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Bittersteel
11-19-2005, 06:00 PM
:sl:

Cultural reform

Introduction of the Latin alphabet for Turkish

Mustafa Kemal regarded the fez (which Sultan Mahmud II had originally introduced to the Ottoman Empire's dress code in 1826) as a symbol of feudalism and banned it, encouraging Turkish men to wear European attire. The hijab (veil) for women, while never formally banned, was strongly discouraged; and women were encouraged to wear western apparel and enter the country's workforce. From 1926, the Islamic calendar was replaced with the Gregorian calendar. In 1928 the government decreed that the Arabic script be replaced by a modified Latin alphabet, and citizens between the ages of six and forty were required to attend school and learn the new alphabet. The conservative clergy fiercely opposed these reforms, trying in vain to maintain its traditionally strong influence. As a result of the reforms literacy increased dramatically. The reforms also included extensive removal of Arabic and Persian words from the Turkish language.

Mustafa Kemal opened new schools, where, as part of the curriculum, fine arts were taught to boys as well as girls. Girls had traditionally been excluded entirely from education, but a universal system of education was introduced for children of both sexes. He also lifted the Islamic ban on alcoholic beverages: Mustafa Kemal had an appreciation for the national liquor, rakı, and consumed vast quantities of it. In 1934 he promulgated a law requiring all Turks to adopt surnames. The Grand National Assembly gave him the deferential name Atatürk, meaning "ancestor Turk," and assumption of that name by other men is still forbidden by law.

Seeking to limit the influence of Islam on Turkish political and cultural institutions, which he regarded as one of the principal causes impeding Turkish development, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk abolished the 1300-year-old Islamic caliphate on 3 March 1924 and established a western-style separation of church and state ("mosque" and state) in Turkey. While promoting a secular Turkish state, Atatürk maintained the traditional Ottoman tolerance of religious diversity and freedoms, but viewed these freedoms in the western Enlightenment sense of freedom of conscience.

Atatürk praying at the opening of the TBMM

Atatürk himself was Muslim. In the book Kemalizm, Laiklik ve Demokrasi (Kemalism, Laicism and Democracy), Ahmet Taner Kışlalı quotes from a speech of Atatürk that may reveal some of the reasoning behind his support of the separation of Religion and state:

"Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to [Islam]. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion" (31).

Such thoughts would seem to buttress the statement of Atatürk's biographer, Patrick Kinross, concerning how Atatürk—who prized science and rationalism as the basis of morality and philosophy—considered himself a rational believer of Islam in that Islam could complement science and rational thinking. The quote also shows how strongly Atatürk was opposed to fanaticism ("the pious"). Another speech quoted by Kışlalı relates Atatürk's thoughts on how Islam came to be in such a degenerate state:

"The foundation of our religion is very strong. The material is strong as well, but the building itself was neglected for hundreds of years. As the plaster dropped down, none thought to replace it and none felt the need to reinforce the building. Quite the contrary: many foreign elements and interpretations, as well as empty beliefs, came along and damaged it still more" (ibid.).
[edit]

Women's rights

With abiding faith in the vital importance of women in society, Atatürk launched many reforms to give Turkish women equal rights and opportunities. The new Civil Code, adopted in 1926, abolished polygamy and recognized the equal rights of women in divorce, custody, and inheritance. The entire educational system from the grade school to the university became coeducational. Atatürk greatly admired the support that the national liberation struggle received from women and praised their many contributions: "In Turkish society, women have not lagged behind men in science, scholarship, and culture. Perhaps they have even gone further ahead." He gave women the same opportunities as men, including full political rights. In the mid-1930s, 18 women, among them a villager, were elected to the national parliament. Later, Turkey had the world's first female supreme court justice.
what do you think of this guy people?
Methinks [content removed] .:raging:

:w:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
11-19-2005, 06:04 PM
I... HATE HIM!:raging: :raging: :raging:
Grrrrr... if only i had a time machine *thinking*:eek:
:w::rose::peace:
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Halima
11-21-2005, 06:43 PM
:sl: It's not sensible to attack the people, instead attack their actions. :w:
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h1jabi_sista
11-21-2005, 06:53 PM
as salam alikum,

your right sista, i'll attack his actions. ARROGANT! IGNORANT! THOUGHTLESS!

i was reading it, thinking this guy isnt muslim. Then it said he was:mad:

its such a shame, turkey has such a beautiful history mashallah. turkey WAS such a beautiful place. subhanallah:(

:w:
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montoyauk
11-22-2005, 12:15 AM
[content removed].
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

yet people in turkey think he was a hero:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

will still have to answer for his actions on day of judgement in front of allah (swt)
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Safa
11-22-2005, 01:21 AM
:sl:

Kemal Ataruk is thought of as a hero by some people because back then he helped defend Turkey against the Europeans. It was a great victory for the Turks against the non-Muslims.

But then he had to change Islamic laws. What was he thinking :-\ ...Its kind of ironic with all that's happened (after gaining independence from the British and other nations I believe) that Ataruk encouraged western enlightenment including secularism.

:w:
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imaad_udeen
11-22-2005, 02:52 AM
What a monster!

He gave women equal rights! How could he?

He allowed girls into the education system! What a tyrant!

He seperated Church and state! What a novel idea.

I respect the man, he created modern Turkey and is one of the main reasons it has been a success and maintained a strong democratic government.

I really like this quote:

"Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to [Islam]. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion"
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montoyauk
11-22-2005, 03:08 AM
seemed more like a christian than a muslim
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Bittersteel
11-22-2005, 06:15 AM
Ottomans weren't really Islamic.They had all those harems.
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Ra`eesah
11-22-2005, 07:05 AM
Assalamu'Alaykum

i would have to go with... i dont respect the man... and now hes with his creator and will be judged for what he has done.

In 1920’s mustafah kammal with the help of the british becomes the "hero" and this so-called hero cancels the authority of the most powerful system suitable for human beings
The khilafah,

-he abandon all the rulings of Allah

-He banded the Athan in Arabic

-he denied Muslim sister from obeying Allah (SWT) by abandoning the Hijab

-All Islamic calendars and holidays were canceled

-he also changes the Arabic alphabet to Latin and by doing so he made sure the next generation will be lost and have no connection to their Islamic roots as they can not read or write all the Islamic culture that was recorded

This Islamic system sent by the Creator of alameen went from the application in life to be in museums for people to go and see in turkey
now u tell me, would u still respect such a man? muslim women never needed to be libirated or be given equal rights, islam has given us muslim women lib. long before even american women were allow to vote in the 1920s. furthermore, islam is not to be seprated from the 'state' Islam as we know it is not merely a 'religion' its a way of life and when that seprated muslims through out the lands will no longer be unitied, as we see now.


( please excuse my spelling and grammatical errors its 2. am )
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Hajar
11-22-2005, 05:41 PM
He allowed girls into the education system! What a tyrant!
:sl:

So u would say the woman have rights now...Noway. Now its the otherway around they make it difficult for muslim woman to participate in the society. The woman cant wear their hijab in universities and goverment buildings etc. I think thats a stupid policy.. and this doesnt sounds like a fair system.

So how can u say that they allow girls into the education system:-\

:w:
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minaz
11-22-2005, 06:57 PM
anyone on this forum from Turkey? Cuz it's pretty much "he's a western puppet" vs "he's moving with the times"
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mahdisoldier19
11-22-2005, 08:07 PM
salam alakam

Inshallah on the day of judgement he will recieve the punishment
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minaz
11-22-2005, 09:51 PM
Inshallah on the day of judgement he will recieve the punishment
Same could be said of us all, however lets not be sadistic and pray Allah most forgiving will forgive us all - ameen
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sapphire
11-22-2005, 10:13 PM
well its in Allahs hand...but to me it sounds like he was a loony....
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MinAhlilHadeeth
11-23-2005, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by imaad_udeen
What a monster!

He gave women equal rights! How could he?

He allowed girls into the education system! What a tyrant!

He seperated Church and state! What a novel idea.

