Sikhism

[Bittersteel]

:sl:

---

curious.

:sl:

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
really not bothered reading unneccesary things
wasalam

[Bittersteel]

I believe Guru Nanak had Muslim teachers.

:sl:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
No quoting anti-islamic articles. If you have any specific questions we'll discuss them inshaa'Allah.

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[ishkabab]

may Allah Tala put hadaiyath on all of them Ameen!!

[Hajar]

:sl:

I heard a story about when Sikhs people first came to saudi arabia, the people there thougt that they were muslims aswell.. because they also grow beards. So they strated to help them in getting them in the good places for work.. but later on they started to think because they never saw those men comming to the mosques on Juma :confused:
so from then they knew they werent muslim.....

pretty weird huh

:w:

[- Qatada -]

i heard that guru nanak was a muslim but he used to live in the wild so he never used to shave his hair and stuff. lol and he believed in one god and that.. but the other 10 gurus after him focused more on copying how the guy dressed up like and how he acted - eg. long beard, a knife to hunt and protect etc. - instead of focusing on what he did/believed spirtitually and mentally.


Allah (swt) knows best.


wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

[Hajar]

:sl:

yeah I heard also that they believe in the Prophet Muhammad (sws).. that its written is some of their books but then the prophet has an other name well, basicly its the same name only in their language. And that he is the last prophet to come..
Like this was already mention in their books, before the time of the prophet. so like their book predict the comming of the prophet :confused:

:w:

[ishkabab]

sikhism is a made up new so called religion....it waz created in da Sikh Period: 1762-1849 A.D.
The Sikhs established their empire in the Punjab after the death of the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir in 1707. With the death of Aurangzeb the country saw a series of rapid governmental changes that stressed it in to the depths of anarchy.


-----

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
We need to make sure that we remain respectful of all religions even if we disagree with them. Islam does not permit us to abuse and insult other religions, lest they respond in a similar manner towards us.
:w:

[Idris]

That's FACT 4 u :brother:

[ishkabab]

true my mistake ........i shouldnt have said that........we r all creations of Allah Tala........Ameen

[Mohsin]

:sl:

yeah I heard also that they believe in the Prophet Muhammad (sws).. that its written is some of their books but then the prophet has an other name well, basicly its the same name only in their language. And that he is the last prophet to come..
Like this was already mention in their books, before the time of the prophet. so like their book predict the comming of the prophet :confused:

:w:

I think your confused, sikhism came after Islam.I think your on about Hindusim where there are prophecies of the prophet PBUH

[ishkabab]

yeh rite u must be confused ...

[- Qatada -]

yeh.. but i heard it too - that the guru nanak was a muslim and he worshipped one god. but the people imitated his actions and dress code instead of focusing on the beliefs that he had.. but yeh u are right that it was mentioned in the hindu scriptures about our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his family) but under a different name. the same even applies in the persian scriptures:

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...arsi_scrip.htm

they even mentioned in the buddhist scriptures too!

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...scriptures.htm

homepage to the site:

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...e_upon_him.htm

i think nearly all scriptures must have had it mentioned (because the people who had the original scriptures were probably really pious - and every nation who is told about islam will get judged) but the people must have changed their scriptures to suit their own needs.

Allah u a'lam

wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

[Bass]

Yes Akhee
Just like da christians

[Muezzin]

Most of the Sikhs I know are pretty cool, funny guys, actually.

[Taalib-e-'Ilm]

salam, from wot i know, a teacher who studied sikhism was tellin us that gurunanak was from a hindu family but used to work with muslims, and he liked the muslims more than he liked the hindus, to an extent that he went and performed hajj... i dunno if this bit was true.

[imran_c]

as-salam alaykum wara matulha dear beloved brothers and sisters

ive done dawah and sikhs for 2 years alhumdolilha so ill help with people who dont understand about sikhisma nd how to do dawa on sikhism for muslism :coolious:

The Gurus preached Sikh religion strictly as monotheistic- requiring belief in none other than One Supreme Being. Sikhs believe that all religions believe in the same God by different name. Hence, it is not religion that will save a person but his devotion towards the Supreme Being. In other important issue in Sikhism is the belief that God cannot take human form.



Ok basically this is was Sikhs believe now this was taken forma Sikh site. Ok now lets analyze this text. Gurus preached to belive in one god and in the time of guru nanak there were muslims therefore he was preaching what islam already had said. Sikhs also belive all religions are the same god but different name. ok this is something I don’t get now lets take the Hindu religion they belive in many gods some same 3 some say 300 and some say 3000 now how can u say that 1+1+1=1 now that makes now sense and how can u also same 1 god that hindus belive will be the same as the 2nd god hindus belive.??? Also Sikhs bleive you must devoate ur self to God, but what does islam mean submission to god which muslim already belive. So why would you bring the same relign but different name and different stuff added. Muslim belive god cant take human form so again why would Sikhs preach same things islam preaches. I belive if guru nanak had preached such stuff he did it to bring peace between the muslims and hindus like the neutral people basically.





Now this is another point taken from sikh websites ive looked at:

Sikh religion was founded by Guru Nanak in the form of ten Gurus or Masters (1469 - 1708) in India. The tenth Master, Gobind Singh, ended the personal Guruship and proclaimed Guru Guranth Sahib (The Holy Scripture) as the eternal spiritual guide.



Now how can a person be a founder of a religion now islam believes that allah was the founder of islam as it says : 2:208 O ye who believe! Enter into islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy. Also I belive that 1469 – 1708 were all the years of the guru so basically from 1469 first guru till 1708 the last guru. Now this point is very confusing if Nanak was the founder of Sikhism what was before Sikhism and if it was hindusim or islam or even chiristianity then why did god confuse you to change religion? However if you say no Sikhism was the religion so were people walking blanklessly with all wrong religions?? Also you belive that Granth sahib was the HOLY SCRIPTURE sent to Guru Gobin Singh now was Holy Scripture was before that??? Because muslims belive that there were many holy scripture which was sent and all were lost or changed and the quran was the last and has not been changed. LSO GURU Granth Shaib was not a divine revelation but a hymns which people wrote becuasase even muslims and hindus wrote hymns which were added in granth sahib.



here is another thign guru mean teacher and sikhg means learner so how can learner be a religon as islam mean submission to god so that makes sense as the first person was a muslim adam(a.s) but for sikhism the first SIKH was guru nanak, but i recall that guru nanak or teacher nanak you call him a prophet however he never did say that sikh is the rite religon he sed he is never muslim or hindu. so i can u then wsay he was a sikh and why would a person come to muslims and hindus and say the same thing that there is one god if muslims already belive in one god??



you recited these verses:
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.
Allah is hidden in every heart; reflect upon this in your mind.



now if you analize these verse you see thta :
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings

now this indicated that you do belive in the creation story how the world was created islamic prespective and also you belive everyone is mortal now this contradicts you recarnation theory why? becuase in theory u can become then immortal why becuase lets take this as an example im a waky person i kill loads of ppl i get recarnated to a snake then it goes up like snake to big lizard and then hopefully after many years human then i blow ppl again and thne the cycle keeps going now that contradictiing ur verse.



Now also i now its says :


Ok also i need to ask if all religon are rite then are going against the sikhism belief in beliving in one god (Wah he Guru) as hindus belive many gods and sikhs belive in one god?
Page 78, Line 13 -- Guru Ram Das
Akwl mUriq vru pwieAw AibnwsI nw kdy mrY n jwieAw ]
I have obtained my Husband Lord, the Akaal Moorat, the Undying Form. He is Imperishable; He shall never die, and He shall never ever leave.


does this mean that sikhs belive god was married???SINGH if it is is possible can i have ur msn so we can debate off the forum as well as on the forum

as-salam alaykum i have done many debates with sikhs in my area and alhumdolilha 2 have said the shadah maishallah but then the 2 went back to there orignal ways but ill show you how you have a debate with a sikh using this topic:

Now must sikhs would say to you the same that muslims belive that god lives in the kabah according to MUSLIMS.
this is from the granth shaib:

If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?


now thats a funny one because hey you mite say muslims belive in that but its because thats hpow theyve been brougt up or understanded it. Ok now as i did i went in the quran in seearch for the House Of God and i could not find a single place were it say in the Holy Quran that makkah or a mosue is the house of god.

But i did incounter something:

3:96 The first house (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:





Inna awwala baytin wudiAAa linnasi lallathee bibakkata mubarakan wahudan lilAAalameen
إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ


and also i encountered another surah :

22:26 Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) house, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My house for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).


Waith bawwana liibraheema makana albayti an la tushrik bee shayan watahhir baytiya littaifeena walqaimeena warrukkaAAi assujood
وَإِذْ بَوَّأْنَا لِإِبْرَاهِيمَ مَكَانَ الْبَيْتِ أَن لَّا تُشْرِكْ بِي شَيْئًا وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِيَ لِلطَّائِفِينَ وَالْقَائِمِينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجُودِ

Therefore this means that the kabah and the mosque are the houses of worship.


il post some more tommoroow inshallah

[Mohsin]

Jazakallah khair for the post brother. I am also in contact currently with a sikh revert and have been emailing him with questions and tips on how to give da'wah to sikhs, it seems quite hard compared to giving dawah to people of other faiths. As soon as he's emailed me i will inshallah be putting up information

In addition to your post, i would also like to add that they don't eat helal meat, so how can they say we believe all religions are right when they say it is bad to kill animals in an islamic way, are they saying God was wrong and changed his mind?
Also they admitt Guru Nanek went on Hajj. This proves the theory of many islamic scholars of today that Guru Nanek was himself a muslim, apparently in the Guru Granth Sahib he's in a musjid and does adhan, but not sure on this.
But if sikhs still say Naneks not a muslim just because he went on hajj, then how is it possible for him to have gone to mecca, since only muslims are allowed inside, implieing he must have lied to get inside, which is unlike of a prophet
But yeah i agree i don't understand what they believe, bcos they can't possibly believe all faiths are right since there would be many contradictions, can there be a son of god and no son of god at the same time? Can there be heaven/hell and reincarnation at the same time? Can there be more than one god and one god at the same time, can there be a god and no god at the same time even?
So it must mean they believe only their faith is right, but then what about before Guru Nanek came along, who provided guidance then, why didn't the gurus mention it, because it can't have been prophets like Abraham jesus Moses etc PBUT because they talk a religion different to that of Sikhism, they were circumcised didn't eat pork, eat lawful meat, believed in heaven/hell
To this day no Sikh has been able to answer this to me. One sikh said to me one time that all religions came for a particular region and for a particular culture, all from God. But then why was sikhism brought? Because in india there was already Hinduism Christianity Buddhism and Islam, so was there really a need for another scripture, why not bring a new religion to somewhere like america or australia?
Neways i'll keep you posted inshallah with updates on my email conversations with a ex-sikh revert

[imran_c]

As-salam alaykum wara matulha dear beloved brotthers and sisters

Alhu eyku msIiq bsqu hY Avru mulKu iksu kyrw ]

alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||

If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?



This is from the granth shiab:




Now were did they get that allah subhan wala tala lives in a mosque. I will give a Quran recitation which tackles what the granth sahib says:



50:16 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

Walaqad khalaqna alinsana wanaAAlamu ma tuwaswisu bihi nafsuhu wanahnu aqrabu ilayhi min habli alwareed


وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ وَنَعْلَمُ مَا تُوَسْوِسُ بِهِ نَفْسُهُ وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ





Now this shows that Allah subhan wala tala is closer than us that aour jugular vein thus allah is everywhere. Also when the Sikhs say that to whom does the rest of the world belong to. This sura inidicate that Allah is the owner of the world/worlds:

1:2 Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds;

Alhamdu lillahi rabbi alAAalameen


الْحَمْدُ للّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

Also:
32:2 (This is) the Revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt,- from the Lord of the Worlds.

Tanzeelu alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameen


تَنزِيلُ الْكِتَابِ لَا رَيْبَ فِيهِ مِن رَّبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ


So now if we analyze what we have recited is that Allah subhan wala tala does not live in the mosque, and that allah is the owner of the worlds.



Now if the granth sahib was a Devine revelation then obviously it would have had right facts and not false accusations.





Now lets go on further in to the granth sahib:




ihMdU mUriq nwm invwsI duh mih qqu n hyrw ]1]

hi(n)dhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thath n haeraa ||1||

According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||



Now if it was a devine revaltion this god wouldn’t use the word as According.

This is one fact that muslims can use againt the Sikhs:

dKn dyis hrI kw bwsw piCim Alh mukwmw ]

dhakhan dhaes haree kaa baasaa pashhim aleh mukaamaa ||

The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west.





Where was it in the quran which says that Allah subhan wala tala lives in the west??
why would allah subhanwala tala need something? Allah does not need anything and everything need allah. Allah subhanwala tala does not live in the west as allah is the creator of the worlds. Also where does it says in the quran or in any hadith that allah subhan wala tala lives in the west?



bRhmn igAws krih caubIsw kwjI mh rmjwnw ]

brehaman giaas karehi choubeesaa kaajee meh ramajaanaa ||

The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan.



Another main factor which Sikhs get wrong is:




“Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan.”

Yes but also Muslims believe that there are 4 main months which you can fast



This last one finally shows that sikh belive in a child of god:



kbIru pUMgrw rwm Alh kw sB gur pIr hmwry ]5]

kabeer poo(n)garaa raam aleh kaa sabh gur peer hamaarae ||5||

Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

as i have shown sikhs belive that god had a wife and now a child

[imran_c]

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this is from the guru granth shaib so brother and sister be prepared with quran ayahs and hadiths to tackle each one of these
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lets work together to tackle each one!!!!
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there are some that i have tackled from the top as shown
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Alhu eyku msIiq bsqu hY Avru mulKu iksu kyrw ]
alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

ihMdU mUriq nwm invwsI duh mih qqu n hyrw ]1]
hi(n)dhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thath n haeraa ||1||
According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||

Alh rwm jIvau qyry nweI ]
aleh raam jeevo thaerae naaee ||
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

qU kir imhrwmiq sweI ]1] rhwau ]
thoo kar miharaamath saaee ||1|| rehaao ||
Please show mercy to me, O Master. ||1||Pause||

dKn dyis hrI kw bwsw piCim Alh mukwmw ]
dhakhan dhaes haree kaa baasaa pashhim aleh mukaamaa ||
The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west.

idl mih Koij idlY idil Kojhu eyhI Taur mukwmw ]2]
dhil mehi khoj dhilai dhil khojahu eaehee t(h)our mukaamaa ||2||
So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. ||2||

bRhmn igAws krih caubIsw kwjI mh rmjwnw ]
brehaman giaas karehi choubeesaa kaajee meh ramajaanaa ||
The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan.

igAwrh mws pws kY rwKy eykY mwih inDwnw ]3]
giaareh maas paas kai raakhae eaekai maahi nidhhaanaa ||3||
The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. ||3||

khw aufIsy mjnu kIAw ikAw msIiq isru nWeyN ]
kehaa ouddeesae majan keeaa kiaa maseeth sir naa(n)eae(n) ||
What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque?

idl mih kptu invwj gujwrY ikAw hj kwbY jWeyN ]4]
dhil mehi kapatt nivaaj gujaarai kiaa haj kaabai jaa(n)eae(n) ||4||
If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? ||4||

eyqy Aaurq mrdw swjy ey sB rUp qum@wry ]
eaethae aourath maradhaa saajae eae sabh roop thumhaarae ||
You fashioned all these men and women, Lord. All these are Your Forms.

kbIru pUMgrw rwm Alh kw sB gur pIr hmwry ]5]
kabeer poo(n)garaa raam aleh kaa sabh gur peer hamaarae ||5||
Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

khqu kbIru sunhu nr nrvY prhu eyk kI srnw ]
kehath kabeer sunahu nar naravai parahu eaek kee saranaa ||
Says Kabeer, listen, O men and women: seek the Sanctuary of the One.

kyvl nwmu jphu ry pRwnI qb hI inhcY qrnw ]6]2]
kaeval naam japahu rae praanee thab hee nihachai tharanaa ||6||2||
Chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, O mortals, and you shall surely be carried across. ||6||2||

[Mohsin]

---

Salam bro, could ou explain the references you have given, for example what does ||6||2|| mean?
And who is Kabeer?

[- Qatada -]

---

Salam bro, could ou explain the references you have given, for example what does ||6||2|| mean?
And who is Kabeer?

wa alykum asalam warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

the bro is referring to the ayah's / verses in the qur'an. so whenever someone mentions two numbers (represented from the qur'an) look at it this way:

an example:

01:01 = the first number will represent the chapter in the qur'an, and the second number will represent the number of the ayah / verse.

therefore - 01:01 will represent the first chapter (which is surah fatiha) and the second number will represent the first ayah / verse. = "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. "


in total there are 114 chapters / surah's in the qur'an, and the amount of ayah's / verses differ in every surah / chapter.


if you still dont understand what it means, please ask and we'll try to help out further insha Allaah. jazak Allaah khayr. by the way its really good masha Allaah that you want to learn more.

[imran_c]

as-salam alaykum brothers and sisters WRONG"!!!!!

This is from the granth shaib OK

Alhu eyku msIiq bsqu hY Avru mulKu iksu kyrw ]
alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

ihMdU mUriq nwm invwsI duh mih qqu n hyrw ]1]
hi(n)dhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thath n haeraa ||1||
According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||

Alh rwm jIvau qyry nweI ]
aleh raam jeevo thaerae naaee ||
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

qU kir imhrwmiq sweI ]1] rhwau ]
thoo kar miharaamath saaee ||1|| rehaao ||
Please show mercy to me, O Master. ||1||Pause||

dKn dyis hrI kw bwsw piCim Alh mukwmw ]
dhakhan dhaes haree kaa baasaa pashhim aleh mukaamaa ||
The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west.

idl mih Koij idlY idil Kojhu eyhI Taur mukwmw ]2]
dhil mehi khoj dhilai dhil khojahu eaehee t(h)our mukaamaa ||2||
So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. ||2||

bRhmn igAws krih caubIsw kwjI mh rmjwnw ]
brehaman giaas karehi choubeesaa kaajee meh ramajaanaa ||
The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan.

igAwrh mws pws kY rwKy eykY mwih inDwnw ]3]
giaareh maas paas kai raakhae eaekai maahi nidhhaanaa ||3||
The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. ||3||

khw aufIsy mjnu kIAw ikAw msIiq isru nWeyN ]
kehaa ouddeesae majan keeaa kiaa maseeth sir naa(n)eae(n) ||
What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque?

idl mih kptu invwj gujwrY ikAw hj kwbY jWeyN ]4]
dhil mehi kapatt nivaaj gujaarai kiaa haj kaabai jaa(n)eae(n) ||4||
If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? ||4||

eyqy Aaurq mrdw swjy ey sB rUp qum@wry ]
eaethae aourath maradhaa saajae eae sabh roop thumhaarae ||
You fashioned all these men and women, Lord. All these are Your Forms.

kbIru pUMgrw rwm Alh kw sB gur pIr hmwry ]5]
kabeer poo(n)garaa raam aleh kaa sabh gur peer hamaarae ||5||
Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

khqu kbIru sunhu nr nrvY prhu eyk kI srnw ]
kehath kabeer sunahu nar naravai parahu eaek kee saranaa ||
Says Kabeer, listen, O men and women: seek the Sanctuary of the One.

kyvl nwmu jphu ry pRwnI qb hI inhcY qrnw ]6]2]
kaeval naam japahu rae praanee thab hee nihachai tharanaa ||6||2||
Chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, O mortals, and you shall surely be carried across. ||6||2||

ok Kabeer was an indian saint

now according the the granth this indicited that kabeer was the child of god

[imran_c]

the part were kabeer is mention is form Raag Prabhaatee - Part 023
http://www.ishwar.com/sikhism/holy_g...art34_023.html

[imran_c]

can people inshallah get quran reciation which shows that these verse from the GRANTH have false accusations

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
This will be brief but I hope it helps, inshaa'Allah.

Alhu eyku msIiq bsqu hY Avru mulKu iksu kyrw ]
alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||
If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

Allah swt does not live in the Mosques, indeed the whole earth belongs to Allah swt (Qur'an 39:10). But the Mosques are places dedicated to the worship of Allah swt. As a symbol of devotion, we dedicate places where people do nothing except His ibaadah.

ihMdU mUriq nwm invwsI duh mih qqu n hyrw ]1]
hi(n)dhoo moorath naam nivaasee dhuh mehi thath n haeraa ||1||
According to the Hindus, the Lord's Name abides in the idol, but there is no truth in either of these claims. ||1||

Alh rwm jIvau qyry nweI ]
aleh raam jeevo thaerae naaee ||
O Allah, O Raam, I live by Your Name.

qU kir imhrwmiq sweI ]1] rhwau ]
thoo kar miharaamath saaee ||1|| rehaao ||
Please show mercy to me, O Master. ||1||Pause||

No comment necessary.

dKn dyis hrI kw bwsw piCim Alh mukwmw ]
dhakhan dhaes haree kaa baasaa pashhim aleh mukaamaa ||
The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west.

False.
73:9 (He is) Lord of the East and the West: there is no god but He: take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs.

idl mih Koij idlY idil Kojhu eyhI Taur mukwmw ]2]
dhil mehi khoj dhilai dhil khojahu eaehee t(h)our mukaamaa ||2||
So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives. ||2||

Nonsense.

bRhmn igAws krih caubIsw kwjI mh rmjwnw ]
brehaman giaas karehi choubeesaa kaajee meh ramajaanaa ||
The Brahmins observe twenty-four fasts during the year, and the Muslims fast during the month of Ramadaan.

igAwrh mws pws kY rwKy eykY mwih inDwnw ]3]
giaareh maas paas kai raakhae eaekai maahi nidhhaanaa ||3||
The Muslims set aside eleven months, and claim that the treasure is only in the one month. ||3||

False. That one month is a period in which we train specifically, in order to improve ourselves throughout the rest of the year.

khw aufIsy mjnu kIAw ikAw msIiq isru nWeyN ]
kehaa ouddeesae majan keeaa kiaa maseeth sir naa(n)eae(n) ||
What is the use of bathing at Orissa? Why do the Muslims bow their heads in the mosque?

Muslims bow their heads out of servitude to Allah swt.

idl mih kptu invwj gujwrY ikAw hj kwbY jWeyN ]4]
dhil mehi kapatt nivaaj gujaarai kiaa haj kaabai jaa(n)eae(n) ||4||
If someone has deception in his heart, what good is it for him to utter prayers? And what good is it for him to go on pilgrimage to Mecca? ||4||

This is why the Prophet saws said "There are some who stand all night in prayer and obtain nothing from it but lack of sleep", and "Actions are but by their intentions".

The rest has nothing that needs a response.
:w:

[imran_c]

as-salam alaykum wara matulha dear beloved brother

maishallah now we can complie our works to together and inshallah make a book inshallah the first LI book

[edil]

what in the world is sikhism?????????

[imran_c]

:sl: they call themselve people who belive in one god and belive in equality

They also say that the guru grnath shaib is something which sikhs belive is there holy book !!! but there holy book isnt a devine revalastion because sikhs have already admitted that. But somepeople say its parts of islam and hindusim put to gether

thats bout it

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

maishallah now we can complie our works to together and inshallah make a book inshallah the first LI book

:sl: Br. Imran, :)
If you compile your notes on Sikhism together into an article, inshaa'Allah we could post it on the website.

:w:

[Muezzin]

what in the world is sikhism?????????

Behold the Sikh!

[Heera Singh]

Salam..

My name is Heera Singh.. i'm a Sikh... i was told about this website from sum1 else who was a lil hurt by some of the things said on this thread... i've scrolled through some of the threads on this forum, although many of them seem nice, I would have to say some of the thoughts/feelings of Sikhism that some people portray on this thread are false... I will try to my fullest to give the Truth of what Sikhism is, and what it believes etc... What I ask of all of you is to please post ur questions comments with respect, so there isn't any ruckus for no reason... I would be happy to answer any questions, whether it be by PM or through this thread...

So.. i'll begin with asking those who have questions... to please post one by one.. so I may answer them accordingly (to the best of my ability)...

One thing to remember, we are ALL brothers and sisters, sons and daughters of GOD.. God is One... whether you refer to him as Allah, Vaheguru, God or nething else...

please forgive me if i've offended anybody...

take care...

[Heera Singh]

Salam..

First Things First... Sree Guru Nanak Dev Jee was NOT Muslim.. He was born into a Hindu family in Talwandi, now called Nankana Sahib, a village located near the city of Lahore in present-day Pakistan... Guru Nanak Dev Jee was the 'founder' of Sikhism... and yes He believed in the concept of 'One God'; in fact the first words in the Sree Guru Granth Sahib (the Sikh holy scriptures) is 'Ek Oankar'... meaning 'God is One'...

In reply to one of the above posts who said 'he had muslim friends, his best friend was muslim etc....' ... you have to look at the demographics of where he lived and spent most of his years. He spent most of his years in Muslim dominated regions, where probably more then 90% of the people were Muslim... Sree Guru Nanak Dev made four great journeys, traveling to all parts of India, and into Tibet and Arabia and visiting Mecca and Baghdad... on these journeys he met the Kabir (who i'm guessing you were referring to as his 'best friend'), who spent his years after that travelling with Guru Nanak Dev Jee...

One thing everybody must know, is that Guru Nanak did not tell people to follow HIM, he told people to be true to themselves... Wherever he went, Guru Nanak Dev spoke out against empty religious rituals; pilgrimages; the caste system; the practise of Sati, wherein a widow immolates herself on their husband's funeral pyre; and other such things.... Once when Guru Nanak was asked which religion, Hinduism or Islam was the true path to God, Guru Nanak replied that the true way to attain God was to worship Him who is eternal and contained in the whole Universe...

So... long story short, Guru Nanak Dev Jee was neither Muslim, nor Hindu... from a young age, he started to speak the Sikh way of life...

I hope this clears up a lot of misconceptions... :)

Any other questions??

God Bless!

[Mohsin]

Hi Heera Singh

I have a sikh friend, who is constantly contradicting himself

One minute he admits that muslims wrote in guru granth sahib, then also admits that all religions are right. Then later totally contradicts himself by attacking islamic teachings like polygamy and like you have said Hajj

My questions are

1) Do Sikhs believe all religions are right?

2) Do Sikhs believe in prophets before Guru Nanek

3) Why have non-sikhs written in Guru Granth Sahib



Also i'd like to point out that the gurus did try and invite others to sikhism, and wanted people to convert, because they thought it was the one true path.

Also you strangely say

Wherever he went, Guru Nanak Dev spoke out against empty religious rituals; pilgrimages

But yet Guru Nanek did Hajj, which is a pilgrimage, which proves he was a muslim. All sikhs unanimously admit he performed hajj, my question is why would he do it if he wasn't a muslim? Why go through all that if it was all useless as you say. Also i'd like to point out something to you that i noticed, if he had done hajj, the only way for him to have entered Mecca/medina was by saying he was a muslim, ie he would have had to lie

By the way it's good a sikh is on here. We've been crying out for some. Soo many questions, i'm sure there are answers to the questions i've posted, it'll just e good to finally receive some. Hopefully we can have good dialogue and learn aout each other's religions

[Heera Singh]

Salam...

Brother Moss, I thank you for welcoming me with open arms, and the respect you have given. :) .. all your questions are valid, and have been asked by many, so I will answer them one by one (to the best of my ability)... I will answer your questions 1 per post, since each post will be fairly lengthy, hehe...

1) Do Sikhs believe all religions are right?

Each religion has suggestions, which are to be followed, in order to grow spiritually and to realize god. Most religions, generally, claim their way is the way to God. For example, ask many Christians... their answer will be The One and Only Way..is through Jesus...If you believe in any others.. no way you will be saved. Same for many Muslims and the Koran... Prophet Mohammed is the One and Last Prophet...If you don’t believe in the Prophet..no way to be saved.

Gurbani (in the form of Sree Guru Granth Sahib) directs us towards ultimate reality, towards ultimate truth. There is no duality about the realization of God or the way to God. Duality is there to live in this world at each step. Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhism's Holiest collection of gurbani contains Banis from Muslims, Hindus and many others who were not sikhs. This is a first in World History..No holy texts of any religion contain even one line from any other religion...the Sikh religious text contains many pages of such writings of authors from other religions... this can be seen to show the 'oneness' of God, meaning God is ONE regardless of religion....

Sikhism regards all as brothers..all as Creations of the Same God..in Gurbani Allah, Raam, Krishan, Gobind, Haree, Raam, all refer to the same spiritual force, the same supreme power, the same Akal Purakh, Waheguru, God.

Gurbani and the Gurus did not seek to convert anyone. In fact Gurbani contains so many passages addressed to Hindus..Be a Good and Steadfast Hindu... to a Muslim..Be a Good Muslim. It can be said same about a Christian..be a good Christian and steadfast in your own religion...if that’s what leads you to God.

Then Why Sikhism..why be a Sikh ? Because only Sikhism/Gurmat has the Concept of Naam Japp [meditating on the gurbani/shabad/word revealed to gurus about the concept of God]. Naam is Supreme in Sikhism...Sikhism doesn't really believe in certain 'rituals' as we see it... i.e. bathing at teeraths/pilgrimages, fasts, praying etc which are done as Religious duties. If there is No Naam in all these then they are just empty rituals...valueless.

The concept of Naam is unique to Sikhism. No other religion stresses this as much. And Most important of all Naam assures Merger with Waheguru....merger of atma (soul) with parmatma (supreme soul/God)..Jeewan Muktee (liberated while still alive)... In Sikhism there is no heaven/no hell per se. All those are on this earth. It can be seen as a metaphor for the state that your mind is.... One who's mind is completely connected to God will be in Sach Khand (the realm of truth -- where GOD abides)...

In the Sikh Scriptures there is basically one Tuk (line) which basically answers this question for all:
"sarb dharam meh srayst dharam, har ko naam jap nirmal karam"
which.. basically means... you can be Sikh, Christian, Muslim, Hindu etc... you can have the Sree Guru Granth Sahib memorized... the Vedas memorized.. the Koran memorized etc... but if you don't meditate on the name of the lord, then ur wasting your time... The name of the Lord is the HIGHEST religion!

Look at it this way... an 'example'... God is the Peak of the Highest Mountain... but there are MANY different ways to get to that peak.. i.e. many different spiritual paths... :)

[Mohsin]

Salam Bro Jazakallah kahirun (May Allah reward you with good) for reply

Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhism's Holiest collection of gurbani contains Banis from Muslims, Hindus and many others who were not sikhs. This is a first in World History..No holy texts of any religion contain even one line from any other religion...the Sikh religious text contains many pages of such writings of authors from other religions...

I find it difficult to see how you consider this to be a good thing. It proves Guru Granth Sahib is not the word of God. If it was it wouldn't contain the words of other books
Firstly these different religious texts contain contradicting views, more than one view on a single issue can't be right. How is it that there can be a heaven and a hell, and reincarnation at the same time? How can Jesus be Son of God, and not Son of God at the same time? How can there be one god, and not one god at the same time? It implies either God is confused and contradicting himself, or he is lieing, and no way can any God contain any of these human qualities
Secondly these texts aren't all from god, some of them are written by humans, and historians. All muslims unanimously agree that the whole Qur'an is the word of God, but a lot of priests admit bible has been changed, same with rabbis admitting Torah has changed, and also Hindu opundits admit their scriptures have changed, so in essence a lot of these are word of men, who furthermore are attriuting these words wrongly to God, therefore they are liars, so you may have texts and words written liars in your Guru granth Sahib
Thirdly my idea of guidance is clearly different from yours. I believe God created us, he knows whats best for us, he knows our ins and outs. So he created us for a purpose, ut he's going to create us with guidance, through prophets (According to islam anyway, through Gurus for you)and when the last prophet has been sent then we have the last revelation, unaltered word of god. We have the Qur'an, which we believe is unchanged, and you believe after the last Guru Gobind Singh now it's the Granth Sahib, which confusingly you admit is not word of god. either way it is the last revelation to us so should be perfect in guidance in every way. we believe ours is all from god, and his laws are perfect, since he knows whats best for us. But your guidance comes from fellow men, who have no divine qualities and are prone to error, how can you have guidance from these people

this can be seen to show the 'oneness' of God, meaning God is ONE regardless of religion....

I understand where you are coming from with your point here, but your point to me implies there is more than religion, since there are more than one way to God

Sikhism regards all as brothers..all as Creations of the Same God..in Gurbani Allah, Raam, Krishan, Gobind, Haree, Raam, all refer to the same spiritual force, the same supreme power, the same Akal Purakh, Waheguru, God.

Same here, no matter what name you give him, no matter how little or how muchy you pray to him, he is still god, he is still the greatest, but to God elong only beautiful elloquent names

Gurbani and the Gurus did not seek to convert anyone.

Well why did then Guru Nanek travel accross the himalayas and stuff to preach to lost people. He thought other ways were not right so he wanted them to follow the true path then isn't it?

In fact Gurbani contains so many passages addressed to Hindus..Be a Good and Steadfast Hindu... to a Muslim..Be a Good Muslim.

Really? I admit i didn't know it said that. I wasn't aware. could you provide me the verse where it actually says that please?

It can be said same about a Christian..be a good Christian and steadfast in your own religion...if that’s what leads you to God.

that's the thing, only way way to God, there can't be two ways, if God has never instructed us to do something, yet a cetain religion follows such a ritual, then how can they possibly be getting closer to god?

Sikhism doesn't really believe in certain 'rituals' as we see it... i.e. bathing at teeraths/pilgrimages, fasts, praying etc which are done as Religious duties. If there is No Naam in all these then they are just empty rituals...valueless.

Well our rituals aren't useless. Our whole life is a test for heaven/hell, God gives us different ways to perform good actions, to receive good deeds in different ways, and at same time he tests us in different ways. They are all forms of worship since God has told us do this or do that. We pray 5 times a day to constantly e reminded of god's presence and he is wathcing us, so we should e good. We fast to improve our self-discipline in matters such as back-biting swearing etc Also we contemplate life of poor, and are encouraged to give more charity. We go hajj to see God's most beuatiful and loved place on earth, where Muhammed SAW battled for good.

Its weird you're having a go at rituals where you yourself grow your hair, and you even have 5 prayersd a day aswel if i'm not mistaken? can you explain these then please? Also don't loads of sikhs do a pilgrimage evry year to a shrine in Lahore?

[Mohsin]

Look at it this way... an 'example'... God is the Peak of the Highest Mountain... but there are MANY different ways to get to that peak.. i.e. many different spiritual paths... :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/58144-post49.html this post by Br. ansar refutes this way of thinking?


Also i'm still don't quite understand, so do you believe Muhammed PBUH was a Prophet? Or Jesus PBUH? or do you believe in Bible or Qur'an?

[Umm Yoosuf]

Good question's :)

[Heera Singh]

Salam..

It proves Guru Granth Sahib is not the word of God. If it was it wouldn't contain the words of other books

how in fact does it prove that?... does God not abide in all? Satguru Granth Sahib is a divinely revealed scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sree Guru Granth Sahib:
---
jaisee mai aavai khusum kee baanee thaisurraa kuree giaan vae laalo ||
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. (722).
---
sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanuhu gurasikhuhu har kuruthaa aap muhuhu kudtaaeae ||
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (308)

There are many more examples where it is made clear that the Bani in Guru Granth Sahib is the word of God. Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee was put together by Sree Guru Gobind Singh Jee himself, he took the writings of the other Gurus and put them together, along with writings of other Bhagats (devotee's of the Gurus)... some even argue that those writers (Bhagat Farid, Bhagat Ravidaas, Bhagat Kabeer etc..) became Sikhs after meeting Guru Nanak Dev... they have been referred to as "Bhagat Babay Kay" or, 'Bhagat of Baba (Nanak... i.e. Guru Nanak)'...

Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee does not contain words of other books.... which books are ur referring to?.. please give examples... and if you studied religions, you would understand that the basis for all the religions is the same...

Secondly these texts aren't all from god, some of them are written by humans, and historians. All muslims unanimously agree that the whole Qur'an is the word of God, but a lot of priests admit bible has been changed, same with rabbis admitting Torah has changed, and also Hindu opundits admit their scriptures have changed, so in essence a lot of these are word of men, who furthermore are attriuting these words wrongly to God, therefore they are liars, so you may have texts and words written liars in your Guru granth Sahib

I agree with you there.... Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee does not believe in any other texts... why you may ask?... because NONE of the other texts were written by the Prophet themselves... even the Qura'an was not written by Prophet Mohammed himself, so how can you say it is the word of God? the Bible wasn't written by Jesus Christ... the Vedas were not written by Shiva or Raam.... however, Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee WAS written and compiled by the Sikh Gurus...

Thirdly my idea of guidance is clearly different from yours. I believe God created us, he knows whats best for us, he knows our ins and outs. So he created us for a purpose, ut he's going to create us with guidance, through prophets (According to islam anyway, through Gurus for you)and when the last prophet has been sent then we have the last revelation, unaltered word of god. We have the Qur'an, which we believe is unchanged, and you believe after the last Guru Gobind Singh now it's the Granth Sahib, which confusingly you admit is not word of god. either way it is the last revelation to us so should be perfect in guidance in every way. we believe ours is all from god, and his laws are perfect, since he knows whats best for us. But your guidance comes from fellow men, who have no divine qualities and are prone to error, how can you have guidance from these people

brother i'm not completely sure if i Understand what you're saying... i'll try to answer to the best of my ability... I agree God knows whats best for us, and he knows our ins and outs... one thing, where Did i Admit it wasn't the word of GOD? if anything, I would say Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the only scriptures that are the word of God, as it was Compiled by our last Guru, Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Jee...

Its weird you're having a go at rituals where you yourself grow your hair, and you even have 5 prayersd a day aswel if i'm not mistaken? can you explain these then please? Also don't loads of sikhs do a pilgrimage evry year to a shrine in Lahore?

I'm not sure how growing your hair and praying x # of times a day is a ritual? Many people are confsued on the definition of ritual... Firstly, Prophet Mohammed grew his hair AND beard did he not?... Jesus Christ Grew his hair and his beard... so, one might ask, why do we grow our hair?... why not?... God made us with hair, no?.. why go against Gods will and change our appearance?... are we not happy with the way God made us?...so, what, God is not perfect then? You can pray as many times a day as you want, in fact, the more the better, no?
About the bathing at the shrine in Lahore (and many other shrines around India and Pakistan), there's nothing wrong wit that... i say this because this isn't a ritual... Our Gurus even stated that bathing at these shrines does not do much for your own Spirituality... bathing at these shrines does not wipe away your sins... the only way to do so is to Contemplate the name of the Lord, and ensrhine that in your hear... people go to bathe because these were set up by our Gurus, and they do it out of their own will... I agree, some people might do it as a ritual, and if they are, they're mistaken...

Oh, and about the question of prophets... from what (little) knowledge I have, Sikhs do recognize Prophets of other religion (i.e. Mohammed, Jesus), however we don't praise/belive in them in that way... Guru Nanak Dev Jee himself said that Mohammed is a friend of God...

(btw.. sorry for the late responses) :)

[ISDhillon]

I was directed to this site by moss aswell but i am just going to repost everything here that i said on that website cos as yet no muslim has been able to refute my challenges, happy reading!!!!

The quoran is an indirect revelation from god via an angel called gabrielle, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a direct revelation from god because gurus were one with god at all times therefore this is the only direct revelation from god. You see muslims dont even believe that we can become one with god so therefore they never grasp the nature of what it means to have a direct revelation, Guru Nanak Dev Ji explains it quite satifactorily when he says "Jai se mai aavai kasam ki baani..." i reveal as the word comes to me. Hindu scriptures are inspired by reverberations that can be heard in different spiritual regions this is the source of the vedas they are not from god either that is why the presiding deity of a spiritual region is the object of their worship. With regards to koran they say "noone can write a surah like it i dare you...." this is easy tell them that you will accept their challenge if they can find even one verse in quoran that can awaken your soul like 1430 pages of bani can, if they say they can then their whole philosophy comes crashing down because in their theological position self-realisation is a farce. And this is the fundamental difference between scripture and revelation or bani, that bani is not a maryada, bani is for your soul, the divine essence within has the opportunity to rekindle its intimate bond with god through the primacy of direct revelation - sounds like boring philosophical words but it is the vital difference between the nature of bani which is guru and the purpose of quoran which is opinion, ie, our guru never left their prophet did!. We need to start to fully understand sikh doctrine before we engage in debate with other faiths many muslims I met say that for all the equality that sikhi preaches it failed to produce even one female guru from its 10 and even elected a child of the age of 8. This misunderstanding shows how they view our religion in reality the answer is that guru is bani and bani has no gender, the vehicle for bani was flesh in a male form, today the vehicle is paper which is neither male or female it has nothing to do with political times or social conditions its about how we veiw the guru - does the body really mean anything?

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PASTING EXCESSIVELY LONG PAGES OF TEXT TO GET YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS. YOU ARE FREE TO RAISE WHATEVER POINTS YOU LIKE FOR DEBATE.

[The Ruler]

u say dat we r one wid GOD?????!!!!!!!

n also....in shikhism, does da women need to wear head cover????

i ill continue after i get an answer...:)

:w:

[Heera Singh]

We are not one with God... Yet... we know that God abides in all of us... only through deep contemplation and meditation of GODS name, can we SEE GOD within us and thus become one with God...

In the Sikh religion we believe in equality, so if a male should cover his head, so should female... women are also encouraged (but not forced) to dawn a turban as well.. i'm not sure if many of you know the Significance of the turban in the Sikh religion, so If you want me to explain that.. i can... i personally think Sikh women who dawn the turban look absolutely exquisite... as i feel Muslim women who wear the Hajab (please forigve me if i spelled it wrong, or used the wrong word) also have that same appeal of 'royalness'...
here's a picture of a Sikh woman with a Turban...

Attachment 986

I think thats absolutely beautiful :)

[ISDhillon]

Well folks it just shows this site is scared of the truth my whole message which was packed with lots of juicy information about sikhism has been deleted by exremist moderators who are scared of the truth well let it be on your on conscience if you have one i am sure this will be deleted too in the guise of offensive nature or something stupid like that.

Yes sikh men and women should wear keski which is sort of like a turban for cultural reasons women just wear chunnis or scarfes.

Please ask plenty more questions I am more than happy to answer we love our religion and are proud sikhs so wouldnt want you to go away with the wrong impression of us.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!!

ISDhillon

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Well folks it just shows this site is scared of the truth my whole message which was packed with lots of juicy information about sikhism has been deleted by exremist moderators who are scared of the truth well let it be on your on conscience

Not at all. It is simply unfair to just paste pages and expect a response. If you want to debate then let's discuss each point one at a time. Why are you afraid to examine each point one by one? It shouldn't make a difference, right?

Bring your first point and we'll discuss it.

Peace.

[Mohsin]

:sl: Heera Singh

Sorry for late reply

Quote:
It proves Guru Granth Sahib is not the word of God. If it was it wouldn't contain the words of other books

how in fact does it prove that?...

This is what was originally said

Guru Granth Sahib, Sikhism's Holiest collection of gurbani contains Banis from Muslims, Hindus and many others who were not sikhs. This is a first in World History..No holy texts of any religion contain even one line from any other religion...the Sikh religious text contains many pages of such writings of authors from other religions...

AUTHORS of other religions?Therfore these are not all words of God since normal people wrote in them!

Satguru Granth Sahib is a divinely revealed scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sree Guru Granth Sahib:
---
jaisee mai aavai khusum kee baanee thaisurraa kuree giaan vae laalo ||
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. (722).
---
sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanuhu gurasikhuhu har kuruthaa aap muhuhu kudtaaeae ||
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (308)

This doesn't prove it is the word of God, all it proves is someone is claiming it is word of God. I believe Qur'an is word of God, but i can't simply use a verse from the Qur'an where God says that, you have to bring more proof than that

Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee was put together by Sree Guru Gobind Singh Jee himself, he took the writings of the other Gurus and put them together, along with writings of other Bhagats (devotee's of the Gurus)... some even argue that those writers (Bhagat Farid, Bhagat Ravidaas, Bhagat Kabeer etc..) became Sikhs after meeting Guru Nanak Dev... they have been referred to as "Bhagat Babay Kay" or, 'Bhagat of Baba (Nanak... i.e. Guru Nanak)'...

Number one can you bring me any proof where Guru Nanek met Kabir? In fact Kabir was around well befoe Guru Nanek was, and Kabir never met Guru Nanek and never had any idea that his words were being used by someone else

Secondly you said Gobind Singh compiled the works of other Gurus, and at same time you're saying it's word of God, therefore are you saying these Gurus are God-incarnates. Can you please explain the concept of God and gurus in Sikhism, i'm really confused

I agree with you there.... Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee does not believe in any other texts...

Well earlier on you said

No holy texts of any religion contain even one line from any other religion...the Sikh religious text contains many pages of such writings of authors from other religions

So if you don't believe in these texts, why use them in your holy book

because NONE of the other texts were written by the Prophet themselves... even the Qura'an was not written by Prophet Mohammed himself, so how can you say it is the word of God?

Lol. Yes bro that's exactly my point, Prophet Muhammed did not write the Qur'an, it's the word of God that was revealed to Prophet Muhammed SAW. Either way, it was compiled in the hearts and minds of companions, they all memorized it, and it was written down in the Prophet SAW's time, just not together, separately on different parchments and pieces of stone, under his supervision, he would recite, and he would instruct companions of his to record. It was compiled together after his passing, but that doesn't really make a difference since it had already been revealed, written down, and since so many people knew it by heart there can't possibly have been any prolem in putting it together

however, Sree Guru Granth Sahib Jee WAS written and compiled by the Sikh Gurus...

So you're admitting it's not word of God??

where Did i Admit it wasn't the word of GOD?

See above

Can you just bring forward ONE argument to show a muslim ritual is useless? Its all from god and all has divine wisdoms.

Prophet Muhammed SAW and Jesus AS did cut their hair, and their beard was not down to their waist as i have seen some sikhs have, this is unhygienic, causes spread of germs etc. And do you cut nails?if you don't isn't that also very unhygienic, so many germs and bacteria can grow there

are we not happy with the way God made us?...so, what, God is not perfect then?

This is a really strange statment, ok so why is there evil in the world may i ask, accoding to you does that make god not perfect, of course not. God allowed hair to grow so we can express our beauty in different ways, women grow their hair long and look beautiful, men are suited to have it short. Its a feminine quality to have long hair, to grow hair beyond the shoulders is imitating women, and that is not acceptable since we shouldn't imitate women, God has created us different and we should be happy and happy he has created us man or woman, and so should not try to imitate the other sex. Also why grow the hai, well it'd look weird if we were always bold, so naturally has to grow, but then it also has to be cut

Oh, and about the question of prophets... from what (little) knowledge I have, Sikhs do recognize Prophets of other religion (i.e. Mohammed, Jesus), however we don't praise/belive in them in that way... Guru Nanak Dev Jee himself said that Mohammed is a friend of God...

Ok i'm really confused now. Can you please just simply answer the question directly. Were they or were they not prophets of God.

Either they were prophets, or they weren't, in case they were men, who made up things themselves, and attributed them to God, which made them liars. So are they liars, or Prophets?

You still haven't answered my followng questions

How can there be more than two ways to God, so you say you recognise people of other religion? well how, only one way can be right

Also you still haven't explained the "useless" ritual that Guru nanek went on, Hajj, was he a muslim then and not a sikh? How did he go there, did he say he was a muslim?

[Mohsin]

:sl: ISDHILLON

May i ask what is so superior about the Guru Granth sahib, it's words etc. since non-sikhs wrote this?

Guru Nanak was influenced by Sant Kabir

Guru Nanak was influenced by the sayings of Sant Kabir so much that several chapters of Sri Guru Granth Sahib contain couplets of Sant Kabir.


Below is from www.irf.net



Guru Nanak was influenced by Sant Kabir

One of the famous couplets of Sant Kabir is:

"Dukh mein sumirana sabh karein
Sukh mein karein na koya
Jo sukh mein sumirana karein
To dukh kaye hoye?"

"In times of trouble, God is remembered by all
But none remembers Him during peace and happiness.
If God is remembered in good times of happiness
Why should trouble occur?"

Compare this with the following verse of the Qur’an:

"When some trouble toucheth man,
He crieth unto his Lord,
Turning to Him in repentance:
But when He bestoweth
A favour upon him
As from Himself,
(Man) doth forget what he cried
And prayed for before,
And he doth set up
Rivals unto Allah."
[Al-Qur’an 39:8]

[ISDhillon]

“May i ask what is so superior about the Guru Granth sahib, it's words etc. since non-sikhs wrote this?

Guru Nanak was influenced by Sant Kabir”

sure you can. The guru is spiritual word (gurshabad) or naam, bhagat is one who becomes one with the naam (by doing bhagti) , there is no difference then as the jot in the bhagat (soul) becomes one with the jot in the guru (naam) joti-jot, however the guru has the spirit already immanent in the word (of god), the bhagat becomes a devotee and is attuned to the word.

Bhagti het gur Shabad trangaa: Through the Shabad, inspiration for Bhagti wells up (sggs 1042).
Gur ke Shabad sadaa dhiyaaye ehaa bhagti Hari bhavaniyaa: Through the Shabad, meditate forever on the Lord. This devotional worship is pleasing to the Lord (sggs 122).
Shabad marai bhagti paaye jan soyi: One who dies in the Shabad, obtains Bhagti (sggs 159).
Banee vajai Shabad vjaaye gurmukh bhagti thaayi paavaniyaa: The devotional service of the pious person, in whom the Gurbani vibrates and the Shabad resounds, is accepted (sggs 122).
Bhagti bina sahsaa nah chookai Gur ih bhed btaavai: Without Bhagti, doubt is not dispelled; the Guru has revealed this secret (sggs 830).
Bhagti bhagti karte Hari paya ja Hari Hari Hari Hari Naam samayeeyaa: Serving and praising God, I merge in His Name, then I attain Him (sggs 837).



The guru is pre-determined in the sense that the spirit (naam) descended in history and becomes determinate in the word (sri guru granth sahib), whereas the bhagats spirit ascends through self-determination and becomes one with the gurshabad. Although such a union is also pre-ordained but the bhagat struggles with this human body (self-determination) whereas as the guru is already realised spirit.

After the 10th guru the words of the gurus and the bhagats were conferred with guruship that’s why some saints say that what comes out of their mouths is also bani ie, direct revelation. But it is not "gurbani" as those words were not conferred with gurus jot, it is a sort of formal investiture with god sort of like a covenent.

Now who the hell do you think you are making up stories that my guru was inspired by kabir both kabir and nanak are inspired by god Guru Nanak was sent to this earth self-realised, kabir acheived this state by transcending the teachings of islam ie, sufism I suggest you do some non-biased reading my freind. The same cannot be said of koran which neither defines direct revelation but openly states that mohammed recieved an indirect revelation from an angel called gabrielle, sufism is the evidence that youre religion is not the full truth perhaps you should debate that first before you attempt sikhism.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!

ISDhillon :happy:

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hi ISDhillion-

My knowledge in you religion is very limited, I have tried to follow this forum trying to get some insight into your religion, but so far it has been a confusing to say the least-

What I would like to know from you, if you will be kind enough to provide, is whether the religion you follow is the religion chosen by God himself, for whole of Mankind?

What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

What is your belief in the origin of Life?

And the purpose of life?

I have so many questions I would like to ask, but ill start of with the above 4- I would be grateful if you can shed some light-

By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!

Kind Regards

Quban

[Maimunah]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hi ISDhillion-

My knowledge in you religion is very limited, I have tried to follow this forum trying to get some insight into your religion, but so far it has been a confusing to say the least-

What I would like to know from you, if you will be kind enough to provide, is whether the religion you follow is the religion chosen by God himself, for whole of Mankind?

What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

What is your belief in the origin of Life?

And the purpose of life?

I have so many questions I would like to ask, but ill start of with the above 4- I would be grateful if you can shed some light-

By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!

Kind Regards

Quban

excellent brother
nice one!!
salaam

[ishkabab]

great questions brother QURBAN !! i cant wait to hear those answers....

[Mohsin]

ISDhillon Kabir was a muslim, he had different beliefs to that of Nanak, he thought Muhammed PBUH was the last messenger, ie Guru Nanek was just any other human being, so why is Kabir's works included here

You keep going on about the Qur'an being revealed indirectly. How is it indirectly, God told Gabriel AS, and the message was conveyed to Muhammed PBUH, the same message got through. God conveyed the messages in different kinds of way, for example he spoke to Moses PBUH. Anyway, why was the Guru Granth sahib only compiled after the 4th or 5th Guru, this supplies evidence that the other so called Gurus never believed in "Sikhism" and that it was craeted by their followers because they were so impressed by nanaks way of life and character

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE


You ask hoiw am i craeting stories about Nank being inspired by Kabir, well maybe because Kabir died before Nanak was around :rollseyes

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Quarban Ji

I hope I get the opportunity to answer more of your question with gurus kirpa all is acheivable.

“What I would like to know from you, if you will be kind enough to provide, is whether the religion you follow is the religion chosen by God himself, for whole of Mankind? “


My Answer: This has been discussed many times this is my personal view from a previous discussion, let me also remind you that the various bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib were not sikhs yet they found god and all belonged to their respective faiths first this clearly shows that it is the love of god that it primary, sikhism took the the torch furhter and revealed the path of naam and atam marg. All religions have specific customs and literature and teachings these teachings help inculcate a love in the seeker to fall in love with god, when a person from another faith falls in love with god they transcend the teachings of their faith by repeating the name of god night and day with devotion and the lord answers their call and they acheive union

how do i know that different members of different faiths can transcend the teachings of their respective faiths?

because we have proof in our religion, farid was muslim/sufi, namdev was hindu bhagat etc etc they all did namaz etc or aarti but it was only after they inculcated a love for the divine that they repeated the name and therefore entered naam marg which is what sikhi believes in therefore that is the sentiment behind all faiths being a path to god it has nothing to do with pluralism or contradiction.

please dont get offended but i do believe that my faith does have unique qualities and that is because as i said before the truth is realised through time and the truth is that it is the love of god which is primary religion is secondary as per sikh teachings.

