Female Circumcision

[eyes_of_mine]

Before anyone says anything I did think to put this in a womans only sectiON, BUT i really would like to hear what the brothers have to say on this subject aswell.

Female Circumcision is practiced to this day and people attribute this to part Of Islam, to my knowledge its not so, I cannot find a single hadith that supports this, nor any ayah in Quran.
Personally I think its horrendous what they do to these young girls , its evil and sick.

What is your thought on this, do you think its right ?
do you think it has any Islamic value to it if so where is this proof that it is Allowed and wanted in Islam ?

[Zuko]

:sl:

http://www.jannah.org/genderequity/equityappendix.html

Hope this clears things up...

:w:

[Noor]

:sl:

Question :


Nowadays we hear that many doctors denounce the circumcision of girls, and say that it harms them physically and psychologically, and that circumcision is an inherited custom that has no basis is Islam .

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

1-

The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females.

2-

Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man.

3-

Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.” But the scholars differed concerning this hadeeth. Some of them classed it as da’eef (weak) and others classed it as saheeh. It was classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood. The fact that circumcision for women is prescribed in Islam is confirmed by the ahaadeeth quoted above, not by this disputed hadeeth. But the scholars differed concerning the ruling, and there are three opinions:

1 – That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women. end quote.

See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 – That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women. end quote.

See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 – That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women. End quote

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.

Secondly:

With regard to the criticism of circumcision by some doctors, and their claim that it is harmful both physically and psychologically,

This criticism of theirs is not valid. It is sufficient for us Muslims that something be proven to be from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then we will follow it, and we are certain that it is beneficial and not harmful. If it were harmful, Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would not have prescribed it for us.

In the answer to question no. 45528 we have mentioned some of the medical benefits of circumcision for women, quoting from some doctors.

Thirdly:

We would add here the fatwas of some modern scholars who have responded to this war that has been launched against female circumcision on the grounds that it is harmful to health.

Shaykh Jaad al-Haqq ‘Ali Jaad al-Haqq, the former Shaykh of al-Azhar, said:

Hence the fuqaha’ of all madhhabs are agreed that circumcision for both men and woman is part of the fitrah of Islam and one of the symbols of the faith, and it is something praiseworthy. There is no report from any of the Muslim fuqaha’, according to what we have studied in their books that are available to us, to say that circumcision is forbidden for men or women, or that it is not permissible, or that it is harmful for females, if it is done in the manner that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) taught to Umm Habeebah in the report quoted above.

Then he said:

From the above it is clear that the circumcision of girls – which is the topic under discussion here – is part of the fitrah of Islam, and the way it is to be done is the method that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained. It is not right to abandon his teachings for the view of anyone else, even if that is a doctor, because medicine is knowledge and knowledge is always developing and changing. End quote.

In the fatwa of Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqar – the former heard of the Fatwa Committee in al-Azhar – it says:

The calls which urge the banning of female circumcision are call that go against Islam, because there is no clear text in the Qur’aan or Sunnah and there is no opinion of the fuqaha’ that says that female circumcision is haraam. Female circumcision is either obligatory or recommended. Even though there is a fiqhi principle which says that the decree of a ruler may put an end to a dispute regarding controversial matters, the decree of the ruler in this case cannot be but either of two things: that it is either obligatory or recommended, and it is not correct to issue a decree banning it, so as not to go against sharee’ah which is the principal source of legislation in our land, whose constitution states that Islam is the official religion of the country. It is permissible to issue some legislation that provides guidelines for performing this procedure (female circumcision) in the proper manner in such a way that does not contradict the rulings of sharee’ah.

The words of the doctors and others are not definitive. Scientific discoveries are still opening doors every day which change our old perceptions. End quote.

In the fatwa of Dar al-Ifta’ al-Misriyyah (6/1986) it says:

Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion. They acknowledge that the rates of cancer among circumcised men are lower than among those who are not circumcised, and some of these doctors clearly recommend that circumcision should be done by doctors and not these ignorant women, so that the operation will be safe and there will be no negative consequences. However, medical theories about disease and the way to treat it are not fixed, rather they change with time and with ongoing research. So it is not correct to rely on them when criticizing circumcision which the Wise and All-Knowing Lawgiver has decreed in His wisdom for mankind. Experience has taught us that the wisdom behind some rulings and Sunnahs may be hidden from us. May Allaah help us all to follow the right path. End quote.



Hope that clears somethings up!


:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

SalAM alykum
Before posting this topic I had checked Quran and Hadiths and I had found no evidence what so ever that circumcision is obligatory or reccoemneded even for women, and it is VERY VERY CLEAR, if its something that is doubtfull then its better we dont do this.

But as always culture vultures can't help themselves.
There is no hadith from the Prophet PBUH saying anything about woman circumcision, also NOOR posted this hadith about the 5 things, one of the five things was trim the moustache, but we dont start saying this is enough evidence that it means women aswell, its clear its referring to men.

But I have something much better , that no one has mentioned yet and that is the hadith from shahi Bakari , narrated by (corrected myself not aisha but abu Haraita Allahs Apostle who said that Abraham cirumcised himself at the age of 80.

Abraham did this to himself not to his DAUGHTERS or his WIFE,

I have no doubt what so ever that cirumcision in women is not at all allowed it is a form of mutilation therefore must be haram, not only that there is no mention of this at all in Quran even, to use the argument that womens circumcision is like that of mens is basically ridiculous, we all know our private parts are COMPLETLEY different, therefore must be treated different.

Its a sad thing in this day and age when Muslims in this world still continue to carry out tradtions of mutalation and then kid themselve and delude themselves that its part of the sunnah.
:thumbs_do l

Aalimah Thankyou so much for the link !
And dear mods dont delete this topic , I don;t think it deserves to be brushed under the carpet , plus its a fact of life.

