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kadafi
01-14-2005, 09:03 AM
300 Muslim Tsunami Orphans to be Christianized: Report


An Acehnese girl waits her family at a temporary school in a refugee camp in Banda Aceh. (Reuters)







CAIRO, January 13 (IslamOnline.net) - Giving credence to fears that Christain missionaries are exploiting the tsunami distaster to proselytize poor and needy Muslims, The Washington Post reported Thursday, January 13, that a US missionary group plans to christianize 300 Muslim children from the Indonesian province of Aceh.


While many religious charities have policies against proselytizing, Virginia-based WorldHelp is an exception raisning money among evangelical Christians by presenting the tsunami as a rare opportunity to make converts in hard-to-reach areas, said the American daily.
“Normally, Banda Aceh is closed to foreigners and closed to the gospel,” the missionary group said in a fund appeal on its Web site, according to the Post.
“But, because of this catastrophe, our partners there are earning the right to be heard and providing entrance for the gospel.”


The Post
stressed that the Web site was changed, and the appeal was removed after a reporter called to inquire about it.


At least 156,000 people have been confirmed killed, thousands missing and millions displaced in several Asian countries in tidal waves triggered by a 9.0 magnitude undersea earthquake - the world’s biggest in 40 years - which struck deep in the Indian Ocean off the west coast of Indonesia’s Sumatra Island.
Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country, lost 110,229 people to the killer sea surges.
The Indonesian government estimated that 35,000 children have been made homeless, orphaned or separated from their parents in Aceh, where Muslims make up 98 percent of the population.


Christianize


In its fund-raising appeal, WorldHelp said it was working with Indonesian Christians who want to “plant Christian principles as early as possible” in the 300 Muslim children, all under 12.
Rev. Vernon Brewer, president of WorldHelp in Forest, Va., said they raised about 70,000 dollars and were seeking an additional 350,000 dollars to build the Christian orphanage.
John Budd, UNICEF Indonesia Communication Officer, said last week that UNICEF's Malaysian office had received an SMS advertising 300 orphans from Aceh aged between three and ten who could be bought.
“It's chilling…What this indicates is that they have got children or they have a network where they can identify a child and take them,” he said.
Also in reaction to the increasing missionary work, an anonymous electronic text message spread through Indonesia this week.
“Please ask among friends who would like to adopt orphans from Aceh. 300 orphans coming soon. Need Muslim homes. Christian missionaries want them. Pls help!” it read.


Immediately after the tidal waves devastated several countries, a number of Christian missionary groups rushed to the affected areas to offer not only relief aid, but more importantly spiritual counseling .




Gospel for Asia, a group seeking to train and send 100,000 native missionaries into the most unreached areas of Asia, was working around the clock to bring food, clean water, medicines, clothing, shelter, and spiritual counseling “in the name of Jesus” to those who lost everything in the killer tidal waves.




Backlash




Acehnese children reach for pencils at a school in a makeshift refugee camp in Banda Aceh. (Reuters)





Brewer, a Baptist minister, claimed that the Indonesian government gave permission for the orphans to be flown to Jakarta and was aware that they would be raised as Christians.
Indonesian Vice President Yusuf Kalla announced last week a ban on adoption amid alarming reports about human traffickers spiriting children out of Aceh.
He said the children would be placed in orphanages run by the government, Islamic foundations or Muslim boarding schools.
The government also said that children under the age of 16 would not be allowed to leave Aceh without their parents.
Rev. Arthur Keys, president of International Relief and Development in Arlington, Va., feared overt evangelizing could produce a backlash.
“I think there's a danger that all international groups could be tarnished by this,” said Keys, an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ.
“I think we have to go out of our way to assure people that we're there to help, period.”
Indonesia asked all foreign troops to leave the country by March 26, a day after the army imposed sweeping restrictions on foreign aid workers in Aceh amid reports that some evangelical groups are mixing Christian missionary work with humanitarian aid.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle05.shtml
---------------------------------------------------
Another deceiveful tactic of the missionaries exploited.
Reply

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Dore
01-14-2005, 06:44 PM
Poor kids. May allah swt protect these little innocent kids insha allah. Its so hard for them to differentiate what these socalled helpers want. Similar exploits have been proven succesful in several poor countries.
Reply

Uma Rayanah
01-14-2005, 07:48 PM
:sl:

Inaa iilahii waa inaa iilah rajiuun....


format_quote Originally Posted by Dore
Poor kids. May allah swt protect these little innocent kids insha allah. Its so hard for them to differentiate what these socalled helpers want. Similar exploits have been proven succesful in several poor countries.

Ameen,,,
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 09:00 PM
A Christian work is a perfect work.
The Truth.
Reply

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Umar001
07-01-2006, 09:05 PM
INteresting.
Get them while they young.

Whomsoever Allah guides none can misguide and whosoever Allah misguides noone can guide.

Allahu Akbar!!
Takbeer.
Allahu Akbar!!
Reply

Fishman
07-01-2006, 09:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NEM
A Christian work is a perfect work.
The Truth.
:sl:
So you really advocate forcing children to change their religion?
:w:
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
So you really advocate forcing children to change their religion?
:w:
No.
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
INteresting.
Get them while they young.

Whomsoever Allah guides none can misguide and whosoever Allah misguides noone can guide.

Allahu Akbar!!
Takbeer.
Allahu Akbar!!
I started in OLD.
I am younger Today than I was before being reborn throught the gracious spirit of the son of the Almighty Father of whom I Love.
Reply

Bittersteel
07-01-2006, 09:11 PM
Kadafi the article is old.but its important.

hehe I find the Christians funny.
Reply

Fishman
07-01-2006, 09:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NEM
No.
:sl:
But you said that a Christian work is a perfect work. Doesn't that mean that forcing orphan children to convert is a perfect work (why do my words line up like that so often?)?

Islam also values missionary work (dawah), but 'there is no compulsion in religion', which means that converting people without giving them a choice is wrong. Only Allah can do that.
:w:
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
Kadafi the article is old.but its important.

hehe I find the Christians funny.
Ah! we have been seen to be together as one ...
May we be made richer through these kindest of understandings.
Reply

afriend
07-01-2006, 09:21 PM
Yes! There is no compulsion in our faith, Christians, as they have no power of spiritually, they force them into their religion, we cannot blame these children, they are doing this out of desperation, when they are older they will come back to the straight path inshallah! :)
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NEM
07-01-2006, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
But you said that a Christian work is a perfect work. Doesn't that mean that forcing orphan children to convert is a perfect work (why do my words line up like that so often?)?

Islam also values missionary work (dawah), but 'there is no compulsion in religion', which means that converting people without giving them a choice is wrong. Only Allah can do that.
:w:
A Christian hand will offer perfect healing on the authority of the Almighty Father through guidance of his beloved son ~ another soul has the authority to reach forth to hold that hand independent of all inaction of the exercise of anothers prayerlessness way that would only sustain yet another act of falling behind along the path towards a table of abundance set for every entire family of loving creature before heavens thronekeepers.
Reply

Woodrow
07-01-2006, 09:32 PM
Another way of looking at this.

Isn't it wonderfull that Allah(swt) is giving these children the opportunity to eventually return to Islam out of pure love and understanding, not just as a birthright. they are given the chance for a great reward as compensation for what they lost. Some if not all of them will return and could very well be the tools to streingthen the Ummah,
Reply

ManchesterFolk
07-01-2006, 09:35 PM
Be honest with yourselves guys. Is Islam any less guilty when it comes to converting people?
Reply

Umar001
07-01-2006, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NEM
I started in OLD.
I am younger Today than I was before being reborn throught the gracious spirit of the son of the Almighty Father of whom I Love.
Hmm, I don't know what that had to do with my post.

but my fellow son of Adam, I am glad you feel you are younger than before having accepted the gift of The Father his servant Jesus as your saviour.

I am also I guess glad that at least you feel happy, and that you love the Almighty Father.

I hope you keep loving Him.

Peace
Reply

Fishman
07-01-2006, 09:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Be honest with yourselves guys. Is Islam any less guilty when it comes to converting people?
:sl:
I know (and appreciate) that Muslims do their bit to spread the Word of Allah. But I don't know many incidences of Muslims forcing their religion on children.
:w:
Reply

Woodrow
07-01-2006, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Be honest with yourselves guys. Is Islam any less guilty when it comes to converting people?
Speaking for myself. I never had even one Muslim ever ask me to revert or to even encourage me to revert, prior to my reverting.
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Yes! There is no compulsion in our faith, Christians, as they have no power of spiritually, they force them into their religion, we cannot blame these children, they are doing this out of desperation, when they are older they will come back to the straight path inshallah! :)
Where these children ~ go' now unto then ~ It is only one hope that can be shared at this moment' ... and it is in that they are wise enough to believe in goodly ways towards all Creatures even as Man is the same in his Own respects towards himself... So that they might even meet again in Glory purposed to relive the same way's as have ever been perfected since the beginning of our origins together in this world.
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afriend
07-01-2006, 09:53 PM
Is it?

Well, whoever forces one to revert to Islam, that is not Islam.

When Jerusalem was captured, nobody was forced to become muslims.

Allah also states in the Quraan:

"There is no compulsion in religion" 2:256
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Is it?

Well, whoever forces one to revert to Islam, that is not Islam.

When Jerusalem was captured, nobody was forced to become muslims.

Allah also states in the Quraan:

"There is no compulsion in religion" 2:256
In acts of "True Freedom" there is "no act" of compulsion ~ Only a perfect
belief in following the right way accordin to the Almighty Man who is a blessed Father to all of His own faithfully beloved Children.
Reply

afriend
07-01-2006, 10:03 PM
He is not our father!

Come on, be rational.......How can you call him father?
Reply

Umar001
07-01-2006, 10:10 PM
I dont get it, whos forcing the children?? i mean the children are choosin right?
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
He is not our father!

Come on, be rational.......How can you call him father?
Redeemed Family Heirachy lesson:

The Almighty Father he Created this Idea that ~
His Son would be accepted as the Final sacrifice as was foretold for generations beforehand.
Those who are swift enough to grasp the Truth - get more blessings than the rest in the way of uninteruptible understandings.
We who have accepted His Son in the way of His Father - Now become
faithfully reedemed Brothers and Sisters reedemed of the Almighty Father.

We Inherit all along with his Son at the end of the way of the unbelieving world. Just after that - His Father recreates the Earth as it was In the Beginning.
Minus the Unbelievers of his Son who was living through his own sanctified mission for his Father.
Praise his Father in the Highest. What a family! Perfect Judgement of the Perfect Man. I will not be a woman about this Truth - and not to any Loving Brother or Sister.
Essentially - one who will not trust in the Son of the Father is without true Brothers and Sisters according to his Father.

In a nutshell...
Reply

Fishman
07-01-2006, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
I dont get it, whos forcing the children?? i mean the children are choosin right?
:sl:
The children aren't choosing.
:w:
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah
I dont get it, whos forcing the children?? i mean the children are choosin right?
In this day!
Almighty Man does not force a single soul backwards.
Only a spiritual angel of unholyness would attempt such a thing.
In any event ~ you are promised everthing in perfect order when you follow Almighty Man on the remainding part of his mission on Earth - No matter what an unholy angel puts before you in your way to freedom of purpose with your Holy family.

I gotta Love this path were are on or I'd might fall off of a cliff without a hope of Heaven to guide me to a Peaceful rest at the end of my destined path to fulfillment
Reply

afriend
07-01-2006, 10:29 PM
Are you a priest?

You sound very knowledgeable in the field of christianity.
Reply

NEM
07-01-2006, 10:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Iqram
Are you a priest?

You sound very knowledgeable in the field of christianity.
No.
Redeemed Brother of His Holy family is what ~ I Am.
Reply

snakelegs
07-01-2006, 10:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Speaking for myself. I never had even one Muslim ever ask me to revert or to even encourage me to revert, prior to my reverting.
nope - me either. i've never had a muslim come to my door and try to put their religion in my face.
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afriend
07-01-2006, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
nope - me either. i've never had a muslim come to my door and try to put their religion in my face.
lol.....Good point ;D
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MRR
07-01-2006, 11:48 PM
I don't see the problem. The missionaries are giving food, clothing, and spiritual counselling. Would you all prefer that the people were left to starve? Better to starve than be helped by a christian? I know, I know, someone here is going to say "they are forcing the religion on them in exchange for food", but clearly the article does not say that. It says they are offering the counselling, not forcing it.
As far as the children go, they are being given the chance at a home, albeit a christian home. Would it be better to remain orphans? Better an orphan than go to a christian home?
Personally, I think it is good that they get to go to a home no matter if christian, muslim, buddist, hindu or athiest. At least they get a chance in life.

Get them while they young.
Muslims don't do this? You mean you don't raise your children in islam? So no children are in mosques? You wait until they are adults and then introduce them to islam?

Poor kids. May allah swt protect these little innocent kids insha allah. Its so hard for them to differentiate what these socalled helpers want. Similar exploits have been proven succesful in several poor countries.
Where are the muslim socalled helpers?

If muslims are so concerned where are the muslim aid groups?
Reply

nimrod
07-02-2006, 01:29 AM
Iqram, I will not respond to this “Well, whoever forces one to revert to Islam, that is not Islam” other than to say, you are not being truthful.

What is Islam’s prescribed punishment for those who abandon Islam? To be given the choice of death or reversion is about as forceful as it gets.

