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Bassam Zawadi
01-30-2008, 07:54 AM
Assalamu Alaykum

Find a whole series of articles over here http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...se_the_bible__ refuting this widely used argument by the missionaries.
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Walter
02-08-2008, 04:58 PM
Hi Bassam:

I have read some of your referenced writings and will happily engage you on this topic. Let us simply agree to be polite.

I agree with you that Islam does not endorse the Bible. However, the Qur’an appears to endorse the Bible. I say “appears to” because it mentions several books of the Bible.

Regards,
Grenville
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Bassam Zawadi
02-08-2008, 05:19 PM
fine, go ahead.
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Walter
02-08-2008, 09:26 PM
Hi Bassam:

OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?

If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Regards,
Grenville
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snakelegs
02-08-2008, 09:36 PM
according to muslims, these books have been corrupted and changed over time.
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*Hana*
02-08-2008, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Bassam:

OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?

If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Regards,
Grenville
Snakelegs is absolutely correct.

We believe in the ORIGINAL scripture sent to previous Prophets. We do not believe they are the same as what you have today. Of course, mixed in with what is now "the bible" are some remainders or traces of the original scripture, but we only accept that which agrees with the Qur'an.

Peace,
Hana
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Pk_#2
02-08-2008, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Bassam:

OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?

If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Regards,
Grenville
Peace, blessing and Mercy be upon those who follow guidance and the straight path,

We believe that Allah sent these books, But we also believe that currently only the Qur'an contains the infalliable (spellin'?) words of Allah,

Tk.
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Walter
02-08-2008, 10:11 PM
Hi Snakelegs, Hana_Aku and Happy:

That is the typical Islamic response. However, please note:

1. There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.


2. The Bible that we have today is basically the same as what was around during Mohammed’s lifetime. Therefore, regardless of the amount of minor copying errors, Mohammed deemed the Book to be important enough to be read and believed by Muslims.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Pk_#2
02-08-2008, 11:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Snakelegs, Hana_Aku and Happy:

That is the typical Islamic response. However, please note:

1. There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.


2. The Bible that we have today is basically the same as what was around during Mohammed’s lifetime. Therefore, regardless of the amount of minor copying errors, Mohammed deemed the Book to be important enough to be read and believed by Muslims.

Regards,
Grenville
This vicar in the church of England right.., told one of my teachers right.. that the corruption of the bible and where the bible has been corrupted is written in this book which contains the history of the church..

But I never did find out where this mystery book was,

By the way, A few errors can make a big difference bruv,

Tk.
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*Hana*
02-08-2008, 11:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Snakelegs, Hana_Aku and Happy:

That is the typical Islamic response. However, please note:

1. There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.


2. The Bible that we have today is basically the same as what was around during Mohammed’s lifetime. Therefore, regardless of the amount of minor copying errors, Mohammed deemed the Book to be important enough to be read and believed by Muslims.

Regards,
Grenville
lol what you mean is that this is the typical Christian claim and typical response when we do respond lol

Are you kidding me?? There is no evidence the Bible has been corrupted?? There are many verses in the bible that were never found in the oldest manuscripts. These are NOT simply copyist errors, they are blatant additions to verses....verses miraculously appear where they never existed. This was very common practice between the Jewish and Christian scribes and is well known and accepted by the vast majority of theological scholars. They have also been removed from the modern day translations in an attempt to bring the books closer to the original manuscripts (which they don't have!)

Now, they have found MANY added/deleted verses, so, would you like to guess as to how many they have yet to find?? Errors in the Bible, "the word of God", means they are NOT the words of God and considering there are NO original manuscripts, there is no way to go back to see exactly how many times they were changed over the centuries. The council of Nicea sure made lots of changes and additions....and that was only ONE council....there were many others and it was also 325 years AFTER the life of Jesus.

LOL care to back up your statement that Muhammed deemed the bible accurate? Show us the proof, not your lip service. And, I sincerely advice you to stay away from hate sites in your attempt. I would also like to have you tell me when the first Arabic bible was printed, and I guarantee you...it wasn't during the life time of Muhammed, pbuh. I also guarantee you that Muslims NEVER believed the collections of stories in the "bible" were God's word.

You may also want to search the form as this ridiculous claim has been refuted many times.

Hana
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Whatsthepoint
02-08-2008, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
I would also like to have you tell me when the first Arabic bible was printed, and I guarantee you...it wasn't during the life time of Muhammed, pbuh.
Yeah, seeing that he lived centuries before Gutenberg..:okay:
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*Hana*
02-08-2008, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yeah, seeing that he lived centuries before Gutenberg..:okay:
lol, ok written :shade:
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Whatsthepoint
02-08-2008, 11:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Are you kidding me?? There is no evidence the Bible has been corrupted?? There are many verses in the bible that were never found in the oldest manuscripts.
Care to elaborate, provide examples...?
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Trumble
02-08-2008, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
There is no evidence that the Bible has been corrupted. There are copies of manuscripts going back 200 years BC and the copying is remarkably accurate. Admittedly, there are a few minor copying errors but they are negligible.
Yes. And no. There is no confirmation either way that the Bible has been 'corrupted' in terms of significant doctrinal content but the second two sentences in that paragraph are nonsense. The copying was probably no less accurate than that of any other ancient works but every significant early copy and manuscript we have are different. The vast majority of those differences are trivial (case endings, etc) but even the 'minority' figure of different words, missed sentences, etc. is huge.

However... the fact is that in the case of the NT that most of those errors - and certainly most of the significant errors would have occurred during the early spread of Christianity, i.e before the Qur'an was written (or revealed, depending on your point of view). In the case of the Jewish Bible it would have been rather earlier. In which case,

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Exactly which "scripture which He sent to those before" were early muslims supposed to 'believe' in?! The idea that this Biblical 'corruption' only set in after Mohammed is absurd. The only versions at that time would have have nearly as 'corrupt' as those that came later, and nobody would have any way of telling which was 'right' even in the unlikely event there was more than one copy available.
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جوري
02-08-2008, 11:58 PM
the scriptures before are
'scrolls of Abraham'
'Psalms' -zabur' of David
Torah
Injeel..
the Quran being the 5th

doesn't matter whether or not they are corrupted, what matters is that you acknowledge that they were revealed!

cheers
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*Hana*
02-09-2008, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Care to elaborate, provide examples...?
God said "My words shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31) and "thou shalt preserve them (God's words) from this generation for ever" (Psalm 12:7).