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[minaz]

so where/who practises female circumcision today?

[Fatma Mahmoud]

This is a sad topic but one that surely needs to be addressed. I am so afraid because this is something I saw being done in a documentary on television one time and I never heard of it being done before. I asked my husband about it as he was Muslim all his life. He gave me a reason why it is done in Egypt but I just don't agree with it. My husband is an Egyptian man and I told him that I don't want it done to our daughters when we have children. He seems to want it done. I know that I must obey my husband but this is one thing I am strongly against. How does one get their husband to see their point of view of the situation without causing problems in the marriage?

Assalamu Alaikum

[eyes_of_mine]

Alykum salam
I agree with you that it certainly is a topic that does need addressing.
You will have to ask him for evidence from hadiths as proof that it iwll be fine to do this to your daughters (they wont thank you for it believe me)
When he will struggle to find any evidence then concede there is no good evidence he will have to agree that it is a ridiculous cultural practice with no Islamic evidence to back such an act up.

Find some video footage of what these girls go through and let him watch it, Im sure he will think twice after that.

[eyes_of_mine]

Dr Zakir Naik , yes a REAL DR for those who are familuar with him and VERY respected scholor who wins all debates HANDS down, because he comes with accurate information and hadiths, Ayahs,

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/us/genital_mutilation.htm

I will paste abit, PLEASE I urge you all to have a look, especially those that agree with this gross act .
was asked this question before: Is genital mutilation for females allowed in Islam? The answer is no, it is not. Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him clearly prohibited mutilation or maiming of the body:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Yazid Al-Ansari: "The Prophet forbade robbery (taking away what belongs to others without their permission), and also forbade mutilation (or maiming) of bodies. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Oppressions, Volume 3, Book 43, Number 654)"

Also Malik Muwatta may Allah Almighty rest his soul and be pleased with him taught that genital mutilation for men is not allowed in Islam. He was a famous scholar after our Prophet peace be upon him. He has compilations of many of the Sayings and teachings of our Prophet peace be upon him:

"Malik related to me that the generally agreed on way of doing things amongst the community about an accident is that there is no blood-money until the victim is better. If a man's bone, either a hand, or a foot, or another part of his body, is broken accidentally and it heals and becomes sound and returns to its form, there is no blood-money for it. If the limb is impaired or there is a scar on it, there is blood-money for it according to the extent that it is impaired.
..........
Malik said, 'The generally agreed on way of doing things in our community is that when the doctor performs a circumcision and cuts off the glans, he must pay the full blood-money. That is because it is an accident which the tribe is responsible for, and the full blood money is payable for all that in which a doctor errs or exceeds, when it is not intentional.' (Translation of Malik's Muwatta, Blood-Money, Book 43, Number 43.5.4a)"

As you can see above from our Prophet's Saying, any type of body mutilation or maiming, even if it were a small tattoo is clearly prohibited in Islam. Surgical errors when dealing with the man's glans (a small rounded gland-like structure; especially that at the end of the penis or clitoris) are punishable. This clearly proves that intentional genital mutilation is prohibited in Islam.

Notice that Malik Muwatta was talking about circumcisions done to males only. No females were mentioned. Below we will see more proofs that circumcision in Islam is meant for males only.

I personally am not aware of any Muslim country that allows genital mutilation for females. But however, if you heard of Muslims practicing it in the third world countries, it is either a lie, or an old bad tradition that some people or tribes might still follow, even though their (originally pagan) traditions violate Islam's way of life and GOD Almighty's Laws.

So, if you are concerned about the Religion of Islam allowing such sick tradition, then please know that Islam prohibits it. If some Muslim people (I never heard of any myself) are still doing it, then this has nothing to do with Islam, and I am positively sure that they are NOT known to their governments or local authorities.

End

Only thing I will say is , obvously DR Naik is not aware of just HOW many muslims in 3rd world countries are doing this and goverment authoritys do know about it.

[Fatma Mahmoud]

Thank you for the advice sis. I will do that. When I saw this being done on television in the documentary I was watching ... I was appalled by what I saw and I cringed every second. It was extremely painful for these girls to have it done and they screamed every second it was being done. It is something I never want to have to see again. I just can't imagine putting any girls through such a horrific act.

[Noor]

:sl:

This topic is one that is filled with emotions and so forth. Firstly, one must understand the difference between female circumcision and female genital mutilation, because there is a huge difference. Also, one must remember that it is haraam to make something that Allah made halaal, especially when categorized as mubaah.

Many of us, have ill feelings towards this action, but if nothing in Qura'an and Sunnah forbids female circumcision, then we all have no right to say that it is haraam.

Personally, I do not believe that female circumcision is obligatory in Islam. Many scholars conclude that female circumcision is mustahab and since mustahab is a commandment that is not binding, if one does not do a musthab action, they are not punishable.


And eyes_of_mine, Dr Zakir Naik is not a scholar, nor did he profess to be one.


:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

You might exscuse the emotions when it comes to sexually assualting and mutiliating kids, however none the less emtions aside even this topic has obviouslly come with some proofs and evidences of why circumcision for women has no Islamic backing for it.
Your only defence for it sort of being allowed, may we say turn a blind eye to is that fact that in Quran and Sunnah it is not written that people SHOULD not do that to their girl children, its is not logical , taking that sort of attitude its like your making rules up that ARE not there which by the way will NEVER make it HALAL , at best its a doubtfull thing and doubtfull things we should steer clear off.


The Quran tells husbands to make sure they please their wives sexually , how can a husband do this when the girl has had that done ? so where does female circumcision fit into that ? please do answer inshallah.

As for Dr Zakir Naik not being a scholor maybe so however his expertise and knowledge of Quran, torah and bible make him better than alot most scholors with his scientific and medical knowledge added on.