That is what surprised me so much when I read Woodrow’s reply “Speaking for myself. I never had even one Muslim ever ask me to revert or to even encourage me to revert, prior to my reverting”. Surely those Muslims weren’t practicing true Islam.

The truth is what it is. Anything less than that, it is just flapping your gums.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

nimrod
07-02-2006, 01:55 AM
KadafiAnother deceiveful tactic of the missionaries exploited”.

I assume that you mean “deceitful” or maybe you mean “deceptive”?

What I find deceitful, and deceptive, is the linking of this Christian group to “human traffickers” and all the bad things that name implies.

The web-site you cited is so deceitful that they committed the link a second time, just in case the slow folks didn’t make the connection on the first page.

Second page

http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle04.shtml

Gospel for Asia, a group seeking to train and send 100,000 native missionaries into the most unreached areas of Asia, was among the first on the scene of the tsunami disaster in India and Sri Lanka.
According to its Web site, GFA’s volunteers are working around the clock to bring food, clean water, medicines, clothing, shelter, and spiritual counseling “in the name of Jesus” to those who lost everything in the killer tidal waves.
“People's spiritual needs must be met as well. That's why GFA takes the dual approach of physical relief and spiritual sharing. It is the only way to provide true hope to those who have lost so much,” said GFA President K.P. Yohannan.
GFA deployed at three different camps in Tamil Nadu, the second most affected place in India, more than 60 counselors who are “comforting, praying for and offering the hope found in Jesus to the tsunami victims.


Yet Islamonline manages to link the group to:

Trafficking
In another related development, the UN said it had received reports of adults posing as foster parents and children being shipped from Indonesia to Malaysia for sale, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).


If anyone is being deceitful, it seems that it is Islamonline.

In my neck of the woods, we call what www.Islamonline.net did smear tactics

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Bittersteel
07-02-2006, 07:19 AM
Christians are well kind of desperate.Number of atheists have grown in Christian countries and yes they need these victims of war and earthquakes and other natural disasters.
Reply

Wahid
07-02-2006, 07:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Iqram, I will not respond to this “Well, whoever forces one to revert to Islam, that is not Islam” other than to say, you are not being truthful.

What is Islam’s prescribed punishment for those who abandon Islam? To be given the choice of death or reversion is about as forceful as it gets.

That is what surprised me so much when I read Woodrow’s reply “Speaking for myself. I never had even one Muslim ever ask me to revert or to even encourage me to revert, prior to my reverting”. Surely those Muslims weren’t practicing true Islam.

The truth is what it is. Anything less than that, it is just flapping your gums.

Thanks
Nimrod

What are you talking about? in Islam there is no compulsion in religion which means no one can force you to become Muslim and if they do its anti Islamic. however what i think u meant was a Muslim LEAVING Islam after becoming Muslim and after than declaring this to public.. On that case only a proper Islamic state can prosecute that person and no one else!!(and there is no Islamic state in western countries)
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Wahid
07-02-2006, 07:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MRR

Muslims don't do this? You mean you don't raise your children in islam? So no children are in mosques? You wait until they are adults and then introduce them to islam?
No, Muslims don’t force OTHERS children to Islam!! That’s the difference here. And Muslims have every right to bring up their children as Muslim, after they have grown up they can make their choice themselves but as children parents have responsibility to bring them up the way they think is best for them (common sense...)
Where are the muslim socalled helpers?
they are there and infact doing majorty of the help, but so are these chiristain groups, the government should ban them if they do this kind of stuff
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Quruxbadaan
07-02-2006, 07:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NEM
A Christian work is a perfect work.
The Truth.

now that just doesnt make any sense at all whatso ever
Reply

Quruxbadaan
07-02-2006, 07:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NEM
I started in OLD.
I am younger Today than I was before being reborn throught the gracious spirit of the son of the Almighty Father of whom I Love.
Okay honestly you make no sense AT ALL!!!
Reply

Quruxbadaan
07-02-2006, 07:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Be honest with yourselves guys. Is Islam any less guilty when it comes to converting people?

People come to islam for their own reasons nobody is forced
islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today and yet the muslims are the weekest people in the world being attacked left and right having their homes taken from them and so on
We just present to you the truth and you decide what you want to do with it(Actually Allah most high chooses if he wants to bless you with accepting the truth)

so actually yes islam is very differnt because muslims dont convert people
they dont say hey lil hungry boy if you want this peice of bread you have to be muslim
like some missionaries do in most poor countries
altho i have to say that the muslims are not nearly as active as the cristian missonaries which is sad to me

Peace
Reply

MRR
07-02-2006, 07:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Vahid
No, Muslims don’t force OTHERS children to Islam!! That’s the difference here. And Muslims have every right to bring up their children as Muslim, after they have grown up they can make their choice themselves but as children parents have responsibility to bring them up the way they think is best for them (common sense...)

they are there and infact doing majorty of the help, but so are these chiristain groups, the government should ban them if they do this kind of stuff
Hi Vahid,
after they have grown up they can make their choice themselves
Well actually, depending on where they live, when they grow up if they decide to leave islam they could be put to death. Elsewhere they at least would suffer being disowned from the family. Not really much choice. Raised as muslim, grow up, can't leave islam. No choice.

they are there and infact doing majorty of the help
Can you provide evidence of this please?
As far as the accusations go, the article is from islamonline. So it is an unreliable source when it comes to views on christianity, and christian work, as it is quite biased against christians.
Here is a scenario. "Family is starving. Christian aid worker provides food and clothing. Talks with family about christ after food is distributed. Family has choice to listen or not. They will not be sent away if they don't listen. Either way islamonline uses words like "exploit" to describe what happened." Biased.
Please answer my question regarding evidence in this post, and please have the courage to answer all the questions in my previous post, not just pick the ones that are easy for you to answer. Two other important questions from that post were,
Would you all prefer that the people were left to starve?
and

they are being given the chance at a home, albeit a christian home. Would it be better to remain orphans? Better an orphan than go to a christian home?
.
Reply

MRR
07-02-2006, 08:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Quruxbadaan
so actually yes islam is very differnt because muslims dont convert people
they dont say hey lil hungry boy if you want this peice of bread you have to be muslim
like some missionaries do in most poor countries
altho i have to say that the muslims are not nearly as active as the cristian missonaries which is sad to me

Peace
There is no proof of this, muslims say it all the time but never have proof.
Reply

Wahid
07-02-2006, 08:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MRR
Hi Vahid,
Well actually, depending on where they live, when they grow up if they decide to leave islam they could be put to death. Elsewhere they at least would suffer being disowned from the family. Not really much choice. Raised as muslim, grow up, can't leave islam. No choice.
in non muslim countries they are free to do as they wish, what their parents dose is their own choice, some parents disown their kids after they become Muslims too. in a islamic state however it is a crime to change religion from Islam AND declare it to cause trouble
There are threads in refutation section that deal with this in ALOT more detail so refer to them
Refer here http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html

Can you provide evidence of this please?
Here is one stating different charities helping out. islamic groups are part of it but it doesn’t list the contribution amounts
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...ic/4131881.stm
However in that time after the tsunami BBC news was reporting on how Islamists (as they like to call them) was doing the majority of help and it wasn’t sitting well with them
As far as the accusations go, the article is from islamonline. So it is an unreliable source when it comes to views on christianity, and christian work, as it is quite biased against christians.
they quote witnesses and government officials, and i disagree i think they are reliable in their sources however the language is religiously based obviously
Reply

j4763
07-02-2006, 08:37 AM
I would imagine a child born into a Muslim family as hardly any choice of choosing his/her religion, as said above when they grow up if they did decide to leave Islam they have a very good chance of being disowned or worse.
I would also guess that the children born into any faith have that faith drummed into there head so much and grow up pretty closed minded, and fearful of there “god”.

I would love a world where no one (even from birth) was forced into a religion and given the choice of what to believe in when older enough to think for him/herself.

As far as these orphans are concerned I’m glad there getting some sort of help even it is in exchange for Christian love. It seems Christians are the only group who are actively helping others from outside there faith.
Reply

MRR
07-02-2006, 08:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by j4763
It seems Christians are the only group who are actively helping others from outside there faith.
This is an important point. It seems that christians are being persecuted for helping those that are not christian. Is it wrong to help those that are not of the same faith. If they went there and set up aid stations and said "only christians", what would some of you say then? It is like they can't win. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
Anyway, I have a couple of christian friends that spent time helping in aid groups in other countries. They say these allegations are rediculous. They help every person that needs help, and turn noone away. Muslim or christian.
Reply

glo
07-02-2006, 08:53 AM
Thanks you for this article.
Your comments on it have been very interesting.

I am trying to unpick to differences/similarities between Islam and Christianity in terms of spreading the faith.
Like snakelegs, I have never had any Muslims come to my door to convert me ... but then I have never had any Christians do that either. I do get people trying to sell double glazing or feather dusters for charity ... :rollseyes

In both, Muslims and Christians alike, I detect a desire to talk about and share their faith. Would you agree?
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?
I would even go further and say, that Islam and Christianity give us a certain responsibility to share our faith, so that non-believers may see the truth for themselves and follow the right path. Would you agree?

Where, then, do we draw the line? :?

Most Christian aid groups I know have strict policies on evangelising (largely perhaps, because they are monitored by secular organisations :giggling: ).

I am trying to get a grasp of how Muslim aid groups would deal with a situation of orphaned (non-Muslim) children.
Let's assume a Muslim charity is working in a non-Muslim country where there are a large number of orphans.
What to do with them?
Make sure they are raised in the faith they are accustomed to? (Despite your own misgivings that this is the wrong belief?)
Make sure they are raised in the Muslim faith? (Which you believe is the right one?)
Not get involved with non-believers?


On a slightly different level, how do you feel about this situation:
The church I am involved in, runs a children's group once a week (ages 7 -14) The area I live in is urban, and fairly poor, so having activities for children is always welcome.
The group involves plenty of fun and activites, some sweets (so it's highly attractive to the children) ... and some quiet learning about Jesus' life and Christian values.
Before children join the group, it is made very clear to the parents that it is run by a church, based on Christian values, and will include some Christian teachings. Parents have to give their consent before children can join. A sheet with a Bible verse goes home every week, so parents are aware of what is going on at any time. Many non-Christian children - including Muslims - come.

What do you think?
Is our church right to do this?
Are we 'exploiting' the need of the community for children's activities to spread our faith?
Should such groups be run by non-religious organisations only?
Should the local mosque offer a similar group?


I let you ponder ... ;D

Peace.
Reply

sonz
07-02-2006, 09:01 AM
salama

chk this out

Manufacturing Kufr

A Guide To Missionary Tactics

The Stealth Crusade

Conversion To Christianity: A Missionary Deception

Christian Missionaries Sweeping the Islamic World

Outsourcing religion, on a wing and a prayer

Missionary Christianity - A Muslim's Analysis

and also this http://www.inminds.co.uk/tsunami.html
Reply

glo
07-02-2006, 09:10 AM
Thank you, sonz

Are these links in response to my previous post? If so, I have to tell you that I don't have the time to follow all these links.
I also very much enjoy and learn from direct human exchange of views.
Can you share you own views with me?

Peace.
Reply

nimrod
07-02-2006, 02:13 PM
Vahid, when Iqram used the word “revert” I assumed he was talking about someone rejoining the Muslim faith.

Well, whoever forces one to revert to Islam, that is not Islam”.

What did you think he meant when he used the word “revert”?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Fishman
07-02-2006, 02:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Vahid, when Iqram used the word “revert” I assumed he was talking about someone rejoining the Muslim faith.

Well, whoever forces one to revert to Islam, that is not Islam”.

What did you think he meant when he used the word “revert”?

Thanks
Nimrod
:sl:
Muslims refer to conversion as reversion, because everybody is born Muslim.
:w:
Reply

nimrod
07-02-2006, 02:47 PM
Ahh, I see.

I was un-aware of that, thanks for the heads-up.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Pk_#2
07-02-2006, 02:51 PM
AsalamuAlaykyum,

jazakhala for post!

That's sad and mean though :'(

Ameen to the du'as

WalaykumSalaam.
Reply

Sis_ReNa
07-02-2006, 02:52 PM
Salam walakum wa rahamtuAllah wa barakatoh .
i wish i could take them All in.. :(
Reply

bandoo
07-02-2006, 03:08 PM
Dear Nem!

What you have written is plainly beyond the understanding of a simple and truthful soul like me! It is all blah...blah...blah... All hollow words and no substance. The poor Jesus could not save himself from being hanged from the tree (as claimed in one of the four gospels) so how could he save us from the clutches of any tyrany.

The Christian missionaries everywhere are purchasing the religions of poor people of other religions in exchange of money, jobs, medical aid, etc That is the truth. They are making a mockery of humanity. Interestingly, the various Christian sects (which hate each other) are converting Christians from one sect to another sect also. When the Pentacostals converted the Roman Catholic nation of Guatemala into a Pentacostal Christian nation the Pope was livid with anger and cursed these fellow Christians as Wolves in the white clothes. He of course forgot how the Catholic Church itself has committed genocide of innocent native Red Indians completely wiping them out of this world.

Bandoo
Reply

HeiGou
07-02-2006, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by bandoo
The Christian missionaries everywhere are purchasing the religions of poor people of other religions in exchange of money, jobs, medical aid, etc That is the truth.
Really? What is the evidence? And why aren't you condemning Muslims for doing the same? The Malaysians will pay Muslim men if they marry Orang Asli women and convert them to Islam. Even give them housing, an allowance and a car. Care to condemn that?