What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

My Answer: The same is for all people even for sikhs and that is rebirth you do not have to follow sikhism but you do have to follow naam marg which is revealed by sikhism and not by any other religion.

What is your belief in the origin of Life?

My belief is simialr to big bang theory but I can only say what the guru says:

Creation and Gurmat
"Kita pasao eko kavao" Guru Nanak in JAP JI (Pauri 13)
Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches - "In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him. The Great Potential hidden within Him was manifested in His creation. Even after creation, He remains detached as endless and unequaled Absolute One. He creates Nature and Himself witnesses it. He brings to an end to all the creation and He reverts to His original state of Aloneness. Air and water were created from His Absolute Self. He creates the Universe and also Man. Man's body consists of water, fire and matter, and within it exists His Light. It is God's Creative Power, which creates all. From the Absolute Lord emanated the Powers of Creativity, Sustenance and Annihilation (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva). From the Absolute Lord emanated all the ages. He is the real man, who understands this knowledge, and it is as a result of union with God, all man's doubts are dispelled. The Absolute Lord created the five senses, intellect and the mind. The Lord, who created them, He Himself keeps watch over them. The person, who by His Grace associates with the congregation of Saints, brings to an end the cycle of repeated births and deaths.
"From the Absolute Lord came forth moon, sun and the firmament. His Light is spread in all the three worlds (which is creative) ......" (Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Rag Maru, Sohile, page 1037, Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
"The Immaculate Lord, Who created His Own self, is all by Himself. He Himself has created the Play of the whole creation. He Himself has created the Three Qualities of Matter and increased love for worldly things. Those, who love the Lord's Will, by His Grace, are the ones who attain salvation. Says Nanak, the True Lord is pervading amongst all and all are contained in the True Lord." (Sri Guru Ram Das Ji, Sarang Ki Var, Pauri 1, page 1337, Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
In Asa Di Var, Pauri 1, page 463 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: "He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself, and gave Name to Himself. The second thing He created is Nature, wherein He resides and revels in His wonder ......"
In Siri Rag, page 19, the Guru says: "From the True Lord came the Wind, and from the Wind, came the Water. From the Water sprang the material World, and He, the Lord, pervades all. ......"
Tenth Guru Ji's says in Tav Parsad Chaupai. "I pay my respects to The Aad Purakh (God). He who is the cause of all causes. He created every thing that is present in Water, on the Ground and above the Ground (i.e.Universe).
The Guru empasises that GOD IS THE ONLY CREATOR and all was created at His Will. The Creation (Big Bang) theory of Science became popular in the 1960's while Guru Nanak explained the creation in the 1500's.


However in sikhism we do not deny the ideology behind adam and eve because it helped establish a patriarchial society but it is a metaphor it is not really what happened in dasam granth Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji also wrote an adam and eve style mythology but for the establishment of patriarchy not as a relation to the origin of the universe I could go into depth more on this but it will involve philosophy and I will be here forever and you will get bored this is from dasam granth which is not the guru but poetry:

Myth of Creation in Sri Bichitar Natak
Now let us examine the myth of Creation as given in Bachitar Natak by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. This myth is the modification of one appearing in Hindu Religious Books, Puranas.
The Guru states -
“When the Formless God effected the expansion of the Universe by uttering a WORD, He created the Earth. At the onset He created the Matter of five elements (Maya), from it a most beautiful and powerful king named Kalsain (god Vishnu) emerged. The second king produced was Kalkait (god Brahma) and the third Koorrbaras (god Shiva). The Fourth was Kaldhuj (Mahavishnu), from Whom the whole creation emerged. God has thousands of beautiful eyes and thousands of lovely feet. He has enthroned Himself on the bed cushion of multi-headed Hydra Serpent and He is remembered by the people, the One seated on the coiled body of Hydra Serpent. God extracted wax from one of His ears, from which Madh and Kitab were produced. He then extracted wax from the other ear, from which this Universe was created. He then caused Madh and Kitab to be killed. Their body fluids were thrown into the ocean. The gluey and oily matter of their body fluids began to float on the surface of water and from thence onward the Creation was named after Madh. Those who perform good deeds in this Universe are remembered as godly persons, while the evil doers are called demons.”
“pritham kal jub kara pasara, oankar tai sirast opara. Kal sain prithmai bhio bhoopa, adhik atul bal roop anoopa. (10)
kal kait doosar bhoo bhio, koorbaras tisar jug thio.Kaldhuj. chathruth nirap soey, jeh tai bhio jagat sabh ko hai. (11)
sehas rach ja ko subh sohai, sehes pad jakai tun mo hai. Sais nag par soeibo karai, jugthe saikh saey ochrai. (12)
Aik sarvan tai mail nikara, tatai madh kitab tun dhara. Dutiya kan tai mail nikari, tatai bhei sirast eih sari. (13)
tinko kal bohoar badh kara, tin ko maid smund mo para. Chiken tas jul par tir rehi, maida nam tabeh tai kehi. (14)
Sadh karam jai purkh kamavai, nam daivata jagat kahavai. Kukirat karm jai jug meh karhi, nam asur tin tosabh dharhin. (15)”
Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji in this myth first gives the idea of Guru Nanak as given in Jupji, that the Universe was brought into existence by utterance of One Word by God. In this way God created the Three gods of Hindu Trinity, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, signifying creation of Matter (Maya) of Three Modes, from which the whole Universe was created. God is further stated to be resting on the coils of the body of Hydra Serpent. Serpent. This Myth is the modification of the Puranic Myth of Creation.
Wild animals, sword, staff, sceptre, etc. are the father symbols, or the emblems of power and well recognized Phallic Symbol, which normally appear in dreams. God is depicted as Almighty, and also as Male God. (God is Formless - this is a myth). As regards birth of persons through ears, the myths and legends in all cultures abound in this type of birth. The legends and traditions of Catholic Christian Church mention that the conception of Jesus in the virgin Mary was brought about by the introduction into her ear of the breath of the Holy Ghost. Hanuwant and Karna, heroes of Ramayana and Mahabharta respectively were born through the ear. In connection with Madonna's conception through the ear, Dr. Earnest Jones writes, "In the endeavor to represent the purest and least sensual form of pro-creation that can be imagined, the one most befitting to the Creator Himself, the mind worked surely on the soundest lines by reaching for its basis to the crudest and grossest idea obtainable; it is always through such violently extreme contrasts, as we know from the analytic study of literature, that the greatest psychological effects are achieved."
God in this myth is stated to have created one Man and one Woman through one of His ears, and from the other He created Earth. In whole of this myth of Creation, the Male God is the sole Creator, Who did not take help of any other agency, particularly female one. The first created Man and Woman were named, Madh and Kitab respectively. God is stated to have later caused killing of Madh and Kitab. Killing is the symbolic of the coitus or sexual act, just as riding a horse, car, etc are in all cultures. Mare is a symbolic of a woman, and riding on the back of a mare is the symbolic of coitus. It is therefore riding of mare by the bride grooms on the marriage occasion is the universal practice. Guru Nanak in his Composition 'Oankar' in Ramkali Rag, states, "kam, karodh kaya ko galay." - Sexual Indulgence and Anger waste away the body. Since the fetal existence is identical to the state of death, the act of being killed is associated with the sexual intercourse., which implies a return to the womb. Sea, lakes, rivers, streams, ponds, etc. signify the womb and the process of birth. The killing of Madh and Kitab, therefore, means that they were engaged in the sexual intercourse and the sexual substance fell into the womb of Kitab. (tin ko kal bahor badh kara, tin ko maidh samandar mein para). The glue like oily sexual substance remained floating in the womb and impregnated Kitab, who gave birth to the off-springs. The human race began to be called the progeny of Madh, as Medni. Word ‘Medni’ in Scriptures means the Whole of Human Race. The Guru thus preaches the Patriarchal System of Society, against the Matriarchal System of unwedded women bearing children, which is unethical. The lineage of all must be from the paternal side of the family, which is based on Ethical Principles and disciplined living. At the end the Guru declares that those who would lead a life based on Morality would be honored, and those who would repudiate Morality, would be called the accursed persons.
The concluding Dictum of the Guru in the Myth exhorting people to lead a moral life is the key to the understanding of this Myth. It is surprising that we have not bothered to know the relation of the concluding Dictum to the foregoing text of the Composition. It is this type of our not going deep into the Compositions of the Gurus, has caused confusion in us. We thus wrongly interpret the Gurus' Compositions, and come to the conclusion that these are not theirs.

And the purpose of life?

Self realisation this theme runs throughout the whole of sri guru granth sahib ji open any page and i swear it will say something about self-realisation.


”By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!”

Yes i can the koran says that it was the word of an angel called gabrielle and guru granth sahib tells us plenty about koran you will have to do research yourself:

1. Page4 Line 18 Raag Jap: Guru Nanak Dev

vKqu n pwieE kwdIAw ij ilKin lyKu kurwxu ]
vakhath n paaeiou kaadheeaa j likhan laekh kuraan ||
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.
2. Page24 Line 11 Raag Sriraag: Guru Nanak Dev

pMj vKq invwj gujwrih pVih kqyb kurwxw ]
panj vakhath nivaaj gujaarehi parrehi kathaeb kuraanaa ||
You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran.
3. Page140 Line 18 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]
mihar maseeth sidhak musalaa hak halaal kuraan ||
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.
4. Page329 Line 12 Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

khq kbIr Bly Asvwrw ] byd kqyb qy rhih inrwrw ]3]31]
kehath kabeer bhalae asavaaraa || baedh kathaeb thae rehehi niraaraa ||3||31||
Says Kabeer, those who remain detached from the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible are the best riders. ||3||31||
5. Page397 Line 7 Raag Aasaa: Guru Arjan Dev

byd kqyb sMswr hBw hUM bwhrw ]
baedh kathaeb sansaar habhaa hoon baaharaa ||
He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.
6. Page518 Line 7 Raag Goojree: Guru Arjan Dev

quDu iDAwiein@ byd kqybw sxu KVy ]
thudhh dhhiaaeinih baedh kathaebaa san kharrae ||
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.
7. Page722 Line 19 Raag Tilang: Guru Nanak Dev

muslmwnIAw pVih kqybw kst mih krih Kudwie vy lwlo ]
musalamaaneeaa parrehi kathaebaa kasatt mehi karehi khudhaae vae laalo ||
The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
8. Page885 Line 10 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

koeI pVY byd koeI kqyb ]
koee parrai baedh koee kathaeb ||
Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.
9. Page897 Line 3 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

kurwn kqyb qy pwku ]3]
kuraan kathaeb thae paak ||3||
more sacred than the Koran and the Bible. ||3||
10. Page903 Line 4 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

kil prvwxu kqyb kurwxu ]
kal paravaan kathaeb kuraan ||
In Kali Yuga, the Koran and the Bible have become famous.
11. Page1036 Line 5 Raag Maaroo: Guru Nanak Dev

byd kqyb n isMimRiq swsq ]
baedh kathaeb n sinmrith saasath ||
There were no Vedas, Korans or Bibles, no Simritees or Shaastras.
12. Page1083 Line 17 Raag Maaroo: Guru Arjan Dev

kurwxu kqyb idl mwih kmwhI ]
kuraan kathaeb dhil maahi kamaahee ||
Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;
13. Page1193 Line 16 Raag Basant: Saint Kabir

isMimRiq maulI isau kqyb ]2]
sinmrith moulee sio kathaeb ||2||
The Simritees blossom forth, along with the Koran and the Bible. ||2||
14. Page1290 Line 4 Raag Malaar: Guru Nanak Dev

mwsu purwxI mwsu kqybNØI chu juig mwsu kmwxw ]
maas puraanee maas kathaebanaee chahu jug maas kamaanaa ||
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
15. Page1350 Line 5 Raag Parbhaatee: Saint Kabir

byd kqyb khhu mq JUTy JUTw jo n ibcwrY ]
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

Sat sri akal Moss Sahib Ji,

“ISDhillon Kabir was a muslim”

oh really have look and judge for yourself the denial is unbelievable with you people:


ਆਸਾ ॥
आसा ॥
aasaa.
Aasaa:
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥
हिंदू तुरक कहा ते आए किनि एह राह चलाई ॥
hindoo turak kahaa tay aa-ay kin ayh raah chalaa-ee.
Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?
ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥
दिल महि सोचि बिचारि कवादे भिसत दोजक किनि पाई ॥१॥
dil meh soch bichaar kavaaday bhisat dojak kin paa-ee. ||1||
Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||
ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥
काजी तै कवन कतेब बखानी ॥
kaajee tai kavan katayb bakhaanee.
O Qazi, which book have you read?
ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
पड़्हत गुनत ऐसे सभ मारे किनहूं खबरि न जानी ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
parhHat gunat aisay sabh maaray kinhooN khabar na jaanee. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||
ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥
सकति सनेहु करि सुंनति करीऐ मै न बदउगा भाई ॥
sakat sanayhu kar sunat karee-ai mai na bad-ugaa bhaa-ee.
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.
ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥
जउ रे खुदाइ मोहि तुरकु करैगा आपन ही कटि जाई ॥२॥
ja-o ray khudaa-ay mohi turak karaigaa aapan hee kat jaa-ee. ||2||
If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||
ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥
सुंनति कीए तुरकु जे होइगा अउरत का किआ करीऐ ॥
sunat kee-ay turak jay ho-igaa a-urat kaa ki-aa karee-ai.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?
ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
अरध सरीरी नारि न छोडै ता ते हिंदू ही रहीऐ ॥३॥
araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||
She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||
ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
छाडि कतेब रामु भजु बउरे जुलम करत है भारी ॥
chhaad katayb raam bhaj ba-uray julam karat hai bhaaree.
Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.
ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥
कबीरै पकरी टेक राम की तुरक रहे पचिहारी ॥४॥८॥
kabeerai pakree tayk raam kee turak rahay pachihaaree. ||4||8||
Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||


“God told Gabriel AS, and the message was conveyed to Muhammed PBUH, the same message got through. God conveyed the messages in different kinds of way, for example he spoke to Moses PBUH.”

yes but this is still indirect revelation all you have done is supported my assertion i dont know how to argue with you when you agree with me.

“Anyway, why was the Guru Granth sahib only compiled after the 4th or 5th Guru, this supplies evidence that the other so called Gurus never believed in "Sikhism" and that it was craeted by their followers because they were so impressed by nanaks way of life and character “

silly boy, all thr gurus are the same spirit only the flesh changes have look:




6 Raamkalee Balvand and Sata

gur AMgd dI dohI iPrI scu krqY bMiD bhwlI ]
Guru Angad was proclaimed, and the True Creator confirmed it.
gur angadh dhee dhohee firee sach karathai bandhh behaalee ||
7 Raamkalee Balvand and Sata

nwnku kwieAw pltu kir mil qKqu bYTw sY fwlI ]
Nanak merely changed his body; He still sits on the throne, with hundreds of branches reaching out.
naanak kaaeiaa palatt kar mal thakhath baithaa sai ddaalee ||


now after discussing with the few who have asked questions it is quite apparent that someone is teaching you these allegations you have not gone yourselves to a sikh scholar you have tried to pick holes but unfortunately you will make no headway in your endeavours if you would like to learn sikh doctrine then please read the following article otherwise you will always be confounded:

http://www.punjabheritage.com/doctrine.html

Happy reading and to the moderator if you edit this message then you are scared of the truth i have only answered the questions asked of me no more no less.

Thanks,

ISDhillon

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Greetings ISDhillion

Inshiallah first of all I would like to address your response to my question

”By the way if you believe that the Quran is not the word of God! Produce your proof if you are truthful!”

Your Response was

“Yes i can the Koran says that it was the word of an angel called Gabrielle”

Sorry you’re wrong, I said produce your proof, what you presented to me wasn’t proof. Show me the verse and the chapter that says the Quran is the word of Gabrielle.

But to save you time there is no such verse that says the Quran is the word of Gabrielle.

On the contrary there are many verses in the Quran which clearly says that it’s the word of Allah

“And this Qur'an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah”


Holy Quran (10:37)

(Alif Lam Mim). The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) in which there is no doubt, is from the Lord of all that exists)

Holy Quran (32:1-2).

“Verily, it is we who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, we will guard it (from corruption)”

Holy Quran 15:9

Allah, may He be exalted, stated that He is the One who revealed the Quran, and He is protecting it from being changed or altered.

It is further revealed if it was from any body else apart from God it would have had many contradictions-

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than God, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #82

However, this Qur'an is free of shortcomings, and therefore, it is from Allah

The Qur'an has a miraculous nature that cannot be imitated. No one can produce anything similar to the Qur'an, nor ten Surahs or even one Surah like it. The eloquence, clarity, precision and grace of the Qur'an cannot be but from Allah. The great and abundant principles and meanings within the Qur'an -- which are of great benefit in this world and for the Hereafter -- cannot be but from Allah. There is nothing like His High Self and Attributes or like His sayings and actions. Therefore His Words are not like the words of His creatures.

If he chose to reveal his words to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) through the angel Jibreel, in what way does that make it Jibreels words and his will?

If I asked you go to your friends and family and recite the below words

“I bear witness that their in no deity worthy of worship except Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger”

Would you say it was your words or mine!

A Post man delivering letter from me to you, is the letter the post mans words or mine- who is the source of the message me or the postman?

My grandmother cannot read very clearly, her eyesight in not what it used to be, so when a letter arrives from back home from her sister, I read it out to her, is it my words that I am reading or her sisters?, you get the picture!

Similarly if God commanded his angel Gabriel to convey the message to Muhammad, in what way does that make Jib -reel (peace be upon him) the source of the message?

If God revealed his word to Muhammad (PBUH) directly you would have said that the Quran is Muhammad (PBUH)words not Gods!


Surely, there is not a miracle or evidence more eloquent or effective on the heart and mind than this Qur'an. Had Allah revealed it to a mountain, you would see the mountain shake and humbled from fear of Allah. The Sahih recorded that the Messenger of Allah said,

Every Prophet was given (a miracle) the type of which would make (some) people believe. What I was given, however, is a revelation from Allah to me, and I hope that I will have the most following among them (Prophets) on the Day of Resurrection.) This Hadith indicates that every Prophet's miracle disappeared upon his death, but this Qur'an will remain as evidence for all times. Verily, the miracle of the Qur'an will never end, nor will it become old the more it is read, nor will scholars ever have enough of it. The Qur'an is serious and is not meant for jest; any tyrant that abandons it, Allah will destroy him; he who seeks guidance in other than the Qur'an, then Allah will misguide him.

Now moving onto the rest of the Reponses inshiallah!

Sikhsm- message for the whole of mankind-

You said

“let me also remind you that the various bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib were not sikhs yet they found god and all belonged to their respective faiths first this clearly shows that it is the love of god that it primary- sikhism took the the torch furhter and revealed the path of naam and atam marg. All religions have specific customs and literature and teachings these teachings help inculcate a love in the seeker to fall in love with god, when a person from another faith falls in love with god they transcend the teachings of their faith by repeating the name of god night and day with devotion and the lord answers their call and they acheive union”

If you love God you will obey his command, pursue what he approves and refrain from what he forbids,

In the Quran God revealed

“They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son
Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
That they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son

Holy Quran (19:88-91)”

Now tell me in what way are the Christians showing their love to God?

Now the Christians will consider that Christianity is the true religion, they will ask in what way is a Muslim, Hindus etc showing his love to God when he denies that Jesus was crucified for the sins of mankind-

If there is only one God- then how can Christian and Muslims and Hindus with their mutually contradictory beliefs love god at the same time?

“how do i know that different members of different faiths can transcend the teachings of their respective faiths?

because we have proof in our religion, farid was muslim/sufi, namdev was hindu bhagat etc etc they all did namaz etc or aarti but it was only after they inculcated a love for the divine that they repeated the name and therefore entered naam marg which is what sikhi believes in therefore that is the sentiment behind all faiths being a path to god it has nothing to do with pluralism or contradiction.”


You’ve forwarded examples of people entering naam marg, but you have not, proved to me, that this was the right thing to do and it pleased god! Can you proof to me Farid, namdev etc are in heaven, or the alternative in your religion Sikhsm?

“please dont get offended but i do believe that my faith does have unique qualities and that is because as i said before the truth is realised through time and the truth is that it is the love of god which is primary religion is secondary as per sikh teachings.”

No offence taken!

What happens to people who don’t follow your religion?

You Said

“My Answer: The same is for all people even for sikhs and that is rebirth you do not have to follow sikhism but you do have to follow naam marg which is revealed by sikhism and not by any other religion.”

Now please correct me if I have misinterpreted your above statement-

You are saying that who ever does not follow naam marg will be reborn?
If Naam marg was revealed by the Sikhsm, and sikhsm was introduced by Guru Nanak– it can be concluded that mankind before the advent of Sikhism and naam marg will be reborn!

Now is being re-born a punishment?, if it is then do you feel its fair for God to punish some one without revealing his divine will?

If its not punishment- then I presume it’s a reward- which does not make sense-

Why reward some one who does not follow naam marg-
I presume from these two options you will admit it’s a punishment!


If being reborn is a form of punishment for not following naam marg- then how do you know you have been punished?, do you still have memories from you past life?- if not, then how do you know if you are in a worse state now than you were in a previous life, if you have no recollection of your previous life- you have nothing to compare it to!

Just say some on who was healthy in his previous life was reborn in a state of blindness because he did not follow naam marg-
As he would not have any recollection of his previous life, how does he know it was punishment, as far as his concerned it could be reward for his goodness, he could have been deaf dumb and blind in his previous life-
Matter of fact how does he know he was reborn? How long does this loop go on for-?

Just like you cannot distinguish what is bad without good, or darkness without light,, or pain if there wasn’t relieve, or sorrow if there wasn’t happiness,then how can you know if you’re being punished, if you have no recollection of your previous life?

Thinking about this whole idea of re-birth, which you say applies to the whole of mankind, what about babies who die, what happens to them? I mean they have no idea of naam marg.

Now flipping to the other side of the coin, if you do follow naam marg, what happens to you after you die- are you reborn again as well?


And the purpose of life?

“Self realisation this theme runs throughout the whole of sri guru granth sahib ji open any page and i swear it will say something about self-realisation.”

So your saying the purpose of life is to realise yourself, if you would be kind enough to expound on this further- what is it about our self that we are seeking? How do we know we have not realised it already?

How about, the purpose of life is to worship the one who created you; God.

What is your belief in the origin of Life?

You Said

“My belief is simialr to big bang theory but I can only say what the guru says:

Creation and Gurmat
"Kita pasao eko kavao" Guru Nanak in JAP JI (Pauri 13)
Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches - "In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him”.


(We also believe God was always there, and he doesn’t have a beginning)

"From the Absolute Lord came forth moon, sun and the firmament. His Light is spread in all the three worlds (which is creative) ...... " (Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, Rag Maru, Sohile, page 1037, Sri Guru Granth Sahib).
"The Immaculate Lord, Who created His Own self, “

“In Asa Di Var, Pauri 1, page 463 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: "He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself,”

This causes problems- anything that was created did not existed prior to his creation, is your scripture saying God never existed at some point?
This contradicts with “"In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him.

If God existed then why need the need to create him self?-
Unless he created another version of himself, which contradicts the concept of one god, or he created a part of himself, which tells me that he wasn’t 100% to start of with!

“The Creation (Big Bang) theory of Science became popular in the 1960's while Guru Nanak explained the creation in the 1500's. “


But where does it mention about the Big Bang? I’ve read the entire paragraph, and there is nothing indicating about the big bang, all you have said is God created everything, water, wind, etc.

And even if it did mention about the big bang, the Quran revealed it in more detail before Guru Nanak explained it in the 1500! Please don’t get offended but, its like saying Newton discovered F=ma, then some one else comes along and writes down F=ma. When something is already been discovered or said and then after several years later some one else repeats it, its no miracle.

Now lets inshiallah proceed, and address what the Holy Quran (which was revealed 1400 years ago) has to say about the big bang.

Scientist recently discovered that one point in time the universe was nothing but a cloud of smoke. This is one of the undisputed principles of standard modern cosmology. Scientist now can observe new stars forming out of the remnants of that smoke.

And Allah says in the Quran

“Then He turned to the heaven (universe) when it was smoke..”

Holy Quran (41:11)

Scientist recently discovered that the earth and the universe came from the same original. They were one connected entity, and out of the homogeneous gas they separated.

Allah may he be exalted says..

“have not the disbeliever’s known that the heavens (galaxy, earth, stars sun etc) and the earth where one connected entity before we clove them asunder?...”

Holy Quran (21:30)

From this verse a famous none muslim scientist called Dr. Alfred Kroner who is one of the worlds renowned Geologist said “..it is impossible for the Quran to have known that the earth and the heavens where one connected entity 1400 years ago”

In the Quran, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:

“And it is We Who have constructed the heaven (universe) with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.”

Holy Quran (surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)

And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

And there are thousands more that talk about scientific facts, embryology, Geology, Zoology, mathematics, astronomy etc.


Inshiallah I will address the rest of your response to the origin of life later!

Looking forward to hearing your replies, and thanking you for sharing your religion with me, I hope you don’t mind me asking all this questions

Kind regards

Qurban

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Quarban Ji,

In islam the historical truth claim was that the angel Gabrielle relayed the message of allah to your prophet are you denying this and all those statements from the quoran are from angel Gabrielle you have not provided any proof to the contrary.

“If you love God you will obey his command, pursue what he approves and refrain from what he forbids”

this is true and in Sikhism gurbani is god it is the word which is god because this is the self-expression of the divine lord. Your religion did not come from god it came from an angel in Sikhism we call this farishta ka din not allahs din.

“Now tell me in what way are the Christians showing their love to God?”

nor the Christians nor the muslims are showing their love today because you have not realised the message of god which was to achieve union if a religion caters for the conditions of man the the seeker no longer preaches because they are satiaited with the truth but both the muslims and the Christians are not satisfied and this is what gives birth to proselytization and suffering and this is the reason why Sikhism came onto the scene. The basic category of the the bible is hope that you live in the hope that what is written is true and you will have salvation. The basic category of the Koran is morality that those who will live a moral life will go to paradise, none of these scriptures revealed the path of naam and that is why spirituality ,both in Sufism and in countless Christian circles are more appealing because there is more to religion than observance of pointless rituals. Unfortunately your verses from the qoran and your assertions about precision of quoran are concocted proof which is aimed at stifling the essence of your religion but I will not be taken in by it. In sri guru granth sahib ji the seeker has a direct link with god when we read the verses the same is not true for any other scripture on earth why? – because it is the only word of god on earth.

“You’ve forwarded examples of people entering naam marg, but you have not, proved to me, that this was the right thing to do and it pleased god! Can you proof to me Farid, namdev etc are in heaven, or the alternative in your religion Sikhsm?”

the same can be said about every person who ever lived on this earth their will be no recorded evidence on video so I will have to admit defeat on this point but by all means provide me the proof that you people are living in the lap of luxury in heaven I cant wait to see if your proof is quotes from Koran you can forget it as I could do the same I need to know Islamic doctrine and I have as yet not come across one Islamic scholar who can relay Islamic doctrine without using the Koran, doctrine comes from learning history with respect to your faith it is not inferred by interpreting verses in the Koran cos we can all do that. As for pleasing god have a read of sri guru granth sahib ji I too could shovel a surplus of quotes from my scripture but ultimately we will both be none the wiser this is why I posted the essay on the sikh doctrine did you read this and if so what have you learned about our doctrine?

“No offence taken!”

im pleased

“If Naam marg was revealed by the Sikhsm, and sikhsm was introduced by Guru Nanak– it can be concluded that mankind before the advent of Sikhism and naam marg will be reborn!”

no the path of naam was practised by all saints through out the ages naam is the unstruck melody which pervades the universe it has always existed its just Sikhism made naam marg the purpose of life, there have been plenty before who were also attuned to the naam but the guru made this path easy that’s why you do not have to be a sikh but make no mistake without naam you will be reborn. There is no such thing as sin so therefore rebirth is not a punishment just part and parcel of gods creation.

“if it is then do you feel its fair for God to punish some one without revealing his divine will?

If its not punishment- then I presume it’s a reward- which does not make sense-

Why reward some one who does not follow naam marg-
I presume from these two options you will admit it’s a punishment”

I believe my above comments disqualify these tactical statements. Again you have not read the essay I provided a lot of the questions would have been answered, you see in Sikhism we follow a post modern paradigm we do not believe that god made man in the image of himself, we belive god made creation in the image of the souls purpose this is why all rivers lead to the sea and why there are so many different life forms. Divine essence therefore does not have a mind it is not reasonable or rational so therefore applying reason to practicing Sikhism is a misnomer, divine essence only has the qualities laid out in the mool mantar, islam does not believe that god has a mind either but you have accepted reason as a common frame of reference because we live in an age where science was seen as the driving force of progress, but spirit is the impasse beyond which science can no longer venture and hey presto Sikhism is the tool for the modern age to tap into the naam potential we pick up where science has halted. I do hope you will understand why common sense, contradiction canot be applied to god these ideas have been born through evangelical apologetics, but do ask more and I can clarify further I can even solve the law of non-contradiction riddle.

You have then asked about not knowing why you are suffering etc, in all religions you are asked to accept the will of god suffering is a part of his will when guru arjan dev ji was executed he did not stop his suffering infact he was so imbued with naam that he referred to the hot sand being pourn onto his head a rose petals however compare this with Christ who cried when the nails went through his palms. You have also misunderstood the rebirth and karma, in Sikhism karma works not by matching your every good and bad but by bringing you closer to the naam or further from the naam depending upon your character, we do not need a book to tell us what is good and bad our concscious can tell us that, rules are only there to enable discipline, in Sikhism rules are put in to place so that you can still your body and mind and work on your soul. And let me just say that one who accepts the will of god like myself who has been through plenty in life does not think twice about questioning god because the power of naam destroys all wanderings of the feable mind, reason is for empty faiths which cannot halt the tiresome mind.

“what is it about our self that we are seeking? How do we know we have not realised it already?”

the divine essence within is your mool, guru ji says “maan tu jot swaroop hai apna mool pachaan” mind you are fashioned by the divine now realise your inspiration, when people attune the soul to naam then we achaive joti jot this is a pont by which we recognise a oneness In spirit with the lord and this is our purpose if you want quotes I will be happy to provide them, how do you know? At this moment in time you are living in a dream like state when you are realised then you are not of this material existence you most definitely will know, coincidentally science is also moving towards this approach of maya and the illusion with the advent of the holographic scientific paradigm which was discussed by Michael Talbot.

“How about, the purpose of life is to worship the one who created you; God.”

Worship is not important we bow to god so that we learn humility and fight the ego which is one of the 5 demons but the divine essence exists within all beings it is our only destiny.

“This causes problems- anything that was created did not existed prior to his creation, is your scripture saying God never existed at some point?”

no because the creation is a reflection of god and god exists within the whole of creation, naam is a form of god so to is the gurbani, again you do not understand that contradiction is gods creation, also divine essence is not reasonable because rationale is something us humans choose, we do not believe in an intelligent design we only believe in a divine design. We have our own premises and believe our doctrine to be sovereign you need a reason because you look for one when you have the truth your questions will stop.

“Unless he created another version of himself, which contradicts the concept of one god, or he created a part of himself, which tells me that he wasn’t 100% to start of with!”

no it doesn’t at all, divine essence In Sikhism is not a wobbly blob or an old man with a beard who looks like santa, in Sikhism god is a substance with properties: oneness, creative, self-existent, unborn, formless, truth, no fear, no hatred. Divine essence doesn not follow the laws of science you cannot know the nature of your lord through the mind if you could then Sikhism would not have revealed the way of naam.

“But where does it mention about the Big Bang? I’ve read the entire paragraph, and there is nothing indicating about the big bang, all you have said is God created everything, water, wind, etc.”

when you read with intention then you find your criticism, it says that all sprang forth from the one word which was instantaneous and not a period of days it does not have to mention big bang even scientistis have agreed that the guru granth sahib ji does show an accurate reflection of big bang theory and finally your claim that guru nanak come along later and repeats what the quoran has said is another misnomer because the jews and Christians and muslims all said their was one god so why the need for the repetition all your arguments could not only be used with islam but also of non-religious entities such why feminism comes to the east when it started in the west if this is the logic with which you prove your faith then you are welcome to it it is of no consequence to me whatsoever I have an understanding of sikh doctrine at a scholarary level I therefore find it incredibly hard to refute large chunks of questions and this is why I have left a lot of your questions unanswered would it be possible if you can when responding put the questions in number format I can then tackle them one by one.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Gurfateh,

ISDhillon

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hello ISDhillion!

You Said

In Islam the historical truth claim was that the angel Gabrielle relayed the message of allah to your prophet are you denying this and all those statements from the Quran are from angel Gabrielle you have not provided any proof to the contrary.

I can see this getting a bit confusing- let’s start from the beginning

Your first statement in this matter

” koran says that it was the word of an angel called Gabrielle

I challenged you to produce your proof, by finding a single verse where the “Koran Says” that is the word of Angel Gabriel

Have you found it yet?

Its quite painless to surmise that your finding it difficult to grasp the difference between a messenger and the person who sent the message, even after three simple analogies, which included my much admired postman analogy!

Or are you?

The very first statement from your latest post, does show some signs that you have finally cracked it? If not then in this state of confusion you are contradicting yourself?

Let me show –

Your statements that-


” koran says that it was the word of an angel called Gabrielle”
“Your religion did not come from god it came from an angel”


But in your very first statement you contradict the two above claims!

“In islam the historical truth claim was that the angel Gabrielle relayed the message of allah to your prophet”

Yes! Angel Gabriel (PBUH) was just relaying the message, that’s all!

Let me give two more analogies-


If A relays a message from B to C- in what way does that make A the source of the message, which is what you were implying at the beginning when you said Gabriel’s (PBUH) message!

If i write a computer application using Visual Basic (an application development tool)
I write the codes for an application which will make all the employees work easier in an company called earth- and I send the codes down to that company through my servant- in what ways does that make my servant the architect of the application-

If you still fail to see the difference between a messenger and the person that sent the message let me know, I have some more analogies!

Unfortunately I am running out of time, but inshiallah address the rest of your response later!


By the way

You Said

“you have not provided any proof to the contrary”

I thought I had,

(Alif Lam Mim). The revelation of the Book (this Qur'an) in which there is no doubt, is from the Lord of all that exists

Holy Quran (32:1-2).

More Later inshiallah

Kind Regards

Qurban

[ISDhillon]

Quarban Ji,

with respect your postman messenger analogy is incompatible with sikh doctrine because man has an unbroken lineage with his creator the bhagat becomes the guru, then why would we ever need a post man in between, whther or not it is or is not written in the koran is besides the point the simple fact is that you yourself are in agreeance with the nature of your revelation ie, indirect. Secondly the message you bring is an opinion of god, my guru brings god in his words this diference is what sets apart direct and indirect revelation this is why the guru granth sahib ji is reverred cos the word is god let me add here a quote from the essay i referred you to earlier so you may become wiser to my assertions:

"the Sikh conception of the Word is qualitatively different from the Christian view. In Sikh thought, the Spirit, besides becoming immanent in the societal category Khalsa, also, becomes determinate in the Word (bani) which, as such, is elevated and revered as the eternal 'living' Guru in the form of Sri Guru Granth. Christian thought holds that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. " The Word became 'flesh', that is, incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ who, as such, is the focal point of the faith and worship and not the Bible, the Scripture. That is why the Western studies of the Sikh Scripture are so off the tangent, for the concept of the Divine spirit becoming determinate in the Word (bani) is incomprehensible in the Christian perspective in which the process is reversed : The Word becoming embodied in the person of Jesus Christ"

I hope you understand the difference in our religious scriptures and the sovereignity of the sikh doctrine.

ISDhillon

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”


Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Hi ISdhillion!

After the third time of asking, you have yet to produce a proof to back up your claim that the “Koran Says that it was the word of angel Gabriel!”

You are still unable to intelligently explain how the Quran is not Gods word!

any way I will address this and your previous post later in great detail, I have already seen Major flaws in it!

later inshiallah but as its 12:44 am I have got work tomorrow-

but before I go I just wanted to say that due to other commitments not to mention the high magnitude of information being exchanged between me and you , you might experience delays in my responses- But inshiallah they will be addressed-

My aim will be to address any questions that you raise and compile a response to the answers your provide to my questions by Monday or Tuesday of each Week-

I understand that sometimes when too many questions are raised; it is a good idea to number them I apologise for not doing so, but next time inshiallah I will,

I would like to thank you in advance for your patience and willingness to share your religion with me!

Before I go I would be grateful if you could provide answers to the following list of questions, it probably has been answered in your post- but If you could be kind enough to provide short, clear and concise answers-so that there is no room for doubt-

7- Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)
8- Is it the word of God
9- How was it revealed, and who was it revealed to
10- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God
11- is Dasam granth a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your Holy scripture, i.e. was it revealed by god
12- is Bachitar Natak a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your holy scripture i.e. was it revealed by god

Kind Regards
Qurban

[QURBAN]

Thats starnge i could of sworn that i numbered them 1-2-3... it came out as 7-8-9-

any way the list of questions again are

1 - Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)
2 - Is it the word of God
3- How was it revealed, and who was it revealed to
4- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God
5- is Dasam granth a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your Holy scripture, i.e. was it revealed by god
6- is Bachitar Natak a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your holy scripture i.e. was it revealed by god

where ever possible please provide yes no answers, if not possible, a short clear answers please, bearing in mind i am not a scholar in your relgion!

Kind Regards

Qurban

[ISDhillon]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!!!!

Satsriakal Quarban Ji,

Sorry can’t give you yes no answers and please find the flaws in my arguments I also wish to correct your misunderstanding of sikh doctrine. DON’T PUT A SPIN ON THESE AYATS, they say the message came from the angel jibreel even though the word is not written this is accepted by all muslims even you:

Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.
The Holy Qur'an, Surah 81, Ayat 19-21.

Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
The Holy Qur'an, Sura 16, Ayat 102.

I do not care for the opinions of angels as they lick the dust of my gurus feet, and as such the guru made us into angels have a look at asa di vaar pauri 1 it says it in their also.

1 - Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)

no sri guru granth sahib ji is our guru as it was given a formal investiture by sri guru gobind singh ji, adi granth was a compilation of all direct revelations the gurus understood to be imbued with naam and they are the toughstone of guruship therefore knew what could and couldn’t be classed as kachee (unripe) and pakki (ripe) bani, guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory because the original was stolen by thieves who wanted the knowledge for themselves and the guru therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons.

2 - Is it the word of God

no it is not the word of god, the word is god

3- How was it revealed, and who was it revealed to

the nature of direct revelation is everything that comes out of the mouth of one who achieves union I think you refer to this as fannah it is not merely a message as it is the expression of the divine, now direct revelation can be revealed to all people if they become bhagats but they will never be guru because that is a special investiture of authority by god. Ie, our prophet never left it is here today and everyday for the rest of eternity.

4- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God

it definitely is please provide evidence to the contrary.

5- is Dasam granth a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your Holy scripture, i.e. was it revealed by god

no dasam granth is a compilation of poetry par excellence attributed to dasmesh pitta sri guru gobind singh ji that’s why it has the title dasam, this is not the guru but just a highly reverred book, we read it as we would a book we do not give it guru status.

6- is Bachitar Natak a chapter in a book, if so which book, is it part of your holy scripture i.e. was it revealed by god

bachittar natak is the autobiography of guru gobind singh ji it is a chapter in dasam granth, dasam granth contains many things which are fascinating to read but ultimately that is all it will remain.

I will revisit every Monday and Tuesday as you have suggested.

Raabrakha,

ISDhillon

[akr4m]

:sl:

To my none-muslim friends peace and blessing be upon you

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
(Iklas 112)

Hello ISDhillon and Qurban, i was reading through your discussion, i was hoping if i could join in, because i am itching to get my views across on this matter.

inshallah, i will address my message in a few days.

Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add
(Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #109)

:w:
:)

[Mohsin]

Ye akhi join in its an open discussion

[akr4m]

:sl: :)

To my none-muslim friends peace and blessing be upon you

In the name of ALLAH most gracious, most merciful

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
(Iklas 112)


Hello ISDhillion! How you doin? I have read your discussion with brother Qurban, I’ll have to say it is very interesting the way you have explained Sikhism. Thank you for trying to explain what your religion is about. However I have some things to say about this matter I hope you don’t mind?

To proceed, you said (IsDillion)

The basic category of the the bible is hope that you live in the hope that what is written is true and you will have salvation. The basic category of the Koran is morality that those who will live a moral life will go to paradise,

Your wrong my friend- you may be a scholar in Sikhism, but with all due respect your knowledge in Islam leaves much to be desired- I would have to say your reaching fantastic conclusion. Firstly you don’t even know Foss-ha the Quranic language; hence you’re in no position to interpret the Quran. So I think you should leave this to us Muslims, don’t you think? Since we know how to read the language; a language which is known to be the best literature on the face of this earth.

You said

In sri guru granth sahib ji the seeker has a direct link with god when we read the verses the same is not true for any other scripture on earth why? – because it is the only word of god on earth.

Not very convincing……….I could say the same about the Holy Quran. Provide proof my friend, provide clear evidence.

You said:

I need to know Islamic doctrine and I have as yet not come across one Islamic scholar who can relay Islamic doctrine without using the Koran, doctrine comes from learning history with respect to your faith it is not inferred by interpreting verses in the Koran cos we can all do that.

Are you being serious! I can’t believe what I am reading-

This matter of religion is so important, and you’re saying that you’d rather follow Doctrine from a man, rather than Gods revelation?
And yes it is true we always use the Quran, because it’s the word of God, and God doesn’t make mistakes, but it appears to me that you’d rather rely on doctrines produced by humans who are prone to errors. So when it comes to making a decision such as choosing the right path, I think we all would agree to use the direct source i.e. from God.

And if we followed your logic (i.e. following the doctrines) we will be following a man made religion, or to be more précise, human opinions and views regarding the scripture.
It sounds like the source of the knowledge you have in your religion today is not from God but rather from history i.e. mankind. I think I can see the difference between our religions- only one follows the will of God.

You said

no the path of naam was practised by all saints through out the ages naam is the unstruck melody which pervades the universe it has always existed its just Sikhism made naam marg the purpose of life,

there have been plenty before who were also attuned to the naam but the guru made this path easy that’s why you do not have to be a sikh but make no mistake without naam you will be reborn. There is no such thing as sin so therefore rebirth is not a punishment just part and parcel of gods creation.-

Firstly, does the God you believe in want us to follow the path of naam

Yes –or-No?

If it’s yes-

Then if you don’t follow the path of naam, then you are going against the will of God- and as a consequence you will be re-born!

According to what you have said, in Sikhism, acting against the will of God in is not classified as a sin, hence since there is no sin then there is no such thing as punishment rather a part and parcel of life!

If there are no sin, and no punishment for going against the will of god then what’s the incentive following the will of God-?

According to your statement, in Sikhism, criminal acts such as robbery, rape and Murder cannot classified as sin, since sin does not exist- hence their will be no punishment rather a rebirth which is part and parcel of life- in what way is this concept beneficial to mankind here on earth? What has the God in Sikhism done to address such issues-


So far after reading most of your explanation about your religion it has caused more harm then good, all you have done is just create contradictions in your dialogue exchange with brother Qurban. The brother asked you initially is it a punishment or reward for not following naam marg, which is according to you the will of God- and after deciphering your response, you’re saying “there is no such thing as sin hence there is no punishment its just a part and parcel of life”. With all due respect this shows me the guidance that has been revealed by your God is not complete, as it doesn’t address an important concept of promoting peace on earth-there is no law in order. We can do what ever we like in this world, then be reborn with no punishment. And keep doing so, until one day we decide, I am bored of this world hence lets follow naam, and the loop is over. So in one way or another we all will end up in heaven eventually, depending on how much time we waste to find naam. And what about the concept of justice, who provides true justice? What happens when a murderer is not punished in this life, where is the justice for the victim? the victims family?
Don’t really think this is very convincing that this idea is from God.

This is what I make of this whole concept of naam so far from the information you have supplied in this forum, which to say the least is very confusing-


A- Supposedly God wants us to follow the path of naam marg, if you don’t follow it you will be re-born. From this its quite clear that reborn is a consequence of going against god’s will!

B- Naam Marg has always existed- “naam is the unstruck melody which pervades the universe it has always existed “

C- Naam Marg (Gods will) was not a purpose before the advent of Sikhism “Sikhism made naam marg the purpose of life”,

D- Guru came and made this path easy- so before Guru the path was hard?



Questions



1- If naam Marg was not the purpose for mankind before the advent of Sikhism, why then punish them with re-birth? And what was their purpose in life? Its Not there fault God hid away from them such an important thing such as naam.
2- if naam marg was not the purpose before the advent of Sikhism, why did those saints attuned to it, how did they know about this concept,
3- How comes they did not teach it other people- a bit selfish don’t you think, I mean if they new that without following this path they will be reborn, why not preach it to others-
4- Are their any historical facts supporting the existence of naam marg, and these saints who followed it, before the advent of Sikhism, or are you just making things as you go along.
5- in what point of time in history did this Guru come and made this path easy?
6- what was his name?
7- If God is fair, and he wants us to follow the path of naam, and it is his will, why make the concept so hard to follow, that it required some one else to arrive and make it easy?

Off course this whole concept of following naam will be classified as man made nonsense designed to misguide mankind into eternal damnation. Unless you have proof to back it up.


You said

no it doesn’t at all, divine essence In Sikhism is not a wobbly blob or an old man with a beard who looks like santa, in Sikhism god is a substance with properties: oneness, creative, self-existent, unborn, formless, truth, no fear, no hatred. Divine essence doesn not follow the laws of science you cannot know the nature of your lord through the mind if you could then Sikhism would not have revealed the way of naam.

The smokescreen you have just created to avoid the question by Qurban was futile- you were asked
“This causes problems- anything that was created did not existed prior to his creation, is your scripture saying God never existed at some point?”

Then you replied saying
”no because the creation is a reflection of god and god exists within the whole of creation”-

“divine essence In Sikhism is not a wobbly blob or an old man with a beard who looks like santa, in Sikhism god is a substance with properties: oneness, creative, self-existent, unborn, formless, truth, no fear, no hatred”

Firstly, your saying that when their was nothing created by God, God didn’t exist. Because you’re saying: the creation was a reflection of god, so if the creation was not there then there is nothing to reflect? Hence no God

Now to address the 2nd point you raised, in what way does this solve the problems brother Qurban raised?

You said “God is a substance with properties-“

The properties are – Oneness- how can that be when he created himself?- if he created another version of himself- that makes it two gods- if its not and he is still one, then he must of not existed prior to his creation- i.e. 0.

If he created himself, he must of not existed prior to his creation, but that in it self causes logical flaws, as if he was not their, then he ceased to exists hence how can he create himself- if he existed and is self existence then why the need to create himself. This makes no sense what’s so ever, I thought you where a scholar?

You said

DON’T PUT A SPIN ON THESE AYATS, they say the message came from the angel jibreel even though the word is not written this is accepted by all muslims even you:

the sentence to note here is:
“even though the word is not written”

If the word is not written, then where are you getting your ideas from? Like I said before, you don’t even understand the Quranic language, then what are you doing trying to explain to us what the Ayat means, and whether we should or shouldn’t put a spin to these Ayats, just because you said it means this and we should believe it? Have you forgotten you’re a scholar in Sikhism not Islam.

Anyways just to explain what this Ayat means.

Verily this is the word of a most honourable Messenger, Endued with Power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne, With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.
The Holy Qur'an, Surah 81, Ayat 19-21.

Meaning, indeed this Qur'an is being conveyed by a noble messenger, where does it say that Quran is the word of a most honourable messenger. And the key word in this passage is messenger, which I’ve realised you have trouble understanding.

The second verse you've quoted to defend your arguement, that the Quran is the word of angel Gabrielle is:

Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
The Holy Qur'an, Sura 16, Ayat 102.

Yes!... From thy lord in truth, once again you have defeated yourself in this argument.

Goodness me! Did you even read this passage before posting it, “the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth” – which in plane English means angel Gabrielle brought this revelation FROM ALLAH. So what does that make the angel, the source of the message or a messenger? Even a 10 year old kid would easily answer it saying he is just a messenger. And you claim to be a scholar? Are you sure you’re a scholar? I am sure a scholar knows the meaning of the word “messenger”

Brother Qurban has provided many analogies, of what it requires being a messenger and you still can’t quite grasp the concept of a messenger can you? Or may be your just being ignorant.
I mean if we all started acting ignorant like you, then I have to say everything you put forward from your scripture are just your words- not gods. Since you believe, when the angel Gabrielle passed the message from God to the prophet (pbuh) it’s was the angel’s word, then I could say the scripture your quoting from your holy book, are not Gods word rather it is yours, even when your just passing this message to me. Therefore if we stick to our ignorant idea and refuse to understand what a messenger is then no one will get anywhere.

You said

”I do not care for the opinions of angels as they lick the dust of my gurus feet”

That’s just a matter of opinion and frankly I don’t think any one cares less about yours- And there is so need to get all childish, come on you’re a scholar, I thought you would have passed that phase by now.


Brother Quraban said:

Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)?

And you said

no sri guru granth sahib ji is our guru as it was given a formal investiture by sri guru gobind singh ji, adi granth was a compilation of all direct revelations the gurus understood to be imbued with naam and they are the toughstone of guruship therefore knew what could and couldn’t be classed as kachee (unripe) and pakki (ripe) bani, guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory because the original was stolen by thieves who wanted the knowledge for themselves and the guru therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons.

Why where there changes made to the original - wasn’t the original good enough? I mean if Gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji message from memory, why didn’t he just rewrite the entire message, why did he make changes. So from what you just said, the original scripture doesn’t exist, because you said the original was by guru granth sahib ji which was stolen. And you also said “the guru therefore made changes to the original”, and when changes are made to the original, it is not in its original text anymore.

brother Qurban said
Is it the word of God?

You said

no it is not the word of god, the word is god

Are you saying the word is God? Is that something you’re saying, or is it said in the scripture? Because if it has, then I have to say that a thief has stolen God.
Because you said
“original was stolen by thieves who wanted the knowledge for themselves”So if the word is God and the scripture (which contains the word (i.e. God)) was stolen, then was God stolen by a thief?


Qurban saidis
“Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God

You said

it definitely is please provide evidence to the contrary.

Well from my understand, after reading your explainiation of this passage it says:
“In Asa Di Var, Pauri 1, page 463 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: "He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself,”
"Kita pasao eko kavao" Guru Nanak in JAP JI (Pauri 13)
Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji teaches - "In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him


As the borther Qurban said “this causes problems- anything that was created did not existed prior to his creation, is your scripture saying God never existed at some point?
This contradicts with “"In the beginning God was all alone and there was no one beside Him””.

And you still haven’t replied to this illogical statement.

If God existed then why was there the need to create him self?-
Unless he created another version of himself, which contradicts the concept of one God.

Please forgive me if I have come off rude, that was not my intention. Have a nice day ISDhillon.

May Allah guide you

Say: If the sea were ink for the words of my Lord, the sea would surely be consumed before the words of my Lord are exhausted, though We were to bring the like of that (sea) to add (Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #109)

:w: :)

[Mohsin]

Mashallah good questions

I want to ask something aswell

The Guru empasises that GOD IS THE ONLY CREATOR and all was created at His Will. The Creation (Big Bang) theory of Science became popular in the 1960's while Guru Nanak explained the creation in the 1500's.

Where exactly does Guru Nanek say that?

In Siri Rag, page 19, the Guru says: "From the True Lord came the Wind, and from the Wind, came the Water. From the Water sprang the material World, and He, the Lord, pervades all. ......"

How did water come from wind?

1. Page4 Line 18 Raag Jap: Guru Nanak Dev

vKqu n pwieE kwdIAw ij ilKin lyKu kurwxu ]
vakhath n paaeiou kaadheeaa j likhan laekh kuraan ||
That time is not known to the Qazis, who study the Koran.
2. Page24 Line 11 Raag Sriraag: Guru Nanak Dev

pMj vKq invwj gujwrih pVih kqyb kurwxw ]
panj vakhath nivaaj gujaarehi parrehi kathaeb kuraanaa ||
You may chant your prayers five times each day; you may read the Bible and the Koran.
3. Page140 Line 18 Raag Maajh: Guru Nanak Dev

imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]
mihar maseeth sidhak musalaa hak halaal kuraan ||
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.
4. Page329 Line 12 Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

khq kbIr Bly Asvwrw ] byd kqyb qy rhih inrwrw ]3]31]
kehath kabeer bhalae asavaaraa || baedh kathaeb thae rehehi niraaraa ||3||31||
Says Kabeer, those who remain detached from the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible are the best riders. ||3||31||
5. Page397 Line 7 Raag Aasaa: Guru Arjan Dev

byd kqyb sMswr hBw hUM bwhrw ]
baedh kathaeb sansaar habhaa hoon baaharaa ||
He is beyond the world of the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible.
6. Page518 Line 7 Raag Goojree: Guru Arjan Dev

quDu iDAwiein@ byd kqybw sxu KVy ]
thudhh dhhiaaeinih baedh kathaebaa san kharrae ||
The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You.
7. Page722 Line 19 Raag Tilang: Guru Nanak Dev

muslmwnIAw pVih kqybw kst mih krih Kudwie vy lwlo ]
musalamaaneeaa parrehi kathaebaa kasatt mehi karehi khudhaae vae laalo ||
The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
8. Page885 Line 10 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

koeI pVY byd koeI kqyb ]
koee parrai baedh koee kathaeb ||
Some read the Vedas, and some the Koran.
9. Page897 Line 3 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Arjan Dev

kurwn kqyb qy pwku ]3]
kuraan kathaeb thae paak ||3||
more sacred than the Koran and the Bible. ||3||
10. Page903 Line 4 Raag Raamkalee: Guru Nanak Dev

kil prvwxu kqyb kurwxu ]
kal paravaan kathaeb kuraan ||
In Kali Yuga, the Koran and the Bible have become famous.
11. Page1036 Line 5 Raag Maaroo: Guru Nanak Dev

byd kqyb n isMimRiq swsq ]
baedh kathaeb n sinmrith saasath ||
There were no Vedas, Korans or Bibles, no Simritees or Shaastras.
12. Page1083 Line 17 Raag Maaroo: Guru Arjan Dev

kurwxu kqyb idl mwih kmwhI ]
kuraan kathaeb dhil maahi kamaahee ||
Practice within your heart the teachings of the Koran and the Bible;
13. Page1193 Line 16 Raag Basant: Saint Kabir

isMimRiq maulI isau kqyb ]2]
sinmrith moulee sio kathaeb ||2||
The Simritees blossom forth, along with the Koran and the Bible. ||2||
14. Page1290 Line 4 Raag Malaar: Guru Nanak Dev

mwsu purwxI mwsu kqybNØI chu juig mwsu kmwxw ]
maas puraanee maas kathaebanaee chahu jug maas kamaanaa ||
Meat is allowed in the Puraanas, meat is allowed in the Bible and the Koran. Throughout the four ages, meat has been used.
15. Page1350 Line 5 Raag Parbhaatee: Saint Kabir

byd kqyb khhu mq JUTy JUTw jo n ibcwrY ]
baedh kathaeb kehahu math jhoothae jhoothaa jo n bichaarai ||
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

How does any of this prove Qur'an is not the word of God, why should we do the research, you're making the allegation, you bring the proof!