Sheikh Ahmed Deedat said this about him
Sheikh Ahmed Deedat, the world famous orator on Islam and Comparative Religion, who had called Dr. Zakir, "Deedat plus" in 1994, presented a plaque in May 2000 awarded to Dr. Zakir Abdul-Karim Naik for his achievement in the field of Da’wah and the study of Comparative Religion with the engraving "Son what you have done in 4 years had taken me 40 years to accomplish, Alhamdullilah.”

Now how many scholors would love to get the deedat plus ?

A medical doctor by professional training, Dr. Zakir Naik is renowed as a dynamic international orator on Islam and Comparative Religion. Dr. Zakir Naik clarifies Islamic viewpoints and clears misconceptionsabout Islam, using the Qur'an, authentic Hadith and other religious Scriptures as a basis, in conjunction with reason, logic and scientific facts. He is 37 years old.

37 years old, can you imagine him at 57 yrears old ?

[Umm Safiya]

:sl:

Agh, it's just sick.. My whole body hurts when I'm reading this.. Even though it is permisseble(some says) then I think you should abstain from it..

[eyes_of_mine]

Also I found this which I believe has relevance
Vol 8 Book 76 Hadith 533
Narrated by Ibn Abass: The Prophet stood amongst us and addressed saying you will be gathered barefoot, naked, and UNCIRCUMCISED (as Allah says) As we began the first creation, We shall repeat it....' (21.104)
And the first human being to be dressed on the day of resserection will be (The Prophet)Abraham Al Khalil, Then will be brought some men of my followers who will be taken toward the left (I.e the Fire), and I will say: 'Oh Lord my companions' upon which Allah will say: You do not know what they did after you left them, I will then say as the pious slave Jesus said, And I was witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them...(upto)...the All-WISE' (5.117-118). The narrator added: Then it will be said that these people (regulated from Islam that is) Kept on turning on their heels (deserting Islam)

Also another thing to consider is that boys were not circumcised at birth in the Prophets days PBUH boys were apparently not circumscised untill they reached puberty (see Vol 8, Book 74, Hadith 313 shahi Bukhari)

so shall we say lets act on this hadith and circumcise all boys at the age of puberty ? any Dr will tell you HOW PAINFULL that will be and is only reccomended on medical grounds, its done to boys at birth because
A; They will NOT remember it
B: It will be less painfull
c; Its easier to do and causes less scarring
D: Circumcision in men will not cause them to loose sexual feeling
HOWEVER
Circumcision is not done to girls when they are babies, it will be to difficult if not impossible to cut away at their bits so they wait till the girl is grown when she will
A; remember
B; be caused GREAT distress and Pain
c: be denied sexual pleasure with her husband

so its is LITTLE wonder that in Quran and Sunnah there is no HADITH saying this obligatory or needed on the women . indeed the mere fact that upon being gathered before allah not only will we be Naked we will also be uncircumcised, WHY is this fact been mentioned and further proof in the Quran Allah intends to have us as he created us and that is UNCIRCUMCISED, No TATTOOS ect ect ect ect.

It is so clear .
Please Reflect on that.

[Noor]

:sl:

Listen, I fear my Creator, in that I will never testify something to be haraam, no matter how awful the action may be, unless the Qur’an and Sunnah forbid it. Also, I’m in no way promoting or encouraging female circumcision, however, I will not say that it is haraam. You must remember everything is halaal until proven haraam. If the Shari’ah does not speak about an act that is not worship, then the default is halaal until proof is brought that the Shari’ah forbids it. Again, you and I have not right to say that something is haraam, so I would advise you to control your emotions when discussing something which you have little knowledge of, attempting to involve Islam and concluding to a notion. If scholars are debating such a topic, we cannot say that this is it, khalaas. Granted, you are permitted to have an opinion, but desist from speaking for Islam.


Hadith: What Allah made halaal in His book is halaal. And what he made haraam in His book is haraam. As for what He kept silent about, those things are from His grace, so accept this grace from Allah. Verily, Allah was never to have forgotten anything.


Btw, I know Dr. Zakir Naik is a remarkable man, I was only correcting you.

:w:

P.S. though you may disagree with me, do not deprive us a salaam.

[ummbilal]

salaam alakum all,

i have to agree with sister noor, and say we shouldnt make staements about subjects we havent full knowlage of.

sister baby muslimah,
circumcision is usually the removal of the male foreskin as is nessecary in islam and judaisim and female circumsision i think you already read about.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I've already made my position clear on the issue of female circumcision. With regard to Dr. Zakir Naik, who's been mentioned, from what I've seen (The Qur'an and the Bible in the light of science) his recall is exceptional (about the best I've ever seen), but his arguments are weak. I'd like to see more of his work, but to be honest I don't expect his argumentation to change much beyond its basic core. (Perhaps I'm being prejudiced there, I don't know).

He's clearly a gifted man; a powerful speaker.

Peace

[eyes_of_mine]

Well if it we are to say everything is halal untill prooved haram isn't that dangerous ?
I do not make a sweeping statement that everything is HARAM untill prooven halal, I merely aired the view of many many muslims and experts ofr that fact.
Circumscision is from the jews its that old !
are we to do everything that was done in times gone by ?

I certainly am not speaking in a personal context and it is not JUST my opinion but many many other ppls opinion aswell.

[pious_hijabi]

Now for the real message..sister I truly think your lost... every muslim is told to follow the actions of prophet Muhammad PBUH and for you to belittle his actions is an act of kufr. You have to remember that our prophet is the best of creation, his action were according to what Allah SWT said and his actions are recorded in the sunnah for us to follow. So I suggest you keep your remarks about the prophet to yourself. It is okay for you to have an opinion on female circumcision but for you to speak for the entire ummah is a sign of ignorance. you should know that Islam is timeless, therefor there is no "back in the days".
wa/salam and may Allah forgive you.

