire in the wood and ghee in the milk.

Just as you will have to do some sort of labour to see ghee in milk or fire in the wood, you will have to do your own labour to see the Lord. These eyes only see so much, because they're 'foggy'. The stain on our souls and minds keep our vision secluded only to the materialistic. To see the Lord, we have to do labour to wash those sins off our soul and mind. How do we wash those sins? Sing the Lord's Praises.... Meditate on the formless lord... Serve the lord .. live a riteous and truthful life... and so on and so on..

You stated "incoherent definitions of God and meaningless definitions of God". You are somewhat correct in that statement. God cannot be defined. We can spend years and years and lifetimes and lifetimes trying to define the Greatness and the Glory of God... but we'll still never come to a finish. There is but One God, who created everything, and is everything; how can we define that? we cannot.. that does not mean that we shouldn't praise such a Glorious Creator.

"Priceless, O Priceless beyond expression! Speak of Him continually, and remain absorbed in His Love. The Vedas and the Puraanas speak. The scholars speak and lecture. Brahma speaks, Indra speaks (Hindu Goddesses). The Gopis and Krishna speak (Hindu Goddesses). Shiva speaks, the Siddhas speak. The many created Buddhas speak. The demons speak, the demi-gods speak. The spiritual warriors, the heavenly beings, the silent sages, the humble and serviceful speak. Many speak and try to describe Him. Many have spoken of Him over and over again, and have then arisen and departed. If He were to create as many again as there already are, even then, they could not describe Him. He is as Great as He wishes to be. O Nanak, the True Lord knows. If anyone presumes to describe God, he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||"

Written By Guru Nanak Dev Jee.

Bless!

[Pygoscelis]

I don't believe in the specific Gods religions name because it seems much more fitting to the facts that these people created these gods to suit them rather than the other way around. Religions look a lot like you'd expect them to look if they were made up to comfort and control people.

You can often trace god ideas through previous societies and see their secular origins. Noah was not the first to have a giant-boat-and-flood story. Jesus was not the first to purpotedly rise from the dead and ascend to heaven. The similarities between Jesus and Osiris and Mithras are actually pretty startling if you start to look into it, right down to number of days they did such and such etc.

These gods are given very human traits. They also always seem to communicate with us through "prophets" and "holy texts" which fits the need for a church to have official ideology, control and leadership, but also which a real all powerful god would not need. Rarely do common believers (rather than prophets, shamans or high priests) directly carry on interactive conversations with the Gods they believe in.

Religions look a lot like you'd expect them to look if they were made up to comfort and control people, so I find that idea fairly credible, especially when I find a complete lack of evidence to the contrary. If a God wanted to be known certainly he/she/it would be, yet there are no signs of that. Why can't these Gods split moons, part rivers, make donkeys and snakes speak human languages, and make it rain frogs like they purportedly used to.

I am more open to the idea of a generalized God-force, tao, chi, or other unknown and yet undetectable power in the universe. But that is so vague as to hardly be discussable.

[truemuslim]

okey since no muslim seem to be here debating...ME IS HERE!!!!

FIRST: to athiests..and agnostics: You don't need to see something to believe it...you cant see air and you believe it you cant see the core of the earth or the sun yet you believe it...why cant you believe something has created all of the things we see and use today? Where do you think u came frum? ur mum..then what about her? where she came frum? her mum and soooo and soo on...BUT what about the first person on earth? who is that?? where did they come from? how did this all begin? these are all the question alot of people never anser or ask! WHY??
answer please?

and please NO goofy answers!!!!


and now to the christians:::: jesus died on the cross like u say...so why couldnt he save himself from the pain and suffering? yes u say he came back then but why would he do that? and why would god be one of his own creations??

AGAIN NO GOOFY ANSWERS PLEASE!!




continue debating..

[root]

okey since no muslim seem to be here debating...ME IS HERE!!!!

FIRST: to athiests..and agnostics: You don't need to see something to believe it...you cant see air

Is this a joke.

and you believe it you cant see the core of the earth

Correct, the core might well be cotton wool. However, the presence of magnetic fields & sonar don't actually support that idea. Funny though it supports perfectly the current accepted theory of what our core is made of and how big it is.

or the sun yet you believe it

I seen the sun today, I also seen the hundreds of other suns near us tonight!!!

...why cant you believe something has created all of the things we see and use today? Where do you think u came frum? ur mum..then what about her? where she came frum? her mum and soooo and soo on...BUT what about the first person on earth? who is that?? where did they come from? how did this all begin? these are all the question alot of people never anser or ask! WHY??
answer please?

The evidence simply does not agree with creation views.

[truemuslim]

k...Just answer this...

Where do you think u came frum? ur mum..then what about her? where she came frum? her mum and soooo and soo on...BUT what about the first person on earth? who is that?? where did they come from? how did this all begin? these are all the question alot of people never anser or ask! WHY??

[Heera Singh]

To Pygoscelis: I have a very good piece of writing that I think you would find quite interesting. I'm not able to create a new thread since I don't have 50+ posts and I can't PM... So once mods approve the thread I've created I"ll put it up for you;

In fact, I think everybody should have a read of it. Its called "Universal Religion", and it would benefit ALL.

[Whatsthepoint]

Muslims, especially you true :sunny:
Why do you think a perfect, self sufficient God created the creation?
Why do you think he wants to be worshipped?

[Skavau]

so... you believe in only things which you have 'vision' or 'scientific' proof? so, to say, invisible things you don't believe (correct me if i'm wrong)..

No.

There is no 'proof' in science. It makes no attempt to prove anything. It has no set path. It only seeks to understand the world around us through the use of evidence.

To see God is a very far off thing, even some of HIS creations are not visible. For example, there is chilly before you, but u can't see its bitterness. Surgar or some other sweet thing is near you, you cannot see its sweetness. There are many things which when seen outwardly look different but it has its hidden nature and merits..

Your example is flawed in two areas. We detect things not just through seeing things. Moreover, even if bitterness and sweetness were fundamentally undetectable - it does not validate the position of God's existence.

Just as you will have to do some sort of labour to see ghee in milk or fire in the wood, you will have to do your own labour to see the Lord.

See, you already presume God in your own world view. This is utterly meaningless to me. 'Lord' (or more broadly God) is just what is alleged to exist according to Theists. It is not my claim, it is the claim of theists. Under my world view it is nothing more than a concept, and an incoherent one.

These eyes only see so much, because they're 'foggy'. The stain on our souls and minds keep our vision secluded only to the materialistic. To see the Lord, we have to do labour to wash those sins off our soul and mind. How do we wash those sins? Sing the Lord's Praises.... Meditate on the formless lord... Serve the lord .. live a riteous and truthful life... and so on and so on..

This is religious rhetoric. It is in blunt terms, completely and utterly meaningless to me.

You stated "incoherent definitions of God and meaningless definitions of God". You are somewhat correct in that statement. God cannot be defined. We can spend years and years and lifetimes and lifetimes trying to define the Greatness and the Glory of God... but we'll still never come to a finish. There is but One God, who created everything, and is everything; how can we define that? we cannot.. that does not mean that we shouldn't praise such a Glorious Creator.

You have yet to demonstrate this 'Glorious Creator'. You also misunderstood what I mean by incoherency and meaningless in the definitions of God.

[Skavau]

okey since no muslim seem to be here debating...ME IS HERE!!!!

Hello.

FIRST: to athiests..and agnostics: You don't need to see something to believe it...you cant see air and you believe it you cant see the core of the earth or the sun yet you believe it...

There are other means of percieving things rather than just 'vision'. You hugely underestimate humanity. We are able to measure the air through other means than trying to see it. In fact, we do it all the time through weather reports.

And yes we do see the sun. Did you perchance look out of your window at any point during the day once in your life?

why cant you believe something has created all of the things we see and use today?

Because I am unconvinced that something created all of the things that we see and use today. It is quite simple. Why can't you believe in Thor? Because you are unconvinced of Thor's existence.

Where do you think u came frum? ur mum..then what about her? where she came frum? her mum and soooo and soo on...BUT what about the first person on earth? who is that?? where did they come from?

The first person (as in human) came through evolution.

how did this all begin? these are all the question alot of people never anser or ask! WHY??
answer please?

You realise also that a lot of scientists are in fact asking about the origin of life on Earth and are trying to actively find out the origin of life here on Earth. Your presumption that no-one asks that is completely false.

Abiogenesis is a large topic.

and please NO goofy answers!!!!

Define 'goofy'.

[truemuslim]

Allah the Greatest created everything, it was all good everyone was going to go to heavan...but then iblis betrayed allah cuz jealousy of adam...and allah want to see which of his creations are going to be the ones who will not be tempted by the shaitan..allah loves all his creations even those who dont love him...but the devil will TRY to show all of allahs creations the WRONG way teach us bad things tempt us to do it...that probably doesnt answer ur questions...but i got more

A painter, if we are to draw a similitude on a lower level, who tells you that he is a painter, if you ask him where are his paintings and he replies I don’t have any. What kind of painter is this? The concept of a painter who doesn’t paint, there is some thing not quite gelling together here, of course Allah is beyond this. But if we are to understand on the simplest level, the two go together. The perfection of a painter lies in his paintings. His quality and his ability to paint, is manifest in his paintings. And Allah, beyond all that, as creator, this quality of creation is manifest in the creation itself. Allah didn’t create out of a need. No, the fact that he is the creator, is manifest in the creation.
Allah has honored humans by creating them to be His vicegerents on earth. He gave us free will, which makes us higher than the angels.

But our minds as human beings are limited to the boundaries of human perception. We should bear this in mind and never try to bother ourselves with things that fall outside of our scope of understanding. Allah did not need to create us, and therefore, we may never understand why He did.

Yes, Allah is perfect. Yes, He has no need of us; rather, we need Him. When He created us, He did not create us for His own benefit, but for ours. He created us for our advantage, not His.

Allah does not need to be worshiped; rather, we need to worship Him. Our need of God stems from our innate need of someone to help us and give us safety.



Our purpose of existence on earth is more meaningful than being slaves to worldly gains. There can be no meaningful life better than that prescribed by our Creator, Allah. Every act done according to Allah's way is an act of worship. Man is the beneficiary and Allah is in no need. The Qur’an says what means:

*{O mankind! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is Rich [Free of all wants and needs], Worthy of all praise.}* (Fatir 35:15)

We need Allah to feel our own being and to taste the happiness of life. Our need for Him is like the need of a baby for a supporting father and a merciful mother. We need to admit our powerlessness before Him and to trust Him to give us might and power, since He is the source of all might and power. A prophetic tradition reads:

“O Allah, I seek refuge in You for Your pleasure and against Your wrath and in Your forgiveness and against Your punishment and in You from You. I cannot praise You as You can praise Yourself.” (Reported by Muslim, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.)


:w:

[truemuslim]

And yes we do see the sun. Did you perchance look out of your window at any point during the day once in your life?

I SAID THE EARTH CORE OR THE SUN (AS IN THE SUNS CORE)

The first person (as in human) came through evolution.

why couldnt we all come frum evolution?

Because I am unconvinced that something created all of the things that we see and use today. It is quite simple. Why can't you believe in Thor? Because you are unconvinced of Thor's existence.

okey i dunt even wanna know who thor is..kk

Define 'goofy'.

ridiculous; silly; wacky; nutty: a goofy little hat.

hehe im kiddin... i mean like those other posts i usually get...(not urs)

[Whatsthepoint]

A painter, if we are to draw a similitude on a lower level, who tells you that he is a painter, if you ask him where are his paintings and he replies I don’t have any. What kind of painter is this? The concept of a painter who doesn’t paint, there is some thing not quite gelling together here, of course Allah is beyond this. But if we are to understand on the simplest level, the two go together. The perfection of a painter lies in his paintings. His quality and his ability to paint, is manifest in his paintings. And Allah, beyond all that, as creator, this quality of creation is manifest in the creation itself. Allah didn’t create out of a need. No, the fact that he is the creator, is manifest in the creation.

So God does things because he can?
Why do his abilities need to be manifest?

[truemuslim]

Allah Almighty is infinite.....and since we, as humans are limited in understanding, we can only just begin to grasp His All-encompassing, All-pervading, All-powerful nature.

[Heera Singh]

Your example is flawed in two areas. We detect things not just through seeing things. Moreover, even if bitterness and sweetness were fundamentally undetectable - it does not validate the position of God's existence.

That example itself was to be used as analogy that, just because you don't see or feel something, it does not mean that its not there.

See, you already presume God in your own world view. This is utterly meaningless to me. 'Lord' (or more broadly God) is just what is alleged to exist according to Theists. It is not my claim, it is the claim of theists. Under my world view it is nothing more than a concept, and an incoherent one.