They are making a mockery of humanity. Interestingly, the various Christian sects (which hate each other) are converting Christians from one sect to another sect also. When the Pentacostals converted the Roman Catholic nation of Guatemala into a Pentacostal Christian nation the Pope was livid with anger and cursed these fellow Christians as Wolves in the white clothes. He of course forgot how the Catholic Church itself has committed genocide of innocent native Red Indians completely wiping them out of this world.
What nonsense is this? Where is the evidence of the Catholic Church ever committing genocide against innocent Native Americans? And again, why pick on the Catholics - where are the indigenous peoples of Pakistan? Where are the people who lived in Baluchistan before the Balochs?
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-02-2006, 03:50 PM
:salamext:

Im sure this happens to tons of young muslims. But 300 is quite a big batch.
Woulda been nice to raise them under islamic principles as they are clearly the highest and best but Allahu Allam, non can misguide those whom Allah guides!

:wasalamex
Reply

Sis_ReNa
07-02-2006, 03:56 PM
well they can all come to my home LOL i will raise them to be muslim, we need to build a islamic community here . INSHALLAH
Reply

Isaac
07-02-2006, 04:05 PM
Salam. You know what brothers and sisters i hate to sound so blunt, but its our own fault. The christian groups are doing what Muhammed pbuh taught us and urged us to do. But apart from a few we dont seem to be doing so. we are a very big muslim ummah yet we cant even help and feed the poor, take in the orpans, help the widowed. I swear us muslims have to unite. this is the only way we can show our mercy to the rest of the world. if we all united and had an islamic state inshallah there would be none of this happening. but we cant see face to face and it true and shameful that we have enmity in regards to colour and background.

I know its probably not so easy and straightforward but the muslim ummah should have one big umbrella kind of humantitarian organisation, instead of 100s of difdferent ones. they should come together and share their ideas, on how to help the poor and bring all the projects together. if we cant unite on aspects of faith we as an ummah, a nation can at least unite for the poor, sick, the orphan and those less fortunate than us.
Reply

nimrod
07-02-2006, 04:18 PM
Isaac "Salam. You know what brothers and sisters i hate to sound so blunt, but its our own fault. The christian groups are doing what Muhammed pbuh taught us and urged us to do".

Thank you for stating this.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

duskiness
07-02-2006, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by bandoo
The poor Jesus could not save himself from being hanged from the tree (as claimed in one of the four gospels) so how could he save us from the clutches of any tyrany.
- it was cross not tree, claimed in all 4 gospels. just to be precises.

format_quote Originally Posted by bandoo
The Christian missionaries everywhere are purchasing the religions of poor people of other religions in exchange of money, jobs, medical aid, etc That is the truth. They are making a mockery of humanity.
do you believe that faith can be "bought"? i mean "real faith". i always thought is a choice of soul.

format_quote Originally Posted by bandoo
Interestingly, the various Christian sects (which hate each other)
- hate? i never knew i hate them... But thanks to bandoo i have learned something about my own feelings

format_quote Originally Posted by bandoo
When the Pentacostals converted the Roman Catholic nation of Guatemala into a Pentacostal Christian nation the Pope was livid with anger and cursed these fellow Christians as Wolves in the white clothes.
-:giggling: any source, quotes bandoo?

And one more - i like Izaac's post.

n.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-02-2006, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Isaac "Salam. You know what brothers and sisters i hate to sound so blunt, but its our own fault. The christian groups are doing what Muhammed pbuh taught us and urged us to do".

Thank you for stating this.

Thanks
Nimrod
its quite true.. anyway how are the christians doing this? Where are the muslims? This is indeed our fault :(

:peace:
Reply

Isaac
07-02-2006, 07:46 PM
the largest humanitarian groups in africa are from western nations and there are a number of solely christian based ngos that are undertaing humanitarian work. some from other parts of the world carrying out humanitrian work include Christian organisations Church World Service (CWS), Australian Catholic Relief in Cambodia and the Jesuit Refugee Service.

further proof that chritisna ngos are doing humanitrain work. and this is how they do it. so why cant we become more successful. are we not suppose to compete with one another for the sake of allahs pleasure. like i said earlier im not sayng we muslims dont do humanitarian work, but wha i am saying is we could do much more with the will of allah and all the riches he has bestwoed to the muslim ummah, ie. oil, intellects ect ect.

There are six notable ways in which Christian aid agencies differ from non-religious NGOs in disaster settings:.

● Source of contributions: Christian NGOs are able to draw contributions (financial, in-kind, and in volunteer time) from thousands of churches and Christians around the world.

● Overseas partners: There are local churches in almost every country of the world that provide natural partners for relief agencies. Indeed, Christian NGOs regularly seek out the opportunity to work with local congregations in the communities of both the forced migrants and the host countries.

● Larger purpose: Unlike non-religious NGOs, Christian NGOs are able to offer disaster victims a holy vision of a better life after the crisis, reason for continuing as an active member of a community, a system of hope, and, particularly for aid workers, a system of ethics for relationships. However, because of prohibitions against the use of federal funds for religious activity, Christian NGOs must be scrupulous in separating their religious activities from their medical work. As a result, this important benefit is rarely documented.

● Access: Religious NGOs sometimes have extra access to war affected and rural peoples because of their alliances with local churches, or because they are known to be independent of government control.

● Responsibility for peace: Christian NGOs frequently focus their response efforts on building peace. Health activities are one important mechanism in peace-making and rebuilding trust.

● Focus: Some evaluators have observed that faith-based NGOs are more dedicated to the hard work involved in disaster zones, than the less-religious NGOs. Organizational politics, administrative problems, and salary negotiations are kept in perspective with the needs of the people being served when workers already “know why they are there
Reply

Panatella
07-02-2006, 07:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
the largest humanitarian groups in africa are from western nations and there are a number of solely christian based ngos that are undertaing humanitarian work. some from other parts of the world carrying out humanitrian work include Christian organisations Church World Service (CWS), Australian Catholic Relief in Cambodia and the Jesuit Refugee Service.

further proof that chritisna ngos are doing humanitrain work. and this is how they do it. so why cant we become more successful. are we not suppose to compete with one another for the sake of allahs pleasure. like i said earlier im not sayng we muslims dont do humanitarian work, but wha i am saying is we could do much more with the will of allah and all the riches he has bestwoed to the muslim ummah, ie. oil, intellects ect ect.

There are six notable ways in which Christian aid agencies differ from non-religious NGOs in disaster settings:.

● Source of contributions: Christian NGOs are able to draw contributions (financial, in-kind, and in volunteer time) from thousands of churches and Christians around the world.

● Overseas partners: There are local churches in almost every country of the world that provide natural partners for relief agencies. Indeed, Christian NGOs regularly seek out the opportunity to work with local congregations in the communities of both the forced migrants and the host countries.

● Larger purpose: Unlike non-religious NGOs, Christian NGOs are able to offer disaster victims a holy vision of a better life after the crisis, reason for continuing as an active member of a community, a system of hope, and, particularly for aid workers, a system of ethics for relationships. However, because of prohibitions against the use of federal funds for religious activity, Christian NGOs must be scrupulous in separating their religious activities from their medical work. As a result, this important benefit is rarely documented.

● Access: Religious NGOs sometimes have extra access to war affected and rural peoples because of their alliances with local churches, or because they are known to be independent of government control.

● Responsibility for peace: Christian NGOs frequently focus their response efforts on building peace. Health activities are one important mechanism in peace-making and rebuilding trust.

● Focus: Some evaluators have observed that faith-based NGOs are more dedicated to the hard work involved in disaster zones, than the less-religious NGOs. Organizational politics, administrative problems, and salary negotiations are kept in perspective with the needs of the people being served when workers already “know why they are there
There is no reason muslim groups cannot do the same. How about joint efforts between muslims and christians? Alot can still be done.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-02-2006, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
There is no reason muslim groups cannot do the same. How about joint efforts between muslims and christians? Alot can still be done.
ye and we might be able to revert a lot of them to islam :D

:salamext:
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Panatella
07-02-2006, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
ye and we might be able to revert a lot of them to islam :D

:salamext:
Perhaps each morning one muslim and one christian could arm wrestle for it (and who washes the dishes).
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-02-2006, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
Perhaps each morning one muslim and one christian could arm wrestle for it (and who washes the dishes).
LOL for who washes the dishes we can do a nice game of Rock Paper Scissors :p

:salamext:
Reply

Isaac
07-02-2006, 08:42 PM
pantella. that is a good point you make. and the biggest humanitarian organisation in the world is actually a mix of the red cross and the red crescent. they both come from different sides of the world with different stepping stones but praise be to allah they all share the same objective for once which is to help those in need.
Reply

duskiness
07-02-2006, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
pantella. that is a good point you make. and the biggest humanitarian organisation in the world is actually a mix of the red cross and the red crescent. they both come from different sides of the world with different stepping stones but praise be to allah they all share the same objective for once which is to help those in need.
but red cross/red crescent is non-religious ngo and i fact this is one organisation or one movement using 2 (or more - red star in israel, and there was red lion in iran) emblemas. Btw. now they are starting to use "red cristal" : http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/emblem!Open

n.
Reply

Bittersteel
07-02-2006, 09:30 PM
The Malaysians will pay Muslim men if they marry Orang Asli women and convert them to Islam. Even give them housing, an allowance and a car. Care to condemn that?
Care to provide evidence?
Reply

Woodrow
07-02-2006, 09:53 PM
A thought just came to mind. Why would anyone want to belong to a denomination that has such a hard time finding members, they have to resort to buying children?

This is not directed to any religion as this is more of a practice among sects and cults rather then people who sincerly believe in their religion.
Reply

KAding
07-02-2006, 10:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac
Salam. You know what brothers and sisters i hate to sound so blunt, but its our own fault. The christian groups are doing what Muhammed pbuh taught us and urged us to do. But apart from a few we dont seem to be doing so. we are a very big muslim ummah yet we cant even help and feed the poor, take in the orpans, help the widowed. I swear us muslims have to unite. this is the only way we can show our mercy to the rest of the world.
To be honest, I doubt 'unity' has much to do with it. Christianity is about as splintered a religion as one can imagine. All the different Christian denominations and churches are competing for the 'soul' of their fellow human beings. The strength of Christianity IMHO is very much in its diversity. A monolithic religion is not what attracts people IMHO, since it might well be that many can not find in it what they want. I think this competition is a great motivator for the Christian churches, since they will simply lose support in the longer term if they fail to find new members.

if we all united and had an islamic state inshallah there would be none of this happening. but we cant see face to face and it true and shameful that we have enmity in regards to colour and background.
Indeed, in an Islamic state it would not happen. Since proletyzing would simply be outlawed. Father state at its best trying to protect the masses against themselves :giggling:.

I know its probably not so easy and straightforward but the muslim ummah should have one big umbrella kind of humantitarian organisation, instead of 100s of difdferent ones. they should come together and share their ideas, on how to help the poor and bring all the projects together. if we cant unite on aspects of faith we as an ummah, a nation can at least unite for the poor, sick, the orphan and those less fortunate than us.
Again, I disagree. If we have learn one thing in history it is that monopolies, especially under the umbrella of the state, perform worse then '100s of different' independent organizations competing with eachother. Muslims should stop being so scared of diversity and pluralism.
Reply

KAding
07-02-2006, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
A thought just came to mind. Why would anyone want to belong to a denomination that has such a hard time finding members, they have to resort to buying children?

This is not directed to any religion as this is more of a practice among sects and cults rather then people who sincerly believe in their religion.
Remember, they believe they are 'saving' people. Maybe some people need a little 'motivator' before they are willing to be 'saved'. Surely, the soul of whoever was 'saved' far outweighs the material 'cost' of conversion. After all, even one soul is worth more then all the money in the world! In fact, if you have the money, then isn't it your duty to use it to save as many souls from the hellfire as possible?

I'm simply guessing of course. And I'm an atheist, so take it for what it is worth. But I can certainly see how some missionaries would reason like that.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-02-2006, 10:45 PM
^ I see your reasoning and its mainly due to the reward and expiation from hell. Noone does anything for free until they truelly learn to love Allah for the sake of loving Allah alone - (Achieving this is a great feat)

:peace:
Reply

nimrod
07-03-2006, 02:00 AM
I guess I am just slow today in my understanding.

Woodrow what exactly do you mean by “they have to resort to buying children?”?

The web-site linked on this thread tried to link a Christian group to human trafficking.

Are you saying they were buying and selling children?

That is what the web-site tried to imply, but I didn’t see where they offered any proof.

Sorry, but I am just not understanding.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

north_malaysian
07-03-2006, 02:04 AM
Why these things happened? - Muslim ummah are not merciful and helpful. We just think of ourselves (I meant those rich multi billionaire Muslims)
Reply

nimrod
07-03-2006, 02:08 AM
Abd’Majid “No one does anything for free until they truly learn to love Allah for the sake of loving Allah alone - (Achieving this is a great feat)”.

I assume that you would agree that these Christians are doing what they do, for free.

Correct?

I would also add that some Athiest do what they do for free, after all they were created in God's image as well.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 02:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
I guess I am just slow today in my understanding.

Woodrow what exactly do you mean by “they have to resort to buying children?”?

Essentialy that is what they are doing. First helping the Children then coaxing them into accepting their version of Christianity. It seems the Charity work is not for the sake of charity, it is to recruit converts.

The web-site linked on this thread tried to link a Christian group to human trafficking.
What web site? I'm at a lose there.