I respect the man, he created modern Turkey and is one of the main reasons it has been a success and maintained a strong democratic government.

I really like this quote:

"Religion is an important institution. A nation without religion cannot survive. Yet it is also very important to note that religion is a link between Allah and the individual believer. The brokerage of the pious cannot be permitted. Those who use religion for their own benefit are detestable. We are against such a situation and will not allow it. Those who use religion in such a manner have fooled our people; it is against just such people that we have fought and will continue to fight. Know that whatever conforms to reason, logic, and the advantages and needs of our people conforms equally to [Islam]. If our religion did not conform to reason and logic, it would not be the perfect religion, the final religion"

i can't believe what i'm seeing...
you think he liberated women but really, he's liberating their body and imprisoning their mind. women in the west think they're free, but they aren't. Islam liberated women... Islam gave women rights when they treated worse than camels! And you respect this monster because he seperated 'church form state'. Islam is a way of life, not a religion... is he so more knowledgable than Allah lord and creator of the 'Alameen that he creates laws more fit for mankind? AstaghfurAllah! If you support him you support all the munafiqeen in the history of Islam, and u certainly support those who are against Islam.
:w::rose::peace:
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sena
11-26-2005, 04:58 PM
Selamun Aleykum,


I Am So Much Respectful To Gazi Mustafa Kemal Ataturk As Being Turkish; If Beloved Ataturk Did Not Exist, Turkey Was Not Today. I See Some People Tend To Insult Him; Maybe If You Don't Like Him, But You Couldn't Any Insult Him; Some People Had Written As Monster, He Was Not Muslim And So On. Actually You Are Real Monster. He Made Lots Of Things For Us.and He Is Important For Us. You Can't Understand This. Who Can They Say? How Did He Give A Women Equal Rights. In Islam Religion Women And Men Are Equal Front Of Allah.may Allah Accept Him Paradise.how Do You Accuse Him That He Is Not Muslim. Allah Know Only This; You Can't Know This. Think Someone Is Guilthy Than You Is The Real Evil.i Am Educated In Mixid School. And I Am Practical Muslim. And Also I Am Tyring To Be More Well Muslim. I Love Him So Much And So You Can Also Accuse Me That I Am Not Muslim. Because It Is Easy To Say For You. Yeah Just You Are Real Muslim. Well Continue To Think Like This. And Also He Did'nt Forbid Athan In Arabic. In Turkey Athan Is Reading In Arabic. If You Don't Know Anything About This. Before Writing; Search Well.yes He Changed Our Alphabet And Arabic And Farsi Words Was Removed.it Is Normal. Because We Are Not Arap Or Farsi.we Are Turkish. In Your Country Are People Speaking Another Language Instead Of Your Mother Language?.

With Regards

Sena
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Bittersteel
11-26-2005, 05:16 PM
well Turkey now banned the hijab......they are now forcing women to stop wearing the hijab,which is a violation of human rights,like it ..or not.
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imaad_udeen
11-26-2005, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abrar
well Turkey now banned the hijab......they are now forcing women to stop wearing the hijab,which is a violation of human rights,like it ..or not.
The hijab was banned in university's, not in the general public, iirc.
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Bittersteel
11-26-2005, 05:29 PM
still it shows intolerance.
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Mr. Baldy
11-26-2005, 09:08 PM
theres no point on dwelling on the past, what hes done, he will be accountable for, what we do, we will be accountable for. if we let turkey stay like it is, then hes won, but if we change it to an islamic state islam has won.
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mehran
11-27-2005, 04:13 AM
we only know that atta turk destroyed the state of usmania.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
11-28-2005, 09:42 AM
There's no such thing as a 'practical muslim', you are either practicing Islam, or not. Where have these terms come from? Moderate, practical, fundamentalist, and radacalist? Surely they were created by the kuffar. Hmmm, let's not fall in to kafir terminology for Muslims.
:w::rose::peace:
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aysenil
12-03-2005, 09:38 AM
as salaamu alaikum
i am a turk. yes maybe u r right but you shouldn't say these to someone that is not alive. it is such a backbitting. Only Allah knows the judgement abt him. you say he is not a muslim how can u say like that, u opened his hearth and looked. yes someone can be a sinner. also who can say he/she dont have any sins. then how i can believe that u r real muslims...
he was a good commander. by the Grace of Allah and with the imaans of Turkish soldiers turkish army won wars. and now there is Turkey... shukurAllah
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MinAhlilHadeeth
12-06-2005, 02:49 PM
Sis aysenil, do you truly love and respect this man? How can this be when he was clearly a munafiq at best. He worked to build an un-islamic state, therefore making him an enemy of Islam. What do ou think?
:w::rose::peace:
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minaz
12-07-2005, 02:07 PM
I think Allah knows best :)
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Nawal89
12-07-2005, 10:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aysenil
as salaamu alaikum
i am a turk. yes maybe u r right but you shouldn't say these to someone that is not alive. it is such a backbitting. Only Allah knows the judgement abt him. you say he is not a muslim how can u say like that, u opened his hearth and looked. yes someone can be a sinner. also who can say he/she dont have any sins. then how i can believe that u r real muslims...
he was a good commander. by the Grace of Allah and with the imaans of Turkish soldiers turkish army won wars. and now there is Turkey... shukurAllah
He did turkey more bad than good. You shouldnt even be defending him. And no, when talking bad about a person whose faults should be known so that other people wont misunderstand about him, that is not backbiting. Kemal was not a muslim even though he claimed he was. First of all he saw that the way of the kuffar is better than Allah's word. ANd that alone is kufr.
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anthiok
12-21-2005, 03:57 PM
Dear friends;

Salaamun Aleykum to you all

As a Turk, I would also like to express my opinion on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and Turkey
.
First of all, who was Mustafa Kemal? Was he an atheist? Perhaps he was, we cannot know. It is not my concern. Every single man is responsible for his own beliefs. One of our friends here says he was a Jew. What a pity! My friend, you can never fight an idea by insulting or telling lies. If you have arguments, then use them. If not, think twice before talking. Your comment only degenerates your credibility.

Therefore, we do not have the right to talk about what Allah will decide. We should comment on him regarding his policies, not anything else.

So what did he do?

It is true that he encouraged Turkish men to wear European attire, discouraged the hijab for women. He was strongly against ruling the country by Shari'ah, he practiced laicism, abolished polygamy, granted women suffrage, oppressed the opposition by force. He also abandoned Arabic alphabet and ordered latin alphabet to be used.

I agree, part of them may not seem true now. It takes very long to analyze those. Even now, some corrupt bureaucrats, politicians and generals in Turkey still want to keep their power by using (and also degenerating) his ideas as a shield for their immoralities after 70 years from his death. But they are also against democracy, freedom and union with Europe, which contradicts Mustafa Kemal’s basic principles. Citizens of our country still suffers from them, which they call themselves so-called “kemalists”.

But please try to act in an objective manner. Who was the leader of the country that won the independence war against European imperialists, crusaders? Who devoted all his lifetime to help Turkish Republic be a developed state? Did not he try completely to transform a nation so that Turkish Republic could be a strong state in this world? And even today, is there any Muslim country which is both economically and intellectually stronger than the Republic of Turkey? Whose prospects look brighter? The Arabic world in chains of US and imperialists who cannot use their own resources that are running out day by day, getting exploited by their own rulers and dictators, or the Republic of Turkey with its democracy and economy in which citizens even look for further rights and a more dynamic economy?

I want to ask my sisters and brothers in this forum, wherever you live: Would you want to be living in a state where women are forbidden to vote, their role in social life is secondary, with limited social activities and no freedom of thought?(which are absolutely against Islam).

In no way, i am not going to claim that all practises in Turkey are correct. Forcing women or young girls attending universities and public places without hijab is nothing but violating basic human rights. Oppression on religious thoughts and the conservative government can never be accepted at all. But these are the problems that can be overcome by improving democracy. And I believe the new Turkish AKP government has achieved significant results and there will be more.