This is religious rhetoric. It is in blunt terms, completely and utterly meaningless to me.

Thats fine, to each his/her own.

You have yet to demonstrate this 'Glorious Creator'. You also misunderstood what I mean by incoherency and meaningless in the definitions of God.

I don't need to demonstrate anything. Look in the mirror, you are also a creation, of the Creator. I'm not really trying to 'convince' you that there is a God, as you seem to be very set in your belief, so it would be useless. I'm simply stating how one can believe that there IS a God. Perhaps my example was not very good. Ah well, sorry for wasting your time then.

Blesss!

[Whatsthepoint]

Allah Almighty is infinite.....and since we, as humans are limited in understanding, we can only just begin to grasp His All-encompassing, All-pervading, All-powerful nature.

Lol...
Why do you believe the trinity is false just because we, mere humans, cannot fully grasp it?

[truemuslim]

Lol...
Why do you believe the trinity is false just because we, mere humans, cannot fully grasp it?

there are things in life (beyond life actually) that no one can see its too much for the human or anything to be able to experience..so yeah...

(ah ur talking as a ghost aint u)

[Skavau]

That example itself was to be used as analogy that, just because you don't see or feel something, it does not mean that its not there.

Okay. Agreed.

So?

I don't need to demonstrate anything. Look in the mirror, you are also a creation, of the Creator.

This is supposed to be a debate topic in a Comparative Religion subforum. When you make claims, do not be surprised or expect not to be asked to demonstrate your claims.

Moreover, please kindly demonstrate how I am a 'creation' and demonstrate the existence of this creator please.

[Skavau]

I SAID THE EARTH CORE OR THE SUN (AS IN THE SUNS CORE)

You didn't specify the sun 'core', you just said 'sun'. Why are you typing in capital letters?

why couldnt we all come frum evolution?

We did. We are all the result of the effects of evolution.

okey i dunt even wanna know who thor is..kk

You obviously do not understand the example or the point I was trying to make. I am unconvinced of the existence of Allah as you are unconvinced of the existence of Thor.

When you understand why you do not believe in Thor, you will understand why I do not believe in Allah.

[Heera Singh]

Skavau, u said

Moreover, please kindly demonstrate how I am a 'creation' and demonstrate the existence of this creator please.

but then in the next post you said

We did. We are all the result of the effects of evolution.

I think those are contradicting statements.

[Skavau]

Skavau, u said



but then in the next post you said



I think those are contradicting statements.

Where is the contradiction?

[Heera Singh]

evolution is creation

[truemuslim]

You didn't specify the sun 'core', you just said 'sun'. Why are you typing in capital letters?

you cant see the core of the earth or the sun yet you believe it...

I SAIIIDD (getting really ticked off now..) ^^^
its a simple mistake i added 'the' because i am typing and not caring bout grammar...kk..oh and i kept caps on so u can read it right

We did. We are all the result of the effects of evolution.

right....now that is a RESULT ..BUT why cant we all be from DIRECT evolution not just a result???? we got parents now dont we? meaning they arent from evolution..they got parents and so on... now why do we got parents when we from and evolution??? (DO NOT SAY TO PAY FOR US!)

When you understand why you do not believe in Thor, you will understand why I do not believe in Allah.

okey i cant understand because i dunt KNOW who the hek thor is ... and there are many things like miracles and all supporting the proof of allah existing..

how else do u think we all "appeared" here??





p.s. I THINK I SHUD CHANGE THE TITLE NOW.... I WILL

[ummsara1108]

THE TRINITY. God is revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being.

There is much talk about the Trinity, but yet it only refers to the Trinity in the bible, it doesn't acually state the word Trinity, why is that if it's so important?


Hi truemuslim i'm back.....lol....debater here

[truemuslim]

^ Yay Im So Happy Now Im Not Alone!!!woohoo Thanks Sis!!!!

[Skavau]

evolution is creation

No it isn't.

I SAIIIDD (getting really ticked off now..) ^^^
its a simple mistake i added 'the' because i am typing and not caring bout grammar...kk..oh and i kept caps on so u can read it right

I can read without full caps needed.

right....now that is a RESULT ..BUT why cant we all be from DIRECT evolution not just a result????

Eh?

we got parents now dont we? meaning they arent from evolution..they got parents and so on... now why do we got parents when we from and evolution???

Do you actually understand how evolution works? At all? The above demonstrates in all honesty, you have not the slightest clue. Evolution is the change of inherited traits of a population to a next. Inherited are expressions of genes which are passed on to the offspring through reproduction. In our case, our parents pass on their genes to us.

(DO NOT SAY TO PAY FOR US!)

I wouldn't. I have no idea what such an answer would mean.

okey i cant understand because i dunt KNOW who the hek thor is ... and there are many things like miracles and all supporting the proof of allah existing..

What 'miracles', precisely? How are they any different than miracles claimed by Christianity?

how else do u think we all "appeared" here??

I don't think we just 'appeared' here. That is your projection, not my contention.

[ummsara1108]

You didn't specify the sun 'core', you just said 'sun'. Why are you typing in capital letters?


We did. We are all the result of the effects of evolution.


You obviously do not understand the example or the point I was trying to make. I am unconvinced of the existence of Allah as you are unconvinced of the existence of Thor.

When you understand why you do not believe in Thor, you will understand why I do not believe in Allah.

In the number of years the earth has exsisted, I/99% of the people never heard of Thor, who is it and what does it do?

[Skavau]

In the number of years the earth has exsisted, I/99% of the people never heard of Thor, who is it and what does it do?

So you've never even heard of Norse Paganism? Or general Viking Mythology?

[truemuslim]

I can read without full caps needed.

yeh but then u make the tiniest grammar crap such a big deal

Eh?

*sigh*

Do you actually understand how evolution works? At all? The above demonstrates in all honesty, you have not the slightest clue. Evolution is the change of inherited traits of a population to a next. Inherited are expressions of genes which are passed on to the offspring through reproduction. In our case, our parents pass on their genes to us.

i do and u just dont understand...uh..nothing?

I wouldn't. I have no idea what such an answer would mean.

good

What 'miracles', precisely? How are they any different than miracles claimed by Christianity?

what r the miracles in christianity and i will answer ur question

don't think we just 'appeared' here. That is your projection, not my contention.

nope... ok heres what i got frum u... we came from evolution... BUT where did the trees and earth and planets and air and rain and clouds and food all come from???



*sigh* ...im gonna leave for a sec...(zuhr prayer)

[Whatsthepoint]

In the number of years the earth has exsisted, I/99% of the people never heard of Thor, who is it and what does it do?

Well, it's mostly atheists who know Thor and use him in their examples, so no wonder.
Ah, have you ever heard of Stargate series? Plenty of Thors there...

[Skavau]

yeh but then u make the tiniest grammar crap such a big deal

It makes no odds if it was Caps or not, I'd still make a 'big deal' out of it.

i do and u just dont understand...uh..nothing?

No. Judging by your assumptions of evolution, you understand nothing about the theory. You don't even seem to get how it happens since you think that evolution is said to take place independently of reproduction.

what r the miracles in christianity and i will answer ur question

Ask the Christians. They claim people have been healed by God, prayers answered and claim images of Jesus on various things. This is no different than Muslims claiming to see Arabic in clouds, and trees 'bowing' towards Mecca.

All of it is rather unconvincing, cringe worthy and ultimately poor expression of God's behalf (if it is indeed work of God).

BUT where did the trees and earth and planets and air and rain and clouds and food all come from???

Evolution takes place in plants as well.

The rest of your question makes no sense. Rain is a type of precipitation. It did not 'come' from anywhere. The air is just the atmosphere on earth.

[Whatsthepoint]

what r the miracles in christianity and i will answer ur question

Miracles in Christianity consist mainly of appereances of saints, visions and most importantly, supposedly inexplicable healings.
Catholically speaking...

[ummsara1108]

Skavau, u said



but then in the next post you said



I think those are contradicting statements.

You are alive right, breathing, walking, running, thinking, debating?

The proof there is a higher authority is with you every moment of the day, when you sleep and in your concious, ect.

When you think of doing something wrong, who do you think makes you second guess what you want or are about to do? It's god!!!!

[Skavau]

You are alive right, breathing, walking, running, thinking, debating?

Yes.

The proof there is a higher authority is with you every moment of the day, when you sleep and in your concious, ect.

How is me sleeping and generally being alive 'proof' of a higher authority?

When you think of doing something wrong, who do you think makes you second guess what you want or are about to do? It's god!!!!

Do you have any evidence that God makes me second guess immoral acts?

[ummsara1108]

So you've never even heard of Norse Paganism? Or general Viking Mythology?

Pagans, yes, norse paganism, no, viking mythology, again no


I'm surely gonna have to look it up...

[Whatsthepoint]

When you think of doing something wrong, who do you think makes you second guess what you want or are about to do? It's god!!!!

IMHO, the morals brought up to you mainly in your childhood.

Why do non-muslims never second guess before consuming pork, drinking alcohol, listening to music, indulging into premarital sex. Afterall, it's wrong according to God (or people who claim to know him)..

[ummsara1108]

Yes.

Great!


How is me sleeping and generally being alive 'proof' of a higher authority?

who created you, or did you just appear? and don't say my mother and father, because my answer to that would be....who gave them the ability to creat you?


Do you have any evidence that God makes me second guess immoral acts?

Morals, where do you think you get it from, birth? it's your selfconcious.

[Skavau]

Morals, where do you think you get it from, birth? it's your selfconcious.

Somewhat, although conditioning through childhood can change one's own perception of what acts deserve altruism and what acts cause guilt, therefore indicating that there is no set moral criteria built in us from birth.

[ummsara1108]

IMHO, the morals brought up to you mainly in your childhood.

Why do non-muslims never second guess before consuming pork, drinking alcohol, listening to music, indulging into premarital sex. Afterall, it's wrong according to God (or people who claim to know him)..

your right morals are taught as a child, but it's your beleifs that keep you moral.

Most christians follow the new testament, but it clearly states in the old testament not to do any of those things. Find a christian that follows the OT, they most certainly do not do any of the things stated, except those who are lead astray, as a matter of fact OT christians are more like muslims than you think. And even more so like jews.

Another thing is NT christians think if you ask for forgiveness, your forgiven as long as you beleive that jesus is the son of god.

I mean how many times can a person commit the same sin, before he isn't forgiven anymore?

[ummsara1108]

Somewhat, although conditioning through childhood can change one's own perception of what acts deserve altruism and what acts cause guilt, therefore indicating that there is no set moral criteria built in us from birth.

Exactly

[Whatsthepoint]

your right morals are taught as a child, but it's your beleifs that keep you moral.

Perhaps.
This does not prove God though.

Most christians follow the new testament, but it clearly states in the old testament not to do any of those things. Find a christian that follows the OT, they most certainly do not do any of the things stated, except those who are lead astray, as a matter of fact OT christians are more like muslims than you think. And even more so like jews.

Another thing is NT christians think if you ask for forgiveness, your forgiven as long as you beleive that jesus is the son of god.

I mean how many times can a person commit the same sin, before he isn't forgiven anymore?

Yeah, but what does this have to do with the existence of God?
PS: Ask a Christian. I am a former one but I never got into details..

[ummsara1108]

Lol...
Why do you believe the trinity is false just because we, mere humans, cannot fully grasp it?

God = 1

God/Son/Holy Spirit = 3

What's not to grasp, christians say god is 1 period, god is unique (nothing like it) period, but yet they worship more than god, how can a son and a father be the same thing, don't make sense and the people that don't grasp it, merely don't want to, because there comfortable where they stand.

[ummsara1108]

Perhaps.
This does not prove God though.

To be honest if anyone thinks they can PROVE god exists, they are wrong, the proof is in your heart, mind and soul. in my opinion...


Yeah, but what does this have to do with the existence of God?

you asked why they don't give a second thought before eating pork, drinking, have premarital sex, ect. that was my reply...


PS: Ask a Christian. I am a former one but I never got into details..

I am also a former christian, raised and bred, although my religion at the moment is religion, I absolutely believe there is A God, just haven't put myself into a catagory yet. Seek the knowledge and you will find it....

[Whatsthepoint]

you asked why they don't give a second thought before eating pork, drinking, have premarital sex, ect. that was my reply...

At first you said God makes us second guess, then you said beliefs do...
The pork example was a reply to the first part.