Are you saying they were buying and selling children?

No selling of them. Simply using the name of charity to recruit converts.

That is what the web-site tried to imply, but I didn’t see where they offered any proof.

What WEB site?

Sorry, but I am just not understanding.

Thanks
Nimrod
Hopefully my answers above clarified my meaning. But, I am curious about the web site you are mentioning. Could you direct me to the one you are refering to.
Reply

nimrod
07-03-2006, 02:44 AM
Woodrow, this one http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle05.shtml

It is listed as the source in the very first post on this thread.

As an aside they attempt to slander the Christian group in the link provided on the first page.
They, a second time, transitioned from talking about the Christian group to human traffickers here:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle04.shtml
without making any distinction.
They twice implied that the Christian group was taking part in human trafficking.
As I posted on post # 33 of this thread.

When you say “coax” what exactly do you mean, and is it any different from what Muslims are taught to do?

Is coaxing the same as buying?

Sorry, I thought you had taken the time to read the web-site linked in the first post on this thread and your posts had been made in the same theme.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

north_malaysian
07-03-2006, 03:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
Care to provide evidence?
It's mentioned in dailies last week. Islamist Governemnt of Kelantan will offer RM10,000.00 for Muslim missionaries if they marries Orang Asli women. But it's just a suggestion and being backfired by Muslims and most ISlamists too.
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 03:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Woodrow, this one http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle05.shtml

It is listed as the source in the very first post on this thread.

As an aside they attempt to slander the Christian group in the link provided on the first page.
They, a second time, transitioned from talking about the Christian group to human traffickers here:
http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle04.shtml
without making any distinction.
They twice implied that the Christian group was taking part in human trafficking.
As I posted on post # 33 of this thread.

When you say “coax” what exactly do you mean, and is it any different from what Muslims are taught to do?

Is coaxing the same as buying?

Sorry, I thought you had taken the time to read the web-site linked in the first post on this thread and your posts had been made in the same theme.

Thanks
Nimrod
No problem, I now see how you could have thought I was merely following in line with the source link. I did not see that link in quite the same way you read it. But, we are both looking from different perspectives.

Now to try to explain one step at a time:

When you say “coax” what exactly do you mean, and is it any different from what Muslims are taught to do?

Is coaxing the same as buying?

In my concept of coaxing it is covert coercien, a sales tactic of using a person's fears or gratitude to manipulate them into accepting what you are trying to sway them into believing and wanting.

To me it is a form of buying. Perhaps not with cash, but through time and effort expended to obtain a return either tangigble or intangible.

and is it any different from what Muslims are taught to do?


Muslims are taught that charity is just that, charity freely given with no expectation of return. Our concept of prostelyzing our religion is very similar to that of the Jews. We do not believe in prostelyzing. If We Gain a revert it is because the person learns of Islam through what we do, and not through what we say. I do not know of any Muslim who has ever seriously asked a non-Muslim to become Muslim, unless the person was a very close friend or family member.

PEACE,
Reply

nimrod
07-03-2006, 03:38 AM
Woodrow “In my concept of coaxing it is covert coercion, a sales tactic of using a person's fears or gratitude to manipulate them into accepting what you are trying to sway them into believing and wanting”.

Fair enough. Now tell me Exactly what it is that, this group has done that, you disagree with.

Tell me Exactly how they are resorting to “buying children” (your words).

It seems to me that the group is simply providing free help to anyone who needs it.

They are also spreading their message of God, to anyone willing to listen.

They are not with-holding any help from anyone not willing to listen.

So what is the problem?

Does not Islam teach you to do the very same thing?

Why did the site try to link them to human trafficking?

Let’s stand up together and side by side condemn the link that this thread was started from.

The link was biased in an ugly way, and that isn’t Islam nor is it Christian.

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 03:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Woodrow “In my concept of coaxing it is covert coercion, a sales tactic of using a person's fears or gratitude to manipulate them into accepting what you are trying to sway them into believing and wanting”.

Fair enough. Now tell me Exactly what it is that, this group has done that, you disagree with.

Tell me Exactly how they are resorting to “buying children” (your words).

It seems to me that the group is simply providing free help to anyone who needs it.

They are also spreading their message of God, to anyone willing to listen.

They are not with-holding any help from anyone not willing to listen.

So what is the problem?

Does not Islam teach you to do the very same thing?

Why did the site try to link them to human trafficking?

Let’s stand up together and side by side condemn the link that this thread was started from.

The link was biased in an ugly way, and that isn’t Islam nor is it Christian.

Thanks
Nimrod
Patience. Let me try one step at a time. First I will go back and restudy the link and see if I can understand what you find biased about. I do agree that prejudice is not Muslim nor Christian.
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 04:24 AM
Perhaps I am not seeing things in the same manner you are. I personaly can not see anything in the story I would call biased. I just see facts being presented.

Now to return to your other questions. I think if I try to respond in a different order, perhaps I can make my answers more understandable.

Does not Islam teach you to do the very same thing?

No, we are taught to give charity with no expectation of converting.

Now tell me Exactly what it is that, this group has done that, you disagree with.

Tell me Exactly how they are resorting to “buying children” (your words).

These are children under the age of 12. Most had been raised in Muslim Household and have a very high regard for the words of an adult. These children are very susceptable to indoctrination by adults. If this calamity had occured in the USA and an Islamic group came in, helped and then placed the children into the care of a Muslim orphanage, that was going to teach the children the Qur'an and raise the children as Muslim, there would be a world wide out rage. I believe most of the world would view that as Muslims buying children with charity.

Why did the site try to link them to human trafficking?

Because in the eyes of those concerned those are 2 related stories. I can understand you not perceiving the relationship, but keep in mind in that part of the world human trafficking is very common place and is a bonafide fear. All assistance to children will be viewed with suspicion.

It seems to me that the group is simply providing free help to anyone who needs it.

They are also spreading their message of God, to anyone willing to listen.

They are not with-holding any help from anyone not willing to listen.

So what is the problem?

I think the best answer is to keep in mind these are Muslim children. They are Muslim. To us for a Muslim to convert to Christianity is the sin of shirk. These children are being placed in the posistion of committing the one unforgivable sin in Islam. I can understand that the Christian ministers view point is they are saving the children's souls, but to us they are condeming the children to Hellfire.
Reply

snakelegs
07-03-2006, 04:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I think the best answer is to keep in mind these are Muslim children. They are Muslim. To us for a Muslim to convert to Christianity is the sin of shirk. These children are being placed in the posistion of committing the one unforgivable sin in Islam. I can understand that the Christian ministers view point is they are saving the children's souls, but to us they are condeming the children to Hellfire.
wouldn't they have the option of repenting when they come of age?
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 04:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
wouldn't they have the option of repenting when they come of age?
It would be a difficult thing as they would probably feel very hypacritical for converting to Christianity only out of gatitude .

Would it not be a better choice for the Children to be raised as Muslims, and then be allowed to decide when they reach maturity.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 05:59 AM
Woodrow and others

I put some questions relating to this part of the discussion in post #45 in this thread.
Can I refer you back to it (to save me copying and pasting it here)? I would love to hear your views.

Thanks.
Reply

snakelegs
07-03-2006, 06:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Would it not be a better choice for the Children to be raised as Muslims, and then be allowed to decide when they reach maturity.
absolutely!
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 06:08 AM
#45 copied for reference:

Re: 300 Muslim Tsunami Orphans to be Christianized: Report - 21 Hours Ago

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks you for this article.
Your comments on it have been very interesting.

I am trying to unpick to differences/similarities between Islam and Christianity in terms of spreading the faith.
Like snakelegs, I have never had any Muslims come to my door to convert me ... but then I have never had any Christians do that either. I do get people trying to sell double glazing or feather dusters for charity ...

In both, Muslims and Christians alike, I detect a desire to talk about and share their faith. Would you agree?
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?
I would even go further and say, that Islam and Christianity give us a certain responsibility to share our faith, so that non-believers may see the truth for themselves and follow the right path. Would you agree?

Where, then, do we draw the line?

Most Christian aid groups I know have strict policies on evangelising (largely perhaps, because they are monitored by secular organisations ).

I am trying to get a grasp of how Muslim aid groups would deal with a situation of orphaned (non-Muslim) children.
Let's assume a Muslim charity is working in a non-Muslim country where there are a large number of orphans.
What to do with them?
Make sure they are raised in the faith they are accustomed to? (Despite your own misgivings that this is the wrong belief?)
Make sure they are raised in the Muslim faith? (Which you believe is the right one?)
Not get involved with non-believers?

On a slightly different level, how do you feel about this situation:
The church I am involved in, runs a children's group once a week (ages 7 -14) The area I live in is urban, and fairly poor, so having activities for children is always welcome.
The group involves plenty of fun and activites, some sweets (so it's highly attractive to the children) ... and some quiet learning about Jesus' life and Christian values.
Before children join the group, it is made very clear to the parents that it is run by a church, based on Christian values, and will include some Christian teachings. Parents have to give their consent before children can join. A sheet with a Bible verse goes home every week, so parents are aware of what is going on at any time. Many non-Christian children - including Muslims - come.
What do you think?
Is our church right to do this?
Are we 'exploiting' the need of the community for children's activities to spread our faith?
Should such groups be run by non-religious organisations only?
Should the local mosque offer a similar group?

I let you ponder ...

Peace.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 06:10 AM
Thanks Woodrow. :)

I'm logging off shorty. Time to rouse the troups ... ;D

Peace.
Reply

snakelegs
07-03-2006, 06:28 AM
hi glo,
one of the links sonz gave was to an article i read a long time ago in mother jones magazine (which i think is pretty credible). it's kind of long, but i think you might find it interesting, tho quite disturbing. it just deals with one brand of missionaries that focus esp. on muslims. i don't know how typical they are for christianity, but in any case, i think you would agree that it is these type of tactics that give missionaries a bad name.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...5/stealth.html

a few excerpts:

"Indeed, evangelical leaders encourage missionaries to continue proselytizing, even though converts might be tortured or killed. "Missionaries need maturity and spiritual toughness so that when the fruits of their witness are required to walk through the fire, the missionary does not automatically attempt to rescue them," the Southern Baptist study urges. "Persecution is Biblically and historically normative for the emerging church; it cannot be avoided or eliminated.... To avoid persecution is to hamper the growth of the kingdom of God."

In the end, say evangelicals, the earthly suffering of Christians pales before the eternal hell to which Muslims are sentenced. "It's hard for me to say, 'I have a passport out of here if things get out of hand, but you have to stay here and take it,'" says Raymond Weiss, a former missionary in Bahrain. "But that's what Jesus says: Sometimes it will be fathers and mothers against each other for his sake. If Jesus is cosmically, ultimately true, then whatever cost in this world is nothing."
Reply

snakelegs
07-03-2006, 06:34 AM
missionaries come around here, even tho less frequently than they used to. maybe they think it's too dangerous now, i dunno. mormons are the most common.
i am not very fond of them.
Reply

Woodrow
07-03-2006, 06:46 AM
Copied from Glo's post #45

Red are my replies:

I am trying to unpick to differences/similarities between Islam and Christianity in terms of spreading the faith.
Like snakelegs, I have never had any Muslims come to my door to convert me ... but then I have never had any Christians do that either. I do get people trying to sell double glazing or feather dusters for charity ...

In both, Muslims and Christians alike, I detect a desire to talk about and share their faith. Would you agree?

I agree with that. I think all people who genuinly love God(swt) want to express their love to all people they meet.


With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?

Speaking for myself as a Muslim. I see little value in my desires. I do not have the power to save anybody. I can only live my life to the best of my ability as a Muslim. If anyone wishes to live as I do, I will gladly share with them.

I would even go further and say, that Islam and Christianity give us a certain responsibility to share our faith, so that non-believers may see the truth for themselves and follow the right path. Would you agree?

I will agree, but I believe we need to share it by example and not by words. I can want everybody to find the beauty of the Qur'an, but I would never ask anyone to read it, unless they expressed a true desire to learn about it. Then I would only give them a translation of it, in their own language. Which to us is not the Qur'an. If a person still showed interest, I would help them prepare to read the true Arabic.

Where, then, do we draw the line?

Most Christian aid groups I know have strict policies on evangelising (largely perhaps, because they are monitored by secular organisations ).

I will agree with that. I have no fault with the majority of Christian Aid groups. Nearly all I know do not use that as a means to prostelyze their beliefs.

I am trying to get a grasp of how Muslim aid groups would deal with a situation of orphaned (non-Muslim) children.

In the situations I know of where Islamic aid groups came to help Non-Muslims (Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana) The aid was primarily in the form of financial assistance, with no direct contact with the people. being helped. Most who were helped are not and never will be aware of where the money came from.

Let's assume a Muslim charity is working in a non-Muslim country where there are a large number of orphans.
What to do with them?

From the few situations I know of, The aid went to place the children in orphanages or families of their own faith.

Make sure they are raised in the faith they are accustomed to? (Despite your own misgivings that this is the wrong belief?)
Make sure they are raised in the Muslim faith? (Which you believe is the right one?)
Not get involved with non-believers?

Involved with them for humanitarian reasons. But, we are forbidden to give them any reason to have to become Muslim, unless it is their own genuine choice.