My dear brothers and sisters. We can never be as strong as Europeans, Jews or Americans unless we criticise ourselves and work as hard and as passionate as they do. Do not you grieve to see Muslim children getting killed everyday in Iraq, Palestine? I do. If we, Muslims, were both economically, politically strong and free, would we be facing such a tragedy? Is that the position what Allah wants his beloved believers to be? When will we be facing the harsh reality of our faults which led us to this disastrous status in the world?

And don’t you think some of us are very cruel in criticising Turkey?
Don’t we have something to learn from it?
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Akeyi
12-29-2016, 08:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Bittersteel
Ottomans weren't really Islamic.They had all those harems.
after ataturk which calls himself kamal which means god in some language timur is the second worst turk in history. And ottomans called himself we are the state our prophet muhammed established. And schoolars have said osmanische reich is the second best state.

And harem is not aganist islam. Any rich man could have a harem. Can you please explain to me have is this aganist islam ?

They are slave girls. Reads fetva's from 4 imam. I already explained why slavery is required in the times of war. here https://www.islamicboard.com/general...ml#post2942870

If you have any questions about ottoman empire tell me. But ottoman empire after imam ali's time second best time for the islam. What ottoman empire did war only for islam. And our prophet already said "Verily you shall conquer Constantinople. What a wonderful leader will her
leader be, and what a wonderful army will that army be!" and Armies and leaders of ottoman empire already reached compliment of our prophet s.a.v


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Born_Believer
12-29-2016, 11:02 PM
I'm not surprised to see so many anti Ataturk comments on here but one must fully study the history of the times in which he became a prominent leader.

Could the Ottoman empire have been defeated and the British and French gain the ultimate upper hand over the muslims, leading to the complete eradication of the final Khilafat without the treachery and rebellion of the Arab tribes across the middle east? The same arab tribes which now rule those parts of the world, backed by British and French money, military equipment and man power. If the arab treachery had not occurred, the sociopolitical climate would never have been created, in the area known as modern day Turkey where people would have felt hatred towards Arabs, Brits and the French.

In such a climate, a leader like Ataturk flourished, defeated the foreign occupiers of Turkey and brought his country into a new dawn. Can you blame the Turks for supporting such a leader? I can't. Can you blame him for his anti-Arab sentiment which sadly at times became anti-Islamic law too?

At the same time, Ataturk was not the secularist he is made out to be. His own faith wore the headscarf. He funded education and health care and the restoration of many Turkish towns and cities.

He was a hero for a certain demographic for a certain reason. He was not a saint but he was not a devil either.
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sister herb
12-29-2016, 11:28 PM
This thread is over 10 years old. Could you start new thread about Ottomans if it´s needed, not continue some ancient thread?
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Yahya.
12-30-2016, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Born_Believer
I'm not surprised to see so many anti Ataturk comments on here but one must fully study the history of the times in which he became a prominent leader.

Could the Ottoman empire have been defeated and the British and French gain the ultimate upper hand over the muslims, leading to the complete eradication of the final Khilafat without the treachery and rebellion of the Arab tribes across the middle east? The same arab tribes which now rule those parts of the world, backed by British and French money, military equipment and man power. If the arab treachery had not occurred, the sociopolitical climate would never have been created, in the area known as modern day Turkey where people would have felt hatred towards Arabs, Brits and the French.

In such a climate, a leader like Ataturk flourished, defeated the foreign occupiers of Turkey and brought his country into a new dawn. Can you blame the Turks for supporting such a leader? I can't. Can you blame him for his anti-Arab sentiment which sadly at times became anti-Islamic law too?

At the same time, Ataturk was not the secularist he is made out to be. His own faith wore the headscarf. He funded education and health care and the restoration of many Turkish towns and cities.

He was a hero for a certain demographic for a certain reason. He was not a saint but he was not a devil either.

Ataturk worked for the Ottoman state and was commissioned by the Sultan. He 'dismissed' the Ottoman state while he was sent to Anatolia with the order of the Sultan. There are texts of his early speeches and even some videos. He was advocating Islam and Khilafah. Even at the opening of the first turkish parliament (TBMM) in Ankara. So he intentionally deceived the people, and after gaining power he removed Islam from being the state religion. Secularism was introduced in 1937. And 1924 the Khilafah was abolished and new reforms introduced. Everyone who contradicted these were jailed/executed. Scholars had warned the Sultan that he shouldn't trust Ataturk, because he was charged of possesing illegal magazines and being member to illegal movements earlier, but the Sultan ignored these. It's said that he later cried while in exile in France when talking about these memories. Some scholars/respected people were againat the Sultan because enemy propaganda and rise of anti-state, 'nationalist' enemy movements. All these lead to..
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anatolian
12-30-2016, 09:14 PM
But yet the Sultan himself apparently sent him to Anatolia to lead the resistance
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anatolian
12-30-2016, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
This thread is over 10 years old. Could you start new thread about Ottomans if it´s needed, not continue some ancient thread?
This thread is about Atatürk not Ottomans
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aaj
12-30-2016, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
But yet the Sultan himself apparently sent him to Anatolia to lead the resistance
he was deceived as were the people of turkey. Ask any sunni scholar and they'll tell you kemal was a kuffar who destroyed the khalifah and Islam in turkey. He was the Abdullah ibn Saba of the turks.
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anatolian
12-30-2016, 09:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
he was deceived as were the people of turkey. Ask any sunni scholar and they'll tell you kemal was a kuffar who destroyed the khalifah and Islam in turkey. He was the Abdullah ibn Saba of the turks.
Atatürk might be a kafir I really dont know. He did many things contradicting Islam. But since he was known a Muslim and never denied to be, we can only assume based on his actions. But even if he was say an atheist, he was the best man for Turkish people of his time. Sultan, Khalifa and al those scholars betrayed this nation by promoting the foreign occupation. Only this man had enough courage to start a resistance. Otherwise we were going to be a colony like yours. It is true he decieved people by saying he would revise Khilafah. He didnt do it but he revised a nation. If there was no Atatürk I dont know what would all those European powers do in Turkey. Maybe we would be all christians today. Can you disprove, no. Atleast he let people live Islam.

And no the Sultan was not decieved. He definately knew only Atatürk could win such a war..
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sister herb
12-30-2016, 10:10 PM
I am thinking that when people start to claim that some politician is or was kafir, kind of claim is always a political opinion too. It´s obivious that they also disagree his political opinions and decisions. Kind of claim is then subjective, not objective.

We should know did he in his heart believed to the one God or not and judge him by this only, not because we disagree his political acts.
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 02:40 PM
ataturk is the dajjal we need to establish khalif and wait at least 1000 years then demolish it to do something worse than ataturk did. Writings of him shows that he was an atheist. He killed hundreds of thousands of people. He demoslished Sharia. Democracy is not something aganist islam as long as there is sharia. But he demolished sharia. He forced people to wear what infidels wear. People looked like infidels. And he was not a good soldier too. He betrayed in palestine. People did what he ordered because Padişah gave him an order which gives him power of Khalif. Noone done what he done to islam. He was so afraid that muslims gonna revolt he could not even sleep because of fear of coup. He changed the alphabet and tried to change language. He changed what people wear. He established a national ideology. Ottomans calls his soldiers little Muhammeds. And this army thanks to ataturk became the defender of the infidel ideologies. British people gave him greatest honor medal. He betrayed ottoman empire. He betrayed Khalif. He betrayed muslims. He betrayed islam. Because of the national ideology taught in the schools people love him. There can be only 3 -reasons why people love him.

1 People can love him because they might be thinking that he saved our country. People who loves his country may love him. But actually he was a bad soldier. Learning about war in palestine is enough. And people who loves his country is the people who loves islam. One other reason for this is the national ideology. In schools people learn to praise him.

2 People who wants to be like infidels. These people doesn't want sharia. They wanna be like infidels. Because of this they love him.