[Noor]

:sl:

Eyes_of_mine, seriously, Please read CAREFULLY the following before rushing to write a reply back.

------------

Question of Fatwa As-Salamu `alaykum. What is the Islamic legal ruling concerning female circumcision?
Name of Mufti Yusuf Al-Qaradawi
Content of Reply
Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.


In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear sister, we are very pleased for the great confidence you repose in us and we really commend your apparent interest in having a better understanding of the teachings of Islam and the rulings of this great religion in all matters. In fact, Islam is a religion that encompasses all aspects of life and secures guidance and light for all mankind.

Before delving deep into the question of female circumcision, we would like to make it clear that "female circumcision" means removing the prepuce of the clitoris, not the clitoris itself.

As for the Shari`ah stance on female circumcision, it’s a controversial issue among the Muslim scholars and even doctors.

In response to the question, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, states:

“Actually, this is a controversial issue among jurists and even among doctors. It has sparked off fierce debate in Egypt whereby scholars and doctors are split into proponents and opponents.

However, the most moderate opinion and the most likely one to be correct is in favor of practicing circumcision in the moderate Islamic way indicated in some of the Prophet's hadiths – even though such hadiths are not confirmed to be authentic. It is reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said to a midwife: "Reduce the size of the clitoris but do not exceed the limit, for that is better for her health and is preferred by husbands". The hadith indicates that circumcision is better for a woman's health and it enhances her conjugal relation with her husband. It’s noteworthy that the Prophet's saying "do not exceed the limit" means do not totally remove the clitoris.

Actually, Muslim countries differ over the issue of female circumcision; some countries sanction it whereas others do not. Anyhow, it is not obligatory, whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world. But whoever chooses not to do it is not considered to have committed a sin for it is mainly meant to dignify women as held by scholars.

As for male circumcision, it is one of the obligatory practices in Islam. Scholars even hold that whoever finds that some Muslims have stopped practicing male circumcision should force them to revert to this Sunnah that characterizes the Muslim nation.”

------------------


Also, take a look at this;


Question of Fatwa As-Salamu `Alaykum. There is a widespread practice of 'female circumcision' among Muslims in many nations, though limited to some sections only. What does the Shari’ah say on this and what are the Prophet’s words regarding this?


Name of Mufti Ahmad Kutty
Content of Reply
Wa`alaykum As-Salaamu Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner thanks a lot for your interesting and important question, and we hope our efforts, which are purely for Allah’s Sake, meet your expectations.

In his response to the question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, issues the following Fatwa:

“Circumcision for males is considered an important rite of initiation in Islam. It is a part of the legacy of the Prophet Ibrahim, peace and blessings be upon him, whose role model we have been ordered to follow in the Qur’an. It is, therefore, a highly significant rite in Islam, which distinguishes Muslim males from others.

When we come to the issue of “Female circumcision”, however, the mater is quite different. There is nothing in the sources, either the Qur’an or the Sunnah, to suggest that it is a PRESCRIBED ritual of initiation for women in Islam.

While one finds a number of traditions from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, which clearly indicates that he ordered pagan males who converted to undergo circumcision, it is not stated anywhere that the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, ordered any woman who entered Islam to undergo this practice.

Because there is no absolute proof from the sources of Islam prescribing female circumcision, the vast majority of scholars do not include it in the OBLIGATORY rituals of Islam.

It is common knowledge in Islam that if the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, had wanted female circumcision to be an integral aspect of religious practice in Islam the same way that male circumcision is, he would have said so clearly. Since he did not do so, we can safely assume it is not a prescribed ritual of Islam."


--------------

These two opinions are from the same website....islamonline.net

Therefore, you shouldnt bicker about this subject. There are many opinions, and you have no right to say,mine is incorrect and yours is correct. We agree that female genital mutilation is awful, and wrong. And we also agree that female circumcision is not obligatory in Islam. I say that female circumcision is mubaah and you say that it is haraam. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then we may continue this discussion.



:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

Salam Alykum
---
Anyway thankyou for the input from the 2 sheikhs. what the two sheikhs had in common was their admittance that no where in Quran or Sunnah is it written that female circumcision is halal or that is a something that Prophet or Allah presecribed to the people.
You and others who take your thinking of 'lets allow it as its not been written in Quran as 'haram' SO LETS ASSUME ITS HALAL. are in my view and others view WRONG.

It is said that if something falls into the doubtfull areas, things we cannot be sure about then one should avoid the doubtfull things.

Female circumscision is at the very least DOUBTFULL and depending on how you interpret the Quran and Sunnah some of us do see it as Haram, even though they may be hadiths talking about it sort of being allowed or turned a blind eye to, these hadiths by the scholors admittance are WEAK hadiths, even more of an example of why its 'DOUBTULL'.

Some might argue that to say things that are doubtfull are halal untill we know otherwise is infact ignorant also ;)

I and others agree there is enough evidence to fairly say that this act of FGM is not permitted in Islam, and Im more than happy to prescribe to that having seen the horrors it causes young girls.

May I suggest to you that you research the horrors of FGM .
The mere fact that if we are going to have muslims that say yes yes its ok go ahead and do it there is nothing that says it is haram so yalla do it, means we will always have those people who GO TO FAR and cause medical problems and deaths of these girls.

Allah left it out the Quran for a reason like you said, if he wanted to he could of put DO NOT DO THIS AT ALL, but maybe he wanted to see what we will do and what they did was barbaric and cultural wrongness and to my mind has no place in Islam (my personal Opinion)

You cannot go on the notion that becuase it is 100% not written in Quran or sunnah that it is HARAM, we cannot operate on the assumption that it is HALAL.