On a slightly different level, how do you feel about this situation:
The church I am involved in, runs a children's group once a week (ages 7 -14) The area I live in is urban, and fairly poor, so having activities for children is always welcome.
The group involves plenty of fun and activites, some sweets (so it's highly attractive to the children) ... and some quiet learning about Jesus' life and Christian values.
Before children join the group, it is made very clear to the parents that it is run by a church, based on Christian values, and will include some Christian teachings. Parents have to give their consent before children can join. A sheet with a Bible verse goes home every week, so parents are aware of what is going on at any time. Many non-Christian children - including Muslims - come.
What do you think?

There does not seem to be any compulsion. The Children are not in a situation to feel obligated, they return to the guidance of their parents. I don't see any problem.

Is our church right to do this?

Of course your Church is right in doing that. It is a free choice. It is the responsibility of the parents and the children to decide if they are violating the Qur'an. My concern would be if the children might be violating our rules about seperation of the genders and if the children are free to keep their prayer times. But, that is the responsibility of the parents to find out, before letting the children attend.

Are we 'exploiting' the need of the community for children's activities to spread our faith?

That is a gray area. The intents seem to be two fold, can/are the intents seperate? one intent to provide for the growth of all children, with no compulsion of religion or is the intent is that all children will convert.

Should such groups be run by non-religious organisations only?

No, some times the secular organizations will be the least tolerant over individual religious beliefs.


Should the local mosque offer a similar group?

I think it should, if it has sufficient funds to do so.

I let you ponder ...

Peace.
Reply

muslim_friend
07-03-2006, 07:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?

Speaking for myself as a Muslim. I see little value in my desires. I do not have the power to save anybody. I can only live my life to the best of my ability as a Muslim. If anyone wishes to live as I do, I will gladly share with them.
Woodrow is right. Unlike Christian belief, no muslim is guaranteed paradise.

I agree that if a muslim holds someone close to his heart, it is natural that he will try to 'save' the other, and vice-versa. But then it is important to understand that it is only Allah who guides and Allah who misguides, not the muslim. If Allah had wished that such and such will never accept the truth.. then it is hopeless to try convert him, wouldn't you agree?.. This is where our intentions change. Since now, we know that there is no promise or guarantee that a kafir will turn muslim.. we might as well show him the truth only to please Allah. In fact, not just this, but every good action that muslims do are with the intention of pleasing Allah.. 'Love' for the non-muslim may serve a secondary reason only.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-03-2006, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Abd’Majid “No one does anything for free until they truly learn to love Allah for the sake of loving Allah alone - (Achieving this is a great feat)”.

I assume that you would agree that these Christians are doing what they do, for free.

Correct?

I would also add that some Athiest do what they do for free, after all they were created in God's image as well.

Thanks
Nimrod
:peace: Nimrod :),

My understanding on christian doctrine is poor. Do they think that good deeds are required to get into heaven? If not then yes, i think they are doing it for free. Also i dont believe any of us is created in Gods image seeing as noone can comprehend Gods image.


Wa lamya kullahu kuffuan Ahad!
And there is none like the one and only Allah!

:peace:
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 02:59 PM
Thank you Woodrow.
Your opinion means much to me.

Can I pick up on this quote of yours:
With the conviction that those who do not share our belief in 'our' God will go to hell, comes a desire to 'save' those un-believers, especially those who are close to our hearts and who we love! Would you agree?

Speaking for myself as a Muslim. I see little value in my desires. I do not have the power to save anybody. I can only live my life to the best of my ability as a Muslim. If anyone wishes to live as I do, I will gladly share with them.
I appreciate what you are saying. And I would agree as a Christian. Only God can convict people of the truth. We can merely live our faith, and share it with people if they are open to it.

But, on a more personal level , how do you deal with loved ones, who choose not to follow your religion, and thereby - according to the teachings of your religion - are doomed to eternal punishment?
It may be fine to accept that strangers may choose whichever path they like ... but with loved ones that is much harder to do. :X

peace.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
hi glo,
one of the links sonz gave was to an article i read a long time ago in mother jones magazine (which i think is pretty credible). it's kind of long, but i think you might find it interesting, tho quite disturbing. it just deals with one brand of missionaries that focus esp. on muslims. i don't know how typical they are for christianity, but in any case, i think you would agree that it is these type of tactics that give missionaries a bad name.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...5/stealth.html

a few excerpts:

"Indeed, evangelical leaders encourage missionaries to continue proselytizing, even though converts might be tortured or killed. "Missionaries need maturity and spiritual toughness so that when the fruits of their witness are required to walk through the fire, the missionary does not automatically attempt to rescue them," the Southern Baptist study urges. "Persecution is Biblically and historically normative for the emerging church; it cannot be avoided or eliminated.... To avoid persecution is to hamper the growth of the kingdom of God."

In the end, say evangelicals, the earthly suffering of Christians pales before the eternal hell to which Muslims are sentenced. "It's hard for me to say, 'I have a passport out of here if things get out of hand, but you have to stay here and take it,'" says Raymond Weiss, a former missionary in Bahrain. "But that's what Jesus says: Sometimes it will be fathers and mothers against each other for his sake. If Jesus is cosmically, ultimately true, then whatever cost in this world is nothing."
Thanks snakelegs.
So far I have only skimmed over the rather long article.
You are right, it's a rather creepy and disturbing read ... although a peep into Frontier's own website shows they they are driven by a strong (and perhaps rather misguided) love for the Muslim people. :rollseyes

You could argue that, if sharing other faiths was not illegal and punishable in some countries, people wouldn't feel the need to adopt dubious and sneaky methods to do just that.

Wouldn't it be nice, if people across the world could just share and discuss their different faiths, and be free to convert from one faith to another!
Ahhh ... I have a dream today.
:statisfie

Peace.
Reply

Umar001
07-03-2006, 03:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NEM
No.
Redeemed Brother of His Holy family is what ~ I Am.
Are you claiming Divinity???

Anyhow anyone else who directed anything towards me sorry I have missed it, and it seems the thread has moved on abit so if u want me to asnwer anything then re post it or pm me.

peace
Reply

nimrod
07-03-2006, 06:00 PM
Glo, I too read the article Snake Legs referred to.

I guess, I am not just understanding the math.

From the article:

"Virtually overnight, local believers are left destitute and exposed." The study cites Indonesia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and Pakistan as particularly repressive. In one East African community, it reports, converts were "systematically hunted down and martyred by adherents to Islam. Other believers are displaced; they live in refugee camps; they reside in adjacent countries, or in the West."


So these converts to Christianity are hunted down and murdered among other bad things happening to them………. And it’s the fault of the Missionaries??????

Surely that has to be some twisted logic.

The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????

The real problem isn’t those that are going around persecuting and sometimes murdering those who convert????????

Man that has to be some twisted logic.

I just don’t get it.

That's like saying "She deserved to get raped because of the way she was dressed".

Do you understand what I am saying Glo?

Thanks
Nimrod
Reply

HeiGou
07-03-2006, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abd'Majid
My understanding on christian doctrine is poor. Do they think that good deeds are required to get into heaven? If not then yes, i think they are doing it for free.
Christian doctrine varies from Church to Church. Some Churches think that Good Deeds are pointless. What is needed is God's Grace. This is especially true of the more Protestant Protestant Churches. The extreme case are those who believe in pre-destination which claims that God has decided who will go to Heaven already and did so before Creation and hence nothing we do can affect our chances one way or the other. However the mainstream Christian position in the Catholics who accept Good Deeds and Divine Grace are both important. So you can get into Heaven if you do enough Good Deeds even if you are not particularly nice or pleasant as a person. The extreme case is Dostoyevsky who had a character in one of his novels who got into Heaven because she once gave an onion to someone.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 06:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????

The real problem isn’t those that are going around persecuting and sometimes murdering those who convert????????
Yes, I know what you mean, Nimrod.
As I said earlier:
Wouldn't it be nice, if people across the world could just share and discuss their different faiths, and be free to convert from one faith to another!

In an ideal world, there wouldn't be any imprisonment, torture or death as punishment for the conversion to another faith in the first place.

Sadly, this is not an ideal world we live in. :-\

peace.
Reply

Bittersteel
07-03-2006, 06:50 PM
The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????
some groups actually hold back food if you don't accept Jesus or something like that.
besides they rely on lies and deceit.so Christians aren't better than us terrorist,sexist,evil Muslims.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 06:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
some groups actually hold back food if you don't accept Jesus or something like that.
besides they rely on lies and deceit.so Christians aren't better than us terrorist,sexist,evil Muslims.
I have heard this several times before, and I have challenged people to provide me with evidence for any such activities. So far nobody has done so.
If these rumours are actually true, they would be going very much against Jesus' teachings - and I, for one, would be very happy to try and take action against any such organisation.

So, if you have real evidence, and can name any organisation, please let me know, Emir Aziz!

peace.
Reply

Panatella
07-03-2006, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I have heard this several times before, and I have challenged people to provide me with evidence for any such activities. So far nobody has done so.
If these rumours are actually true, they would be going very much against Jesus' teachings - and I, for one, would be very happy to try and take action against any such organisation.

So, if you have real evidence, and can name any organisation, please let me know, Emir Aziz!

peace.
I have asked several times for the proof of this, but it seems to only be a myth.
Reply

Bittersteel
07-03-2006, 07:00 PM
alright I will try.you can google too.and it occured in the Tsunami disaster and Buddhists were victims too.
Reply

snakelegs
07-03-2006, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nimrod
Glo, I too read the article Snake Legs referred to.

I guess, I am not just understanding the math.

From the article:

"Virtually overnight, local believers are left destitute and exposed." The study cites Indonesia, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and Pakistan as particularly repressive. In one East African community, it reports, converts were "systematically hunted down and martyred by adherents to Islam. Other believers are displaced; they live in refugee camps; they reside in adjacent countries, or in the West."

So these converts to Christianity are hunted down and murdered among other bad things happening to them………. And it’s the fault of the Missionaries??????

Surely that has to be some twisted logic.

The problem is the fact that these people, who are providing free food and help to people who need it, also talk about Jesus??????

The real problem isn’t those that are going around persecuting and sometimes murdering those who convert????????

Man that has to be some twisted logic.

I just don’t get it.

That's like saying "She deserved to get raped because of the way she was dressed".

Do you understand what I am saying Glo?

Thanks
Nimrod
hi nimrod,
i know you weren't talking to me, but anyway....when has that ever stopped me?
yes, the repressive countries are at fault. for sure. however, how can you justify converting somebody even tho you know the person could be killed because of his new faith (which is totally outrageous) and justify it on the grounds that you've saved him from roasting in hell after death? don't you think you should leave things like this is god's hands?
i don't think this group is representative of christian missionaries, but it's due to the few that are like this that missionaries have a bad reputation among non-christians. in india, a lot of hindus are getting pretty alarmed too. it is not only religion - i've heard from many indians that in the mission schools they are taught to look down on anything indian and not allowed to speak indian languages. although i've also heard of mission schools that did not do this and just provided a good education.
it's not quite like it used to be - the tv evangelical business has huge amounts of cash at its disposal to shower potential converts with goodies. there is a growing animosity toward christian missionaries in the non-christian world.
yes - the real problem in this case is indeed those who are persecuting and even killing the converts. no argument on that. but wouldn't you think twice before you helped put someone in this much danger? we can't change those hideous laws, but we can avoid putting someone in this position. i don't know how a missionary could just walk away and feel no sense of responsibility.
if a person lives a just and moral life, do you really believe that god is going to send him to hell because he followed the wrong brand of religion?
people should be free to choose their religion and not stay in one only because they are forced to do so by threat of death.
i support people's right to adopt a new religion, but i am opposed to missionaries.
ultimately, the way i see it - it is a matter between the individual and god. but of course a muslim or christian wouldn't see it that way.
Reply

- Qatada -
07-03-2006, 07:02 PM
Has anyone ever realised why apostates in islam are killed? Their killed because its a form of treason.


Now that may seem offensive to some - but just think about it, the USA (the worlds "greatest power") has the punishment of death on anyone who commits treason.


So why should it be such a controversial issue? Belief that no-one should worship anything else, except the One God who created that person is more serious than killing someone just because they went against the country they are located in?


Just something to think about.. and Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
alright I will try.
Thanks, Emir Aziz. :)
Reply

snakelegs
07-03-2006, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Has anyone ever realised why apostates in islam are killed? Their killed because its a form of treason.


Now that may seem offensive to some - but just think about it, the USA (the worlds "greatest power") has the punishment of death on anyone who commits treason.


So why should it be such a controversial issue? Belief that no-one should worship anything else, except the One God who created that person is more serious than killing someone just because they went against the country they are located in?


Just something to think about.. and Allaah Almighty knows best.


Peace.
it is due to reasons like this that islam is regarded more as an ideology and not just a religion, and as such, a potential danger to non-muslims.
Reply

Bittersteel
07-03-2006, 07:09 PM
"CASE HISTORY OF A WOMAN WHO CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY"

1997: Usha Chamanlal converted to Christianity.
1998, Jan. Usha made contact with Willard Thiessen of "Trinity Television' "Its a New Day"
1998, Sept. Usha started working for "Trinity television"
1998, Nov. Usha stated that Betty Thiessen told her that if she made it harder on her husband he might become closer to God.
1998, Nov. Pastor Bob (Willards son-in-law and Usha's counselor) stated she should remove all hindrances and obstacles in her quest for Christ.
1998, Nov. Usha deserts her husband and abandons her eight year old son to live with Brent Anderson (a cameraman at Trinity Television ) "to save souls for Christ" (Letters and journals 1998, Nov.)

The results of converting to Christianity can be disastrous to converts and their families. It is interesting to note that these people want ethics and morals put into Muslim governments.