3 People who are stupid.
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anatolian
12-31-2016, 04:24 PM
You are doing the same thing. You are mixing the facts with fables. I really cannot waste my time by selecting the misinformation from facts in your above post. I assume you are Turkish. Just have honor. You cant talk about Muslimhood without honor. A turk who dishonor Mustafa Kemal is honorless
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
You are doing the same thing. You are mixing the facts with fables. I really cannot waste my time by selecting the misinformation from facts in your above post. I assume you are Turkish. Just have honor. You cant talk about Muslimhood without honor. A turk who dishonor Mustafa Kemal is honorless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7vbHkLnJds
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Yahya.
12-31-2016, 05:05 PM
Atataturk was a disbeliever. Undoubtedly. You can read his own personal letters and speeches. I didn't see any scholar or historian contradicting this. It's really obvious.

https://youtu.be/lZ-KajhkqMU

Original speech in the Turkish parliament. He says "we don't take our inspirations from books, thought to be sent from the heaven, or the unkonwn (ghayb)". Hope this is enough to 'convince' you. And this not a subjective opinion, rather a fact.
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Yahya.
12-31-2016, 05:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Atatürk might be a kafir I really dont know. He did many things contradicting Islam. But since he was known a Muslim and never denied to be, we can only assume based on his actions. But even if he was say an atheist, he was the best man for Turkish people of his time. Sultan, Khalifa and al those scholars betrayed this nation by promoting the foreign occupation. Only this man had enough courage to start a resistance. Otherwise we were going to be a colony like yours. It is true he decieved people by saying he would revise Khilafah. He didnt do it but he revised a nation. If there was no Atatürk I dont know what would all those European powers do in Turkey. Maybe we would be all christians today. Can you disprove, no. Atleast he let people live Islam.

And no the Sultan was not decieved. He definately knew only Atatürk could win such a war..
Brother, the Turkish population fought the war, not Ataturk. My grand-grandfathers died fighting the British and Greek. Some people intentionally exaggerate his role. For example there is this photo where he is lying on snow. A Turkish historian -Mustafa Armağan- recently revealed a new photo of him entering a car, i.e. they staged this photo for propaganda, to gain respect and more followers.
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sister herb
12-31-2016, 05:16 PM
And Allah only knows what he had in his heart at the moment he died. That counts. What if he said shahadah just before the last breath? Why we should argue here about the thing we can´t never be sure 100% but instead risk our own destiny while blaming someone was kafir and then he may not.

If you disagree his political opinions and acts, that´s ok. But then focus to them only. Otherwise this looks like beating a dead horse.
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
And Allah only knows what he had in his heart at the moment he died. That counts. What if he said shahadah just before the last breath? Why we should argue here about the thing we can´t never be sure 100% but instead risk our own destiny while blaming someone was kafir and then he may not.

If you disagree his political opinions and acts, that´s ok. But then focus to them only. Otherwise this looks like beating a dead horse.

HIS ACTIONS WERE INFIDEL HE PLAYED WITH MILLIONS OF MILLIONS OF FAITH.
LOOK WHAT OTTOMAN PEOPLE USED TO WEAR

I AM A FAT PERSON BUT I CAN GET LOST IN THIS CLOTHINGGG

http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php...1483209617.jpg

LOOK WHAT ATATURK FORCE THEM TO WEAR

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A..._Borsalino.jpg

A MAN WHO CANT READ CAN SAY THOSE WHO WEAR IT ARE THE INFIDELS: BECAUSE IT IS HAT OF INFIDEL

AND HE KILLED PEOPLE WHO DONT WEAR IT . SO HE MARKED PEOPLE WHO WEAR INFIDEL HAT. THERE WAS A HADITH ABOUT LIKE THIS
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anatolian
12-31-2016, 07:31 PM
If Atatürk did not start the war your names would be Yorgo not Yahya and some of you would not know who were your grand fathers ..Inshallah this is enough to understand his importance
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sister herb
12-31-2016, 07:57 PM
Brother Akeyi, I am talking about being carefull who we call unbeliever (in general levels) and you talk about hats. Hate him and hate his politics as much you ever want but try to remember as being carefull about things what only Allah can knows for sure. Unfortunately it seems to be quite common habit; when people dislike someone and specially if he is politician, they start to make kind of claims. Is it even important or has it became one way to blacken someone's reputation?

And take CAPS LOCK away, it is not needed here.
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 08:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Brother Akeyi, I am talking about being carefull who we call unbeliever (in general levels) and you talk about hats. Hate him and hate his politics as much you ever want but try to remember as being carefull about things what only Allah can knows for sure. Unfortunately it seems to be quite common habit; when people dislike someone and specially if he is politician, they start to make kind of claims. Is it even important or has it became one way to blacken someone's reputation?

And take CAPS LOCK away, it is not needed here.
HATS ARE THE SYMBOL WHY CANT YOU UNDERSTAND A MAN WHO CANT READ CAN LOOK AT YOUR FACE AND SAY IF YOU ARE MUSLIM OR NOT BUT IT IS NOT WRITTEN THERE


Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Dajjal is blind of one eye and there is written between his eyes the word" Kafir". He then spelled the word as k. f. r., which every Muslim would be able to read. ( Book 041, Number 7009 Sahih Muslim)
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
if atatürk did not start the war your names would be yorgo not yahya and some of you would not know who were your grand fathers ..inshallah this is enough to understand his importance

in.
In papers it is written that ataturk is half god in his identity it is written kamal which means god or something someone prays

ataturk is not a good soldier muslim people saved this land then ataturk killed those people wwhen they reject to leave islam . End of story
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Born_Believer
12-31-2016, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya.
Ataturk worked for the Ottoman state and was commissioned by the Sultan. He 'dismissed' the Ottoman state while he was sent to Anatolia with the order of the Sultan. There are texts of his early speeches and even some videos. He was advocating Islam and Khilafah. Even at the opening of the first turkish parliament (TBMM) in Ankara. So he intentionally deceived the people, and after gaining power he removed Islam from being the state religion. Secularism was introduced in 1937. And 1924 the Khilafah was abolished and new reforms introduced. Everyone who contradicted these were jailed/executed. Scholars had warned the Sultan that he shouldn't trust Ataturk, because he was charged of possesing illegal magazines and being member to illegal movements earlier, but the Sultan ignored these. It's said that he later cried while in exile in France when talking about these memories. Some scholars/respected people were againat the Sultan because enemy propaganda and rise of anti-state, 'nationalist' enemy movements. All these lead to..
By 1920, at the opening of the first Turkish parliament, the Ottoman Empire was already long dead.

Also, none of what you say relates to what I posted, which is that if the arab revolt had not occurred and thousands of tribe members across the Arabian peninsula had not sided with the British and the French, it is highly unlikely that the situation would have arisen where Kamal could have gained power or the British and the French would have captured the last remaining Muslim empire.

Go back and read what I said. I'm not here claiming Kamal was religious or completely secular. That's an entirely different discussion and one I do not care for because the reality of the situation is that, much like in Spain and India and elsewhere, if Muslim had not stabbed Muslim in the back, then we would not be talking about the end of Muslim rule in various parts of the world and the rise of non-Muslim powers.
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anatolian
12-31-2016, 09:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
in.
In papers it is written that ataturk is half god in his identity it is written kamal which means god or something someone prays

ataturk is not a good soldier muslim people saved this land then ataturk killed those people wwhen they reject to leave islam . End of story
Your brain death has already occured. You dont know what you are talking about but repeat only a hate propaganda. Use your own intelligence to see what Mustafa Kemal did for Turkish people if you care to be Turkish anymore. Disloyalty is not something encouraged in Islam
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 10:29 PM
How can be loyal to both infidels and islam ?