[Heera Singh]

To WhatsThePoint: yes, creation is involved in evolution... you were born... u were 'created' so to speak... u didn't just appear out of thin air one day... there was a whole process of 'creation'... the sperm had to go and 'seed' itself... and then the whole process of 'conception' began... a 9 month (give or take) process... so yes, u were created out of something...

[Heera Singh]

sorry, the last post was meant for skavau not 'whats the point'

[Skavau]

To WhatsThePoint: yes, creation is involved in evolution... you were born... u were 'created' so to speak... u didn't just appear out of thin air one day... there was a whole process of 'creation'... the sperm had to go and 'seed' itself... and then the whole process of 'conception' began... a 9 month (give or take) process... so yes, u were created out of something...

And even if you define that as 'creation', it is not the sort of creation that Theists seem to think happened. That is what lacks evidence and that is what I was asking to be demonstrated.

The contradiction is void.

[Heera Singh]

sorry, please explain "it is not the sort of creation that Theists seem to think happened"

[Skavau]

sorry, please explain "it is not the sort of creation that Theists seem to think happened"

When I said this:

Moreover, please kindly demonstrate how I am a 'creation' and demonstrate the existence of this creator please.

I meant creation as in creation of God. Theists allege that we are a creation of God. I asked for some demonstration of this.

I mean creator as in God. Theists allege God exists. I asked for some demonstration of this.

Asking for demonstration on the above have nothing to with evolution.

[Heera Singh]

but thats a matter of perception; to one person the fact that there is life and there is 'evolution' and there is 'creation' personifies that there IS a God; to someone else, like you, that does not hold tru.

Let me ask you something, WHAT would it take to prove to you there is God? I don't think anything that anybody could say or 'prove' would be sufficient for you.

[Skavau]

but thats a matter of perception; to one person the fact that there is life and there is 'evolution' and there is 'creation' personifies that there IS a God; to someone else, like you, that does not hold tru.

So why are you on a self-proclaimed debate thread?

Let me ask you something, WHAT would it take to prove to you there is God? I don't think anything that anybody could say or 'prove' would be sufficient for you.

Proof is wholly unattainable. It would be irrational to ask for proof.

[Heera Singh]

ummm.. wait... didn't u say eralier

For a general lack of evidence and reason to believe in a God, incoherent definitions of God and meaningless definitions of God.

"Lack of evidence" which means u want PROOF... so does tha mean u are irrational?

[Skavau]

ummm.. wait... didn't u say eralier



"Lack of evidence" which means u want PROOF... so does tha mean u are irrational?

Evidence is not proof.

[Heera Singh]

how do u figure?

websters dictionary defines "evidence" as:

something that furnishes or tends to furnish proof

so, yes, I guess by definition that makes you irrational.

[BlackMamba]

Can a Christian tell me straight up, do u regard Jesus as a son of god, a god, or prophet. I get so confused when someone tries to speak about the basics of Christianity. And the whole ghost thing just throws me off.

[truemuslim]

^ confuses me too bro..lol

No. Judging by your assumptions of evolution, you understand nothing about the theory. You don't even seem to get how it happens since you think that evolution is said to take place independently of reproduction.

...right...wanna look up that word? and the word brain? please?

Evolution takes place in plants as well.

The rest of your question makes no sense. Rain is a type of precipitation. It did not 'come' from anywhere. The air is just the atmosphere on earth.

wait wait wait i get this its a prank and ur going to say ..uh..febuary fools right? if not...do what i told u..LOOK UP BRAIN ...you might be able to find out where you can get free ones..dead ppl maybe..hehe





anyway...christians are your miracles all the miracles of the prophets?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Skavu - I mean creator as in God. Theists allege God exists. I asked for some demonstration of this.

Jā karṯā sirṯẖī ka­o sājė āpė jāṇai so­ī.

The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.

Guru Nanak Dev

[czgibson]

Greetings,

...right...wanna look up that word? and the word brain? please?



wait wait wait i get this its a prank and ur going to say ..uh..febuary fools right? if not...do what i told u..LOOK UP BRAIN ...you might be able to find out where you can get free ones..dead ppl maybe..hehe

Didn't you say, on a number of occasions, that you didn't want this thread to turn into a fight?

It looks like that was exactly what you were looking for.

Peace

[Skavau]

...right...wanna look up that word? and the word brain? please?

Look up what word precisely? I take by your insulting attitude that you have lost interest in even defending your assertions on evolution. May I remind you of your original post:

ok its 1:45 here so i gotta go to bed..school tomorrow..fajr prayer...LI...lots to do.. inshallah i wont wake up wit a huge fight on here..maybe i shud get an owl to take care of this thread while i sleep..or a person who is awake in there part of the world while my part is night.lol

plzplz plz plz plz noooo fightS!!

Sounds like you better take your own advice.

wait wait wait i get this its a prank and ur going to say ..uh..febuary fools right? if not...do what i told u..LOOK UP BRAIN ...you might be able to find out where you can get free ones..dead ppl maybe..hehe

I explained natural events for you and I get this. I don't even know what this has to do with anything I said.

Oh wait, nothing.

Grow up.

[ummsara1108]

Truemuslim,

Do you believe christians do not have miracals they believe in? Or just that they never happen? Just wondering

[ummsara1108]

Yes. Allah has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization.

Allah has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, Allah does in fact, exist.

Miracles of prophets and messengers of Allah have come to people through the ages. Moses, peace be upon him, showed many miracles to pharoah and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea were are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.

Again, Allah sent Jesus, the son of Mary, peace be upon him, with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus, peace be upon him, was a messenger of Allah as was Moses before him.

Muhammad, peace be upon him, was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad, peace be upon him, have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of Allah.
[Please visit "Science Proves Allah": Watch video of famous scientists admit Quran is from Allah and even accept Islam]

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of Allah and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

No one sees or hears Allah, not even the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand.

We know from the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences in front right in front of us.

We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

[Skavau]

Yes. Allah has sent down miracles, revelations and messengers to give clear proofs He exists and more important, what we should do once we come to this realization.

What messengers, miracles and revelations did Allah send down? Do you mean Muhammad and the Quran? Please demonstrate how both are evidence of the existence of some cosmic arbiter.

Allah has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages for people to be able to clearly see with their own eyes and to be able to use their own senses the miracles and proofs pointing to the fact, Allah does in fact, exist.

So then you will surely have no problem directing us to these clear 'proofs'?

Miracles of prophets and messengers of Allah have come to people through the ages. Moses, peace be upon him, showed many miracles to pharoah and to the children of Israel. Plagues, locusts, water turning to blood, his stick becoming a snake, the voice in the burning bush and the parting of the Red Sea were are clear miracles for the people of Moses time.

Do we have any evidence of these claims? Keep in mind that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Again, Allah sent Jesus, the son of Mary, peace be upon him, with clear miracles for the people of his time. Speaking from the cradle while still a new born infant, creating birds from clay, curing the sick, giving sight to the blind and even bringing a dead man back to life, were all clear signs to the people to know Jesus, peace be upon him, was a messenger of Allah as was Moses before him.

See above. Can we see this evidence that any of that happened?

Muhammad, peace be upon him, was the last and final messenger of Allah, and he was sent to all of mankind. Allah sent him with a number of miracles, not the least of which was the Quran. The predictions and prophecies of Muhammad, peace be upon him, have come true even in this century and the Quran has been used to convince even scientists of the existence of Allah.

So what prophecies have come true? And what scientists have been convinced by the Quran?

The Quran is the best of proofs for the existence of Allah and today over one and half billion people memorize and recite from the exact text, in the exact same language it was revealed in; Arabic. More than 10 million Muslims have completely memorized the entire Quran from cover to cover, and can recite it from memory without looking at it.

What does (in my opinion - utter meaningless) acts of memorisation have to do with whether something is or is not true?

No one sees or hears Allah, not even the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him.

Right.

However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize this entire universe could not possibly come into existence on its own. Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand.

Why did something have to design the universe? Show me your reasoning.

We know from the teachings of Muhammad, peace be upon him, the proofs for the existence of God (Allah) are most obvious to us in our everyday surroundings. Anyone with understanding would quickly acknowledge His existence provided they are not so stubborn as to ignore the obvious evidences in front right in front of us.

I find the above rather arrogant. It presumes that anyone who does not conclude Allah is devoid of understanding.

We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting, correct? So, if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them, in the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him (or touch, or hear, etc.).

Sorry. I fail to see the relevance of the analogy. We know the origins of a painting - it is a man-made invention. The universe however, we do not know the origins and cannot conclude anything on it much less presume it was created.

[ummsara1108]

If you take the time to read any of the religious books you will over and over again hear of the miracles that happened, it's not a muslim thing, it's a everyone that believe's thing, because all of the jews, christians and muslims believe there were miracles, it clearly states it in there books.

[Skavau]

If you take the time to read any of the religious books you will over and over again hear of the miracles that happened, it's not a muslim thing, it's a everyone that believe's thing, because all of the jews, christians and muslims believe there were miracles, it clearly states it in there books.

I know proclamation of miracles are not just a Muslim thing. It is a thing that a lot of claims to the truth seem to do. That is why it is so totally unconvincing.

Every religion appears content to claim a miracle. What reason do I have to discriminate and presume Islam's claims of supernatural intervention over other claims?

And where is this empirical evidence of these miracles? They've been stated in the books you say? Where is the evidence that these books are correct?

[ummsara1108]

I know it says your an Atheist, Skavau, but honestly if you didn't believe, you wouldn't be debating...or asking questions, you debunk everything that everyone has to say, that's your way of confirming what you believe to be true...or not true.

[Skavau]

I know it says your an Atheist, Skavau, but honestly if you didn't believe, you wouldn't be debating...or asking questions, you debunk everything that everyone has to say, that's your way of confirming what you believe to be true...or not true

Are you alleging that I am a closet theist?

Because you would be wrong. Do not presume what I think. Any chance of the questions I asked being answered?

[ummsara1108]

I know proclamation of miracles are not just a Muslim thing. It is a thing that a lot of claims to the truth seem to do. That is why it is so totally unconvincing.

Then why are there religions, that mostly focus on the same things? Come on there has to be a reason. The world is made up of religions mostly, not atheists

Every religion appears content to claim a miracle. What reason do I have to discriminate and presume Islam's claims of supernatural intervention over other claims?

You don't

And where is this empirical evidence of these miracles? They've been stated in the books you say? Where is the evidence that these books are correct?

Where is the evidence that they aren't?

Please, you a brother in humanity, read, seek knowledge, don't be so hesitant, keep an open mind, only then will you find the truth, whatever that may be...check out

www.islamalways.com and it's not only about islam

[ummsara1108]

Are you alleging that I am a closet theist?

Because you would be wrong. Do not presume what I think. Any chance of the questions I asked being answered?

I haven't presumed anything, only by your own statements I come to the conclusion, that the answers are before you and yet you ignore them, simply because you don't believe, only when you do believe will you unserstand.

With you it's an agree to disagree debate

[Skavau]

Where is the evidence that they aren't?

These are your claims. Not mine. You are alleging miracles have happened and the burden of evidence is upon you, as it always is with affirmative positions.

You don't get to make claims and then back out of discussion.

Please, you a brother in humanity, read, seek knowledge, don't be so hesitant, keep an open mind, only then will you find the truth, whatever that may be...check out

www.islamalways.com and it's not only about islam

A sincere search for the truth does not include looking at specifically Islamic or Islamic orientated websites. It does not include looking at Islamic websites and then concluding. A sincere search for the truth is being true to yourself. If an individual searches through religion, science and philosophy and then concludes that in fact - Islam is false then it is as much a statement of sincerity as a devout Muslims statement of sincerity that Islam is true.

Sincerity is honesty. It is the methods gained to reach a conclusion that define honesty, not what you conclude. I have no reason to presume Islam whatsoever. My search for 'truth' is entirely independent and favours no world view.

[ummsara1108]

Are you alleging that I am a closet theist?

Because you would be wrong. Do not presume what I think. Any chance of the questions I asked being answered?

Call yourself what you will...

[Skavau]

I haven't presumed anything, only by your own statements I come to the conclusion, that the answers are before you and yet you ignore them, simply because you don't believe, only when you do believe will you unserstand.

And yet, I don't believe. I've never seen such a self-defeating statement before as I have with 'You don't believe and when you believe you will understand'.

And what answers are before me?

With you it's an agree to disagree debate

I asked for evidence for your claims and you appear unable or unwilling to provide. Where is the agreeing to disagreeing?

[ummsara1108]

Ok then read a bible, a torah or a koran, how's that? I'm not making any spacifics, will you take my advice now? Of course not

[ummsara1108]

Do you believe there is a god?