4. Page329 Line 12 Raag Gaurhee: Saint Kabir

Says Kabeer, those who remain detached from the Vedas, the Koran and the Bible are the best riders. ||3||31||

This contradicts the below

15. Page1350 Line 5 Raag Parbhaatee: Saint Kabir

Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

Or can you expalin what it actually means, i don't quite understand it

4- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation from God

it definitely is please provide evidence to the contrary.

Well, if it was thenh surely god would know everything there is to know about other religions, so why is it that it says:

circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?
ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥
अरध सरीरी नारि न छोडै ता ते हिंदू ही रहीऐ ॥३॥
araDh sareeree naar na chhodai taa tay hindoo hee rahee-ai. ||3||

How does circumcision make one a muslim, where does it say that, i mean reverts don't get circumcised, to become a muslim you just have to testify "There is none worthy of worship but Allah, and Muhammed is the Messenger PBUH of Allah"

To me this proves GGS is not word of God

Also can you explain to me how is it Guru Nanek went on hajj, seeing as only muslims can go on hajj, so are you saying Guru Nanek and said he's a muslim, especially as its a "useless ritual" as many sikhs put it

[QURBAN]

Peace to Those who follow the Guidance!

Excellent questions Bro Akr4m and Moss!

Hi ISdhillion , i hope you have subscribed to this forum,hopefully you will get my message- i will be busy this weekend, hence will try and complie my response to the answers you have provided to my latest questions later on this evening inshaillah, as brothers Akram and Moss have raised very good questions i belive you might have your hands full in answering them, so if you need time to respond to those then let me know buy the 9pm this evening which is 4 and half hours from now, other wise i am going to have to post my answers and questions to you, as i will be to busy this weekend- but by all means take your time in responding to us!

Kind Regards

Qurban

[Mohsin]

Br. Heera Singh was trying to defend Sikhism here earlier, but after some tough questions he's not responed for over a week, i hope IS Dhillion don't do the same

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal akr4m Ji

“Since we know how to read the language; a language which is known to be the best literature on the face of this earth.”

I don’t think it’s the best language on earth nor do I think it is known to be the best language on earth this is just your personal opinion and my statements on Koran are not my personal opinion my gurus knew the deep message of islam also


“Not very convincing……….I could say the same about the Holy Quran. Provide proof my friend, provide clear evidence.”

It looks like we are going to go around in circles let me say once again Sikhism follows a post modern paradigm ie, the truth is subjective because truth in sikhism is sat and sat is a property of divine essence, when you ask for proof you are referring to sach or right, righteousness of whether or not the scripture does link man with god which will always be subjective as the guru granth sahib ji was meant for that purpose the Koran does not believe in self-realisation it is a farce by your scholars therefore how can you ask for a proof which is wholly subjective.

“This matter of religion is so important, and you’re saying that you’d rather follow Doctrine from a man, rather than Gods revelation?”

this statement shows you do not understand what doctrine is when you say would you rather not follow the revelation you are referring to doctrine ie, you are saying Islamic doctrine involves surrendering to your scripture if this is the case then you do not need to reason to the truth do you understand the difference between practicing islam and scholorary discourse?, doctrine is not a scholarary discourse, it is the historical-cum-religious formulation.

“It sounds like the source of the knowledge you have in your religion today is not from God but rather from history i.e. mankind”

if this is what you have got from my discussion so far I seriously advise you to re-read what I have said you are embarrassing yourself I don’t know a politer way of telling you that. These claims that Sikhism is man-made is born out of fear and jealousy, we have no qualm with anyone we are here to uphold the right of all people to practice their faith without infringement.

“what’s the incentive following the will of God-?”

there is none how can their be reward when there is no punishment, Sikhism is a life affirming religion we see life as an opportunity to fulfil our destiny, we don’t do naam simran for want of anything you have to love the name of god and if you do that is the will of god and if you don’t that is the will of god also.

“what way is this concept beneficial to mankind here on earth? What has the God in Sikhism done to address such issues-“

to be furthered from the destiny of human birth is great I think there is no amount of hell than to not achieve salvation, the god in Sikhism is the doer of good and evil cos he created the opportunity for both when man is operating in dualism.

“important concept of promoting peace on earth-there is no law in order”

this is also correct their has never been law and order on earth in muslim and non-muslim countries, peace is a myth, in Sikhism we have a holy army called the khalsa which was created to uphold the sovereignity of man, man is a sovereign being cos the divine exists within man, when people understand this their will be no chaos.

I have not contradicted myself anywhere please show with clarity where I have.

“And what about the concept of justice, who provides true justice? What happens when a murderer is not punished in this life, where is the justice for the victim? the victims family?”

many people say “what did that child do to deserve being molested” but only god is the knower through countless births the deeds with which the cause of being molested became manifest, say “tera bhana mitta lagai” your will is sweet to me every time you suffer and your fascination for revenge will dissipate.

“Don’t really think this is very convincing that this idea is from God”

the dead never speak so the same could be said of all religions I think your idea of law is a disgrace, idea about morality stand exploded you can be the most moral person on earth or the greatest sinner the end product is the same you will create your hell and heaven right here back where you left. The guru never executed anyone in fact they gave their own lifes so that supposedly transgressors could live, when life is an opportunity then you can only kill those who wish to take that opportunity away including sick religious jusctice like shariah, I have spoken to people from iran and they tell me that the muslims today would have us believe that true shariah is not being practiced anywhere in this world yet they also say that they never want to see the true shariah either because we don’t need to know the true essence of any religion to know what barbarity is, god gave us a conscience for that. Please readjust your maladaptive thoughts islam means submission shariah was only possible when the prophet was here we can never submit to clerics cos we don’t love them nor do we see the glory of islam in the clerics who interpret shariah.

“From this its quite clear that reborn is a consequence of going against god’s will!”

all is the will of god tell me where does the will of god start and stop?, to not follow naam marg is also the will of god, some people in our religion had come through countless births before they finally practiced naam.

“why then punish them with re-birth? And what was their purpose in life? Its Not there fault God hid away from them such an important thing such as naam.”

Who’s punishing?, god never hid away from anyone its just the truth comes out with time and the final truth is Sikhism I told you before that people practiced naam with difficulty including the sufi tradition which existent before Sikhism, I think they called it anullhaq.

“why did those saints attuned to it, how did they know about this concept,”

religions were established for the seeker to have a relationship with the divine but those with vested interests distorted the message and instead of practicing prior preach, they today preach prior practice, however their were a minority in all faiths which understood the deeper message because they contemplated the scripture and thus revealed the diamond of naam unto themselves.

“How comes they did not teach it other people- a bit selfish don’t you think, I mean if they new that without following this path they will be reborn, why not preach it to others-“

they did, mansur preached it whilst their was a moshairaah and was hanged for saying it, sarmad preached and was beheaded by aurangzeb because he said than mohammed did not go to god god was in mohammed, you see all the questions you have asked are easily answerable in SGGS if you read it it will surprise you how profound the response wil be that’s why in Pakistan more and more university are opening schools for sikh studies because they know that naam is the future it satisfies the conditions of man like no other religion has ever done before, that’s why other religions are involved in proselytizing.

“Are their any historical facts supporting the existence of naam marg, and these saints who followed it, before the advent of Sikhism, or are you just making things as you go along.”

Apart from Sikhism, no. if that is what you need then rebirth is your only destiny ther will never be a materialistic expression of naam other than gurbani in written and kirtan format. The saints prior to Sikhism have their bani in SGGS and they refer to naam and no I am not making things up I suggest you watch your mouth when you have dialogue with me I am not going to talk to someone with an attitude.

“in what point of time in history did this Guru come and made this path easy?”

kaljug

“what was his name?”

bani guru guru hai bani – guru is the word and the word is the guru,
the vehicle for the word was originally flesh in 10 forms from nanak to gobind and the vehicle became paper for the spiritual aspect of guru in the form of guru granth sahib ji and the temporal aspect became immersed in the brotherhood known as khalsa.

“If God is fair, and he wants us to follow the path of naam, and it is his will, why make the concept so hard to follow, that it required some one else to arrive and make it easy?”

because that is his will

nanak eh khel kattan hai – nanak says this is a dangerous game.

“Off course this whole concept of following naam will be classified as man made nonsense designed to misguide mankind into eternal damnation. Unless you have proof to back it up.”

Oh really by whom? You perhaps and the other bigots.

“your saying that when their was nothing created by God, God didn’t exist. Because you’re saying: the creation was a reflection of god, so if the creation was not there then there is nothing to reflect? Hence no God”

no you are misunderstood let me remove the smokescreen, god is sargun and nirgun, with form and without form this is a contradiction and that is ok because divine essence is not rational that is not the nature of our god if it is yours then that’s ok but we will not change the nature of god just to hijack science so we can build our own agenda, creation was borne out of nothingness, becase creation is something and something is creation, but nothing is not god just the absence of creation ie, we can never know what the nature of god is other than truth the same can be said of our spirit I call god nothing but I know he exists.

“The properties are – Oneness- how can that be when he created himself?- if he created another version of himself- that makes it two gods- if its not and he is still one, then he must of not existed prior to his creation- i.e. 0. “

divine essence is one ie the unity of spirit, but at the same time the spirit is exactly the same as god but not god at the same time, and yes this is also a contradiction and that is ok. Matter is not another version of himself just his creation and the reflection of god in his creation reveals the prupose of his creation which is self-realisation, ie all water ends up in the sea but keeps its separate identity at the same time I hope you understand this let me know if I have created a smoke screen.

“how can he create himself- if he existed and is self existence then why the need to create himself. This makes no sense what’s so ever, I thought you where a scholar?”

god created logic you are second guessing the mind of god and I am telling you god has no mind and that god has not created an intelligent design but a divine design,your line of reasoning came from an apologetic agenda from old school evangelists it is not a part of Islamic doctrine and it is foolish and wishful thinking on your behalf to ask the nature of divine essence as if it were a materialistic entity with spatial parameters. I never said I was a scholar but I have studied Sikhism in its sovereign perspective, you however have approached the study from an unequal footing you have applied premises which were never inherent in the Koran and therefore you ultimately deny the sovereignity of your faiths doctrine by adopting a common frame of reference, a little word called post modernism do a google search it’s a wealth of info.

“which in plane English means angel Gabrielle brought this revelation FROM ALLAH.”

Which is indirect and I am telling you that gurbani is god because direct revelation has a definition it is not a message or personal opinion it is divine exprexxion the Koran is not perhaps 10 year old kids are more wiser. And the messenger is angel Gabrielle in those ayats youre not denying that are you? Again your post man analagies don’t mean squat to me I hope this is not childish quite frankly from me to you.

“Why where there changes made to the original - wasn’t the original good enough?”

what changes, and the guru can do whatever they like every letter came from god I wish they could add some more its all god, we can never fully sing the prises of god, revelation is never full and final only salvation is.

“So from what you just said, the original scripture doesn’t exist, because you said the original was by guru granth sahib ji which was stolen. And you also said “the guru therefore made changes to the original”, and when changes are made to the original, it is not in its original text anymore”

what a polluted stream of consciousness, all the gurus are the same jot/flame it doesn’t matter if a 100 changes were made the guru can do what they like who are you?.

“then was God stolen by a thief?”

yes this is true well done, what is your point?, waho waho bani nirankar hai – wow wow bani is god – this is from SGGS.

“And you still haven’t replied to this illogical statement.”

Again you need to make a paradigm shift when studying Sikhism your applying a tool of interpretation which has a premise which contradicts the self-definition of Sikhism.

I am not offended at all please ask more questions I have to say though this response was incredibly tiring I hope you will read the essay on the sikh doctrine before engaging in debate otherwise this debate will be going round in circles.

Gurfateh

ISDhillon

Satsriakal Moss Ji

“Where exactly does Guru Nanek say that?”

in the mool mantar which is on the opening of every hymn in guru granth sahib ji.

“How did water come from wind?”

when cold air meets warm air it causes rain.

“How does any of this prove Qur'an is not the word of God, why should we do the research, you're making the allegation, you bring the proof!”

our religion is the evidence that islam is not the final revelation if the Koran teaches that islam is the final revelation then Sikhism is the only evidence which proves your faith to be un true because god would never say that and then start Sikhism but I understand the shortcomings of angels, which then begs the question is the Koran really the word of god or the word of a messenger called Gabrielle?, btw please don’t refer to dr zakir naik for your answers no offence but this man is the greatest stand up comedian in the world his discourse on Islam is shocking.


“Or can you expalin what it actually means, i don't quite understand it”

kabeer sahib is saying that the Koran should be used as a guide to the individual to inculcate values, but those who repeat the Koran like parrots are not detached they are attached to ritual or religious habit they are not contemplating and learning anything.

“To me this proves GGS is not word of God”

I agree it is not the word of god because the word is god, you need to understand the nature of this verse on circumcision kabeer sahib is saying that circumcision which was originally done prior to islam was for the love of a women and in the shafite school of islam circumcision is an obligation cos its sunnah, how you arrived at the conclusion that this proves its not from god is beyond belief, you see kabber only want the form which is beloeved of god because the destiny of man is such and attracting women is not.

“Also can you explain to me how is it Guru Nanek went on hajj, seeing as only muslims can go on hajj”

only a radiant man of god could have been allowed into the grand mosque and so it was that guru nanak dev ji went their, and there is a family in Saudi Arabia which have one of his slippers, and in Baghdad there is a shrine built in honour of guru nanak where he performed a miracle I can get you info if you want. The hajj was initially so that all the ummah would pray in one direction and therefore that would promote unity as a faith, but with time people became orthodox and started to make out that only sajada would be accepted if the prayer was in the direction of makkah that is all what guru nanak wanted to do was to show that god is everywhere it does not matter which way you pray, muslims had lossed sight of the true islam and I feel the same is happening today.

“Br. Heera Singh was trying to defend Sikhism here earlier, but after some tough questions he's not responed for over a week, i hope IS Dhillion don't do the same”

I don’t think he left cos things got tough, and I will stay as long as I can but their comes a point when it is no longer a struggle with the unbeliever to come to grips with Sikhism it is a struggle with the unbeliever to wrestle with their ego. No offence but sometimes we revoke other faiths to salvage a sense of self-worth I can be humble as I want but at some point I have to say “hey each to their own and good luck to you”.

ISDhillon

Satsriakal Quarban Ji,

I will look forward to hearing from you soon.

ISDhillon

BTW I have been trying to also deal with the Sikhism- islam yahoo group but they don’t want to debate with me the errors on that site are shocking they said they would put my rebuttals on their site but to date have failed to do so if anyone knows these people please let them know that they can debate with me on this site if need be.

WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH!!!!
:thankyou:

[Mohsin]

btw please don’t refer to dr zakir naik for your answers no offence but this man is the greatest stand up comedian in the world his discourse on Islam is shocking.

Lol a bit random, whats Dr Naik got to do with anything
If his discourse is so shocking why are so many people converting through islam because of him, even sikhs appreciate his work, listen to similarities between islam and hinduism and at the end you see all these sikh brothers praising him
What makes him such a stand up comedian, please exaplin?

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!


By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Greetings ISDhillion!

Before I address the answers you have provided to my questions in post 61

I would like to address post number 58

You said

“ with respect your postman messenger analogy is incompatible with sikh doctrine because man has an unbroken lineage with his creator the bhagat becomes the guru, then why would we ever need a post man in between, whther or not it is or is not written in the koran is besides the point the simple fact is that you yourself are in agreeance with the nature of your revelation ie, indirect. Secondly the message you bring is an opinion of god, my guru brings god in his words this diference is what sets apart direct and indirect revelation this is why the guru granth sahib ji is reverred cos the word is god”

At least you have admitted that the Quran is a revelation from God and Not Gabriel, as you say, its god opinions not Gabriel’s

Now let’s move…


“My guru brings god in his words”

“The guru granth sahib ji is reverred cos the word is god”


These statements are not consistent with Gods nature- when something from God becomes God it contradicts Gods attributes, for example a tree is from God, but if you say the tree is God, it restricts God to limitations- tree has a beginning and an end, but God is eternal, no begin or end, Mankind was created by God, but if you say God is man, again similar problems,see if you’re insisting that Word is God your causing contradictions ,because according to you

1- Guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory” i.e. the word (which was God bought by your Guru) had to be re-created, as the original word was stolen by thieves

2- Guru therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons” so God was not perfect in nature to begin with that he had to be modified…


Inshiallah these will be addressed in more details later in my post-

I asked you!

“1 - Is the Adi Granth your holy scripture (aka sri Guru Granth Sahbb)

Your Reply


no sri guru granth sahib ji is our guru as it was given a formal investiture by sri guru gobind singh ji, adi granth was a compilation of all direct revelations the gurus understood to be imbued with naam and they are the toughstone of guruship therefore knew what could and couldn’t be classed as kachee (unripe) and pakki (ripe) bani, guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory because the original was stolen by thieves who wanted the knowledge for themselves and the guru therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons”

I asked you!

“2 - Is it the word of God

Your Reply

“No it is not the word of god, the word is god”

And you question that the Quran is not the word of God-
You provide me with riddles instead of clear answers- and yet you blame me for misunderstanding you!

I asked you if the Guru Granth Sahib is the word of God-

Your answer was quite cryptic to say the least,


So far this is what I make of your answers to questions 1 and 2
I asked you is the Guru Granth Sahib, Gods word, you said

“No it is not the word of god, the word is god”

So according to you, your religion does not contain revelation, or word from God- but rather the word is God-


Your statements such as….


“Word is God” “,
“my guru brings god in his words”
“The guru granth sahib ji is reverred cos the word is god”


….Spawns major problems-

How many words constitutes the whole Guru Granth Sahib how many copies are their, And how many Gods do you believe in?-

With all due respect, but from your answers to question 1 and 2-it can be surmised that your concept of God is some entity…

That can be stolen by a petty thief, - ( “…because the original was stolen by thieves” )

That can be created from memory, ( “guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory” )

That is mutable, as he gets changed- ( “guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib”… “therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons.” )

Inshiallah Lets address the concept of word being God-

God being the Words in the Guru Granth Sahib creates so much problems- how can you restrict the almighty to mere words-words have so much limitations and flaws which does not befit the majesty of the lord of the worlds, but if you insist that the words in the Guru Granth Sahib is God, then with all due respect the concept of God in Sikhsm is some one…

1 - Not Eternal

God himself is not eternal- he gets created from memory, also every time a copy is made of your scripture, i.e. a Printer

2- Not Perfect

God is not perfect in nature in his original form- as he is required to go through alterations and changes,

3- Not Universal

God himself is not universal, you said Guru nanak brings God with his words- what language did Guru nanak speak? If words of Guru Nanak is God, then in what way was God available to the rest of Mankind- to me it seems that God Himself can and needs to be translated, then how is God still in his original form? And how is he perfect in essence?

4- Not All Powerful

God is not all powerful he gets kidnapped/godnapped by petty thief’s
God is under the control of the Guru, as every time Guru speaks, God is awakened
God is under the control of every Sikhs every time they read the divine book in the original language it was revealed in-
God is confined and captured in a book-


5- Not One and Only

Even though the original was with the thief, another version was created from memory, not to mention every time a copy is made of the scripture resulting in more than one god! And also as the guru Brings God in his Word- before the birth of Guru how did God address mankind- who else bought God with their word, and did he speak a different language from the Guru? If he did then in what way does that make God one and only?

There is another way to look at your answers to question 1 and 2, i.e. that your scripture was word from God-

Even if you look at it this way, there is still no evidence that it is-

You said the original was stolen- clearly states that you don’t have an original copy of your divine revelation- what you have here is the word of Guru Gobind Ji, not Gods-

he rewrote the whole Guru Granth Saab from memory- I am sure you can see this raises problems also- how can you be so sure that what he re-wrote is identical to the original- were their others who also memorised too? Were they consistent with each other?- did Guru Gobind jis memory of the original, complement other who memorised as well?, or is just a case of one person memory- which doesn’t prove anything, other than the Guru Granth Sahib is word of Gobind ji not Gods


to summarise- how can you intelligently claim that Guru Granth Sahib was revealed by God or that the Guru Granth Sahib is God? Show me a statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God- from what you have been saying so far and your collegue heera sing in this forum The Adi Granth is a collection of the writings of many Gurus- not the word of God!





4- is “Asa Di Var Pauri 1, Page 463 in Sri Guru Granth Sahib a divine revelation - from God

it definitely is please provide evidence to the contrary.

Ask and it shall be given- Here you go my friend this is my proof-

First of all I would like to address something, you said initially that your scripture is “not the word from God” , but rather “word is God”- now your saying it is the word from God as you answered my question in the affirmative- read the above question 4 and you will see what I mean-

Any way if you are now saying that it is the word from God… then

“In Asa Di Var, Pauri 1, page 463 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji states: , "He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself, and gave Name to Himself. The second thing He created is Nature, wherein He resides and revels in His wonder ......"

It’s clear that these words are of Sri Guru Nanak Ji, who is describing God- and they are NOT Gods word-

Because if it is God talking then he is calling every one that reads the following verses “the creator”


“You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy.
dhaathaa karathaa aap thoon thus dhaevehi karehi pasaao”

True are Your worlds, True are Your solar Systems.
sachae thaerae khandd sachae brehamandd

True are Your realms, True is Your creation.
sachae thaerae loa sachae aakaar |


To summarise-

For page 463 of sri Guru Granth Sahib, to make any logical sense, you will have to admit that its is word of Guru nanak who is simply describing God- and NOT Gods word-


Is Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji God?

No! I didn’t think so!

And don’t tell me that the words in there, are God- because there are more than one word in their,- and these words were stolen by Theifs- recreated from memory, and altered- which inconsistent with the attributes of God, i.e. God is One, God is all powerful, has no beginning, he is immutable - see arguments above-


The Quran contains clear statements from Almighty God (Allah) and it is Him speaking to all of us in the first person. He tells of us our own creation, the creation of all that is the universe and what has happened to those before us and what is to become of us if we do not take heed of the warnings clearly spelled out in His Revelation. He speaks also to Muhammad, peace be upon him, to show that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not making this up himself-
You see any revelation from god will at least give mankind some idea of their origin and purpose- when I asked you if their was any revelations from your God addressing the origin of life you gave me an “mythical” extract from “Bachitar Natak”- and now your confirming that “bachittar natak is the autobiography of guru gobind singh ji it is a chapter in dasam granth, dasam granth contains many things which are fascinating to read but ultimately that is all it will remain”.
So there are no revelations from your God addressing the origin of life- so where does that leave you, how does that make you feel, not knowing with certainty your origin? Whether you evolved from the a single cell organism or created from ear wax, or Adam (PBUH)- If your religion does not address something like your origin, how sure are you about your final destination?

Another thing, like Brother Akr4m points out, if we all started to be ignorant and refused to acknowledge the difference between the source of the message and a messenger than every single text that you have posted from holy book

Like

"He, the Lord, of Himself, created Himself, and gave Name to Himself. The second thing He created is Nature, wherein He resides and revels in His wonder ......"

“From the True Lord came the Wind, and from the Wind, came the Water. From the Water sprang the material World, and He, the Lord, pervades all. ......"

And many more you have provided in post #54

Are…

YOUR WORDS, NOT YOUR GURUS, let alone GODS-


Take Care

Looking forward to your replies,

PS i have not read your most recent reply to Brother Akr4m and Moss question in detail, but intersting to see you admit that the God in Sikhism is unable to defend himself from petty thiefs, as he got stolen- in what way does that make your god the most powerful- , take your time in replying

Kind Regards
Qurban

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Moss Sahib Ji,

“Dr Naik got to do with anything”

he has set the intellectual agenda for the current spate of discourse on islam lol.

“why are so many people converting through islam because of him, even sikhs appreciate his work”

see how many are converting to Sikhism on a per population basis sikhisms conversion is huge and we don’t preach what does that tell you?, and no we Sikhs do not appreciate his discourse there are some however that appreciate any hindu/india bashing ie, 1984.

Satsriakal Quarban Ji,

“At least you have admitted that the Quran is a revelation from God and Not Gabriel, as you say, its god opinions not Gabriel’s”

no I did not I said it was an indirect revelation from god. So we cannot move on and I also provided you with proof that you hankered after from your Koran.

“These statements are not consistent with Gods nature- when something from God becomes God it contradicts Gods attributes”

no the nature of god in Sikhism is different from the nature of god in islam, god is sargun and nirgun – with and without attributes and it is ok if that is a contradiction there is only a problem if you believe divine essence is rational and if god made man in the image of himself then you will have a problem we Sikhs are free from such premises.

“1- Guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory” i.e. the word (which was God bought by your Guru) had to be re-created, as the original word was stolen by thieves”

the divine essence is immanent in the word this is the self-determinating spirit in history, divine expression has no limit we can never fully sing the praises of god so more and more can be recreated but as I said before, those words will also be direct revelation but not gurbani because that was a formal investiture at the hands of guru gobind singh ji and that is sanctioned by god.

“2- Guru therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons” so God was not perfect in nature to begin with that he had to be modified…”

no I never mention the imperctionality of god I have said that you can never fully sing the praises of god ,and that at that time adi granth was not the guru only the guru granth sahib ji is the guru because that was given the title the other book still remains with the sodhi family in kartarpur we have asked for it back but ultimately our guru never gave that book any authority. When someone defiles the guru granth sahib we are hurt but that does not mean that god has been defiled it means that people never learned the divinity of the guru granth sahib ji so in their unwise state they committed a sad act but god lives in many guru granth sahib ji. There is not problem the problem is if you are not letting Sikhism be a measure of its own definition if you are attempting the study of any faith with an attempt to refute it then you automatically apply a frame of reference which is not suitable to the faith and unfortunately you have done the same. Finally perfect and imperfect are a part of his creation also.

“And you question that the Quran is not the word of God-
You provide me with riddles instead of clear answers- and yet you blame me for misunderstanding you!”

I do not question that Koran is not the word of god I am telling you it is not and there are no riddles just misunderstanding on your behalf being melodramatic will not affect me even slightly you have to be able to defend your beliefs if you are to uphold you integrity as a follower of faith, whatever that may be!!!!!


“How many words constitutes the whole Guru Granth Sahib how many copies are their, And how many Gods do you believe in?-“

there is one god and he has many forms like an actor who plays many roles it is never the same form but the actor inside is the same, so too is the lord captured in history for the first time in history in the word of guru granth sahib ji, you line of reason is lame you apply an atomistic nature to god and deny the spirit like nature which is all and nothing, I hope this is not another riddle for you.

“That can be stolen by a petty thief, - ( “…because the original was stolen by thieves” )”

the thief is petty but god is great such words bring salvation too many I don’t know what your point is if by the act in history which caused the book to be stolen somehow undermines the power of god then your god is a reactionary ours is not.

“That can be created from memory, ( “guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib ji from memory” )”

no the guru reproduced the adi granth you have belittled the nature of sri guru gobind singh ji by giving him memory status but guru gobind singh ji dwells in the lord at all times which is why he recalls all 1430 pages. If it were a mere bystander who recalled the 1430 pages I would give your thoughts some consideration.

“That is mutable, as he gets changed- ( “guru gobind singh rewrote the whole of guru granth sahib”… “therefore made changes to the original by incorporating his fathers (9th guru) compositons.” )”

yes god has many forms and he is also formless at the same time, all you have done is said what we believe in which is quite fine but because you wish to engage in false merriment you fashion your argument with bravado but I am openly telling you that the nature of god is as you have suggested and what of it?, my god is great that he can be stolen by a thief, he can be mutable and he can be immanent in the word, evidently your god needs to send an angel to do his work for him.

“how can you restrict the almighty to mere words”

it is not a restriction this is just one of his many singular forms, words are just noises qurban ji understand this and you will be a lot wiser.

“1 - Not Eternal

God himself is not eternal- he gets created from memory, also every time a copy is made of your scripture, i.e. a Printer”

no , you see the words as you see your Koran, when we repeat the words we have a divine connection and man is enlightened sometimes I never understand the words and this proves the power of gurbani, god is eternal in many forms and god is not eternal in many forms, this is another contradiction it is not wise to approach the nature of god with an reductive analytic approach, god transcends and creates these forms of study your god is incredibly limited if he cannot surpass such endeavours.

“2- Not Perfect

God is not perfect in nature in his original form- as he is required to go through alterations and changes,”

This is known as being pedantic, an exercise in futility which I have answered somewhere above.

“3- Not Universal

God himself is not universal, you said Guru nanak brings God with his words- what language did Guru nanak speak? If words of Guru Nanak is God, then in what way was God available to the rest of Mankind- to me it seems that God Himself can and needs to be translated, then how is God still in his original form? And how is he perfect in essence?”

this is confusing you start wih the issue of universaltity then venture into the hermaneutics of scriptural interpretation, gurmukhi is the language and it is interpreted as and by the individual any way they please it is not one universal interpretation for the whole of mankind if that is the koranic way then that’s ok we here at Sikhism do not practice our faith as such. bani is the spiritual embodiment of the guru then bani is pure truth, every letter is a diamond and therefore there is no harm or misrepresentation in taking a sentence out of a verse. And then used to support an argument especially when the argument is in full support of the fundamental practices of the sikh religion. One could only argue that their has been misrepresentation if their was a rule governing the way any part of sri guru granth sahib ji is interpreted, for eg, when i isolate ekonkar from mulmantar it speaks volumes, the same could be said for satnam, the meaning of these words in isolation from mul mantar speak volumes. However, they together form the mulmantar which has great spiritual power. That does not mean we cannot take a line out of sri guru granth sahib ji and discuss it for the fruitful activities and social reform.
Noone has a right to set the rules on how we partake of our guru, the translators are not divine, guruji asks all to experience individually, everybody has their own technique or preference, some like to examine the whole text, some like to read it parrot fashion, some like to sing shabad it depends on your own preference, love comes to all individually for gurshabad.we do not make our practices rigid.


“4- Not All Powerful

God is not all powerful he gets kidnapped/godnapped by petty thief’s
God is under the control of the Guru, as every time Guru speaks, God is awakened
God is under the control of every Sikhs every time they read the divine book in the original language it was revealed in-
God is confined and captured in a book-“

you now want me to continue this charade where you set all the conditions for the nature of god and deny that in Sikhism our god has a divine nature which is used to reveal the divine within us through the divine touchstone which is gurbani, instead you belittle that capability of god and brand our god weak because you are unable to grasp the true nature of our god this is a sad state of affairs.

“5- Not One and Only

Even though the original was with the thief, another version was created from memory, not to mention every time a copy is made of the scripture resulting in more than one god! And also as the guru Brings God in his Word- before the birth of Guru how did God address mankind- who else bought God with their word, and did he speak a different language from the Guru? If he did then in what way does that make God one and only?”

because divine nature of god is one and that is immanent in the word this is not a hard concept to grasp, and it is the first time in history that god was immanent in the word there was none prior to history that’s why Sikhism exists, your argument of the oneness of god has nothing to do with Sikhism it is because your personal convictions of the nature of a one god have nothing to do with the oneness in Sikhism, one divine being which manifests in many forms as the different seasons express themselves differently in many continents.


“You said the original was stolen- clearly states that you don’t have an original copy of your divine revelation- what you have here is the word of Guru Gobind Ji, not Gods-“


no because the nature of guru in Sikhism does not change with the implementation of guru granth sahib ji guru gobind singh was the guru also the flesh was a vehicle for the transmission of that word the guru granth sahib ji becomes guru when guru gobind singh ji no longer was your argument is shrivel in the wake of that, the original copy which you seem to be having a flight of fancy with is still available as I have mention above it is in kartarpur go have a read if need be their was no original guru granth sahib ji, there was an original adi granth which was not given gurgaddi I hope you see your errors this is becoming incredibly tiresome.


“Show me a statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God”

you ask me to state from the guru granth sahib ji and then say that you have inferred from heera singh ji that the word is a collection of writings well heera singh actually answered this question already you are not paying attention:

Satguru Granth Sahib is a divinely revealed scripture. There are many occasions when this is made clear in Sree Guru Granth Sahib:
---
jaisee mai aavai khusum kee baanee thaisurraa kuree giaan vae laalo ||
As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo. (722).
---
sathigur kee baanee sath sath kar jaanuhu gurasikhuhu har kuruthaa aap muhuhu kudtaaeae ||
O GurSikhs, know that the Bani, the Word of the True Guru, is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it. (308)


Now whether or not you wish to accept the definition of revelation as outlined by myself and others here is a battle with your conscience I am not going to go make you believe I am going to continue with other facets of sri guru granth sahib ji:

1. It is written using very deeply profound words obtained from over 16 languages.
(I would say that it's words are more profound then that of any other Book on the
planet, but that would not get anywhere, I would be simply dismissed as being
biased)
2. The words from over 16 incompatible languages are incorporated in a way that
they make perfect sense.
3. The alphabet the Guru Granth Sahib uses was invented by the Supreme Beings
that wrote it. The Alphabet is called Gurmuki, it is impossible to make a spelling
mistake using this alphabet because it has logical grammar rules. Every word or
sound can only be written one way. Not like English where the k in knife is silent.
This is the easiest alphabet to master. I bet the world would be using computers a
long time ago to write things using speech recognition programs if Gurmuki was
the business language of the world.
4. Every sentence is written in poetry of the highest order. (William Shakespeare
would have been envious.)
5. At the same time every sentence rhymes.
6. At the same time everything is in music verse form, so that all sorts of musical
instruments can be played while it is sung."


Can the same be said of Koran I don’t think so time to eat some humble pie comapdre.

“now your saying it is the word from God as you answered my question in the affirmative”

so your getting me on a technicality this is pedantic also, I have defined the nature of direct reveltation tit for tat is something you are fond of and you are welcome to it but ultimately you have gained nothing.

“Because if it is God talking then he is calling every one that reads the following verses “the creator”

not really why can god not talk about himself, would that be then branding god egotistical with your line of reasoning, and secondly there is a fundamental flaw and that is the concept of mool, that mool is divine essence which exists within all of us, and the mool is also creative, there is no such thing in Sikhism as what came first the chicken or the egg, in Sikhism the spirit creates the seed which creates the human and the spirit becomes immanent in that life form and lives by virtue of the karma of its previous life form to go into the indepth study of these diamonds of gurbani in this discussion will take us away from the topic which is the nature of direct revelation in Sikhism.

“Is Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji God?

No! I didn’t think so!

And don’t tell me that the words in there, are God- because there are more than one word in their,- and these words were stolen by Theifs- recreated from memory, and altered- which inconsistent with the attributes of God, i.e. God is One, God is all powerful, has no beginning, he is immutable - see arguments above-“


you seem to be behaving like judge jury and executioner I have revoked all these assertions and now the onus is upon yourself to accept your failures.


“So there are no revelations from your God addressing the origin of life- so where does that leave you, how does that make you feel, not knowing with certainty your origin?”

actually I did I also gave you a shabad from sri guru granth sahib ji which you have failed to draw on when making your conclusions pay more attention!!!. I am content as I have the truth with me I have god to speak to when ever I need to I don’t need a story book on god I have god.

I leave you with a quote from god:

Without the True Guru, other songs are false.
The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.
The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.
They may continually chant, 'Har, Har' with their tongues, but they do not know what they are saying.
Their consciousness is lured by Maya; they are just reciting mechanically.
Says Nanak, without the True Guru, other songs are false. ||24||

I will look forward to your response,

ISDhillon

[Snowflake]

sikhs are sick.........may Allah Tala put hadaiyath on all of them Ameen!!

Ameen. But please don't say sikhs are sick. I have/had a few sikh friends and they are the nicest people I know. Infact they had more morals than some of the muslims I know! We should love all of Allah's creation and pray for them instead of calling them names.

[Islam-Sikhism]

Asalaamu 'alaykum

We invite you to our new website geared towards giving da'wah to Sikh's, foremost amongst them - Mr Dhillon.

http://www.geocities.com/islam_sikhism/

We have, thus far, covered the contraditions of Nirgun-Sargun, reincarnation-transmigration & issues of women.

We pray the Muslims benefit and we ask you make du'a for us.

Wa salaam

[afriend]

Asalaamu 'alaykum

We invite you to our new website geared towards giving da'wah to Sikh's, foremost amongst them - Mr Dhillon.

http://www.geocities.com/islam_sikhism/

We have, thus far, covered the contraditions of Nirgun-Sargun, reincarnation-transmigration & issues of women.

We pray the Muslims benefit and we ask you make du'a for us.

Wa salaam

Definately will do!

good luck in ur quest to give Da'wah to Sikhs...it's hard trust me!

[ISDhillon]

Islam -sikhism,

your day will come and I have sent you an email just now good luck with your dawaah whilst it lasts I am going to work hard to see that your site is shut down by all means debate with me here I had warned you several months back upon which you said you would get in contact with me and clear up any misconceptions instead you have been unable to revoke my arguments and dismissed them as red herrings like many missionaries do but I am not as easily abated I will suceed you can be assured of that.

ISDhillon

[afriend]

cool down

I had many Sikh friends....

They wer quite safe.

U have a religion of peace.....not to mention tolerance.

We must encline upon these characteristics and try to understand and tolerate eachother better.

[ISDhillon]

cool down

I had many Sikh friends....

They wer quite safe.

U have a religion of peace.....not to mention tolerance.

We must encline upon these characteristics and try to understand and tolerate eachother better.

Iqram Ji

I dont have a problem with tolerance but when you debate wth someone the least they can do is respond these people did not because they know that their discourse on sikhism is not accurate read the contents of that site and tell me whether or not it has anything to do with sikhism, the whole basis of their argument is the law of non contradiction, This law of non-contradiction is ridiculous, you will always see these missionaries say things like, god is reasonable and would never contradict himself and then they rush in with the law of non-contradiction expecting everyone to bow down in defeat because they have accepted a common frame of reference instead of their own faith being a measure of its own definition.

The premise of this law in religious dialogue is quite sneeky, it follows that if god made man in the image of himself then god has a mind and is rational. God in sikhism is not as per this definition, we in sikhism believe that god made creation in the image of the souls purpose, thats why all rivers lead to the sea, thats why we have so many joons if we interpret last stanza of Japji Sahib from Pavan guru pani pitta... it is quite self explanatory how creation is made in the image of the souls purpose ie, to be one with god, the spirit is a divine essence which defies all that our minds are capable of interpreting this central theme runs throughout the whole of sri guru granth sahib ji but the missionaries have failed to draw on such references when making their conclusions therefore this unequivically proves their motives to be suspect.

I have tried to discuss things with them by email but it appears that it is a group of schoolboys having a laugh and the stinking pride in their emails makes me want to vomit, they told me their main aim was to change the perception of islam that sufis had done and that sikhi is also a pseudo-spiritual faith. I have rebutted them quite adequately as once you revoke the law of non-contradiction the foundations of their whole arguments crash down around them.

IKant is referred to on their website and he even argued against some theories for God's existence [the ontological argument], even though he did believe in God he stated originally that only European males were rational beings and only later changed this to the whole of humanity... this shows that no-one's logic or rational nature is a-priori... Kant clearly needed experience to show himself what was right!!


Anyhow its ok I understand now that an impasse has been reached and we can no longer retrieve a cordial dialogue.:grumbling

Gurfateh,

ISDhillon

[afriend]

Oh no......

I was hoping to keep it neutral.....

but game on....any misconceptions, hand em over.....

[Islam-Sikhism]

Mr Dhillon,

Your humility shines through as per usual.

Even if you work hard to shut down the site, it only takes 15 mins to put it up again.

We suggest you learn how to debate before dismissing red herrings since this is only reflective of your inability to debate.

All the best

[ISDhillon]

"Your humility shines through as per usual."

there is no need to be humble with a person who deliberately is out to offend others i am not the first to ask you politely to close down your site their have been many trust me I KNOW!!!.

"Even if you work hard to shut down the site, it only takes 15 mins to put it up again."

this is a very bad attitude.


"We suggest you learn how to debate before dismissing red herrings since this is only reflective of your inability to debate."

you set your own rules of debate within narrow parameters whereas as I have told you that we follow a post-modern paradigm but you conveniently dont want to acknowldege that.

"All the best"

dont say what you dont mean I know you too well by now to dismiss any of your good intentions.

Without trust,

ISDhillon:offended:

[Maimunah]

people have some respect for each other!!!!!!!

[afriend]

Ok chill out.

Lets do this systematically.

Mr. Dilhon, your first misconception?

[ISDhillon]

Ok chill out.

Lets do this systematically.

Mr. Dilhon, your first misconception?

Iqram Ji,

You ask a great question with a great response but for now I will start of by saying that sikhism follows the twin doctrine of guru granth-guru panth which is not mention in the website instead the rehat maryada which is the code of conduct for sikhs is referred to as personal opinions even though in sikhism the khalsa was established to govern with the aouthority of the guru in a temporal aspect (guru panth) this is why when 5 beloved ones gave their head to the guru the guru then accepted amrit of the 5 beloved ones and this is referred to as the cosmic play because the guru became the sikh and the sikh became the guru, so authority is in the 5 beloved ones whenever they are together, but the site has not revealed the nature of this institution of panj piare it instead circumvents this part of sikh history and channels the rehat maryada as a guide of personal opinions. Well in sikhism our guru cut the fetters around our mind and told us to adapt with changing circumstances and that reality is not static but constantly becoming and therefore the nature of ultimate reality is subjective and that is known as sat which is the divine essence of god and the soul. So we do not need to have a maryada written for all eternity it is not in line with sikh thought on how humans should live.

anyway thats enough for now,

ISDhillon

[YouAreLostSouls]

Ok chill out.

Lets do this systematically.

Mr. Dilhon, your first misconception?

haha MR Dhilhon , well done , i think ppl are trying to find the slightest flaw in wat you say and twist its meaning to try and prove your Sikhism as a false religion. Mr Dhilhon, although you are a very knowlegdeable man and will probably win this debate if it was in person. i think that on this forum, these idiots wont let you, becaus they are only interested in their own religion and ther minds have been made up . They do not know the truth. they are lost souls, how can you teach someone the truth if they are unwilling to hear it. However i hope this wont tarnish your veiw of muslims, ther are many who realise this and accept that we are all children of god.

you mite find that you are wasting time, but infact when i read this i found that your arguments are good and well done to you. if others read it they will definitley be interested in sikh religion which accepts all faiths.

God sees us all as his children, this idea that u need to be muslim to be accepted by god is absolutley false and uncredible. If anyone argues with this is to be a fool of fools.

[ISDhillon]

haha MR Dhilhon , well done , i think ppl are trying to find the slightest flaw in wat you say and twist its meaning to try and prove your Sikhism as a false religion. Mr Dhilhon, although you are a very knowlegdeable man and will probably win this debate if it was in person. i think that on this forum, these idiots wont let you, becaus they are only interested in their own religion and ther minds have been made up . They do not know the truth. they are lost souls, how can you teach someone the truth if they are unwilling to hear it. However i hope this wont tarnish your veiw of muslims, ther are many who realise this and accept that we are all children of god.

you mite find that you are wasting time, but infact when i read this i found that your arguments are good and well done to you. if others read it they will definitley be interested in sikh religion which accepts all faiths.

God sees us all as his children, this idea that u need to be muslim to be accepted by god is absolutley false and uncredible. If anyone argues with this is to be a fool of fools.

Satsriakal YouAreLostSouls Ji,

Thankyou for your kind words I have to admit I have been through these exact discussions on many an occasion because some people are taught a scheme of falsification and then this is dressed as dawaah when really it is not dawaah it is islamic version of apologetics. What I feel is that it is always the same questions, that suggests a lack of spontaneity in interfaith dialogue which means that the intention of this forum is not for "comparitive religion" but "denying other religions".

Anyhow thanks again and I hope that vaheguru rehabilitates all those who are blinded by their own ego,

ISDhillon:)

[afriend]

ok.

Peace.

That's what our religions teach right?

I don't expect any1 2 bcom a muslim.

But I do expect peace and tollerance.

Salaams Dhillon.

[justahumane]

Lol a bit random, whats Dr Naik got to do with anything
If his discourse is so shocking why are so many people converting through islam because of him, even sikhs appreciate his work, listen to similarities between islam and hinduism and at the end you see all these sikh brothers praising him
What makes him such a stand up comedian, please exaplin?

Salam Brother Moss,

Brother I cant tell whether Dr. Zakir.Naik is a stand up comadian or not, but I m as sure like death that he is a liar, to make the things worse, he speak lies in the name of ALLAH. I wonder how he is seen as a good muslim while he is not even an average muslim at all. If u disagree with me brother, than plz ask, Inshallah I will try to prove that whatever I say about this really great scholer of our times is 100% correct.

Thanks.

[Mohsin]

If u disagree with me brother, than plz ask, Inshallah

Ok i disagree, so i'll ask!

I think maybe a new topic will need to be created for this, i can't possibly see how he's ever lied, he gives talks in front of hundreds of thousands of people, scholars and muslims would by now have noticed something

[justahumane]

Ok i disagree, so i'll ask!

I think maybe a new topic will need to be created for this, i can't possibly see how he's ever lied, he gives talks in front of hundreds of thousands of people, scholars and muslims would by now have noticed something

Brother u are more than welcome to create a new topic, but to start with, plz see one of his quotes regarding why is pork forbidden in islam. Here he is telling the ppls regarding some abnormal sexual behaviour of pigs. Plz check the truth behind his statements. Not to mention he always start with Bismillah. and U will be glad to know that while ALLAH or the holy prophet never gave any reason behind prohibition of pork in islam, this great scholer moved several steps ahead to tell us what prompted ALLAH to prohibit pork.:)

Pig is the most shameless animal
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say "you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife." If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common in the affluent circles of Bombay.

[Mohsin]

Firstly just because a reason from Allah wasn't given for a simple rule, doesn't mean there isn't any wisdom behind it. I mean it doesn't say why we pray 5 times a day, but we know there's wisdom there, it gives us constant reminder to pray. We were never told why we fast or are circumcisd, but science has proven it to be healthy, so again there was wisdom that wasn't given, and same with eating of pig

Either way, i'm sure someone in some talk by now would have said something about this. Dr Naik's not stupid, he'd have only used information that he knows is true, because he'd look stupid getting embarressed in front of thousands of epople, which would later be screened to millions later. Anyway, you haven't actually brought evidence proving the opposite of what Dr Naik has said

[Mohsin]

Also i'd like to add, he usually adds "And Allah Knows Best" Go to www.irf.net and look at the answer to polyandry, at the end it says

The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry

[justahumane]

Firstly just because a reason from Allah wasn't given for a simple rule, doesn't mean there isn't any wisdom behind it. I mean it doesn't say why we pray 5 times a day, but we know there's wisdom there, it gives us constant reminder to pray. We were never told why we fast or are circumcisd, but science has proven it to be healthy, so again there was wisdom that wasn't given, and same with eating of pig

Either way, i'm sure someone in some talk by now would have said something about this. Dr Naik's not stupid, he'd have only used information that he knows is true, because he'd look stupid getting embarressed in front of thousands of epople, which would later be screened to millions later. Anyway, you haven't actually brought evidence proving the opposite of what Dr Naik has said

Salam again brother Moss,

Thanks for ur reply brother. First of all brother, I m not questioning any wisdom behind prohibition of pork. There must be coz we know that pork is filthy animal. So perhaps u got me wrong, I m not arguing why pig is forbidden. All I want to emphasize that Dr. Naik speaks lies, rather filthy lies, and that too in front of sisters.

U want me to bring evidence of that Pigs dont invite other male pigs to have sex with his mate, isnt it funny brother? If U are not biased than u must think that what inspired Dr. Zakir Naik to make such filthy claim? did he himself see this happening? or he has any scientific reason to back his claim? Or other animals dont have multiple partners? Do he understand language of pigs to make such claims? And that too in the name of ALLAH? Isnt it sufficient proof that filth lies somewhere else too? Isnt if sufficient proof that he lies in the name of ALLAH?

Also i'd like to add, he usually adds "And Allah Knows Best" Go to www.irf.net and look at the answer to polyandry, at the end it says

The above reasons are those that one can easily identify. There are probably many more reasons why Allah, in His Infinite Wisdom, has prohibited polyandry

Brother I have no problem in agreeing to truth. Yes he usually add "And ALLAH knows the best" but while answering to the question of pigs, he forgot adding this. And u should rather advice me to go to the question i m refering to, where he has forgotten to add " and ALLAH knows best" for reasons unknown to me. Ur advice for look the answer for polyandry is irrelevent here, I hope u understand.

Brother I hope I have provided enough evidence that he is a liar who doesnt hesitate in speaking filthy lies in front of sisters and that too in the name of ALLAH. But still if u dont want to accept it than I have no option but to say that ALLAH knows the best and he will himself judge each and everyone.

Thanks.

[Sister_6038]

i have actually spoken to a sikh friend who has told me about sikhism...she actually explained to me that the original guru...guru nanak was born to hindu parents and he explored around the idea of islam...but rather than face the opposal of his parents he chose to combine the two religions...

[ISDhillon]

i have actually spoken to a sikh friend who has told me about sikhism...she actually explained to me that the original guru...guru nanak was born to hindu parents and he explored around the idea of islam...but rather than face the opposal of his parents he chose to combine the two religions...

Then your freind is not that wise is she but you are free to think what you like I was brought with many stories about muslims but I never took those ideas to form the basis of my perception of islam I learned for myself cos god gave me a brain, you need to read the whole thread I have already addressed this accusations. Read gurbani and you will know what message god gave to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. :)

[afriend]

:)

I wish ppl wud b more like that and not judge Islam on what the media says, but instead, find the truth thru researing personally.

[ISDhillon]

:)

I wish ppl wud b more like that and not judge Islam on what the media says, but instead, find the truth thru researing personally.

Well said Iqram Ji :)

[Muezzin]

Pinch me, I'm dreaming - peace and harmony in a Comparative Religion thread?

Keep it up! :D

[Mohsin]

Brother I hope I have provided enough evidence that he is a liar who doesnt hesitate in speaking filthy lies in front of sisters and that too in the name of ALLAH.

Bro you haven't provided any proofs to the contrary. Again as i've said before, the guy's a medical doctor, who researches into this stuff. Now if he was to be lying and he got caught, how bad would that look? and so far he hasn't been caught once in his talks, even though so many hindus and christians come to debate with him.
I have no proof about this issue about pigs, but usin the logic above, that he is in the medical profession, that he would be stupid to risk lieing infront of hundreds of people on an issue such as this where such an answer would not be needed as its enough to say pigs are dirty, so why would he lie?
Although i have no proof for this, i'd probs ahve to speak to dr naik himself, but similarly u have no proof against it, you haven't provided any proof

[justahumane]

Bro you haven't provided any proofs to the contrary. Again as i've said before, the guy's a medical doctor, who researches into this stuff. Now if he was to be lying and he got caught, how bad would that look? and so far he hasn't been caught once in his talks, even though so many hindus and christians come to debate with him.
I have no proof about this issue about pigs, but usin the logic above, that he is in the medical profession, that he would be stupid to risk lieing infront of hundreds of people on an issue such as this where such an answer would not be needed as its enough to say pigs are dirty, so why would he lie?
Although i have no proof for this, i'd probs ahve to speak to dr naik himself, but similarly u have no proof against it, you haven't provided any proof

Brother its good to learn that a medical doctor is supposed to research about which animal invites his bretherns to have sex with his mates. But I m gonna wait till when u ask this directly to dr. Naik, and ask him abot what kinda research he has done with pigs. He must be having sufficient proofs with him, thanks to his reasearch work. But I must admit that I have no proof that there is only one animal in the world who doesnt invite his bretherns to have sex with his partner. And I m sorry for that too.

BTW I have asked may ppls about this particular filthy claim. But am yet to get a confirmation. But when such a great muslim like dr. Zakir Naik says than there must be one. coz he cant speak lie, and that too in the name of ALLAH.

Take ur time brother, I m waiting for ur proof.

Thanks.

[Mohsin]

Take ur time brother, I m waiting for ur proof.

Thanks.

With all due respect brother, you're the one bringing the allegation against Dr Naik speaking a lie in allah's name, so you should bring the proof, not me. I have no reason to believe he is lieing, but since you are making such a claim bring me some evidence

Peace

[Mohsin]

Since i take Brothers Akram Islam_sikhism, and Qurban are busy, i'll take the chance to ask genuine questions about sikhism i don't understand

I don't undestand how God sent Guru Nanek only like 700 years ago, what about before then? Where was the guidance for mankind. We've been around for thousands of years, yet God only sent Guru Nanek recently. The semetic religions have a better answer to this, through the prophethood, but you don't believe these prophets were sent by God do you? Please explion the the whole guidance before the coming of Nanak

[Islam-Sikhism]

Asalaamu 'alaykum

A very good question Moss.