Ataturk already considered dajjal by some of the muslim comunities

he demoslished sharia he force wear women infidel clothes he wanted girls to wear what animals wear
i am loyal to osmanische reich and ataturk was a traitor to his sultan
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Akeyi
12-31-2016, 10:30 PM
Wow my friends i cant write in caps and i am posting this message to learn if i can
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cooterhein
12-31-2016, 11:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
How can be loyal to both infidels and islam ?
That could potentially happen by means of a shared national identity. That's especially likely in a peaceful secular society that's free of supremacist tendencies.
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sister herb
01-01-2017, 12:12 PM
As I see what was the influence of this person to the Turkey: His goal was to connect Turkey to the European environment and guarantee to it the economical welfare and political stability in the future. He was not entirely successful. His roots were somewhere else than the Europeans, and that is why his way to rule was more oriental. But he made the first move and without him Turkey would to be very different country than it is now. Would it be better or worse without him is the question what belongs to the Turkish people themselves, not to outsiders like me.
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Yahya.
01-01-2017, 12:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
If Atatürk did not start the war your names would be Yorgo not Yahya and some of you would not know who were your grand fathers ..Inshallah this is enough to understand his importance
That's only a speculation. If Allah wants something to happen it does, people can't change the outcome Allah already set. Muslims fought and expelled the invaders, not Ataturk. Did you hear about Sütçü İmam, Hasan Tahsin Bey and his likes? The courage and faith of the Turkish population had the greater role. Ataturk lead the defense, but still he was a traitor and deceiver for his reforms. His government also gave Moosul to the British without any force. I can't understan how you can defend such a man, who executed thousands of Muslims. And even claiming that our whole religion and culture, up to our names would be assimilated is really foolish. Such a thing happened no where. You see, Levant, North Africa and Maghrib were under British/France Mandate for years, Algeria for centuries. Are they now called Yorgo? Subhanallah. You are just repeating Turkish secularists' propaganda slogans.

It's really sad that we are discussing such a topic today, whereas there is no doubt, that someone who abolishes Allah's laws is a disbeliever. He doesn't deny to be a disbeliever. He believes in nature, in Turkish nationalism. Just look up his biographies.

@sister herb We rule upon what's apparent. He says he is no Muslim, how can we still insist and say 'maybe he accepted Islam before he died' sister? Then I'd say maybe Winston Churchill also accepted Islam later. Do you consent.
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Akeyi
01-01-2017, 12:46 PM
whole UNION OF EUROPE ESTABLISHED JUST TO BEAT OTTOMAN EMPIRE NOW TURKEY WANTED TO ENTER EU MUSLIMS IS THE REASON WHY THERE IS EU.

TURKEY INSALLAH WILL BE STATE OUR PROPHET ESTABLISHED.

ATATURK DID NOT STARTED THE WAR YAHYA IS RIGHT AND PADISAH ALREADY TRUSTED ATATURK GAVE HIM FULL POWER SENT HIM GAVE HIM MONEY BUT ATATURK WAS DISLOYAL ALSO HE IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY PALESTINE IS UNDER OCCUPY.

HERB TO HERB

TURKEI DOESNT BELONG TO TURKS IT IS ONLY TEMPORARY

LET ME TELL YOU A REAL STORY

A MODERN WOMEN WHO LOOKS LIKE WESTERN PEOPLE IN TURKEY WAS IN STREET THEN HE SAW A MAN WHO DRESSED LIKE A MUSLIM

THIS WOMAN TOLD THAT MAN THAT

IF ATATURK WOULD SEE YOU WHAT HE WOULD DO TO YOU ?!!!!!

THEN

{BUT OF COURSE THIS HAPPENS IN THE CAPITAL OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE BUT IN THE TIMES OF TURKEY REPUBLIC SO

THIS MAN SAID TO WOMAN

ATATURK IS JUST A RENTRER HOUSE OWNER IS

محمد ثانى‎

SO

TURKS ARE THE RENTRER

HOUSE OWNER ARE OTTOMANS

TURKS AND MUSLIMS ARE MINORITY IN OTTOMAN EMPIRE BUT UNDER RULE OF MUSLIMS

BECAUSE THERE SHOULD BE ONLY ONE MUSLIM STATE TO BE POOWERFUL
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anatolian
01-01-2017, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya.
That's only a speculation. If Allah wants something to happen it does, people can't change the outcome Allah already set. Muslims fought and expelled the invaders, not Ataturk. Did you hear about Sütçü İmam, Hasan Tahsin Bey and his likes? The courage and faith of the Turkish population had the greater role. Ataturk lead the defense, but still he was a traitor and deceiver for his reforms. His government also gave Moosul to the British without any force. I can't understan how you can defend such a man, who executed thousands of Muslims. And even claiming that our whole religion and culture, up to our names would be assimilated is really foolish. Such a thing happened no where. You see, Levant, North Africa and Maghrib were under British/France Mandate for years, Algeria for centuries. Are they now called Yorgo? Subhanallah. You are just repeating Turkish secularists' propaganda slogans.
So what is your stance? Even if we were invaded we would not be colonized? This is the exact foolishness. There are english names within egyptians and french names in algerians. Also the position of Turkey is different. Anatolia was the region where Christianity was born. They always want to re-cristianize this region. Also there is an anti-Turk sentiment in Europeans coming from history. They would not let us stay Muslim and have Turkish idendity. You must have some intelligence to see this. And how can you say Ataturk did not fight? Ofcourse he was not a private shoting the enemy. He was the chief commander and a military master mind. Even Lloyd George said that The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation. Even the enemy admired his skills but you people want to discredit his importance in the War of Independance. You must have some honor to acknowledge it. Alas..It is true he did not rule fully democratic and persocuted some people after the war. He had no right to abolish sharia and expell the khalifa. But still what he did for this nation is enough for me to respect him..I know Sütçü İmam quite well but you also must know Sultan Khalifa and your respectworthy scholars were watching the events when the greek soldiers raping our women...
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Akeyi
01-01-2017, 05:41 PM
OF COURSE MY FRIEND PLEASE DONT BE ANGRY TO ANATOLIAN HE IS TELLING US WHAT HE LEARNED FROM SCHOOLS BECAUSE THERE WAS NATIONAL IDEOLOGY FORCED IN OUR SCHOOLS I WILL EXPLAIN EVERY THING HE SAID PLEAZE WAIT FOR MEE


format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
So what is your stance? Even if we were invaded we would not be colonized? This is the exact foolishness. There are english names within egyptians and french names in algerians. Also the position of Turkey is different. Anatolia was the region where Christianity was born. They always want to re-cristianize this region. Also there is an anti-Turk sentiment in Europeans coming from history. They would not let us stay Muslim and have Turkish idendity. You must have some intelligence to see this. And how can you say Ataturk did not fight? Ofcourse he was not a private shoting the enemy. He was the chief commander and a military master mind. Even Lloyd George said that The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation. Even the enemy admired his skills but you people want to discredit his importance in the War of Independance. You must have some honor to acknowledge it. Alas..It is true he did not rule fully democratic and persocuted some people after the war. He had no right to abolish sharia and expell the khalifa. But still what he did for this nation is enough for me to respect him..I know Sütçü İmam quite well but you also must know Sultan Khalifa and your respectworthy scholars were watching the events when the greek soldiers raping our women...

NOW

I WILL MAKE A GREAT SERVICE AND WILL EXPLAIN EVERY SENTENCE OF ANATOLIAN

So what is your stance?
A MAN WHO KNOWS WHAT ATATURK DONE CAN NOT LOVE HIM IF HE IS A MUSLIM. A MUSLIM CAN LOVE HIM BUT IT WOULD BE WRONG. BECAUSE WE SAY A MUSLIM CANT SIN. BECAUSE IT IS WRONG. BUT WE HAVE ABILITY TO SIN. ATATURK DONE WHAT KUFR COULD not DONE SINCE OTTOMAN EMPIRE.
GREATEST ENEMY IN THE WALLS: IF WE THINK SOMEONE IS NON MUSLIM WE HAVE GUARD AGANIST HIM BUT IF WE THINK HE IS MUSLIM WE EMBRACE HIM HE CAN BACK STAB

Even if we were invaded we would not be colonized?
An ENEMY COULD NOT DO WHAT ATATURK DONE. ATATURK USED TRADITION OF JIHAD OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE TO FORCE PEOPLE TO BE WESTERN

This is the exact foolishness.