The evangelist can find that breaking up families can be economically advantageous. Young people can contribute future earnings to the ministry. Young women and wives can be used sexually by the ministry. An economic advantage is also gained by wives who leave their husbands, especially in North America. If a woman is articulate she can be persuaded to go on the speakers circuit to make money for the ministry. ( Abuse by her husband is a good topic in North America. ) In North America there are professional speakers who go from church to church or ministry raising money for the people who sponsor them. If a woman has talents in the martial arts she can be persuaded to make teaching tapes for the ministry to distribute to create extra income. In North America the property is divided upon divorce. The woman can be persuaded to give the proceeds from the property settlement to the ministry. In Manitoba, Canada the assets: car, home, business, pension funds, etc. are divided 50/50 upon divorce. If the woman can be persuaded by the ministry to donate this money to the ministry this can be very lucrative. Widows alienated from their children can be asked to leave money to the ministry in their will when they die. (Trinity Television Newsletter Nov. 1998) In North America a will is a legal document which describes who you want your money and assets to be given to when you die.

In this paper I have only touched the surface of conversion to Christianity. If anyone wants to receive further information from me my email address is : <removed>. If you have links I would appreciate them. If you are want more of this information please contact me. If you have any comments on this article they would be appreciated.

David Kostinchuk

http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0011.htm

this story could be false but not sure.such things have happened.
even a Christian woman left her Christian husband(I met this guy on the forums) for a Muslim man and she converted apparently for marriage.
and I regard this as wrong.I felt sorry and still do for that Christian guy.
Reply

Bittersteel
07-03-2006, 07:12 PM
Thanks, Emir Aziz.
you are welcome.I heard this after the Katrina incident too(hurricane Katrina).maybe some groups were like this and maybe some weren't.

Don't misunderstand me glo ,Christians can preach all they want ,I don't care if Muslims convert to Christianity.Its these deceitful methods used that angers me.

http://www.truthformuslims.com/articles/wsj_2001.htm

Here it Is:http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html

Sunday January 16, 5:13 PM

Villagers furious with Christian Missionaries







Samanthapettai, Jan 16 (ANI): Rage and fury has gripped this tsunami-hit tiny Hindu village in India's southern Tamil Nadu after a group of Christian missionaries allegedly refused them aid for not agreeing to follow their religion.

Samanthapettai, near the temple town of Madurai, faced near devastation on the December 26 when massive tidal waves wiped it clean of homes and lives.

Most of the 200 people here are homeless or displaced , battling to rebuild lives and locating lost family members besides facing risks of epidemic,disease and trauma.

Jubilant at seeing the relief trucks loaded with food, clothes and the much-needed medicines the villagers, many of who have not had a square meal in days, were shocked when the nuns asked them to convert before distributing biscuits and water.

Heated arguments broke out as the locals forcibly tried to stop the relief trucks from leaving. The missionaries, who rushed into their cars on seeing television reporters and the cameras refusing to comment on the incident and managed to leave the village.

Disappointed and shocked into disbelief the hapless villagers still await aid.

"Many NGOs (volunteer groups) are extending help to us but there in our village the NGO, which was till now helping us is now asking us to follow the Christian religion. We are staunch followers of Hindu religion and refused their request. And after that these people with their aid materials are leaving the village without distributing that to us," Rajni Kumar, a villager said.

The incident is an exception to concerted charity in a catastrophe that has left no one untouched.(ANI)
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 07:25 PM
Hi Emir Aziz

Thanks for the links.

I must say, it not quite what I imagined when you said 'some groups actually hold back food if you don't accept Jesus'.

I also bear in mind that the article you provided is very heavily pro-Islam and anti-Christianity, but it names a good few organisations, which I will try to read up on.

Its these deceitful methods used that angers me.
I quite agree!
The way I see it, having to employ such devious methods actually demonstrates a lack of faith in God. If you believe that God can speak into people's hearts and lead them to the truth, then you only need prayer, not sledge-hammer approaches!
Which takes us back to providing help for people in needs, and sharing your faith as and when appropriate and invited.
peace.
Reply

glo
07-03-2006, 07:31 PM
Here it Is:http://in.news.yahoo.com/050116/139/2j1rp.html

A shame that the organisation behind the alleged incident isn't named.
I guess with so many unchartered groups, nobody quite knows who is who, and people aren't accountable. The more reason for more strategic joint working under umbrella organisations!

I'm glad they put this comment in:
The incident is an exception to concerted charity in a catastrophe that has left no one untouched.
peace.
Reply

Panatella
07-03-2006, 07:59 PM
Thanks Emir Aziz,
That is the first evidence I have seen of this. It is not common for aid groups to do this of course, these clowns are an exception.
People should not be discouraged from contributing to aid groups, but it might be better to give to the larger well known ones.
Reply

searchingsoul
07-07-2006, 06:55 AM
I hope the orphaned children find peace in their religion and use their spirituality in times of distress.
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-10-2006, 09:05 AM
:sl:
I m quite experience of some of the events like this in my locality

Most of the time events happened in a very rural area.

Needy uneducated people targeted. it's not a new news of the world.
(open secret)

In Islam: u cannot covert others by force but convey the massage of Allaah

Al-Qur'an, 002.256 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
08-10-2006, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
So you really advocate forcing children to change their religion?
:w:
Is that hypocritical when some muslims devote their every breath to convert others?
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
08-10-2006, 09:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I know (and appreciate) that Muslims do their bit to spread the Word of Allah. But I don't know many incidences of Muslims forcing their religion on children.
:w:
Perhaps you'd like to attend the places i have where they get so called converts from other faiths to mock the relgion they've left behind (with force) to the sound of applause. I'm serious, if anyone wants to go let me know and let me tell you it's an eye opener. However i do not include all muslims to participate in such acts. I know of a few who are firm in their faith and respect mine too!
Reply

i_m_tipu
08-10-2006, 09:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Is that hypocritical when some muslims devote their every breath to convert others?
read the prev post

short brief with verse how muslim can convert others
Reply

guyabano
08-10-2006, 11:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
So you really advocate forcing children to change their religion?
:w:
Where is the problem? Some cheer here when Jews get killed. Anyway, when the kids reach mature age, they still can decide, what religion they want. - lucky kids, they can have a view from different angles -
Reply

umm-sulaim
08-10-2006, 11:16 AM
Oh subahnallah......may Allah save them from it..

"wa yamkuruuna wa yamkuru Allahu wallahu khyrul maakireen"
and they plot, but Allah is plotting and Allah is the best of plotters..

How can people here adopt them, is it possible?

wassalaam
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- Qatada -
08-10-2006, 12:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Is that hypocritical when some muslims devote their every breath to convert others?


The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal. (5:99)


We don't need to force anyone to convert:

Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-

And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-

Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;



[Qur'aan 53: 37-39]


Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Qur'an 2:256)


Peace.




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Abdul-Raouf
12-26-2006, 02:57 AM
Whomsoever Allah guides none can misguide and whosoever Allah misguides noone can guide.
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Pygoscelis
12-26-2006, 06:20 AM
This is sickening. It is child abuse. It completely disgusts me.

It is classic brainwashing. Take somebody at their most desparate and help them up, and attach your propaganda while doing so. These missionaries are preying on the vulnerable. They are scum of the lowest order.

Charity should be done for the sake of charity, not for the sake of brainwashing.

When a charity approaches me for a donation I always have two questions. First, What is the overhead? Second, Is this charity in any way affiliated with any religion or world view?

I will seek out secular charities and give them my charitable contributions. My personal favourite is Doctors Without Borders.
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Pygoscelis
12-26-2006, 06:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I know (and appreciate) that Muslims do their bit to spread the Word of Allah. But I don't know many incidences of Muslims forcing their religion on children.
:w:

Except of course upon their own children.

And I agree that Muslims have been less pushy with their religion on me. They tend to keep it to themselves here. I do not know if this will hold true if they become the majority though. Only time will tell.
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Israfil
12-26-2006, 06:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
Be honest with yourselves guys. Is Islam any less guilty when it comes to converting people?
I didnt see any victim from hurricane Katrina converting to Islam when Kuwait donated half a billion dollars. Try try with the cheap shot though +o(
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Israfil
12-26-2006, 06:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Except of course upon their own children.
Any that is wrong how?? It is only unethical if they exploit Islam upon their children for evil purposes such as terrorism.
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SilentObserver
12-26-2006, 06:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muzammil
Whomsoever Allah guides none can misguide and whosoever Allah misguides noone can guide.


whosoever Allah misguides noone can guide
Does Allah misguide people?
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glo
12-26-2006, 10:27 AM
Perhaps this is a good opportunity for all of us to remember and pray for those who suffered in the Tsunami, which happened two years ago today.
Many have not yet rebuilt their lives fully ... :cry:

Peace on earth to all mankind.
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Bittersteel
12-26-2006, 04:05 PM
acually these 300 children are not being Christianized.the Indonesian government stopped it,IIRC.Go and check Islamonline.net.
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Bittersteel
12-26-2006, 04:14 PM
http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...rticle03.shtml
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Pygoscelis
12-26-2006, 05:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Israfil
Any that is wrong how?? It is only unethical if they exploit Islam upon their children for evil purposes such as terrorism.
Depends on your perspective really.

It certainly isn't as evil as those who exploit upon their children for terrorism. There we agree.
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sudais1
12-26-2006, 05:45 PM
How can I adopt one??
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abdmez
12-27-2006, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sudais1
How can I adopt one??
Not sure, but it has become harder because many people wish to traffic children and make them slaves and stuff. The goverment is really trying to stop it so expect a tough time, but I still encourage you to do so.
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sudais1
12-27-2006, 01:21 AM
is it just me or i can never actually see my posts??
Reply

KAding
12-27-2006, 02:04 AM
This reminds me of something I read on Islam-QA:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...eng&txt=dhimmi
Question:
Is it permissible to give zakaah to a kaafir?.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

It is not permissible to give zakaah to a kaafir except if it is to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined towards Islam.
Perhaps some Christian denominations have similar rules?
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glo
12-27-2006, 04:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
This reminds me of something I read on Islam-QA:
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?re...eng&txt=dhimmi


Perhaps some Christian denominations have similar rules?
Woah, this question has intrigued me, KAding!

Am I reading correctly that Muslims are not supposed to extend their charitable giving to non-Muslims, unless they are at least 'inclined towards Islam'?

What's interesting is that Christians are sometimes criticised for trying to convert people to Christianity by offering them food and material goods - especially in uderpriviledged and impoverished countries ... :cry:
But this Islamic ruling does not seem all so different. Along the lines of 'I cannot give zakaah to you, unless you show an interest in Islam' ... :rollseyes

In both situations I would say it is
  1. unethical to exploit people's unmet needs and suffering to try and convert them, and
  2. it is a highly ineffective way of changing people's beliefs. People's motivation to seek God should come from within, and not be driven by hunger ...!


But that aside, I tried to find an answer to your question. I came across this site, which does not affiliate itself to any specific denomination, but is based on Protestant teachings:
Statement of faith here: http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=1&page=164

To whom should I give?
While the Bible does not spell everything out in as much detail as we might like, it does give us some clear instructions on to whom we should give.

(1) We should give to the church. The church is the bride of Christ and God’s unique institution in the world. As such, it is the first and worthiest recipient of Christian giving. Specifically, we should give to pay pastors for their work (1 Timothy 5:17-18) and to support our missionaries (Philippians 4:15-19), among other things.
(2) We should give to the needy in the church. The Bible has a special concern for the poor and needy, specifically widows and orphans (James 1:27), the hungry, the thirsty, the sick, the naked, aliens and prisoners (Matthew 25:34-40), as well as victims of calamity (Luke 10:30-37). Because the Christian church is our spiritual family, we are especially responsible for the Christian needy (Romans 12:13), in the same way that we give attention to our own spouses, children and parents over other people.
(3) We should give to the needy in the world . While our first responsibility is to our needy Christian brothers, the Bible also instructs us to give to the poor and needy in general, Christian or not(Deuteronomy 15:11).
(4) We should give even to our enemies. This is perhaps the special mark of Christian generosity. Because God in Christ gave to us when we were his enemies, he calls us to be like him by giving to our enemies. This is the point of Jesus’ story of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37) and of Paul’s instruction in Romans 12:20.
(5) We should give to the kingdom of God generally. If you’re not sure where to start looking, use the Generous Giving Marketplace to find opportunities to give to ministries that share your particular passions and calling in God’s kingdom. The above categories do not exhaust the things to which Christians may give. Rather, the Bible sparks our creativity to give to God’s work wherever we find it. We are first of all responsible for the church and for the poor, but beyond that, we can and should give imaginatively so as to seek the kingdom of God (Matthew 6:33).
Whole site: http://www.generousgiving.org/page.asp?sec=43&page=412

Now I have found this site, I will keep it bookmarked. It looks very interesting! :)

Peace
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-27-2006, 04:26 AM
Of course any would want help in their time of need, but no child is asking u to come and brainwash, thats not charity people! Whoever thinks otherwise, is lacking half a brain, or all of it maybe. Mind u, a child is still learning and someone is pushing ideas in there head, especially when they become orphans due to circumstances. Charity is much appreciated, regardless of what faith, but dont push your beliefs in someone else head, especially when they're prolly feeling weak. Im no high official on my faith. If and when i give charity to people, regardless if they're in my faith or not, i dont preach my faith at the same time. The time the earthquake happened in Pakistan, my mom went to a church near my house, cuz a sister there wanted to help. So i thought how nice. But when I checked through what they gave, they had pamphlets, papers etc saying Jesus loves you. Basically anything a Christian would say, that we wouldnt. Why would u do that when majority are Muslim? Is that not missionizing? If i ever wrote something, i would write trust in God or something good, not preach my faith. Tell me about one Msulim who forces their faith on you. And no im not talking about Al Qaeda or Taliban.

ok i needed to get it out:phew
Peace
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M for Maliki
12-27-2006, 04:48 AM
I just read the article, and as I'm pressed for time, I'll add my two cents:

This article is pure baloney. Obviously, this "Press Release" is grossly unreliable since it comes from the offending agency itself, and as everyone here knows that these pigs are perfectly willing to sink to deceit to accomplish their tasks, it should also come as no surprise that they are willing to do the same in reporting their "success".