Verses that have been removed:

Matt 12:47, Matt 17:21, Matt 18:11, Matt 21:44, Matt 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Mark 16:9-20, Luke 17:36, Luke 22:43, Luke 22:44, Luke 23:17, Luke 24:12, Luke 24:40, John 5:4, John 7:53 - 8:11, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Rom. 16:24, 2 Cor. 13:14, James 1:8

Then there are the 300 verses that have been changed. (I doubt I've listed all 300 here...but this should suffice)

Luke 1:28Luke 2:14Luke 2:22Luke 2:33Luke 2:43Luke 4:4Luke 4:8Luke 4:18Luke 1:28Luke 2:14Luke 2:22Luke 2:33Luke 2:43Luke 4:4Luke 4:8Luke 4:18Luke 4:41Luke 6:48Luke 9:54Luke 9:55Luke 9:56Luke 9:57Luke 10:15Luke 11:2Luke 11:4Luke 11:29Luke 16:23Luke 17:36Luke 21:4Luke 21:8Luke 22:64Luke 23:17Luke 23:38Luke 23:42Luke 24:6Luke 24:49John 1:14, 18John 1:27John 3:13John 3:15John 3:16John 3:18John 4:24John 4:42John 5:3John 5:4John 5:16John 5:29John 6:47John 6:69John 7:53-8:11John 8;9John 8:47John 8:59John 9:4John 9:35John 11:41John 14:2John 14:16John 16:16John 17:12 Acts 1:3Acts 2:30Acts 2:31Acts 2:38Acts 4:27,30Acts 7:30Acts 7:37Acts 8:37Acts 9:5Acts 10:6Acts 15:11Acts 15:18Acts 15:34Acts 16:31Acts 17:16Acts 17:22Acts 17:22Acts 17:26Acts 17:29Acts 19:35Acts 20:21Acts 20:24Acts 20:25Acts 23:9Acts 24:7Acts 24:14Acts 24:15Acts 28:16Acts 28:29 Romans 1:3Romans 1:16Romans 1:18Romans 1:25Romans 1:29Romans 5:8Romans 6:8Romans 6:11Romans 8:1Romans 9:28Romans 10:15Romans 10:17Romans 11:6Romans 13:2Romans 13:9Romans 14:6Romans 14:10Romans 14:21Romans 14:23Romans 15:8Romans 15:19Romans 15:29Romans 16:18Romans 16:24 I Cor. 1:21I Cor. 1:22I Cor. 5:4I Cor. 5:7I Cor. 6:9I Cor. 6:20I Cor. 7:5I Cor. 7:39I Cor. 9:1I Cor. 9:27I Cor. 9:27I Cor. 10:28I Cor. 11:11I Cor. 11:24I Cor. 11:29I Cor. 11:29I Cor. 14:33I Cor. 15:47I Cor. 15:55I Cor. 16:22I Cor. 16:23 2 Cor. 2:102 Cor. 2:172 Cor.4:62 Cor. 4:102 Cor. 5:172 Cor. 5:182 Cor.10:52 Cor.11:62 Cor.11:31 Gal. 2:20Gal. 3:1Gal.3:17Gal. 4:7Gal. 5:4Gal. 6:15Gal. 6:17 Ephesians 1:6Ephesians 3:9Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 5:9Ephesians 5:30Philippians 2:6

etc., etc., etc.

Hana
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Whatsthepoint
02-09-2008, 12:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
God said "My words shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31) and "thou shalt preserve them (God's words) from this generation for ever" (Psalm 12:7).


Verses that have been removed:

Matt 12:47, Matt 17:21, Matt 18:11, Matt 21:44, Matt 23:14, Mark 7:16, Mark 9:44, Mark 9:46, Mark 11:26, Mark 15:28, Mark 16:9-20, Luke 17:36, Luke 22:43, Luke 22:44, Luke 23:17, Luke 24:12, Luke 24:40, John 5:4, John 7:53 - 8:11, Acts 8:37, Acts 15:34, Acts 24:7, Acts 28:29, Rom. 16:24, 2 Cor. 13:14, James 1:8

Then there are the 300 verses that have been changed. (I doubt I've listed all 300 here...but this should suffice)

Luke 1:28Luke 2:14Luke 2:22Luke 2:33Luke 2:43Luke 4:4Luke 4:8Luke 4:18Luke 1:28Luke 2:14Luke 2:22Luke 2:33Luke 2:43Luke 4:4Luke 4:8Luke 4:18Luke 4:41Luke 6:48Luke 9:54Luke 9:55Luke 9:56Luke 9:57Luke 10:15Luke 11:2Luke 11:4Luke 11:29Luke 16:23Luke 17:36Luke 21:4Luke 21:8Luke 22:64Luke 23:17Luke 23:38Luke 23:42Luke 24:6Luke 24:49John 1:14, 18John 1:27John 3:13John 3:15John 3:16John 3:18John 4:24John 4:42John 5:3John 5:4John 5:16John 5:29John 6:47John 6:69John 7:53-8:11John 8;9John 8:47John 8:59John 9:4John 9:35John 11:41John 14:2John 14:16John 16:16John 17:12 Acts 1:3Acts 2:30Acts 2:31Acts 2:38Acts 4:27,30Acts 7:30Acts 7:37Acts 8:37Acts 9:5Acts 10:6Acts 15:11Acts 15:18Acts 15:34Acts 16:31Acts 17:16Acts 17:22Acts 17:22Acts 17:26Acts 17:29Acts 19:35Acts 20:21Acts 20:24Acts 20:25Acts 23:9Acts 24:7Acts 24:14Acts 24:15Acts 28:16Acts 28:29 Romans 1:3Romans 1:16Romans 1:18Romans 1:25Romans 1:29Romans 5:8Romans 6:8Romans 6:11Romans 8:1Romans 9:28Romans 10:15Romans 10:17Romans 11:6Romans 13:2Romans 13:9Romans 14:6Romans 14:10Romans 14:21Romans 14:23Romans 15:8Romans 15:19Romans 15:29Romans 16:18Romans 16:24 I Cor. 1:21I Cor. 1:22I Cor. 5:4I Cor. 5:7I Cor. 6:9I Cor. 6:20I Cor. 7:5I Cor. 7:39I Cor. 9:1I Cor. 9:27I Cor. 9:27I Cor. 10:28I Cor. 11:11I Cor. 11:24I Cor. 11:29I Cor. 11:29I Cor. 14:33I Cor. 15:47I Cor. 15:55I Cor. 16:22I Cor. 16:23 2 Cor. 2:102 Cor. 2:172 Cor.4:62 Cor. 4:102 Cor. 5:172 Cor. 5:182 Cor.10:52 Cor.11:62 Cor.11:31 Gal. 2:20Gal. 3:1Gal.3:17Gal. 4:7Gal. 5:4Gal. 6:15Gal. 6:17 Ephesians 1:6Ephesians 3:9Ephesians 3:14Ephesians 5:9Ephesians 5:30Philippians 2:6

etc., etc., etc.

Hana
Do you have evidence all these verses have been removed/changed?
Which manuscripts do you use as a reference?
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*Hana*
02-09-2008, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Do you have evidence all these verses have been removed/changed?
Which manuscripts do you use as a reference?
^o)

Ummmm, you're on the net...look them up.
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Whatsthepoint
02-09-2008, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
^o)

Ummmm, you're on the net...look them up.
What? The manuscripts? there are plenty, the oldest are in greek however and I do not speak greek. I can do with the Latin ones though..
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Malaikah
02-12-2008, 10:51 AM
:sl:

I would like to point out something incredibly important.

The Quran refers to the books sent to previous Prophets, specifically the Torah (to the followers of Moses) and Injeel (to the follower of Jesus).

Contrary to popular belief, the bible (New Testament) is not the Injeel!