There are english names within egyptians and french names in algerians.
OTTOMAN EMPIRE WAS EMPIRE OF MUSLIMS. EVEN THOUGH MUSLIMS WERE MINORITY IT WAS MUSLIMS'S EMPIRE. OTTOMAN EMPIRE DID NOT HAVE COLONIES. AND OTTOMAN EMPIRE SAVED THE PLACES HE HOLD FROM INFIDEL COLONIZATION


Also the position of Turkey is different. Anatolia was the region where Christianity was born.
THANKS TO ATATURK IT BECAME REGION WHERE INFIDELS SAYS "TAMED MUSLIMS" THANKS TO ATATURK HE DISGRACED THIS LAND. WE MADE THIS LAND HOLY LAND. WE TAKED IT FROM CHRISTIANS.

WE MADE CONSTANTINOPLE ISTANBUL

ISTANBUL MEANS ISLAM BOL IT MEANS FULL OF ISLAM

ATATURK DISGRACED THIS LAND

They always want to re-cristianize this region.
THEY COULD NOT DONE WORSE THAN WHAT ATATURK DID SO THEY GAVE ATATURK GREATEST HONOR BADGE OF HISTORY OF BRITISH EMPIRE

Also there is an anti-Turk sentiment in Europeans coming from history.
IT IS NOT ANTI TURK IT IS ANTI MUSLIM

TURKS WERE THE SWORD OF ISLAM

Turk has to be a muslim to be a TURK. IT IS A MOTTO OF VERY FAMOUS WRITER. NFK

ALL kufr is one nation


They would not let us stay Muslim and have Turkish idendity
Too many great historicians has explained that they could not done what ataturk done. For example



IT IS AUF TÜRKİSSCH SORRY FOR THAT

You must have some intelligence to see this.
AND VICE VERSA

YOU NEED SOME FAITH TO UNDERSTAND

And how can you say Ataturk did not fight? Ofcourse he was not a private shoting the enemy. He was the chief commander and a military master mind
His sultan ordered him multiple times he didn't go. While fighting with greek he waited for greek to occupy so he would be great commander. In ww1 he betrayed palestine. Ottoman empire didn't even have money to give to soldier wage he wanted wages for the time didn't come he wanted too many things too many money. Sultan gave him gold and gave him full power bbut he betrayed islam muslims sultan ottoman empire.


Even Lloyd George said that The centuries rarely produce a genius. Look at this bad luck of ours, that great genius of our era was granted to the Turkish nation. Even the enemy admired his skills but you people want to discredit his importance in the War of Independance.
OF COURSE THEY ADMIRE HIM WHO COULD DONE SUCH A HARM TO ISLAM IN HISTORY OF HISTORY.
WAR OF INDEPENCE WAR TO CLEAR THAT LAND FROM INFIDELS. THEN ATATURK BEGAN TO PUT THEIR IDEAS BY FORCE.

You must have some honor to acknowledge it. Alas..It is true he did not rule fully democratic and persocuted some people after the war.
HE IS GREATEST DICTATOR OF ALL TIMES.



WE HATTEN SEHR SCHÖNE ALPHABET HE DEMOLISHED IT CUTTED OUR LINES FROM ISLAM QURAN AND ARABS:


He had no right to abolish sharia and expell the khalifa.
I WILL SAY YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THIS SENTENCE MY FRIEND THANKS BUT OTHERS LIKE I EXPLAINED


But still what he did for this nation is enough for me to respect him..I know Sütçü İmam quite well but you also must know Sultan Khalifa and your respectworthy scholars were watching the events when the greek soldiers raping our women..

In ottoman empire greatest punishments are those who make zina with muslim women. It is called GANCA



BUT WHAT DID ATATURK DONE HE WAITED FOR INFIDELS TO REACH ANATOLIA TO BE GREAT HERO

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Yahya.
01-01-2017, 08:11 PM
@anatolian I don't deny his mitary role. I'm just saying that deceiving the people, abolishing the Khilafah, eliminating political opponents (Muslims, especially scholars) and thus being a traitor erases all kind of respect for him in my heart.

Allah describes the believers as:
اشداء علي الكفار رحماء بينهم
Forceful against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

How can we have love, disguised in respect, for someone who fought Allah and his religion? Would you also have respect for Hitler if you were German? Because he solved the problem of unemployment and poverrty, he freed Germany from the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles, he 'liberated' German territory. He 'just' killed 6 million jews. That's his only 'little' mistake. Same with Ataturk, he 'just' executed thousands of scholars and additional Muslims who opposed his reforms. Why don't we have respect for both?

You know what the difference between these two cases are? Hitler loosed the battle, winners write the history. So everyone blamed him, now he became a measure for cruelty. But Ataturk on the other side won, and he -together with his party- developed the new curriculum in schools, and wrote the modern history of Turkey, fitting his visions. Executing those scholars and prohibiting Arabic was neccessary to improve as a society. That's it. Generations will pass, nobody will question this. Anyone who does can prepare his place in jail.
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Akeyi
01-02-2017, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya.
@anatolian I don't deny his mitary role. I'm just saying that deceiving the people, abolishing the Khilafah, eliminating political opponents (Muslims, especially scholars) and thus being a traitor erases all kind of respect for him in my heart.

Allah describes the believers as:
اشداء علي الكفار رحماء بينهم
Forceful against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

How can we have love, disguised in respect, for someone who fought Allah and his religion? Would you also have respect for Hitler if you were German? Because he solved the problem of unemployment and poverrty, he freed Germany from the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles, he 'liberated' German territory. He 'just' killed 6 million jews. That's his only 'little' mistake. Same with Ataturk, he 'just' executed thousands of scholars and additional Muslims who opposed his reforms. Why don't we have respect for both?

You know what the difference between these two cases are? Hitler loosed the battle, winners write the history. So everyone blamed him, now he became a measure for cruelty. But Ataturk on the other side won, and he -together with his party- developed the new curriculum in schools, and wrote the modern history of Turkey, fitting his visions. Executing those scholars and prohibiting Arabic was neccessary to improve as a society. That's it. Generations will pass, nobody will question this. Anyone who does can prepare his place in jail.


First

Deny him military role he was not a good military leader. Your second sentence is what i would sign under it. Second you you wrote poverrrty wrong. AND HIS GREATEST FEHLER WAS THAT NOW I CANT READ ARAB ALPHABET IT IS BAD. AND HIS SECOND GREATEST FEHLER IST FORCING PEOPLE WEAR WHAT INFIDELS WEAR.

But infidels were afraid of muslims. Because we were the source of moral so they didnot dress up like they wanted. And of course their religion didn't have effect on them much. Now if you go to the istanbul for the morning prayer you ask yourself if this place our prophet's SAV state . But if you there night you ask yourself is this state state of anti muslim state ?
Reply

Yahya.
01-02-2017, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
First

Deny him military role he was not a good military leader. Your second sentence is what i would sign under it. Second you you wrote poverrrty wrong. AND HIS GREATEST FEHLER WAS THAT NOW I CANT READ ARAB ALPHABET IT IS BAD. AND HIS SECOND GREATEST FEHLER IST FORCING PEOPLE WEAR WHAT INFIDELS WEAR.