We've shed some light on this conundrum in the following article:

THE ORIGINAL WORSHIPPERS
Were they upon one doctrine and worship or many? In answering this we will shed light on the absurdity of religious pluralism and diversity of worship
http://www.geocities.com/islam_sikhi...in/origin1.htm

Wa salaam

[ISDhillon]

“Since i take Brothers Akram Islam_sikhism, and Qurban are busy, i'll take the chance to ask genuine questions about sikhism i don't understand

I don't undestand how God sent Guru Nanek only like 700 years ago, what about before then? Where was the guidance for mankind. We've been around for thousands of years, yet God only sent Guru Nanek recently. The semetic religions have a better answer to this, through the prophethood, but you don't believe these prophets were sent by God do you? Please explion the the whole guidance before the coming of Nanak”

Satsriakal Moss Ji,

Please ignore the essay from the islam-sikhism site they are unable to counter argue all my refutations but I will answer your question. The guidance for mankind has always been at the will of god it is at his pleasure that the myriad of faiths have come to pass in both the east and the west, similarly in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is mention of all faiths including semitic ones such as adam and your prophet, from Hinduism there is mention of nearly all avatars and Buddha, but what is important here is to note is the word guidance, we have to look at whether Sikhism is really a religion such as the semitic faiths or is it a dharma (active way of righteousness), you see we do not believe in religion because we do not want to worship god therefore knowing of past events will not help us achieve this purpose, nor does god want us to worship him, god wants us to be enlightened as he has revealed himself throughout the ages in his creation, the spirits descent in time and the human spirit ascends in time this is the way of works, worship of god is not enough, religion has hardened the identity of a faith follower Sikh means to learn we therefore are not hardened we can all learn from one another and we can never fully sing the praises of god nor can we ever claim to have the full revelation because god is without limit.

If we are free from the bondage of dogma then we can live and continue to give to the world free from any bondage to obscurant ideology which is what all the messiahs did they never came on earth so that when they left we would all just repeat what they said they wanted us to live and impart the gifts we gained from their teachings, with time however many people lossed site of dharma and dharma was replaced by religion, guidance then became a formality. Let me describe this, in Hinduism people pray to idols, idol worship was forbidden in Sikhism not because it was a sin but because of sheep mentality. Originally when the devtas were on earth the humans who lived had a spiritual awakening (which happens with the start of all faiths) this involves a renewed kinship with mans spirit and the divine. Devotion wells up and in such loving adoration faith followers built magnificent idols which were great works of art and portrayed the inner experience in an external fashion. However with time people stopped the exercises of spirituality and instead were left with the magnificence of the idols these idols were bowed before, the next generation then grew up learning from the previous generation that the ancestors all bowed and thus was a custom born, but the dharma was lost and the religion of Hinduism was born.

Now in Sikhism we have no idols we only have the words of the guru which we bow before because if the guru kept his mouth shut we would never have known they existed therefore the learning was what was important not the person. If we bow before the word then we know that we cannot live in the memory of the past flesh gurus but the guru which is forever present to day in the form of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Now Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that there would be no prophecy in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji however he did write his own autobiography and in it he describes the drama of religion and dharma let me show you what he says please note that the guru covers most religions even many which are not given any consideration in the Koran such as the eastern ones:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਅਬ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਕਥਾ ਬਖਾਨੋ ॥ ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਜਿਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਆਨੋ ॥
अब मै अपनी कथा बखानो ॥ तप साधत जिह बिधि मुहि आनो ॥
Now I relate my own story as to how I was brought here, while I was absorbed in deep meditation.

ਹੇਮ ਕੁੰਟ ਪਰਬਤ ਹੈ ਜਹਾਂ ॥ ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਸੋਭਿਤ ਹੈ ਤਹਾਂ ॥੧॥
हेम कुंट परबत है जहां ॥ सपत स्रिंग सोभित है तहां ॥१॥
The site was the mountain named Hemkunt, with seven peaks and looks there very impressive.1.

ਸਪਤ ਸ੍ਰਿੰਗ ਤਿਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਹਾਵਾ ॥ ਪੰਡੁ ਰਾਜ ਜਹ ਜੋਗੁ ਕਮਾਵਾ ॥
सपत स्रिंग तिह नामु कहावा ॥ पंडु राज जह जोगु कमावा ॥
That mountain is called Sapt Shring (seven-peaked mountain), where the Pandavas Practised Yoga.

ਤਹ ਹਮ ਅਧਿਕ ਤਪੱਸਿਆ ਸਾਧੀ ॥ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਅਰਾਧੀ ॥੨॥
तह हम अधिक तपसिआ साधी ॥ महाकाल कालिका अराधी ॥२॥
There I was absorbed in deep meditation on the Primal Power, the Supreme KAL.2.

ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਰਤ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਭਯੋ ॥ ਦ੍ਵੈ ਤੇ ਏਕ ਰੂਪ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਯੋ ॥
इह बिधि करत तपसिआ भयो ॥ द्वै ते एक रूप ह्वै गयो ॥
In this way, my meditation reached its zenith and I became One with the Omnipotent Lord.

ਤਾਤ ਮਾਤ ਮੁਰ ਅਲਖ ਅਰਾਧਾ ॥ ਬਹੂ ਬਿਧਿ ਜੋਗ ਸਾਧਨਾ ਸਾਧਾ ॥੩॥
तात मात मुर अलख अराधा ॥ बहू बिधि जोग साधना साधा ॥३॥
My parents also meditated for the union with the Incomprehensible Lord and performed many types of disciplines for union.3.

ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਕਰੀ ਅਲਖ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਗੁਰਦੇਵਾ ॥
तिन जो करी अलख की सेवा ॥ ता ते भए प्रसंन गुरदेवा ॥
The service that they rendered the Incomprehensible Lord, caused the pleasure of the Supreme Guru (i.e. Lord).

ਤਿਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਬ ਆਇਸ ਮੁਹਿ ਦੀਆ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਮ ਜਨਮ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਲੀਆ ॥੪॥
तिन प्रभ जब आइस मुहि दीआ ॥ तब हम जनम कलू महि लीआ ॥४॥
When the Lord ordered me, I was born in this Iron age.4.

ਚਿਤ ਨ ਭਯੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਆਵਨ ਕਹ ॥ ਚੁਭੀ ਰਹੀ ਸ੍ਰੁਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਚਰਨਨ ਮਹ ॥
चित न भयो हमरो आवन कह ॥ चुभी रही स्रुति प्रभु चरनन मह ॥
I had no desire to come, because I was totally absorbed in devotion for the Holy feet of the Lord.

ਜਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੫॥
जिउ तिउ प्रभ हम को समझायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥५॥
But the Lord made me understand His Will and sent me in this world with the following words.5.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥
अकाल पुरख बाच इस कीट प्रति ॥
The Words of the Non-temporal Lord to this insect:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥
जब पहिले हम स्रिसटि बनाई ॥ दईत रचे दुसट दुखदाई ॥
When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas

ਤੇ ਭੁਜ ਬਲ ਬਵਰੇ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਏ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ॥੬॥
ते भुज बल बवरे ह्वै गए ॥ पूजत परम पुरख रहि गए ॥६॥
Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥
ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥
I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥
ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसर कहाए ॥७॥
They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥
महादेव अचुत कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥
Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥
Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥
तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥
Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥
ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥
But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥
Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.

ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥
केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥
Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.

ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥
Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.

ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥
केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥
Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥
जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥
All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥
ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥
They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥
जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥
When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਸਿ ਮਮਤਾ ਹੁਇ ਗਏ ॥ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਪਾਹਨ ਠਹਿਰਏ ॥੧੩॥
ते भी बसि ममता हुइ गए ॥ परमेसर पाहन ठहिरए ॥१३॥
They also were overpowered by `mineness` and exhibited the Lord in statues.13.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਸਿੱਧ ਸਾਧ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਏ ॥
तब हरि सिध साध ठहिराए ॥ तिन भी परम पुरख नही पाए ॥
Then I created Siddhas and sadhs, who also could not realize the Lord.

ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਿ ਸਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਨਾ ॥੧੪॥
जे कोई होत भयो जगि सिआना ॥ तिन तिन अपनो पंथु चलाना ॥१४॥
On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path. 14.

ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੈਰ ਬਾਦ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਢਾਯੋ ॥
परम पुरख किनहूं नह पायो ॥ बैर बाद अहंकार बढायो ॥
None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego.

ਪੇਡ ਪਾਤ ਆਪਨ ਤੇ ਜਲੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਪੰਥ ਨ ਕੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥੧੫॥
पेड पात आपन ते जलै ॥ प्रभ कै पंथ न कोऊ चलै ॥१५॥
The tree and the leaves began to burn, because of the inner fire.None followed the path of the Lord.15.

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿੱਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥
जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिन तिन अपना राहु चलायो ॥
Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own ptah.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥
परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥
None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥
परम तत किनहूं न पछाना ॥ आप आप भीतरि उरझाना ॥
Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

ਤਬ ਜੇ ਜੇ ਰਿਖਰਾਜ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਆਪਨ ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਚਲਾਏ ॥੧੭॥
तब जे जे रिखराज बनाए ॥ तिन आपन पुन सिम्रित चलाए ॥१७॥
All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17.

ਜੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥
जे सिम्रितन के भए अनुरागी ॥ तिनि तिनि क्रिआ ब्रहम की तिआगी ॥
All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥
जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥
Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥
ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥
Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥
जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥
Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥
जिन मत बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥
Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਗੂੜ ਮੱਤ ਜੇ ਚਲਹੀ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਦੁਖਨ ਸੋ ਦਲਹੀ ॥੨੦॥
तिन के गूड़ मत जे चलही ॥ भांति अनेक दुखन सो दलही ॥२०॥
Whosoever follows their path, he crushes various types of sufferings.20.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥
जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥
Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥
ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥
When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪ੍ਰਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗ ਪਰੈ ॥
जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम प्ररख तजि तिन मग परै ॥
Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥
ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥
They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22.

ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਬਹੁਰ ਦੱਤ ਉਪਜਾਇਓ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਅਪਨਾ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਇਓ ॥
तब हरि बहुर दत उपजाइओ ॥ तिन भी अपना पंथु चलाइओ ॥
Then I created Dutt, who also started his own path.

ਕਰ ਮੋ ਨਖ ਸਿਰ ਜਟਾਂ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੩॥
कर मो नख सिर जटां सवारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२३॥
His followed have long nail in their hands and matted hair on their heads . They did not understand the ways of the Lord.23

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਰਖ ਕੌ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਸਿੱਖ ਕਰੇ ਤਿਨਹੂੰ ਬਡ ਰਾਜਾ ॥
पुनि हरि गोरख कौ उपराजा ॥ सिख करे तिनहूं बड राजा ॥
Then I ccreated Gorakh, who made great kings his disciples.

ਸ੍ਰਵਨ ਫਾਰਿ ਮੁਦ੍ਰਾ ਦੁਐ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤ ਰੀਤਿ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੪॥
स्रवन फारि मुद्रा दुऐ डारी ॥ हरि की प्रीत रीति न बिचारी ॥२४॥
His disciples wear rings in their ears and do not know the love of the lord.24.

ਪੁਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਮਾਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਕਰਾ ॥ ਭੇਸ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਧਰਾ ॥
पुनि हरि रामानंद को करा ॥ भेस बैरागी को जिन धरा ॥
Then I created Ramanand, who adopted the path of Bairagi.

ਕੰਠੀ ਕੰਠਿ ਕਾਠ ਕੀ ਡਾਰੀ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਨ ਕਛੂ ਬਿਚਾਰੀ ॥੨੫॥
कंठी कंठि काठ की डारी ॥ प्रभ की क्रिआ न कछू बिचारी ॥२५॥
Around his neck he wore necklace of wooden beads and did not comprehend the ways of the Lord.25.

ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥
जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥
All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਤਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਅਰਬ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜਾ ॥੨੬॥
महादीन तब प्रभ उपराजा ॥ अरब देस को कीनो राजा ॥२६॥
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਏਕ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਲਿੰਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੀਨੇ ਸਭ ਰਾਜਾ ॥
तिन भी एक पंथ उपराजा ॥ लिंग बिना कीने सभ राजा ॥
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥
सभ ते अपना नामु जपायो ॥ सति नामु काहूं न द्रिड़ायो ॥२७॥
He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥
सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥
Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

ਤਪ ਸਾਧਤ ਹਰਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਬੁਲਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਮ ਕਹਿ ਕੈ ਇਹ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੨੮॥
तप साधत हरि मोहि बुलायो ॥ इम कहि कै इह लोक पठायो ॥२८॥
When I was busy in the austere devotion, the Lord called me and sent me to this world with the following words.28.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਰਖ ਬਾਚ ॥
अकाल प्ररख बाच ॥
The Word of the Non-Temporal Lord:

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਮੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੁਤ ਤੋਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਕਰਬੇ ਕਹੁ ਸਾਜਾ ॥
मै अपना सुत तोहि निवाजा ॥ पंथ प्रचुर करबे कहु साजा ॥
I have adopted you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the path (Panth).

ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥
जाहि तहां तै धरमु चलाइ ॥ कबुधि करन ते लोक हटाइ ॥२९॥
"You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and cause people to retrace their steps from evil actions".29.

ਕਬਿਬਾਚ ॥
कबिबाच ॥
The World of the Poet:

ਦੇਹਰਾ ॥
देहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਠਾਢ ਭਯੋ ਮੈ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਹਾ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਆਇ ॥
ठाढ भयो मै जोरि कर बचन कहा सिर निआइ ॥
I stood up with folded hands and bowing down my head, I said:

ਪੰਥ ਚਲੈ ਤਬ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਜਬ ਤੁਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੩੦॥
पंथ चलै तब जगत मै जब तुम करहु सहाइ ॥३०॥
"The path (Panth) shall prevail only in the world, with THY ASSISTANCE."30.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPI

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮੋਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥
इह कारनि प्रभ मोहि पठायो ॥ तब मै जगत जनम धरि आयो ॥
For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

ਜਿਮ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੀ ਤਿਨੈ ਤਿਮ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕਿਸੂ ਤੇ ਬੈਰ ਨ ਗਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੧॥
जिम तिन कही तिनै तिम कहिहों ॥ अउर किसू ते बैर न गहिहों ॥३१॥
Whatever the Lord said, I am repeating the same unto you, I do not bear enmity with anyone.31.

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥
जो हम को परमेसर उचरिहैं ॥ ते सभ नरक कुंड महि परिहैं ॥
Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

ਮੋ ਕੌ ਦਾਸ ਤਵਨ ਕਾ ਜਾਨੋ ॥ ਯਾ ਮੈ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਰੰਚ ਪਛਾਨੋ ॥੩੨॥
मो कौ दास तवन का जानो ॥ या मै भेद न रंच पछानो ॥३२॥
Consider me as His servant and do not think of any difference between me and the Lord.32.

ਮੈ ਹੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕੋ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ ਦੇਖਨ ਆਯੋ ਜਗਤ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥
मै हो परम पुरख को दासा ॥ देखन आयो जगत तमासा ॥
I am the servant of the Supreme Purusha and hath come to see the Sport of the world.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜਗਤਿ ਕਹਾ ਸੋ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਲੋਕ ਤੇ ਮੋਨ ਨ ਰਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੩॥
जो प्रभ जगति कहा सो कहिहों ॥ म्रित लोक ते मोन न रहिहों ॥३३॥
Whatever the Lord of the world said, I say the same unto you, I cannot remain silent in this abode of death.33.

ਨਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥
नराज छंद ॥
NARAAJ STANZA

ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਭਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਕਾਨ ਰਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥
कहिओ प्रभू सु भाखि हों ॥ किसू न कान राखि हों ॥
I say only that which the Lord hath said, I do not yield to anyone else.

ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਲੇਖ ਬੀਜ ਬੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੪॥
किसू न भेख भीज हों ॥ अलेख बीज बीज हों ॥३४॥
I do not feel pleased with any particular garb, I sow the seed of God`s Name.34.

ਪਖਾਣ ਪੂਜ ਹੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ॥ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋ ਕਹੀਂ ॥
पखाण पूज हों नहीं ॥ न भेख भीज हो कहीं ॥
I do not worship stones, nor I have any liking for a particular guise.

ਅਨੰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰੱਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੫॥
अनंत नामु गाइ हों ॥ परम पुरख पाइ हों ॥३५॥
I sing infinite Names (of the Lord), and meet the Supreme Purusha.35.

ਜਟਾ ਨ ਸੀਸ ਧਾਰਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਕਾ ਸੁਧਾਰਿਹੋਂ ॥
जटा न सीस धारिहों ॥ न मुंद्रका सुधारिहों ॥
I do not wear matted hair on my head, nor do I put rings in my ears.

ਨ ਕਾਨ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਮੈ ਕਰੋਂ ॥੩੬॥
न कान काहू की धरों ॥ कहिओ प्रभू सु मै करों ॥३६॥
I do not pay attention to anyone else, all my actions are at the bidding of the Lord.36.

ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥
भजों सु एक नामयं ॥ जु काम सरब ठामयं ॥
I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is useful at all places.

ਨ ਜਾਪ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪੋ ॥ ਨ ਅਉਰ ਥਾਪਨਾ ਥਪੋ ॥੩੭॥
न जाप आन को जपो ॥ न अउर थापना थपो ॥३७॥
I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I seek assistance from any other quarter.37.

ਬਿਅੰਤ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥
बिअंत नाम धिआइ हों ॥ परम जोति पाइ हों ॥
I recite infinite Names and attain the Supreme light.

ਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥੩੮॥
न धिआन आन को धरों ॥ न नाम आन उचरों ॥३८॥
I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I repeat the Name of anyone else.38.

ਤਵੱਕ ਨਾਮ ਰੱਤਿਯੰ ॥ ਨ ਆਨ ਮਾਨ ਮੱਤਿਯੰ ॥
तवक नाम रतियं ॥ न आन मान मतियं ॥
I am absorbed only in the Name of the Lord, and honour none else.

ਪਰੱਮ ਧਿਆਨ ਧਾਰੀਯੰ ॥ ਅਨੰਤ ਪਾਪ ਟਾਰੀਯੰ ॥੩੯॥
परम धिआन धारीयं ॥ अनंत पाप टारीयं ॥३९॥
By meditating on the Supreme, I am absolved of infinite sins.39.

ਤੁਮੇਵ ਰੂਪ ਰਾਚਿਯੰ ॥ ਨ ਆਨ ਦਾਨ ਮਾਚਿਯੰ ॥
तुमेव रूप राचियं ॥ न आन दान माचियं ॥
I am absorbed only in His Sight, and do not attend to any other charitable action.

ਤਵੱਕ ਨਾਮ ਉਚਾਰਿਯੰ ॥ ਅਨੰਤ ਦੂਖ ਟਾਰਿਯੰ ॥੪੦॥
तवक नाम उचारियं ॥ अनंत दूख टारियं ॥४०॥
By uttering only His Name, I am absolved of infinite sorrows.40.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਜਿਨ ਜਿਨ ਨਾਮ ਤਿਹਾਰੋ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ ਦੂਖ ਪਾਪ ਤਿਹ ਨਿਕਟ ਨ ਆਇਆ ॥
जिन जिन नाम तिहारो धिआइआ ॥ दूख पाप तिह निकट न आइआ ॥
Those who mediated on the Name of the Lord, none of the sorrows and sins came near them.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਅਉਰ ਧਿਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰਹੀਂ ॥ ਬਹਿਸ ਬਹਿਸ ਬਾਦਨ ਤੇ ਮਰਹੀਂ ॥੪੧॥
जे जे अउर धिआन को धरहीं ॥ बहिस बहिस बादन ते मरहीं ॥४१॥
Those who meditated on any other Entiey, they ended themselves in futile discussions and quarrels.41.

ਹਮ ਇਹ ਕਾਜ ਜਗਤ ਮੋ ਆਏ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤ ਗੁਰਦੇਵ ਪਠਾਏ ॥
हम इह काज जगत मो आए ॥ धरम हेत गुरदेव पठाए ॥
I have been sent into this world by the Preceptor-Lord to propagate Dharma (righteousness).

ਜਹਾਂ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੁਮ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੋਖੀਅਨਿ ਪਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਰੋ ॥੪੨॥
जहां तहां तुम धरम बिथारो ॥ दुसट दोखीअनि पकरि पछारो ॥४२॥
The Lord asked me to spread Dharma, and vanquish the tyrants and evil-minded persons. 42.

ਯਾਹੀ ਕਾਜ ਧਰਾ ਹਮ ਜਨਮੰ ॥ ਸਮਝ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸਭ ਮਨ ਮੰ ॥
याही काज धरा हम जनमं ॥ समझ लेहु साधू सभ मन मं ॥
I have taken birth of this purpose, the saints should comprehend this in their minds.

ਪਰਮ ਚਲਾਵਨ ਸੰਤ ਉਬਾਰਨ ॥ ਦੁਸਟ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਮੂਲ ਉਪਾਰਨ ॥੪੩॥
परम चलावन संत उबारन ॥ दुसट सभन को मूल उपारन ॥४३॥
(I have been born) to spread Dharma, and protect saints, and root out tyrants and evil-minded persons.43.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਭਏ ਪਹਿਲ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥ ਆਪੁ ਆਪੁ ਤਿਨ ਜਾਪੁ ਉਚਾਰਾ ॥
जे जे भए पहिल अवतारा ॥ आपु आपु तिन जापु उचारा ॥
All the earlier incarnations caused only their names to be remembered.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਦੋਖੀ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਬਿਦਾਰਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਕਰਨ ਕੋ ਰਾਹੁ ਨ ਡਾਰਾ ॥੪੪॥
प्रभ दोखी कोई न बिदारा ॥ धरम करन को राहु न डारा ॥४४॥
They did not strike the tyrants and did not make them follow th path of Dharma.44.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਗਉਸ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਭਏ ॥ ਮੈ ਮੈ ਕਰਤ ਜਗਤ ਤੇ ਗਏ ॥
जे जे गउस अ्मबीआ भए ॥ मै मै करत जगत ते गए ॥
All the earlier prophets ended themselves in ego.

ਮਹਾਪਰਖ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੪੫॥
महापरख काहू न पछाना ॥ करम धरम को कछू न जाना ॥४५॥
And did not comprehend the supreme Purusha, they did not care for the righteous actions.45.

ਅਵਰਨ ਕੀ ਆਸਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਏਕੈ ਆਸ ਧਰੋ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥
अवरन की आसा किछु नाही ॥ एकै आस धरो मन माही ॥
Have no hopes on others, rely only on the ONE Lord.

ਆਨ ਆਸ ਉਪਜਤ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੀ ਆਸ ਧਰੋਂ ਮਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥੪੬॥
आन आस उपजत किछु नाही ॥ वा की आस धरों मन माही ॥४६॥
The hopes on others are never fruitful, therefore, keep in your mind the hopes on the ONE Lord.46.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਕੋਈ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਕੋ ਕੋਈ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਪੁਰਾਨ ॥
कोई पड़्हत कुरान को कोई पड़्हत पुरान ॥
Someone studies the Quran and someone studies the Puranas.

ਕਾਲ ਨ ਸਕਤ ਬਚਾਇ ਕੈ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਨਿਦਾਨ ॥੪੭॥
काल न सकत बचाइ कै फोकट धरम निदान ॥४७॥
Mere reading cannot save one from death. Therefore such works are vain and do not help at the time of death.47.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਕੁਰਾਨਾ ॥ ਬਾਚਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਅਜਾਨਾ ॥
कई कोटि मिलि पड़्हत कुराना ॥ बाचत किते पुरान अजाना ॥
Millions of people recite the Quran and many study Puranas witout understanding the crux.

ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਕੋਈ ਕਾਮ ਨ ਆਵਾ ॥ ਦਾਵ ਕਾਲ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਬਚਾਵਾ ॥੪੮॥
अंत काल कोई काम न आवा ॥ दाव काल काहू न बचावा ॥४८॥
It will be of no use at the time of death and none will be saved.48.

ਕਿਉ ਨ ਜਪੋ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਜੋ ਹੋਇ ਸਹਾਈ ॥
किउ न जपो ता को तुम भाई ॥ अंत काल जो होइ सहाई ॥
O Brother! Why do you not meditate on Him, who will help you at the time of death?

ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਲਖੋ ਕਰ ਭਰਮਾ ॥ ਇਨ ਤੇ ਸਰਤ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਕਰਮਾ ॥੪੯॥
फोकट धरम लखो कर भरमा ॥ इन ते सरत न कोई करमा ॥४९॥
Consider the vain religions as illusory, because they do not serve our purpose (of life).49.

ਇਹ ਕਾਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਹਮੈ ਬਨਾਯੋ ॥ ਭੇਦੁ ਭਾਖਿ ਇਹੁ ਲੋਕ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥
इह कारन प्रभु हमै बनायो ॥ भेदु भाखि इहु लोक पठायो ॥
For this reason the Lord created me and sent me in this world, telling me the secret.

ਜੋ ਤਿਨ ਕਹਾ ਸੁ ਸਭਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥ ਡਿੰਭ ਵਿੰਭ ਕਛੁ ਨੈਕ ਕ ਕਰੋਂ ॥੫੦॥
जो तिन कहा सु सभन उचरों ॥ डि्मभ वि्मभ कछु नैक क करों ॥५०॥
Whatever He told me, I say unto you, there is not even a little heresay in it.50.


Please let me know if you would like me to explain the difference between dharma and religion.

ISDhillon:)

[afriend]

Wow!

That's gonna take a loong time to read.

i'll get back to u tomorow, Allah willing.

[Islam-Sikhism]

Asalaamu 'alaykum

Please ignore the essay from the islam-sikhism site they are unable to counter argue all my refutations but I will answer your question.

Out of all the articles written on our site, you'vee refuted all of them?!?!
Allaahu Akbar!
Do you even know what a refutation is Dhillon?

[ISDhillon]

Asalaamu 'alaykum



Out of all the articles written on our site, you'vee refuted all of them?!?!
Allaahu Akbar!
Do you even know what a refutation is Dhillon?

No I did not refute all articles, but by all means you can engage in this debate.:)

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

Hi ISDhillion how you doing?

Correct me if I am wrong, but I presume you believe that the teachings of your religion to be the truth hence to be followed.

How do we as human beings distinguish between Truth and Falsehood? Which is imperative, otherwise any one of us can formulate a new religion and say it’s the truth?

[QURBAN]

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily Man is in loss,
Except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.”

Holy Quran- (Surah Asr 103:1-3) (Translation By Yusuf Ali)

Peace to those who follow the Guidance!

During the dialogue exchange between us so far- you have kept asking me to do a “paradigm shift” to understand your God- you were saying “he is eternal and not eternal” and “its O.K that it’s a contradiction”- i.e. Eternal + Not Eternal = Truth

Which can be further summarised as follows


God is Eternal = True
God is Eternal = False

Because according to you as you say “contradictions are OK”
(God is Eternal = True + God is Eternal = False) = True

Why is he asking us to accept falsehood as the truth?

If you God is asking us to violate the laws of Non- Contradiction, which makes it impossible to distinguish between truth and falsehood, to understand him- how does he expect us to follow his teachings rather than a man made doctrine- I could invent a new religion saying worship the sun, it will reward you- and you cant say that its false, because according to you God is asking us to accept False as the truth-

See I can understand what you’re saying that he is not bound by logic, I have no problems with that what so ever- but we are, don’t you agree?

Any revelations from him should be a communication of truth to the Mind-

Kind Regards

Qurban

[Soldier2000]

Hi Every Body

I have been following this thread with great interest as a guest on this forum-

How can God be Eternal and Not Eternal at the same time- thats just Ridiculous!

it will be interesting to hear the answer to the following question

How do we as human beings distinguish between Truth and Falsehood? Which is imperative, otherwise any one of us can formulate a new religion and say it’s the truth?

If you deny the law of non contradiction then the answer is You Cant

[HeiGou]

I have been following this thread with great interest as a guest on this forum-

How can God be Eternal and Not Eternal at the same time- thats just Ridiculous!

Why? Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it? Surely your question is no better? The fact is if God exists He is All-Powerful etc and so beyond our comprehension it does not matter whether we think something is ridiculous or not. He can do what He likes.

it will be interesting to hear the answer to the following question

How do we as human beings distinguish between Truth and Falsehood? Which is imperative, otherwise any one of us can formulate a new religion and say it’s the truth?

Indeed any one of us can. And many people have. Most of those religions fail at the first hurdle and disappear. Some of them go on to have long and glorious histories and have millions, if not billions, of converts. In my opinion there is no test we can perform that can prove or disprove God and hence no way of telling the difference between religious Truth and religious Falsehood.

If you deny the law of non contradiction then the answer is You Cant

And if you do not deny the law of non-contradiction I suspect that you still can't. How do you think you can tell a true religion from a false one? Do you have some secret method to prove God's existence?

[Soldier2000]

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?

Thats another ridiculous proposition!
Your living in a logical universe- stick to logic!
dont worry about what he can and cant do, what he reveals to mankind has to be locical and believable to rational mind!

And if you do not deny the law of non-contradiction I suspect that you still can't.

at least its a start- if you dont deny it, you can sthink rationally and at least distinguish the difference between false and truth- do you even know what the law is, let me enlighten you

This law judges as false any meaningful proposition P and its denial, proposition not-P, true at the same time and in the same respect. In the words of Aristotle:
“One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time.”

How do you think you can tell a true religion from a false one?

you can start by not denying that law first off all- then start reading scriptures-

may be its high time you did, instead of making stupid comments!

[HeiGou]

Thats another ridiculous proposition!
Your living in a logical universe- stick to logic!
dont worry about what he can and cant do, what he reveals to mankind has to be locical and believable to rational mind!

It is not that ridiculous. It goes to the heart of what we mean by All-Powerful. It makes us, or it should make us, stop and think what we mean by that when we say it. Of course I am living in a logical universe!

Does it have to be logical? Why then are we expected to accepting things on Faith without asking why? Why is it, for instance, logical to treat adultery more harshly in Islamic law than murder? Indeed I would say that any believer in any faith has to accept that their faith is not logical and believable to a rational mind, but requires a leap of faith to accept what cannot be logical or rational but must be believed. Do you disagree?

at least its a start- if you dont deny it, you can sthink rationally and at least distinguish the difference between false and truth- do you even know what the law is, let me enlighten you

This law judges as false any meaningful proposition P and its denial, proposition not-P, true at the same time and in the same respect. In the words of Aristotle:
“One cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time.”

Well Aristotle was unaware of Quantum mechanics (where an object can exist and non exist at the same time), fuzzy logic (which introduces a range of values between 0 and 1 so that a proposition can be said to be 0.4 True and 0.6 False for instance) and the existence of God being a pagan and all. God can be, and not be, at the same time if He so wishes can't He?

[Soldier2000]

0.4 True and 0.6 False

That equates to false!

fuzzy logic

thats all it is "Fuzzy"

God can be, and not be, at the same time if He so wishes can't He?

How is he God if ceases to exists- its an ungodly act!-

You should stop worrying about what he can and cant do to himself, and start worrying about what he can and will do to you-

[ISDhillon]

Quarban Ji:)

The nature of truth has a definition which is different from the definition your religion has, we call god truth, truth is referred to as sat, what you are referring to when you want to know about the “truth” of Sikhism is what we refer to as sach/right, we as humans cannot distinguish between truth and falsehood but we can distinguish between right and wrong but only through our conscience, truth has no opposite because truth in Sikhism is a concrete entity (spirit) it is not a claim, therefore there is only right/wrong and right and wrong changes as society evolves which is why we have no eternal concrete code of conduct, I may offend many by saying this but a murderer is not evil a murderer can commit an act of evil and reform we learn this through time that reality is not static change and continuity go hand in hand there is not one path. This is post-modern philosophy. Why the need for you to distinguish between other religions, I as a Sikh never have the desire to falsify Islam, I will tell you why because you have a man-made claim that islam is the final revelation and these claims are not written in the Koran, the kalima does not say last and final messenger this is an adage interpreters have attached to the kalima it does not exist. It actually reads that the prophet is the slave of god, and that is ok but god sent a guru in Sikhism not a slave or a prophet

“Which can be further summarised as follows


God is Eternal = True
God is Eternal = False”

I have said that truth is god and god has no opposite god is a being which creates right and wrong, that which you perceive as false exists because it resides in your perception you can then only conclude that there are those things which are not in consonance with the teachings of Islam but truth has no hand in such activities just your personal opinion which suggests that those things are wrong but not false as they exist. Ultimate reality is god and that is the only truth until you achieve a god-like state you cannot deliberate on truth.

“If you God is asking us to violate the laws of Non- Contradiction, which makes it impossible to distinguish between truth and falsehood, to understand him- how does he expect us to follow his teachings rather than a man made doctrine- I could invent a new religion saying worship the sun, it will reward you- and you cant say that its false, because according to you God is asking us to accept False as the truth- “

I hope you have now learned the nature of truth in Sikhism and will understand how far from understanding Sikhism you have been throughout this discussion. Btw it is ok for people to make up religions I will tell you why since Sikhism started their have been up to 50 Sikh sects but we have not attempted to falsify them instead we have given them independent religious status we therefore detach the groups from Sikhism which gives them more honour and makes our people less confused, however with time these groups have vanished the reason being that the “other” arises only out of ego, but when the other achieves glory then there is no longer a purpose for their difference in faith, so once again they become assimilated within mainstream Sikhism. The longer you try to denounce a group of people they will continue to assert themselves if only to give their life some meaning.

However in the case of Sikhism and Islam the status of the “other” is different because of the sovereignty of our doctrine, in this case the other exists in direct contrast to the former whilst both parties stick to their respective identities they reinforce and further define one another’s individual characteristics this is the only solution for a plural society. If Sikhism had been a “false” religion it would have not stood the test of time to date and that is the greatest proof that we are held by an object greater than just self-determination as many from other faiths believe us to be.

“See I can understand what you’re saying that he is not bound by logic, I have no problems with that what so ever- but we are, don’t you agree?”


we are and that is our disease , our mind is what is blocking us from the truth within and you answer this riddle yourself:

“Any revelations from him should be a communication of truth to the Mind-“

is this not self-realisation that I have been saying is the purpose of man. “maan too jot swaroop hai apna mool paachaan” mind you are inspired by the divine essence now recognise your inner potential.

I think what I am trying to say to you that if falsehood exists then it is the mind which is false. I actually wrote a poem a while back to a vociferous Christian apologetic who would not stop trying to convert me:

A poem for the “defenders of reason”

Make love your reason
Make surrender your interpretation
Make change your reality
Make truth your spirit
Make the name of god your question
Make doubt your fallacy
Make hukum your philosophy
Make good deeds your theory
Make equality your law
Make pluralism your conclusion
Make logic your error
Make union your premise
Make mysticism your fact
Make nitnem your formula
Make spontaneity your prediction
Make brotherhood of man your relationship
Make rehat your culture
Make the sword your evidence
Make god your anomaly

I hope you are not offended I will leave you with a quote from SGGS about the annihilation of the mind:

One who kills this is a spiritual hero. One who kills this is perfect. One who
kills this obtains glorious greatness. One who kills this is freed of suffering.
How rare is such a person, who kills and casts off mind's duality. Killing it,
he attains Raaja Yoga. One who kills this becomes fearless. One who kills this
is absorbed in the Name. One who kills this becomes desireless. One who kills
this Realizes the Divine Realm. One who kills this is truly Wealthy. One who
kills this is honorable. One who kills this is truly a celibate. One who kills this
attains salvation. One who kills this — his coming is auspicious. One who kills
this is steady and wealthy. One who kills this is very fortunate. One who kills
this remains awake and aware, night and day. One who kills this is living
liberated. One who kills this lives a pure lifestyle. One who kills this is
spiritually wise. One who kills this meditates intuitively... (sggs 237).


ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Soldier2000]

Mr Dhillion

Your attempt to defend your religion was a joke!

some of the stuff you have come out with defies logic-

How can God be uncreated and eternal when he can be created from memory-

Than you commit intellectual suicide by saying contradictions are O.K which means to say you accept falsehood to be the truth- then why are you arguing in the first place, according to your fuzzy logic everything any body else says to the contrary to your arguments you will have to accept as the truth-

Their are some clowns in this forum,who could not even recognise this very fact- with all due respect- Qurban, Akram and Moss you fir into that catergory-

Then another idiot joins into, who has the audacity to call others idiot, by saying Mr Dhillion is intelegent-
"Your are Lost soul", you really are lost arent you? you fail to realise with your limited knowledge that Mr Dhillions line of thinking anihilates logic and reason, so he is accepting the counter arguments against him as the truth-

Read the dialoge exchange before making idiotic comments-

[ISDhillon]

Soldier2000 Ji

"Your attempt to defend your religion was a joke!"

In one of your earlier post you said that we live in a logical universe therefore you have to use logic to defend your faith I am saying we do not live in a logical universe and so too does science microphysical particles refuse to behave in a rational (causative) manner; they refused to reveal their simultaneous position and momentum at any given point of time. W. Heisenberg, realizing the epistemic inadequacy of reason - of its reductive-analytic method - in knowing reality objectively (independently of the 'subject') propounded his famous principle of indeterminacy. This was an impasse beyond which reason could not go in its comprehension of reality. This impasse of reason is the impasse of modern Western civilization necessitating a paradigm shift in thinking.

"How can God be uncreated and eternal when he can be created from memory-"

because god is incomprehensible.

"Than you commit intellectual suicide by saying contradictions are O.K "

You have cut the branch which you are sitting on and havn't even realized, if i believe in a post modern paradigm then contradiction rational and reason are inapplicable ie, the death of the intellect when discussing the nature of divine essence. Congratualtions you have reached a point of understanding but in your ego you have taken the position erroneuos position that you are victorious but I am laughing at you one could call you almost a clown!

"Mr Dhillions line of thinking anihilates logic and reason, so he is accepting the counter arguments against him as the truth-"

WELL DONE THATS CALLED POSTMODERNISM AND LOGIC AND REASON HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DOCTRINE BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANYONE IDIOTS IT JUST MAKES THEM AWARE OF THE SIKH POSITION.

"Read the dialoge exchange before making idiotic comments"

So what useful thing have you got to add to this debate?

ISDhillon

[HeiGou]

That equates to false!

No it doesn't. Fuzzy logic is the work of a great Iranian mathematician. And there have not been too many of those lately. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic

How is he God if ceases to exists- its an ungodly act!-

Well I said "be" not "exist" but even so, if God wanted to not exist, surely He could?

You should stop worrying about what he can and cant do to himself, and start worrying about what he can and will do to you-

I am sure that is meant in a kind manner and I shall take it that way.

[------]

Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it?

:sl:

Yes he can. That rock is a metaphor of Free Will. God has made free will so humans choose to obey him or not. If God ''lifted'' that free will off then there would be no such thing as free will and everybody would be perfect.

And Allah knows best.

:w:

[QURBAN]

Hi ISDhillion

Make love your reason
Make surrender your interpretation
Make change your reality
Make truth your spirit
Make the name of god your question
Make doubt your fallacy
Make hukum your philosophy
Make good deeds your theory
Make equality your law
Make pluralism your conclusion
Make logic your error
Make union your premise
Make mysticism your fact
Make nitnem your formula
Make spontaneity your prediction
Make brotherhood of man your relationship
Make rehat your culture
Make the sword your evidence
Make god your anomaly

Not sure if i agree with it, but nice poem!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your religion with me- very much appreaciated- i know it must of been a bit frustrating, at some points, but thanks for keeping your cool!


Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

(Holy Quran 109:1-6)

Bear Witness that i am a Muslim

Thank you and All the Best

[ISDhillon]

:sl:

Yes he can. That rock is a metaphor of Free Will. God has made free will so humans choose to obey him or not. If God ''lifted'' that free will off then there would be no such thing as free will and everybody would be perfect.

And Allah knows best.

:w:

Then your god is also not all powerfull compared to mean who has written all that will come to pass, if in fact your interpretation is correct.:)

[ISDhillon]

Hi ISDhillion



Not sure if i agree with it, but nice poem!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and your religion with me- very much appreaciated- i know it must of been a bit frustrating, at some points, but thanks for keeping your cool!


Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

(Holy Quran 109:1-6)

Bear Witness that i am a Muslim

Thank you and All the Best

Thankyou for your kind words :)

Isdhillon

[ISDhillon]

Soldier 2000 Ji:hiding:


"Hence you promote actions such as be-heading etc- "

you failed to see the context with which that was wrtten in,

"1 - Falsify the religion- how is that consistent with the following comments you have made in another thread-"

no i was just being sarcastic but i have discussed the nature of the sikh viewpoint on justice on the thread go have a read then advise.

"What do you mean by its OK to make up religions, if the religion is false, in what way is it OK? "

truth does not have an opposite so then how can anyhthing be false just your perception is wrong, truth is divine essence ie, god and soul and naam.

"2- Imply that it’s an evil act, when you don’t even believe murder is evil"

i was trying to use words which help familiarise the audience to the nature of my assertion its called adapting to your audience.


"By accepting contradictions (Falsehood) as the truth, you violate the law of non contradiction, and you have the audacity to make comments such as “mind is what is blocking us from the truth”


By denying the law of Non contradiction, you are in no position to engage in debates with any one who has a healthy mind; you might as well stop all written, verbal communications now!"

these 2 comments show you did not understand sikhism as i described, the law of non-contradiction was used in science it was never to be used for the nature of god, i have proven this to you in the earlier response i am still waiting for you to counter-argue that, your assertion that by denying the law i am in no position to debate would be true if i considered the nature of god to be the mind but i do not, i consider god to be outside the remit of logic and rational inquiry if you are a scholar who has perhaps always held on to the infallibility of the law of non-contradiction this will be a blow to your ego and I hope you will understand your arguments flawed but if however you can proove that the law of non-contradiction can be applied to the nature of an incomprehensible god then please post here i am eagerly waiting in anticipation, you wont be able to though i am confident of that and at the same time humble.:)

ISDhillon:okay:

[Soldier2000]

Everything you have said so far is false!

[Mohsin]

Hi ISDhillon

Thank you for the post, it's been good, but from it i have several questions that i don't understand

1) So do you believe God sent Vishnu, Brahma and Muhammed as messengers?
2) What does it mean by when it says

Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

Which kings are being referred to here that were circumcised?

3) Also from above quote i think it's not true to say that these former prophets placed their own interest first. if you read the biography of Prophet Muhammed PBUH, he tried his utmost best to ring people back to the Oneness of god, he kept preaching this, and told the greatest sin possible is worshiopping more than One God, since God is only One without a partner. Also you'd learn that one time the enemies of the prophet offered him all the riches in arabia, women money power status, but he refused, as he was fulfilling God's mission, not his own, so he wasn't putting "his own interest first". Also he always preached worship of God, always. So i don't understand the verse "did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone". Can you please explain it

4) I still don't quite understand how God allowed messengers in the past to simply disobey him and not show the true guidance, if that is what you are suggesting. In islam it is so simple, humans went astray, God sent righteous messenegrs to them to show them how God wants them to live and worship him. Bear in mind humans have been around thousands of years, so what exactly is this dharma that was present back then if it was all false or not totally true, why didn't God show a way for people back then. and why has it taken up untill just 1400 years ago for God to show the true way

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Moss ji


1) So do you believe God sent Vishnu, Brahma and Muhammed as messengers?

We believe in the existence of all of those which came to pass the reason for their purpose only god can know and we cannot question gods will.


2) What does it mean by when it says
Quote:
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26.

He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

Which kings are being referred to here that were circumcised?


When your religion was established there were many poor and rich people who became muslims many were inspired by the revelation many were inspired by the charismatic nature of your prophet many kings became muslims when a king became a muslim so too did all those who lived on there lands. In my personal opinion when I read that part I see it as referring to man as a sovereign being and that the god given form is as it is their is no reason to mutilate any part of the body as we are all kings. But when we come under the weight of societal laws morality no longer becomes an indicidual effort and you lose your god-given sovereignty as a human being who is born as god has intended.

3) Also from above quote i think it's not true to say that these former prophets placed their own interest first. if you read the biography of Prophet Muhammed PBUH, he tried his utmost best to ring people back to the Oneness of god, he kept preaching this, and told the greatest sin possible is worshiopping more than One God, since God is only One without a partner. Also you'd learn that one time the enemies of the prophet offered him all the riches in arabia, women money power status, but he refused, as he was fulfilling God's mission, not his own, so he wasn't putting "his own interest first". Also he always preached worship of God, always. So i don't understand the verse "did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone". Can you please explain it

The guru is not saying that your prophet did not bring people to the oneness of god he is saying that the firmness of naam was not given its due by the messenger instead the moral aspect of the revelation ruled the roost, guru nanak made attention to this part of Koran sura 24 in the Koran goes under the name of mishkatul-anwar

God is the Light of the heavens and earth.
The similitude of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp.
And the lamp is within a glass.
And the glass, as it were a pearly star.
This lamp is lit from a blessed tree.
An olive neither of the east nor of the west;
Almost this oil would shine though no
fire touched it.
Light upon Light, God guideth whom He will to His Light,
And He speaketh in parables to men, for He knoweth all things.

The light which guides man is naam but these parts of the revelation have been given no consideration by muslims. In Sufism they have extracted many concepts similar to Sikhism from the Koran to understand the path of naam I think they refer to naam as Ism-e-A’zam’ and the satguru is referred to as Kamil-murshid. This is some more info I got of the web about islam and self realisation: Creation comprises of 1. Nasut (Material region) 2. Malkut or Musalli (Astral) [Ruler: Khuda] 3. Jabrut (Causal) [Ruler: Allah] 4. Lahut, Hahut & Hutalhut (two Supra-causal regions with an intermediate region) [Rulers: Rabb & Anahu] & 5. Haq (Truth) [Ruler: al-Haqq]. Likewise, their practices comprises of: 1. ‘Zikr’ (remembrance), 2. ‘Tasawwur’ (concentration) & 3. ‘Shughal’ (inner listening) covering stages of: 1. ‘Shari’a’: rules for external conduct, 2. ‘Tariqat’: path of purity and remembrance leading to contact with Kalma at the ‘Nuqta-e-Suwaida’ (Third Eye), 3. ‘M’arfat’: inner path leading to communion with the Lord & 4. ‘Haqiqat’: "fana-fil-Sheikh" (merger with Murshid) or self-realization leading to "fana-fil-Allah" (merger with the Lord).


4) I still don't quite understand how God allowed messengers in the past to simply disobey him and not show the true guidance, if that is what you are suggesting. In islam it is so simple, humans went astray, God sent righteous messenegrs to them to show them how God wants them to live and worship him. Bear in mind humans have been around thousands of years, so what exactly is this dharma that was present back then if it was all false or not totally true, why didn't God show a way for people back then. and why has it taken up untill just 1400 years ago for God to show the true way

the simple reason is that people went astray from the core message and at that time god did what he did in my personal opinion out of mercy because life was a living torment prior to guru nanaks coming, I cannot know the will of god I can only accept it otherwise my questions will never stop. I will show you again how the guru suggests muslims have strayed from dharma:

(Ang 140)
imhr msIiq isdku muslw hku hlwlu kurwxu ]
mihur museeth sidhuk musulaa huk hulaal kuraan
Let mercy be your mosque, faith your prayer-mat, and honest living your Koran.
srm suMniq sIlu rojw hohu muslmwxu ]
surum sunnath seel rojaa hohu musulumaan
Make modesty your circumcision, and good conduct your fast. In this way, you shall be a true Muslim.
krxI kwbw scu pIru klmw krm invwj ]
kurunee kaabaa such peer kulumaa kurum nivaaj
Let good conduct be your Kaabaa, Truth your spiritual guide, and the karma of good deeds your prayer and chant. qsbI sw iqsu BwvsI nwnk rKY lwj ]1]
thusubee saa this bhaavusee naanuk rukhai laaj
Let your rosary be that which is pleasing to His Will. O Nanak, God shall preserve your honor.

Guru Nanak Dev Jee has made it crystal clear in this Shabad to become a pure Muslim or a pure minded being; virtuous living is of highly importance.

(Ang 141)
pMij invwjw vKq pMij pMjw pMjy nwau ]
punj nivaajaa vukhuth punj punjaa punjae naao
There are five prayers and five times of day for prayer; the five have five names.
pihlw scu hlwl duie qIjw KYr Kudwie ]
pehilaa such hulaal dhue theejaa khair khudhaae
Let the first be truthfulness, the second honest living, and the third charity in the Name of God.
cauQI nIAiq rwis mnu pMjvI isPiq snwie ]
chouthee neeath raas mun punjuvee sifath sunaae
Let the fourth be good will to all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord.
krxI klmw AwiK kY qw muslmwxu sdwie ]
kurunee kulumaa aakh kai thaa musulumaan sudhaae
Repeat the prayer of good deeds, and then, you may call yourself a Muslim.
nwnk jyqy kUiVAwr kUVY kUVI pwie ]3]
naanuk jaethae koorriaar koorrai koorree paae
O Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and only falsehood.

ISDhillon

[unbreakable]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

:salaam: to my Muslim brothers and sisters.

Over the years I have read many threads like this, on many Islamic forums, where they claim to actively, wanting to learn, but it’s really quite the opposite. (Most are run by immature minded kids who “think” they know what they are talking about, but in fact are just repeating somebody else’s words”)

Hence I put forward my offer to any Good Muslim brother or sister.

If you genuinely want to "learn" about Sikhism, then please ask questions and accept the answers.

Sikhism is a completely different to Islam, this is a fact, as is Islam different to Sikhism.

We have no problem with Islam or its teachings, if you are a Muslim, then by all means all power to you my brothers and sisters.

Why spend your time here speaking filth from your mouth, clearly when that mouth which Allah has given to you should be used to speak of his praises?

Why spend your minds energy to think of ways to put people down, when you should be putting that mind to use by concentrating on Allah and how to serve Allah better?


BUT, if you want to slander, then please keep on your side of the grass, for if you step over you will fall back without your head intact. (Metaphorically speaking that its. ;o) )

It is extremely EASY to sit behind a PC and talk filth. Why not we meet in person to talk about how great Allah is?

So if there is anybody who wishes to learn, then please go ahead, ask, respect and accept, otherwise we can come down to your level as well. As the Americans say, “bring it on”.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Take care brothers and sisters, as I always do, I shall do Ardas that Allah may bless you with wisdom and may you become Khalis Muslims.

:peace:

Unbreakable.

[Mohsin]

:sl: bro

We do like to sing praises of allah, but we also like bringing people to the true path of Allah in our eyes. You obviously dont think this is true so fair enough, but since this is an islamic forum, and we want to spread the teachings of islam to others, and since these other sikh bros came onto this forum, they are bound to be given da'wah

[Link]

Salam alaicom

in the Quran, we are taught Prophets (as) were sent to all people in all times

irfan - tawasuf is one of the teachings in the Quran and Sunna, ISDhillon quoted a verse in the Quran that pertains to these teachings

"Who knows himself, knows God" "Seek knowledge even if you have to go to China, for it is knowledge of the self", etc, was a one of the messages conveyed by Mohammad (saw)

The holy spirit could have two interpetations, I have a different interpetation, it acknowledges that Jibrael (as) is it but in the degree of Angelic realm, but he is not the definition of it, the spirit of command in the infallible humans is higher then the Angelic realm, it is a spiritual realm beyond theirs including Jibrael (as) and the Quran refers to this as "they ask you about the spirit, say it is the command of my lord and you have been given only little knowledge of it" (suratal Isra)

my suggesting to shiekhs is not to take what some less-informed muslims and scholars have to say about the teachings of Islam, but see the books of great arifs like Abdul Qadir Al-Jilani and Khomeini and they will point you to some overlooked verses of the Quran and hadiths

Sikhs to me seem that they however only want to focuss on this aspect of the message of the Prophets (as) and ignore all other aspects of life, such as social and political aspects

The Quran and the Sunna deal with all aspects, and deal with them in a detail way that nothing can be added or nothing can be missing, their is nothing beyond the first 6 verses of suratal hadeed and suratal tawheed/ikhlass according to report from Imam Sajad (as)

57:1-2
Whatever is in the heavens and the earth declares the glory of Allah, and He is the Mighty, the Wise.

He is the First and the Last and the Outward and Inward, and He is Cognizant of all things.