[Skavau]

Ok then read a bible, a torah or a koran, how's that? I'm not making any spacifics, will you take my advice now? Of course not

I intend to read as much literature as possible in time. (Withstanding things I am not interested in).

Do you believe there is a god?

My profile says Atheist. You even acknowledged that, so no I don't.

[ummsara1108]

I have also given you some answers but again you refuse to take it into consideration. You just want to keep accusing me of avoiding the questions.

[ummsara1108]

I intend to read as much literature as possible in time. (Withstanding things I am not interested in).


My profile says Atheist. You even acknowledged that, so no I don't.

Why get so upset when I mentioned you didn't believe? If you don't believe?

I wasn't lying now was I?

[Skavau]

Why get so upset when I mentioned you didn't believe?

Eh? You alleged that I was in fact a Theist in denial. That was mentioning that I was believing.

I have also given you some answers but again you refuse to take it into consideration. You just want to keep accusing me of avoiding the questions.

You just redirect me to a website or telling me to read the Quran. It is complete avoidance of answering the questions. It is like me making a large statement, then when being asked to back up and support said statement - telling the person to 'go find the truth' or 'read this' or 'go to this website'.

It is not really a discussion or debate then at all.

[ummsara1108]

Eh? You alleged that I was in fact a Theist in denial. That was mentioning that I was believing.


You just redirect me to a website or telling me to read the Quran. It is complete avoidance of answering the questions. It is like me making a large statement, then when being asked to back up and support said statement - telling the person to 'go find the truth' or 'read this' or 'go to this website'.

It is not really a discussion or debate then at all.

why are you in an islamic forum? if what they say means nothing?

[Skavau]

why are you in an islamic forum? if what they say means nothing?

Discussion, Debate, Interest. I visit other forums for the same reason.

And you obviously did not read what I said. It is the refusal to back up claims which mean nothing to the discussion.

[Heera Singh]

so now, Skavau wants 'proof'? so, by ur own statement, that would make you irrational...

[Skavau]

so now, Skavau wants 'proof'? so, by ur own statement, that would make you irrational...

I never said 'proof'. If I did consider it changed for evidence.

And proof is not evidence. In science or philosophy nothing can be falsified, there is no certainty over any viewpoint - only evidence and reason give weight to a viewpoint.

[Heera Singh]

You might want to check out a dictionary and look up 'evidence'.

Stop backtracking on what you said; you've said in several posts you want 'evidence' and 'where's the proof'. Stop contradicting yourself.

Again I ask you, what will it take for you to believe there is a God? OBVIOUSLY you would need some sort of Proof, otherwise you wouldn't believe.

[truemuslim]

Truemuslim,

Do you believe christians do not have miracals they believe in? Or just that they never happen? Just wondering

i dunt kno... im asking them what there miracles are the ones wit the prophets or not? ..so i dunno. :D:w:

[Trumble]

You might want to check out a dictionary and look up 'evidence'.

You might want to follow your own advice, it's rather more complicated than the one-liner given earlier. 'Evidence' is not the same as proof. A better one-liner is "thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". A sufficient body of evidence is generally held to constitute 'proof' according to the common use of the word although whether such evidence actually does must be a matter of opinion. That is why this argument is ultimately futile... evidence that muslims consider 'proof' atheists will not consider proof. It is my very humble opinion that the evidence for God could only be considered anything resembling 'proof' if you happen to believe what is being 'proven' in the first place (i.e. you have FAITH) but no doubt theists will disagree.

[Heera Singh]

You might want to follow your own advice, it's rather more complicated than the one-liner given earlier. 'Evidence' is not the same as proof. A better one-liner is "thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". A sufficient body of evidence is generally held to constitute 'proof' according to the common use of the word although whether such evidence actually does must be a matter of opinion. That is why this argument is ultimately futile... evidence that muslims consider 'proof' atheists will not consider proof. It is my very humble opinion that the evidence for God could only be considered anything resembling 'proof' if you happen to believe what is being 'proven' in the first place (i.e. you have FAITH) but no doubt theists will disagree.

I understand what you're saying, i think... however the context of using the word 'evidence' when saying "show me evidence" technically implies 'show me proof'. That was the context which the other member had posted his/her response, and that is the context in which i'm replying.

[Skavau]

Stop backtracking on what you said; you've said in several posts you want 'evidence' and 'where's the proof'. Stop contradicting yourself.

Tell me - was proof typed as 'proof'?

Again I ask you, what will it take for you to believe there is a God? OBVIOUSLY you would need some sort of Proof, otherwise you wouldn't believe.

I don't know what it would take me to believe there is a God. It would take evidence indicating God, and not 'proof' since it is impossible to reach that level.

Direct empirical evidence of God's existence? A logical reason or deduction to presume that the existence of God is necessary?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Unfortunately, no-one has yet engaged Skavau on anything approaching the level that this debate demands. Any impartial observer would surely have to conclude that he is miles ahead of the opposition at this stage. Being an atheist like he is, and therefore not impartial, I can't really make that judgement, of course.

However, saying things like "the Qur'an proves it" and "miracles are evidence of God's existence" do not help the Muslim argument in any way. The first, to an atheist, is about as sensible as saying "It's all in The Lord of the Rings - that's how it happened. It's all written there, and all you have to do is read!"

The second statement is unhelpful for several reasons. The age of miracles, if it ever truly existed, seems now to be over, unless we accept the ludicrous stories of Jesus' face appearing in a loaf of bread etc. One reason why it is over is because people are not as easily fooled as they used to be. So, in essence, our best available evidence for miracles having happened are religious texts written by people whose understanding of the world was immensely primitive compared to ours in most areas (I'm leaving aside the argument about who actually wrote the Qur'an here).

So, if these non-arguments are the best that people can come up with, the atheists here will be kicking into an open goal. Pointless, really. Neither side is really learning anything at this stage.

[Does anyone know what happened to Ansar Al-'Adl? Now there was a man who could debate in a thought-provoking way. I really miss him.]

Peace

[ummsara1108]

i dunt kno... im asking them what there miracles are the ones wit the prophets or not? ..so i dunno. :D:w:

Oh ok, yes I believe all of them are from only prophets, same as muslims for the most part, infant talking, bringing a bird to life, healing, ect. hope it ansers your question...

[truemuslim]

Oh ok, yes I believe all of them are from only prophets, same as muslims for the most part, infant talking, bringing a bird to life, healing, ect. hope it ansers your question...

oh ok...so all the miracles in christianity are the same as in islam (almost...) but mixed up...:D:w:

[Heera Singh]

[QUOTE=Skavau;907396]What messengers, miracles and revelations did Allah send down? Do you mean Muhammad and the Quran? Please demonstrate how both are evidence of the existence of some cosmic arbiter.


So then you will surely have no problem directing us to these clear 'proofs'?


Do we have any evidence of these claims? Keep in mind that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


See above. Can we see this evidence that any of that happened?
[QUOTE]

there...

[ummsara1108]

oh ok...so all the miracles in christianity are the same as in islam (almost...) but mixed up...:D:w:

yes for the most part, i'd say 90% if not more

[truemuslim]

^ lol yah

[Heera Singh]

miracles happen in all corners of the world at all times, we just don't realize it sometimes... they happen to people with and without faith... i kno of a situation where an atheist who was really against the notion of God one day started to believe by a God-Conscious soul merely touching his hand and greeting him... one can see that as a miracle of the lord..

there have been saints/prophets/god conscious souls from all faiths.. and even those of no 'specific' faith..

The glory of the lord cannot be determined by anybody..

[Skavau]

Why thank you Heera Singh. You will notice I said: 'proofs' rather than proofs.

It was a reference to what ummsara said. It was her claim, so I use her language. If someone says 'I can prove X' then I ask 'How can you 'prove' X.

[ummsara1108]

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary
Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: proof
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of Middle English preove, from Old French preuve, from Late Latin proba, from Latin probare to prove
1 : the effect of evidence sufficient to persuade a reasonable person that a particular fact exists —see also EVIDENCE
2 : the establishment or persuasion by evidence that a particular fact exists —see also BURDEN OF PROOF
3 : something (as evidence) that proves or tends to prove the existence of a particular fact —see also CLEAR AND CONVINCING, PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE, REASONABLE DOUBT, STANDARD OF PROOF —compare ALLEGATION, ARGUMENT
4 : PROBATE 1a

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

[ummsara1108]

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law - Cite This Source - Share This
Main Entry: ev·i·dence
Pronunciation: 'e-v&-d&ns, -"dens
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin evidentia, from Latin, that which is obvious, from evident- evidens clear, obvious, from e- out of, from + videns, present participle of videre to see
: something that furnishes or tends to furnish proof; especially : something (as testimony, writings, or objects) presented at a judicial or administrative proceeding for the purpose of establishing the truth or falsity of an alleged matter of fact —see also ADMISSIBLE, BEST EVIDENCE RULE, EXCLUSIONARY RULE, EXHIBIT, FOUNDATION, OBJECTION,, PREPONDERANCE OF THE EVIDENCE, RELEVANT, SCINTILLA, STATE'S EVIDENCE, SUPPRESS, TESTIMONY, WITNESS Federal Rules of Evidence in the IMPORTANT LAWS section —compare ALLEGATION, ARGUMENT, PROOF

[Isambard]

miracles happen in all corners of the world at all times, we just don't realize it sometimes... they happen to people with and without faith... i kno of a situation where an atheist who was really against the notion of God one day started to believe by a God-Conscious soul merely touching his hand and greeting him... one can see that as a miracle of the lord..

there have been saints/prophets/god conscious souls from all faiths.. and even those of no 'specific' faith..

The glory of the lord cannot be determined by anybody..

Why dont said miracles ever happen to amputees? Does God ahte them or something?

[Heera Singh]

Why dont said miracles ever happen to amputees? Does God ahte them or something?

who said they don't???

"as you sow, so shall you reap" -- what goes around comes around. We believe in Karma and re-incarnation. Something that you did in this lifetime or your past lives, you will reap the 'fruit' of that action, whether it be good or bad.

I know of a situation where there was a man was polio-stricken, but thru his praise and contemplation of the Lord, he became able to walk (not 100%), and his disease was far less effecting him then before he started to focus his mind and energy on the Lord. He was told by a very God conscious soul told him the reason he was unable to walk from birth is because in his last life he had beaten a dog with a stick and broke the dogs spine, where the dog was unable to walk after that. The dog was a shelterless hungry dog that had taken the mans food, which caused the man to get angry and injure the dog. His lack of compassion and misdeeds resulted him paying the consequences in this lifetime. He is living in high spirits and has devoted his life to serving God.

In fact, I personally know of a person who was handicapped (couldn't walk) and is now walking perfectly fine - all after he became a devout follower of the Lord.

So miracles do happen, all the time... God doesn't hate anybody... God is Love... but, we all pay for our actions in either this lifetime or one of our future lifteimes...

Bless!!

[Isambard]

who said they don't???

"as you sow, so shall you reap" -- what goes around comes around. We believe in Karma and re-incarnation. Something that you did in this lifetime or your past lives, you will reap the 'fruit' of that action, whether it be good or bad.

I know of a situation where there was a man was polio-stricken, but thru his praise and contemplation of the Lord, he became able to walk (not 100%), and his disease was far less effecting him then before he started to focus his mind and energy on the Lord. He was told by a very God conscious soul told him the reason he was unable to walk from birth is because in his last life he had beaten a dog with a stick and broke the dogs spine, where the dog was unable to walk after that. The dog was a shelterless hungry dog that had taken the mans food, which caused the man to get angry and injure the dog. His lack of compassion and misdeeds resulted him paying the consequences in this lifetime. He is living in high spirits and has devoted his life to serving God.

In fact, I personally know of a person who was handicapped (couldn't walk) and is now walking perfectly fine - all after he became a devout follower of the Lord.

So miracles do happen, all the time... God doesn't hate anybody... God is Love... but, we all pay for our actions in either this lifetime or one of our future lifteimes...

Bless!!

You completely side-stepped my comment.

I pointed out that miracles never happen to amputees. Show me documented cases were someone grows back a limb after praying to God.

[Heera Singh]

and you've misunderstood my point... u think the only miracles that could've happened to an amputee would be to grow back a limb?? 'miracle' is very open phrase which can mean many diff things...

i personally don't know of anybody growing back a limb... but, because sum1 doesn't grow back a limb, ur gonna come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as miracles? (not you, just saying in general) if that is the case, then thats not a very good argument...

who knows, a 'miracle' could be that they have been given an artificial limb and are now able to walk or play or do other things they normally wouldn't have been able to do... again, i say, the 'definition' of miracle is very broad...