The NT is a collection of works written by many different men, none of it was written by God (some Christians believe it was inspired by God but that it was still authored by those men, not Jesus. Muslims reject that anyone other than a Prophet can claim to be inspired by God in such a way).

Therefore when the Quran says that the Injeel was corrupted there is no point talking about the corruption of the NT because the Quran is not referring to the NT.

That being said, it is still possible that parts of the Injeel were quoted in the Bible, however we do not know if this is the case or not.

As for the Torah, that is a different story because as far as I understand it is believed that the first for chapters (or books?) of the OT was actually written by God and given to Moses who passed it on to his followers. Whether that is the case or not, Allah knows best.

Hope that makes sense...
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Trumble
02-12-2008, 03:32 PM
I think it was believed that the Torah was authored by Moses, not God. I suppose that might include 'inspired' to some extent but it wasn't supposed to have been 'revealed' in the sense the Qur'an was (except for the Ten Commandments anyway). A large part of it is a history of Moses' life and times, so that would be a bit odd.

Thanks for the clarification regarding the Injeel. I'd thought of it a being the the gospels (as opposed to the NT as a whole), but that would seem to be incorrect. Do muslims consider the Injeel as being the teachings of Jesus (or revelations made to him by God), that were never recorded correctly or as a 'lost book' of some sort?
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*Hana*
02-12-2008, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What? The manuscripts? there are plenty, the oldest are in greek however and I do not speak greek. I can do with the Latin ones though..
I responded to this but all the posts are gone :muddlehea

grrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:
Reply

Walter
02-12-2008, 09:30 PM
Hi Everyone:

Perhaps we could deal with the issues in order.

I quoted 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Let us examine the verse in detail, and you can tell me where we differ.

O ye who believe! – He is speaking to Muslims.
Believe in Allah – Muslims are to believe in God
and His Messenger – Muslims are to believe Mohammed’s words
and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger – Muslims are to believe the Qur’an
and the scripture which He sent to those before (him) – Muslims are to believe the scripture sent to the Israelites and Christians
Any who denieth Allah – Any Muslim who denies God
His angels – God’s Angels
His Books – The Quran, Old Testament, and New Testament
His Messengers – That would include Moses, the Prophets, Jesus and Mohammed
and the Day of Judgment – The great reckoning.
hath gone far, far astray – is simply dead wrong.

I expect that you will have a problem with “His Books”. The Books are clearly defined. During Mohammeds time, it was well understood that the Old Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Israelites. It was also well understood that the New Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Christians.

It should be noted that the Old and New Testaments were compiled into Books over 200 years before Mohammed. The Bible is the most copied book, even during that time; however, despite the copying errors, the essential message remains. Mohammed confirmed seeing the scriptures and confirmed their validity despite the copying errors.

Regards,
Grenville
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*Hana*
02-12-2008, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Everyone:

Perhaps we could deal with the issues in order.

I quoted 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Let us examine the verse in detail, and you can tell me where we differ.

O ye who believe! – He is speaking to Muslims.
Believe in Allah – Muslims are to believe in God
and His Messenger – Muslims are to believe Mohammed’s words
and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger – Muslims are to believe the Qur’an
and the scripture which He sent to those before (him) – Muslims are to believe the scripture sent to the Israelites and Christians

To clarify...we believe in the ORIGINAL scripture sent before Him. The bible is NOT that scripture. Unless you know where the original injeel, Torah and Zuboor are???

Any who denieth Allah – Any Muslim who denies God
His angels – God’s Angels
His Books – The Quran, Old Testament, and New Testament

Wrong. The Old and New Testament has nothing to do with the Injeel. Jesus did not teach "old and new testament" That was a creation of man YEARS after Jesus' ministry.

His Messengers – That would include Moses, the Prophets, Jesus and Mohammed
and the Day of Judgment – The great reckoning.
hath gone far, far astray – is simply dead wrong.

I expect that you will have a problem with “His Books”. The Books are clearly defined. During Mohammeds time, it was well understood that the Old Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Israelites. It was also well understood that the New Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Christians.

Jesus did not teach HIS BOOKS or NEW TESTAMENT just as Moses didn't teach HIS BOOKS and OLD TESTAMENT. They taught scripture revealed to them by God. The stories were compiled into a book and was called the bible. Jesus didn't preach "the bible" because it didn't exist. Man wrote the stories, changed them, translated them, changed them some more, destroyed them, etc., etc. Jesus and Moses knew nothing of "the Bible" because it was created 400 years AFTER Jesus.

It should be noted that the Old and New Testaments were compiled into Books over 200 years before Mohammed. The Bible is the most copied book, even during that time; however, despite the copying errors, the essential message remains. Mohammed confirmed seeing the scriptures and confirmed their validity despite the copying errors.

They were compiled into books 400 years after Jesus, and 200 years before Muhammed, but were not translated into Arabic until long after Muhammed died. In around 867 CE to be exact. Many generations AFTER the Qur'an was first revealed to Muhammed, pbuh.

So, you making a statement that the essential message remains is simply your faith and not a basis in fact. You don't have the original scripture or text to go back to. Of all the manuscripts found, no two are exactly the same. Entire verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts. The word "begotten" is not found in the oldest manuscripts, and that my friend, changes A LOT!!

Now, where did Muhammed confirm seeing the scriptures and confirm their validity despite the copying errors?? We know He didn't read the scripture because it wasn't written in Arabic and even if it were....Muhammed, pbuh, was illiterate!

As for your accusation of the bible being copied. Had it been copied the errors would have also been copied. The Qur'an doesn't have errors!

Regards,
Grenville
Please do not continue with this discussion if you are only going to make statements without being able to back them up. As an example, where did you read that Muhammed, pbuh, saw and confirmed the scripture as it was written in His time.

Thanks!

Hana
Reply

Walter
02-13-2008, 12:41 AM
Hi Hana:

As requested, please note the following verses:

Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:90-91)


What we can see here is:
1. The Jews had copies of the scriptures.

2. Mohammed saw them.

3. Mohammed was upset that the Jews concealed much of the contents of these scriptures.

Therefore, Mohammed was not critical of the scriptures themselves, but the Jews who concealed much of what was written.

Perhaps you could explain what Books are referred to in 4:136 that Muslims are supposed to believe?

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

YusufNoor
02-13-2008, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Everyone:

Perhaps we could deal with the issues in order.

I quoted 4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
Let us examine the verse in detail, and you can tell me where we differ.

O ye who believe! – He is speaking to Muslims.
Believe in Allah – Muslims are to believe in God
and His Messenger – Muslims are to believe Mohammed’s words
and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger – Muslims are to believe the Qur’an
and the scripture which He sent to those before (him) – Muslims are to believe the scripture sent to the Israelites and Christians
Any who denieth Allah – Any Muslim who denies God
His angels – God’s Angels
His Books – The Quran, Old Testament, and New Testament
His Messengers – That would include Moses, the Prophets, Jesus and Mohammed
and the Day of Judgment – The great reckoning.
hath gone far, far astray – is simply dead wrong.

I expect that you will have a problem with “His Books”. The Books are clearly defined. During Mohammeds time, it was well understood that the Old Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Israelites. It was also well understood that the New Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Christians.