But infidels were afraid of muslims. Because we were the source of moral so they didnot dress up like they wanted. And of course their religion didn't have effect on them much. Now if you go to the istanbul for the morning prayer you ask yourself if this place our prophet's SAV state . But if you there night you ask yourself is this state state of anti muslim state ?
Excuse me but I can't really understand what you mean, brother. You write English-German mixed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Yahya.
Executing those scholars and prohibiting Arabic was neccessary to improve as a society.
Maybe I should put this under quoatation. I wrote that as an example for my statement that people would accept what the government says because criticism on new reforms wasn't tolerated and violently suppressed.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
01-02-2017, 05:32 PM
I haven't had the chance yet to go through this whole thread, but let me say this:

Kemal Attaturk was a Kaafir and an enemy of Islaam. He hated the Deen and tried to destroy it.
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anatolian
01-02-2017, 06:55 PM
Danke Schöne ^
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
01-02-2017, 07:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Danke Schöne ^
You speak German?
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Akeyi
01-02-2017, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by huzaifah ibn adam
you speak german?
you speak german
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anatolian
01-02-2017, 08:08 PM
No I was just making fun sorry
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Akeyi
01-02-2017, 08:13 PM
my question is real too
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aaj
01-03-2017, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
I haven't had the chance yet to go through this whole thread, but let me say this:

Kemal Attaturk was a Kaafir and an enemy of Islaam. He hated the Deen and tried to destroy it.
Ask any scholar, they will tell you he was a kuffar and a secrete jew who outwardly pretended to be Muslim. Those who are defending him are doing so out of ignorance, some nationalistic loyalty or some kind of neutrality. This is not making takfeer on him, his words and his actions put him out of the fold of Islam. You will not find any scholar or anyone sound of deen deny his kufr.
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cooterhein
01-03-2017, 04:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
Ask any scholar, they will tell you he was a kuffar and a secrete jew who outwardly pretended to be Muslim. Those who are defending him are doing so out of ignorance, some nationalistic loyalty or some kind of neutrality. This is not making takfeer on him, his words and his actions put him out of the fold of Islam. You will not find any scholar or anyone sound of deen deny his kufr.
That actually is takfir. That's exactly what that is. And I will explain.

If he had openly apostasized, then he would have put himself outside the fold of Islam. But he did not do that. He set about some rapid reform efforts, but he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.

Under those circumstances, what you're doing absolutely is takfir. You stop well short of it insofar as you are merely critical of his decisions, and insofar as you claim that he was bad for Islam. But then you say he's kufr, and There it is, right there, that is takfir. Yes it is. And then you basically say "It's not takfir because I think I have good reasons for my takfir." Actually mate, you're not supposed to do this takfir thing Even If you think you have good reasons. Takfir is supposed to be something that you don't ever do, at all, period, full stop. That is literally the whole point of it being disallowed, the whole purpose is to stop you from doing what you just did.
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Akeyi
01-03-2017, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
That could potentially happen by means of a shared national identity. That's especially likely in a peaceful secular society that's free of supremacist tendencies.
secularism

means religion can not interfere state's business and state can not interfere religion.

First ataturk used state's power to hurt religion anyway he can. Killed people just because they wanted to wear things our prophet wears. SAV. Made mosques stables.

CHANGED ADHAN

CChanged alphabet which cut our connection with muslim word. Destroyed Khalif. Destroyed Sharia. Forced women to wear what infidels wear. Forbid reading quran. Forbid any religious education which lead to lack of imam's then people could not bury their deads. Uncountable number of dead imams just because they refused . It is tragic there is a song ataturk ordered a ship to go bomb a city. Of course he orders to bomb his own country. People wrote that song Dont shoot hamidiye Dont shoot we will give taxes we will wear HATS. Started village schools which forced children to go it seems like ok but children used to stay there and learn how to be acommunist . Greatest communists said that that is the dream school in my dreams. Established a national ideology which made people believe islam is bad. Also wanted to do what luther did. He wanted to make a reform in religion. He put desks in mosques and said you will speak turkish and use this desks like in churches. TURKEY BECAME THE STATE who has most STATUES. GUESS WHOSE STATUES ARE THEY ? His statues. The things he done is uncountable. Other than that he made all those things with an army calls himself we are little MUHAMMEDs SAV.

And you are saying these are not interfering to religion. All those things already aganist secularism. A man said if you blow of the ashes of this nation you will find emaan there. Other than that ISLAM ALREADY ORDERS SHARIA. SO SECULARISM IS NOT WHAT WE WANT.
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Yahya.
01-10-2017, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.
Is this sentence just to fill length? Please bring me one incident where he practiced Islam after 1924 and evidence the he once claimed to be Muslim after 1924. I don't know any historian -regardless of religion- who states that he was a Muslim.

He believed in Naturalism.
According to Mustafa Kamal ''there is nothing besides nature, people thinking otherwise are in delusion''
İhsan Akay - Atatürkçülğün İlkeleri (The principles of Ataturkism) page 133

''Nature derived humans and made them worship it. But for the humans to live on the face of earth it stipulated their sovereignty upon itself. ''
3rd May 1935 Etimesgut Air Base
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anatolian
01-10-2017, 08:08 PM
If Atatürk was such a dictator why did not he openly claim to be non-Muslim, atheist or what ever he was? I also don't think he had fear of anyone. Khilafah and Shariah was unconditional parts of Islam and he had enough "courage" to abolish these institutions. However, he had no where said that he didn't believe in Islam.

Turkish people had and I believe will have an important place in Islam and Atatürk rising up with a very critical timing saved this nation from termination. Ofcourse he did this thing with other poeple but he was the master mind. A Turkish Muslim must just respect him.
Reply

aaj
01-10-2017, 09:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
That actually is takfir. That's exactly what that is. And I will explain.

If he had openly apostasized, then he would have put himself outside the fold of Islam. But he did not do that. He set about some rapid reform efforts, but he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.

Under those circumstances, what you're doing absolutely is takfir. You stop well short of it insofar as you are merely critical of his decisions, and insofar as you claim that he was bad for Islam. But then you say he's kufr, and There it is, right there, that is takfir. Yes it is. And then you basically say "It's not takfir because I think I have good reasons for my takfir." Actually mate, you're not supposed to do this takfir thing Even If you think you have good reasons. Takfir is supposed to be something that you don't ever do, at all, period, full stop. That is literally the whole point of it being disallowed, the whole purpose is to stop you from doing what you just did.
A Christian is going to teach us what is takfir and how it is used?

I didn't say he's kufr, i said he's a kuffar who committed kufr. Know the difference between kuffar and kufr?

Regardless of what the laymen say on here, the scholars are clear on this and his actions on what he did against Islam, putting him out of Islam, is clear. End of story.
Reply

Scimitar
01-10-2017, 11:09 PM
Ataturk, doesn't even deserve a thread on this forum.

Scimi
Reply

cooterhein
01-11-2017, 03:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by aaj
Regardless of what the laymen say on here, the scholars are clear on this and his actions on what he did against Islam, putting him out of Islam, is clear. End of story.
Unless he openly apostasized (which he did not), he didn't get put out of Islam.

That is the end of the story.
Reply

Akeyi
01-11-2017, 08:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Ataturk, doesn't even deserve a thread on this forum.

Scimi

you just say this 2 this 2 this 2 too many times
then you say this is not 2

saying things which aganist each other destroys power of your words
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 12:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
If Atatürk was such a dictator why did not he openly claim to be non-Muslim, atheist or what ever he was? I also don't think he had fear of anyone. Khilafah and Shariah was unconditional parts of Islam and he had enough "courage" to abolish these institutions. However, he had no where said that he didn't believe in Islam.

Turkish people had and I believe will have an important place in Islam and Atatürk rising up with a very critical timing saved this nation from termination. Ofcourse he did this thing with other poeple but he was the master mind. A Turkish Muslim must just respect him.
Ever heard of the Donmeh? Lol surely you as a Turk would know that word.

Ataturk was a crypto-Jew

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 01:54 PM
Bro, have a shower... this is where you become rather irate over your nation, all over again.

TO be honest, it's boring the crap out of me.

Turkey, is a turkey. A bird which cannot fly. It's related to the chicken like that.

Period.

Scimi
Reply

sister herb
01-11-2017, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Turkey, is a turkey. A bird which cannot fly.
That´s why it was an easy target for the Americans whose stuffed it with Nato and other westernizing and ate it at the Thanksgiving Day?

(Got kind of association from that sentence of Scimi. :p: )
Reply

Akeyi
01-11-2017, 02:14 PM
TURKEY were and will be our prophet's state.

Turkey is name found by frankreich Ottoman empire is name ottoman empire didn't prefer. Ottoman empire is the state of our prophet sav. Since the Hz Ali. Islam didn't have a time like ottoman empire. And until the turkey becomes state of our prophet there won't be any state like ottoman empire.