[Skavau]

and you've misunderstood my point... u think the only miracles that could've happened to an amputee would be to grow back a limb?? 'miracle' is very open phrase which can mean many diff things...

i personally don't know of anybody growing back a limb... but, because sum1 doesn't grow back a limb, ur gonna come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as miracles? (not you, just saying in general) if that is the case, then thats not a very good argument...

who knows, a 'miracle' could be that they have been given an artificial limb and are now able to walk or play or do other things they normally wouldn't have been able to do... again, i say, the 'definition' of miracle is very broad...

You have a very low standards for miracles. Generally, they are considered positive breaches of natural law by supernatural intervention.

[Pygoscelis]

So although in biblical times miracles could mean fantastic things like splitting moons or parting rivers or raining frogs, today they consist only of events that aren't really that fantastic or different than simple good luck? God frontloaded the Miracle tray?

[Heera Singh]

You have a very low standards for miracles. Generally, they are considered positive breaches of natural law by supernatural intervention.

So, a person with polio who is now able to walk literally after he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'? a deaf person who is now able to hear since he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?? what about if i told you about a guy who's cancer 'mysteriously' left his body once he devoted his life to God, woud that still be of low standard?? but no, u want something HUGE like a person 'parting rivers' (as said above)... and even THEN, u'll find somethin wrong about it or disbelieve it...

see this is the problem with you, and people like you... you're so set on ur opinion, that you're not here to learn or anything... no matter what, u won't change ur opinion... God cud communicate directly with you (in whatever way) and you STILL wouldn't believe... so i'm wasting my time speakin with you... because u won't change ur mind (not that i'm here to change ur mind), but ur so closed minded that u refuse to listen to anything outside of ur own thought process...

you don't believe in God, thats fine, i cud care less.. doesn't affect me one way or another... but if ur gonna go into a discussion, go in with an open mind and with the intention to learn (which it doesn't seem like you are doing here)... u said u want 'evidence', and then u say 'asking for proof is irrational'... asking for evidence IS asking for proof... u can check as many dictionaries as u want... ask as many english majors as u want... and still, u refuse to acknowledge that MAYBE u were wrong in that statement...

[Skavau]

So, a person with polio who is now able to walk literally after he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?

It is a better standard. But then I never used that as an example for a low standard.

Stop making strawmen.

a deaf person who is now able to hear since he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?? what about if i told you about a guy who's cancer 'mysteriously' left his body once he devoted his life to God, woud that still be of low standard?? but no, u want something HUGE like a person 'parting rivers' (as said above)... and even THEN, u'll find somethin wrong about it or disbelieve it...

If all of the above can be shown to have happened, then it would be a higher standard than what I said.

Stop making strawmen.

see this is the problem with you, and people like you... you're so set on ur opinion, that you're not here to learn or anything... no matter what, u won't change ur opinion... God cud communicate directly with you (in whatever way) and you STILL wouldn't believe... so i'm wasting my time speakin with you... because u won't change ur mind (not that i'm here to change ur mind), but ur so closed minded that u refuse to listen to anything outside of ur own thought process

Who are 'people like me'?

And you do realise the purpose of this thread, right? A debate between Christians, Muslims and Atheists. Why exactly are you getting so heated up over disagreements. That is the point of this thread

[Heera Singh]

I'm not getting heated... 'people like you' meaning people that are so set on their opnion in one way or another (whether be atheist strongly believing NO God, or a Christian believing only they are saved etc..) that they refuse to acknowledge thigns the other side might say, and find any way to 'debunk' the other sides comments..

a debate is a discussion between 2 or more parties which is explaining their own reasons for their belief, which DOES involve rebuttle, but when it comes to a point where the other side isn't willing to listen or doesn't want to learn anything with an open mind, then whats the point?

[Isambard]

So, a person with polio who is now able to walk literally after he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'? a deaf person who is now able to hear since he started to devote his life to God is of 'low standard'?? what about if i told you about a guy who's cancer 'mysteriously' left his body once he devoted his life to God, woud that still be of low standard?? but no, u want something HUGE like a person 'parting rivers' (as said above)... and even THEN, u'll find somethin wrong about it or disbelieve it...

see this is the problem with you, and people like you... you're so set on ur opinion, that you're not here to learn or anything... no matter what, u won't change ur opinion... God cud communicate directly with you (in whatever way) and you STILL wouldn't believe... so i'm wasting my time speakin with you... because u won't change ur mind (not that i'm here to change ur mind), but ur so closed minded that u refuse to listen to anything outside of ur own thought process...

you don't believe in God, thats fine, i cud care less.. doesn't affect me one way or another... but if ur gonna go into a discussion, go in with an open mind and with the intention to learn (which it doesn't seem like you are doing here)... u said u want 'evidence', and then u say 'asking for proof is irrational'... asking for evidence IS asking for proof... u can check as many dictionaries as u want... ask as many english majors as u want... and still, u refuse to acknowledge that MAYBE u were wrong in that statement...

This is just hilarious. You just keep shifting the goal-post and engaging in strawmen and get mad at us for wasting your time.:exhausted

[Heera Singh]

who said i'm gettin madd??? and wha's 'strawmen'???

[Skavau]

I'm not getting heated... 'people like you' meaning people that are so set on their opnion in one way or another (whether be atheist strongly believing NO God, or a Christian believing only they are saved etc..)

What makes you think I am so set in my opinion? All I have done is ask for evidence for claims made here. What precisely is wrong with that?

that they refuse to acknowledge thigns the other side might say, and find any way to 'debunk' the other sides comments..

So where I have I done that?

a debate is a discussion between 2 or more parties which is explaining their own reasons for their belief, which DOES involve rebuttle, but when it comes to a point where the other side isn't willing to listen or doesn't want to learn anything with an open mind, then whats the point?

So where have I been refusing to listen?

[Isambard]

I'm not getting heated... 'people like you' meaning people that are so set on their opnion in one way or another (whether be atheist strongly believing NO God, or a Christian believing only they are saved etc..) that they refuse to acknowledge thigns the other side might say, and find any way to 'debunk' the other sides comments..

a debate is a discussion between 2 or more parties which is explaining their own reasons for their belief, which DOES involve rebuttle, but when it comes to a point where the other side isn't willing to listen or doesn't want to learn anything with an open mind, then whats the point?

We'll listen when you start citing evidence of your grand claims and stop engaging in non-arguements or fallacies.

You still havent cited evidence in your discussion with Skav, and you merely redifined what a miracle is when I called you on the amputee thing. Then you shifted your position again when you were called on it.

[Skavau]

who said i'm gettin madd??? and wha's 'strawmen'???

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position. A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

u said u want 'evidence', and then u say 'asking for proof is irrational'... asking for evidence IS asking for proof... u can check as many dictionaries as u want... ask as many english majors as u want... and still, u refuse to acknowledge that MAYBE u were wrong in that statement...

I'm an English teacher with a Master's Degree. You're wrong in this case, I'm afraid. There is a clear difference between evidence and proof.

Peace

[Mikayeel]

I have got a question to everyone who lacks the believe of a god!

You know when someone passes away, physically he is still there, what has left him?

[Skavau]

I have got a question to everyone who lacks the believe of a god!

You know when someone passes away, physically he is still there, what has left him?

Nothing has left him. His body has just completely shut down. The processes that kept him alive have stopped and he ceases to be.

[wilberhum]

I have got a question to everyone who lacks the believe of a god!

You know when someone passes away, physically he is still there, what has left him?

What happens to a piss ant when it passes away? :skeleton:

[Heera Singh]

We'll listen when you start citing evidence of your grand claims and stop engaging in non-arguements or fallacies.

You still havent cited evidence in your discussion with Skav, and you merely redifined what a miracle is when I called you on the amputee thing. Then you shifted your position again when you were called on it.

where have i redefined miracle??? nowhere have i done that... if u read above i clearly stated mircale has a 'broad' definition, and can mean diff things to diff people...

what evidence do u exactly want me to cite?? the miracles or the existence of God?

Greetings,


I'm an English teacher with a Master's Degree. You're wrong in this case, I'm afraid. There is a clear difference between evidence and proof.

Peace

well I've spoken to several English majors and what they say is not what u say... okay, perhaps 2 diff opinions... whats your definition of evidence? how can it be used in a context that is not in relation to 'proof'? whats the clear difference between the 2?

[Mikayeel]

Nothing has left him. His body has just completely shut down. The processes that kept him alive have stopped and he ceases to be.

Gosh i find that amazing!

We are basicly nothing? Since nothing is in us, in order to leave us?

Since we are just living cells, what makes one person evil, and one person good?

I have never heard of good cells, and bad cells!

The list continues....

[Skavau]

where have i redefined miracle??? nowhere have i done that... if u read above i clearly stated mircale has a 'broad' definition, and can mean diff things to diff people...

And your example of a miracle is someone getting an artificial limb. That is an incredibly low standard for a miracle. Your response to me pointing this out was to issue a set of strawman implying that I think things like being cured of polio and and being cured of cancer is also a low standard for a miracle.

I never said such was the case and you were either in error or being deliberately dishonest in trying to make out that I did.

We are basicly nothing? Since nothing is in us, in order to leave us?

I don't know how you concluded that. We are self-aware beings able to exercise choice and reason. We are not 'nothing'.

Since we are just living cells, what makes one person evil, and one person good?

Their beliefs and their actions.

[Mikayeel]

What happens to a piss ant when it passes away? :skeleton:

It stops moving....

Till the decomposers do there job..

[czgibson]

Greetings,

well I've spoken to several English majors and what they say is not what u say... okay, perhaps 2 diff opinions... whats your definition of evidence? how can it be used in a context that is not in relation to 'proof'? whats the clear difference between the 2?

Of course, the words are often used in relation to each other, but then so are "football" and "goalposts", but that doesn't mean they have the same definition.

In a similar way to the examples I've used there, evidence may lead to proof. Proof is often the aim of collecting evidence.

Can you see the difference?

Skavau is asking for evidence so that he can make up his mind. He may have a massive change of mind, and decide that the evidence does indeed constitute proof, but then again, he may not.

Peace

[Mikayeel]

I don't know how you concluded that. We are self-aware beings able to exercise choice and reason. We are not 'nothing'.


Their beliefs and their actions.

If your bunch of cells in your body are self aware! Plus they have their own believe and can judge their own action. Then u have a slight problem, normal cells are not ment to do that!

Remember science is neither good nor bad! An intention has to be put in science in order to make it good or evil! So far i know cells have no intention to them!

[Skavau]

If your bunch of cells in your body are self aware! Plus they have their own believe and can judge their own action. Then u have a slight problem, normal cells are not ment to do that!

But the cells in my body aren't self aware.

Remember science is neither good nor bad! An intention has to be put in science in order to make it good or evil! So far i know cells have no intention to them!

I don't know what you're even talking about here.

[Mikayeel]

But the cells in my body aren't self aware.


I don't know what you're even talking about here.

huh? if your cells are not self aware, then what is ?? You are made of cells arent you?

Everyone is made up of cells, and since you said nothing leaves him(i.e a soul) he is just a bucnh of cells! Do you agree so far? so i could go and explain the next bit

[Skavau]

huh? if your cells are not self aware, then what is ?? You are made of cells arent you?

I am self-aware, not my cells. I am not plural.

Everyone is made up of cells, and since you said nothing leaves him(i.e a soul) he is just a bucnh of cells! Do you agree so far? so i could go and explain the next bit

Yes. So?

[Heera Singh]

what sort of evidence would u need stavau? i honestly don't know... i don't think anybody here can provide it... to one person the simple concept of 'life' is evidence enough... i could tell you that a God-centred man had fought of dozens of enemies with his head in his hand, would u believe that as evidence? if i told you that a man being sawed in half from head to toe, was still reciting praises of the Lord, even though his lips were in 2 different parts - wud u see that as evidence? what if i said a man was sat on a hot plate and continued to speak the Lords praises, and when he was lifted, not a mark was on him - wud u see that as evidence? i can go on and on... to me, these are clear signs of evidence (or proof) that there is an existence of God..

i'm curious, do you believe we all have souls or no?

[Skavau]

what sort of evidence would u need stavau? i honestly don't know... i don't think anybody here can provide it...

It is hard. Excluding empirical evidence (observation of God) and logical deduction to show how God is necessary - actually specifying what is evidence is very hard indeed.

to one person the simple concept of 'life' is evidence enough... i could tell you that a God-centred man had fought of dozens of enemies with his head in his hand, would u believe that as evidence?

Do you mean that metaphorically, as in - a God-centered man was a successful soldier or someone who literally fought his enemies with his head in his hand?

if i told you that a man being sawed in half from head to toe, was still reciting praises of the Lord, even though his lips were in 2 different parts - wud u see that as evidence?