It should be noted that the Old and New Testaments were compiled into Books over 200 years before Mohammed. The Bible is the most copied book, even during that time; however, despite the copying errors, the essential message remains. Mohammed confirmed seeing the scriptures and confirmed their validity despite the copying errors.

Regards,
Grenville
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

EVERYBODY seems to think that Muslims are making "new claims" against "old books", let me quote the Prophet Jeremiah 8:8 [after Professor of Hebrew RE Friedman]:

How can you say, 'We are wise, And the [Torah] of the LORD is with us'?
But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.


so we raise NOT new claims, but simply follow the Prophets of Allah, Suhannahu Wa Ta' Aala!
:w:
Reply

Malaikah
02-13-2008, 02:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
His Books – The Quran, Old Testament, and New Testament
Hello.

Please refer to my post above. The books mentioned here are not the OT and NT. The OT and NT might contains traces of these books however they are not the books themselves!
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Malaikah
02-13-2008, 02:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Therefore, Mohammed was not critical of the scriptures themselves, but the Jews who concealed much of what was written.
I would disagree. You are assuming that they had the real, original 100% authentic copy of the scripture, while the verse does not imply that.

(which you have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much).) means, you made the Tawrah into separate sheets which you copied from the original and altered, changed and distorted as you wished. You then said, "this is from Allah,'' meaning it is in the revealed Book of Allah, when in fact, it is not from Allah.
^That is the explanation of the verse according to Tafsir (explanation) (of) Ibn Kathir.

Also note that you are assuming that the verse is referring to the Jews who lived in Arabia during the Prophets time- it might refer to them or it might refer to people who came before them. We shouldn't make either claim without knowledge.

Perhaps you could explain what Books are referred to in 4:136 that Muslims are supposed to believe?
The books that God revealed to His messengers such as the Injeel (which is not the bible) and the Torah (whether this is the same as what the Jews have today, I don't know).
Reply

*Hana*
02-13-2008, 12:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Hana:

As requested, please note the following verses:

Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations."

No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:90-91)


What we can see here is:
1. The Jews had copies of the scriptures.

2. Mohammed saw them.

WRONG: Read it again. It was NOT Muhammed that saw them at all. Muhammed is NOT penning these verses. The Qur'an is not like the bible where there are countless, unknown authors. Allah, swt, is the knower of ALL things and He knew exactly what happened to previous scripture.

3. Mohammed was upset that the Jews concealed much of the contents of these scriptures.

WRONG: Muhammed, pbuh, was NOT upset as this verse is NOT about what He did or did not see. Allah, swt, knew how the previous scriptures were made corrupt and He is telling us exactly what they did. Your lame attempt to say differently won't work here and a basic level reader can see this is NOT Muhammed, pbuh, speaking.

Therefore, Mohammed was not critical of the scriptures themselves, but the Jews who concealed much of what was written.

WRONG: Muhammed was not critical of anyone. Allah, swt, is telling us the deceit of the scribes that corrupted the text. So, in one sentence you are wrong in so many ways. 1. This is Allah, swt, speaking; 2. Allah, swt, is critical of the scribes that changed text; and 3. He is telling us the text is corrupt.

Perhaps you could explain what Books are referred to in 4:136 that Muslims are supposed to believe?

I don't know how many more times you have to be told before you understand. :hmm: You have been told so many times already. The following verse is referring to ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE REVEALED TO THE PREVIOUS PROPHETS. THAT SCRIPTURE IS NOT WHAT YOU HAVE TODAY. WHAT YOU HAVE TODAY IS THE CORRUPTED SCRIPTURE. THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE IS GONE, DESTROYED, LOST, RUINED. THE QUR'AN CORRECTS WHAT YOU HAVE AND GIVES YOU BACK THE ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE. (I thought saying it louder and bigger might make it more clear...it seems to work for languages.:okay:

4:136. O you who believe! Believe in Allâh, and His Messenger (Muhammad ), and the Book (the Qur'ân) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

Regards,
Grenville
So, Ummm, with all due respect, all we see here is that you are making things up because anyone can see clearly these verses do not say anything near what you want them to. The previous few and next few verses that you conveniently dismissed make it even more clear:

86. And Ismâ'il (Ishmael) and Al-Yas'â (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lout (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns) (of their times).

87. And also some of their fathers and their progeny and their brethren, We chose them, and We guided them to a Straight Path.

88. This is the Guidance of Allâh with which He guides whomsoever He will of His slaves. But if they had joined in worship others with Allâh, all that they used to do would have been of no benefit to them.

89. They are those whom We gave the Book, Al*Hukm (understanding of the religious laws), and Prophethood. But if these disbelieve therein (the Book, Al*Hukm and Prophethood), then, indeed We have entrusted it to a people (such as the Companions of Prophet Muhammad ) who are not disbelievers therein.

90. They are those whom Allâh had guided. So follow their guidance. Say: "No reward I ask of you for this (the Qur'ân). It is only a reminder for the 'Alamîn (mankind and jinns)."

91. They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters, etc.) did not estimate Allâh with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allâh send down to any human being (by inspiration)." Say (O Muhammad ): "Who then sent down the Book which Mûsa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much). And you (believers in Allâh and His Messenger Muhammad ), were taught (through the Qur'ân) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allâh (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubî, Vol.7, Page 37).

Allah, swt, (not Muhammed, pbuh), is very clear here when He said He sent down the book to Moses, (the scripture), and the Jews copied some of it correctly and hid some, altered, etc., some of it. Even still, Allah, swt, taught the Muhammed and His followers the correct and proper scripture through the revelation of the Qur'an. The Jews, pagans and idolators of Muhammed's time were following scripture that had been altered and through the Qur'an they had the opportunity to correct themselves. They were given the message through Muhammed, pbuh, and it was up to them to accept it.

92. And this (the Qur'ân) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (i.e. Makkah) and all those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in (the Qur'ân), and they are constant in guarding their Salât (prayers).

As I have already told you, but you don't seem to want to recognize, the revelations being confirmed are the ORIGINAL revelations of the Zuboor, Torah and Injeel (Gospel), which have long been destroyed! Long before the birth of Muhammed, pubh! The Qur'an CORRECTS and CONFIRMS those original revelations.

93. And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allâh, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allâh has revealed." And if you could but see when the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong*doers, etc.) are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allâh other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) with disrespect! "

Made even MORE clear in the verse for those that missed it in the previous verses, Allah, swt, is very specific when He tells us there are people who lied and said they received revelation from Him. These same people are the ones responsible for altering the original scriptures sent to previous prophets.

94. And truly you have come unto Us alone (without wealth, companions or anything else) as We created you the first time. You have left behind you all that which We had bestowed on you. We see not with you your intercessors whom you claimed to be partners with Allâh. Now all relations between you and them have been cut off, and all that you used to claim has vanished from you.

On the day of judgment you will stand alone with nothing. There will be no one standing with you and you will see for yourself Allah, swt, does not have and does not need partners. He is ONE. This is when you will realize your mistake. None of these "partners" will stand beside you.