In reality, christian missionaries are growing extremely frustrated with their lack of success, despite their lying ways (example, Time magazing once reported a christian mission in Kenya broadcasting a false adhan to lure unsuspecting Muslims to hear christian preaching....). A hospital I used to work at funded several protestant christian missions, and it always used to bring a smile to my face when the flustered and unsuccessful missionaries returned from africa complaining about stubborn and deluded muslims. Their primary tactic was to deliver "food aid" to Muslim villages along with crates of Bibles in the local language. Of course, both would be eagerly accepted by the hungry Muslims. The Missionaries would leave, and come back the next morning to preach to their new batch of converts.

THey would arrive only to find the bibles and empty food crates stacked in a pile outside the village. Haha!


I have had no doubt that a few missionaries have been successfuly; they deliberately prey on the weak willed, weak minded, and ignorant. But I have every confidence that the numbers they report are grossly exaggerated. I also know they are hideous liars who will recieve hell for their recompense. Dressing up as shaykhs, pulling the above mentioned adhan trick, passing out bibles and calling them Qur'ans.....christian missionaries have no sense of integrity.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-27-2006, 04:52 AM
^^ Lol!
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glo
12-27-2006, 05:12 AM
I will have to do some greater research into these claims of Christian missionaries going through all kinds of remarkable efforts to deceive non-Christians into becoming Christians ... most of those accounts are anecdotal and seem - forgive me for saying so - of a rather propagandistic nature.

Whilst I cannot and will not disproof that some people may use unconventional and unethical practices - and I would condemn those strongly!!! - none of the mainstream Christian missionary charities apply such tactics ... but then, perhaps I am totally naive and ignorant! :rollseyes

Perhaps I am just trying to add a little balance to this thread ... and perhaps it is futile of me to do so - but please don't think that this kind of thing is what Christianity teaches ... :?
If nothing else, cohercing people into changing their religion would be meaningless! God knows our hearts, and he knows whether our faith is genuine or just pretend. And that is what matters.

We should neither try to coherce people into converting into our faith, nor prevent people from converting into another faith if they so desire ...
Both, Christianity and Islam would do well to remember that!
:rollseyes

It is easy for us to say that 'people have free will' and that there is 'no compulsion in religion' - but it is not so easy to apply in practice, when many of us desire to see other people to come to or remain in what we perceive to be the 'true faith'.
Perhaps we should all search out hearts in this matter ...

peace
Reply

Malaikah
12-27-2006, 05:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Am I reading correctly that Muslims are not supposed to extend their charitable giving to non-Muslims, unless they are at least 'inclined towards Islam'?
Hi Glo,

No it is not true that Muslims cannot give in charity to non-Muslims. There is a difference between zakat and charity. Zakat is like a tax payed by the Muslims has a specific use:

“As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa’ (poor), and Al‑Masaakeen (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allaah’s Cause (i.e. for Mujaahidoon — those fighting in a holy battle), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allaah. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Tawbah 9:60]

Charity itself is different to zakat, and is not compulsory and can be given to anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim:

9 – It is not permissible to give zakaah to kuffaar and mushrikeen.

Sadaqah may be given to kuffaar and mushrikeen.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And they give food, in spite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the Miskeen (the poor), the orphan, and the captive”

[al-Insaan 76:8]

Al-Qurtubi said: In dar al-Islam (the Muslim lands), a captive could only be a mushrik.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=9449&ln=eng

Hope that helps!
Reply

glo
12-27-2006, 05:30 AM
Thank you, cheese. :)

The way I understand it now is that zakat is compulsory (one of the five pillars, right?), and can only be given to Muslims, or those 'inclined towards Islam).
Charitable giving to non-Muslims falls under general good deeds, and is encouraged but not compulsory ... :?

Thanks
Reply

Malaikah
12-27-2006, 05:34 AM
^Yeh thats right. Charity is HIGHLY encouraged, like really really encouraged.

Anyway, when you think about, the non-Muslims living in an Islamic country don't pay Zakat, they pay something else, so why should they be given from the zakat money?:?
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glo
12-27-2006, 05:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
^Yeh thats right. Charity is HIGHLY encouraged, like really really encouraged.

Anyway, when you think about, the non-Muslims living in an Islamic country don't pay Zakat, they pay something else, so why should they be given from the zakat money?:?
Does zakat only apply in Islamic countries? :?
How do Muslims in non-Islamic countries pay zakat, and who to? Is it similar to tithing in Christian churches?
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M for Maliki
12-27-2006, 05:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I will have to do some greater research into these claims of Christian missionaries going through all kinds of remarkable efforts to deceive non-Christians into becoming Christians ... most of those accounts are anecdotal and seem - forgive me for saying so - of a rather propagandistic nature.
I'm going to ignore the last part. Propaganda is by definition exaggeration or deceit, and I will have no part in it.

As for your verification, ask any missionary. I myself saw one in a thoub outside the ISNA convention in DC in 2002, extolling the benefits of "Submission to Isa" (astaghfirullah!). The Time magazine article I mentioned was their front cover article entitled "Should Christians Convert Muslims?", and I believe it was from 2004 or 2005.

Whilst I cannot and will not disproof that some people may use unconventional and unethical practices - and I would condemn those strongly!!! - none of the mainstream Christian missionary charities apply such tactics ... but then, perhaps I am totally naive and ignorant! :rollseyes
Don't count anything out


Perhaps I am just trying to add a little balance to this thread ... and perhaps it is futile of me to do so - but please don't think that this kind of thing is what Christianity teaches ... :?
That depends on what christianity you are talking about. Last I checked, there were about 33,000 different christian denominations totaling about 2.3 billion christians. Do you champion your version as correct and everyone else wrong?

If nothing else, cohercing people into changing their religion would be meaningless! God knows our hearts, and he knows whether our faith is genuine or just pretend. And that is what matters.

We should neither try to coherce people into converting into our faith, nor prevent people from converting into another faith if they so desire ...
Both, Christianity and Islam would do well to remember that!
:rollseyes
I agree with coercion in conversion. That also explains my dislike of missionaries and proselytization in general. I don't do it myself and I won't tolerate it being done to me. The last set of mormons that showed up at my door were close to getting chased around my front lawn with the cordless hedgetrimmer.


I wouldn't worry about death for apostasy now in Islam. For the death sentence to be warranted, a fully muslim state with the authority of Shar'iah must carry out the sentence, and since none of those exist nowadays.....

In any case, Islam combines both religious and political values. It is the Law, it is the State, and it is the Religion. As such, apostasy is viewed in the same vein as treason in the west, and last I checked in america, the sentence for treason was still death. Unless, of course, you sell out to the Israelies, in which case you get a long sentence in a low security prison with a long succession of israeli politicos begging for your release :rollseyes


It is easy for us to say that 'people have free will' and that there is 'no compulsion in religion' - but it is not so easy to apply in practice, when many of us desire to see other people to come to or remain in what we perceive to be the 'true faith'.
Perhaps we should all search out hearts in this matter ...

peace

Is there anything similar in the new testament that says there is no compulsion in religion?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-27-2006, 05:46 AM
^^:thumbs_up
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M for Maliki
12-27-2006, 05:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
^Yeh thats right. Charity is HIGHLY encouraged, like really really encouraged.

Anyway, when you think about, the non-Muslims living in an Islamic country don't pay Zakat, they pay something else, so why should they be given from the zakat money?:?
By the same token, it's reported that Umar (RA) provided for a destitute christian out of the public treasury, sort of like a retirement fund. The christian, of course, had advised Umar that he had paid the Jizya faithfully. And so, he was rewarded.
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M for Maliki
12-27-2006, 05:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Does zakat only apply in Islamic countries? :?
How do Muslims in non-Islamic countries pay zakat, and who to? Is it similar to tithing in Christian churches?
No, zakat is the duty of muslims everywhere, regardless of whether or not they live in an "islamic state". If no islamic political authorities are available, then the funds are delivered to the local mosque.

Zakat is not paid by the non muslims. If non muslims are living under non muslims, or dhimmis (Dhimmitude! Eat your heart out, robert spencer!), they pay the Jizyah, which is significantly less than Zakat. Various interpretations have been given for Jizyah, I.E. "It's so they can practice their religions in our lands" or "It's for their upkeep of the state army since non-muslim post pubescent males don't have mandatory military terms" etc, but the latter bears the most weight, as we know that 'Umar (RA) returned the Jizyah of one northern arabian christian tribe whom he was unable to protect from christian advances. He also let a christian arab tribe pay zakat instead of jizyah when they claimed jizyah was "degrading".
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glo
12-27-2006, 06:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M for Maliki
I'm going to ignore the last part. Propaganda is by definition exaggeration or deceit, and I will have no part in it.

As for your verification, ask any missionary. I myself saw one in a thoub outside the ISNA convention in DC in 2002, extolling the benefits of "Submission to Isa" (astaghfirullah!). The Time magazine article I mentioned was their front cover article entitled "Should Christians Convert Muslims?", and I believe it was from 2004 or 2005.

Don't count anything out

That depends on what christianity you are talking about. Last I checked, there were about 33,000 different christian denominations totaling about 2.3 billion christians. Do you champion your version as correct and everyone else wrong?

I agree with coercion in conversion. That also explains my dislike of missionaries and proselytization in general. I don't do it myself and I won't tolerate it being done to me. The last set of mormons that showed up at my door were close to getting chased around my front lawn with the cordless hedgetrimmer.

I wouldn't worry about death for apostasy now in Islam. For the death sentence to be warranted, a fully muslim state with the authority of Shar'iah must carry out the sentence, and since none of those exist nowadays.....

In any case, Islam combines both religious and political values. It is the Law, it is the State, and it is the Religion. As such, apostasy is viewed in the same vein as treason in the west, and last I checked in america, the sentence for treason was still death. Unless, of course, you sell out to the Israelies, in which case you get a long sentence in a low security prison with a long succession of israeli politicos begging for your release :rollseyes
Thank you for your comments.
Like I said, I will try to do my own research into this ... but not at 6.00 in the morning ... :D

I am not saying that these practices don't happen (there are two million people in this world, who refer to themselves as Christians ... I cannot possibly speak for all of them ...! :rollseyes ) - I am more interested to find out how significant such worrying practices are in statistical terms. Christians should want to know, because such practices are harmful to our faith, and how we are viewed by others!

Is there anything similar in the new testament that says there is no compulsion in religion?
Not in that wording, that particular quote referred to Qu'ranic teachings. :)

But people do not have to believe.
Jesus told his disciples to leave people alone, if they were not willing to listen to their teachings.
"If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." (Luke 9:5)
Peace
Reply

KAding
12-27-2006, 11:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Hi Glo,

No it is not true that Muslims cannot give in charity to non-Muslims. There is a difference between zakat and charity. Zakat is like a tax payed by the Muslims has a specific use:

“As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa’ (poor), and Al‑Masaakeen (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allaah’s Cause (i.e. for Mujaahidoon — those fighting in a holy battle), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allaah. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[al-Tawbah 9:60]

Charity itself is different to zakat, and is not compulsory and can be given to anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim:

9 – It is not permissible to give zakaah to kuffaar and mushrikeen.

Sadaqah may be given to kuffaar and mushrikeen.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And they give food, in spite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the Miskeen (the poor), the orphan, and the captive”

[al-Insaan 76:8]

Al-Qurtubi said: In dar al-Islam (the Muslim lands), a captive could only be a mushrik.

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=9449&ln=eng

Hope that helps!
Thanks for clearing that up (you too glo!) :). I am not completely convinced it is very ethical yet (only giving social welfare money to your own kind), but it is certainly an improvement.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-27-2006, 11:59 AM
hi glo,

i attending the funeral of my grandmother recently in a c of e church in my home village. as i left i saw the Christian Aid magazines available for reading...

on it was a picture of an elderly pakistani man carrying a christian aid package on his back, i assume they were referring to the earthquake but the title was something like 'carrying the message of jesus to all parts of the world' or something like that.

christian aid is one of the bigger charities and yet is advertises in churches that it carries out missionary work in the muslim world, and yet denies it publically...

i have also heard simular such stories of christian aid lies and missionary work being carried out on condition of giving aid and there are so many more less reputable christian charities out there.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

glo
12-27-2006, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
hi glo,

i attending the funeral of my grandmother recently in a c of e church in my home village. as i left i saw the Christian Aid magazines available for reading...

on it was a picture of an elderly pakistani man carrying a christian aid package on his back, i assume they were referring to the earthquake but the title was something like 'carrying the message of jesus to all parts of the world' or something like that.

christian aid is one of the bigger charities and yet is advertises in churches that it carries out missionary work in the muslim world, and yet denies it publically...
Greetings, Abu Abdullah

Can I ask you if you read the article, or just made a judgement based on the picture and title?
I assume that 'carrying the message of Jesus' may refer to Jesus' instructions to care for the needy, the orphans and the widows, rather than spreading the gospel.