Did that happen?

what if i said a man was sat on a hot plate and continued to speak the Lords praises, and when he was lifted, not a mark was on him - wud u see that as evidence? i can go on and on... to me, these are clear signs of evidence (or proof) that there is an existence of God..

Did that happen?

i'm curious, do you believe we all have souls or no?

No.

[Annie]

salams what do you think of Dawkins book, this is a question to the Atheists.

[Heera Singh]

Do you mean that metaphorically, as in - a God-centered man was a successful soldier or someone who literally fought his enemies with his head in his hand?

Literally speaking.. he was decapitated, and He continued to Fight with his head in his hand... after the battle was over, he launched his head and it landed at the most reveared shrine of Sikhs - Golden Temple. He was a martyr.. http://www.sikhiwiki.com/index.php/Baba_Deep_Singh

Did that happen?

yes..
http://www.srigurugranthsahib.org/gu...i-mati-das.htm

Did that happen?

yes.. i'll find a link for u soon...

[Heera Singh]

sorry... the last one i mentioned didn't happen exactly like that.. the body WAS scathed, but no pain was felt.. my apologies... but the story can be read here..

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?t..._of_Guru_Arjan

[Trumble]

salams what do you think of Dawkins book, this is a question to the Atheists.

If you mean 'The God Delusion' (he has written several, on assorted subjects) - not much. It has some good arguments in it, but also many not-so-good ones and I think it is essential in discussing such an issue that you also consider opposing points of view which Dawkins frequently doesn't do. And a preaching, 'fundamentalist' style always turns me off whichever side it comes from. There are better advocates, and cases, for atheism.

[Isambard]

salams what do you think of Dawkins book, this is a question to the Atheists.

Not a big fan of it. Alot of the arguements are re-hashed from earlier dialogues and he puts too much faith on neo-darwinism and 'New Atheism' which ironically fits under the definition of religion.

[Pygoscelis]

Gosh i find that amazing!

We are basicly nothing? Since nothing is in us, in order to leave us?

Since we are just living cells, what makes one person evil, and one person good?

I have never heard of good cells, and bad cells!

The list continues....

There is no such thing as "good" and "evil" people, as if they were born that way. The world is not some black and white us vs them good vs evil thing. There is potential in all of us for socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. Yes, there are sociopaths who do not experience empathy the way the rest of us do and so are more prone for selfish behaviour than others, but that is more about brain chemistry than magic "good" and "evil" spirits controlling us.

My question to you is if we have "souls" that are "good" or "evil", then how is it that medication can effect our social behaviour? Do chemicals alter our souls?

[Gator]

salams what do you think of Dawkins book, this is a question to the Atheists.

Never read it.

[Grace Seeker]

There is no such thing as "good" and "evil" people, as if they were born that way. The world is not some black and white us vs them good vs evil thing. There is potential in all of us for socially constructive and socially destructive behaviour. Yes, there are sociopaths who do not experience empathy the way the rest of us do and so are more prone for selfish behaviour than others, but that is more about brain chemistry than magic "good" and "evil" spirits controlling us.

My question to you is if we have "souls" that are "good" or "evil", then how is it that medication can effect our social behaviour? Do chemicals alter our souls?

You spoke of socially constructive and social destructive behavior, is one of those to be considered "good" and another "evil" by your way of thinking? Do the terms "good" or "evil" have any meaning at all for you?



I don't know about good and evil souls, maybe I'm an agnostic in that particular area. I think we are souls that temporarily inhabit bodies and that also make good and evil choices.

Also, I think whether something is good or evil can only be determined by comparing it to a standard of absolute Good. (Evil simply being the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat and dark is the absence of light.) Good is that which reflects the nature and character of God's holiness; and apart from God, there is no good.

[truemuslim]

yay i thought it was done for... thanks doctor grace for bringing my thread back wit the shocking thingy they do (forgot the name)

[Grace Seeker]

yay i thought it was done for... thanks doctor grace for bringing my thread back wit the shocking thingy they do (forgot the name)

You mean I "resurrected" your thread?:D

lets get this even mroe... hmm..

christians u believe jesus is son of god and yet u worship jesus...why?

This was back on the first page, did you ever get anyone to address it? Are you still interested in it?

I'll not debate just for debate's sake, but if you are seriously wanting to know how and why it is that Christians can in one breath say that we worship only one God and in the next say that we worship Jesus, I'll be glad to try to help you understand how it is we think about this. Not to convince you (sorry, that's up to God to do, not me) but simply to explain why we do not see this as being inherently contradictory -- though I am sure you do.

[truemuslim]

no one answered it yet so go ahead.lol

[Grace Seeker]

Primarily it is because we understand that Jesus is the incarnation of the one God. Thus we don't end up with a second God, we still have just the one God who has made himself known by revealing himself in a new way.

One might then reasonably ask:

Why, if Jesus is God, does he then pray to God, or cry out to God for help?
or
How, if Jesus is God, can God remain sovereign and infinite while trapped in a finite human body?
or
What happens, if Jesus is God, to God when Jesus supposedly dies on the cross?

Well, first, I don't actually have to be able to answer any of those question for me to know that it is still true. The scriptures tell us that Jesus is God. If we trust the scriptures to speak truth, then we know it is true even if we don't understand the how or why of it all?

Second, I need to continually remind myself that it was not later generations of the church that said that Jesus was God, it was the disciples themselves who declared this to be so in their sermons, in their teaching, in their telling the story of the Jesus that they had known, eaten with, walked with, and in some cases, even seen crucified and then raised again from the dead. This understanding has been key to defining who and what Christians were while Paul was yet still simply another Jew intent on stamping out this new movement in its infancy before they even had been given given the name "Christian" because of what they taught about the Christ.

Third, this experience of the early church (pre-Pauline) was that Jesus was both Lord and God, the holy One of Israel, one being with the Father. They had not yet articulated concepts like the Trinity; they were still looking for words to describe it. But they knew, out of their own experience, that it was true; assumedly based on the resurrection and the presence of God flooding their lives in a new way in the person of the Holy Spirit as well. Thus, the early church would do two things: (1) they would proclaim this simple message of God in Christ and (2) they would look for better words and ways to express this understanding. Over time those words would come, big fancy words like "hypostatic union" and "perichoresis", words that were brand new then but have become common place today like "trinity".

These were not things that they took lightly. After all, they were all Jews. Jews who were passionate about the great texts of their faith: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." And yet, they knew this Jesus to be God. They had been listening when he was examined while on trial in the Sanhedrin and they had asked him, "Are you then the Son of God?" He replied, "You are right in saying I am" (Luke 22:70). They had seen him do things that could only be done by the power of God and they had heard him claim things, like forgiving sins, that were reserved to God alone to claim (Luke 5:17-26).

But it was the resurrection that sealed the deal. It lead Thomas to call him not just Lord, but also God (John 20:28), and Jesus blessed him for it. It lead Peter and Stephen and others to preach this message about a new way that God was dealing with humanity, through the cross of Christ and that salvation could be found no other place than in his name.

To those, such as modern day Muslims, and Jews from that old Pharisee Paul to the present day, or to anyone else who can only conceive of God in a narrowly defined box, the idea of lifting up Jesus as being this very same God is blasphemous. But it is what we believe, and that is why we have no problem worshipping Jesus, because in doing so we understand that we are worshipping the same God as before, the one God who created heaven and earth has also walked among us and died for fallen humanity. Whatever name you may know him by: Yahweh, Allah, the great I AM, his name is also Jesus. He is one and the same.

It is not shirk, for we declare no partners, what we declare is that he is great enough to be both present and invisible, human and infinite, Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) all at the same time and still be just one.

[truemuslim]

...wow...thats loong... im sure i will ..try..to finish it all tho...juss a minute

[truemuslim]

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not
When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....
4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

[Grace Seeker]

You are doing a cut and paste job. I did not. Please take the time to read what I wrote. I covered your whole post in my last paragraph:

what we declare is that he is great enough to be both present and invisible, human and infinite, Father and Son (and Holy Spirit) all at the same time and still be just one.

[truemuslim]

of ourse its a copy and paste...lol u seriously typed all that!!? lol and i did read it but it doesnt make jesus seem powerful enough to actually be god...

[Grace Seeker]

Yes, I did. Why? Because I was willing to take you seriously, and give you a real response, not something that was written as some sort of apologetic's exercise.

Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

Such a conclusion is not even close to a correct statement of what the either the church recognizes or the Bible makes clear.

Colossians 1
15He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Note, it specifically DOES say that "in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him." The term "firstborn" here does not imply that he is a created being either. I would be glad to explain it, but you objected to my last post as long, and surely going into the the language and cultural issues behind that term would make it a long post as well. Suffice it to say that Christ is OVER creation not a part OF creation.

Also, I said that I would post "if you are seriously wanting to know how and why it is that Christians [believe something]". But I was not interested in debate for debate's sake. So, are you seeking to learn or to argue?

[john316]

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not
When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not
While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God
God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....
4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own
Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?
The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.
If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

I kinda understand that you have good sincere questions wbut like i said before in other thread. Jesus took on the image of sinful man. but was God by nature in the sense that He never sinned, while he walked on Earth. He aks the rich young man at one instance when the man called him good. he said why do you call me good there is none good but God. He was basically saying if I'm good I am God.
Another argument Jesus was on earth not on heaven. heaven is a totally different dimension which we know nothing about. On earth you dont see everything but in heaven you see everything. So it is apparent whe Jesus got to heaven he would probably know everything. Notice that everywhere in English versions of the scripure we call Jesus 'Lord' or 'God' we dont call him 'lord' or 'god'. because God is refered to the one true God. God is never called 'god' or 'lord'

[truemuslim]

^ none... im seeking to debate...ok and learn...and about hte copy paste i read all i pasted before i pasted it of course and it seems to be really close to what i already was going to type.. but more info...

also i have some questions for u...and they gonna keep on comin so...

1. Have any of your prayers ever, in actuality, been answered?

2. Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

3. To what sorts of depravity would you descend if it were proved there was no god?

answer these first? :w:

[Sheffield]

lets get this even mroe... hmm..

christians u believe jesus is son of god and yet u worship jesus...why?

agnostics... wait i cant ask a question about that for two reasons.. 1) agnostics dont debate like u said and 2) i dunt even kno what ur religion is..sorry

athiests... hmm.. i already asked: athiests why do u believe no god exists?

and muslims...wait im debating on the muslim side so i cant...hehe

We are all sons and daughters of God the Father.

Jesus said he is the Son of God.

Muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet so how can Moslem's not believe his words?

Now my questions to you is:

Muslims believe that Christians before Muhammad went to heaven, and Muhammad is the last prophet, so why do you debate the truth of the bible? Do you believe that God was initially wrong?

[truemuslim]

no, first, please tell me who said christians who died before muhammed are going to heaven? (jw) and second... what happened to the people who died before jesus?

[Sheffield]

1. Have any of your prayers ever, in actuality, been answered?

2. Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

3. To what sorts of depravity would you descend if it were proved there was no god?

answer these first? :w:

I assume from this you do not believe in God.

Some people take up a religion or cult not because they believe it, but because it suits their ideals - especially negative ones.

Muhammad became a Christian before he became a Muslim.

But then after he was rejected by Christan's, why did Mohammad begin to worship in the Ka'ab while there were still idols in it, and in the same fashion as the pagan Arabs?

After destroying Mecca, he later he removed the idols. There was one idol though, it was the moon god, it was called allah. It's symbol was of a moon and star. It has been around long before Mohammad.

So my question is, after Mohammad was rejected by the Christians, why did he command that all Muslims stop praying upwards and begin praying facing the Ka'ab, and why did he lock the Ka'ab. Was the moon god removed also or do you not know?

[Heera Singh]

Now my questions to you is:

Muslims believe that Christians before Muhammad went to heaven, and Muhammad is the last prophet, so why do you debate the truth of the bible? Do you believe that God was initially wrong?

I'm not muslim but I'll jump in here.

How can you state the bible as truth, when it was compiled years (even decades) after the death of Jesus? there's no way to verify the writings in there to be accurate... and there is enough proof to determine even over the years the bible has been tampered with, and even christians i kno won't refute that claim... so, do you believe God would allow His 'word' to be altered?

[Sheffield]

no, first, please tell me who said christians who died before muhammed are going to heaven? (jw) and second... what happened to the people who died before jesus?

The scrolls containing the old testament were around before Jesus.

Christianity goes back to the begining and follows a time line spanding over 2000 years before Jesus, that is why it is used by archaeologist to study ancient history.