First of all where is your evidence in Quran or Sunnah that says if you doubt it , do it anyway ?

[minaz]

One may call female circumcision haraam on the grounds of it being self harm/mutilation, whilst another may say (isn't there a saying/hadith like) "if in doubt stay away". It's ramadaan sisters and it's quickly getting away from us, keep the nature of your posts good mannered if you may :)

[kadafi]

:sl:

I urge the sisters to discuss respectively in any discussions. In this matter, it's not fitting for any Muslim who does not know the ruling on a certain matter to declare it haraam or halaal. This comes under the category of speaking without knowledge and no Muslim who believes in Allaah and the Last Day should utter such words without any evidence.

Allaah (Exalted is He) says:

Do not act or give judgments in the Deen without knowledge. On the Day of Judgment one’s ears, eyes, and heart will be asked about their deeds

We look at what the imaams have said regarding female circumcision. The scholars differed whether it's obligatory or not but they unanimously agree that it is sunnah for the female and none have declared that it's prohibited. The majority favour that it is sunnah.

The problem is that female circumcision is widely connoted to the practises foundin West Africa. For example, Somalia, where they do not attach moderation but remove the clitoris altogether. This is also called the Pharaonic circumcision and has no basis in the Shariah. Hence, this type of act is refered to as genital mutilation since it exceeds the limitation set.

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

The question of female circumcision was answered as follows by the IslamToday.com team.

This question has been answered by Sheikh Muhammad b. Sâlih al-`Uthaymîn:

The rule of circumcision is a matter of disagreement .The most favored opinion is that it is obligatory for males and voluntary (sunnah) for females. A difference exists between men and women because of the benefits that exist for the male that gets circumcised, since the removal of the foreskin prevents the gathering of urine in the foreskin which may cause inflammation or urine later contaminating clothing upon walking, especially since such impurity of clothes would spoil prayers.

But for female, the situation is different and it is only a matter of minimizing sexual desire which is something secondary and not essential as in the case with men.

However, before doing circumcision the man should be secure that doing so is safe for him. In case he has any doubt that this action would hurt him or cause any kind of affliction, then he can refrain from doing it. It is a principle in our religion that failing to do a duty will not be held against a person in case of incapability.

Evidences that circumcision is obligatory for men are:

1. There are many hadîth that the Prophet (peace be upon him) ordered all new Muslim men to circumcise, and an order means obligation in Islamic law.

2. Circumcision is a distinguishing mark between Muslims and Christians. Muslims used to identify their killed people at war time by this mark, so it is obligatory because Muslims are requested to distinguish themselves from disbelievers, as emulating disbelievers is something unlawful, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates other people (than Muslims) then he belongs to them”.

3. Circumcision means cutting a piece of the body, which is unlawful and unlawful acts can not be legalized unless for some thing obligatory so this shows that circumcision is an obligatory act.

4. Circumcision could be done by a guardian of an orphan from the orphan’s money, and if it was not obligatory, the guardian could never touch the orphan’s body or money.

For all this textual and theoretical evidence, it is clear that circumcision is obligatory for men.

But for women, there is no proof that it is obligatory.

There is a hadith that says: “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and a noble act for women” but it is a weak Hadîth, otherwise it would give a decisive ruling on this matter.

[Ibn `Uthaymîm, Fatawa and Letters, Volume 11 page 117]

From the Fatwâ Department editors:

Please note that not only is the hadîth about female circumcision weak, but what is being practiced on women in many parts of the world, primarily in parts of Africa, is not even circumcision (correct circumcision is merely the removal of excess skin surrounding the clitoris without touching the clitoris) but a form of genital mutilation that is categorically prohibited in Islam. Such practices existed in those cultures before Islam came and were unfortunately perpetuated by the people after they came into Islam, often under the mistaken assumption that the hadîth in question was referring to and validating their practices. Since the hadîth is weak to begin with, and since most people really do not know how to practice circumcision correctly, female circumcision should be avoided.

And Allah knows best.

Fatwâ Department Research Committee of IslamToday chaired by Sheikh `Abd al-Wahhâb al-Turayrî

I hope that answers this question. Members are warned that insults and offensive comments will not be tolerated on this forum - please debate respectfully. Members are also asked to use the 'Report Bad Post' feature to alert Moderators as to which posts need to be dealt with - otherwise it is very difficult for staff to find the offending posts and deal with them.

Lastly, this thread is for the purpose of discussing female circumcision. Other issues, such as the marriage of Aisha rd, should be discussed in other threads. Off-topic posts will be removed.

:w:

[Noor]

:sl:

I say that female circumcision is mubaah and you say that it is haraam. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then we may continue this discussion.


:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

JazakAllahkair sister for your warm hearted post :love:
Your apology is accepted and may you accept mine , I may have been insensitive, not thinking that there could be western side muslimahs who have been circumcised, I could of handled it more sensitive with that factor in mind, and I do not knock anyone who choose to have this done to THEMSELVES, just cant abide it being forced onto girls and hoping they will accept it for her own good when she grows up.

well back to the debate
Im not familuar with the word Mubahh can you explain the meaning for me please. :thumbs_up

[Noor]

:sl:

Ibaahah (mubah)

Definition: Something that is equally permissible to do or not to do. Nuetral.

Other names: Halal, Hill, Mutlaq and Jaa'iz.

If the Shari'ah specifically mentions something as permissible, it takes the term of Halaal and it is worship to believe that is persmissible.

If the Shari'ah does not speak about an issue of worship, then the default is Haraam until proof is brought that the Shari'ah sanctions it. If the Shari'ah does not speak about an act that is not worship, then the default is Halaah until proof is brought that the Shari'ah forbids this.


:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

In that case we would have to lean on the more reliable evidence and looking back there is no evidence that says its obligatory , so do we now say its halal on the basis of that ?
It cannot be argued that in the very least it falls into the doubtfull area and if in doubt -do not do-.
avoid the doubtfull things.

so sister In answer to your Question do I do not think it is mubah going by the definaition you wrote.


My question to you is, do you agree that it is a doubtfull thing/act ?
If it is not a doubtfull act than it must be halal ?

[Noor]

:sl:

I do not believe that female circumcision is in the department of those things classified as doubtful.

There are hadiths that refer to circumcision whether it be males and/or females.

There is no harm on the parents if they do not circumcise their daughters. And if parents have traditions in their culture that adivse circumcision, then they may do so, obeying the instruction of the Prophet (SAW). Abu Dawood (5271) narrated from Umm ‘Atiyyah al-Ansaariyyah that a woman used to do circumcisions in Madeenah and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her: “Do not go to the extreme in cutting; that is better for the woman and more liked by the husband.”

It's quite simple when you think about it. None of the scholars have declared female circumcision to be haraam. Majority of the scholars say that it is Sunnah. Mustahab/Sunnah is a commandment that is not binding. One may choose to do a sunnah action, but if one chooses not to do the action, then they are not punishable. If anything, female circumcision is mubaah. However, this is not the 'mutilation' thing that goes on in some cultures. There is a very humane way that the shari'ah teaches for circumcision of girls. That can be found in the fiqh books.

"Say: Come, bring your witnesses who can bear witness that Allah forbade (all) this. And if they bear witness, do not thou bear witness with them. Follow thou not the whims of those who deny Our revelations, those who believe not in the Hereafter and deem (others) equal with their Lord." An'aam: 150.



Allah truly knows best.


:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

Salam Alykum Noor

What is ear peicing if its not mutalation ? what is anybody peircing if its not mutilation ?
what is tattoo's ?
Of course all haram and we can all agree on that, but we cannot ALL agree on the fact that female circumcision is MORE mutilation than the above I mentioned ?

If truly that is way you see it, that if parents have cultural practices of doing circumscion on girls, using a weak hadith to support such 'cultural' decisions.
then this is your view, some may say you are right and some may say your wrong, the mere fact that you think cultural practices should be accepted AT ALL is worrying.

I wonder out loud if you agree with forced marriages next ? no offense but it seems like same kind of thinking perhaps ?
If an hadith is uclear about a ruling then surely we should look back to Quran for help and if its not in Quran then surely we are better to avoid anything unclear.

the hadith that you hold tight to the Prophet PBUH is not saying this is allowed, he never even said its a good thing, he gave advise if you MUST do it do it like this, there is NOTHING at all to suggest he did this to his daughters, surely if he did he would of mentioned it himself as being a good rightious Islamic duty.

And by the way is there ANY indication of the age of the girls the Prophet came across in the hadith ?

[nikki]

assalamualaikum evry1

:omg: the word mutilation in that article makes me cringe all over!

wow heated argument room!!!

(may i just say that im not certain bout a boys circumcision... i have a book which says they shud be???)

dear brothers and sisters of islam
this is Ramadhan, the bleesed month from Allah... please lets try to spread love not hate.
i see the remarks sayin "eyes of mine" sounds like khufar? to me this duz sound like a harsh judgement and i need to simply elaborate on one point:

yes i am a revert & 18 yrs old, but i feel the sistr is simply saying our beloved Prophet had the ability to marry aisha at such a young age becuz it was in a
non-western society.
now i feel that with her intelect it was obvious she was of sound mind to agree to this. but may i ask the ummah 1 question?

on topic i dont feel a girl should have this done if Allah hasnt made it obligatory.

peace, mercy, blessings and love be upon this Ummah and let us unite as 1
Ameen

xxx 1 :love: , 1 Imaan, 1 Ummah xxx :rose:

[Noor]

AssalamuAlaikum,


What you fail to see is that since the Prophet (saw) said that if you must do it , do it this way, therefore he never said it was haram nor obligatory...so those that choose to do it the sunnah way, and not FGM, may proceed. Take a moment to digest this before you fly off the handle. I am not in any way shape or form advocating nor endorsing FGM, rather, im trying to show the right way to do minor circumcision if one chooses to do so, and also letting people know, even that isn't obligatory.


Wa Alaikum Salaam

Regarding ear piercing:


Question of Fatwa

As-salamu `alaykum. Is there any authentic proof in Islam concerning women piercing their ears? Is it obligatory, allowed, or forbidden?



Name of Mufti Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi
Content of Reply


Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear questioner, thanks for your question, and we implore Allah Almighty to help us serve His cause and render our work for His sake.

There is no legal text from either the Qur’an or the Sunnah that orders women to pierce their ears. Piercing ears for women is a cultural practice that is permissible in Islam according to the tacit approval of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him).

Responding to the question, Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi, director and imam of Al-Falah Islamic Center, Oakville, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

No, it is a cultural practice. However, there is no text in the Islamic sources (mainly the Qur'an and the Sunnah) to go against it. What we know from history is that some female Companions used to wear qurt or earrings, and we have no text to show that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) forbade it.

So, according to the tacit approval or the taqrir of the Prophet, it is acceptable. The same rule applies to piercing the nose.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:
Thread closed temporarily for moderation. (insults, off-topic posts, offensive remarks...subhanAllah its Ramadan).

:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl:

Thread re-opened. There were several rude and unproductive insults that were made in this thread. Such remarks have been deleted. If members continue to violate forum rules, it may result in a ban.

With regard to the issue at hand, it's been agreed that female gential mutilation, or what Br. Kadafi pointed out to be Pharaonic circumcision, is unlawful and has no basis in Islam. Indeed, this is a terrible practice. The difference of opinion only exists with regard to a mild form of female circumcision, which many scholars believe to be voluntary (sunnah).