Now, I'm going to jump ahead a few verses, but I encourage you to go read Chapter 6 in its ENTIRETY and not just what you want to make fit. These verses need no further explanation as I couldn't make them more clear:

100. Yet, they join the jinns as partners in worship with Allâh, though He has created them (the jinns), and they attribute falsely without knowledge sons and daughters to Him. Be He Glorified and Exalted above (all) that they attribute to Him.

101. He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything .

102. Such is Allâh, your Lord! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakîl (Trustee, Disposer of affairs, Guardian, etc.) over all things.

103. No vision can grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision. He is the Most Subtle and Courteous, Well*Acquainted with all things.

104. Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whosoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his ownself, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Muhammad ) am not a watcher over you.

105. Thus We explain variously the Verses so that they (the disbelievers) may say: "You have studied (the Books of the people of the Scripture and brought this Qur'ân from that)" and that We may make the matter clear for the people who have knowledge.

106. Follow what has been inspired to you (O Muhammad ) from your Lord, Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) and turn aside from Al-Mushrikûn.

107. Had Allâh willed, they would not have taken others besides Him in worship. And We have not made you a watcher over them nor are you set over them to dispose of their affairs.

108. And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allâh, lest they insult Allâh wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair*seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.

109. And they swear their strongest oaths by Allâh, that if there came to them a sign, they would surely believe therein. Say: "Signs are but with Allâh and what will make you (Muslims) perceive that (even) if it (the sign) came, they will not believe?"

110. And We shall turn their hearts and their eyes away (from guidance), as they refused to believe therein for the first time, and We shall leave them in their trespass to wander blindly.

111. And even if We had sent down unto them angels, and the dead had spoken unto them, and We had gathered together all things before their very eyes, they would not have believed, unless Allâh willed, but most of them behave ignorantly.

I know it's long, but you have to learn properly and not just a few verses at a time. If you're going to discuss text from the Qur'an, the least you can do is read all of it and give it the respect it deserves.

Peace,
Hana
Reply

Walter
02-15-2008, 02:05 AM
Hi Hana:

I really appreciate your patience as we debate this issue. I simply wish to know what is true. If what I believe conflicts with what is true, then obviously my belief must change.

Let us try to find some common understanding before we start diverging. I believe that we are mostly misunderstanding each other.

First let us address 6:90-91
No just estimate of Allah do they make when they say: "Nothing doth Allah send down to man (by way of revelation)" Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man: But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, while ye conceal much (of its contents): therein were ye taught that which ye knew not- neither ye nor your fathers." Say: "Allah (sent it down)": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6:90-91)

1. I agree with you that Mohammed was not the author. However, if we are going to be that semantically correct, then neither was God the author, but the angel. The reason why I noted that Mohammed saw and said these things is that the angel told him to. Hence my first assumption is: Mohammed obeyed the angel. Can we verify that assumption? No. However, it is a reasonable assumption. I hope that we can at least agree on that.

2. I never wrote that the sheets were original. I have consistently wrote that they were copies. I believe that we differ on the quality of the copying. I believe that the essential message remains in the copies, while you believe that it was corrupted beyond redemption. Let us therefore examine the evidence carefully.

Say: "Who then sent down the Book which Moses brought?- a light and guidance to man – I believe that we can agree that the original book was beneficial. Further, that this is one of the Books referred to in 4:136 which we shall address shortly.

But ye make it into (separate) sheets for show, – Here we can see that the Book was copied and displayed.

while ye conceal much (of its contents) – It clearly states that those who displayed the copies concealed much of the contents. Let me rephrase that. The contents were present; however, they were not taught but deliberately concealed.

Now this seems to be where we are in disagreement. You appear to have interpreted the verse to mean that the copying resulted in the Books being significantly altered and essentially useless. However, I can see no evidence in the verse that refers to the quality of the copying or alterations. Perhaps you can assist me here.

You provided 6:93 to support your assertion that the scripture was destroyed. Let us examine it.

93. And who can be more unjust than he who invents a lie against Allâh, or says: "I have received inspiration," whereas he is not inspired in anything; and who says, "I will reveal the like of what Allâh has revealed." And if you could but see when the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong*doers, etc.) are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): "Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allâh other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) with disrespect! "

You then gave the following interpretation:
“Made even MORE clear in the verse for those that missed it in the previous verses, Allah, swt, is very specific when He tells us there are people who lied and said they received revelation from Him. These same people are the ones responsible for altering the original scriptures sent to previous prophets.”

You have assumed that this verse refers to the accusation in verse 91. However, I must disagree with this assumption. Verse 93 clearly begins with the word “and” which suggests either a continuation of the previous accusation or the start of another accusation. It then continues with a completely separate accusation, that people invent lies against God.

Now let us return to 4:136
4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Let us agree that Mohammed was not a lunatic. He specifically states that Believers are to believe the Scripture sent to those before. Therefore, regardless of the quality of copying, Believers are to believe this scripture. If it were destroyed, then why would Mohammed ask people to do something that was obviously impossible? That is my point. I agree that the original manuscripts are unavailable and probably destroyed, but I believe that Mohammed was referring to the copies, including those referred to in 6:91.

Best regards,
Grenville
Reply

Malaikah
02-15-2008, 02:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Let us agree that Mohammed was not a lunatic. He specifically states that Believers are to believe the Scripture sent to those before. Therefore, regardless of the quality of copying, Believers are to believe this scripture. If it were destroyed, then why would Mohammed ask people to do something that was obviously impossible? That is my point. I agree that the original manuscripts are unavailable and probably destroyed, but I believe that Mohammed was referring to the copies, including those referred to in 6:91.
Well, firstly, God asked us to believe in it, not Muhammad pbuh. Secondly, we only have to believe that these books were revealed to the other Prophets and that they were from God and they contain the truth. We don't need to know what they say or read them or follow them.

Hope that makes sense!
Reply

MustafaMc
02-15-2008, 02:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Let us agree that Mohammed was not a lunatic. He specifically states that Believers are to believe the Scripture sent to those before. Therefore, regardless of the quality of copying, Believers are to believe this scripture. If it were destroyed, then why would Mohammed ask people to do something that was obviously impossible? That is my point. I agree that the original manuscripts are unavailable and probably destroyed, but I believe that Mohammed was referring to the copies, including those referred to in 6:91.
I assume that when you say, "Believers are to believe this scripture" that you mean we are to accept the Bible as the inerrant Word of God and as legitimate Holy scripture to guide our religous belief system and our lives. I don't know what your hidden agenda is with your persistent arguments that Muslims are to believe in the Bible, but it is doomed to failure. Your arguments have been aptly refuted above, yet you persist. It is a logical fallacy to say the the Quran says Muslims are to believe in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God when portions of the NT are in stark contradiction to statements in the Quran that are repeated loud and clear condemning as disbelievers those who say Jesus is the Son of God. Allah is not the "author of confusion" to say in the Quran that Jesus is not His "son", but simultaneously say we must believe the Bible that says Jesus is the Son of God. As has been repeated over and over and over again, we Muslims believe in the scripture that was given to Moses, David and Jesus, but those original scriptures have not been recorded in their entirety nor have they been accurately preserved. As you believe that Allah was referring to the corrupted Bible, so also I believe that He was referring to the original scriptures that we must believe that came down as guidance for mankind. Even the red letter quotes attributed to Jesus are not word-for-word preserved between the four gospels. It is next to impossible to know what Jesus really said.
Reply

*Hana*
02-15-2008, 03:54 AM
Grenville:

You are making your own interpretations and assumptions here. You have been told numerous times the previous scripture is the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURE SENT TO PREVIOUS PROPHETS AND THE QUR'AN CONFIRMS THAT SCRIPTURE. However, in order for you to make any half decent response, you MUST believe that the scripture is the corrupted scripture you have today. Twist, interpret, assume all you want, it will not and does not change the fact your assumption is WRONG. The Qur'an simply reiterates those previous ORIGINAL scriptures and removes the corruption.