The verse 57:2 is a teaching of the Quran, however it is not the only teaching, the parable of light of the Quran in the chapter of light is the goal of shariah and the social and political aspects of the message, which is perhaps why some of the social laws dealing with fornication and the law of hijaab is found in the chapter of light along with the parable of light, and the strict social rulings are the introduced in the begining of the chapter

To say Mohammad (pbuh) didn't focuss on this aspect in detail is not a totally unfair statement, however it is not totally accurate and in a way is unfair

while the deep teachings of marifatal nafs and mystical aspects of Quran were not taught to all people, they were taught to some of his special companions like Salman Farsi (as) and in full detail to his holy family, more particullarily Ali (as)

He (saw) then said "I am the city of knowledge, and Ali is it's gate, so who wants the knowledge and wisdom, should come by it's gate", and all spiritual lines of spiriutal teachings (sufi and irfan lines) with exception of one go back to Ali (as)

However, Islam has come for all levels of mankind and deals with all levels and aspects of mankind, which include social and political aspects of society

Sikhhs perhaps do not understand the link of politics and social aspects with the spiritual aspects, this is where we differ, if you read supplication arafa of the grandson of Mohammad (saw), Imam Hussain (as), and the whole event of aushura, perhaps you will begin to see the link

To get a taste of some of the spiritual aspects in our religion, I will post some supplications from his holy family (as)

http://--------------/sahifa/dua80.html

The whispered prayer of the knowers

In the Name of God, the All-merciful,
the All-compassionate

1 My God,
tongues fall short of attaining
praise of Thee proper to Thy majesty,
intellects are incapable of grasping
the core of Thy beauty,
eyes fail before gazing
upon the glories of Thy face,
and Thou hast assigned to Thy creatures
no way to know Thee
save incapacity to know Thee!
2 My God,
place us among those
within the gardens of whose breasts
the trees of yearning for Thee have taken firm root
and the assemblies of whose hearts
have been seized by the ardour of Thy love!
They seek shelter
in the nests of meditation,
feed upon the gardens
of nearness and disclosure,
drink from the pools of love
with the cup of gentle favour,
and enter into the watering-places
of warm affection.
The covering has been lifted
from their eyes,318
the darkness of disquiet has been dispelled
from their beliefs and their innermost minds,
the contention of doubt has been negated
from their hearts and their secret thoughts,
their breasts have expanded
through the verification of true knowledge,
their aspirations have ascended
through precedent good fortune in renunciation,
their drinking is sweet
from the spring of devotion to good works,
their secret thoughts are delicious
in the sitting-place of intimacy,
their minds are secure
in the place of terror,
their souls are serene
through the return to the Lord of lords,319
their spirits have reached certitude
through triumph and prosperity,
their eyes have been gladdened
through gazing upon their Beloved,
their settling place has been settled
through reaching the request and attaining the expectation,
and their commerce has profited
through the sale of this world for the next!
3 My God,
how agreeable for hearts are
the thoughts inspiring Thy remembrance,
how sweet
travelling to Thee through imagination
upon the roads of the unseen worlds,
how pleasant
the taste of Thy love,
how delightful
the drink of Thy nearness!
So give us refuge from Thy casting out and Thy sending far,
and place us among
the most elect of Thy knowers,
the most righteous of Thy servants,
the most truthful of Thy obeyers,
the most sincere of Thy worshipers!
O All-mighty, O Majestic,
O Generous, O Endower!
By Thy mercy and kindness,
O Most Merciful of the merciful!

http://--------------/sahifa/dua77.html

The Whispered Prayer of the Lovers


In the Name of God, the All-merciful,
the All-compassionate

1 My God,
who can have tasted the sweetness of Thy love,
then wanted another in place of Thee?
Who can have become intimate with Thy nearness,
then sought removal from Thee?
2 My God, place us with him
whom Thou hast
chosen for Thy nearness and Thy friendship,
purified through Thy affection and Thy love,
given yearning for the meeting with Thee,
made pleased with Thy decree,
granted gazing upon Thy face,
shown the favour of Thy good pleasure,
given refuge from separation from Thee and Thy loathing,
settled in a sure sitting place in Thy neighbourhood,
singled out for true knowledge of Thee,
made worthy for worship of Thee,
whose heart Thou hast captivated with Thy will,
whom Thou hast picked for contemplating Thee,
whose look Thou hast made empty for Thee,
whose breast Thou hast freed for Thy love,
whom Thou hast made
desirous of what is with Thee,
inspired with Thy remembrance,
allotted thanksgiving to Thee,
occupied with obeying Thee,
turned into one of Thy righteous creatures,
chosen for whispered prayer to Thee,
and from whom Thou hast cut off all things
which cut him off from Thee!
3 O God,
place us among those
whose habit is rejoicing in Thee and yearning for Thee,
whose time is spent in sighing and moaning!
Their foreheads are bowed down before Thy mightiness,
their eyes wakeful in Thy service,
their tears flowing in dread of Thee,
their hearts fixed upon Thy love,
their cores shaken with awe of Thee.
O He
the lights of whose holiness
induce wonder in the eyes of His lovers,
the glories of whose face
arouse the longing of the hearts of His knowers!
O Furthest Wish of the hearts of the yearners!
O Utmost Limit of the hopes of the lovers!
I ask from Thee love for Thee,
love for those who love Thee,
love for every work which will join me to Thy nearness,
and that Thou makest Thyself more beloved to me
than anything other than Thee
and makest
my love for Thee
lead to Thy good pleasure,
and my yearning for Thee
protect against disobeying Thee!
Oblige me by allowing me to gaze upon Thee,
gaze upon me with the eye of affection and tenderness,
turn not Thy face away from me,
and make me one of the people of happiness with Thee
and favoured position!
O Responder,
O Most Merciful of the merciful!


However, we muslims are looking for guidance for all mankind and believe in a revelation that deals with all aspects of mankind

The Quran is also a book brought down to all lower and dark realms and extending to all high spiritual realms, so it extends to all yet it's true treasure are only for the truly purifed, and Mohammad (saw) initially recieved it at certain level through Jibrael (as) (at a very high level) and then was revealed aspects of it beyond Angelic realms in his sacred night journey, while at the same time, it was brought down in reduced degrees of it's glory till it reach the state it is now, which all of mankind, including dark souls like me, can benefit from, yet at the same time having all the higher teachings yet within it for all the friends of God to strive for by mediating on the noble verses, as for Mohammad (saw) he reached the most closest position to God that is not imaginable by the likes of me, and saying he only had indirect relationship to God through Jibrael (as) is not accurate at all, the holy spirit in the Prophets (as) and Successors (as) eventually reach a state higher then Angelic realms although the initial holy spirit was through Jibrael (as), and The Quran has many sciences that are unknown to us but are known to the sacred man who's heart recieved it and his pure holy family who's hearts to were able to recieve it's complete teachings through Mohammad (pbuh)

peace

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Link Ji,

I enjoyed reading your post thankyou for your valued contribution,I do however disagree with you on the political and social aspects, in sikhism we believe that only after you have treaded the spiritual path will man be able to conduct himself in social and political arenas the way god has intended, because spiritual path awakens mans own moral conscious the problem with islam is some people are not spiritually enlightened yet are punished, how can you punish someone who is ignorant of the truth within as far as sikhism is concerned you punish the innocent ones because they are asleep to the spirit life. This is why Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji instituted the concept of miri-piri which was that the sikhs have temporal and spiritual authority however the flag of piri (spiritual path) flyers higher than the flag of miri (temporal power) and this is also the reason why the 2 swords cross one another on the khanda, because the sword of miri defeneds the sword of piri, ie, we have to uphold the right of all people to acheive self-realisation even if they are criminals, we can only punish those who are committed to taking the right to live from others because life is an opportunity to tread on the spiritual path. Infact sikhism is the only religion on earth which deals with the the changing reality in modern and post-modern society because collective authority is bestowed upon the corporate body politic known as khalsa and to this day we have never been defeated by any oppressors throughout history in fact we have gained respect from all our enemies even the moghuls, bahadar shah actually saw the light of allah in Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji and as a gift gave the 10th guru Hazrat Ali's (the prophets son -in-law") sword as a token of his esteem I have seen this at anandpur sahib, this was an incredibly great act of reverence to the sikh guru from the then mughal emporor.

Anyhow I have since now not come back to this forum because as moss quite rightly has pointed out above that members originally were invited to this site because of proposed allegations against sikhi, after successive failure of dawaah the conversation ended and I hope whilst you may not believe in sikhism you will take away something positive from this discussion I know I can be strong-willed but that is because I know I have found a path which does not create any doubt in my mind and I hope you have all found that path in Islam.

Thanks

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[chacha_jalebi]

oooo kiddhaaa dillionnn puttar :p


can i ask u 1 question, i dunno if its true or not matey,

wasnt guru nanak ji a muslim before? n didnt he go on hajj?

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Chachajalebi Ji,

I like your name:)

No Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was not a muslim I have addressed these allegations in the previous posts please read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and see what Sri Guru Nnank Dev Ji says about the path of Islam and you will get yur answer, Guru Nanak Dev Ji actually stated after he received divine ordinance from god that their is no muslim or hindu the ahmeddiya community have spread alot of viscious rumours about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji all of which centre around a cloak that he recieved from a qazi when he went on his udasi (holy preaching) to mecca he did not go on hajj he went all over the world to many pilgrim station but renounced such practices as manmat (mental appeasement). Anyway the cloak is in a gurdwara call dera baba nanal and because the cloak has arabic writing on it the ahmeddiyas say he was a muslim it has been revoked by all sikh and non-sikh scholars but many islamic websites continue to repat these lies because Islam as a doctrine is unwilling to acknowledge anything after the demise of their prophet.

I hope that helps and please the whole thread alot of these missives have already been done and dusted,

ISDhillon:)

[chacha_jalebi]

okie dokie ji puttar, so me does have sum knowlegde of sikhism, cos i used 2 go skool n hav bare sikh mateys!! :p

i hav heard sum sikhs say inshallah, n stuff wer does dat cum from? or is dat jus a 1 off tin? 4 get ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it :p

[ISDhillon]

"i hav heard sum sikhs say inshallah, n stuff wer does dat cum from? or is dat jus a 1 off tin? 4 get ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it :p[/QUOTE]"

I dont know why they say inshallah but as faras I am aware inshallah means godwilling and anyone can say that, its like sometimes i say "oh my god" but that doesnt mean i am christian.

Anyway what does "ahmadiyaas dey jus beggin it " mean? I didnt understand this perhaps i am not that cool and down with the lingo innit wicked safe massive lol:giggling:

ISDhillon

[chacha_jalebi]

lol inshallah means, Allah willin, lik up2 Allah (swt),

i was meant 2 say Ahmadiyyas r lik jus beggin 4 acceptance n stuff so no point in gettin involved wit em!! or listenin 2 em!! :)

so so so so, in sikhism wat is guru nanak jis position? lik is he a scholar? god? messenger?

[ISDhillon]

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Satguru which means someone whose soul is dwelling in the lord at all times he was not a messenger or scholar because he was always with god we believe the "word" is god and guru not the "body" of nanak.

ISD

[chacha_jalebi]

okie dokiee

matey, i have heard dat guru nanak ji disappeared, but he has a grave in pakistan? now wots dat bout?

matey y dnt u visit d ova sections of d website, its gud u no!! lik d basics of islam n stuff, hmmm im askin u questions bout ur religion u ask me aswell lol

[sonz]

salama

chk this out

Author: ISDhillon
Date: 04-30-06 16:55

Its not worth it cos I have revoked all their articles so far and they havn't put my rebuttals up but instead they continue to debate with me offline, UNSUCESSFULLY, let me just break it down for you it all started with oxford islam site then I went on to the islamicboard website :

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...4-sikhism.html

when i defeated them their I then started on this yahoo site but they dont want to debate with me in public cos they know I will embarass them,

anyways dont worry about it when they are ready to accept defeat I will shame them.

ISDhillon

ISDhillon 05-04-2006 12:42 AM
How to silence a muslim?

Well folks I have just finished having a long debate with muslims who were challenging sikhi and they have been defeated:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...4-sikhism.html

Noone responded back so I take it that they have conceeded defeat and its just ego and jealousy left now:u): . Anyways just thought i would post the link here so that people can give jawaab when muslims get too proudy proudy:D . I have also been debating offline with the yahoo islam-sikhism site but they have never got back to me cos they know their wrong and they wont put my views in their comments section either but I have decided that internet is free and we cant stop everyone from writing crap because some people love crap:whisling: .

ISDhillon:wah:

ISDhillon why ru spreading lies???

[chacha_jalebi]

DILLION PUTTAR :ooh:

[ISDhillon]

salama

chk this out





ISDhillon why ru spreading lies???

What lies I am telling you to your face I have answered all the questions did you think this would in some way expose me if so how?, read the pages from the beginning where mir aziz started the debate how many lies did you write about my religion and not one single person has been able to refute them instead after I left the site another member started her own mental appeasement exercise which was allowed to go on for a while but them was closed down cos as always her arguments were going no where have a look:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...on-divine.html

and that is why all that is left when noone can refute the arguments is jealousy and lies!!

Please advise!

ISDhillon

[ISDhillon]

Look folks you can get the uncut version here:

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/contro...-a-muslim.html

Theres nothing to hide if you want to find a criticism you will find it!! People have said alot worse of sikhi than we ever do of islam now thats for sure come on sonz for a trainee moderator you sure arnt doing very well are you perhaps more training is due?

ISDhillon

[Link]

ISDhillion, to us the Shariah get's you to 'enlightenment', it doesn't make sense that everyone is allowd to do what they want because that would only make it easier to follow desires , like, for example, if it was not a sin and there was no penalty to go have sex with girls without marrying, I would go do it, while a noble servant of God, like (Yusuf) Joseph (as) the great grandson of Ibraheem (as), would not do it even if their was no punishment the prison house was beloved to him then what the women were calling him to, and he sought refuge with God lest he be among the ignorant (which you become when you let your passions dictate you)

one of the noble virtues is that you help people, well these harsh laws and penalties help people not become ignorant and controled by their passions, it helps them get pushed to the light, ofcourse, they have to inwardly push themselves too which no one can do for them, but having a government with God given laws to us is essential


in anohter angle, why follow man made laws and not God laws? why make our own laws? is not God the most wise and best for judging and choosing? we don't know everything, some years back, I couldn't see what would be wrong with going to dances, etc, now I got more wisdom, but atleast because the law was there, I stayed away from it and all praise belongs to God, I don't find myself among the ignorant ones

Look at the west which is run by the polythiestic Satan submitting magicians and look at Iran, which society is more dedicated to God? Before the Iranian revolution, was the society as dedicated to God as it is now? When implenting God's rule and government dedicated to God and his revelation, then society naturally improves

Islam means submission, so we submit to God in all affairs, we don't look for judgement of other then God in any of our spiritual, social, or political affairs

peace

[ISDhillon]

"if it was not a sin and there was no penalty to go have sex with girls without marrying, I would go do it, while a noble servant of God, like (Yusuf) Joseph (as) the great grandson of Ibraheem (as), "

yes and this prooves that you have a coice it is sad that you would do it if it were not a sin because to me to sleep around is not a sin my conscious says sex is something sacred so i would want to share that with only one person it never comes in my mind that it is a sin a sin is what goes against your conscience and therefore conscience is a virtue of the soul which is gods law not man-made if i lived in iran i would have started a revolution to overthrow these ayatollahs a long time ago, if iran was such a good place to live then why do we have so many asylum seekers escaping from such tyranny please see passed your idealism your way does not work imho.


"one of the noble virtues is that you help people, well these harsh laws and penalties help people not become ignorant and controled by their passions,"


these laws make me angry which is also a strong passion and i would never hesitate to kill those who pass these harsh sentences in my religion i have a god given right to uproot such barbarians we have been doing so since our inception and have never failed ours is not an immoral society yet we have no such laws man and women are kings and queens in my gurus eyes and noone will tell us what is good for us because "sovereignity is a vehicle for self-realisation" i dont want to belittle your shriah but i can standby something which plagues my conscience.

"but having a government with God given laws to us is essential"

then go and live where such laws exist and leave the rest of to live as we see fit and essential to us.


"in anohter angle, why follow man made laws and not God laws? why make our own laws? is not God the most wise and best for judging and choosing? "

whats man-made i have already told you to live by conscience and tht is truly godly it can move mountains the human spirit has done alot for manking by the grace of vaheguru.


"Look at the west which is run by the polythiestic Satan submitting magicians and look at Iran, which society is more dedicated to God? Before the Iranian revolution, was the society as dedicated to God as it is now? "

two things: firstly the west is great and we should all be eternally greatful for the contribution of the west to civilisation i do not buy the satan stuff i think the west has the will of god and good luck to them this is not an attack on islam when i say this.

secondly ask someone from iran who ayatollah khomenie was and where he came from and you might get a rude awakeining ask a tribal person they will tell you the truth the mother of all conspiracies.!!!


"Islam means submission, so we submit to God in all affairs, we don't look for judgement of other then God in any of our spiritual, social, or political affairs"

you can only submit to the prophet not the laws that are written this is learned when the 5 beloved ones willingly gave their heads to the guru for the love of the guru this cannot and will not happen today cos today it goes against our conscience to even respect such laws forgive me i must say what is write i bear no emnity to anyone.

Gurfateh!

ISDhillon:)

[muslimah19]

Hey ISDHILLON, whats hapnin all good yeh??

Rite so this debate has been goin on for a while n i got confused half way thru but am beginning to kind of understand sikhism. Im probably going to end up repeating what other brothers and sisters here have said but i just need ur patience ok.

So sikhism is not about who the founder of the religion is nor is about gaining rewards for ur patience or punishment for your wrong doings. We are put on this earth as individuals and just pray to the creator. I didnt quite understand whether there is an after life?! N if so do we know of its features?

Im not sure it was u or one of the very first sikh posters, but had mentioned that it does not matter whether you are sikh, hindu, christain or muslim, as long as u devote ur life to god then your are achieving the goal of your life, is this true?? So what would become of the atheist then?

Id appreciate a response

thanks for the in put tho

[Link]

alright, I see you just want to stick to your blind opinions and even "conspiracy theories" , since you don't want to logically discuss theoratical matters, then just stop responding, just because you get a last post it doesn't mean you "won", but ofcourse you can see it that way if you want

on a theoratical bases, we don't see the point of following man made laws and judgements instead of laws and judgemens from God

you have your opinion, and you are willing to fight and do revolutions for it, but we don't have ours, we simply submit to God and are willing to fight and do revolutions for that

your opinion towards politics and social matters is your own, whatever you choose to follow is your own opnion and has no value to anyone who truly believes in God's wisdom, we are looking towards God's commandments and are proud to be the only religion in the world that values God's wisdom over opinion in all matters of life

peace

[amardeep]

Gurfateh
Bismillah Al Rahman al Rahim.

I have followed this debate for quite a time now, and would like to answer the questions given that has not been answered properly yet.
But then I will again address that im not interested in an debate, so my answer will be the only reply from me and then im out.
Guru Nanak said “Truth is higher, but higher is truthful living”
This means, that if you need to show you love the Creator, then serve your fellowman instead of spending hours in stupid debates onto which religion is the best. If you love your creator, do something good for your fellowman.

Then I would like to thank you for your modesty, respect and kindness towards us.


I will answer the following questions which some of you has given.

Who does the rest of the world belong to?
Is reincarnation a punishment or a reward?
How can all religions take you to paradise if they contradict eachother
Who was there before God as he created himself.
The verse om circumsicion.
Kabir- Son of God


Ill start in chronological order:

Who does the rest of the world belong to?


In the Guru Granth Sahab we can read these verses:

alahu eaek maseeth basath hai avar mulakh kis kaeraa ||

If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong?

The mosque that is being talked about is the Kaaba in Mecca, and the tafseer to this verse is quite logical. Muslims belive the Kaaba to be the house of God

022.026
YUSUFALI:; and sanctify My House
PICKTHAL: and purify My
SHAKIR: and purify My House

All the above mentions that the Kaaba is the house of God. And also it is a common belief among muslims that the Kaaba is the House of God on earth.

Muslims pray towards the Kaaba, and according to Shia Islam and the imams (as) they are not allowed to expose their genitals and behinds towards this direction.

A muslim prayer is not accepted if it has been made towards another direction than the Kaaba IF the person knows in which direction the kaaba lies.

The verse in SGGS is written in a sentence so that we can imagine this with our mind and therefore it says “lives in the mosque”.

A person in a house is restricted. He can only see what goes on outside if he looks out the window. If he does not look out of the window then the person in the house will not know what goes on.
A muslim prayer is not accepted if it is not done towards Mecca, which implies that God can “only see” the prayer if it is made towards him in Mecca. So the SGGS asks “who does the rest of the world belong to? “if I can only worship Allah in one direction? If I pray towards New York, then who is my prayer addressed to?

That’s how it should be understood. The Guru’s never accepted the Islamic “claim” of only being able to pray against the Kaaba, as God is everywhere and knows and hears everything. If you say that u can only pray to one direction for the prayer to be valid, then it must mean that God lives in that mosque as all he can see is if the prayer is made towards the kaaba..the same way a person will only know what goes on outside a house, if he looks out the window.


Is reincarnation a punishment or a reward?

This is a complex question, so I will answer it without to much details because the reincarnation theory is very difficult to explain fully.

U see, u cant use reincarnation without Karma as they go together hand in hand.

but in short. For some reincarnation is a punishment, and for others it is a reward. That is why some people live a horrible life on earth where they are miserable and bad things constantly happens to them. That’s why people are poor and starving in Africa etc. they are being punished.

But others live a happy life without any sorrow or bad things happening to them. For them it is a half reward. They have maybe not been able to achieve paradise in their past life, but they have been good people, so therefore they will not be punished, but live a neutral life.

How can all religions take you to paradise if they contradict eachother?
This is actually very simple when u think about it.

But first tell me one think. Do u think that your love/devotion to Allah swt is bigger than the Christians love for Jahve? Or the Sikhs love for Waheguru?

If you know people of other faiths, then your answer will be no. because a Christian loves God as much as a Muslim loves Allah swt. So why should this person be punished in hell for something he truly belives is right and which he loves? What an evil God this is, because he calls the God a different name.
In sikhi it says:

One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.
Guru Nanak Dev
Page 142, Line 8

Which means that, yes everyone can go to Paradise BUT, there are some “rules” and this is that the person has also been a good person. A muslim or Christian thinking he will go to Paradise just because he belongs to the “right religion” and does bad deeds will not enter hell.
So the rules for everyone are “Worship and love God, and do good deeds”.. this is the only criteria.

This also means that a religion that tells u to kill and beat up people will not enter paradise as they did’n follow that other criteria of being good.


Page 1102, Line 7

without good karma, you shall obtain nothing, even if you wander across the whole world.
Guru Arjan Dev

And the criteria for a religion in SGGS is:

Of all religions, the best religion
is to chant the Name of the Lord and maintain pure conduct.
Of all religious rituals, the most sublime ritual
is to erase the filth of the dirty mind in the Company of the Holy.
Of all efforts, the best effort
is to chant the Name of the Lord in the heart, forever.
Of all speech, the most ambrosial speech
is to hear the Lord's Praise and chant it with the tongue.
Of all places, the most sublime place,
O Nanak, is that heart in which the Name of the Lord abides. ||8||3||

this means that Worship God and love him in your heart while doing good deeds will take you to paradise. Islam, Christianity and Judaism all tell u to do this. So why should a mercifull God punish people for loving and obey God in the way they think is the right?

So who cares if u think God is three(Christianity), God is one(Sikhism and Islam) or he is within a statue(hinduism) as long as you love him?

This my friend is pure logic, and this is so beautiful. God loves all.







Who was there before God as he created himself.

I don’t know about this and have never read anything about It, but the way I interpret the verse is:

God was there, EVEN before he existed. It may sound weird, but again and again in SGGS it is mentioned that the human mind will never be able to understand the mystery of God.
God is all powerfull, so why should’n he be able to create himself while not being there?

To this theory , u cant use Islamic logic on a different religion. We Sikhs have a different view and we do not share your view. For instance we say God is within all, while still being above all. This will probably also sound weird to you if u interpret it in Islamic view.
And let me tell you, that u will never get anywhere by doing this, because u will never find nor accept an answer that way. Christians say that Jesus is God, which emplies God has a human body. If they use their Christian logic/view on this verse from the Quran:

055.027
YUSUFALI: But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.

They can say that Allah swt is a human being because he has a face. Hence, they are using their own Christian logic on Islam. Other verses mention a throne, which could also emply that God is a humanbeing that can sit astagfarallah!!.

So if you ask a question, then try to think like them and go into our mind and see the logic, instead there is no reason for us to answer your questions.

Another way to understand this verse is that it should not be taken literally, and “created himself” means that he created the universe, as God is within the universe (think like us and don’t use Islamic views now).

And then the third can be read here from our beloved javanmard who also uses Islamic quotes on answering the question:
http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawa...pic.php?t=8486

in short: God is eternal like in Islam.


The verse regarding circumsicion.

In SGGS it says:
Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.
If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

And you said that nowhere is this mentioned in the sunnah or Quran, but this does not mean that the SGGS is then a false non-divine script.. in many places in SGGS the Guru talks about things that people are doing while calling themselves religios people EVEN THOUG these actions has nothing to do with religion. In the same way it says that Circumcision is done of love for women. The Quran uses the same feature, as to talk about things connected to a religious group even though their scriptures does not mention it. For instance it is said in the holy Quran that Christians belive in trinity even though this is not mentioned anywhere in the bible. It also says that jews made ezra the son of God even though this is not mentioned in the bible.

The same way SGGS says that circumsion is done for the love of women, because this is what people were saying in the times of Kabeer.

I haven’t looked for any sources, but I have one text which says that the muslim rulers back then would circumcise u, and then u were a muslim. This is what Kabeer is talking about. Circumsission does not make one a muslim, even though people said it...here is the relevant part of the story:

One day when the Guru was presiding over the sangat, a man came crying, "The Turks
(Muslims) have converted me to their religion."
"How could they convert you to the religion of Turks?" asked the Guru.
"O True King, they have circumcised me."
"One does not become a Turk by circumcision alone. What else have they done to you?"

Even in modern times we hear the the muslims use the action of circumcision to say whether a person is Muslim or not. During the partition of India, when Sikhs, hindus and muslims were fighting and killing each other, then when the muslims captured some Indian men, they would strip them down, and if they were not circumcised(meaning they were not muslims) then they would be killed. I have heard of this also during a war between Israel and libanon I think.

So the Guru ask’s “If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?“

Is circumcision all that makes one muslim? That’s the questions it asks those that think like that.

According to the one about “love for a woman” I have not heard of this before, but SGGS would not mention it unless people say that it is due to love for the woman. Contrary I found this:

Book 41, Number 5251:
Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

It talks about circumsicion of women I know, but it still talks about “better for a woman, and more desireable for a husband” so why should it not also go the other way around?




Kabir- Son of God

kabeer poo(n)garaa raam aleh kaa sabh gur peer hamaarae ||5||

Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

we are all the sons and daughters of God. Don’t take that verse literally. u guys by anyone should know that u cant take a religious scripture literally..unless u think Islam tells u to beat up your wives?

4:34

Pickthall:
“As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.”
Shakir:
“and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them;”

Scourge means to whip someone.. is this to be taken litteraly? Or the translation that says beat them?

Thou art my father, Thou art my mother, Thou art my kinsman and Thou art my brother. In all the places Thou art my protector. Then why should I feel fear and anxiety?" (Guru Arjan Dev, Majh, pg. 103)

We also say God is our husband, wife, father and mother, and this means that he is EVERYTHING to us. Don’t take it litteraly my friends.



I hope this has answered your questions.. im out for now.

Waleichum Salaam

ps. why all this missionary and preaching. let people live according to the religion that God put them in.

[Link]

That’s why people are poor and starving in Africa etc. they are being punished.

But others live a happy life without any sorrow or bad things happening to them. For them it is a half reward. They have maybe not been able to achieve paradise in their past life, but they have been good people, so therefore they will not be punished, but live a neutral life.

subhannallah, may God save anyone from such an evil belief!! Islam teaches a very different teaching regarding to suffering and being patient, because all Prophets (as) suffered and the believers generally were always the poor and oppressed of society, while the opposers of Prophets (as) were always the upper class of society

the poor and oppressed according to hadiths, have been chosen over the rest of mankind and paradise is meant for them and they are in it, while the rest of mankind can only enter paradise by doing good to them and loving them

no, no, we believe in rising against oppressors and defending oppressed, not complementing the oppressed and rich and condemning the poor and oppressed, subhannallah, I never seen a more evil statement, all those people in Africa are being punished by Allah (swt) while the rich of the west are being rewarded? Ya Allah, we seek refuge from such a view, and we will strive till your promise of destroyingthe oppressors and being kind to the oppressed and meek in the earth takes place

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Amardeep,
Welcome to the forum.

Muslims belive the Kaaba to be the house of God

Your misunderstanding is that you interpret that phrase to mean 'the dwelling of God', which is completely contrary to Islam. "house of God" is the phrase which means that it is the house that is reserved entirely for the worship of God. The Qur'an uses the style of attribution where those things that have a special status with God are mentioned as belonging to God. For example, in another verse God says:
91:13 But the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Saalih pbuh] said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah [Ar. Naaqat-Allahi]. And (bar her not from) having her drink!"

When Saalih's people, the thamud, requested a sign God produced this miraculous camel as one of His signs - the Qur'an here refers to it as 'the camel of God' simply because of its special status, NOT meaning that it is used by God, na'ûdhubillah.

A muslim prayer is not accepted if it is not done towards Mecca, which implies that God can “only see” the prayer if it is made towards him in Mecca.

Not true. The Ka'ba simply unifies the worship of God in a single direction. For a time, the Jerusalem mosque was the qiblah and not the Ka'ba, until the ruling was changed in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh. This indicates that the important thing is that man be unified in a direction of worship ordained by God.

But first tell me one think. Do u think that your love/devotion to Allah swt is bigger than the Christians love for Jahve? Or the Sikhs love for Waheguru?

If you know people of other faiths, then your answer will be no. because a Christian loves God as much as a Muslim loves Allah swt. So why should this person be punished in hell for something he truly belives is right and which he loves? What an evil God this is, because he calls the God a different name.

Okay first of all, we must agree that despite numerous religions the truth ordained by God can only be one. As the Bible says, God is not the author of confusion. Nor does He lie. He does not reveal one religion with a set of beliefs that are mutually contradictory to those He reveals in another religion. So the first point is to acknowledge that the true path is one.

Secondly, we as human beings must acknowledge that God has not abandoned us in a world of confusion; He has given us the ability to think and reflect upon revelation. Once someone has acknowledged the existence of the one true God than it is only logical that they submit themselves to Him and follow the way of life He has revealed with His prophets. This way of submission to God is what we call in arabic, Islam. So, as God has sent messengers throughout the time of human beings to continuously call them back to the worship of the one God, human beings have an obligation to make use of the mental capabilities God has provided us to seek out the truth. So the Christian who loves God will be asked why, if he truly loved God, did he not seek out the truth and contemplate - why did he satisfy himself believing in self-contradictory beliefs and reject the pure message of Tawhid, Risalah and Ma'ad which the Prophets brought.

Now how God will judge such a person is a totally different matter. It is not for us human beings to decide who is condemned and who is saved - that is God's position. He will judge everyone according to their circumstances and their intentions and He will decide whether they are to be rewarded or punished. And verily He is the most just and He does not the least bit of injustice to His creaton.

Which means that, yes everyone can go to Paradise BUT, there are some “rules” and this is that the person has also been a good person.

How do you defined what 'good' is if everyone has a different system of life? The western concept of morality would be sinful from the pespective of all semitic religions. And what about the atheist who does good deeds while disbelieving in God? Does he deserve to be rewarded with a paradise he denied to exist? When he did not do his deeds for the sake of God, why should he be rewarded by God?

This also means that a religion that tells u to kill and beat up people will not enter paradise as they did’n follow that other criteria of being good.

But what do you do when it comes to the subjective areas? What defines what is good or not? Are you using kantian philosophy that immorality is ONLY in causing harm to non-consenting others? On what basis do you believe that this is the only true understanding of morality?

Islam, Christianity and Judaism all tell u to do this. So why should a mercifull God punish people for loving and obey God in the way they think is the right?

Because they had the audacity to act on what they thought was right and reject what God ordained to be right. Human beings can think and reflect, we don't have to blindly follow something just because our parents did. Our obligation is to find the truth.

So who cares if u think God is three(Christianity), God is one(Sikhism and Islam) or he is within a statue(hinduism) as long as you love him?

First, to say He is in a statue is one of the most blasphemous insults one can direct towards God. There is no value in claiming to love Him if you accept illogical and insulting beliefs concerning Him and reject the truth which He has revealed. If I started slandering you in the media and started propagating lies about you, saying that you were dishonest and so on and rejecting all your rights, is it an acceptable excuse to say, "But I love you" ? If you believe that God is everywhere and consequently that part of God is in sinful human beings who will be punished in hell-fire, and consequently part of God will be tormented in hell-fire - this is falsehood and inexcusable blasphemy!

True love of God is not in accepting whatever falsehood one hears, but in acknowledging Him as He is striving to come closer to Him.

God was there, EVEN before he existed. It may sound weird, but again and again in SGGS it is mentioned that the human mind will never be able to understand the mystery of God.

It has nothing to do with mytsery, you just made a self-contradictory statement.

Another way to understand this verse is that it should not be taken literally, and “created himself” means that he created the universe, as God is within the universe (think like us and don’t use Islamic views now).

You don't need to use an Islamic view, just use simple logic and one can see the self-contradictory nature of such a statement.

we are all the sons and daughters of God. Don’t take that verse literally. u guys by anyone should know that u cant take a religious scripture literally..unless u think Islam tells u to beat up your wives?

This is not an issue of whether to take a verse literally or metaphorically, it is simply taking a verse in context. Your misconception is answered here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34

ps. why all this missionary and preaching. let people live according to the religion that God put them in.

God didn't 'put' us in any religion other than submission to Him. It is the human being's choice to either blindly follow the beliefs of their parents, no matter how self-contradictory and foolish, or to instead seek out the truth and use the reasoning that God has gifted us with.

Peace

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji:)

I will try to answer your questions in a quick sentence as I have a lot of other members, as you can see above, to deal with but your questions on this subject are welcomed. Firstly:


“So sikhism is not about who the founder of the religion”

the founder is the word which exists today in 2 forms bani which is the word in guru granth sahib ji and the guru panth (khalsa) which is the corporate body politic of the guru which have been ordained by god to carry out all temporal affairs on this earth for eternity.


“ is nor is about gaining rewards for ur patience or punishment for your wrong doings. “


there are no rewards, good and bad deeds are akin to creating a manifesto for your next life (karma) salvation is spiritual oneness with god which comes through naam simran or meditating on the lords name, not prayer.

“We are put on this earth as individuals and just pray to the creator.”

Prayer is not enough.

“I didnt quite understand whether there is an after life?! N if so do we know of its features?”


rebirth and life forms exist which are on this earth, there are many forms of life we cannot see but people are still existing in them such as spirt life forms.

Let me know any more questions I will answer them shortly.

Gurfateh,:thankyou:

Satsriakal Link Ji:)

Firstly I am going to say that I have not been pig-headed and the responses from you so far are a feeling of dislike because I do not and will not accept your islam as a godly religion I have answered before the nature if koranic revelation and will not been drawn into the same argument because of your denial.

“I see you just want to stick to your blind opinions and even "conspiracy theories"

what are you referring to as blind? My Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only word of god on this planet because it was written by the gurus hand no other scripture has the same appeal it doesn’t matter whether the companions wrote it in their hearts and minds, stop and think. Conspiracy theory? – well did you ask an Iranian and what did they say?

“since you don't want to logically discuss theoratical matters”

I have never said that we cannot logically discuss theoretical matters what I do however say is that the essence of god is not logical these are 2 separate things had you understood my argument you would see that arriving to this conclusion was illogical.

“, then just stop responding, just because you get a last post it doesn't mean you "won", but ofcourse you can see it that way if you want”

ofcourse and you can say the same I will not stop responding because I feel that my religion is the only hope for mankind and therefore it is my duty to not leave a stone unturned and challenge all manmat in what ever form.

“on a theoratical bases, we don't see the point of following man made laws and judgements instead of laws and judgemens from God”

nor do we, guru panth has gods authority to rule, this is why everyday in the ardas we say “agayaa bhai akal ki thabaai challayoo panth” – by the will of god the khalsa goes into battle, and you know during the wars with the people of the NWFP in moghul times the afridis used to have a saying “khalsa shudaa khudaa” – even khalsa are believers in god. We do not believe your revelation came from god and I have proven this umpteen times please reread the whole thread and don’t be lazy.

“and you are willing to fight and do revolutions for it, but we don't have ours, we simply submit to God and are willing to fight and do revolutions for that”

those who live by the will of god are the powerfull ones because god gives to those who abide by his instruction, look in the world today and see who really has the will of god, people know the existence of something and appease their minds instead of admitting their wrong, is this abiding by his will or negating it to save your ego? Be truthfull if you are a muslim.

“your opinion towards politics and social matters is your own” please don’t say that gods religion is my opinion, Sikhism is the only religion of akal purakh which is accepted by all, even those who follow totalitarian creeds, that it makes sense and gives hope for the future of mankind I see no other, just desperation.

“we are looking towards God's commandments and are proud to be the only religion in the world that values God's wisdom over opinion in all matters of life”

more scribbles, I could say the same: I think it best if you muslims bow out gracefully and let us Sikhs bring the message of god to the world, islam died in the 17th century when our gurus done and dusted the mughals and now your just feeding of the remains of the carcass that was once islam, at that time mothers were scared to circumcise their kids because the of the khalsa but now you have gone into isolation and your egos have now been redeemed but history can repeat itself – see this I can write a bunch of stuff too but ultimately its my opinion as was yours, but mine was more facetious wouldn’t you say?. Be adult and I will respect you otherwise I will give you the same with interest.


“may God save anyone from such an evil belief!!” - - it would only be evil if we then did not provide a free langar for those who are poor which we do, so really whilst accepting the will of god we still try to better those who have created their own unfortunate situation please try to not make knee jerk reactions there is good reason and good faith in all we believe.

“because all Prophets (as) suffered and the believers generally were always the poor and oppressed of society, while the opposers of Prophets (as) were always the upper class of society”

trust me when I say this: suffering in Sikhism is incomparable.

“Ya Allah, we seek refuge from such a view, and we will strive till your promise of destroyingthe oppressors and being kind to the oppressed and meek in the earth takes place”

blind rhetoric, I went on a yatra last year to India and I will tell you that muslims were the greatest refuge in the gurdwara they were given places to stay and a meal 3 times a day, many were refugees from Kashmir but we Sikhs did not turn them away but we believe it is their karma all the same again please try to see passed your own nose. There are many things which I wholly dislike about islam but i dont think its cos your religion is evil just misunderstood.

Satsriakal Ansar Al-adl Ji:)

“"house of God" is the phrase which means that it is the house that is reserved entirely for the worship of God.”

That’s fine but still there is no house which is reserved for the worship of god except your own body, which is indeed the temple of god which is what Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is trying to make clear .

“This indicates that the important thing is that man be unified in a direction of worship ordained by God.”

So are you saying that you can still be accepted as a muslim and still pray in the opposite direction because if in islam you teach a specific direction then what will become of the prayer in the opposite direction surely if there is no consequence and its just for unity then one can pray anywhere and will not be judged? Do you know during the gurus time people were severely punished if they did not adhere strictly to such measures?

“So the first point is to acknowledge that the true path is one.”

We do not believe this, you are setting a premise here we believe man has created this premise himself it is not godly as Sikhism does not say this. It is neither logical or truthfull to say their can only be one path because it depends on your definition of truth, does truth really have a moral character or have we been brought up to believe that,eg, that which is right is true, that which is good is true? Don’t be a slave to a common frame of reference free your mind from this bondage.


“But what do you do when it comes to the subjective areas?”

this is because the definition of truth is a subjective quality inherent in an individual their can never be objective truth, if their is a hat on your head then you ask me is their a hat on my head i will say yes their is a hat on your head but that is not the truth but it is right that their is a hat on your head, this is why the word truthiness has now been added to the oxford dictionary because the definition of the word truth was changed by Christians the truth was never objective because truth is divine essence failing to understand this people hijack gods revelation and think they have god in the grasp of their palm but god is the only knower.

“First, to say He is in a statue is one of the most blasphemous insults one can direct towards God. There is no value in claiming to love Him if you accept illogical and insulting beliefs concerning Him and reject the truth which He has revealed. If I started slandering you in the media and started propagating lies about you, saying that you were dishonest and so on and rejecting all your rights, is it an acceptable excuse to say, "But I love you" ? If you believe that God is everywhere and consequently that part of God is in sinful human beings who will be punished in hell-fire, and consequently part of God will be tormented in hell-fire - this is falsehood and inexcusable blasphemy!”

ONLY IN ISLAM!!!!

“just use simple logic and one can see the self-contradictory nature of such a statement.”

If it is contradictory then why not show how and we will address it.

“or to instead seek out the truth and use the reasoning that God has gifted us with.”

No, god does not ask someone to seek out truth because god IS truth, therefore the reason and logic business is your opinion it has nothing to do with god, god says the truth is within seek it by meditating on his name don’t be lost in the quagmire of reason and logic, by giving truth a reasonable character you continue to operate in a paradigm which never had anything to do with islam no matter how educated a person is the simple minded one found the mystery that the truth was within it was never outside.

Ansar Al-adl Ji what I have noticed from your response to Amardeep Ji is that whether wilfully or not you have not accepted a universal approach to comparative religion I think this is why there is always a counterargument to nearly all arguments, where god is concerned there is only one god, it the way we humans have contemplated on these messages then subsequestly thought that such approach could be applied to all of gods messages, that is delivering a deadly blow to the pride of faith followers.

Anyhow I hope you receive all the reward that you are entitled to, I am sure you probably have judged yourself by using the Koran and calculated all your good deeds through reason and logic, so now you can sit back and just wait for the good life in the hereafter I don’t mean this offensively it just sounds that this is possible from your response, but for us Sikhs the path is long and arduous only with the grace of god will we be imbued with naam.

Let me know if you have any questions on Sikhism and if you have any problem understanding our doctrine put it forward and we will answer.


Have a nice day :thankyou:

ISDhillon:)

[ISDhillon]

Aiesha please do not come onto the sikhism thread and pollute this conversation I stand by all I have said and do not feel that you have a right to make any accusation about sikhism without incurring a penalty, so if you have something to say about sikhism then please do so, I have noticed that many people are picked off from this site by moderators and I am not scared of meeting this same fate but fear not the truth is immortal and I and my people are hear today and everyday whether on this forum or outside of this forum ready to challenge any of the propsterous nonsensense being spouted about our great religion.

CYA!!!

[muslimah19]

IsDhillion im actually glad that u have decided to stay on. Im interested in the beliefs of sikhism, not for the sake of converting, but simply due to the fact you manage to defend your faith quite well.

Im not suprised you do, because the founder of sikhism did not object against any other faith, rather he integrated all of them rite??

But before i go on i am curious as to whether how you believe the quran was revealed? Are u under the impression that its text are just word of men?

And sister aisha i appreciate yuor concern, but i feel as though as long we remain firm and steadfast in our deen, then it can do no harm.

From this read we can reflect upon surah kafirun, n be reminded allah is aware of all that is happening in this duniya

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Say: O you that reject faith!

2 I worship not that which you worship,

3 Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4 And I will not worship that which you worship,

5 Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6 To you be your way, and to me mine.

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji:)


"rather he integrated all of them rite?? "

He said that religions were formed, religion in sikhi is referred to as mat but his objection was that dharma had stopped, dharma is where people are actively engaged in feeding the poor, giving to charity directly, defending the downtrodden regardless of any distinction, treating all equally whether they share your belief or not etc etc . At that time only the title muslim hindu jain buddhist remained but the way of righteousness in these religions had stopped the butchers ruled the roost and used the religion for their own ends, when babar invaded india Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji confronted babar in front of his army and shouted "BABAR TU JHABBAR" - babar you are a tyrant, he was subsequently thrown in jail and then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji sang a revelation which plagued babars conscience and he was released from prison the revelation is from babarvani:

iqlµg mhlw 1 ]

thilang mehalaa 1 ||

Tilang, First Mehl:

16 NULL NULL


jYsI mY AwvY Ksm kI bwxI qYsVw krI igAwnu vy lwlo ]

jaisee mai aavai khasam kee baanee thaisarraa karee giaan vae laalo ||

As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.

16 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


pwp kI jM lY kwblhu DwieAw jorI mMgY dwnu vy lwlo ]

paap kee jannj lai kaabalahu dhhaaeiaa joree mangai dhaan vae laalo ||

Bringing the marriage party of sin, Babar has invaded from Kaabul, demanding our land as his wedding gift, O Lalo.

17 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


srmu Drmu duie Cip Kloey kUVu iPrY prDwnu vy lwlo ]

saram dhharam dhue shhap khaloeae koorr firai paradhhaan vae laalo ||

Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood struts around like a leader, O Lalo.

17 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


kwjIAw bwmxw kI gl QkI Agdu pVY sYqwnu vy lwlo ]

kaajeeaa baamanaa kee gal thhakee agadh parrai saithaan vae laalo ||

The Qazis and the Brahmins have lost their roles, and Satan now conducts the marriage rites, O Lalo.

18 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


muslmwnIAw pVih kqybw kst mih krih Kudwie vy lwlo ]

musalamaaneeaa parrehi kathaebaa kasatt mehi karehi khudhaae vae laalo ||

The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.

19 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


jwiq snwqI hoir ihdvwxIAw eyih BI lyKY lwie vy lwlo ]

jaath sanaathee hor hidhavaaneeaa eaehi bhee laekhai laae vae laalo ||

The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo.

19 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev

KUn ky soihly gwvIAih nwnk rqu kw kuMgU pwie vy lwlo ]1]

khoon kae sohilae gaaveeahi naanak rath kaa kungoo paae vae laalo ||1||

The wedding songs of murder are sung, O Nanak, and blood is sprinkled instead of saffron, O Lalo. ||1||

1 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


swihb ky gux nwnku gwvY mws purI ivic AwKu msolw ]

saahib kae gun naanak gaavai maas puree vich aakh masolaa ||

Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord and Master in the city of corpses, and voices this account.

1 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


ijin aupweI rMig rvweI bYTw vyKY viK iekylw ]

jin oupaaee rang ravaaee baithaa vaekhai vakh eikaelaa ||

The One who created, and attached the mortals to pleasures, sits alone, and watches this.

2 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


scw so swihbu scu qpwvsu scVw inAwau krygu msolw ]

sachaa so saahib sach thapaavas sacharraa niaao karaeg masolaa ||

The Lord and Master is True, and True is His justice. He issues His Commands according to His judgement.

2 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


kwieAw kpVu tuku tuku hosI ihdusqwnu smwlsI bolw ]

kaaeiaa kaparr ttuk ttuk hosee hidhusathaan samaalasee bolaa ||

The body-fabric will be torn apart into shreds, and then India will remember these words.

3 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


Awvin ATqrY jwin sqwnvY horu BI auTsI mrd kw cylw ]

aavan athatharai jaan sathaanavai hor bhee outhasee maradh kaa chaelaa ||

Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

4 Tilang Guru Nanak Dev


sc kI bwxI nwnku AwKY scu suxwiesI sc kI bylw ]2]3]5]

sach kee baanee naanak aakhai sach sunaaeisee sach kee baelaa ||2||3||5||

Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5||





"But before i go on i am curious as to whether how you believe the quran was revealed?"

I believe it was revealed by an angel called jibreel

" Are u under the impression that its text are just word of men?"

no

"but i feel as though as long we remain firm and steadfast in our deen, then it can do no harm."

well said

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Say: O you that reject faith!

2 I worship not that which you worship,

3 Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4 And I will not worship that which you worship,

5 Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6 To you be your way, and to me mine.[/QUOTE]"

i think this a beautiful revelation which was I was referred to by Quarban Ji from this very forum I agree with it.

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Trumble]

U have done UR duty trying to explain to dillion about islam....now if he dont listen then im afraid thats his loss!

my advice to u is completly ignore dillion and let him know that anything irrelevant he writes he is merrily talkin to himself.......leav him be!!!

let th mods an admins deal with him

"Deal with him" in what way? I thought this was a "comparative religion" forum, not a "lecture the kaffirs about islam and stuff them if they don't convert" forum!

A comparative religion forum must, by necessity, have and encourage explanations of and discussions about several different religions, and you will never get a significant understanding of any faith unless you hear from someone who lives it, and has not just read about it.

I personally find ISDhillon's posts fascinating, as Sikhism is a religion I know - or at least knew - very little about until now.

[ISDhillon]

"Deal with him" in what way? I thought this was a "comparative religion" forum, not a "lecture the kaffirs about islam and stuff them if they don't convert" forum!

A comparative religion forum must, by necessity, have and encourage explanations of and discussions about several different religions, and you will never get a significant understanding of any faith unless you hear from someone who lives it, and has not just read about it.

I personally find ISDhillon's posts fascinating, as Sikhism is a religion I know - or at least knew - very little about until now.

Thankyou Trumble Ji :) your words give me hope to carry on and explain my religion more.

Thanks,

ISDhillon:)

[muslimah19]

hey,

okay so religion in itself is man made, but the concept of life is to worship a creator and that is the only true message, even if it mean multiple god, as long we realise there is a supreme force beyond us....rite?

So you believe in the quran being the word of god is that rite? It is not the word of our prophet mohemmed (pbuh), and it was revealed by angel gabriel.

From here i can commence and say that you believe in the quran then. Because if it is the word of god, then it cannot be a lie. Does that mean you also believe in the bible, torah etc etc.

To some extent i agree with religion being made up. As muslims believe that the message rite from the beginning of time has been that there is only one god, allah. As scriptures were sent down, they were constantly being altered by man. But islam has been the prevalent message. Does that make sense???

What i dont understand is the point of this life then. So you believe in reincarnation. Depending on how much you have dedicted your life to your supreme lord, you will either have a good life when u cross over or you will have a bad life. You gave an example of africa. What happens to then now then. They suffer n they suffer n they suffer n they die. Do they live again, but in a better life or an even worse. Once your born your either a beliver or your not. if your a different person in your next life how is that a punishment and how do you recitfy your mistake.

See now with islam, the quran is our proof and guidance. It states our way of life. It clearly tells us our purpose of life. Allah created man and jinn to obey and worship him. It is constantly repeated in the quran, that if one comits a sin, but sincerely repents, he shall be forgiven by his lord. If allah was not merciful there would be mo hope for mankind, as human are prone to maing mistakes, one after the other. But this is the test of life. And if we succeed in passing this test, and that is exactly as you have said, to pray, be charitable etc etc, then you will enter paradise in the herafter. That is eternal bliss. There are no more test there after. So in reality we are only being tested once. If we pass this test then the rest will come with ease by the grace of allah.

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji, :)

I have had this discussion already but will recall passed discussions when answering this. Let me explain this again we believe that koran is a message about god from an angel called gabrielle we believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is god because it is divine expression it was not delivered via a messenger it is from the one who was all-achieving ie, one with god, it has performed many miracles please read the medical reports and testomonies of naam:

http://www.gurunanakhealing.com/srkan/testimonials.htm

Second half of your post deals with after life let me describe what I have learned from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji about afterlife:


Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a "love-inculcator" the verses whether taken literally or metaphorically are not the point in terms of "practicing sikhism". The verses exist to stir emotions which will cause a raptourous love affair with the bani and through this undying love you repeat the name of god with devotion night and day. Knowing what will become of us is not important, sikhism is a practical religion which strives to make man acheive the purpose of human birth by using poetry and kirtan, for example it is not possible for a man to use the rules of logic to describe the feeling of love with his wife there is not a set of guidelines governing the emotion in the same sense there is not a set of rules governing the love in gurbani it just exists and those who are caught in the grip of the love will sing the same bani with love.

When the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji talks about hell and heaven it is talking about reincarnation, tell me what in your description of hell does not already happen on this earth?, what in your description of heaven can you not get on this earth?, 84 lakhs (species) etc are a religious and cultural similarity which is adopted in the bani to make it more familiar with the people in indias existing references, it stipulates that there will be reincarnation for all those who did not acheive union. Let me just add some quotes about self-realisation:

Thaakur sarbe samanaa: God is all-pervading everywhere (sggs 51).
Paarbraham aprampar devaa. Agam agochar alakh abhevaa: The Supreme Being is Infinite and Divine; He is Inaccessible, Incomprehensible, Invisible and Inscrutable (sggs 98).
Is gufaa mahi ik thaan suhaaiaa: There is beautiful place within this cave of the Heart (sggs 126).
Pritam basat rid mahi khor: My Beloved lives in the cave of my Heart (sggs 1121).
Is gufaa mahi akhut bhandaaraa. Tis vich vasai hari alakh apaaraa: Within the cave of Heart, there is an inexhaustible treasure. Within this cave, the Invisible and Infinite Lord abides. He Himself is hidden, and He Himself is revealed; He is realized through the Shabad (sggs 124).
Aap pachhaanai ghar vasai haumai trisnaa jaai: Through Self-Realization, one dwells Within the Home of his inner Being; egotism and desire depart (sggs 57).
Aatam mahi Ram ram mahi aatam cheenas Gur beechaaraa: God is in the Soul, and the Soul is in God. This is realized through the Gurmat (1153).
Brahm deesai Brahm suneeyai ek ek vakhaaneeyai. Aatam pasaaraa karan haaraa parabh binaa nahee jaaneeyai: The One Unique Reality is seen everywhere, the Unstruck Celestial Music is heard everywhere, the One Creator is present in all creation; there is none else than He Himself everywhere (sggs 846).
Tohee mohee mohee tohee antar kaisaa. Kanak katik jal trang jaisaa: O Lord, You are me, and I am You — what is the difference between us? We are like gold and the bracelet, or water and the waves (sggs 93).
Sagal Banaspati mahi baisantar sagal duudh mai gheeyaa. Ooch neech mahi joti samaanee ghat ghat maadhayu jeeyaa: Just as the fire is contained in all firewood and butter is contained in all milk; so too is God’s Light contained in the high and the low; the Lord is in the hearts of all beings (sggs 617).
Aatam Ram Ram hai aatam Hari paayeeyai Shabad veechaaraa hai: The soul is the Lord, and the Lord is the soul; by engaging in the Shabad Vichaar, the Lord is found (sggs 1030).
Ghar baithiyaan Hari paaye sadaaa chit laaye sahje sat subhaaye: You wiall obtain God while sitting within the home of your own being, focusing your consciousness constantly upon Him, with true intuitive faith (sggs 246).
Bin Shabdai Pir na paayeeai birthaa janam gavaay: Without the Shabad, one does not find her Husband Lord, and her life wastes away in vain (sggs 31).


Intellect is not a requirement for love we all go crazy when we fall in love intellect and sanity is lost. God does not exist in nature he is outside the realms of body/mind understanding we have to first realise our spirit then we can understand otherwise your level of understanding is taking a quantum leap hence we are manmukh, until we are gurmukh we see things that can be reasoned through this mind.