Prophets before Muhammad are the prophets of Moslems as well, nothing is disputed of Christianity before Muhammad by Muhammad. He the only the last prophet for Muslims, he was preaching about God just as Jesus was.

At least before the Ka'ab anyway.

[Grace Seeker]

^ none... im seeking to debate...ok and learn...and about hte copy paste i read all i pasted before i pasted it of course and it seems to be really close to what i already was going to type.. but more info...

also i have some questions for u...and they gonna keep on comin so...

1. Have any of your prayers ever, in actuality, been answered?

2. Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

3. To what sorts of depravity would you descend if it were proved there was no god?

answer these first? :w:

I'm thinking from the manner of your post that it was directed to me, and not John316, so I'll answer your questions as I am not trying to avoid disagreement. But there is a difference between a genuine debate that requires a mutual exchange of information, and what typically passes for debates in these settings where people just cut and paste other's ideas as if finding them on some website makes them true.

Example your second question:

2. Is it possible that the devout Catholic, Adolph Hitler, could be in heaven if he had truly repented prior to his death?

It assumes facts not previously in evidence nor agreed upon. To my knowledge Hitler was NOT a devout Catholic. Thus, there is no way that I, or anyone else, can answer the question you have posed.

As to your other questions:

1. Have any of your prayers ever, in actuality, been answered?

Yes.

3. To what sorts of depravity would you descend if it were proved there was no god?

I don't know. But if there were no God, then there really wouldn't be any standard by which one could call anything depraved would there? It would just be different than that which was accepted or desired by others.

[Grace Seeker]

Christianity goes back to the begining and follows a time line spanding over 2000 years before Jesus, that is why it is used by archaeologist to study ancient history.

Really? I'm a Christian pastor, and in years of seminary classes, pastoring a church, reading my Bible, and doing other forms of study, I have never heard anyone suggest what you have suggested. I think perhaps you are mis-stating something else that you might have met to say instead of what you did. But, I am unclear as to what it might be. Your present statemnt is just patently false. Christianity does not go back to over 2000 years before Jesus. In fact, it doesn't even start during Jesus' lifetime, but shortly aftewards:

Acts 11
25Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, 26and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

[Sheffield]

I'm not muslim but I'll jump in here.

How can you state the bible as truth, when it was compiled years (even decades) after the death of Jesus? there's no way to verify the writings in there to be accurate... and there is enough proof to determine even over the years the bible has been tampered with, and even christians i kno won't refute that claim... so, do you believe God would allow His 'word' to be altered?

Let's say you have kids, and you ask them to write rules on how they should behave in your house.

There intentions are good and they right good rules that are correct in general in their own simplistic way.

Are you going to change those rules?

This is a simplistic debate that could go on endlessly, you either get it or you don't.

[truemuslim]

ok grace seeker :)... next atheists:

1. Where does all of the incredibly complex information come from that is stored within DNA? Information doesn’t just appear by itself. Someone has to put it there.

2. Isn’t it a bit extreme to assert "God does not exist"? To make such a statement you would have to have complete knowledge and to have been everywhere in the universe. Maybe God dwells somewhere in the universe you don’t know of or have not been to? Is that possible?

3. Where does all the matter in the universe come from?

im done for now...:w:

[Sheffield]

Really? I'm a Christian pastor, and in years of seminary classes, pastoring a church, reading my Bible, and doing other forms of study, I have never heard anyone suggest what you have suggested. I think perhaps you are mis-stating something else that you might have met to say instead of what you did. But, I am unclear as to what it might be. Your present statemnt is just patently false. Christianity does not go back to over 2000 years before Jesus. In fact, it doesn't even start during Jesus' lifetime, but shortly aftewards:

Christianity goes back to the time God created the world and everything in it.

I could go on but I'm not going to, if it's kept short, people will read it.

Your posts are too long, no one reads them. If you have a point to make, summarise it or you will turn people away from the forum out of boredom.

[Grace Seeker]

Christianity goes back to the time God created the world and everything in it.

I could go on but I'm not going to, if it's kept short, people will read it.

Your posts are too long, no one reads them. If you have a point to make, summarise it or you will turn people away from the forum out of boredom.

Your opinion.

[Pygoscelis]

I for one have always enjoyed Grace Seeker's points of view, even though I rarely agree with them.

Diversity of ideas is what makes boards like this interesting.

[ranma1/2]

ok grace seeker :)... next atheists:

1. Where does all of the incredibly complex information come from that is stored within DNA? Information doesn’t just appear by itself. Someone has to put it there.

2. Isn’t it a bit extreme to assert "God does not exist"? To make such a statement you would have to have complete knowledge and to have been everywhere in the universe. Maybe God dwells somewhere in the universe you don’t know of or have not been to? Is that possible?

3. Where does all the matter in the universe come from?

im done for now...:w:

ok true poe.
1 define information.
2 show that unicorns, thor, smurfs, interstellar teapot ect.. dont exists...
of course it should be easier to prove a postitve than a negative.
3 god of the gaps much?

[*Hana*]

The scrolls containing the old testament were around before Jesus.

Christianity goes back to the begining and follows a time line spanding over 2000 years before Jesus, that is why it is used by archaeologist to study ancient history.

Prophets before Muhammad are the prophets of Moslems as well, nothing is disputed of Christianity before Muhammad by Muhammad. He the only the last prophet for Muslims, he was preaching about God just as Jesus was.

At least before the Ka'ab anyway.

Errrmmm, Christianity does NOT go back to the beginning of time and not anytime before Jesus. Christians are followers of Christ. They can't follow what never existed. :hmm: Christianity came AFTER Jesus left the earth and in actuality, DURING His time it was considered more a sect of Judaism.

Hana

[Gator]

ok grace seeker :)... next atheists:

1. Where does all of the incredibly complex information come from that is stored within DNA? Information doesn’t just appear by itself. Someone has to put it there.

From the incredibly complex natural laws. National Enquirer seems to so a good job of creating information. Why does someone have to put it there. Did someone have to physically put a small rock on the bottom of the ocean, or could it have been blown out of a volcano?

2. Isn’t it a bit extreme to assert "God does not exist"? To make such a statement you would have to have complete knowledge and to have been everywhere in the universe. Maybe God dwells somewhere in the universe you don’t know of or have not been to? Is that possible?

Not in my view. You have to work with the information you have and how your brain processes it and take your best shot. Maybe.

3. Where does all the matter in the universe come from?

Who knows?! Our little brains can barely manage gravity nevermind the mind boggelingly complex physical laws. E=mc^2 and all that. What I think? Possibly the entire amount of energy in the universe actually equals zero (matter, antimatter, gravity, acceleration, etc).

0
0=1-1
0=0.5+0.5-0.5-0.5
0.5=0.5+0.5-0.5
0.25+0.25=2*(0.5)-(0.3+0.2)

Alot of something from nothing (granted the shift in 4).

im done for now...:w:

Hi there. Usual caveat that these are my personal opinions, not any Truth.

Hope this thread gives you a better idea about how I and many of the other atheists think (sometimes the same, sometimes differently).

Thanks.

[Grace Seeker]

2 show that unicorns, thor, smurfs, interstellar teapot ect.. dont exists...

Interstellar teapots don't exist?! :eek:

Pray tell, what do you call Sagitarious? see The Teapot in Sagittarius.

[*Hana*]

Christianity goes back to the time God created the world and everything in it.

I could go on but I'm not going to, if it's kept short, people will read it.

Your posts are too long, no one reads them. If you have a point to make, summarise it or you will turn people away from the forum out of boredom.

You seem to be a new member here, so welcome to LI.

I would strongly recommend you read through some posts to get an idea of how members interact with each other. Grace Seeker has always tried to provide answers to questions with absolute respect and has always participated positively to many threads here.

I also don't agree with Grace Seeker's beliefs, but I don't have to agree with them. Our differences is what allows us to discuss and share our thoughts and ideas. We can also hope Grace Seeker will learn and eventually say the Shahadah! :D But, if not, at least we have all had the opportunity to learn something and, if nothing else, become more tolerant.

So, we not only have to make sure what we post is accurate to the best of our ability, we have to make sure we always try to discuss in a respectful manner. :sunny:

Hana

[Grace Seeker]

Errrmmm, Christianity does NOT go back to the beginning of time and not anytime before Jesus. Christians are followers of Christ. They can't follow what never existed. :hmm: Christianity came AFTER Jesus left the earth and in actuality, DURING His time it was considered more a sect of Judaism.

Hana

During Jesus' time here, it wasn't even a sect. During his time here, it hadn't even formed yet. To the eyes of others, Jesus was just one more itinerate rabbi with a band of followers.

It was after Jesus' ascension that it became first a sect within Judaism, and then later a religion in its own right.

I could evidence that with quotes from the Bible, Josephus, Pliny, and Nero, but I wouldn't want to bore Sheffield. So you'll just have to take my word for it, like he expects us to take his.

[جوري]

Interstellar teapots don't exist?! :eek:

Pray tell, what do you call Sagitarious? see The Teapot in Sagittarius.

Gene:

that was brill.. :lol:
can't believe you participated in this topic?.. and I can't believe it has actually gone on as long as it did..11-12 pages ..:confused:
I am gonna unsubscribe myself in a hurry, but thought your post was great ;D


peace

[*Hana*]

During Jesus' time here, it wasn't even a sect. During his time here, it hadn't even formed yet. To the eyes of others, Jesus was just one more itinerate rabbi with a band of followers.

It was after Jesus' ascension that it became first a sect within Judaism, and then later a religion in its own right.

I could evidence that with quotes from the Bible, Josephus, Pliny, and Nero, but I wouldn't want to bore Sheffield. So you'll just have to take my word for it, like he expects us to take his.

I don't disagree with you at all. That's why I said "more of a sect". It was for lack of a better term.

Hana

[Sheffield]

Errrmmm, Christianity does NOT go back to the beginning of time and not anytime before Jesus. Christians are followers of Christ. They can't follow what never existed. :hmm: Christianity came AFTER Jesus left the earth and in actuality, DURING His time it was considered more a sect of Judaism.

Hana

Your opinion.

Thanks to Grace Seeker, you are incorrect and have started a pointless debate.

Yes, Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, but Jesus didn't invent a religion, the religion was always there, God was always there, for example Christians believe that Noah went to heaven even though he was around long before Jesus.

The bible goes back thousands of years before Jesus, it's all the same religion of course.

Jesus reminded us of how we should treat one another, if we all followed what Jesus taught, we would live in a very peaceful world.

Jesus showed us not to be afraid to die. He died in a horrific way. And when non Christians mock and show disrespect to him, it is one of the worst things they can do in their life.

[Sheffield]

Errrmmm, Christianity does NOT go back to the beginning of time and not anytime before Jesus. Christians are followers of Christ. They can't follow what never existed. :hmm: Christianity came AFTER Jesus left the earth and in actuality, DURING His time it was considered more a sect of Judaism.

Hana

Thanks to Grace Seeker, you are incorrect.

Yes, Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, but Jesus didn't invent a religion, the religion was always there, God was always there, for example Christians believe that Noah went to heaven even though he was around long before Jesus.

The bible goes back thousands of years before Jesus.

Jesus reminded us of how we should treat one another, if we all followed what Jesus taught, we would live in a very peaceful world.

Jesus even showed us not to be afraid to die. He died in a horrific way. And when non Christians mock and show disrespect to him, it is one of the worst things they can do in their life.

[*Hana*]

Thanks to Grace Seeker, you are incorrect.

Yes, Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, but Jesus didn't invent a religion, the religion was always there, God was always there, for example Christians believe that Noah went to heaven even though he was around long before Jesus.

The bible goes back thousands of years before Jesus.

Jesus reminded us of how we should treat one another, if we all followed what Jesus taught, we would live in a very peaceful world.

Jesus even showed us not to be afraid to die. He died in a horrific way. And when non Christians mock and show disrespect to him, it is one of the worst things they can do in their life.

Do you have any clue what you're talking about??? Or do you just argue with anyone about everything for the sake of it. READ FIRST DUDE!! Did you see my response to Grace Seeker??

First you say Christianity went back to the beginning of time BEFORE Jesus, now you're babbling about something different. Get an organized thought and come discuss.

Hana

[Heera Singh]

Let's say you have kids, and you ask them to write rules on how they should behave in your house.

There intentions are good and they right good rules that are correct in general in their own simplistic way.

Are you going to change those rules?

This is a simplistic debate that could go on endlessly, you either get it or you don't.

This makes absolutely no sense.