You have yet to respond appropriately to anything brought up and I'm not going over the same issues again and again with you. Your interpretations and assumptions about Qur'anic text means nothing, quite frankly. You asked and were answered. You haven't brought up anything new and I'm not wasting my time beating a dead horse. Take the time to read the entire Surah and not just a few Ayats.

The word "AND" is the start of many, many Ayats, if this is the best you can do, it's time to seriously move on. Every ayat is a continuation of the one before it. That's how Surahs are formed. Just like every verse in the bible is a continuation of the one before it to form a chapter.

And, (see the use of the word), no, I do not have patience for this type of discussion. I know you will spend the next 10 pages insisting your interpretation of the Qur'anic text is correct while all 1.3 Billion Muslims are wrong all the while focusing on the word "and" starting an ayat. :hmm:

I don't have to find a common understanding with you regarding text in the Qur'an. My understanding agrees with Islamic teachings while yours agrees with yourself. What is your idea of a common understanding?? As long as I agree with your assumption of meaning?? Sorry, doesn't work that way, Grenville. Your understanding is WRONG and I feel I and others here have been very clear explaining why your interpretation is incorrect. The only thing left for you to do is to get a copy of the Meanings of the Holy Qur'an, with commentary. Yusuf Ali is a good one, and start reading.

Sorry, I just don't have patience or desire for this type of discussion because it goes nowhere. If you have sincere questions, ask them, but please don't argue and give your personal interpretation and claim it is factual, while claiming the explanation given is wrong, by YOUR iinterpretation.

Anyway, your questions have been answered appropriately and in detail. Accept the responses or reject them....doesn't make any difference to me. Allah, swt, guides whom He wills. If you would like clarification of other Qur'anic or Islamic text, please feel free to ask. Inshallah, there are many knowledgeable brothers and sisters here who will do their best to answer.

I pray Allah, swt, guides you to truth. Ameen

Peace,
Hana
Reply

Walter
02-15-2008, 03:18 PM
Hi Malaikah, MustafaMc, and Hana:

This is where we normally end this discussion. Whenever we get to this point, where we start to critically examine the verses, the response has ALWAYS been to just say that I am wrong and you are right and the discussion must end. The questions then remain unanswered.

Malaikah, your point is critical to this discussion. If the verse said to believe IN the scripture sent before, then it would be reasonable to interpret this as others have done here. We can reasonable assume that the scripture is not available, but we are to believe that it was given and that it was beneficial.

However, the verse does not say to “believe in”. Instead, it states that believers are to believe THE scripture. The ONLY way to believe THE scripture is to read it, or hear it recited. Therefore it had to be available during Mohammed’s time. God further clarifies this so that there is no doubt. Believers are not to deny His Books.

MustafaMc, we have been down this road several times. When I read the Qur’an, I read it to see what was in it, and not to see where it differed with the Bible. Having read it 5 times now, and having read the Bible over 20 times, I do not see the contradictions that you see.

I have repeatedly shown you in detail how the verses about Jesus’ crucifixion, the trinity, etc can be interpreted to be consistent with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an, or they can be interpreted to be in conflict with the Bible and recorded history. Yet you are willing to ignore the former and embrace the latter.

I believe that truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny. Christians should never choose Christian tradition over the truth in the Bible, and Muslims should never choose Islamic tradition over the truth in the Qur’an. Yet, we stubbornly hold on to our traditions rather than examine the truth.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him).

Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

I sincerely hope that someday you will read and come to believe the scripture which He sent to those before. If you would ask God to help you, you will find that they are not in conflict with the Qur’an as you continue to strongly assert.

Best regards,
Grenville
www.researching.wordpress.com
Reply

ummsara1108
02-15-2008, 04:04 PM
What we really need to focus on is the Laws of God/Allah. They are all the same in all religions...PERIOD

I see most people focus on stories, that were or were not made up, I mean it's nice to read stories, but seeing that none of us were born then means none of can say what is or isn't correct.

Let's face the facts, if God/Allah wanted religion to be simple, it would of been made that way and stayed that way.

I see it this way....

1st we have the Torah = Let's just say oringinal

2nd we have the Bible = OT barrowed from the Torah and NT added making the BIBLE

3rd we have the Koran = OT and NT barrowed from the Torah and Bible and added words from Muhhamad making the Koran

Is it so hard to believe that there may be another addition to Gods/Allahs words? Meaning Troah=Bible=Koran

I'm not a muslim, but I can surely see if it happened 1 time it can happen again...PERIOD

Peace and Blessings everyone..
Reply

Umar001
02-15-2008, 04:42 PM
In the Name of Allāh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Peace and Blessings be upon His worshipper and messenger Muhammad.

I had posted, which got erased, speaking about the fact that a word may change meaning to certain extents depending on who is using it and how it is used.

Example;

I believe in Jesus

If a Christian says the above then most of us would understand the individual to mean that he believes Jesus is God (generally) and the son of God and that the Bible is right.

Where as if we have the same words uttered by a Muslim the most of us would understand the individual to mean that he believes Jesus is a mighty Messenger of God and Prophet.

Same can be said of various phrases: Word of God, Spirit of God etc. I chose believe because it will come up in this discussion. So as outlined the word may have different connotations depending on the individual using it.

I had allowed this thread thinking it would have been a one on one with clarity, but it seems not to be heading that way.


format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Bassam:

OK. Let us concern ourselves with what the Qur’an teaches, and not what Islam teaches. The Qur’an states:

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Note that Muslims are to believe both the Qur’an and “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Do you agree that the “those before” refer to Israelites and Christians?

If so, then could the "His Books" include the Old Testament and the New Testament which include “the scripture which He sent to those before”.

Regards,
Grenville
I want to touch upon two points:

1. The verse, I have this translation:

O you who believe! Believe in Allāh, and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and the Book (the Qur'ān) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him), and whosoever disbelieves in Allāh, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

I want to point out differences, the translation used by you states: Any who denieth Allah, whilst the one I deploy has and whosoever disbelieves in Allāh, the arabic if I am not mistaken is Billah. I make a point of this since you state in a later post:

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
However, the verse does not say to “believe in”. Instead, it states that believers are to believe THE scripture....
Either way I would not see a problem. But believe in Allah and.... indicates to believe in those other things too.

Second point, you will have to provide evidence for the belief that this means the Old Testament and the New Testament.