Now some quotes about reincarnation sorry to paste this but it is important that you understand how much we believe in the concept of reincarnation:

Jevehe karam kamaavadaa tevehe phalte: According to the deeds which one does, so are the fruits one obtains (sggs 317).
Kirat payiaa na metai koyi: Past actions cannot be erased (sggs 154).
Jehaa beejai so lunai karma sandraa khet: As the man sows so does he reap. Such is the field of actions (sggs 134).
Kirat karam ke veeshure...: By the actions we have committed, we are separated from You.... (sggs 133).
Karnee kaagad man masvaan buraa bhalaa dui lekh pae. Jiyu jiyu kirat chalaae tiyu chaleeai tayu gun naahee ant hare: Actions are the paper, and the mind is the ink; good and bad are both recorded upon it. As their past actions drive them, so are mortals driven. There is no end to Your Glorious Virtues, Lord (sggs 990).
Ahi karu kare su ahi karu paaye koee na pakarreeai kisai thaai: As we act, so are the rewards we receive; no one can take the place of another (sggs 406).
Karmee aavai kaparhaa nadree mokh duaar: By the Karma of the past actions the robe of this physical body is obtained, and by God's Grace the gate of salvation (sggs 2).
Haumai sabh sareer hai hayumai opati hoe: Ego is within all the bodies; and through ego the beings are born (sggs 560).
Sanjogee aayaa kirt kamaayaa karnee kaar kamayee: By the good fortune of good deeds done in the past, you have come, and now you perform actions to determine your future (sggs 75).
Poorab janam ko lekh na mitayee janam marai ka kayu dos dhare: The record of one’s past actions cannot be erased; who else is to blame for one’s birth and death (sggs ).
Nanak kamaanaa sang juliyaa nah jaayi kirat mitaayaa: Nanak, only your actions will go with you; the consequences of your actions cannot be erased (sggs 460).
Janam maran dukh pher karam jeeya janam te shoote: The pains of birth and death come from past actions and karma; peace comes when the soul finds release from reincarnation (sggs 475).
Good deeds and bad deeds—the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma or Justice. According to their own actions, some are drawn closer to God, and some are driven farther away. Those who have meditated on the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked righteously — O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them (sggs 9).




On page 1028 of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib between verse 8-9 of Maru M1:
“And lo, one is drowned in the well of hell, and comes to sorrow as the fish does the fish without water,
the worshipper of maya comes to pass through the hell of the 84-lak species”


So the fish is in its created state and the hell for it in this creation is to be without water in the same sense a human being will also suffer what causes it hell within the domains of its creation. The second line speaks for itself. Now I am going to say something which is gonna sound like I contradicted my self but I havn’t and that is there are hell places which are assigned to souls by dharamraja but they do not have eternal suffering they all come back to the wheel of 84 after their due. These teachings also cannot be black and white they resemble an overarching definition and when looked at in their totality they give credence to all definitions of heaven and hell reincarnation and suffering, there is space for all faith definitions within the domains of sikhi.

Look here is an example of hell in SGGS:

"There is a stream of fire from which comes poisnous flames.
There is none else there except the self.
The waves of the ocean of fire are aflame.
And the sinners are burning in them." (A.G. p 1026)

look at the possible scenarios available to a sinner for the crime of lust:

O lust, you lead the mortals to hellish existence; you make them wander in reincarnation through countless species. You cheat the consciousness, and pervade the three worlds. You destroy meditation, penance and virtue. But you give only shallow pleasure, while you make the mortals weak and unsteady; you pervade the high and the low. Your fear is dispelled in the Saadh Sangat, O Nanak, through the Protection and Support of the Lord (sggs 1358).

The talk about fire in one of the above shabads is used to arouse an emotion as I have stated in the beginning such emotions cause the seeker to become devoted even more to the lord. As kabir suggests:

Desire not abode in heaven, nor fear dwelling in hell.
Whatever will be, will be, don’t preoccupy your mind with hopes.
Instead, let us sing wonderful Lord’s praises.
From whom we get most precious treasure. Kabir Ji, Raag Gaudi, Pg. 337

Now there is no physical location the guru granth sahib describes the netherworlds as:

Heaven is not a fort with moats and ramparts, and walls plastered with mud; I do not know what heaven’s gate is like.||3|| Says Kabeer, now what more can I say? The company of the true and the wise ones heaven itself (sggs 1161).

So like in the previous thread the words cannot describe the structure if there is one of hell or heaven it is an experience of spirit. Remember that social reform requires that such verses be emotive we have to look at the scripture in this sense for eg we have to get people out of the way of thinking that ritualised prayer will give you deliverance its all about inculcating feelings. To awaken your soul to the true reality.

I hope this helps please let me know if I can explain further,:)

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello ISDhillion :),
Thank you for your post.

Before I begin, I just wanted to point out that with long posts if you don't use the [quote] feature, it makes it difficult to follow. To quote someone simply type:

[quote]the text that you are quoting[/quote]

That will make things a lot easier, inshaa'Allah.

“"house of God" is the phrase which means that it is the house that is reserved entirely for the worship of God.”

That’s fine but still there is no house which is reserved for the worship of god except your own body,

Not so. The Mosques are houses reserved for the worship of God.

“This indicates that the important thing is that man be unified in a direction of worship ordained by God.”

So are you saying that you can still be accepted as a muslim and still pray in the opposite direction because if in islam you teach a specific direction then what will become of the prayer in the opposite direction surely if there is no consequence and its just for unity then one can pray anywhere and will not be judged?

Since God has ordained for all human beings to pray in the direction of the Ka'ba, then praying in another direction would be rejecting God's commands. Yes it is about unifying the worship of God in one direction, but it is the direction which God has ordained for us not wherever we choose. If everyone just prays in the direction that they choose then no one will be praying in the same direction anymore, and the whole unity is lost.

“So the first point is to acknowledge that the true path is one.”

We do not believe this, you are setting a premise here we believe man has created this premise himself it is not godly as Sikhism does not say this. It is neither logical or truthfull to say their can only be one path because it depends on your definition of truth, does truth really have a moral character or have we been brought up to believe that,eg, that which is right is true, that which is good is true?

Actually it is a simple point of logic. One person says that God wants us to do X and another person says that God has prohibited doing X. Both of them can't be right. Only one of them can be correct.

One person says that there are three Gods. Another person says that there are not three Gods. Both of them cannot be right. One statement is true and the other statement is false.

“But what do you do when it comes to the subjective areas?”

this is because the definition of truth is a subjective quality inherent in an individual their can never be objective truth, if their is a hat on your head then you ask me is their a hat on my head i will say yes their is a hat on your head but that is not the truth but it is right that their is a hat on your head, this is why the word truthiness has now been added to the oxford dictionary because the definition of the word truth was changed by Christians the truth was never objective because truth is divine essence failing to understand this people hijack gods revelation and think they have god in the grasp of their palm but god is the only knower.

You didn't answer my question. Let's go with some examples - is suicide right or wrong? Is cannabalism right or wrong? Is necrophilia right or wrong?

ONLY IN ISLAM!!!!

So from a logical perspective either it is blasphemy or it isn't. It can't be both.

“just use simple logic and one can see the self-contradictory nature of such a statement.”

If it is contradictory then why not show how and we will address it.

No problem. The statement was:

and “created himself” means that he created the universe, as God is within the universe

The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.

“or to instead seek out the truth and use the reasoning that God has gifted us with.”

No, god does not ask someone to seek out truth because god IS truth

Yes, God is the truth. How does that impky that we are not supposed to seek out the truth?

therefore the reason and logic business is your opinion it has nothing to do with god, god says the truth is within seek it by meditating on his name don’t be lost in the quagmire of reason and logic

So you are saying that human beings don't need reason and logic? We should throw away our intellect and just blindly follow the ways of our ancestors, no matter how misguided?

by giving truth a reasonable character you continue to operate in a paradigm which never had anything to do with islam

How so?

no matter how educated a person is the simple minded one found the mystery that the truth was within it was never outside.

The truth is no mystery.

Ansar Al-adl Ji what I have noticed from your response to Amardeep Ji is that whether wilfully or not you have not accepted a universal approach to comparative religion

Well I'm not sure what kind of approach you want me to take if you say that I am not supposed to use any logic or reasoning!!

Anyhow I hope you receive all the reward that you are entitled to, I am sure you probably have judged yourself by using the Koran and calculated all your good deeds through reason and logic

Not my position. That's God's.

Let me know if you have any questions on Sikhism and if you have any problem understanding our doctrine put it forward and we will answer.

Thank you for the generous offer. I say the same to you with regard to Islam. If you have any questions or objections please feel free to ask.

Peace!

[ISDhillon]

Sorry Ansar Al-adl Ji i am really crap with computers :? i dont know which button is noparse but i know the indent one instead i will try to make it more colourfull,


“Not so. The Mosques are houses reserved for the worship of God.”


But even inside the mosque you face the kaaba which is also reserved entirely for the worship of god, does this mean you can face any mosque in the city when you pray to god?

“Since God has ordained for all human beings to pray in the direction of the Ka'ba, then praying in another direction would be rejecting God's commands.”


Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji disagrees with this command and denies it has come from god.

“If everyone just prays in the direction that they choose then no one will be praying in the same direction anymore, and the whole unity is lost.”



How Is unity lost? Is a ritual imperative to unity or is it that a group of people can be unified by title alone ie, muslimah. Do you really need to pray in one direction for unity? Is familiarity with procedures a unifying principle? If so what of patriotism which has no clear guidelines what binds those people to the union. Is this why nationalism has seeped in and ummah is broken? Because we need more than just ritual to keep us together we need an understanding far deeper, that we are all one in spirit? Just meandering you don’t have to answer these questions.

“Actually it is a simple point of logic. One person says that God wants us to do X and another person says that God has prohibited doing X. Both of them can't be right. Only one of them can be correct.


One person says that there are three Gods. Another person says that there are not three Gods. Both of them cannot be right. One statement is true and the other statement is false. “



Your question is infact logical and you are RIGHT if something which was true was right then 2 things which are opposite cannot be true at the same time, and one of them is false. However if we have an incomprehensible god who is assigned the title TRUTH, then this truth can create sovereign doctrines anywhere on this earth in this sense the doctrines may differ and one will say x is wrong and y is right etc etc, many rights can all exist at the same time as they all do today exist at the same time the problem is about the way we perceive these differing realities. For instance let me try an analogy? There is one summer (god) and this summer expresses (reveals) itself differently in the many continents (religions) but is the time of summer still not the one (the same period) ? Please advice. And you are right if I were to accept the truth to be right then I am illogical but my religion teaches me a separation of truth (sat) and righteousness (sach), the sat gives birth to right and wrong, wrong from the opinion of right and right from the opinion of wrong but both right and wrong have sat (truth) within.



“is suicide right or wrong? Is cannabalism right or wrong? Is necrophilia right or wrong?”




ok, suicide is righteous course of action to the one who commits suicide because I can never be the knower of the true reality of that person when they committed suicide it was a righteous course of action to them because they chose it, my cousin in fact committed suicide a couple of years back and I was very angry but I realised that to me this was wrong because my reality was that I had felt I lost something (love) and gained something (guilt) but my cousin could not know the reality of me, this is why right and wrong are a perception in Sikhism, the same goes for eating meat etc etc the guru rejects these controversies as manmat. As one becomes more closer to the truth within then they help others also achieve that same state because the irony is that the truth is subjective but that state of being is an objective truth in a collection of enlightened beings, because there is only one truth within all, for eg, death is an objective truth, because the truth within will be released in all people no one escapes this. I know this sounds like a puzzle but read it carefully it will make sense but for islam (well the current interpretation) such views are not in consonance with the teachings of allah which I respect and therefore it is wrong, but the problem for me is that the word truth is attached later to this viewpoint and leads people to saying suicide is wrong and that’s the truth, but in a sikh way you should say suicide is against islam therefore it is wrong. I hope you get the difference in paradigm and I don’t sound patronising cos I have been told I start to patronise people when discussing stuff.



“So from a logical perspective either it is blasphemy or it isn't. It can't be both.”




This is right from a logical perspective if reason can be applied as a common frame of reference in Islam.

“The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.”



Ok, can god create a version of himself? Yes he can in Sikhism my soul is the same as gods essence so he has made a version of himself in me, but that was not the contradiction, creation is one form of god, then to say he created himself is acceptable because in the absence of creation god was in an eternal form, so the way I see it, it is the form of god which has changed in this interpretation which I am sure an all-powerful god can easily do, in fact nature is revered highly in Sikhism many shabads deal with the notion that when embrace the earth we inherit the lord etc,.


“How does that impky that we are not supposed to seek out the truth?”


The nature of divine essence in sikhism is known as mulmantar:




Punjabi: ੴ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਅਜੂਨੀ ਸੈਭੰ ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
Transliteration: Ik ōaṅkār sat nām karatā purakh nirabha'u niravair akāl mūrat ajūnī saibhaṁ gur prasād |
English: One God. Truth is his name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Malice. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace ~

Because the truth is god and is revealed by the grace of the true guru which is gurshabad as we meditate and attune our mind to gurshabad the truth within (our own mool) is revealed this is why the truth is not discovered externally through reason and logic. But if you believe it can be then thats cool but we as sikhs dont want to go down that rude cos to us thats wrong.



“So you are saying that human beings don't need reason and logic? We should throw away our intellect and just blindly follow the ways of our ancestors, no matter how misguided?”


reason and logic are good for ratinal inquiry especially in science and medicine and technology but not in matters of faith and certainly not to grasp the nature of god, the mind cannot be used to understand god only god/ gurshabad which is what we try to attune our minds too. Do you understand now why we don’t use logic or reason to falsify religious text?



“The truth is no mystery.”


Yet those who claim to be enlightened are branded mystics!


“Well I'm not sure what kind of approach you want me to take if you say that I am not supposed to use any logic or reasoning!!”




Its cool that you take a logical approach but don’t ever believe that this is the only approach to interfaith discourse in my belief islam came from god but Sikhism is the path most righteous because I define truth differently to you but accept your definition only for scholar purpose, but I don’t hold it to be a universal way or system of comparative religion.

I hope that helps,:)

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hi ISDhillon,

Sorry Ansar Al-adl Ji i am really crap with computers :? i dont know which button is noparse but i know the indent one instead i will try to make it more colourfull,

Just ignore the noparse and indents and all that stuff. Just type the following text that you see:

[quote]the stuff you are quoting goes here[/quote]

Try that.

“Not so. The Mosques are houses reserved for the worship of God.”

But even inside the mosque you face the kaaba which is also reserved entirely for the worship of god, does this mean you can face any mosque in the city when you pray to god?

You are confusing two things here. On one hand we have the concept that 'house of God' refers to those locations reserved for the worship of God. On the other hand there is the fact that God has ordained a specific direction to face in worship so as to unify mankind.

“Since God has ordained for all human beings to pray in the direction of the Ka'ba, then praying in another direction would be rejecting God's commands.”
Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji disagrees with this command and denies it has come from god.

But you didn't ask me about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you asked me if it was okay for a Muslim to pray in another direction. Obviously the Muslim believes in the Qur'an.

“If everyone just prays in the direction that they choose then no one will be praying in the same direction anymore, and the whole unity is lost.”

How Is unity lost? Is a ritual imperative to unity or is it that a group of people can be unified by title alone ie, muslimah. Do you really need to pray in one direction for unity?

You're right that there is unity on several levels, but God has also ordained unity in direction of our worship. Since God has ordained the direction for our worship, human beings don't have the option to come up with whatever direction they please which could be very dangerous and chaotic.

“Actually it is a simple point of logic. One person says that God wants us to do X and another person says that God has prohibited doing X. Both of them can't be right. Only one of them can be correct.

One person says that there are three Gods. Another person says that there are not three Gods. Both of them cannot be right. One statement is true and the other statement is false. “

Your question is infact logical and you are RIGHT if something which was true was right then 2 things which are opposite cannot be true at the same time, and one of them is false. However if we have an incomprehensible god who is assigned the title TRUTH, then this truth can create sovereign doctrines anywhere on this earth in this sense the doctrines may differ and one will say x is wrong and y is right etc etc, many rights can all exist at the same time as they all do today exist at the same time the problem is about the way we perceive these differing realities. For instance let me try an analogy? There is one summer (god) and this summer expresses (reveals) itself differently in the many continents (religions) but is the time of summer still not the one (the same period) ? Please advice.

I'm not sure what you want me to advise because you've first agreed that truth is not self-contradictory and then you've proceeded to deny it again. God does not lie. Yes, God is the truth but He does not tell one group X is evil and another group X is not evil. As for the summer analogy, how does it relate to truth? The sun can be shining in some locations and not others on a geospherical planet, but the truth in singular regardless.

“is suicide right or wrong? Is cannabalism right or wrong? Is necrophilia right or wrong?”

ok, suicide is righteous course of action to the one who commits suicide because I can never be the knower of the true reality of that person when they committed suicide it was a righteous course of action to them because they chose it, my cousin in fact committed suicide a couple of years back and I was very angry but I realised that to me this was wrong because my reality was that I had felt I lost something (love) and gained something (guilt) but my cousin could not know the reality of me, this is why right and wrong are a perception in Sikhism, the same goes for eating meat etc etc the guru rejects these controversies as manmat. As one becomes more closer to the truth within then they help others also achieve that same state because the irony is that the truth is subjective but that state of being is an objective truth in a collection of enlightened beings, because there is only one truth within all, for eg, death is an objective truth, because the truth within will be released in all people no one escapes this. I know this sounds like a puzzle but read it carefully it will make sense but for islam (well the current interpretation) such views are not in consonance with the teachings of allah which I respect and therefore it is wrong, but the problem for me is that the word truth is attached later to this viewpoint and leads people to saying suicide is wrong and that’s the truth, but in a sikh way you should say suicide is against islam therefore it is wrong. I hope you get the difference in paradigm and I don’t sound patronising cos I have been told I start to patronise people when discussing stuff.

A very long winded explanation, yet I'm still no closer to getting answers for my questions. Who decides when something is right and when it is wrong? Please tell me clearly whether the following actions are right or wrong:
-suicide
-abortion
-necrophilia
-incest
-cannabalism

“So from a logical perspective either it is blasphemy or it isn't. It can't be both.”

This is right from a logical perspective if reason can be applied as a common frame of reference in Islam.

I think reason and logic is universal, and not ethnocentric.

“The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.”

Ok, can god create a version of himself? Yes he can in Sikhism my soul is the same as gods essence so he has made a version of himself in me, but that was not the contradiction, creation is one form of god, then to say he created himself is acceptable because in the absence of creation god was in an eternal form, so the way I see it, it is the form of god which has changed in this interpretation which I am sure an all-powerful god can easily do, in fact nature is revered highly in Sikhism many shabads deal with the notion that when embrace the earth we inherit the lord etc,.

So God didn't create Himself.

“How does that impky that we are not supposed to seek out the truth?”

The nature of divine essence in sikhism is known as mulmantar [...]

Because the truth is god and is revealed by the grace of the true guru which is gurshabad as we meditate and attune our mind to gurshabad the truth within (our own mool) is revealed this is why the truth is not discovered externally through reason and logic. But if you believe it can be then thats cool but we as sikhs dont want to go down that rude cos to us thats wrong.

Do you think the truth can contradict logic and reason?

Suppose you find a thief in your house stealing your money. When you confront the thief he claims that a powerful gust of wind sent him flying through your window and the wind was so strong it forced his hands to open and close, grasping your money and shoving it into his pockets. HE claims that his story is the truth. Do you reject his story and say that it is not the truth because it is illogical or do you sit down and meditate and hope some answer will come to you?

“So you are saying that human beings don't need reason and logic? We should throw away our intellect and just blindly follow the ways of our ancestors, no matter how misguided?”

reason and logic are good for ratinal inquiry especially in science and medicine and technology but not in matters of faith and certainly not to grasp the nature of god, the mind cannot be used to understand god only god/ gurshabad which is what we try to attune our minds too. Do you understand now why we don’t use logic or reason to falsify religious text?

No, I'm afraid I don't. Truth should not contradict reason and logic.

“The truth is no mystery.”
Yet those who claim to be enlightened are branded mystics!

Those who? Branded by who?

“Well I'm not sure what kind of approach you want me to take if you say that I am not supposed to use any logic or reasoning!!”

Its cool that you take a logical approach but don’t ever believe that this is the only approach to interfaith discourse in my belief islam came from god but Sikhism is the path most righteous because I define truth differently to you but accept your definition only for scholar purpose, but I don’t hold it to be a universal way or system of comparative religion.

Would you like me to take an illogical approach to dialogue? Would that be better?

Regards

[amardeep]

Salaam aleichum ansaar al adl.

u wrote:

The premise is that God resides within the universe. Yet, creating Himself means that He has created the universe, which implies that God is the universe. So before God 'created Himself' neither He nor the universe existed. But something that is not in existence cannot bring itself into existence. If God doesn't exist, then you can't ay God created Himself because there is no God to do anything, let alone create Himself when He is supposed to be uncreated.

God is everything and everywhere according to sikhism, so when it says he created himself it means that he started to create. but in sikhi we also say that God is withinall, yet above all, which is called pantheism in the west.

let me give you an example.

U put a bottle without the bottle top on, into the ocean. the bottle will not float, but go to the bottom of the ocean, and be filled with water.

now. the ocean is outside the bottle, yet inside it also.

its the same with God. he is within us, yet above us.

someone said that "if God is within a tree, and this tree dies it must mean that God dies".
no this is not right. all of you have the same DNA as your parents, but if u die, does it mean your parents will die to? no it does not.


this is the essence of sikhi. he is within all, yet above all at the same time.


these things do not contradict each other. the verses might, but you have to read its full context and know the basis of sikhism before you can tell whether they contradict eachother or not. and i who knows sikhism, say they dont.


Ma Salaam

[amardeep]

regarding the qibla direction towards Mecca, we as sikhs think that God is being limited, as he can only be worshipped in one direction.

you may say this is what God told u to do, but still it limits the transcandent powers of God saying he knows all.

saying that Allah is closer to one than our veins, and still saying he can only be worshipped in one direction, is not something we as sikhs belive in.

but we respect you for believing in it.

Surat Kafiroun as personlly one of my favorite surats from the Quran.

ma salam

[muslimah19]

hi Isdhillion


Im getting confused between our conversion n the ones between ur n the other members, so i do apologise if i am making you repeat yourself. Im afraid im goin to take it step b step, talkin about one topic and then the next, rather than talking about our faiths as whole.


Let me explain this again we believe that koran is a message about god from an angel called gabrielle we believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is god because it is divine expression it was not delivered via a messenger

My question here is why do you believe in agel gabriel? Is he mentioned in any of your scriptures? If so what is his importace? Why did he reveal the quran? He brought down a message about allah. Gabriel is the creation of god. Why wud he bring down a revelation that would contradict the next revelation? Now i dont know whether you will believe it or not, but just as sikhs believe the SGGS has not been altered since its creation, we muslims also believe rhe quran, has never been altered. Do you accept this belief of ours? In if so, why would an angel bring down a scripture, in which the the auhtorof the book refers to himslef. iT cant be about god if it is written by god. I dont mean literally written. But im sure you get what i am trying to say.

The link you provided about the miracles of readint he quran was interestin, but as scientist have always attacked us muslims with the fact that, meditation does cure some illnesses. And apparently there is logic behind it. Despite the factas muslims we rely on allah to cure our diseases, through dua (supplication), as you believe in tapping into your innerself rite. So from maybe one can conclude that the creator knew the dificulties one would face and gave us a remedy even before we asked for it. And that would be prayer. Either way when your in deep concentrayion, you gain inner peace and tranquitly. Does that make sense. May allah swt forgive of i have said anything wrong. Ameen.

See the diifernce betwene your opinion and mine is that our salat (prayer) is specifically for allah. I would consider a prayer to be a supplication in which i would gain good for myself and those around me, where as the purpose of salah is to praise the creator.

In the same manner you have show proof of miracles occuring through the recitation of the SGGS, i could also give you proof from the quran, which would state matters relating to things which had not even been known to man in that era.

Here i will give you a site, and i ask you to open mindedly read the sources, and ask yourself whether they are authentic or not.

http://miraclesofthequran.net/scientific_index.html


Now some quotes about reincarnation sorry to paste this but it is important that you understand how much we believe in the concept of reincarnation:


Kirat payiaa na metai koyi: Past actions cannot be erased (sggs 154).

Does this mean he cannot repent after. Im sure you said in your previous quotes that is you conscience sys something is good then it is good n if it says it is bad then it is bad. Sex was given as an example. So what would this line mean then? If you have made a mistake you must live with it until the end of your next life? Where is the mercy then.


Poorab janam ko lekh na mitayee janam marai ka kayu dos dhare: The record of one’s past actions cannot be erased; who else is to blame for one’s birth and death (sggs ).

Who rites these records??Where are they kept?? Will you ever ome to know what good you did and wat bad you did?

Nanak kamaanaa sang juliyaa nah jaayi kirat mitaayaa: Nanak, only your actions will go with you; the consequences of your actions cannot be erased (sggs 460).

O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them (sggs 9).

I dont suppose can explain this line to me please. I dont uderstand who the MANY are that are saved? and how

Thanks

[muslimah19]

Hey


Let me explain this again we believe that koran is a message about god from an angel called gabrielle we believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is god because it is divine expression it was not delivered via a messenger

The link you provided about the miracles of readint he quran was interestin,

That was an error, i meant to say the link abour the sggs was interesting. I did not get time to rectify spelling errors

sorry

if there is something you dont understand clearly just ask n i wil explain myself

[amardeep]

Salaam aleichum Muslimah19, and may Allah swt bless you.

even though im not dhillon, i would like to answar your questions also.

u wrote:

My question here is why do you believe in agel gabriel? Is he mentioned in any of your scriptures? If so what is his importace? Why did he reveal the quran? He brought down a message about allah. Gabriel is the creation of god.

as far as i am concerned Gabriel is not mentioned in our scriptures. therefore he has no importance as we do not know of him from our own scriptures.

we muslims also believe rhe quran, has never been altered.

we sikhs do not either claim it to be altered, and if people do, it is their own opinions and not sikhi. but one thing is important to note.

in the writings of our tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaj, we can read this about Muhammad (the I is God talking):

Page 135, Line 13
Then I created Muhammed, who was made the master of Arabia.26
He started a religion and circumcised all the kings.

He caused all to utter his name and did not give True Name of the Lord with firmness to anyone.27.

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

the part of circumcision can mean that he made all the chiefs of the nearby villages of Medina and Mecca muslims. many times in our scriptures circumsicion is mentioned when talking about being/converting/reverting to a muslim.

"everyone" means all the previous prophets that are mentioned in the lines before this, and Brahman means God.


this is one of the only times Muhammad saws is mentioned in our scriptures, so it does not give us any more details on how Muhammad made people uther his name or made his own interests come first.

but if we read into the hadith literature and Quran we will see that this has happend in our point of view.

for instance, Muhammads name is mentioned in your shahada:
"I testify that there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger"

u set up Muhammad with the name of God, hereby almost making him as important as Allah swt himself.
i as a sikh is considered to be a kafir, even though i do belive in Allah.
so how can i be a kafir when i belive in him? i am a kafir because i dont belive in Muhammad as the LAST messenger of God, hereby making him as important in Islam as Allah swt himself.

in the sikh "shahada" called the Mool Mantra, we only mention God.

in other verses of the Quran we can see that Muhammad took his own interests first(this is how we think of the verses)

reading the Quran you will also see that Muhammad places his own interests first, for instance he gets to choose women he want, which is followed by a revelatio from "God" that says that the person married to the woman will have to leave her. (Quran 33:36-40)
we consider these verses NOT to be from God, but to be from Muhammad himself, because these were ONLY mentioned towards Muhammad , and muslims today have no use of these ayats as they were only adressed to Muhammad. there are thousand of ayats which are only towards Muhammad, and most of them are allowing him to do things the arent are allowed to, or which will benefit him (he can marry his adoptive sons wife).. we have no use of these ayat's hence they are no from God.

in other verses we hear about Muhammad being able to keep the women he is already married to(11 i think), while the other men gets a limit of only 4 wives. this is a benefit for him also.

a lot of places in the Quran Muhammad will also get a revalation whenever he needs one. this could imply that Muhammad made up verses, which was not from God as Dasam Granth tells us..
for instance we hear that Uthman, the Third Caliph had a few things to say when it came to the Quran:

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 395:

Narrated 'Umar (bin Al-Khattab):

My Lord agreed with me in three things:

1. I said,"O Allah's Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka'ba)". (2.125)

2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, 'O Allah's Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.' So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.

3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, 'It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.' So this verse (the same as I had said) was revealed." (66.5).



these are just some quotes, which emply that Muhammad did not fullfill the commands of God, and went astray and started his own businnes..

this verse also makes one think of how the request of a veil revalation suddenly appeared as Uthman got more and more desperate...

for us it looks like Muhammad and Uthman made up most of the verses as they were creating a religion themselves.

Book 026, Number 5397:

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil.


if you look into the early revalations of Islam in the Mecca period u will also see that they have a quite clear resemblance to the ones in our Guru Granth Sahab Ji, and Muhammad also did not pray on the mountain when he got ordered to "iqra"...he was meditating the way our Gurus did.


this is the sikh view of Islam.


so in short: Muhammad was a prophet of God, but he went astray and started his own thing.

but even as you follow Islam, you will not be thrown in hell for doing so...


anotheer thing..we sikhs also do pray in our temples which are also ONLY to Allah...we meditate at home when we are alone...so we do both...but the meditation part is what makes sikhism different from other religions (dont even sure i can call Sikhism a religion, its more a way of life)

u further write:
So what would this line mean then? If you have made a mistake you must live with it until the end of your next life? Where is the mercy then

yes exactly. the same way, if u commit theft or murder in this life u will still to to jail even though you may regret it. In Islam you say that God will forgive you for everything, besides Shirk(worshippin others than Allah for sikhs who dont know what this means) but then, we as sikhs dont consider this justice. if a man commits murder, and then regrets it.. does it mean he will have no punishment in the hereafter?

in sikhism we say "you shall sow what you reap".

if Saddam Hussein starts to pray for forgiveness, will he get it, even though he committed murder of more than 1 million people?

Who rites these records??Where are they kept?? Will you ever ome to know what good you did and wat bad you did?
God does. an yes you will hear them in the Dharam Raj- Court of God, after you die.

O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them (sggs 9).

I dont suppose can explain this line to me please. I dont uderstand who the MANY are that are saved? and how

the way i understand it, is that many people have been saved(they will merge with God, or go to a temporary paradise if they are muslims, christians etc) if they have done good deeds. your deeds will take you to Paradise, and your belief will keep you off hell..
being a muslim or sikh, it is not guaranteed that you will enter paradise at some point in the hereafter..

i hope this answered your questions sister, and let me know if you have any.

i hope i did not offend any.

Ma Salaama

-Amardeep

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Ansar Al - adr Ji,:)


“But you didn't ask me about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you asked me if it was okay for a Muslim to pray in another direction. “

this is right and we do not believe that it is in conconance with teachings of Sikhism to have such a religious view this is why our guru rejects it because we get our unity through other means.

“whatever direction they please which could be very dangerous and chaotic.”

I disagree I don’t understand how this would happen.



“I'm not sure what you want me to advise because you've first agreed that truth is not self-contradictory and then you've proceeded to deny it again.”

No I have have highlighted the struggle between your approach at comparative religion from your worldview and my approach my approach disagrees with you approach because to accept reason as a common frame of reference would deny the sovereignity of my faiths doctrine I think I am saying that my religion is above reason. They reason why I then go on to reject this is to show you our way which works also but is referred to by those who use reason as the untenable post-modern but we can live with that our religion comes first.



“God does not lie. Yes, God is the truth but He does not tell one group X is evil and another group X is not evil.”

Firstly this is your opinion and I do not share it nor does my religion, god creates Q.E.D, he can create many “sovereign” (do you understand what I mean by sovereign) doctrines and the fact that they all co-exist at once is proof that he can but this is not a lie or false, just one is not in consonance with the teachings of the other.


“As for the summer analogy, how does it relate to truth? The sun can be shining in some locations and not others on a geospherical planet, but the truth in singular regardless.”

Because god is truth and it is right that the same summer manifests itself differently in all continents. This was an attempt to show you how a constant can be different and variable at the same time. When you say the truth is singular this is your opinion and I do not believe in it regardless either.


“A very long winded explanation, yet I'm still no closer to getting answers for my questions. Who decides when something is right and when it is wrong? Please tell me clearly whether the following actions are right or wrong:
-suicide
-abortion
-necrophilia
-incest
-cannabalism”

please don’t say it is a long winded explanation my explanation was very clear to understand, well I don’t know whether you have deliberately ignored my explanation but I will not give you a clear answer because my religion does not teach us to pass judgement on a reality other than ourselves, this is what the long winded explanation highlighted if you did not understand the explanation then re-read and ask again. What goes against my conscience? I will answer but I will not speak for others:

suicide – depends on my circumstance
Abortion – only if mothers/babies life is in danger
Necrophilia – no, but I cannot speak for others
Incest – I don’t have a problem with others but would never myself, and would advise my children from marrying the offspring of such a relationship
Cannibalism – no but if people eat the body of a dead person then that’s their business it is of no consequence to and would not prevent my spiritual progress
“I think reason and logic is universal, and not ethnocentric.”
What you think is your personal opinion and reason and logic have never been universally applied to matters of faith until the advent of the modern error religion was mostly blind faith, ethnocentric? Where did you get that from it has nothing to do with ethnocentricity I am referring to religious doctrine not western and eastern philosophy. My religion is not western or eastern it is universal for gods creation not just for humankind.
“So God didn't create Himself.”


I never said that are you deliberately reading between the lines?, previously you have already mentioned that god has a singular form we Sikhs do not believe this, you have also stated previously that you believe god is truth, but having accepted reason and logic something right is also true how is it then that 2 things which are true can both be different when my god evidently must only have a singular form? Accepting your own logic you are saying that god is truth and god is also the right in every logical debate that has been proved true this is in itself a contradiction of god having only a singular form. Either god is separate from truth or god is truth which do you believe?


“Do you think the truth can contradict logic and reason? “
I think truth created logic and reason but it transcends this ie, logic and reason cannot be applied to the nature of divine essence but mans conduct in society can be formulated by interpreting sentences for fruitful activities of the seeker.


“Suppose you find a thief in your house stealing your money. When you confront the thief he claims that a powerful gust of wind sent him flying through your window and the wind was so strong it forced his hands to open and close, grasping your money and shoving it into his pockets. HE claims that his story is the truth. Do you reject his story and say that it is not the truth because it is illogical or do you sit down and meditate and hope some answer will come to you?”
the truth within is my conscience and this would tell me that the story is fabricated therefore wrong but not that the story was untrue as god has no opposite, and I would restrain the individual. I don’t know whether your statement about meditation was sarcasm but If it was don’t do it again thanks.

“No, I'm afraid I don't. Truth should not contradict reason and logic.”

Don’t be afraid you are entitled to your opinion which is wrong in my opinion, as the truth creates logic and reason but reason and logic can never assess truth it would be like man using his mind to know god rather than utilising the truth within or gurbani which is absolute truth on earth to reveal the truth within.
“Those who? Branded by who?”

most apologetics and religions including islam which disagree with the concept of self-realisation because they all believe in objective truth so that they can play the game of reason.
“Would you like me to take an illogical approach to dialogue? Would that be better?”

my approach is not illogical nor would I ask you to take an illogical approach I am telling you that my approach is universal which is in keeping with sikh doctrine but if islam believes in using a common frame of reference other than islam itself and also that the purpose of scripture is to reason to objective truth and that the subsequent outcome would verify the reliability of your scripture then that’s ok for you. But in Sikhism my scripture is sung and read for the purpose of awakening my soul because the word has a divine property we do not believe in the use of scripture other than as a touchstone of self-realisation and guidance for the soul not for how to conduct man in society our guru freed our minds from such restrictions. I know I know that was long-winded too but it’s the only way I can explain because the English language is very limited many words don’t even exist for my religion in English.

Kind Regards,:thankyou:


ISDhillon

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji:)

“My question here is why do you believe in agel gabriel? Is he mentioned in any of your scriptures? If so what is his importace? Why did he reveal the quran? He brought down a message about allah. Gabriel is the creation of god. Why wud he bring down a revelation that would contradict the next revelation? Now i dont know whether you will believe it or not, but just as sikhs believe the SGGS has not been altered since its creation, we muslims also believe rhe quran, has never been altered. Do you accept this belief of ours? In if so, why would an angel bring down a scripture, in which the the auhtorof the book refers to himslef. iT cant be about god if it is written by god. I dont mean literally written. But im sure you get what i am trying to say.”

Ok there are many questions here but I think to us it the nature of angels which perceive differently in both our religions, we believe that all angels need the shabad also which is the bani of SGGS we do not believe that angels can bring bani to man as it is only divine expression in the following verse Sri Guru Amardas Ji describes the importance of gurshabad and also mentions how even the angels use the shabad to attain the glory of gods kingdom:


ibnu sbdY jgu duKIAw iPrY mnmuKw no geI Kwie ]
bin sabadhai jag dhukheeaa firai manamukhaa no gee khaae ||
Without the Shabad, the world wanders lost in pain. The self-willed manmukh is consumed.
1 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

sbdy nwmu iDAweIAY sbdy sic smwie ]4]
sabadhae naam dhhiaaeeai sabadhae sach samaae ||4||
Through the Shabad, meditate on the Naam; through the Shabad, you shall merge in Truth. ||4||
1 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mwieAw BUly isD iPrih smwiD n lgY suBwie ]
maaeiaa bhoolae sidhh firehi samaadhh n lagai subhaae ||
The Siddhas wander around, deluded by Maya; they are not absorbed in the Samaadhi of the Lord's Sublime Love.
2 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

qIny loA ivAwpq hY AiDk rhI lptwie ]
theenae loa viaapath hai adhhik rehee lapattaae ||
The three worlds are permeated by Maya; they are totally covered by it.
2 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu gur mukiq n pweIAY nw duibDw mwieAw jwie ]5]
bin gur mukath n paaeeai naa dhubidhhaa maaeiaa jaae ||5||
Without the Guru, liberation is not attained, and the double-mindedness of Maya does not go away. ||5||
3 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mwieAw iks no AwKIAY ikAw mwieAw krm kmwie ]
maaeiaa kis no aakheeai kiaa maaeiaa karam kamaae ||
What is called Maya? What does Maya do?
3 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

duiK suiK eyhu jIau bDu hY haumY krm kmwie ]
dhukh sukh eaehu jeeo badhh hai houmai karam kamaae ||
These beings are bound by pleasure and pain; they do their deeds in egotism.
4 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu sbdY Brmu n cUkeI nw ivchu haumY jwie ]6]
bin sabadhai bharam n chookee naa vichahu houmai jaae ||6||
Without the Shabad, doubt is not dispelled, and egotism is not eliminated from within. ||6||
4 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu pRIqI Bgiq n hoveI ibnu sbdY Qwie n pwie ]
bin preethee bhagath n hovee bin sabadhai thhaae n paae ||
Without love, there is no devotional worship. Without the Shabad, no one finds acceptance.
5 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

sbdy haumY mwrIAY mwieAw kw BRmu jwie ]
sabadhae houmai maareeai maaeiaa kaa bhram jaae ||
Through the Shabad, egotism is conquered and subdued, and the illusion of Maya is dispelled.
6 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

nwmu pdwrQu pweIAY gurmuiK shij suBwie ]7]
naam padhaarathh paaeeai guramukh sehaj subhaae ||7||
The Gurmukh obtains the Treasure of the Naam with intuitive ease. ||7||
6 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

ibnu gur gux n jwpnI ibnu gux Bgiq n hoie ]
bin gur gun n jaapanee bin gun bhagath n hoe ||
Without the Guru, one's virtues do not shine forth; without virtue, there is no devotional worship.
7 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Bgiq vClu hir min visAw shij imilAw pRBu soie ]
bhagath vashhal har man vasiaa sehaj miliaa prabh soe ||
The Lord is the Lover of His devotees; He abides within their minds. They meet that God with intuitive ease.
7 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

nwnk sbdy hir swlwhIAY krim prwpiq hoie ]8]4]21]
naanak sabadhae har saalaaheeai karam paraapath hoe ||8||4||21||
O Nanak, through the Shabad, praise the Lord. By His Grace, He is obtained. ||8||4||21||
8 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

isrIrwgu mhlw 3 ]
sireeraag mehalaa 3 ||
Siree Raag, Third Mehl:
8 NULL NULL

mwieAw mohu myrY pRiB kInw Awpy Brim Bulwey ]
maaeiaa mohu maerai prabh keenaa aapae bharam bhulaaeae ||
Emotional attachment to Maya is created by my God; He Himself misleads us through illusion and doubt.
9 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mnmuiK krm krih nhI bUJih ibrQw jnmu gvwey ]
manamukh karam karehi nehee boojhehi birathhaa janam gavaaeae ||
The self-willed manmukhs perform their actions, but they do not understand; they waste away their lives in vain.
9 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

gurbwxI iesu jg mih cwnxu krim vsY min Awey ]1]
gurabaanee eis jag mehi chaanan karam vasai man aaeae ||1||
Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind. ||1||
10 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

mn ry nwmu jphu suKu hoie ]
man rae naam japahu sukh hoe ||
O mind, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and find peace.
10 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

guru pUrw swlwhIAY shij imlY pRBu soie ]1] rhwau ]
gur pooraa saalaaheeai sehaj milai prabh soe ||1|| rehaao ||
Praising the Perfect Guru, you shall easily meet with that God. ||1||Pause||
11 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Brmu gieAw Bau BwigAw hir crxI icqu lwie ]
bharam gaeiaa bho bhaagiaa har charanee chith laae ||
Doubt departs, and fear runs away, when you focus your consciousness on the Lord's Feet.
11 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

gurmuiK sbdu kmweIAY hir vsY min Awie ]
guramukh sabadh kamaaeeai har vasai man aae ||
The Gurmukh practices the Shabad, and the Lord comes to dwell within the mind.
12 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Gir mhil sic smweIAY jmkwlu n skY Kwie ]2]
ghar mehal sach samaaeeai jamakaal n sakai khaae ||2||
In the mansion of the home within the self, we merge in Truth, and the Messenger of Death cannot devour us. ||2||
12 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

nwmw CIbw kbIru juolwhw pUry gur qy giq pweI ]
naamaa shheebaa kabeer juolaahaa poorae gur thae gath paaee ||
Naam Dayv the printer, and Kabeer the weaver, obtained salvation through the Perfect Guru.
13 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

bRhm ky byqy sbdu pCwxih haumY jwiq gvweI ]
breham kae baethae sabadh pashhaanehi houmai jaath gavaaee ||
Those who know God and recognize His Shabad lose their ego and class consciousness.
13 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

suir nr iqn kI bwxI gwvih koie n mytY BweI ]3]
sur nar thin kee baanee gaavehi koe n maettai bhaaee ||3||
Their Banis are sung by the angelic beings, and no one can erase them, O Siblings of Destiny! ||3||
14 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

dYq puqu krm Drm ikCu sMjm n pVY dUjw Bwau n jwxY ]
dhaith puth karam dhharam kishh sanjam n parrai dhoojaa bhaao n jaanai ||
The demon's son Prahlaad had not read about religious rituals or ceremonies, austerity or self-discipline; he did not know the love of duality.
14 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

siqguru ByitAY inrmlu hoAw Anidnu nwmu vKwxY ]
sathigur bhaettiai niramal hoaa anadhin naam vakhaanai ||
Upon meeting with the True Guru, he became pure; night and day, he chanted the Naam, the Name of the Lord.
15 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

eyko pVY eyko nwau bUJY dUjw Avru n jwxY ]4]
eaeko parrai eaeko naao boojhai dhoojaa avar n jaanai ||4||
He read only of the One and he understood only the One Name; he knew no other at all. ||4||
15 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

Ktu drsn jogI sMinAwsI ibnu gur Brim Bulwey ]
khatt dharasan jogee sanniaasee bin gur bharam bhulaaeae ||
The followers of the six different life-styles and world-views, the Yogis and the Sanyaasees have gone astray in doubt without the Guru.
16 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

siqguru syvih qw giq imiq pwvih hir jIau mMin vswey ]
sathigur saevehi thaa gath mith paavehi har jeeo mann vasaaeae ||
If they serve the True Guru, they find the state of salvation; they enshrine the Dear Lord within their minds.
17 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

scI bwxI isau icqu lwgY Awvxu jwxu rhwey ]5]
sachee baanee sio chith laagai aavan jaan rehaaeae ||5||
They focus their consciousness on the True Bani, and their comings and goings in reincarnation are over. ||5||
17 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

pMifq piV piV vwdu vKwxih ibnu gur Brim Bulwey ]
panddith parr parr vaadh vakhaanehi bin gur bharam bhulaaeae ||
The Pandits, the religious scholars, read and argue and stir up controversies, but without the Guru, they are deluded by doubt.
18 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

lK caurwsIh Pyru pieAw ibnu sbdY mukiq n pwey ]
lakh chouraaseeh faer paeiaa bin sabadhai mukath n paaeae ||
They wander around the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations; without the Shabad, they do not attain liberation.
18 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

jw nwau cyqY qw giq pwey jw siqguru myil imlwey ]6]
jaa naao chaethai thaa gath paaeae jaa sathigur mael milaaeae ||6||
But when they remember the Name, then they attain the state of salvation, when the True Guru unites them in Union. ||6||
19 Sriraag Guru Amar Das

sqsMgiq mih nwmu hir aupjY jw siqguru imlY suBwey ]
sathasangath mehi naam har oupajai jaa sathigur milai subhaaeae ||
In the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, the Name of the Lord wells up, when the True Guru unites us in His Sublime Love.


As a general rule we do not revere the angels the are nothing to us and they all paid homage to our gurus. In fact when sri guru arjan dev ji was executed he halted all the angels from saving his execution and told them that they too needed to learn the will of god. To cut it short we believe semitic faiths are indirect revelations via angels we believe gurshabad is direct revelation from god.

“Either way when your in deep concentrayion, you gain inner peace and tranquitly. Does that make sense. May allah swt forgive of i have said anything wrong. Ameen.”

True, you know when I was younger I always loved listening to the muslim women on the radio who read the prayer I forget what they called it, they are short compositions there is no music and I think in arabic but it was the tones which were heavenly and soothing so I am sure that it does have healing properties but like the old saying goes you cannot sail the ocean with two feet in separate boats that’s why I liked surah kafirun.

“Does this mean he cannot repent after. Im sure you said in your previous quotes that is you conscience sys something is good then it is good n if it says it is bad then it is bad. Sex was given as an example. So what would this line mean then? If you have made a mistake you must live with it until the end of your next life? Where is the mercy then.”

There are many thins that one can do in the full knowledge that they go against your conscience, what the guru is saying is that anything you do will have an effect but naam simran “burns” karma it helps you suffer or enjoy now, this is why when people pray they get emotional because the further you go within the more painful it can get.

“Who rites these records??Where are they kept?? Will you ever ome to know what good you did and wat bad you did?”

dharamraja keeps a record in the chitra and gupta this is very technical stuff and you will get bored if I go into too much detail trust me its just enough to know that bigbrother is watching ooooohhhh!!!!

“I dont suppose can explain this line to me please. I dont uderstand who the MANY are that are saved? and how”

those who achieved salvation and broke free from the wheel of karma by recognising a one-ness in spirit with the lord are radiant in the lords court, the rest keep coming and going in creation until its their time.

Gurfateh:thankyou:

ISDhillon:)

[unbreakable]

:sl: bro

We do like to sing praises of allah, but we also like bringing people to the true path of Allah in our eyes. You obviously dont think this is true so fair enough, but since this is an islamic forum, and we want to spread the teachings of islam to others, and since these other sikh bros came onto this forum, they are bound to be given da'wah

I'm afraid I disagree brother.

If you read the first half-a-dozen posts, people were placing alot of misunderstood third party claims about Sikhism and they were mocking the faith. Is this what Allah teaches you?

What you have to agree with me on is that no Muslim on this site actually knows a single thing about Sikhism. Fact is that they don't really want to and this thread is a waste of time as all we can see is a war of words.

Not much of a comparative section. More like a mocking section "my way is better than yours".

I'll admit I do not know much about Islam, unlike my Muslim brothers and sisters here, at least I don't and am not making any assumptions.

For me, my life, Sikhism is the only way; I pray and thank Waheguru every moment of life that I have been blessed with this way of life.

Before starting to talk about another faith, it’s good to actually do some research about it by talking to the followers of that faith, rather than ask your mate about it. Its really common sense. :giggling:

Let me ask you a question.

What does the Quran say about Sikhs in its 114 odd chapters? Please don’t just copy and paste material, explain what they mean.

I am a Sikh, you are welcome into my home, i.e. being Sri Darbar Sahib, famously known as The Golden Temple, you are welcome to come and pray, many Hindus, Muslims, etc do come to pray.

Can I as a Sikh come to the Kabba? If not, why?

I believe in God, why can I not go into what is known in the Muslim world as "the house of God" and pray as a Sikh? Will Allah not hear my prayer?


Only sensible and mature people need reply.

Unbreakable.

[Mohsin]

Is reincarnation a punishment or a reward?

This is a complex question, so I will answer it without to much details because the reincarnation theory is very difficult to explain fully.

U see, u cant use reincarnation without Karma as they go together hand in hand.

but in short. For some reincarnation is a punishment, and for others it is a reward. That is why some people live a horrible life on earth where they are miserable and bad things constantly happens to them. That’s why people are poor and starving in Africa etc. they are being punished.

is this what Sikhism teaches or your own beliefs? I'm deeply disturbed by this sorry. We believe rather God tests us all in different ways, and he rewards us for remaining true in faith, and all our sufferings will be rewarded for in the hereafter
how is it that a poor african boy who hasd done nothing wrong in this life can be guilty and be punished for something he done in a so called previous life. Does he know about this? Does he know he's done somthing bad before. It's obvious he doesn't, so basically he is suffering but doesn't know why? how can he get out of this cycle?

[Mohsin]

Unbreakable

I'm afraid I disagree brother.

If you read the first half-a-dozen posts, people were placing alot of misunderstood third party claims about Sikhism and they were mocking the faith. Is this what Allah teaches you?

Ok i owe you an apology, i see what you are talking about now.
No it is not what Allah teaches us, there is a verse in the Qur'an which says to argue and debate with wisdom and beautiful preaching. I think the bro that started convo was just asking around for good arguments to use against sikhs, if others knew of anything, and since no sikhs were in the forum at the time, it seemed one way.

What does the Quran say about Sikhs in its 114 odd chapters? Please don’t just copy and paste material, explain what they mean.

We dont believe in Sikhs as a divine religion. As far as i am aware nothing is mentioned in the Qur'an, but in the Hadith of the Prophet SAW, he has said there will arise future false prophets. That is our view of the gurus who claimed to be at one with God

however i can ask you, where Does the SGGS talk about the other semetic Prophets PBUT?

I am a Sikh, you are welcome into my home, i.e. being Sri Darbar Sahib, famously known as The Golden Temple, you are welcome to come and pray, many Hindus, Muslims, etc do come to pray.

You can also come to my house and mosque, islam dosn't forbid this :)

Can I as a Sikh come to the Kabba? If not, why?

Because God has said only people following his true way, the natural way of fitra he prescribed to Abraham AS. It is a pure land saved only for true worship of God, by true worship i mean something god has actually prescribed, not something that has come from man. As muslims we believe Sikh rituals are man made and not from God, so they are false worship, so in a pure land such as Mecca there is only room for true pure worship. Obviously you are going to disagree with my explanation, since you don't believe Sikhism is false worship, but i only gave you the muslim reason, i hope you understand it

[muslimah19]

thanks for your reply amardeep.

Before i go any further id like to take a misconception out of your mind. The muslims on this forum are not by any means being arrogant towards the sikhs. What you have to understand is that we are not scholars. We cannot expalin to you something that which we are not 100% sure about ourself. We cannot give you verses at the top of our head and explain it because in order to understand its origin and meaning one has to in depth study.

If we did this and gave you false info then that would be creating a lie againt allah. These are all things that we will be questioned about on the day of judgement. Making a mistake is one thing but intentionally giving false details is something far off.

The verses that you mentioned where you seem to think that Mohammed (pbuh) made up for his own good are those that had benefit to mankind also. The verse about the veil was directed to Mohammed (pbuh) but he is our prime example. He hold great importance.

listen il get bak to you with more detail

cya

[Mohsin]

This post goes mainly out to Dhillon, but other Sikhs can also answer

You say we don't requite logic when it come to faith, since God is truth etc.

Well you agree to say that Sikhism is the ultimate religion right?

Now what would happen if you weren't born into Sikhism, but instead say you were born a Mormon, and brought up to believe like some mormons believe that blacks are cursed.
Would you continue this worship? even though it defies your logic? Because God would never prescribe for us such a thing, to say blacks are inferior

So what would lead you to Sikhism? Do you guys think, honestly now, that you would become Sikhs had you not be born into that religion? What proofs or miracles does the SGGS provide. See with me i honestly believe insha'allah i'd become a muslim regardless of how i was born, because simple logic would lead me to this, there are so many truths and miracles provided for by islam. But you deny logic, so does that mean you wouldn't become a Sikh? because if you say you would why would you? Either way you'd have to admit logic is in existence for us to see the right religion from the wrong religion

[ISDhillon]

Satrsriakal Moss Ji:brother:


“is this what Sikhism teaches or your own beliefs?”

is it really shocking and disturbing or is this what we are lead to believe? You shouldn’t be disturbed I have already addressed this I have suffered in my life why is it that I do believe I deserved all that happens to me? It depends on your faith if you believe that living by gods will includes suffering and happiness then you are not disturbed by any of this and we believe that god tests us because we all have to deal with anger, fear lust ego and attachment these things lead man astray.

“how is it that a poor african boy who hasd done nothing wrong in this life can be guilty and be punished for something he done in a so called previous life.”

Why do you say punished? You don’t know what he has or hasn’t done in his passed life just cos we believe in karma does not mean we are mean and nasty people we still do charity and accept this law at the same time, to say it is unfair depends upon your perception.


“It's obvious he doesn't, so basically he is suffering but doesn't know why? how can he get out of this cycle?”

he does not have to know because we would all do charity and help the person even if they personally did or did not know the reason why they suffered you say it’s a test I can agree that the test is not to create more bad karma so abide by your suffering don’t steal anymore or you create the seed for your next life.

“however i can ask you, where Does the SGGS talk about the other semetic Prophets PBUT?”

how many times have I supplied you with quotes from sggs about the Koran we don’t care whether you believe Sikhism is divine or not the fact is that day to day we are a living proof that personal views are wrong you can never debate and refute Sikhism because you do not have the knowledge in Koran to debate sikhi but we can debate and refute islam cos our religion teaches it. Many have tried and all have failed. Tomorrow I could tell everyone that god (sggs) says that Koran is an angelic revelation therefore angel Gabrielle should be hauled up in front of a war crimes tribunal for crimes against humanity because the indirect revelation has been the cause of so much atrocities throughout history, would that be acceptable?