You're comparing the 'rules' I (as a regular human being) would give my kids, to that of a Prophet giving to the people (and which is being proclaimed as the word of God). You can't even COMPARE the two, and to do so would be foolish.

Christians believe every man is with Sin. Therefore not all man can be trusted. Therefore, it wouldn't be illogical to say that Man (who is with sin) might have added his OWN words into the bible (since the bible was compiled decades after Jesus' death) to proclaim it that of the Lords (or, that of Jesus for christians, since they think jesus is God). The bible was compiled of stories that were passed down and also many of them not 'written' at the time. And we all kno how stories can have their meanings and words changed over days, let alone deceades. Not to forget, that especially in a time where religious doubt was HUGE, they have added into the Bible that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven, and there is no other way.

Now, again, there is absolutely NO evidence that anything written in the bible was ACTUALLY written by Jesus. In fact, there is evidence AGAINST that fact, as i mentioned earlier, since it's proven that the Bible HAS been altered over time.

[john316]

Hana

no offense but your religion is supposed to be a religionof peace. I'm afraid you've lost your peace of mind. I know that there is one thing what you like most about me-my absence. :)

[snakelegs]

Thanks to Grace Seeker, you are incorrect and have started a pointless debate.

Yes, Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, but Jesus didn't invent a religion, the religion was always there, God was always there, for example Christians believe that Noah went to heaven even though he was around long before Jesus.

The bible goes back thousands of years before Jesus, it's all the same religion of course.

Jesus reminded us of how we should treat one another, if we all followed what Jesus taught, we would live in a very peaceful world.

Jesus showed us not to be afraid to die. He died in a horrific way. And when non Christians mock and show disrespect to him, it is one of the worst things they can do in their life.

i think jews would be quite surprised at this news!

[جوري]

i think jews would be quite surprised at this news!

lol.. I believe this is how new sects start every day..

peace

[*Hana*]

Hana

no offense but your religion is supposed to be a religionof peace. I'm afraid you've lost your peace of mind. I know that there is one thing what you like most about me-my absence. :)

loool john316, please stop running around the forum like you know everyone. Whether you're here or not has absolutely NO effect on me whatsoever.

You keep coming to babble on without speaking your own mind, and someone else comes along arguing with everyone with no knowledge and you want me to just sit back and nod quietly. "fraid not, John316....don't try to divert attention away from what you cannot answer by making false accusations about me or anyone else. If you type it, then you better be able to back it and if you can't...don't type accusations. It's a sign of weakness. :thankyou:

oh and :peace:

Hana

[Sheffield]

During Jesus' time here, it wasn't even a sect. During his time here, it hadn't even formed yet. To the eyes of others, Jesus was just one more itinerate rabbi with a band of followers.

It was after Jesus' ascension that it became first a sect within Judaism, and then later a religion in its own right.

I could evidence that with quotes from the Bible, Josephus, Pliny, and Nero, but I wouldn't want to bore Sheffield. So you'll just have to take my word for it, like he expects us to take his.

I really don't like that, you sound like your trying to commercialise religion, in your eyes it's a whole new religion rather then being THE religion.

Hope your not a paster who goes on about collecting money for God so that you can use it to buy the latest new purse for yourself.

[snakelegs]

I really don't like that, you sound like your trying to commercialise religion, in your eyes it's a whole new religion rather then being THE religion.

Hope your not a paster who goes on about collecting money for God so that you can use it to buy the latest new purse for yourself.

in case you haven't been notified - christianity is a whole new religion!

[Sheffield]

Now, again, there is absolutely NO evidence that anything written in the bible was ACTUALLY written by Jesus. In fact, there is evidence AGAINST that fact, as i mentioned earlier, since it's proven that the Bible HAS been altered over time.

When the bible is translated alone specific words must be changed to words of the new language.

But Noah did not read the bible as it is today and of it's exact words. Does that mean Noah can't go to heaven?

And what about people who don't read every single exact word of the bible?

Your argument is pety. The general understanding of the bible remains the same and that's all that matters.

God has allowed the bible to be written by people, if your intentions are good, it's meaning will be clear and not obscured.

[Sheffield]

in case you haven't been notified - christianity is a whole new religion!

Then where did the Old Testiment come from?

[*Hana*]

When the bible is translated alone specific words must be changed to words of the new language.

But Noah did not read the bible as it is today and of it's exact words. Does that mean Noah can't go to heaven?

And what about people who don't read every single exact word of the bible?

Your argument is pety. The general understanding of the bible remains the same and that's all that matters.

God has allowed the bible to be written by people, if your intentions are good, it's meaning will be clear and not obscured.

Actually, that's EXACTLY what it means. Remember, if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and saviour...no heaven. Poor Noah...He never got to meet Jesus or hear His message. :( And all the prophets and people before Jesus...:( So unfair, so unjust all those people being condemned to Hell only because God didn't allow them the opportunity to hear of Jesus. :cry:

Peace indeed,
Hana

[*Hana*]

Then where did the Old Testiment come from?

:uhwhat

[جوري]

Then where did the Old Testiment come from?

As far as the Jews are concerned, there is no christianity!
there is no Old T, New T.. there is only the Torah..
in fact this is what they think of Jesus and Mary

"Jesus was a ******* born of adultery." (Yebamoth 49b, p.324).
"Mary was a *****: Jesus (Balaam) was an evil man." (Sanhedrin 106a &b,
p.725).
"Jesus was a magician and a fool. Mary was an adulteress". (Shabbath 104b,
p.504).

The Text
Sanhedrin 106a
R. Yochanan said (regarding Balaam): In the beginning a prophet, in the end a
sorcerer.
Rav Papa said: As people say, "She was the descendant of princes and rulers,
she played the harlot with carpenters."


So, that is what they think of your God.. perhaps now you can stop saying the old T new T, as far as they are concerned there is no new T.. there is a heretical sect ( a new religion!)


peace

[john316]

Actually, that's EXACTLY what it means. Remember, if you don't accept Jesus as your lord and saviour...no heaven. Poor Noah...He never got to meet Jesus or hear His message. :( And all the prophets and people before Jesus...:( So unfair, so unjust all those people being condemned to Hell only because God didn't allow them the opportunity to hear of Jesus. :cry:

Peace indeed,
Hana

refuted big time.............please read your bible.....you've gotta a reading assignment(Psalms 19:1-6). Matthew 2.....

[*Hana*]

refuted big time.............please read your bible.....you've gotta a reading assignment(Psalms 19:1-6). Matthew 2.....

Good answer :giggling:

[Sheffield]

Do you have any clue what you're talking about???

Hana

Did you read my earlier posts?

Well, I have a question for you.

Why to Muslim women say they cover themselves for Islam when pagan Arab women who worshiped idols were doing it for thousands of years before Mohammad?

And why do they do Muslims women insist on doing it in western countries where it has long been considered rude and impolite.

I quote the head Shak of Australia as saying:

"Meat" (Australian Women) must remain covered or "Cats" (referring to gang rapists convicted of raping a young Australian girl) will not be at fault for "Eating" (raping) the "Meat".

Now can someone please explain to me why the head Shak of Australia would say that?

[*Hana*]

Did you read my earlier posts?

Umm, yes, which is why I asked if you had a clue? :hmm:

Well, I have a question for you.

Why to Muslim women say they cover themselves for Islam when pagan Arab women who worshiped idols were doing it for thousands of years before Mohammad?

Because God ordained them to cover...read your bible.

And why do they do Muslims women insist on doing it in western countries where it has long been considered rude and impolite.

By whose standards? I follow the laws of God, not man. You try that too. :sunny: Wasn't always considered impolite now was it? Is that what you thought of Nuns?? :( My Auntie (A devout nun), would be very sad to hear you say that.

I quote the head Shak of Australia as saying:

"Meat" (Australian Women) must remain covered or "Cats" (referring to gang rapists convicted of raping a young Australian girl) will not be at fault for "Eating" (raping) the "Meat".

I don't care what some Sheik says...I care about what God says. PERIOD. A Sheik is not a Prophet nor a spokesperson for God. Did you see this Sheik's qualifications? If I said I was a Sheik would you believe me? :D

Now can someone please explain to me why the head Shak of Australia would say that?

Read above....who cares and what exactly is a HEAD Sheik????

Hana

oh, and peace

[جوري]

Hana

oh, and peace

Ukthy.. why do you bother? this is the same moron who is speaking of idols of mecca and the 'moon God'-- have you asked for his sources?
in fact let's put it this way, I challenge him to bring me one authentic historically accurate source for any of the crap he spews about prophet Mohammed (p) and the moon God ...

history of that region was only recorded by Islamic scholars and Muslim historians.. anything henceforth is merely a secondary opinion of desperate pagans or hyper-imaginative islamophobes who have reduced God to the level of a man and think we should all savor their illogical notions..

btw, here is an amusing piece about his bible, if he in fact reads it

(1 Corinthians 11:3-12)

The head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

:w:

[*Hana*]

Ukthy.. why do you bother? this is the same moron who is speaking of idols of mecca and the 'moon God'-- have you asked for his sources?
in fact let's put it this way, I challenge him to bring me one authentic historically accurate source for any of the crap he states about idols or the moon God ...

history of that region was only recorded by Islamic scholars and Muslim historians.. anything henceforth is merely a secondary opinion of desperate pagans who have reduced God to the level of a man and think we should all savor their illogical notions

LOOOOOL omg, noooo, not a Morey follower. Oh that's hilarious. I didn't think anyone believed that man anymore. Thought this guy was a newbie that didn't know any better. I did my best to convince him not to post, but...it was for nothing. Wallahi, I thought he was just an immature kid that lacked knowledge. :hmm: Oh well.

Thanks for the heads-up!

:w:
Hana

[Grace Seeker]

Then where did the Old Testiment come from?

The Old Testament is a testament to the old covenant that God made with the nation of Israel. In Jesus, we who are Christians, understand that God has initiated a New Covenant. This new covenant provides a new way for God to connect with humanity in and through Jesus Christ. The Cross is the key to all of this. And Paul shows that this religion that "goes way back", as you put it, is NOT the same as that of the Old Covenant, which was based on the law. No, the New Covenant is entered into by faith, not the keeping of the Law.

Thus there are some things that have always been true with respect to God and remain so, that "the righeous live by faith" is one of them. But Christianity is a new thing that God has done in Jesus Christ. We believe that Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to the day when God's anointed, the Christ, would come. And thus by faith, they were still saved in and through the work of Christ on the cross. But the religion they practiced was not Christianity. There is a difference, and if you haven't yet understood that difference, then, to paraphrase an earlier post, I'm afraid you just don't get it.

[snakelegs]

Then where did the Old Testiment come from?

i think traditional jews believe that the torah (first 5 books) was from God and the rest was written by various people.
if jesus said some of the things attributed to him in the NT, he did indeed start a new religion.
judaism, like islam, is staunchly, 100% monotheistic.

[جوري]

LOOOOOL omg, noooo, not a Morey follower. Oh that's hilarious. I didn't think anyone believed that man anymore. Thought this guy was a newbie that didn't know any better. I did my best to convince him not to post, but...it was for nothing. Wallahi, I thought he was just an immature kid that lacked knowledge. :hmm: Oh well.

Thanks for the heads-up!

:w:
Hana

This whole thread lacks direction, substance, motive, structure, or reason, I honestly didn't want to partake at all.. it is like a huge cauldron of miscellaneous and incongruous ideas.. I am not sure where anyone is going with it? :hmm:

:w:

[Woodrow]

This whole thread lacks direction, substance, motive, structure, or reason, I honestly didn't want to partake at all.. it is like a huge cauldron of miscellaneous and incongruous ideas.. I am not sure where anyone is going with it? :hmm:

:w:

Agreed. six days of questionable fun is enough.

:threadclo:

[*Hana*]

The Old Testament is a testament to the old covenant that God made with the nation of Israel. In Jesus, we who are Christians, understand that God has initiated a New Covenant. This new covenant provides a new way for God to connect with humanity in and through Jesus Christ. The Cross is the key to all of this. And Paul shows that this religion that "goes way back", as you put it, is NOT the same as that of the Old Covenant, which was based on the law. No, the New Covenant is entered into by faith, not the keeping of the Law.

Thus there are some things that have always been true with respect to God and remain so, that "the righeous live by faith" is one of them. But Christianity is a new thing that God has done in Jesus Christ. We believe that Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to the day when God's anointed, the Christ, would come. And thus by faith, they were still saved in and through the work of Christ on the cross. But the religion they practiced was not Christianity. There is a difference, and if you haven't yet understood that difference, then, to paraphrase an earlier post, I'm afraid you just don't get it.

Nice explanation. Maybe he'll understand it now.

Hana