In your tafsir of the Qur'an you write:

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Any who denieth Allah – Any Muslim who denies God
His angels – God’s Angels
His Books – The Quran, Old Testament, and New Testament
His Messengers – That would include Moses, the Prophets, Jesus and Mohammed
and the Day of Judgment – The great reckoning.
hath gone far, far astray – is simply dead wrong.
And seem to justify this by stating:

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
I expect that you will have a problem with “His Books”. The Books are clearly defined. During Mohammeds time, it was well understood that the Old Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Israelites. It was also well understood that the New Testament contained the Books that were sent to the Christians.
You have made a statement, that it was well understood.. and you know this how?

Also, the Qur'an does not speak of those books being inspired. Please show us evidence, the Qur'an mentions the Torah and Injeel. Not NT and OT if you believe it does then please show us the reason.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
It should be noted that the Old and New Testaments were compiled into Books over 200 years before Mohammed. The Bible is the most copied book, even during that time; however, despite the copying errors, the essential message remains. Mohammed confirmed seeing the scriptures and confirmed their validity despite the copying errors.
How do you know it does?

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
What we can see here is:
1. The Jews had copies of the scriptures.

2. Mohammed saw them.

3. Mohammed was upset that the Jews concealed much of the contents of these scriptures.
Please explain how you derived this from the verses?

Also, I have previously stated time and time again, we know for sure that the Qur'an states that the previous books were changed, the statements of Abdullah ibn Abbas 'disciple' are clear.

Any verses should be interpreted by that.
Reply

*Hana*
02-15-2008, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Malaikah, MustafaMc, and Hana:

This is where we normally end this discussion. Whenever we get to this point, where we start to critically examine the verses, the response has ALWAYS been to just say that I am wrong and you are right and the discussion must end. The questions then remain unanswered.

They were answered a million times in this thread. They just weren't the answers you wanted to hear. Not our problem, Grenville. The truth is truth and we can't change it to suit your needs.

Malaikah, your point is critical to this discussion. If the verse said to believe IN the scripture sent before, then it would be reasonable to interpret this as others have done here. We can reasonable assume that the scripture is not available, but we are to believe that it was given and that it was beneficial.

I told you, you are wrong and the verses you neglected to post, but I did, does say specifically the REVELATION sent before, NOT what you have now written and corrupt which the verses also say CLEARLY. Again, you choose not to see it...not our problem.

91. They (the Jews, Quraish pagans, idolaters, etc.) did not estimate Allâh with an estimation due to Him when they said: "Nothing did Allâh send down to any human being (by inspiration)." Say (O Muhammad ): "Who then sent down the Book which Mûsa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to mankind which you (the Jews) have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much). And you (believers in Allâh and His Messenger Muhammad ), were taught (through the Qur'ân) that which neither you nor your fathers knew." Say: "Allâh (sent it down)." Then leave them to play in their vain discussions. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubî, Vol.7, Page 37).

92. And this (the Qur'ân) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it, so that you may warn the Mother of Towns (i.e. Makkah) and all those around it. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in (the Qur'ân), and they are constant in guarding their Salât (prayers).

However, the verse does not say to “believe in”. Instead, it states that believers are to believe THE scripture. The ONLY way to believe THE scripture is to read it, or hear it recited. Therefore it had to be available during Mohammed’s time. God further clarifies this so that there is no doubt. Believers are not to deny His Books.

STILL WRONG AS PREVIOUSLY STATED. READ ABOVE. BETTER YET, READ THE ENTIRE SURAH BEFORE MAKING INACCURATE STATEMENTS.

MustafaMc, we have been down this road several times. When I read the Qur’an, I read it to see what was in it, and not to see where it differed with the Bible. Having read it 5 times now, and having read the Bible over 20 times, I do not see the contradictions that you see.

I have repeatedly shown you in detail how the verses about Jesus’ crucifixion, the trinity, etc can be interpreted to be consistent with the Bible, recorded history, and the rest of the Qur’an, or they can be interpreted to be in conflict with the Bible and recorded history. Yet you are willing to ignore the former and embrace the latter.

I can interpret anything to make it fit too, Grenville. However, what the bible says and what you say it says, are two totally different things. What you want to "prove" is based on nothing except blind faith. There are no proofs. Your salvation is based on the teachings of a self-appointed apostle who spent most of his life torturing and killing Christians and NEVER heard Jesus speak.

Give me one, non-Christian, historical account of the crucifixion that makes all the claims found in the bible....all the walking corpses, etc. There are many historians of the day that wrote of a man named Jesus, pbuh, but none talked about this little incident...not one!! How do you explain that, Grenville. Five hundred walking corpses would certainly be memorable, particularly in that time of history!

We ignore the former because it is illogical, irrational, senseless and man-made. It was never accepted by the true followers of Christ and was never made part of the bible until 300 years AFTER Jesus walked the earth. We embrace the latter because it is logical, was taught in the lifetime of Jesus and the other Prophets, and is confirmed in the Qur'an.

I believe that truth should be able to withstand rigorous scrutiny. Christians should never choose Christian tradition over the truth in the Bible, and Muslims should never choose Islamic tradition over the truth in the Qur’an. Yet, we stubbornly hold on to our traditions rather than examine the truth.

Grenville, what you don't understand is that you are not scrutinizing anything at all. Scrutinizing I can deal with, what you are doing is beating a dead horse. You just keep on the same thing over and over again even after you've been told the correct Islamic teaching. The correct teaching is NOT YOUR OPINION or INTERPRETATION. This is not scrutinizing, it is annoying and pointless which is why I won't play these typical, evangelical type games. We are not uneducated, impoverished Muslims that sometimes fall victim to this kind of dribble.

4:136 - O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him).

Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.


He sent to His chosen Prophets and Messengers. He didn't send revelation to every person on the planet. Not everyone is worthy of such an appointment. He chose Prophets and Messengers for that. So you are trying to twist the words of God to make them fit your ideal, which is one of the problems that caused the bible to be corrupted over time.

You are in denial and you have gone far astray, Grenville. Show me the books (scripture/revelation), sent to David, Moses or Jesus. Where are they Grenville? Do you think followers of Christ, 50 years after He left, had them? Do you think the followers of Moses at the time of Jesus had the original scripture sent to Him? NOOOO they didn't. So, all you have is lip service Grenville. Based on your interpretation God asks the impossible. How can WE read the scripture that doesn't exist because it was destroyed. It is referring to the original revelation presented to the respective Prophets who in turn taught their people. The people, over time altered text which is what necessitated the coming of Jesus, pbuh. Remember He didn't come to change the law or the teachings of the Prophets before Him....He came to CONFIRM THEM!!! Confirm what they were, NOT, what they turned into!! You accuse us of doing what you do, Grenville. These are exactly the foolish games we don't like to play.

I sincerely hope that someday you will read and come to believe the scripture which He sent to those before. If you would ask God to help you, you will find that they are not in conflict with the Qur’an as you continue to strongly assert.