“Because God has said only people following his true way, the natural way of fitra he prescribed to Abraham AS.”

God says nothing because your revelation is indirect from an angel, but god on earth in the form of sri guru nanak dev ji told people that kaaba was nothing this is the only direct revelation and therefore will be held in greater esteem that Koran.

“You say we don't requite logic when it come to faith, since God is truth etc.”

no I have said that you cannot use reason and logic to fathom an incomprehensible god ie, contradictions of nirgun and sargun, eternal and created etc. you can interpret verses for fruitful activities of the seeker because we live in a world where we use our minds but practicing our religion is different to the day to day activities a person carries out because our guru says “jeh too prem killan kaa chao sir thal talli galli merai aavau” – if you want to play the game of love then surrender your head to me. Meaning that you must surrender your whole being when focussing on the gurshabad it does not make sense in my religion that I refute the bani as I read it when it is only supposed to appeal to my soul.

“Well you agree to say that Sikhism is the ultimate religion right?”

no I believe that Sikhism is the path most righteous for me and it is the only direct revelation, I cant speak for the whole of mankind because I am my own reality but I know that people from other paths can also achieve the purpose of Sikhism because my religion teaches this. There is never one answer moss you should know that by now.

“Now what would happen if you weren't born into Sikhism, but instead say you were born a Mormon, and brought up to believe like some mormons believe that blacks are cursed.
Would you continue this worship? even though it defies your logic? Because God would never prescribe for us such a thing, to say blacks are inferior”

Experience from outside the brainwashing would allow me to readjust such maladaptive thoughts but I would never use my logic, how could i? how can I possibly find out from the perceived godly revelation whether blacks are really a cursed people other than by sharing the company of blacks, in this sense many muslims who went to university with me have shared the company of homosexuals and likewise also arrived at the point that gays are not evil or bad people. But dhan dhan gursikhi discrimantes against noone and this is why I have no qualm with any other nor do I negate the other I only uproot the other if the other challenges me. Do you get me? Only a direct revelation from god can agree with all times, my guru does not discriminate against any sector in society that is why it is pure truth. Just imagine telling a society which has condemned people to death for the way they are that they are wrong? Are they suddenly gonna believe that they have all stood by and watched innocent people be slaughtered all in vain, that they needlessly lossed their loved ones?, no because ego and fear of reprisals would not allow for such a claim to ever surface and so the butchers continue to rule the roost and incur more and more wrath of god especially through natural disasters.

“But you deny logic, so does that mean you wouldn't become a Sikh? because if you say you would why would you?”

because it is a spiritual aspect which entices me to my religion if logic entices you to islam then your religion is devoid of spiritual enlightenment but my religion is not about appeasing my mind because it fits into a logical framework, my religion is about spiritual enlightenment, I have to say at this point and this will come across very offensively but you have a lot of understanding issues if you have not got by now the paradigm shift between our religions.

“ Either way you'd have to admit logic is in existence for us to see the right religion from the wrong religion”

no not at all, logic and reason are in existence as a form of rational inquiry from which our minds can function in creation, but my soul is not a part of logic and reason ie, it needs more than mental appeasement it needs the truth aka gurshabad.

Let me know If I can help you out,:)

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[amardeep]

Salaam Moss Jee

u wrote:

is this what Sikhism teaches or your own beliefs? I'm deeply disturbed by this sorry. We believe rather God tests us all in different ways, and he rewards us for remaining true in faith, and all our sufferings will be rewarded for in the hereafter
how is it that a poor african boy who hasd done nothing wrong in this life can be guilty and be punished for something he done in a so called previous life. Does he know about this? Does he know he's done somthing bad before. It's obvious he doesn't, so basically he is suffering but doesn't know why? how can he get out of this cycle?

it is the way i have interpret the verses regarding reincarnation and karma.

how is it fair that God tests some people harder than others? how is it fair that people in Africa are starvin to death, while others in the west are living a normal life without any tests. they just live a socaled "smooth life".

what about the babies that die of hunger. how have they been tested? they cant speak, nor do anything, so how is it that they are being testet when they know nothing.

and no, u dont know what u have done, u have to begin from square 1 and start all over again. lets say a man gets reincarnated because he committed a murder, but everything else he did in his life was good.
if this man knows what he has done in a previous life he will propbably only try to stop commiting any more murders as this was his only crime.
but if he does not know what he has done, then he will probably do good in all other essences also..

its the same with school. if u fail a subject of math and have to do that year again, then you have to start from the beginning and do well in ALL subjects, and not only in math because this was the only subject you failed in.

most of sikhism is logic, and its beliefs can always be taken as examples in our everyday life like i just did now.

Ma Salaama

[amardeep]

Salaam Aleichum muslimah19.

im off for work now, so i'l just leave a quick comment.

i did'n mean to offend anyone by saying Muhammad made up verses, i just wanted to show how we as sikhs consider Muhamads "job" as a Prophet.
Guru Nanak said that Muhammad is the Friend of God, which means we have no hatred towards him.

May Allah bless you and all of mankind.

Ma Salaama

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello ISDhillon,

“But you didn't ask me about Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you asked me if it was okay for a Muslim to pray in another direction. “
this is right and we do not believe that it is in conconance with teachings of Sikhism to have such a religious view

Not my concern.

“whatever direction they please which could be very dangerous and chaotic.”
I disagree I don’t understand how this would happen.

Have you seen how Muslims pray? Imagine one person in the congregation praying in the opposite direction. :rollseyes

Even worse would be the apparent shirk. Suppose some people picked the grave of some individual to be the qiblah. It would be to chaotic, so it is best for God to decree a direction.

I think I am saying that my religion is above reason.

Fair enough. I guess it is of no use for me to reason with you then.

“Suppose you find a thief in your house stealing your money. When you confront the thief he claims that a powerful gust of wind sent him flying through your window and the wind was so strong it forced his hands to open and close, grasping your money and shoving it into his pockets. HE claims that his story is the truth. Do you reject his story and say that it is not the truth because it is illogical or do you sit down and meditate and hope some answer will come to you?”
the truth within is my conscience and this would tell me that the story is fabricated therefore wrong

What you are referring to as your 'conscience' is what is typically referred to as logic, rationality, reason, common sense, etc. Here you have rejected his claim that the story is truth only because it is illogical. What you have proven here is that truth cannot contradict logic.

“Would you like me to take an illogical approach to dialogue? Would that be better?”

my approach is not illogical nor would I ask you to take an illogical approach

Something that is not in concordance with logic is deemed illogical.

Regards

[Lion King]

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa - Waheguru ji Ki Fateh, Moss!

[Purity (Khalsa) belongs to God - Victory belongs to God!]

Hello, everyone, am new here. Been reading this thread for a couple of days. Am a Sikh. IS Dhillon has been very inspiring and enlightening even to me, obviously he is a learned person, and so are some of the members here. I admit to not knowing to the depth of Dhillon's wisdom, but I would like to give my viewpoints on whateve rmatter I think I know, and I must admit before hand that I might not have all the answers, but I am sure, IS Dhillon will be able to give better answers than me.

Moss ji,

In one of your previous posts you were asking how would a person know what he did in his last life when he has no memory of it. Well, from what I have read of the New Age books, hypnosis regression helps us to recollect our past, be it a few days, weeks, months or years ago. It even helps us to recollect our childhood moments, when we were below the age of 3 or 2 - to the point that it has gone to the extent of helping patients recollect their past lives - especially events that have been the cause of trauma in this life. This is what new age psychiatrists are doing, and they have been successful to cure certain phobias and mental of their patients.

Now you may ask, does that mean people have to be regressed under hypnotism to retrieve past life memories? Well, I have also read that this is also attainable when a person meditates. In some meditation state, when the mind is in complete control and body feels light as a feather, and conciously when the meditator goes back in time in his mind, it can cross many years n lifespans possible. I have tried to answer how such recolelction can be done.

Is karma to blame for our lack of past-life memories when we cannot even recollect our present life's childhood years?

"So what would lead you to Sikhism?"

If I study Sikhism from the outside, then it would be the love affair between God and the human spirit that will lead me to Sikhism.

"What proofs or miracles does the SGGS provide."

Sikhism does not believe in the show of miracles. Guru Tegh Bahadur was asked to show a miracle to the emperor aurangzeb so that his holiness could be believed upon and his life could be spared, but he never showed any. My Guru believed that even if a highly evolved spirit ws into showing miracles, then that person has not overcome the flaw of pride and vanity. On the other hand, I read in the Bible, when God performed so many miracles (causing a flame to stop the Egyptians from reaching the Jews,dividing the sea so the Jews could cross over into the promised land, etc.) even then, when Moses disappeared for 40 days to receive the 10 commandments, the Jews abandoned their faith in God and began merry-making and also sculptured their own idols to worship. This in a way goes to show that, no matter how many miracles God performed, it will never be enough for people to have full conviction in Him. - or so the Bible says.


Just a thought,
Lion King

[ISDhillon]

[QUOTE


"Fair enough. I guess it is of no use for me to reason with you then."

this is right.


"What you are referring to as your 'conscience' is what is typically referred to as logic, rationality, reason, common sense, etc."


no conscience is sixth sense logical deuction is a form of inquiry i would not inquire of the theifs intention i would know the theif is lying in fact i would not even wait for a story.

"Here you have rejected his claim that the story is truth only because it is illogical. What you have proven here is that truth cannot contradict logic."

i have written above that you do not need to firstly hear the story and yes i have rejected the story as being wrong not untrue, and i have also said that god cannot be reasoned to in the same way as you would falsify the story that is why god is eternal and created because he does not obey these laws we do that is why any reveltation has to be an instrument of spirit and not mind because the purpose of sikhism is enlightenment not good and bad deeds and morality.


"Something that is not in concordance with logic is deemed illogical."

It is wrong from a logical point of view but it is not untrue because truth in my perception has a different definition.
Regards[/QUOTE]


Thanks,:)

ISDhillon

[Mohsin]

Satrsriakal Moss Ji:brother:

Only a direct revelation from god can agree with all times,

Yes, this is Islam, a revelation to Muhammed SAW for all times

I havent quite understood your answer. You said Sikhism is the most righteous. Now if you were born a non-sikh, would you convert to Sikhism, would you be able to tell it is the most righteous, because that would be using logic, and you are against logic right?

[unbreakable]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

I'll attempt to reply to a more than one post in one post

Ok I owe you an apology, I see what you are talking about now.
No it is not what Allah teaches us, there is a verse in the Qur'an which says to argue and debate with wisdom and beautiful preaching. I think the bro that started convo was just asking around for good arguments to use against sikhs, if others knew of anything, and since no sikhs were in the forum at the time, it seemed one way.

Thank you, apology accepted. But at the same time, you cannot be held accountable for your foolish brothers and sisters.

We dont believe in Sikhs as a divine religion. As far as i am aware nothing is mentioned in the Qur'an, but in the Hadith of the Prophet SAW, he has said there will arise future false prophets. That is our view of the gurus who claimed to be at one with God

however i can ask you, where Does the SGGS talk about the other semetic Prophets PBUT?

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Guru Ji as I like to call him, is our spiritual guide, Sat Guru (True Guru), Guru as you know is a sanskrit word which means to lead from the darkness into the light, The light in this case is Waheguru, Allah. Guru ji does talk about alot of Bhagats (Saints) soley for the purpose of showing the world that these people experienced, reached their goal, which is Waheguru.

Everybody is divine. you, me, your parents, my parents. Everybody is part of that ocean known as Waheguru, we are just droplets who are not Jagrat (awake).

Guru Ji does mention Adam, or as we call him Baba Adam, but this is to show the world, that Adam stayed in paradise whilst he was under the will of God, when he went against God, he was as we know kicked out. (It is not said in so many words, but I believe even the verses in the Qu'ran require a explanation).

Guru Ji's message can be summed up as follows, this is what the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji opens with.

"...
ik-oNkaar sat naam kartaa purakh nirbha-o nirvair akaal moorat ajoonee saibhaN gur parsaad.

One Universal Creator God. The Name Is Truth. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying, Beyond Birth, Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace
..."

The remaining "pages" of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a further expansion on these "verses" if you will.

The main emphasis as you can see is on Waheguru, Allah, Rahim, Bhagwan..etc. Whatever you want to call Waheguru. Nobody but God knows Gods name, we all know that. In this Iron Age, Waheguru is the Gurumantra for the Sikhs, but there are many other names which God goes by. I believe that there is a sword in the muslim world which has 100 names of God, but the 1st is blank, which tells you that God is beyond names. I know that according to the qu'ran, Allah gave himself Allah as his name. Correct me if I am wrong.

What about other prophets. Guru Ji, tells his sikhs to live a Truthful life, with Honest hard work and to share what you have with those who are less fortunate and to chant, meditate on Waheguru.

The main emphasis is to better your life..

Guru Ji gives advise and examples to Hindus, Muslims and to many other faiths how they "SHOULD" be living their lives as opposed to how they think they are.

So it is understood that the Guru of the Sikhs is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

We have three other Scriptures aswell, from which my brothers here have have quoted from, in one these scriptures Guru Ji in his Ten form as Maharaj Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji talks about other prophets and how they lost their way and sunk deeper into their own agenda's.

Of course you shall not believe these, that is your right. I understand that.

Brother, no matter what you or your brothers or sisters, or even scholars say, for the Sikhs this is not going to change, the same goes for you aswell.

You can also come to my house and mosque, islam dosn't forbid this

I was talking about the Kabba. But thanks, you can come to my home aswell. We can have a cha-da-cup.

Because God has said only people following his true way, the natural way of fitra he prescribed to Abraham AS. It is a pure land saved only for true worship of God, by true worship i mean something god has actually prescribed, not something that has come from man. As muslims we believe Sikh rituals are man made and not from God, so they are false worship, so in a pure land such as Mecca there is only room for true pure worship. Obviously you are going to disagree with my explanation, since you don't believe Sikhism is false worship, but i only gave you the muslim reason, i hope you understand it

I understand and I respect you for your belief.

The Kabba is only forbidden to non-muslims because during the early stages of Islam, the pagan worshippers or enemies of the prophet used to knock it down. So once it was fortified (if you look at it, it is built as a fortress, as are all historical Gurdwarey), once it was fortified, to stop it being knocked down, the prophet only allowed Muslims, as this would ensure that it shall not be attacked. (I have confirmed this with 5 different practising muslims)

The Golden Temple has been levelled 3 times I believe since it was constructed, each time, by our Muslim brothers. But did Guru Ji forbid all but the Sikhs to come and offer prayer. NO. Thus in my eyes, this is the true house of God. Thats why when going to Darbar Sahin, you walk down, so that it is easy for people to walk (gravity). Thats why Darbar Sahib has four doors, to the north, east, east and south, an invitation to all of humanity to come under the True House of God and offer prayers as brothers and sisters, not as enemies.

The Sikhs believe that only Gods way is True. Sat. Everything else, buildings, everything is temporary, Asat. not True.

Can you give examples of Sikh rituals?

Well you agree to say that Sikhism is the ultimate religion right?

Now what would happen if you weren't born into Sikhism, but instead say you were born a Mormon, and brought up to believe like some mormons believe that blacks are cursed.
Would you continue this worship? even though it defies your logic? Because God would never prescribe for us such a thing, to say blacks are inferior

What if you were born as a Buddhist? I am surprise that you would ask a stupid question, but I'll answer it.

Sikhism is not a religion. It is a way of life. It is Gods way. Everything in Sikhism makes sense. As its only about God and nothing else. When God wants you to walk on his path, he shall send you one of his slaves. i.e. Siri Singh Sahib Yogi Bhajan. i.e. www.Sikhnet.com

So what would lead you to Sikhism? Do you guys think, honestly now, that you would become Sikhs had you not be born into that religion? What proofs or miracles does the SGGS provide. See with me i honestly believe insha'allah i'd become a muslim regardless of how i was born, because simple logic would lead me to this, there are so many truths and miracles provided for by islam. But you deny logic, so does that mean you wouldn't become a Sikh? because if you say you would why would you? Either way you'd have to admit logic is in existence for us to see the right religion from the wrong religion

What would lead a buddhist to Islam?

I am, like I said before, thankful to God that I am blessed with my faith. I believe that eventually I would have ended up being a Sikh, its so damn good. Everything makes sense. Akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal

Miracles? What is it with Muslims and Miracles? Do I need to pull a sheep out of my bag to convince you? (just joking)

Sikhs believe that you should lead by example and not by miracles.

I tell you of this one event in Sikh history and this is documented.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, before being elevated to the position of Guru was known as the "Adi Granth". Guru Nanak, in his fifth form as Guru Arjan Dev Ji had complied it. It was complete.

During Guru Gobind Singhs Ji's time, the Adi Granth was stolen by a corrupt Hindu with the help of the muslim rulers, they posed a challenge to the Guru, stating, "You say that you are ten but one, ten forms but one Jot (soul), then you don't need this, for you can write it again".

Now The Sikhs believe that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is still with us, in the form of the Shabad Guru. The Jot (light/soul) of Guru Nanak Dev Ji went from one sucessor to another (please no stupid questions okay, just sit, read and pay attention).

So he stole the Adi Granth, the scripture of the Sikh. They said if you are all one jot, then you don't need this.

Well Guru Gobind Singh Ji with Bhai Mani Singh, dectated all 1430 pages of the Adi Granth. Word for word, comma for comma..etc..etc.

This has been verified, as the stolen Adi Granth was later recovered and compared by Sikh Scholars, this proving that this is Gods word.

You might call this a miracle, I call this Guru Ji's Hukam.

Of course you shall not believe this. Guess what. Its completely fine with us, we will loose no sleep at all, as you are entitled to follow your faith. We respect that and just as Guru TeghBahadur done, we shall defend your right if the need arses.

Again, people stop copy and pasting verses from Guru Ji and the qu'ran.
Lets just talk.

I believe Moss said, none of us here are Scholars or saints. We all are Sikhs, yes all of us are Sikhs (students) and want to learn about Allah. For nothing exists without Waheguru.

Again, no slandering, mocking, tit for tat rubbish. Lets present out thoughts, if we agree, then great, if we disagree, then hey may Waheguru bless us with more wisedom.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh. :)

I am just touching on the surface here, if I go deeper, I'm afraid that you shall not understand, so if you have any further questions, please email me here bonafidewarrior@gmail.com.

ps. Dhillion, Amardeep, remember Sidh Gohst, when Guru Nanak Dev Ji debated with the bramins. haha. Amazing.

[unbreakable]

Yes, this is Islam, a revelation to Muhammed SAW for all times

I havent quite understood your answer. You said Sikhism is the most righteous. Now if you were born a non-sikh, would you convert to Sikhism, would you be able to tell it is the most righteous, because that would be using logic, and you are against logic right?

Again, the same goes for you. This is a paradox and based on an assumption.;D

[Mohsin]

No like i said earlier, i honestly believe if i saw islam and life in general from a logical perspective, atking into account all the miracles that occur in the Qur'an http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html, i believe i would convert to islam, with God's will
Islam urges us in the Qur'an to apply logic and reasoning, to see the truth
It is evident that this happens anyway, with all the people that are converting to Islam all the time

Sikhism, from what Dillon tells me (plz correct me if i'm wrong, i do get confused by his posts), says Sikhism is above logic, and you are only born into religions, and whichever religion you are born into is right. Therefore i asked if he wasn't born into Sikhism, would he still become a Sikh and apply logic to see the truth? Or would he be happy to live a false way of life even though it is "less righteous"

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Aisha Ji,:)


“is hinduism and sikhism th same or r they jus very similar
thanks”

The fundamental differences: The way I have always understood it is that in sikhism we acknowledge the existence of deities but we do not worship or evoke them. We believe that the gurshabad which is the word of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is what we need to attune our concentration to because the word is god and has never left us. We believe that without the word you cannot acheive salvation because only revealed source can reveal the ultimate reality within, and then comes the next difference that in sikhism we do not believe that the soul become immersed in the lord but that we recognise a one-ness in spirit with the lord ie, we remain a seperate identity in salvation. The other difference is that we strongly believe in temporal authority of khalsa because we do not believe in land boundaries we believe that man is a sovereign being and therefore it comes from you as an individual it does not matter if their is a perceived ruler each man and women is a leader and therefore when people understand this we will have ekta - oneness of humanity. And in reality all religions share similarities we are all sikhs christians hindus and jews etc etc dont get caught in the rut known as identity because it gives birth to ego and jealousy. Sorry if I have offended,

ISDhillon:)


Dear Moss Ji:?


“Now if you were born a non-sikh, would you convert to Sikhism, would you be able to tell it is the most righteous, because that would be using logic, and you are against logic right?”

if I was born a non-sikh I would not be able to convert to Sikhism unless I learned gurmukhi and did path from sri guru granth sahib ji then I would learn that whilst I did not fully understand the words their was something powerful, however if I started learning about another faith I would have to use my logic to first verify scriptural truth and then and only then could one call me a muslim, Christian jew etc, but Sikhism is above all those. Let me also tell you that all I have learned about Sikhism for me did not come from secondary sources I grew to love gurbani so much that sometimes I would lie in bed all night and listen to path and gurbani its like when you first fall in love you remember how powerfully you are drawn in by the word. I do however now read scholarary interpretation of religious text but then I am not practicing my religion I know my religion is the most righteous because I have never doubted it nor does any part of religion go against the norms of this time or my individual conscience I never needed logic to figure that out. There are 2 issues here moss ji firstly god transcends rationality, secondly practicing Sikhism is not a course of study it’s about meditating on the word, finally I have no qualm with scholarary interpretation of all religions in isolation but not as a way of practicing faith. Because I live by conscience I don’t need a book on telling me how I should live my life. I really hope you get it this time. And no I don’t and will never believe your religion is for all time in the wake of sikhi all notions of totalitarian islam are destroyed be humble and accept this otherwise you will not have ekta, even when you go to prayer you will be divided, embrace diversity.


“Sikhism, from what Dillon tells me (plz correct me if i'm wrong, i do get confused by his posts), says Sikhism is above logic, and you are only born into religions, and whichever religion you are born into is right. Therefore i asked if he wasn't born into Sikhism, would he still become a Sikh and apply logic to see the truth? Or would he be happy to live a false way of life even though it is "less righteous"”


I cant believe this you still don’t get it are you doing this on purpose? I have already answered these questions but they keep resurfacing. God is above logic. Sri guru granth sahib ji ia all about god therefore you cannot say that there are contradiction in sri guru granth sahib ji because god transcends rationality, do you get it now? If I was born as a muslim I probably would be arguing for a falsification test because both our doctrines differ, do you get it now?

Here read some more quotes:

"Make thy mind thy Mecca and make thy body thy temple of worship. This soul, the speaker is the Supreme Guru. O Maulvi, then utter thou the call to prayer. The one body mosque has ten doors. Slay thou thy wrath, doubt and malice and consume thine five demons. Thus thou shalt be blest with contentment. The Hindus and the Muslims have the same One Lord. For man, what can the Maulvi do and what can the Sheikh do?" (Bhagat Kabir, Bhairo, pg. 1158)


"The Hindu is blind and the Muslim is one-eyed. The Lord divine is the wiser of the two. The Hindu worships at the temple and the Muslim at the mosque. Namdev serves that Lord, who has neither a temple nor a mosque." (Bhagat Namdev, Gond, pg. 875)


"All the Vedas, the religious books of the Muslims, the Simirtis and Shashtras, by reading these, salvation is not obtained. He who by Guru's instruction utters the one Name; He gathers the pure glory." (Guru Arjan Dev, Suhi, pg. 747)


"One man shaves off and calls himself a sanyasin, another passes for a yogi or a celibate. One calls himself a Hindu, another a Turk, one a Shia, another a Sunni, but know ye, men all over are the same. He alone is the Creator of both Hindus and Muslims, the Compassionate One, the Allah, our great Giver: nay, know not another, for there is not another. So serve they all the One alone: for He the One is the only God of us all: it is His Form, His Light that is diffused in all." (Guru Gobind Singh, Kabitas 71-90, Akal Ustati)


"A Muslim understands the Muslim way of life and a Hindu the Vedas and Puranas. To instruct his mind, man ought to study Divine Knowledge to some extent. I know only the One Lord, who is the source of everything. I believe not in him, whom the Lord writes (creates) and erases (destroys). If someone sees the One Lord, he perishes not by beholding Him." (Bhagat Kabir, Gauri, pg. 340)


"If God abides only in the mosque, then to whom else does the rest of the country belong? According to Hindus the Lord's Name, abides in the idol, but, I see not truth in both. O my Lord God, I live by Thy Name. O my Master, show Thou mercy unto me. The God of Hindus dwells in the southern land and the God of Muslims has His seat in the west. Search thou in thy mind, yea, search thou in the heart of thy mind, for this alone is the only abode and seat of thy God." (Bhagat Kabir, Parbhati, pg. 1349)


"The Muslims praise the Islamic law and they read and reflect upon it. According to them the Lord's servants are only they, who fall in captivity (of orthodoxy of Islamic law) to see His sight. The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy God, when they see in many beauteous form. They bathe at holy places, make flower offerings and spread the perfume of eagle-wood before idols. The yogis that there are meditate on the Absolute Lord and name the Creator as Unseen....Like the above, depart after eating here, what they had. Have they thus done any good deeds?" (Guru Nanak, Slok, pg. 465)


"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. All and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)



Gurfateh!:thankyou:

ISDhillon:)

[amardeep]

i must say that i disagree with dhillon on the subject to whether one should follow the religion you are born into.

the thing about sikhism is, that it will not PUNISH you for belonging to a religion, as it was God that put u into it. this is like saying God will tackle u..he puts u into one religion, and then punishes u for keeping on to that.

In SGGS Maharaj we hear:

Page 477, Line 14
Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell?


as the above verse says, God put you on a fath, therefore noone can say that "Christans shall go to hell because they dont follow Islam" becuase God was the one to put the christian into that religion.

being put into a religion is due to your karma, your actions of your earlyer life. if a person is born with a disease it does not either mean that he will have to have this dissease for the rest of his life because he is allowed to find a cure and get rid of it.
therefore, a muslim can also become a sikh if he wants to.. and a sikh can become a muslim.

moss: our scripture has a lot of science to, and most of the science in the quran has already been debunked. but i dont want to debate this at this thread.

and as dhillon says, why does the same questions keep on coming back again?

our Gurus performed many miracles, but they also said that a miracle is not what should attract people to a religion, as miracles are a cheap way of fooling people(Said by Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee Maharaj) ..

even people today are perfoming miracles.why dont u bow to them then?

[Mohsin]

moss: our scripture has a lot of science to, and most of the science in the quran has already been debunked. but i dont want to debate this at this thread.

Lol and those so called debunks have been debunked by muslims on live tyelevision infront of the whole world. There still remains to this one day not one scientific error, or any other contradiction in the Qur'an.

Anyway, your post has re-raised the issues. I hope Dhillon now understands why it is so hard to understand what he is saying.
Anyway, even though we are born into different religions, as muslims we believe God has given us the intellect and understanding to see the true path, as reverts to islam are doing everyday left right and centre
For example christianity, they believe God has a son, that is blasphemic to God. Therefore there can only be one true way to God, no seconds

[ISDhillon]

Hello there Moss,:heated:


“i must say that i disagree with dhillon on the subject to whether one should follow the religion you are born into.”

Where did I say that?

“Lol and those so called debunks have been debunked by muslims on live tyelevision infront of the whole world.”

Your debunks are poor they have not been done live on tv the live ones which I have seen were a great source of comedy.

“I hope Dhillon now understands why it is so hard to understand what he is saying.”

Amardeep said he disagreed with me he never said what I write is hard to follow but I suppose you have now debunked me in front of the whole world.

“as reverts to islam are doing everyday left right and centre”

I don’t think so.

“For example christianity, they believe God has a son, that is blasphemic to God. Therefore there can only be one true way to God, no seconds”

wow that is a great form of:

“as muslims we believe God has given us the intellect and understanding to see the true path”

and when you do reply answer the questions or at least say that I have answered all your questions instead of being annoyed that you could not debunk me.

I look forward to hearing from ya,:hiding:

ISDHILLON

Ps where has chacha-jalebi gone has he been snorting gulaab-jamans again lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!:giggling:

[muslimah19]

hiya,

anyways like i was saying, The quran is infact revealed by an angel to prophet mohammed pbuh. Now as well as the shahada (declaration of faith), muslims must always sincerely believe in the quran being the word of god, angels, day of judgement, all of allahs messegers (pbut).

The belief in Allah is the most important, but afetr this one must have love for his last messenger (pbuh). Like i said earlier muhammed(pbuh) hold great importance in our life. We can oly follow by his example as he is the one the holy book was revealed to. The angel gabriel would meet him regualrly to reveal verses of the quran. The angels are creation whome have been given no free will. They cannot disobey allah, as their existance is purely to worship and obey his every command. So had The prophet (pbuh) gone astray n not completed the eternal message of the the creator, would not the angel have told him so.


What you have to understand is that muhammed (pbuh) is our pefect role model. You may say why do you need a human to follow wen you can follow the quran, but who can understand its meaning more than himself.

Allah says in the quran:

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)

Ofcourse the messanger can only be referred to as muhammed (pbuh) himself as it was to him the this verse was revealed to.

Take society as an example. We need rules in order for things to run smoothl and for justice to prevail rite. Would you not agree? Within the holy quran are guidlines. Some may start say oh tats extreme, or that oppression or etc etc but then who is the best judge, except the creator himself.

I just have one question. You say god is within us. So could one reach the level that the gurus attained?

[ISDhillon]

Hi Muslimah Ji,


"Take society as an example. We need rules in order for things to run smoothl "

Rules are ok i have a problem with the way they are enforced, i know that if someone was to try and control me i would rebel cos my religion says i am a sovereign being therefore no one knows what best for me other than me, this is why we uprooted the mughals because god did not say that we had to live under such rules, also my religion is against death penalty for whatever reason in fact the guru gave his own life so transgressors could live this is how we learned compassion, during the wars the sikhs fed and dressed the wounds of injured soldiers of the enemy and sent them back to their armies you could kill someone in battle and never for any other reason, anyhow everytime shariah was used on our gurus they were executed and thats why we can never abide by it but i would not have a problem if muslims were allow to willingly submit to punishment my problem is some peoples lives are forcefully taken away and i can never allow that to happen before my eyes wether someone deems it gods decree or not cos my religion came after and god did not say that to us.


"I just have one question. You say god is within us. So could one reach the level that the gurus attained?"

yes but you will never be the guru.

I respect you for your commitment I just find their are some elements which go against my conscience and i have to uphold my conscience the guru calls this bibek buddhi.

Respectfully,:)

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[amardeep]

Salaam aleichum Muslimah19.

u wrote

So had The prophet (pbuh) gone astray n not completed the eternal message of the the creator, would not the angel have told him so.

Muhammad was the only person to see this Angel Gabriel, so who knows, maybe he did hear this but did'n tell anyone?

They cannot disobey allah, as their existance is purely to worship and obey his every command.

did'n the angel iblis disobey Allah swt when he refused to prostate to Adam?

And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad, saaws, gives you, take it and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain from it." (v. 59:7)

this verse is not a general one. you are taking it out of contex. when i read in my quran, i see that "Allah" is talking about warbooty, and that one has to take whatever Muhammad gives you of this booty.

as this is in a sentence in a warbooty contex, it is not a general verse which means that his hadith shall be followed. the verses regarding the prohobition of pork is general. the verses of NOT killing your daughters of poverty are generel...but this one you gave is not.

i think brother dhillon has answered the rest of your question.

and yes. i do respect your views on Muhammad and religion, i just dont agree with them. but i sure do respect it.

Ma Salaama

[amardeep]

Brother Moss wrote:
Lol and those so called debunks have been debunked by muslims on live tyelevision infront of the whole world. There still remains to this one day not one scientific error, or any other contradiction in the Qur'an.

show me a proof that semen comes from between the backbones and the ribs as according to:

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted - Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:" S. 86:5-7

regarding all the "scientefic" miracles talking about big bang, expansion of universe, it is just an interpretation pulled of the words. they dont really talk about it and none of the hadiths about the verses talks about universe expanding, big bang etc etc...

[amardeep]

i've just read the book of harun yaha on the universe section and nothing he says seem to be scientifically correct... but if you can post here 3-5 verses regarding the universe, then i'll read them and see whether they are scientifically correct..

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Amarrdeep Ji,

I want to say how amazed I am at your knowledge of koran I wish I had studies koran before coming on the forum I find myself sidetracking at times maybe I should have prepared myself like you have.

Well done keep it up,

ISDhillon:)

PS: some reading material from a muslim spy the time of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji at visakhi, these accounts cannot be verified as really what took place but what is genuine is the existance of these sources recorded in history.:

Eyewitness Account of Vaisakhi 1699

(From an Urdu Pamphlet)
Bhai Veer Singh mentions Abu-ul-Trafi in his book. He was spying on Guru Gobind Singh for a year and a half. This is how the incident is recorded in this spy's journal:
"On the day Guru Gobind Singh Ji prepared Amrit in Anandpur, the attendance in the Diwan was about 35 to 40 thousands. The Mughals had four thrones (seats of Imperial Power), Delhi, Agra, Lahore and Kalanur, but the grandeur of Guru Ji's throne was in a class by itself. The grandeur of this throne was out of this world.
Guru Ji came to the Diwan and, unsheathing his sword, spoke in his thundering voice that he needed a head. No questions or hesitation at all, Bhai Dya Ram came forward to Guru Ji. Guru Ji right in front of all, cut off his head from the body in one stroke. Every body present was stunned. Then Guru Ji again thundered and demanded one more head. Right on Guru's call, Dharam Chand got up, came to Guru Ji, bowed his head and said here is my offering of my head. Guru Ji, again, in one stroke cut off Dharam Chand's head from his body.
Now there was a big commotion in the Diwan. But Guru Ji in his thundering voice went on demanding heads, one after the other. Himmat Rai, Mohkam Chand and Sahib Ram got up and offered their heads. Guru Ji cut off the heads of these three also.
Many from the congregation went to Guru Ji's mother, and narrated the whole happenings in the Diwan to Mata Ji.
Guru Ji cleaned up the blood from the five bodies and heads, and even washed the floor, Then the Guru of these infidels, stitched one head with other body, one by one. This process took about three hours. Then he covered these dead bodies with white sheets.
The Guru of the infidels then took a cauldron made of stone and put an iron wok without handles on top of it. Poured water into the wok and started preparing the "Amrit" (Aab-e-hyat - Elixir of life). The infidel Guru kept churning the water with his sword and kept on reciting his Kalma (Gurbani). This process went on for 1.5 to 2 hours. During this time, a lady from Guru's house came and put something in that water. Now the Amrit "Elixir" was ready.
From the corpses, he took the covering sheets off. First he sat on the head side of Dya Ram, and poured Amrit "Elixir" in his mouth, then poured some on his head and sprinkled some on his body, and then he asked the dead body to say "Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh." As if on his Guru's Command, Dya Ram got up and repeated in his bold voice,"Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh."
It appeared that in the entire congregation every body was so stunned and as if stopped breathing. There was pin-drop silence. All those present were mesmerized with their Guru's miracle. In the same manner, one after the other, Guru made the other four alive too.
Then, he took all five of them inside a tent. After a while Guru Ji along with the five came out. The Five were now wearing new attire. Those five risen from the dead were standing in a line. Then Guru came in front of them and took the "Bir Asan" (Posture of the brave - kneeling on one knee) and asked for the Amrit "Elixir." At this point, these five asked, what are you offering to get this Amrit "Elixir." Then Guru said that I would sacrifice my parents and my sons for your sake. Then these five gave Amrit "Elixir" to Guru Ji, and his name was changed to "Gobind Singh." The word "Singh" was attached with other five's too - Dya Singh, Dharam Singh, Himmat Singh, Mohkam Singh and Sahib Singh.
Abu-el-Trafi writes that I was very remorseful and cried like a baby. After that, thousands took the Amrit "Elixir". Even, I was attracted by a magnetic force and with utmost regret fell on Guru's feet. I requested Guru to give me Amrit (Aaab-e-hyat) too. Guru Ji already knew about my role as a spy and a traitor, put his hand on my back, gave me Amrit and changed my name to Ajmer Singh. Just with this act, my sins of numerous lives got washed away. I participated in many wars.
On that day, I sent my last report to Emperor Aurang Zeb. In this report I wrote my eyewitness account in details. I also warned Aurang Zeb in the strongest possible words not to dare challenge the incarnation of God, and desist from cruel policies and that if he did not listen to and act on my advise, then God forbid, he would lose all - his throne and family.
Gyani Dalip Singh "Komal" of Dhaunola informed that this book is lying in the archives of Aligarh University."
(Extracted from the unpublished, "History of Ramgarhias") If any body doubts the above eyewitness account of the Visakhi of 1699, Guru Granth Sahib Ji says," Ikna nu Satguru Ki partit na Aaye." (Some who have no faith in their Guru)

[chacha_jalebi]

elooo dhillion, u posted d vaisakhi thin, wots it bout lol 2 long 2 read!!:p

[amardeep]

brother Dhillon, a few years ago i started studying Islam, and i liked what i read and uptill december i thought about converting. i had no knowledge of sikhism, but then my good sikh friend asked to read some texts about sikhism and watch a few movies which almost made me cry :(

so i wanted to read more about sikhism and discovered that this was the ultimate truth from God himself.

so now im trying to become a better sikh each day, and my "background" in Islam has made me "win" a lot of debates on muslims that attack our dharm.

and yes, its a good idea to know about scriptures of other religions, and it will also benefit you alot in discusses with muslims or christians.

Guru Gobind Singh jee himself told os to do that:

31)Doosrae mataa dae pustak, vidyaa parhni. Pur bhrosaa drirh Gurbani, Akal Purakh tae karnaa -
Study the books and knowledge of other faiths. But keep trust in Gurbani and Akal Purukh.


it also made me look at Islam in a complete different view, and know i know for sure that Muhammad was not the "Final" messenger of God, and that Islam was not an universal religion. sikhi is.

[chacha_jalebi]

matey look @ ur statments? Muhammad (saw) is d final messenger. La Ilaha il Allah, ders no ova god part from Allah (swt).

u woz on d verge of convertin & u didnt? c u proved d quran wen it says "and their hearts have been sealed"

and these so called debates you win?? who cares?? debate, twist d stuff round u no inside & we all know dat islam is d truth!! :)

[afriend]

my religion says i am a sovereign being therefore no one knows what best for me other than me

Hello!!

Long time eh?

Hope ur well....

Well, I was just slightly muddled on that...But surely, our parents know what is best for us AT TIMES???

I mean they raised us and all that...

[ISDhillon]

Hello!!

Long time eh?

Hope ur well....

Well, I was just slightly muddled on that...But surely, our parents know what is best for us AT TIMES???

I mean they raised us and all that...

true enough, i meant in terms of my reality for eg if i am feeling something, someone can suggest a course of action for me but ultimately i will choose to opt for it, i would never want a choice made for me by anyone, but yeah when i was little my mummy changed my diapers lol;D

i hope ur well too:)

chachaaa Jeeeeeee!!!!

how is you doin boyakashaaaa! - that was my attempt at being cool but really mate sometimes i cant understand what you have written cool down the chatroom stylee and then we can discuss stuff more properly, the stuff on visakhee is about when the khalsa was created its an eye witness testomony of a muslim that was sent by aurangzeb to spy on the guru but instead he fell in love with the guru and became a sikh and sent a letter back to emporor telling him he wont be comin back lol:okay:

CYA

ISDhilon:)

[unbreakable]

Question.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it?

[starfortress]

salam and greeting to all:sl:

i have few question about sikh, as we know sikh is a monotheistic relegion based on teaching of ten Gurus who lived in punjabi i guess in 1400th-1700th century, so it considered one of the youngest relegions on earth today.So my question

1) if sikh relegion exist in 14th century, what happen to all humankind that lived before that.are they live in false?
2) is it true that sikh religious is formed from a Hinduism's bhakti mystical devotion and Sufi mysticism as an attempt to reform hinduism which endup becoming its own relegion.because your 1st guru has reach sri lanka ,iran ,iraq ,tibet and mecca.
3) is the cycle of death and rebirth(reincarnation)bring any sense or meaning to all universe before sikhsm and what is the main goal of reincarnation.beside making world population growing up.
4) why all the sikh are strictly disallowed to eat meat were slaughtered by muslim way.
5)could somebody describe about meaning and the relevancy of practising of the 5Ks.

just want to know, peace

[Lion King]

Sat Sri Akal, starfortress,

I'll answer whatever questions I know:

[IS Dhillon, if I am wrong in any aspect, do correct me.]

"1) if sikh relegion exist in 14th century, what happen to all humankind that lived before that.are they live in false?"

No, their lives lived are not false. Every religion during its time of conception brings about purity of living. That is, whatever they preached, they tend to practise it. But through time, many religions - which were once a practical way of life - soon become passive theoretical religions. People tend to get stuck in the theory part of the belief system alone. Such was the state of Islam and Hinduism in India then, where each side boasted of their spirituality but did nothing much for humanity other than tyranny and divided caste society and lack of unity.

When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was asked whether Hinduism or Islam was better, he said, "Without good deeds, both will repent."

"Truth is high, but higher still is truthful living." One of the main reasons Sikhism was born: to put to practise strongest faith in God by doing service to society irrespective of their backgrounds; not to make noise about a religion one belongs to but to live up to the ideal of God that He has in mind for human.

"2) is it true that sikh religious is formed from a Hinduism's bhakti mystical devotion and Sufi mysticism as an attempt to reform hinduism which endup becoming its own relegion.because your 1st guru has reach sri lanka ,iran ,iraq ,tibet and mecca."

Though Sikhism is also a mystic religion, it does not believe in the passivity of spirituality. The Bhakti Movement had no impact on society except for their small circle of followers. It was neither an organised movement nor planned. It was just a moment in Indian history when random spirits were creating a renaissance in spirituality, which were in coicidence with the time of the Sikh Gurus, whose approach was systematic, dynamic, practical, and confronted the emperor(s) directly with fearlessness of being prosecuted or wiped out.

3) is the cycle of death and rebirth(reincarnation)bring any sense or meaning to all universe before sikhsm and what is the main goal of reincarnation.beside making world population growing up.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction - this is the rule of reincarnation. Whatever we cause to happen will always have a result. The very fact that the earth is round goes to show that what goes around will come around. With regard to increase in world population, maybe the spirits in animal and plant forms are beginning to take human form. All is the Will of God, as IS Dhillon has said, Sikhism is above logic of reason.

I also heard that even Christianity believed in reincarnation in the 3rd century after which an emperor of Jordan, in order to control the people, made changes in the Bible by bringing in Heaven and Hell, so that the church could control its people through the fear of Hell fire.

4) why all the sikh are strictly disallowed to eat meat were slaughtered by muslim way.

Sikhs do not eat Halal meat because, in the eyes of Sikhs, it's considered torturous to the animal. Instead, Sikhs believe in a clean,single, sudden blow or beheading.

During halal process,the animal is obviously under heavy duress because of fear and trauma,and therefore as a natural reflex,its endocrine glands secrete defensive chemicals into its body system,because it is conscious all the time during halal,which acts like torture.
The resulting meat will naturally be toxic and unsuitable for human consumption and must have a certain physical effect on the 'mentality' of the person consuming it, this is Sikh perspective, and less significantly to Sikhs, also science's perspective.

5)could somebody describe about meaning and the relevancy of practising of the 5Ks.

First and foremost, the sole reason Sikhs maintain the 5 K's is because it is the Gift of Love from our Guru to us. The significance of these, thus becomes irrelevant as nothing in the eyes of a Sikh, surpasses the 'Love' token between him and his beloved Guru, between son & father - and a Sikh with 5 K's will never question or doubt the great wisdom of his Guru who has sacrificed his all for us Sikhs, who are but the dust of his feet.

In Sikhism, the aim of religion is not to create more followers, but to create more leaders. The aim of Sikhism is to make a Muslim, Prophet-like; a Buddhist, Buddha-like; a Christian, Christ-like, and a Sikh, Guru-like. In order to achieve the amalgamation of prophet & people, of teacher & student, of leader & follower, Guru Gobind Singh Ji went down on his knee (on Vaisakhi, 1699) and requested the Five Beloved whom he baptized into the Khalsa, to baptize him too, and accept him into the fold of all equality. In doing so he uplifted the down-trodden spirit of India to make them realise that they are all sovereigns and Heaven is willing to come down on its knee to embrace humankind despite all misconceptions of God and religion. The Guru also did not want to create a gap of practical preacher/religion & passive followers who do not put themselves into the shoes of the prophets, so the Guru made sure that every Sikh should feel what it feels like to be the Guru himself - he thus gifted us his very personality. When a Sikh adopts the 5 K's, he is almost always physically aware of the dynamic personality of his father,Guru Gobind Singh, and his high spirits (chardi kala), so he must conduct himself in the ideal of his father.

The first step into practical religion is the courage to uphold one's conviction and faith. So Guru Gobind Singh Ji made sure that a Sikh will not be able to hide his creed, by gifting the Sikh long, unshorn hair (a Sikh's first & practical step in courage: physically adoption of one's conviction, thus creating harmony of the outside world with inner spirit) By keeping hair, a Sikh practically submits to the Will of God in giving us this human form with beautiful hair. Someone said that long hair is only for women, then I guess God & Evolution are pretty ancient-minded to catch up with human advancements?

The Kara, the steel bangle is the engagement ring between the Guru and his Sikh to remind the Sikh of his commitments to the Guru. The circle also stands for the infinity of God and the metal, the sternness of a soldier on all hardships.

The Kanga, a wooden comb, is to remind a Sikh to maintain cleanliness - which is obviously next to Godliness. We are gifted this body from God, hence we should not abuse it in anyway, since it's the temple that houses are spirit.

The Kachhera, a pair of shorts is to remind the Sikh to be brisk in his action and to remain chaste in his commitment to his spouse (IS Dhillon, please correct me if I am wrong).

The Kirpan, a sword/dagger is to remind the Sikh of his commitment to the dynamic ideals of Guru Gobind Singh in safeguarding one's religion and people - no matter what their creed. To remind the Sikh that it's useless to believe in justice and self-respect if we fail to act in times of need. It is also to remind the Sikh that religion is not mere theory but demands immediate service of one's people. It is also a reminder to the Sikh that he was born from the blood of those who sacrificed their lives for the cause of human freedom and equality. Kirpan means 'hand of mercy', so it is in no way to initiate violence as Guru Gobind Singh has said: "When all efforts to restore peace prove useless, then right it is, to use the sword (violence)."
An old Roman proverb also goes something like: "Arms keep peace."

Lion King.

[amardeep]

i've heard that the reason we dont eat halal, is because your are chanting the name of God while you are killing an animal. killing is impure, blood and fear is in the room, panic scenes occour and while this happends, u say the Lords name..its like praying in the bathroom astagfarallah..

if you kill, be a man and do it in your own name .dont blasfemise Gods name by doing so..

[ISDhillon]

Well Said Lion King Ji,:)

I think you really hit the nail on the head their with the explanation especially the part about 5k's I enjoyed reading that.

Satsriakal Aisha Ji,:)

Yes to some extent religions do teach similarities but we can never be more than one religion at any given time.

Thanks,

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[muslimah19]

Hiya amardeep and ISDHILLION,

first of subhanallah, there ar so many that come into islam but manage o instantaniously leave the fold of islam. This is all the doing of shaitaan. One doubt leads to another and then one makes the biggest mistake of their lives. n every religion there are questions that cannot be answered coz the ultimate answer lies with our creator alone.

For example if sommeone was to ask you how did god come into existance (astagfirullah), i would personally say that he alone has knowledge of all things, and im not sure what ur response would be.

Iblees was not an angel, he was a jinn. They were created before man himelf except they are nt mad of clay, but are made of smokeless fire. He had such obedience for allah, but when told to bow down to adam (pbuh), he thought he was an superior creation to adam (pbuh).

Angels are created for the worship of allah, and also have specific duties which they have been ordered to do.

I dont see how the verse i gave you is out of context. Once you believe the quran is the true message for allah, then why would a true believer objest to abiding by its rules.

Now amardeep i am goin to assume you were seeking the true religion, were you athiest before?? And what made you want to seek a religion? The quran is only in arabic. Im not sure how to explain to you. But the meaning of it lies in the arabic. It was the language that it was revieled in, and will re remain till near the end of time. Now when it is translated in any other language, It isnt going to be word to word? How can it? The arabic language in which allah revealed the quran in is very complex, as is the bible, which over the years has been changed in order to simpify the meaning, but when you read it you are not reading the direct message which was revealed orignally.

Does that make sense?? If not can explain better, sorry if your confused in any way.

To someone who is seeking a religion, ofcourse a religion which allows people to believe in any religion would seem appealing. Why wouldnt it. You have to ask yourself, if one faith is trying to establish an islamic state, n this is stated in the quran, we are obeying our lords command. But to another religion lilke sikhism who is in favour of all religions, then wouldnt god be doin great injustice. See now i can see why one would allah create such confusion? The basis of islam, is to accept god as being one, YES, but believing in the quran. It goes hand in hand, does that make sense.


Its all very well you saying that what if the Angel did tell the prophet(pbuh) not to stray from the message, but shirk in islam is the major sin, So why would allah have allowed this to happen. This initself is a ssin, as you are imlyin the allmighty did not know the intention of this messenger whome he had chosen. How can you say such a lie about your creator? Im not sayin you in particular have done or havnt done, but if we read through the lines this is what one would have implied.

Okay you do not believe in logic. N you do not believe in miracles. Whether you want to call it a miracle or you want to call it proof, either way the signs are there.

Allah knows us better than we know ourselves. He warns us as well as guides us in the quran by saying:

002.208
O ye who believe! Enter into Islam whole-heartedly; and follow not the footsteps of the evil one; for he is to you an avowed enemy.

Shaitaan will try and mislead us. N after centuries of experince you think that he has not figured out that he cannot mislead us by whispering to us that there is multipe lords, The proof us in ouur holy book the quran. BUT he can start by putting doubts into our minds and hearts. N this can be as little as why did the angel not appear to any1 else? Why did he not approach the public? Whome are we to question our lords decision

I pray that we all remain steadfast in the deen of islam. We must make dua for our ummah, and strive to gain knowledge, so thah we can defend our beliefs. May allah guruad us from the accursed shaitaan. Ameen

[muslimah19]

i've heard that the reason we dont eat halal, is because your are chanting the name of God while you are killing an animal. killing is impure, blood and fear is in the room, panic scenes occour and while this happends, u say the Lords name..its like praying in the bathroom astagfarallah..

if you kill, be a man and do it in your own name .dont blasfemise Gods name by doing so..

Amardeep would you not agree that we need the nutritions provided animals? Would we nt become weak and frail? And if Allah has permitted it then how can this be wrong, bacause as you believe as long as you are worshipping your lord, then your are on the rite track are you nt?

2:173. He has forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swine flesh, and that which has been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Surely! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

We praise our lord by performing salah (prayer) and through the rectitation of the quran as well as obryin the commands of allah set in the quran.

I just got one query. I was reading a verse from the sggs in which is said someting along the lines of that if you do not believe in the guru you are somewhat in the wrong. Il try find the verse althouogh im sure if il succeed because i randomly chose any site.
Have u any idea what verse i am referring to.

I dont wish to cause any offence as this will lead to rivalry between all f us, which is not what i itend to do.

[Mohsin]

IS Dhillon, i think you are confused, i wasn't talking about our conversation debunking your statements, i was talking about the alleged scientific errors

moss: our scripture has a lot of science to, and most of the science in the quran has already been debunked. but i dont want to debate this at this thread.

My reply

Lol and those so called debunks have been debunked by muslims on live tyelevision infront of the whole world. There still remains to this one day not one scientific error, or any other contradiction in the Qur'an.

Several of these debates have happened in saudi arabia, and also several in america, the most famous one being by Dr Zakir Naik and Dr William Campbell. Dr Campbell is part of that anti-islamic website where i suppose most people see these alleged contradictions. After the debate the website was too embarressed to post the debate up and acknowledged it was an embarressing defeat. http://www.irf.net/irf/videogallery/index.htm

Amardeep said he disagreed with me he never said what I write is hard to follow but I suppose you have now debunked me in front of the whole world.

What????:?

For example christianity, they believe God has a son, that is blasphemic to God. Therefore there can only be one true way to God, no seconds

Ignore the above comment of mine, it came out all wrong.

“as reverts to islam are doing everyday left right and centre”

I don’t think so.

You can't deny this. http://www.menj.org/fastest/. Go to any mosque and you'll see how many reverts there are

and when you do reply answer the questions or at least say that I have answered all your questions instead of being annoyed that you could not debunk me.

Sorry, i dont think you have debunked my statements, but to you you obviously have since you don't believe in the law of non-contradiction and God is above logic, so i will stop there about that.

But you haven't provided any arguments to me as to why sikhism is superior, or a more righteous religion. Islam to me remains the truth, there are too many miracles to argue with, and you seem to have the same allegations against Islam that have been debunked elsewhere

[ISDhillon]

" the most famous one being by Dr Zakir Naik and Dr William Campbell. "

i actually saw this one the man looked like that norman kember guy and at the end of the debate he makes a rash statement about jesus having more witnesses or something like that. Anyway with respect to this debate do you think this debate was fair? do you think any debate that zakir has is fair? i certainly dont put him on this website or direct me to one of his websites i would like to debate with him.


"After the debate the website was too embarressed to post the debate up and acknowledged it was an embarressing defeat."

actually they did go to the answering islam website i think thats what its called but it doesnt matter because reading their responses they have made similar erors.



"You can't deny this. http://www.menj.org/fastest/. Go to any mosque and you'll see how many reverts there are"

when i look at people who come out of mosques the foreigners are mostly refugees although at uni many people started learning about islam but after three years they were back to partying it was a phase if anything even the kids born into muslim families are muslim by name and kaffir by nature be honest how many true muslims are their? and anyways you all have dozen kids and 3 wives lol:giggling:


"don't believe in the law of non-contradiction and God is above logic, so i will stop there about that."

oh i believe in the law on science not on god god will be the judge of you you can never use your mind to understand god and if scripture is a guide on how to live then good for you but my scripture isnt therefore logic has no purpose, when you a get older you will become wiser and realise all your babbling was in vain, logic is not important in religion. BTW do you actually listen to the argumenets by zakir or just clap because thats what everyone else is doing i find some of his arguments sickening:heated: .