Scholars have either said it is preferable to do it, or they have said it is preferable to avoid it. What Islam does teach us is that causing harm and suffering to others is forbidden. The most balanced and agreed upon view with regard to female circumcision is as mentioned by the IslamToday Fatwa committee:

Since the hadîth is weak to begin with, and since most people really do not know how to practice circumcision correctly, female circumcision should be avoided. (See here for complete Fatwa.)

I hope this helps, and I hope the discussion will proceed in a manner befitting of muslims.

:w:

[eyes_of_mine]

Salam alykum
Well not much more to say on it, I think you did a fair enough conclusion to the whole debate Answar.

[minaz]

yes i agree well put ansar

[striver_of_life]

not 2 say i am completely right and everything cos i don't have a clue either!!(i seriously can't imagine that!) i never heard of it being practiced in this religion but heard of it being done in other religion and cultures.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I think what Ansar has said is the most rational position, and it's certainly the view I would take on the matter.

Peace

[Noor]

:sl:

May this message meet all in the best of health and eeman.

In my point of view, female circumcision is mubaah.

Ansar stated that : "Scholars have either said it is preferable to do it, or they have said it is preferable to avoid it". Does this not mean that the action is Mubaah?

According to the scholars, a Mubaah (permissible) act is the act that neither brings about reward, if performed, nor brings about punishment, if abandoned. Performing or abandoning the Mubaah are the same.

Shari'ah divides actions into five categories; mandatory(Fard, Wajib), commendable (sunnah), permissible (mubaah), detestable (Makrooh) and strictly forbidden (haraam). Female circumcision falls within the category of the permissible (mubaah). Before I contunue, it must be made clear the type of procedure in which female circumcision is considered mubaah.

Female circumcision is the removal of the hood (or prepuce) of the clitoris. This procedure is, to some degree, analgous to male circumcision since in both cases, no part of the sexual organ is cut off. In both cases also, it is only the foreskin, or outer fold of the skin, which is cut off. Properly done, it is not likely to cause any "matrimonial" problem.

From what you've stated Ansar, it sounds as though you've taken the stance that Female Circumcision is Makrooh.

Correct me if I am wrong.


:w:


P.S. Eid Mubaraak All. :)

[F.Y.]

You have GOT to be joking. As highly emotive this message will seem - Islam does not prescribe female circumcision - i am horrified.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

:sl::sl:
If you'd really like to investigate this matter in greater depth (since you mentioned you found the proofs unsatisfying I'm sure you'd like to read all the proofs before making such a judgement) then I would recommend that you read the chapter on female and male cicumcision in this book as it contains the fatawaa of great shuyukh such as Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Baaz. It mentions that the consensus amongst the madhabs on this issue is that it is sunnah - this is the opinion in the Hanafi, Hanbali, and Maliki madhab. There were some Shafi'ee scholars who said it was obligatory but they were alone in their opinion.

And as I mentioned before, I'm not taking sides as to whether it is Mustahab or Makrooh. But the point here is that as the IslamToday team mentioned (headed by Shaykh Abdul Wahhab At-Turayri, former profesor of Imam Univeristy Saudi Arabia) based on current circumstances the practice is best avoided since the potential harm is greater than the potential benefit.

I hope this clarifies.
:w:

[Noor]

:sl:

May Allah reward you for your efforts in enjoining what is good and forbidding what is wrong.

Ansar, Mash Allah man, how do you do it (serious question)? (The research and all, quite speedy indeed)

JazakAllah Khair for providing me with that information. This subject is one that is incredibly extensive. Certainly more examination is required. Still, all actions have to be placed in a category, and for me, putting female circumcision in grouping with mubaah seems most reasonable. However, I shall explore this topic with the avenues you’ve provided.


:w:

[IZZI ALAMOODY]

:sl: brothers n sisters
i need to know if in islam is allowed for women to be cırcumcised or not.because i need to marry a girl who alredy do that

[Muhammad]

:sl:

Threads merged.

Insha'Allaah, you can find an answer to your question in this thread.

:w:

[M H Kahn]

For centuries, some cultures have allowed and even promoted circumcision of females. The procedure, considered a rite of passage in those cultures, involves removal of the clitoris -- not necessarily surgically.It is believed that female genital circumcision is performed thousands of times a day -- mostly on African women -- using unsterilized knives or razor blades or worse. While many women accept the practice as a part of their culture, a growing number consider it an obscene violation of their bodies and human rights. It is when you think about what it means, holding down a little girl or a baby, cutting her clitoris, if that's not torture, if that's not persecution, I don't know what is!

Fausiya Kasinga was 17-years-old when she decided to escape an arranged marriage in Togo to a 45-year-old man with three other wives.But the real reason she ran was to avoid forced circumcision -- removal of her clitoris .

[Takumi]

Before anyone says anything I did think to put this in a womans only sectiON, BUT i really would like to hear what the brothers have to say on this subject aswell.

Female Circumcision is practiced to this day and people attribute this to part Of Islam, to my knowledge its not so, I cannot find a single hadith that supports this, nor any ayah in Quran.
Personally I think its horrendous what they do to these young girls , its evil and sick.

What is your thought on this, do you think its right ?
do you think it has any Islamic value to it if so where is this proof that it is Allowed and wanted in Islam ?

How extensive has your research been?

Before you say, it's evil and sick, you better make sure that there are absolutely positive that none of the jurists have made a decree on it.

There are two kinds of proofs in Islamic Law.

(a) Qat'ie
(b) Zannie

If you have certain knowledge about Islamic Law, I'd spare you the elaboration if not, this forum is not the place to discuss such an extensive subject matter, I suggest your research further.