We also sincerely hope you will use the mind God gave you to see the truth and ask Him to guide you to truth. We do believe in the scripture sent to the previous Prophets, the Bible is not that scripture, so you have been lead far astray, Grenville. If you ask God to guide you with all sincerity, He will guide you and you will see the truth and beauty of Islam, Inshallah. :)

Best regards,
Grenville
www.researching.wordpress.com

Peace,
Hana
Reply

Walter
02-15-2008, 11:01 PM
Hi Al Habeshi and Hana:

Allow me to carefully re-read the entire chapters over the weekend. However, just in case I return to find this thread closed, let me try to clarify something with Hana for she is clearly misunderstanding me.

Hana, you quoted: 6:92.
And this (the Qur'ân) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it …

That is my point Hana.

1. The Qur’an confirms what was sent before.

2. I have read copies of what was sent before (in the Bible) and I too can confirm that despite the copying errors, the Qur’an generally confirms what was sent before.

3. Your statement that you can interpret anything to make it fit is correct, but only by damaging the evidence. I have had several discussions over the past year on this Board on many contentious verses that appear to contradict (copies of) the scripture sent before. I have found that they can be interpreted to be in harmony with the Bible without damaging the integrity of the verse in the Qur’an. However, since that is in conflict with Islamic tradition, the debate ceases.

4. I can see your perspective. I have moved from the comfort of my perspective and have walked to where you are and can see what you see. You simply refuse to believe that I can see a similar thing when I move back to my position.

5. Since reading the Qur’an, I have found elements of Christian tradition to be in conflict with both the Qur’an and the Bible. Therefore it appears that the Qur’an is right and the Bible is right. However, it also appears that parts of the Christian tradition are wrong, and parts of Islamic tradition are also wrong.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Regards,
Grenville
www.researching.wordpress.com
Reply

*Hana*
02-16-2008, 12:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Al Habeshi and Hana:

Allow me to carefully re-read the entire chapters over the weekend. However, just in case I return to find this thread closed, let me try to clarify something with Hana for she is clearly misunderstanding me.

Nice to hear you are willing to do this.

Hana, you quoted: 6:92.
And this (the Qur'ân) is a blessed Book which We have sent down, confirming (the revelations) which came before it …

That is my point Hana.

1. The Qur’an confirms what was sent before.

Again....to the previous Prophets. Period!

2. I have read copies of what was sent before (in the Bible) and I too can confirm that despite the copying errors, the Qur’an generally confirms what was sent before.

No, Grenville, you haven't read what was sent before because it no longer exists. You've read what unknown authors have written long after Jesus, pbuh. Nowhere in the Bible is there anything about a trinity and we know this was never introduced into Christianity until 325 at the Council of Nicea. The Qur'an confirms what is accurate and corrects what was corrupted.

3. Your statement that you can interpret anything to make it fit is correct, but only by damaging the evidence. I have had several discussions over the past year on this Board on many contentious verses that appear to contradict (copies of) the scripture sent before. I have found that they can be interpreted to be in harmony with the Bible without damaging the integrity of the verse in the Qur’an. However, since that is in conflict with Islamic tradition, the debate ceases.

You cannot compare the Qur'an to the revelations sent to previous Prophets because they no longer exist. Your salvation is based on something NEVER taught by Jesus, pbuh, NEVER taught by the chosen disciples, NEVER learned by the true followers of Christ and is NEVER taught in Islam. I can give you a list a mile long where the Qur'an corrects your present bible, so of course, to you, it's called a contradiction. Original Sin....NEVER taught by Jesus or any of the previous Prophets. Blood Atonement, NEVER taught by Jesus or any of the previous Prophets, and NEVER taught in Islam.

In your mind, you seem to think we need the bible to affirm our belief....we don't. Our faith is totally independent of Jewish and Christian scriptures. The Qur'an stands alone on its own merits. The Qur'an confirms and corrects the original revelations and therefore the other, corrupted books, are not necessary. That can't be said for the books of the Bible, Grenville. So, you need to get it out of your head that we must have the Bible to be Muslims. No, this is a totally wrong understanding.

4. I can see your perspective. I have moved from the comfort of my perspective and have walked to where you are and can see what you see. You simply refuse to believe that I can see a similar thing when I move back to my position.

Grenville, I'm not asking you to embrace Islam because of a couple of verses. Not at all. There is nothing wrong with looking at the verses and using logic and an open mind to understand its meaning....even if you don't believe it is from God. You can continue to believe it was man-made...it's not a problem for me. I only ask that you accept this is our belief and there is no other interpretation for those verses. THIS IS THE MEANING. So, you cannot see a similar thing when you move back, because your understanding is completely wrong. I hope you can understand that I don't say this in a condescending manner. I say it, because it's true. You are trying to make this verse mean something it doesn't. It's that simple.

5. Since reading the Qur’an, I have found elements of Christian tradition to be in conflict with both the Qur’an and the Bible. Therefore it appears that the Qur’an is right and the Bible is right. However, it also appears that parts of the Christian tradition are wrong, and parts of Islamic tradition are also wrong.

Of course there will be similar elements of the three Abrahamic Faiths. But, one of the BIG differences is in Salvation. The first commandment says, (and we all agree here!): I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them. Grenville, neither Jews nor Muslims do this. Only Christians do this. Why? When did this start? It didn't start in the lifetime of Jesus, pbuh, we know this. It started with Paul and became part of Christian doctrine in 325. Long after Jesus left the earth.

Where, exactly, are Islamic traditions wrong?

Have a great weekend everyone.

You too!

Regards,
Grenville
www.researching.wordpress.com
Peace,
Hana
Reply

Umar001
02-16-2008, 05:46 PM
In the Name of Allāh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful
Peace and Blessings be upon His worshipper and messenger Muhammad.

Hi,

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
1. The Qur’an confirms what was sent before.
Now, what does confirm in this mean? In order to understand what type of confirmation is intended one needs to know the stance of the rest of the Message.

I can confirm something, by my confirmation could be that it was true but no longer is here or that it is true and is here.

Example,

I am writing confirming the letter send previously to your father.

Now, this confirmation of mine does not necessitate that the letter be available to the recipient of my letter. It could be and it could also not be.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
2. I have read copies of what was sent before (in the Bible) and I too can confirm that despite the copying errors, the Qur’an generally confirms what was sent before.
You assume you have read copies of what was referred to here as sent before. You are now assuming that what is claimed by some to be the Torah is truly that. Also you claim/assume that the Injeel spoken of is the/or is contained in the Four Gospel or NT. Those assumptions need to be substantiated.

format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
3. Your statement that you can interpret anything to make it fit is correct, but only by damaging the evidence. I have had several discussions over the past year on this Board on many contentious verses that appear to contradict (copies of) the scripture sent before. I have found that they can be interpreted to be in harmony with the Bible without damaging the integrity of the verse in the Qur’an. However, since that is in conflict with Islamic tradition, the debate ceases.

5. Since reading the Qur’an, I have found elements of Christian tradition to be in conflict with both the Qur’an and the Bible. Therefore it appears that the Qur’an is right and the Bible is right. However, it also appears that parts of the Christian tradition are wrong, and parts of Islamic tradition are also wrong.
You need to explain what you mean by tradition. Islamic tradition, meaning the Sunnah cannot be dropped unlike maybe the tradition spoken of in Christian.

Regards,

Eesa.
Reply

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