"But you haven't provided any arguments to me as to why sikhism is superior, or a more righteous religion. "

because throughout history we have no bad record and thats the hallmarks of a good religion our religion does not bring us up to hate anyone that should be good enough for you ofcorse youll ask me for proof but then someone will have to invent a time machine.

Kind regards,

ISDhillon

[ISDhillon]

Muslimah ji let me guide you to this quote ::)

"What is important in mystical acts is that something happens. What is important in prophetic acts is that something is said ."

Abraham J. Herschel, "The Prophets"


We value the act more than the saying we need enlightenment not hope, think this is a fundamental difference between our 2 religions. That’s why I like the sufi side of islam:

"unlike nirvana which is merely the cessation of individuality the fana, passing away of the Sufi from his phenomenal existence involves baqa, the continuance of his real existence and personality. He who dies to self lives in God. And fana, the consummation of his death, marks the attainment of baqa, or union with the divine life."

The Mystics of Islam. 1921

I also find it hard to understand the female role of women in islam in comparison to the sikh tradition where all who are baptised are genderless and even warriors on the battlefield, when you here muslim scholars today talk about equality they confuse "same physically" with equality:

The prestigious Bayadavi in his authoritative commentary on the Koran, says that,


"Allah has preferred men to women in the matter of mental ability and their power for performance of duties"


-Anwar - ul - tanzil


Sheikh Mohammad Hussain Makhloof, the Mufti of Egypt, in a fatwa (1952) had declared that,


"There is no authority in Islamic social system for giving the women the right to vote and to be elected to Parliament owing to their inherently unstable nature, on the authority of Islamic law."


Just a thought,

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Soldier2000]

Dhillion

Nothing but cryptic irrational statements emanates from your computer; it’s got so bad that you have finally managed to confuse yourself?

You willingly declare the death of logic, by denying the “Universal law of Non Contradiction” fail to relies, all you’re doing is cutting the very branch you’re sitting on, committing intellectual Hare Kari.

But then again I suppose I cannot be blame you, as it (i.e. coming intellectual suicide) is the only way you can explicate the doctrines of your religion, the only way you can justify to us that contradictions are O.K, the only way you can accept falsehood as the truth!

You refused to acknowledge my advise and stop all verbal and written communications and started participating in debates again -

Congratulations Moss, you have finally manage to ask the question that exposes the hypocrisy of Mr Dhillion-

You asked him what he would do if he was born in another religion- and his answer …

“however if I started learning about another faith I would have to use my logic to first verify scriptural truth”

…reflects the qualities that God has blessed us with i.e. use our intelligence to distinguished truth form falsehood, but also highlights the sheer hypocrisy of Mr Dhillion-

You See Dhillion, I have read through your endeavours on this thread, through out which you have denied logic, or the use of logic to distinguish divine revelations from a fake one- and now informing us all, that you will use your logic-

Post # 56

Dhillion Said

“Divine essence therefore does not have a mind it is not reasonable or rational so therefore applying reason to practicing Sikhism is a misnomer,”

If that’s the philosophy adopted in Sikhism then why would any one want to convert to Sikhism-

The only reason one would choose to convert to Sikhism is if one believed that it was the truth- how the hell can one establish the truth in Sikhism, if Sikhism prevented one from applying reason?


Post # 68

When challenged with the contradictory nature of God in Sikhism our friend Dhillion use the following smokescreen-

"Again you need to make a paradigm shift when studying Sikhism your applying a tool of interpretation which has a premise which contradicts the self-definition of Sikhism".

Now how is this consistent with your statement

“however if I started learning about another faith I would have to use my logic to first verify scriptural truth”

The paradigm shifts that you talk about only leads you to believe in an impossible GOD-

Post # 114

Dhillion Said

"we as humans cannot distinguish between truth and falsehood

truth has no opposite because truth in Sikhism is a concrete entity (spirit) it is not a claim"

Post # 122

“truth does not have an opposite so then how can anyhthing be false”

again this is inconsistent with

“however if I started learning about another faith I would have to use my logic to first verify scriptural truth

Post 116

"Mr Dhillions line of thinking anihilates logic and reason, so he is accepting the counter arguments against him as the truth-"

Dhillion Responded

WELL DONE THATS CALLED POSTMODERNISM AND LOGIC AND REASON HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DOCTRINE BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANYONE IDIOTS IT JUST MAKES THEM AWARE OF THE SIKH POSITION.

Again this exposes your hypocrisy Dhillion

Please Visit Website http://www.geocities.com/islam_sikhism/

A new article has been posted titled “the impossible God”

[Mohsin]

Can you tell me what poor arguments Dr Naik uses

[KAding]

Amardeep would you not agree that we need the nutritions provided animals? Would we nt become weak and frail?

Just as an offtopic remark. No we do not need meat. There are many vegetarians all over the world and they are living long and healthy lives.

Meat is a luxury, not a necessity.

[muslimah19]

"What is important in mystical acts is that something happens. What is important in prophetic acts is that something is said ."

Abraham J. Herschel, "The Prophets"

But what you do not realise is that the prophecies came true. Now you can either find out for yourself by checking out various islamic website, or i can give you one. But im afraid this res[onse will have to be short coz i have to go in a few mins. Let me know.

We value the act more than the saying we need enlightenment not hope,

What act are you referring to? The purpose of life is to become one with god. But u said yourself one cannot attain the spirutuality guru nank reache, but if that is the height of pure belief, and as idividuals cannot obtain taht, then what is our goal then? The acts the our prophet (pbuh) performed were for the sake of the poeple of the time. Ignorance prevailed, and people wanted proof, therefore allah allowed them to witness miracles. That is what made people realise, that he truely was the messenger of allah.

And im not even going to lie and say i know about sufism. My belief are that we have been given the quran as guidance, and the traditions of the prophet (pbuh) to follow. I will never call myself a sufi, sunni, shia etc etc. Is that one believes in the day of judgement and the other doesnt? NO, We are all muslims. So by al means agree with any tradition you feel relates to sikhism, but the bottom line is that they are abiding by Allahs book, The quran.


Now abour the strangth of women and men. Whome do you thikn is stronger? On the battle field Whome do you think will be stronger? Back in the days of the Prophet (pbuh) there were women who also went out on jihad. Not because they felt they had the muscle power to defeat man, but purely to by fighting in the cause of allah, to defend their religion.

So now im going to say to you, if you are a king and are to have a great battle, would you send both your men and women? Who would lookafter the kids? And would you say to to half the men to stay at home and let their women to go out and fight. Would you want to decrease the muscle power, or rather man power?


"Allah has preferred men to women in the matter of mental ability and their power for performance of duties"


Can you plz give me the chapter and verse number of this exact verse.



Sheikh Mohammad Hussain Makhloof, the Mufti of Egypt, in a fatwa (1952) had declared that,


"There is no authority in Islamic social system for giving the women the right to vote and to be elected to Parliament owing to their inherently unstable nature, on the authority of Islamic law."

Just a thought,

What is your point i dont understand?

[amardeep]

muslimah19
Amardeep would you not agree that we need the nutritions provided animals? Would we nt become weak and frail? And if Allah has permitted it then how can this be wrong, bacause as you believe as long as you are worshipping your lord, then your are on the rite track are you nt?


this is not an argument. the human body contains more than 10 kilos of protein so why dont u eat humans for the nutrition? is it allowed to eat monkeys, horses, camels, lions, bears etc in Islam? they contain nutrition to..

I just got one query. I was reading a verse from the sggs in which is said someting along the lines of that if you do not believe in the guru you are somewhat in the wrong. Il try find the verse althouogh im sure if il succeed because i randomly chose any site.
Have u any idea what verse i am referring to.

im not sure...if it says so there is a meaning to it, and the entire context has to be read. but yes let me see the verse and i'll try to search for the meaning of the verse.

Okay you do not believe in logic. N you do not believe in miracles. Whether you want to call it a miracle or you want to call it proof, either way the signs are there.

i do belive in logic. sikhism is all about logic, there is not one single rule or anytihng that has nothing to do with logic. our Guru Nanak said that a rule without logic behind it is just an empty ritual.

and i do belive in miracles also, they happen every day. but a miracle again is not what should attract one to a religion, as miracles are just a cheap way of fooling people.

Iblees was not an angel, he was a jinn. They were created before man himelf except they are nt mad of clay, but are made of smokeless fire. He had such obedience for allah, but when told to bow down to adam (pbuh), he thought he was an superior creation to adam (pbuh).

thanks for clearing that out sister.

Does that make sense?? If not can explain better, sorry if your confused in any way.

yes it does. the Guru Granth Sahab, the ohly scripture of the sikhs, cant be translated into english either as it gives a lot of flaws..

but shirk in islam is the major sin, So why would allah have allowed this to happen. This initself is a ssin, as you are imlyin the allmighty did not know the intention of this messenger whome he had chosen. How can you say such a lie about your creator? Im not sayin you in particular have done or havnt done, but if we read through the lines this is what one would have implied.

i know what u mean sister, and dont worry it does not upset me.
all i can say to that is "Allah Wa Alem". only He knows why he choose those profets. He knew they would go astray, and some of them would be worshipped as Gods after they had died. he knew it all.

i can then ask you.


why would Allah according to Islam send down 124.000 prophets to people who would then abondon them and corrupt the 5 scriptures? He knew the people would disobey the porphets, so why bother to send them down?

and why does the jews and christian today get thrown into hell because they follow a scripture which was corrupted 2000 years ago? why did Allah allow this corruption to find place, and at the same time punish people for following a scripture which they did not corrupt?


moss wrote

But you haven't provided any arguments to me as to why sikhism is superior, or a more righteous religion. Islam to me remains the truth, there are too many miracles to argue with, and you seem to have the same allegations against Islam that have been debunked elsewhere

nowhere in the SGGS is it said that sikhism is superioer, but it is said that this is the way of the lord. not saying that all muslims will go to hell for not followin this. saying "only muslims can enter paradise" is a racistic comment.

i'll read the rest of the posts later as im off to work.


Ma Salaama

[Lion King]

Hi,

Here are soem scientific errors I came across in the Koran:

The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning

It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds. Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!

In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God. The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:

"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:

"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

The same incident—the question of the Jews and Muhammad’s answer are mentioned by most scholars. Refer, for instance, to al-Sahih al-Musnad Min Asbab Nuzul al-Ayat (stories related to the verses of Qur’an, p. 11) and al-Kash-shaf by the Imam al-Kamakhshari (part 2, pp. 518, 519). He reiterates the same story and the same words of Muhammad. Thus, the incident is in vogue among all Muslim scholars, and the story and the dialogue between Muhammad and the Jews is well-known.

so much for now, no offence...

Lion King

[Lion King]

Some more scientific errors with regard to earth:

The Earth

Several thousand years ago, the Holy Bible clearly recorded that the earth is round and that it is hung on nothing.

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth" (Isa. 40:22).

"He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing" (Job 26:7).

Yet, the Qur’an challenges these established scientific facts. In many places, it alludes to the fact that the earth is flat and its mountains are like poles which create a balance so that the Earth does not tilt. Let us consider what the Qur’an says about the Earth:

In chapter 88:17,20, it is recorded,

"Will they not regard the camels how they are created...and the Earth how it is spread?"

In page 509, the Jalalan says,

"In his phrase, ‘how it is spread’, he denotes that the earth is flat. All the scholars of Islamic law agree upon this. It is not round as the physicists claim."

The Qur’anic teaching is obvious from the comment of Jalalan that "the earth is flat and not round as the scientists claim". What made Jalal al-Din say so is that the Qur’an hints in many chapters that the earth is flat(refer to 19:6, 79:30, 18:7, and 21:30). Also the Qur’an indicates that:

"We have placed in the earth firm hills lest it quake so as not to sway and hurt people" (21:31).

Scholars who agree upon the meaning of this verse believe as the Jalalan states (pp. 270-271),

"God has founded firm mountains on earth lest it shake people."

On page 429, al-Baydawi says,

"God has made firm mountains on earth lest it sway people and quake. He also made heaven as a ceiling and kept it from falling down!"

The Zamakhshari agrees with the above authors and reiterates the same words (refer to Zamakhshari part 3, p. 114).

In the Qur’an (chapter 50:7), we find another verse which carries the same meaning,

"And the earth have we spread out, and have flung firm hills therein" (Surah Qaf: 7).

This is accompanied by the same comment by the above Muslim scholars (refer to Jalalan, p. 437; Baydawi, p. 686, Tabari, p. 589, and Zamakhshari, part 4, p. 381). All of them assure us that "if it were not for these unshakable mountains, the earth would slip away."

Zamakhshari, the Baydawi and the Jalalan say: "God has built heaven without pillars but He placed unshakable mountains on Earth lest it tilts with people." Concerning chapter 50:7, the Suyuti says that scholars indicate that "Qaf is a mountain which encompasses the entire earth" (refer to Itqan, part 3, p. 29). Qaf is an Arabic L like K.

No offence,
Lion King

[------]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm................

[Soldier2000]

Lion King

You offending our intellect- you say in post 213 that you have found scientific errors in the Quran then you give us details from the hadith, do you know the difference between them?, first go and learn the basics then may be your offences might carry some intellectual weight-

Secondly most of this alleged contradictions in your post 214 have already been refuted,!

Amardeep your comments in post 212, specially about logic is not consistent with your doctrines- Sirgun/Nargun defies logic- and your colleague ISDHILLION confirms that-

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji,:)

“But what you do not realise is that the prophecies came true”

prophecies are rejected in Sikhism it makes people sit around for a day of jusgement which never comes but if you reel that prophecies are a hallmark of a true faith then so be it, I don’t I need the salvation whilst I am alive.


“But u said yourself one cannot attain the spirutuality guru nank reache”

I never said that we could not achieve the same level of spirituality I said that we can never be the guru cos only god ordained that.

“That is what made people realise, that he truely was the messenger of allah.”

We don’t need miracles because the supernatural is a part of gods creation when you are when with god then you will have all of these miraculous powers it will then dawn on you that miracles are in fact a part of gods creation but if you feel that the miracles are what you need to believe then personally I find that a very shallow form of faith acceptance.

“Whome do you thikn is stronger? On the battle field Whome do you think will be stronger?”

both are stronger and we have proof in our religion how women were valiant soldiers and even generals which headed many battalions we do not believe in this idea of physical strength being a measure of someone’s worth. Let me tell you something about social engineering by religion in India, The response to a lot of the issues you have raised is not about women. When a society changes in this case recognition of female equality, then the old society needs to progress smoothly and adapt to recognise (not accommodate) the change. What I have seen is that men are threatened not by women being equal but because a woman is no longer dependant on a man. This is not a fall in moral standards men have not been able to adapt to the change, this does not mean that men are chauvinistic or anything like that, the change that was required was one of least domination that women can have and cope with more than what they were entitled to and participate in society to their fullest capability.

It is the attitude of men and this attitude is a loving one that seeks to care for women primarily but in extreme cases this care became domination and suppression of women because women started to show earlier on in “unequal societies” that they are achievers independent in their own right. The equality was not born in the west or the east or Sikhism for that matter, equality exists from time zero it’s just the recognition of woman’s ability that became born in west, Sikhism etc. During feudal periods in history womens ability was directed to what they could do best ie, rear children, during battles culture was kicked through the window and women engaged in arm combat - you see its about changing society and adapting but not following a tradition because of a period of time which reflected a certain status of women.

The problem with isalm and Sikhism is a moral issue, In India there used to be a religion which existed prior to Sikhism, in this religion there was a core concept of societal moral law, this law seeked to make man responsible for the immoral acts they committed and justice was therefore seen as assuring salvation for the immoral individual so they would not have to face the wrath of god, society also had to purge its lands of immorality in order to not incur the wrath of god. In Sikhism this concept is incompatible, when the purpose of man is to achieve salvation when alive a man or a women has to live a life in balance so they can focus upon that ideal, morality is therefore an individual effort it is not a societal responsibility, there is no wrath from god there is just rebirth for all and that includes the one with the most highest moral values as well as the greatest sinner on earth. However after sometime the concept of man being a measure of his/her own morality slowly faded and the idea of moral law became an unseen cultural endeavour and there was a notion of guilt and shame that was born through such a culture. Today it is not as bad instead another religion which existed the time of Sikhism had a hierarchical structure in society and the whole of society was assimilated into its own pigeonholes and given definition by those higher up in the rungs this lead to the birth of division in Sikh society and formation of differing groups rather than sovereign individual members in the religion.

“What is your point i dont understand?”

I don’t believe women and men have to adopt assigned roles by religion or culture if a women wants to fight a war she may have passion to kill many who am I to say no to her she may be a finer soldier than 100 men together.

Well well well soldier 2000 ji,:)

Let shame you publicly:

“Nothing but cryptic irrational statements emanates from your computer; it’s got so bad that you have finally managed to confuse yourself?”

watch this space boy!!!!

“however if I started learning about another faith I would have to use my logic to first verify scriptural truth”

mwah mwah oops moss actually asked me if I was born in another religion such as islam for instance I would be operation in the paradigm of reason because supposedly you all believe god is logical etc etc so I am being honest here you have just taken advantage of my honesty, let me now go further I was actually born in Sikhism and I realised that god is not consistent with logic but his creation is ( however I still don’t believe in a logical universe I have actually proven that to you with the theory of indeterminacy in an earlier post), but Im not bitter!!! This btw also revokes your challenge to post 68, and its an incomprehensible god whish is impossible for you as a human being to be unless you achieve salvation. As I read more it also revokes your challenge to 122, I really hope you get this time I know it must be hard for you to think outside the box but do so otherwise I will have to shame you again.

“but also highlights the sheer hypocrisy of Mr Dhillion-“

yeah you go with that your on to a good thing their

“The only reason one would choose to convert to Sikhism is if one believed that it was the truth- how the hell can one establish the truth in Sikhism, if Sikhism prevented one from applying reason?”

because truth is god and god is within you know that you have the truth when you read bani because it enlightens you the nature of gos is unreasonale and that is the truth, how do I know that Sikhism is the most righteous path? When I practice Sikhism my answers end and I have no doubt I did all of this without ever refuting gurbani this is the power of gurshabad you wouldn’t know because your religion requires you to appease your mind by making the truth logical and miracles and prophecies but that is not a religion just mental appeasement or manmat.



Ahh so your from the islam-sikhism site – YOUR BIG FLAW GOD IS INCOMPREHENSIBLE YES WELL DONE, SIKHISM IS NOT GOD YOU DRAW THE CONCLUSION THAT AN INCOMPREHENSIBLE GOD AMOUNTS TO AN ILLOGICAL RELIGION THIS IS IN ITSELF ILLOGICAL WRITE AS MANY ESSAYS AS YOU WANT ABOUT THE CONTRADICTION OF DIVINE ESSENCE BUT YOU WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF NO ONE ON THIS EARTH HAS EVERY BEEN ABLE TO PROOVE THE EXISTENCE OF GOD LET ALONE GODS NATURE YOU FOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!:grumbling


“Amardeep your comments in post 212, specially about logic is not consistent with your doctrines- Sirgun/Nargun defies logic- and your colleague ISDHILLION confirms that-“

how? God transcends rationality so how do you conclude that Sikhism is an illogical religion?, separate the nature of god from his creation and you will be a lot wiser!!! I bet you thought you found a refutation there didn’t you, the nature of god is not logical logic is a system of inguiry how can you apply it to the nature of god? I can understand why your so bitter now care to put my rebuttals on your site instead of debating with me offline or are you scared.:rant:


Like I said before back to the madraasaaa with you matey!!!

Gurfateh and I hope you come back and apologise for all your manmat,

ISDhillon;D

[Soldier2000]

Ahh so your from the islam-sikhism site

No dhillion!

I am not from the website, i am just a vistor of that site-

learnt many things from their!

because truth is god and god is within you know that you have the truth when you read bani because it enlightens you the nature of gos is unreasonale and that is the truth, how do I know that Sikhism is the most righteous path? When I practice Sikhism my answers end and I have no doubt I did all of this without ever refuting gurbani this is the power of gurshabad you wouldn’t know because your religion requires you to appease your mind by making the truth logical and miracles and prophecies but that is not a religion just mental appeasement or manmat.

and round in circles we go!

[ISDhillon]

No dhillion!

I am not from the website, i am just a vistor of that site-

learnt many things from their!



and round in circles we go!

great intellectual debate from deserter 2000:happy:

how are we going round in circles the defintion of truth in sikhism does not have a logical nature, a moral nature or any character it was assigned in sikhism only to god, you give god a logical character which is why we go round in circles and i dont trust you that your not from that site.

[amardeep]

salaam muslimah19

I dont see how the verse i gave you is out of context. Once you believe the quran is the true message for allah, then why would a true believer objest to abiding by its rules.

yes, but u take the verse as a general one which means that everything he says shall be obeyed. the verse talks about booty of war, and it is said that whatever he gives to you, you shall take and whatever he says not to, u cant have.

Does that make sense?? If not can explain better, sorry if your confused in any way.

yes it makes sence. no scripture of the world can be translated into another language unless it looses its depth, beauty and meaning.

To someone who is seeking a religion, ofcourse a religion which allows people to believe in any religion would seem appealing. Why wouldnt it. You have to ask yourself, if one faith is trying to establish an islamic state, n this is stated in the quran, we are obeying our lords command. But to another religion lilke sikhism who is in favour of all religions, then wouldnt god be doin great injustice. See now i can see why one would allah create such confusion? The basis of islam, is to accept god as being one, YES, but believing in the quran. It goes hand in hand, does that make sense.

no not exactly.what do u mean sister?

So why would allah have allowed this to happen. This initself is a ssin, as you are imlyin the allmighty did not know the intention of this messenger whome he had chosen. How can you say such a lie about your creator? Im not sayin you in particular have done or havnt done, but if we read through the lines this is what one would have implied.

Allah Wa Alem. Yes God must have known that these prophets would go astray and create their own thing, as he knows everything.
i have another question for you:

how cruel is God, if he punished people for following a corrupted scripture(bible) WHICH HE HIMSELF allowed to be corrupted? How cruel is God when he punishes people from following the religion they were born into, beliviing that this is right, even though people 2000 years ago corrupted it?

this is a cruel God. first he lets the scriptures be corrupted, and then he punishes the christians and jews with hell for following something they did not even corrupt themselves.

Okay you do not believe in logic. N you do not believe in miracles. Whether you want to call it a miracle or you want to call it proof, either way the signs are there.

we do belive in logic. sikhism as absolutely nothing but logic. every rule has logic behind it. and yes i do belive in miracles, they happen everyday.
our Gurus created lots of miracles, BUT they also said that it is not because of their miracles that we should follow the path of God. because miracles are just a cheap way of fooling people

[amardeep]

salaam agian muslimah19:

u wrote:

Amardeep would you not agree that we need the nutritions provided animals? Would we nt become weak and frail? And if Allah has permitted it then how can this be wrong, bacause as you believe as long as you are worshipping your lord, then your are on the rite track are you nt?

the human body contains more than 30 kiloes of protein. why dont u eat that then? its good nutretion. why dont u eat monkeys, tigers, camels, horses etc? they give nutretion too..

I just got one query. I was reading a verse from the sggs in which is said someting along the lines of that if you do not believe in the guru you are somewhat in the wrong. Il try find the verse althouogh im sure if il succeed because i randomly chose any site.
Have u any idea what verse i am referring to.

no sister i dont know this verse, but if you can find it and post it, then i will do some research aboit it and tell you what it means..

Ma Salama

[amardeep]

sorry i posted the same post twice as i thougth that my first did'n get posted.

soldier2000 wrote:

Amardeep your comments in post 212, specially about logic is not consistent with your doctrines- Sirgun/Nargun defies logic- and your colleague ISDHILLION confirms that-

to be honest, then i dont know what sirgun/nirgun is about, so i'll go read about it and then i'll inshallah get back to you..

Ma Saalama

[ISDhillon]

"to be honest, then i dont know what sirgun/nirgun is about, so i'll go read about it and then i'll inshallah get back to you.."

i can tell you, god is with attributes and god is without attributes, this is a contradiction about the nature of divine essence, but soldier 2000 then says the whole of sikhism is a contradiction because god is not logical?

if they had found something contradictory other than the nature of an incomprehensible god i would have debated and argued with them logically but after 15 pages they still dont seem to get it so for the 100th time:

a) god in sikhism is incomprehesible and transcends rationale, this does not means sikhism is illogical as a religion, nor does it mean that sri guru granth sahib ji is an illogical scripture it logically concludes without any hesitation that god has a nature which we as humans can never understand.

b) when you are baptised in sikhism you surrender your head to the guru and you concentrate your mind on the gurshabad, you do not formulate rules on how to govern society, you do not formulate punishments you do not use the scripture to judge others, you meditate on the word this is practicing sikhism. you do not refute the bani.

c) if you are a sikh or non-sikh who wishes to carry out an interpretation of religious texts then you will come to the conclusion that the god of sikhism is beyond the laws of logic but hopefully if you are a good intellectually proficient scholar you will not brand the whole religion as illogical and untrue because this has no reasonable basis and is therefore a fallacy in itself.

d) if i was seeker of the truth i would learn that in sikhism the truth has no character the truth is a property of the divine, i would learn that in sikhism right and wrong are a part of mans bibek buddhi ie, living by your conscience, and the more spiritually enlightened you are the more awake you are to all that is wrong and right, this is why debate on contraversial issues is an oxymoron it does not make any difference whther someone eats meat or not, it does not matter if someone is immoral or not because unless you acheive salvation or fana you are gonna come back onto this world again and again. i then would say hey sikhism is not like any other religion its doctrine is sovereign and this is a religion i would like to be apart of, i most definately would use logic for otherwise how would i make logical grammatical sequences when writing this post but now what does this have to do with my religion?.

ISDhillon:phew

[Mohsin]

"to be honest, then i dont know what sirgun/nirgun is about, so i'll go read about it and then i'll inshallah get back to you.."

i can tell you, god is with attributes and god is without attributes, this is a contradiction about the nature of divine essence, but soldier 2000 then says the whole of sikhism is a contradiction because god is not logical?

if they had found something contradictory other than the nature of an incomprehensible god i would have debated and argued with them logically but after 15 pages they still dont seem to get it so for the 100th time:

a) god in sikhism is incomprehesible and transcends rationale, this does not means sikhism is illogical as a religion, nor does it mean that sri guru granth sahib ji is an illogical scripture it logically concludes without any hesitation that god has a nature which we as humans can never understand.

b) when you are baptised in sikhism you surrender your head to the guru and you concentrate your mind on the gurshabad, you do not formulate rules on how to govern society, you do not formulate punishments you do not use the scripture to judge others, you meditate on the word this is practicing sikhism. you do not refute the bani.

c) if you are a sikh or non-sikh who wishes to carry out an interpretation of religious texts then you will come to the conclusion that the god of sikhism is beyond the laws of logic but hopefully if you are a good intellectually proficient scholar you will not brand the whole religion as illogical and untrue because this has no reasonable basis and is therefore a fallacy in itself.

d) if i was seeker of the truth i would learn that in sikhism the truth has no character the truth is a property of the divine, i would learn that in sikhism right and wrong are a part of mans bibek buddhi ie, living by your conscience, and the more spiritually enlightened you are the more awake you are to all that is wrong and right, this is why debate on contraversial issues is an oxymoron it does not make any difference whther someone eats meat or not, it does not matter if someone is immoral or not because unless you acheive salvation or fana you are gonna come back onto this world again and again. i then would say hey sikhism is not like any other religion its doctrine is sovereign and this is a religion i would like to be apart of, i most definately would use logic for otherwise how would i make logical grammatical sequences when writing this post but now what does this have to do with my religion?.

ISDhillon:phew

finally i understand, i wish you were as straight forward as this from the beginning

[ISDhillon]

finally i understand, i wish you were as straight forward as this from the beginning

well i kept trying and after a little while you start to doubt yourself and try rewriting stuff in a different way and when that happens you lose the plot yourself:?

[muslimah19]

Hey all

Man have i got to write an essay ere, but as i awlays say il take it step by step:)

Its at this point in time i seriously wish i knew the meaning of the quran of by heart. To me when i read explanations, the make total sense to me, but having to explain to an audience is pretty hard seeing as iv never been much of an academic:hiding: . ISDHILLION you have this tendancy to use lengthly words, which i would never use, are you purposely makin me go all dizzy LOL

Iv noticed tension building up ere between you lot, but seriously do not start insulting eachother whther it be directly or indirectly!

Dhillion, as for the prophecies, what do you except from a human? Fine you talk about spirituality, but this introduced in the 15 century. Now i want you to think outside the box. Im accepting the fact you do not believe in logic, so i dont know if il get an answer out of you.

The creator has always sent the message that there is one god okay fine we agree with something. But why then are the revelations revealed before the quran, similar to the quran? Il use bible as an example. Now you gave an example of why one should wait for the day of judgement. The bible warn us about the day of judgment. It provides signs of when the day of judgemnt is near. It talks about heaven and hell and its description as does the quran. Now if you notice each book also talks about the book that was sent before it. Was this coincidental? Or will you say this relates to logic which you do not believe.

Now one of you asked where in the quran does it mention sikhs. Sikhism is amongst the many new religions that came after islam, Allah will not judge you any less or more if you were sikh, chriatian, hindu, budhist......you will classified as either muslim, or kaafir.

So your saying that if one requires a miracle to believe in god then thats a shallaw form of acceptance of the faith. Well that certainly is ones own opinion, but we are not talkin about the 21st century are we, this was back over 1400 years ago. Now i read guru nank went to makah, n when his feet were forced on either side, the kabah moved in that direction (astagfirullah). Do you believe in this? In if so how shallow can you get. To think god will allow this to happen. I know the response im going to get from you. And i understand what your thinking and why you think it, But the fact of the matter is that whether you accept it or not, that will be regarded as a miracle. So now am going to say to you that in roder to save Moses and his tribe, Allah allowed the river to split in two. If you have not heard this story just let me know and il tell you. Even today people will approach you and say prove the existance of god. How was he born etc etc. What are you going to say to him. If you do not have proof then how will they believe, Yes i know only by the grace of allah, but i know what you are going to say. That when the find the divine inspiration they will find their way. Keep in mind i told you to think outside the box.

The miracle that occured in them today will not occur in this day and age, execot for the major signs of the day of judgement. By reading the sggs sikhs get a sense of inner peace because you gradually become one with god.
But by reading the quran not only do you gain inner peace, but you realise the purpose of life, history is before your very eyes, and you know what is to come in the future.

okay i have to go
sorry iv had to cut this short

plz dont take anything i have written offensively, as i realise both parties are devoted to defending their faith

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji:sister:


“what do you except from a human?”

I am a human a prophecy is not a pre-requisite for my love and belief in guruji.

“Im accepting the fact you do not believe in logic, so i dont know if il get an answer out of you.”

With respect you have not read the last couple of posts even though they were not directed to you I suggest you read them

“The creator has always sent the message that there is one god okay fine we agree with something.”

In semitic faiths yes, in eastern faiths such as Hinduism the lord revealed spirituality by drawing man inwards through yoga and meditative practices but the firmness of naam was not given its due until Sikhism.

“But why then are the revelations revealed before the quran, similar to the quran?”

these are all semitic faiths and they all stem from the house of adam, however these revelations are brought through messengers which were not in the state my guru was, my guru was always one with god and so he revealed as god expressed. Again if you look at a couple of pages back I also showed moss how our religion does talk about the passed but this was not allowed in the sri guru granth sahib ji because it is irrelevant to self-realisation look at post 103 I have already answered this:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...sikhism-7.html



“Was this coincidental?”

I have said before that I believe that these have been revealed but I do not believe that these revelation teach man about his purpose I don’t care about moses or jesus or anyone else my guru says this is all irrelevant that’s why our guru/prophet never left he’s here today we didn’t get left with a book the word stayed with always. The day of judgement in Sikhism is at the point of death but we are not judged we are summated if that makes sense.


“you will classified as either muslim, or kaafir.”

In your religion yes but not in mine, you and I will not be classified just reborn.

When Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to mecca he was teaching the hajis a lesson now in your perspective you will see this as a miracle and therefore wowweee, however I see this as a learning exercise that when I meditate on the lord I can do it anywhere its not important the direction etc, never will I say that I want to be a sikh cos there are miracles, I am a sikh because of the power of gurshabad, you may call this power a miracle I don’t I see it as a miracle because I accept the word of the guru is god then god is all powerfull and that’s why gurshabad is powerfull. Now if some people convert etc cos of miracles that’s cool perhaps I say that is only shallow because of my own perspective but its cool however I need more than this.


“Even today people will approach you and say prove the existance of god. How was he born etc etc. What are you going to say to him. If you do not have proof then how will they believe”

you ask these questions cos you see religion as a missionary cause no one has ever questioned me about my religion and where they have for eg, this site, I believe I have stood my ground without providing proof, you know why this is the way I see it lets say 2 people are playing ping-pong you hit the ball to me and I hit it back to you, the same way when someone attacks my religion I send back a response and if my response was right then their questions should stop, what I don’t want to do is cause doubt in peoples minds I went you all to be happy and content IN YOUR OWN PLACE AND SPACE. Cos If I don’t infringe on others I will not allow others to infringe on me. Do you get me? My religion is not about gaining converts its all cool.


“The miracle that occured in them today will not occur in this day and age, execot for the major signs of the day of judgement.”

This is not true all I will say is I have seen stuff with my own eyes and it can happen the guru teaches us that there is nothing outside our own capability when you become one with god you have the power also but that doesn’t mean you should use it to show off, but like I said I have seen stuff with my own 2 eyes but that is all I will say.

“But by reading the quran not only do you gain inner peace, but you realise the purpose of life, history is before your very eyes, and you know what is to come in the future.”

When self-realisation is the purpose of life then as far I can care the whole world may burn around me what do I care? What will I do with these signs? They will not aide me on spiritual progress which is the fulfilment of human birth.

No offence,:)

Indy:thankyou:


BTW if anyone knows how to contact Dr Zakir Naik can you tell him that this:


It is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, volume 1 Japuji, the first verse:

"There exists but one God, who is called The True, The Creator, Free from fear and hate, Immortal, Not begotten, Self-Existent, Great and Compassionate."


from :http://saif_w.tripod.com/interfaith/.../insikhism.htm


is an incorrect translation and quite sly also the last part does not translate great and compassionate it actually translates:

revealed by the grace of the true guru - guruprasad

So sneekily Dr Zakir Naik does not want to acknowledge that god in sikhism is only revealed by the guru hmmmmmmm the plot thickens.:skeleton:

[amardeep]

Salaam Aleichum Muslimah 19.

The bible warn us about the day of judgment. It provides signs of when the day of judgemnt is near. It talks about heaven and hell and its description as does the quran. Now if you notice each book also talks about the book that was sent before it. Was this coincidental? Or will you say this relates to logic which you do not believe.

the three books of Torah(Old Testemony) Bible(new Testemony) and Quran have a lot of resemblence, but they do contradict eachother.

u mentioned heaven and hell.

Hell is not mentioned in Torah as they do not believe in it.

Hell is mentioned in Bible but it only means a place where Jesus is not. hell is a eternal life WITHOUT the love of Jesus.

Hell in Islam is a cruel place where people will be burned for eternity etc.

so u see. these three things contradict eachother. the first scripture does not mention hell, and the two other have a complete different ideology of what hell means.

even the part about judgement day are different. Torah does not mention it, but the bible and quran does.
here are two different versions of how it will take place..
in the bible it is written that the christians will be murdered and they will have to fight back.
in Islam it says that muslims shall kill christians.

these two scripts contradict eachother....when the bible is talking about the "beast" that will come and kill all christians, it is talking about muslims, as they own scripture(hadith) tells them to kill christians.

muslim explain these contradictions of scriptures by saying that Quran is right and the other two are just corrupted.


these scriptures have nothin in common, besides the prophet.. but even on the prophets life stories they disagree..

Now one of you asked where in the quran does it mention sikhs. Sikhism is amongst the many new religions that came after islam, Allah will not judge you any less or more if you were sikh, chriatian, hindu, budhist......you will classified as either muslim, or kaafir.

exactly my sister. and we will all go to hell, even though we are Good true God fearing people. Ghandi and mother teresa will both go to hell...poor people. they were so good people, yet they will burn in hell..

Now i read guru nank went to makah, n when his feet were forced on either side, the kabah moved in that direction (astagfirullah). Do you believe in this?

some sikh sites talk about this, but no it is not true. what happend was that a man come to him and said "move your Feet, you are pointing them towards the House of God" and then he said "Oh my lovely brother, then tell me where God is not"?
talking about a house, it must mean that someone lives there. and when its "Gods house" it must mean God lives there.. and then he said" Show me a a direction where God is not" as God is everywhere, and not limited to a certain place.

and yes Muhammad, Moses; Jesus and all other prophets made miracles, but we should not follow them just because they made miracles. in India we have people that can cure you for diseases or tell you about what will happen tommorow, and these things come true...if they then said "we are prophets" does it mean we should follow them? no...but poor people get fooled by this and follows them as they think" he can do something we cant"..

thats why the Gurus said "Miracles are just a cheap way of fooling people"..

Ma Salaam
and sister, i do not take anything personally :) i am a calm person.

[muslimah19]

Riiiiiiiiiiiite clearly there must have been a misunderstanding along the way.

Lol dhillion ji i wouldnt regard the incident in makah as i do not believe it happen.

N i have been reading the post but i get confused between the ones you rite for moss n myself.

Miracles are just an example i have merely given. Yes you are a human. Out of curiosity have you always been devoted to your religion or is it a gradual thing where you realised you were not achieving something?

Today we have our book,you have yours, n they have theres. claims are that it is the word of god. They all have history in it, which we reflect upon. I do not need a light to shine down on me and voice to cum from the sky to know that allah exists. Iv got all i need and so has every muslim. But back in that era, when a man walks up2 and says i am a messenger from god....whose going to believe him?? Do you understand. And there were many that did not believe and thats why allah repeats in the quran that even if he was to give you a sign today you will not believe. Is that not true? You yourself ponder over this. To tell you the truth im glad iv met you. Subhanallah instead of being side tracked i have become a wiser person. I did not know much about sikhism, but now i see what the quran says reflects upon my everyday life.

amardeep, who said the poor are going to hell?? My goodness where do you get this information from. I get the impression that you go on them kind of websites that pick out apparent faults that they have made out, such as the one about the earth being flat...whats that all about??? When you are researching do proper research, dont just pick out bits. Like both you and dhillion must have said, you must read the whole quran and understand its meaning. The earth is flat isnt it?? The ground you walk on what is it?? rounded?? no it is flat so that we may travel the lands. N the earth as in the globe is described as an egg shape.Meaning that it is not perfectly rounded but slight oval shape.

Amardeep i know of the event that happend but cut it short :hiding: to get my point.

I think wats happened is that you are taking the word miracle out of context. To me its something out of the ordinary, does not happened every day.

Curing diseases, ok thats become an everyday thing now. Every corner you turn, you hear stories. But that is not wat i am referring to.


Yes i know the scriptures contradict themselves, but the basic beliefs are there, which should make one explore the religions even more dont you think. Well that my opinion purely because i put myself in sum1 shoes hu was actually searching for the meaning of life.

Y would they not contradict. They were changed ova time, and the truth got altered with it.

Dhillion dr zakir naik has a website, cant remeb it tho sori, if i do i shall inform you.



Anyways this will be my last post now im afraid. I am sorry to leave....altough i was getting a bit addicted lol. Wish you all the luck in the future. Cya later

thanks for the info on your religion guys

[amardeep]

Salaam aleichum Soldier.


soldier2000 wrote:

Amardeep your comments in post 212, specially about logic is not consistent with your doctrines- Sirgun/Nargun defies logic- and your colleague ISDHILLION confirms that-

as far as i am concerned, all i said was that the rules of sikhism are all about logic. there is not a rule in it which does not have a logically reason. so please dont put words into my mouth.

regarding the sirgun/nargun issue u came up with, i did a little bit of reading, but i could not find much. and then i read the article on the sikhism_islam interfaith site at i just made me laugh lol.


sochai soch na hova-ee jay sochee lakh vaar.
By thinking, He cannot be reduced to thought, even by thinking hundreds of thousands of times.

this is what you are doing. you are trying to reduce God astagfarallah!

tell me according to Islam, is it possible to know the limits of Allah? does he even have limits? if you say yes, then you have degraded Allah Subhana Wa Tala and reduced him into something which we can comprehend in our small minds. even in Islam i think it is said that our minds will never know the ways of the Lord.
It is in no way possible to describe the Lord, not even in Islam. The Quran mentions features about him, for instance in the bismillah we hear that he is the Compassionate, the Merciful, the forgiver etc. but do u think this is all? Do you think that the Quran tells you all there is about God?

jay ha-o jaanaa aakhaa naahee kahnaa kathan na jaa-ee.
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.


Sirgun Nargun is about God being “formless” and then “not formless” at the same time.

You say this is a contradiction. I say this is pure logic. We as humans have a limited mind. We cant understand everything. We are limited. We can do a lot of progress in life, but at some point we have reached our limit and there is then no way to cross that limit. Let me give you an example:

Every year in the Olympics we see a 100 m run. And lets say that they break the world record each year and the record is now on 10 seconds. Amazing that they keep on breaking it each year, but we as humans are limited. At some point we well not be able to break our own records. We will never be able to run 100 meters in 2 seconds. Gurbani states this:

“The Lord created all creatures and they have been assigned different tasks.”


“He has so constructed His World that no one creature or species is exactly like the other.”
(AGGS p. 1056)

So the same way you cant compare an animal to a human, then you cant compare a human to God, as God is above is all.

as I have just shown you, humans are limited and they can only do things to a certain degree. But this is not the case with God:

His limits cannot be perceived. What is the Mystery of His Mind? Page 5, Line 7

On the sikh islam site they say that God is limited and there are certain things he can not do

but His limits cannot be found. Page 5, Line 9

you try to use your human mind to explain God. That’s the same as if you go to an airplane, open up its motor and try to explain which wire goes where, even though you know nothing about airplanes. The same way the airplane motor is decreasing your mind limit, so has God limited our minds.

So as dhillon has stated many times; God cant be described with logic.
Even your scripture says so in the Surat Iklas saying:
112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.

This is exactly sikhis point. There is NOONE like him. There is noone in this world or universe that is sirgun and nirgun besides God.


Then you say that these things contradict. This is hilarious. I could say the same thing about the Quran. In the bismillah we hear that God is forgiving, mercifull and compassionate, yet in all of these ayat we hear about Gods wrath. How can he be forgiving, and still be angry at the same time? By being forgiving , it should dispel his anger should’n it? Lol..can u see where im going?

001.007 002.059 002.061 002.090 003.112 003.134 003.162 004.093 005.060 005.080 006.040 006.147 006.148 007.071 007.097 007.098 007.152 007.162 008.016 010.027 012.107 012.110 013.013 014.021 014.044 015.090 016.026 016.034 016.045 016.058 016.094 016.106 016.113 017.015 017.057 018.055 020.081 020.086 021.042 021.046 021.087 022.002 024.009 025.065 029.010 029.029 033.025 034.005 040.029 040.083 042.016 045.011 047.028 048.006 054.037 054.039 057.013 058.014 059.002 060.013 067.018 069.047 076.010 104.006

You say that God can be described with logics and rationality. Then tell me. Everything we know of his mortal. Nothing exists forever, so how can God be immortal? God has been around for 105453543543543543545454354354354354355 times 44354353324254053 times 5432547875987574587858475 billion years, BEFORE he created the universe. Yet he was not doing anything as the world is only 3-4 billion years old. Wow this is rational huh. We live and die, but God has been around for so long lol…



Tell me. is there a limit to God?

Ma Salaama.

Dhillon Paaji if i have said anything wrong then please do correct me.

[amardeep]

Salaam muslimah19.

i did'n mean poor as in people having no money. i said "poor people" as in i feel sorry for them. the word has to meanings.. "poor ghandi" does not mean "broke Ghandi without money"..it means" how sorry i feel for Ghandi he will go to hell"..

do u see?

i apalogise for the misuse of words.

Ma Salaama

[amardeep]

and thanks for your views on life muslimah19. it was a pleasure debating with u.

May Allah swt/Akaal Purkh bless you..

Waleichum Salam wa Rahmatulahi Allahu Wa barakatu.

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Muslimah Ji:)


“Out of curiosity have you always been devoted to your religion or is it a gradual thing where you realised you were not achieving something?”


when I was a school I was always the best in my class at religious studies I always believed that Sikhism was different but never had the same devotion then that I do today, a famous writer called Cunningham once said that “Sikhs are bound by an objective know only to them” – I think its this originality in Sikhism which I am drawn too aswell as the rich heritage.

“whose going to believe him?? Do you understand”

I understand, and my guru never said he was a messenger, he never brought a message the sri guru granth sahib ji is not a message, in Sikhism god went further and this time he proclaimed that the word was god, not a message, and its because all the other religions went astray at that time it made sense to have a spiritual form of enlightenment captured in history forever rather than a book of guidance. But if you feel that our guru is made up etc and you can live life with a clear conscience then that’s cool I don’t want youre faith to be divided either, but I as an individual do not renounce any religion but know that Sikhism is the path most righteous.


“you must read the whole quran and understand its meaning”

if I want to refute Islam then yes but I have no interest in refuting it I do not want to read an angelic revelation when I have god to guide me today – I am not saying this to poke fun I am being serious.


“thanks for the info on your religion guys”

have a nice day:thankyou:


ISDhillon


Ps well said Amardeep for the stuff on nirgun/sargun, although I believe when god says "maan tu jot swaroop hai apna mool pahchaan" - he is asking us to find the mool within, no?, so in that sense our soul which is part of the greater ocean must be nirgun/sargun aswell? this is the way i always understood it cos i cant imagine my soul any different than god cos SGGS always says god guru sikh is one. Anyhow this is the level to which I always understood.:)

[unbreakable]

I see my muslim brothers here have avoided answering my questions/posts.

I wonder why?:rollseyes :giggling: ;D

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I see my muslim brothers here have avoided answering my questions/posts.

I wonder why?:rollseyes :giggling: ;D

Hi Unbreakable,
Which argument do you feel has not been answered?

And more importantly, if you feel that your religion is beyond reason and logic (as ISDhillon does) then why do you want to reason about it?

[ISDhillon]

Hi Unbreakable,
Which argument do you feel has not been answered?

And more importantly, if you feel that your religion is beyond reason and logic (as ISDhillon does) then why do you want to reason about it?

Ansar please read post 223 I have written the same thing so many times I am sick and tired of repeating myself.

Thankyou much appreciated,

ISDhillon:)

[unbreakable]

Hi Unbreakable,
Which argument do you feel has not been answered?

And more importantly, if you feel that your religion is beyond reason and logic (as ISDhillon does) then why do you want to reason about it?

Brother or Sister, I honestly do not careor am bothered what you or your brothers/sisters think about me and the faith I follow.

As far as I am concerned there is no argument. But if you insist, here I ask again.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it kept?

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Brother or Sister,

Brother :brother:

But if you insist, here I ask again.

Let's get one thing straight - I'm not insisting on anything. You challenged Muslims here to respond, so I did.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it kept?

What stone of Jannah are you talking about? I don't want to assume anything.

[unbreakable]

Let's get one thing straight - I'm not insisting on anything. You challenged Muslims here to respond, so I did.

What stone of Jannah are you talking about? I don't want to assume anything.

My god you are a stupid one. I challenged Muslims? Why would I even bother? The challenge was placed by you and your brothers.

Myself and my brothers are merely responding and from what I can see you have weak arguments based on a foundation of assumption.

Get some glasses please and read the first half dozen posts where your muslims are mocking and slandering the Sikhs. (you might want to edit your signature to reflect your true nature).

NOW back to the questions

How many stones of Janat are there?

If there is more than one, then please tell me, where is it kept?

What is it?

Simple question.

[unbreakable]

A small request. Please don't make me repeat myself and please read the question carefully before replying and it might help if some thought was applied to your answers.

:giggling:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

My god you are a stupid one.

It's been a while since I've seen someone resort to such blatant insults on the forum. If you are unwilling to engage in intellectual discussion why be insulting? Your disrespectful attitude disgraces only yourself and you do a disservice to your religion with such comments.

You are a new member but let me make it clear to you right here and now that this immature behaviour will not be tolerated on this forum.

I challenged Muslims? Why would I even bother?

That's what you need to answer. You said:

I see my muslim brothers here have avoided answering my questions/posts.

I wonder why?:rollseyes :giggling: ;D

NOW back to the questions

How many stones of Janat are there?

There could be an infinite number of stones in paradise. Please be specific.

If there is more than one, then please tell me, where is it kept?

In paradise. You haven't been specific so don't expect a specific response. Which stone do you want to know about and what exactly do you want to know?

I don't mind entertaining your questions but if you proceed with immature insults again, then there is no need to discuss anything with you.

Regards

[unbreakable]

It's been a while since I've seen someone resort to such blatant insults on the forum. If you are unwilling to engage in intellectual discussion why be insulting? Your disrespectful attitude disgraces only yourself and you do a disservice to your religion with such comments.

Go to the first page of this thread and you shall see the "intellectual discussion" which your muslims started.

You are a new member but let me make it clear to you right here and now that this immature behaviour will not be tolerated on this forum.

:giggling: My bad. Let me ask you; you don't expect people to repeat themselves time after time. Thats annoying. :)

There could be an infinite number of stones in paradise. Please be specific.
In paradise. You haven't been specific so don't expect a specific response. Which stone do you want to know about and what exactly do you want to know?I don't mind entertaining your questions but if you proceed with immature insults again, then there is no need to discuss anything with you.

Fine, lets "entertain you".

I did not say "Stone in paradise", I said "from". there is a difference. Its like saying "this fish is in the river babylon" and "this fish is from the river babylon".

Now that the quick english lesson is over.

According to Muslims a stone from paradise, known as the Stone of Janat was found, not too sure during the prophets time or after, but they found a stone.

I wanted to know about that and where it is kept, what do you do with it..etc.

I am sure my Muslim brothers and sisters here know about?

Remember, I said its FROM paradise, meaning it fell out of the sky (or where ever the muslim paradise is) and landed in Saudi arabia.

[unbreakable]

Further I forgot to mention, when it fell out of the sky, it was "white" then it suddenly turned "black" in colour. This according to some muslims is because of the Sins of the people of earth? (I think it was hot, due to the gravitational pull of the earth, it heated up and cooled down, thus reverting back to its original colour, many muslims share this view point aswell)

[Lion King]

Apologies for my ignorance with regard to the Hadith and the Koran...:uhwhat

Lion King

[starfortress]

salam and greetings to all

for unbreakable

In the bottom of my heart i think u already know where or what is the black stone, al-Hajar-ul-Aswad might be the best candidate for something that you keeping asking, there is nothing special about it but many non muslims had a wrong view on it.It is one of the cornerstones of the Kaaba, the building towards which all Muslims pray.The Stone was found by Ibrahim(pbuh) and his son Ismail(pbuh) when they were searching for stones with which to build the Kaaba.Many Muslims regard the Stone as just a stone,our prophet(pbuh) kiss the stone and the stone itself signed as ummat(prophet followers)so all the muslim follow what our prophet(pbuh) do as a sunnah thats all.

Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:

'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

:brother:

[amardeep]

is there anything else you would like to have explained?

The Quran says that God is above the 7 heavens. does'nt this mean that God is in space? did'n Quran know that people would one day be able to travel in space? where is he then on his throne in space??

and i still need to see those 3-5 scientific verses from the Quran talking about the creation or the universe..

[Mohsin]

This was your original question

Question.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it?

Then you asked

Brother or Sister, I honestly do not careor am bothered what you or your brothers/sisters think about me and the faith I follow.

As far as I am concerned there is no argument. But if you insist, here I ask again.

What is the stone of Janat (paradise)?
Where is it kept?

Both are vague, you never said "from". You can see how vague the question is and that it can mean anything, so i believe you should apologise to bro Ansar for calling him stupid, that is if you are humble enough to admit you are wrong

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

The challenge was placed by you and your brothers.
...

...read the first half dozen posts where your muslims are mocking and slandering the Sikhs.

I thought I should clarify that although the thread began with some offensive remarks, many of these were removed and members were advised to remain respectful, which they took on board and thereafter apologised - this can be understood by reading the first pages.

It is very nice of you to come and explain your religion, since many people were unsure about what it involved, but unfortunately it hasn't been the best of discussions. This is because while there have been some people who have come and done the right thing, others have entered the discussion by simply pasting things from irrelevant debates on other forums when they could have simply clarified the questions raised here, and then resorting to insultive behaviour when some content was rightfully removed.

Since the original questions were left and new ones were raised about Islam, I believe the "challenge" is not one-sided as was implied and it would be helpful if we could deal with them one at a time since I am sure they will be answered all in good time.

Thank you for your willingness to dialogue and reading the forum rules,

Warm Regards.

[amardeep]

Salaam Muhammad.

you are right. the focus on the debate has changed, and then we also started questioning Islam. yet i see no problems with this aslong as we are still answering each others questions.

and yes, no one should be slamming and cursing each other. we are not animals, and none of over prophets would have supported this behaviour.

as far as i think, we have explained all the questions raised on sikhism, but if you have anymore, then you are all welcome to ask us.

Ma Salaama

[ISDhillon]

Does everyone have to kiss the stone and on hajj wont their be a lot of saliva?, making it unhygenic?

[afriend]

Hmmm......

Would you be reluctant to kiss your brother or sister, or even wife?

[ISDhillon]

Hmmm......

Would you be reluctant to kiss your brother or sister, or even wife?

I understand what your sayin but think about it loads of people kiss it on one day and i have even seen people licking it then isnt that a bit :eek: , like is it compulsory to kiss it or can you just touch it?

[afriend]

Yes....Kissing is not cumpolsory...Just touching is sufficient....