That is an assumption on my part (I have tried to find this article, but cannot come up with anything), and the reason I feel I can make that assumption is that I have found no evidence for evangelising, and I know ChristianAid to be a highly reputable charity.

You are right, there seems to be no mention of handing out leaflets or evangelising on their website - according to the charities commission (see http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/) charities are legally required to mention such things in their mission statement.
If they haven't that means either that they don't evangelise, or that they are dishonest about their intentions ... :rollseyes

I find the latter highly unlikely. You need to know that charities such as ChristianAid are heavily scrutinised, not only by the charities commission, but also other secular groups such as the humanist society, who strongly argue against any form of dawah/evangelising.

A very popular charity, called Operation Christmas child, came under much criticism from secular groups a few years ago, for including 'leaflets of religious content' with their gift boxes. This caused quite a stir and resulted in them losing much support from local groups, schools, the co-operative group etc.
So you see that mainstream Christian charities in the UK can not just go off and do what they like ... even if they wanted to!

I accept that sadly there are probably charities, which are less reputable, but I do not think Christian Aid (or other mainstream charities in the UK) are amongst them.

Despite all your misgivings, so you think charities such as ChristianAid do good and contribute to alleviating some of the suffering in the world?

Peace
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-27-2006, 06:40 PM
No one disagrees that charity is bad glo. Whats bad is taking advantage of it to preach your faith, when people haven't asked u too. So how can it be considered charity with good intention, if u also have the intention to preach your religion no one has asked you or when they're in their weakest state? Thats the point being made here.

I would never preach my religion no matter how correct i think it is because thats not what they need at the moment. All they need is help. Thats why in Islam, its better if you do charity quietly, cuz ur not showing off telling everyone "hey look im giving charity, compliment me please." When you keep it to urself and not show it off like that, your doing it for His sake, and cuz u were commanded too, not so people can see how good ur doing. It would mean your doing it to impress people, not God. Thats the difference.
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glo
12-27-2006, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tayyaba
No one disagrees that charity is bad glo. Whats bad is taking advantage of it to preach your faith, when people haven't asked u too. So how can it be considered charity with good intention, if u also have the intention to preach your religion no one has asked you or when they're in their weakest state? Thats the point being made here.
Greetings, Tayyaba
I understand the point very well.
If you have read my previous posts, you will know that I am in agreement with you. :)

I would never preach my religion no matter how correct i think it is because thats not what they need at the moment. All they need is help. Thats why in Islam, its better if you do charity quietly, cuz ur not showing off telling everyone "hey look im giving charity, compliment me please." When you keep it to urself and not show it off like that, your doing it for His sake, and cuz u were commanded too, not so people can see how good ur doing. It would mean your doing it to impress people, not God. Thats the difference.
This is a different matter to what we have discussed here previously, but I agree with this too! :)
Jesus himself said this on charitable giving:
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
(Matthew 6: 2-4)
Peace
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-28-2006, 08:27 AM
peace glo,

this wasnt the only instance, i have many personal reports from contacts in pakistan who reported that they were trying to spread christianity whilst there doing aid work.

as for operation christmas child, my friend was one of the key campaigners stopping them in his town and this led to many others knowing about their sneaky methods.

basically they would open up the shoebox of goodies you were sending overseas and then put in christian literature in the language of the country it was going to, and funny enough it was usually a muslim country... then send it off.

i also help run a islam information stall in my local city centre, time and again christian missionaries approach us and try to talk to us, even if you get them admit they are wrong on a matter i know they will come back the next week and speak to other guys on the stall with the same lies all over again and there are lies when they admit they are wrong arguments to one person and then use the same argument again the next week,

why do christian missionaries have to use window salesman tactics? if the product is good enough then surely it sells itself?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Abu Abdullah
Reply

FollowingAlhuda
12-28-2006, 08:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dore
Poor kids. May allah swt protect these little innocent kids insha allah. Its so hard for them to differentiate what these socalled helpers want. Similar exploits have been proven succesful in several poor countries.

LA hawla Wala Quata Ilaa Bilaah. Qadro Allah

Man Yahdihi Leh Fa Laa Modila Laah, Wa Man Yodlil Fa Laa Hadiya Laah!
Reply

glo
12-28-2006, 09:55 AM
Greetings, Abu Abdullah
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
peace glo,
as for operation christmas child, my friend was one of the key campaigners stopping them in his town and this led to many others knowing about their sneaky methods.

basically they would open up the shoebox of goodies you were sending overseas and then put in christian literature in the language of the country it was going to, and funny enough it was usually a muslim country... then send it off.
I know.

I loved the Operation Christmas child, because it was a wonderful way to teach my young children the principles of charity. I remember doing it one year, when they were still quite young. They made up one box each, and got to choose the things to put into it (Certain things were specified, such as toothbrushes, soap etc, but also small suitable toys. Interestingly enough it was specified at the time not to include anything that was of religious content!). I remember my children opening 'their' boxes again and again, just to imagine what it would be like for a child in need to receive their gift ... :statisfie

Since the scandal about including literature, we do not participate anymore ... but I am still looking for a charitable cause which has such an impact on my children!

If you look at their website, you will see that Operation Christmas child are quite open about including 'Gospel booklets in their own language' (quote from website) ...

i also help run a islam information stall in my local city centre, time and again christian missionaries approach us and try to talk to us, even if you get them admit they are wrong on a matter i know they will come back the next week and speak to other guys on the stall with the same lies all over again and there are lies when they admit they are wrong arguments to one person and then use the same argument again the next week,
Yes, ongoing evangelising/dawah is annoying. I find that too ...
(But please remember that those Christians perceive the information you give out as much as lies as you perceive theirs to be! It's circular argument, really. And if you do dawah, I guess that's the kind of thing you have to expect ... :rollseyes)

Back to the charity topic, I noticed that you did not answer my previous question:
Despite all your misgivings, so you think charities such as ChristianAid do good and contribute to alleviating some of the suffering in the world?
I pray there will be peace between your faiths, Abu Abdullah.
That is my greatest prayer! That people will stop wasting their energies on fighting and pickering with each other, respect each others faiths instead and focus their energies on more worthy causes!

Much more could be done about poverty, famines and diseases, if we all stopped wasting our precious time and resources on wars and fighting ... and I don't just mean in far-away countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq, but in our own communities too!

How about trying to get together with thos Christian missionaries who come to your dawah stall to tackle issues like local crime and drug abuse, instead of arguing with each other ...
It takes one to make the first step! It could be you! :D

My best wishes (to the rest of your family, too!) :)



Reply

Dawud_uk
12-28-2006, 10:13 AM
Greetings, Abu Abdullah

I know.

I loved the Operation Christmas child, because it was a wonderful way to teach my young children the principles of charity. I remember doing it one year, when they were still quite young. They made up one box each, and got to choose the things to put into it (Certain things were specified, such as toothbrushes, soap etc, but also small suitable toys. Interestingly enough it was specified at the time not to include anything that was of religious content!). I remember my children opening 'their' boxes again and again, just to imagine what it would be like for a child in need to receive their gift ... :statisfie

Since the scandal about including literature, we do not participate anymore ... but I am still looking for a charitable cause which has such an impact on my children!
peace glo,

i know plenty of poor families we try to help out personally, look at all the children who will be poorer this year due to the folding of the xmas saving schemes?

i know this might be like teaching grandma to such eggs, but try to install charity all year around, i know a lot of churches have addressed this problem but still in some towns and cities the poor are kicked out of their homeless shelters straight after xmas and right into the heart of winter.


If you look at their website, you will see that Operation Christmas child are quite open about including 'Gospel booklets in their own language' (quote from website) ...
but the point is they were not open with those they asked to help them were they? in fact they hid this from them and hid it from many schools in nottingham that this was their intention until it was pointed out to the schools independently.


Yes, ongoing evangelising/dawah is annoying. I find that too ...
(But please remember that those Christians perceive the information you give out as much as lies as you perceive theirs to be! It's circular argument, really. And if you do dawah, I guess that's the kind of thing you have to expect ... :rollseyes)
i am not talking of disagreements. i am talking about missionaries using a set line and argument like the moon god one for example. you bring them proof and show it is not true. they admit it is not true. sometimes the very next week they will try using the same argument to a different muslim who is on the stall that week.

that is just plain dishonest and lying would you not agree?

if i found a flaw in any argument i used then i would stop using it, i would not just stop using it on one person and then use it again on someone else like the flaw had never been pointed out to me otherwise i would be a liar.


Back to the charity topic, I noticed that you did not answer my previous question:

Despite all your misgivings, so you think charities such as ChristianAid do good and contribute to alleviating some of the suffering in the world?
they help with some human suffering, but at the expense of putting people into further spiritual peril. i know this seems harsh but they seem to be directing much of their effort at the muslim lands when there is desparate poverty and pure evil from lack of religious conviction in our own towns and cities here in the uk.


I pray there will be peace between your faiths, Abu Abdullah.
That is my greatest prayer! That people will stop wasting their energies on fighting and pickering with each other, respect each others faiths instead and focus their energies on more worthy causes!

Much more could be done about poverty, famines and diseases, if we all stopped wasting our precious time and resources on wars and fighting ... and I don't just mean in far-away countries such as Afghanistan and Iraq, but in our own communities too!
if you look through out history, muslims have been peaceful with those who are peaceful with us, and we are told in the Quran that of the people of the book we will find many of the christians to be closer to us than the jews.

this is my personal experience, although the jews might be closer to us docterine wise, from a position of their deeds i find myself closer to the thoughts and actions of the good christians in my area.


How about trying to get together with thos Christian missionaries who come to your dawah stall to tackle issues like local crime and drug abuse, instead of arguing with each other ...
It takes one to make the first step! It could be you! :D

My best wishes (to the rest of your family, too!) :)
they are liars, proven to me time and again. once when i confronted some of them they just gave me a smarmy smile. how can i trust such liars? i could never trust as they see the ends as justifying the means and that is a dangerous attitude.

however i am attending a local dialogue group with other muslims and christians - catholics, C of E, methodists, and even the local pink haired sufi christian deacon of sheffield cathedral who prays in the same manner as muslims, even having memorised the prayers in arabic but still believes in trinity... certainly an interesting though unusual character.

peace Glo,

Abu Abdullah
Reply

guyabano
12-28-2006, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Another way of looking at this.

Isn't it wonderfull that Allah(swt) is giving these children the opportunity to eventually return to Islam out of pure love and understanding, not just as a birthright. they are given the chance for a great reward as compensation for what they lost. Some if not all of them will return and could very well be the tools to streingthen the Ummah,
Agree ! When they get older, they still can choose, what path to go ! I see no problem on that !
Reply

ManchesterFolk
12-30-2006, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Agree ! When they get older, they still can choose, what path to go ! I see no problem on that !
They might be to Christianized by then, lol. Pretty sad, I hate missionaries from Islam and Christianity.
Reply

Yaqub Sulayman
12-30-2006, 12:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ManchesterFolk
They might be to Christianized by then, lol. Pretty sad, I hate missionaries from Islam and Christianity.
At least you dont get Muslims knocking on your door shoving you the Quran :D
Reply

arabiyyah
12-30-2006, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yaqub Sulayman
At least you dont get Muslims knocking on your door shoving you the Quran :D
christians do that?:exhausted
Reply

KAding
12-30-2006, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yaqub Sulayman
At least you dont get Muslims knocking on your door shoving you the Quran :D
A shame really. I quite enjoyed being preached to by missionaries. I always invite in the Jehova's witnesses and they then explain their views. It's all very interesting, and amusing :).
Reply

Yaqub Sulayman
12-30-2006, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
A shame really. I quite enjoyed being preached to by missionaries. I always invite in the Jehova's witnesses and they then explain their views. It's all very interesting, and amusing :).
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EFG1OGUE2ls
Reply

arabiyyah
12-30-2006, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yaqub Sulayman
:D :D :D lol, were those brothers or no? if they were those are the coolest muslim brothers. :D :statisfie
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
12-30-2006, 05:01 AM
^^LOL! that video is hilarious ROFL.
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-30-2006, 10:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
A shame really. I quite enjoyed being preached to by missionaries. I always invite in the Jehova's witnesses and they then explain their views. It's all very interesting, and amusing :).
i am on their boycott list, they dont come see me anymore...
Reply

SilentObserver
12-30-2006, 10:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dawud_uk
i am on their boycott list, they dont come see me anymore...
Uh, me too. At 2 seperate home addresses. The first time I puked on their feet.+o( :rollseyes
Reply

Dawud_uk
12-30-2006, 10:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SilentObserver
Uh, me too. At 2 seperate home addresses. The first time I puked on their feet.+o( :rollseyes
hmm i wouldnt go that far but i guess that can just produce a reaction in people...

i work on a dawah stall, we dont approach people but if they come up and talk to us then that is good. even have a big banner saying discover islam.

my favourite in past few weeks was the mormon missionary... got him to promise to read the Quran and was admitting that Islam seemed to be true and right and would go away and study it more along with his own faith.

Abu Abdullah
Reply

SilentObserver
12-30-2006, 10:26 AM
The puking was an accident. I can't just vomit at will. That could come in handy though.
Reply

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