I may not forward my opinion based on my whims and fancy. I must decide on the opinions that the scholars have extrapolated based on those two kinds of proofs above. Similarly, I may not say, "I think music is DEFINITELY Haraam". I must, as a muslim re phrase, "According to certain scholars, music is HALAAL".

[tarek]

The prophet means by female circumcision what is called clitorotomy " this is not mutilation or clitorectomy"

Clitoridotomy
"Clitoridotomy" (which is also called "hoodectomy" as a slang term) involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood. The United Nations Population Fund states that this is comparable to male circumcision.[1] In the United States and other Western countries, clitoridotomy is usually performed on adult women rather than on children. It is also known as Sunna circumcision (named after the Arabic word for anything approved by Islamic law and centred in Islamic tradition). However some Muslim clergy oppose all forms of FGC. [2]

Sami A. Aldeeb Abu-Sahlieh, author of 'To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah: Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision' states that: "The most often mentioned narration reports a debate between Prophet Mohammed and Um Habibah (or Um 'Atiyyah). This woman, known as an exciser of female slaves, was one of a group of women who had immigrated with Mohammed. Having seen her, Prophet Mohammed asked her if she kept practicing her profession. She answered affirmatively adding: 'unless it is forbidden and you order me to stop doing it'. Prophet Mohammed replied: 'Yes, it is allowed. Come closer so I can teach you: if you cut, do not overdo it (la tanhaki), because it brings more radiance to the face (ashraq) and it is more pleasant (ahza) for the husband'. According to others, he said: 'Cut slightly and do not overdo it (ashimmi wa-la tanhaki), because it is more pleasant (ahza) for the woman and better (ahab, from other sources abha) for the husband'."

Type I circumcision is defined by the World Health Organisation as clitoridotomy and perhaps excision of part or all of the clitoris (clitoridectomy; see following section). However, some authors (e.g.., Cohen) define type I as at least partial removal of the clitoris.

From the late 19th century until the 1950s, it and other more invasive procedures, including excision of the clitoris and infibulation were practiced in Western countries to control female sexuality, and were advocated in the United States by groups like the Orificial Surgery Society until 1925. Doctors advocating or performing these procedures claimed that girls of all ages would otherwise engage in more masturbation and be "polluted" by the activity, which was referred to as "self-abuse" [3].

Through the 1950s, some doctors continued to advocate clitoridotomy for hygienic reasons or to reduce masturbation. For example, C.F. McDonald wrote in a 1958 paper titled Circumcision of the Female [4],[5], "If the male needs circumcision for cleanliness and hygiene, why not the female? I have operated on perhaps 40 patients who needed this attention." The author describes symptoms as "irritation, scratching, irritability, masturbation, frequency and urgency," and in adults, smegmaliths causing "dyspareunia and frigidity." The author then reported that a two-year old was no longer masturbating so frequently after the procedure. Of adult women, the author stated that "for the first time in their lives, sex ambition became normally satisfied." In the U.S., the last documented clitoridotomy to reduce sexual activity occurred in 1958. The procedure was performed on a 5-year-old girl, reportedly to stop her from masturbating. Justification of the procedure on hygienic grounds, or to reduce masturbation, has since declined. The view that masturbation is a cause of mental and physical illness has dissipated since the mid-20th century [6].

A few doctors and others advocate clitoridotomy of adults, promoting it as a way of increasing sexual sensitivity and sexual pleasure. One claim is that a large clitoral hood may make stimulation of the clitoris difficult. Websites promoting the practice Circlist, bmezine and The Clitoral Hood Removal Information Page contain testimonials and two of them provide summaries of medical studies, including several finding that the majority of women reported improved sensation following the procedure (for example, 87.5% in Rathmann's 1959 study, and 75% in Knowles', as quoted in the summary of studies mentioned previously). However, this improved sensation does not last as the clitoris grows hard and less sensitive, much like when a male is circumcised.

[Pygoscelis]

Tarek, you should aknowledge the source when you quote something.

That was lifted wholesale from the wikipedia article, which is quite good. I recommend it to anybody who wishes to know more about this subject.

From what I have read on the subject, the vast majority of muslims (in the middle east and elsewhere) do not practice female genital mutilation (or cutting) but do practice male genital mutilation (or circumcision). Female genital mutilation is mostly in Africa, especially in Somalia and throughout Africa. It is primarily cultural and not religous.

I noted a few posts here indicating that under Islam it is ok to "decide to be or not to be circumcized". That made me wonder if this is done to adults or children primarily in muslim lands?

Over here in north america it is baby boys who are circumcized. They have no say in the decision of whether or not their genitals will be mutilated.

If it was adult men volunteering to have this done, I would have no objection to it. And I'd have no objection to females having even the nastiest kinds of mutilation done if it was their own free choice and not forced upon them.

Doing it to children I find to be child abuse, and I believe that it should be prosecuted (though that is very unlikely to ever happen here).

Even the lesser kind of it, the cutting of the clitoral hood or removal of the foreskin, I think is abusive. You are going to cause great pain unless it is done with good pain killers and good doctors. And you are depriving the child of pleasure from sex, which you have no earthly right to do.

I put this on a continuum of abuse not too far from Jehova's Witnesses depriving their children of life saving blood tranfusions.

Culture and Religion should never excuse child abuse.

[tarek]

Even the lesser kind of it, the cutting of the clitoral hood or removal of the foreskin, I think is abusive. You are going to cause great pain unless it is done with good pain killers and good doctors. And you are depriving the child of pleasure from sex, which you have no earthly right to do.

Abusive?

Why don't we say it 's abusive for males then?

[Pygoscelis]

Why don't we say it 's abusive for males then?

I just did say that.

I don't know why other's don't.