ATATÜRK İS GREATEST PROVE THAT OTTOMAN EMPIRE WERE OUR PROPHET'S STATE.

AND I FORGOT TO SHARE THE BOOK I MENTIONED

http://www.erisale.com/index.jsp?loc...ent.en.204.103
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 02:19 PM
I've heard some Turkish Muslims claim that the barrier of Dhul Qarnayn was in Turkey in the Taurus mountains. Some weak justification given such as "Taurus" means two horned... when it really means Bull.

Either way, let's humour this idea and say that the barrier of Dhul Qarnayn was built in the Taurus mountains lol, well given that Turkey prides itself on the idea that it is a nation which is the "gateway to the west", we can also claim the barrier fell because Turkey is now the Gateway to the West and so, Turkey is now full of Yajuj and Majuj, right? lol

I can corner the Nationalistic Turks with curve balls they will not see coming.

But like I said, it's really boring.

Scimi
Reply

Akeyi
01-11-2017, 02:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
I've heard some Turkish Muslims claim that the barrier of Dhul Qarnayn was in Turkey in the Taurus mountains. Some weak justification given such as "Taurus" means two horned... when it really means Bull.

Either way, let's humour this idea and say that the barrier of Dhul Qarnayn was built in the Taurus mountains lol, well given that Turkey prides itself on the idea that it is a nations which is the "gateway to the west", we can also claim the barrier fell and Turkey is now full of Yajuj and Majuj too, right? lol

I can corner the Nationalistic Turks with curve balls they will not see coming.

But like I said, it's really boring.

Scimi

THE BOOK I SUGGESTED GREATEST BOOK WRITTEN IN LAST CENTURY. A DIAMOND SWORD IN THE HEART OF INFIDELISM. NOT WRITTEN BY A TURK IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANNA HEAR.

It EXPLAINS MOST IMPORTANT STUFF.

I SPECIFICLY OPENED EXACT PAGE JUST FOR YOUUU

http://www.erisale.com/index.jsp?loc...ent.en.204.103
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 02:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
THE BOOK I SUGGESTED ... [/snip]
I know all I need to know about Turkey, thank you.

You, I think, do not.

Scimi
Reply

Akeyi
01-11-2017, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
I know all I need to know about Turkey, thank you.

You, I think, do not.

Scimi
The hand of the Sufyan, one of the prominent figures of the end of time, will be pierced.
A fearsome person at the end of time will rise in the morning and on his forehead will be written ‘This is a disbeliever.
The despotic rulers of the end of time, especially the Antichrist (Dajjal), will have false paradises and hells
At the end of time no one will remain who will say: Allah! Allah
At the end of time, certain persons such as the Antichrist (Dajjal) will claim godhead and force others to prostrate before them
The dissension of the end of time will be so terrible that no one will be able to restrain themselves.
The Sufyan will be an eminent scholar; he will fall into misguidance through his learning. Numerous other scholars will follow him.



AND SUCH THINGS.

MOST OF THEM HAPPENED AND EXPlAINED



Reply

anatolian
01-11-2017, 03:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Ever heard of the Donmeh? Lol surely you as a Turk would know that word.

Ataturk was a crypto-Jew

Scimi
@Scimitar My dear brother, you have a strange jealousity with Turkish people. You show this in every thread related to Turks. I really dont know the reason. But what ever I tell you, you will just ignore it and tell us some wired stories about Turkey or Turkish people. So I cant help you sorry..
Reply

MuslimInshallah
01-11-2017, 03:12 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,

On the question on takfir (i.e. declaring someone not to be a believer), I would suggest the following for reading.


What Takes a Person Out of the Fold of Islam?

OCTOBER 26, 2011 BY EDITOR



Answered by Shaykh Faraz A. Khan
Question: What takes a person out of the fold of Islam? Commonly it is stated that “rejecting that which is known by necessity”, but what does that entail?

Answer: Assalamu alaikum warahmatullah,
I pray this finds you in the best of health and states.

The General Boundaries of Islam

Imam Tahawi states in his well-known creed, “A servant is not considered to have left his faith except by denying that which originally caused him to enter into it,” i.e., except by denying one’s very belief in the central tenets of Islamic faith, such as Allah and His attributes (His oneness, omnipotence, omniscience, etc.), His books, His angels, His prophets and messengers, the Last Day, or the Sacred Law (sharia).

In addition, because true belief entails veneration and respect, disbelief could also result from one’s cursing, disdain or contempt for the religion or the aforementioned tenets of faith.

Lastly, our scholars mention that disbelief could result from denial or contempt for anything that is “necessarily known of the religion.”

What is Necessarily Known of the Religion

This category of the faith — “what is necessarily known of the religion” — refers to certain aspects of the religion that were historically transmitted and accepted by the entire community, in a manner such that it is undeniable that those aspects are part of the religion. To deny them would therefore be akin to rejecting the Messenger himself (peace and blessings be upon him), since these things are certainly from him.

Moreover, these aspects have to be definitive (qat`i) in meaning as well, such that there was no difference of opinion among jurists as to what these aspects entail.

This category is an absolute historical reality, and it occurs by one of the following ways:

(a) incontestable multiple-chain transmission (tawatur), meaning narrations that have reached us through so many chains of transmission that it is impossible its transmitters conspired to fabricate it. This applies to every verse of the Qur’an, as well as various prophetic sunnas that reached this status.
(b) established, normative prophetic practice that is well-known (mashhur), accepted by all communities of Muslim jurists;
(c) verbalized definitive consensus (ijma) of all Companions, also related to us by incontestable multiple-chain transmission.

Examples are the ritual prayer (salat), almsgiving (zakat), fasting in Ramadan (sawm), and the pilgrimage (hajj); as well as the obligatory status of each. To deny or have contempt for any of these would entail disbelief.

In addition, the prohibited status of certain sins are also in this category. For example, murder (qatl), adultery (zina), and consuming wine (khamr) are necessarily known as prohibited by the religion. Deeming such things as religiously lawful would also entail disbelief.
[Nahlawi, Al-Durar al-Mubaha fil Hazr wal Ibaha; Bajuri/Laqqani, Hashiyat Bajuri ala Jawharat al-Tawhid]

Takfir: A Fitna of Our Times

Having said the above, it is absolutely critical for Muslims to know well that the application of the aforementioned criteria to particular cases, and the determination of whether a Muslim has in fact committed disbelief, is a function relegated only to qualified Muslim jurists of the highest caliber, not to individual Muslims.

One of the greatest tribulations (fitan) of our times is the prevalence of some Muslims deeming other Muslims as disbelievers (takfir). This is a catastrophe, whose harm is most clearly manifested in the senseless killing of innocent Muslims by extremists.

As Shaykh Abdullah bin Bayyah states in his fatwa on takfir, “The fitna of takfir is a fitna that has brought down serious casualties upon the community, since it is a blind fitna, whose causes are obscure yet whose results are utterly devastating.” [Fatwa Shaykh Bin Bayyah, Amman Message]

Our Beloved Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever accuses a fellow believer of kufr, it is as if he killed him.” [Bukhari]

As well as, “If a man says to his brother, ‘O disbeliever!’, then indeed it [the slanderous statement] returns upon one of the two.” [Bukhari, Muslim]

This hadith indicates that it is categorically prohibited to accuse one’s fellow Muslim of disbelief, as that is major slander and calumny. Allah Most High states, “And do not call one another bad names: wretched is the name of corruption after faith.” (49:11) Many commentators said this verse refers to calling one’s fellow Muslim ‘disbeliever’ (kafir) or ‘religiously corrupt’ (fasiq). [Ibn Abdul Barr, Istidhkar]

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said on his farewell pilgrimage, “Do not go back, after my demise, as [acting like you did when you were] disbelievers, some of you striking the necks of others.” He made this statement after telling the Muslims to keep silent, thereby indicating that what was to follow was of timeless wisdom and immense gravity. And in another narration, he prefaced it with “Woe to you all!” — also highlighting the seriousness of the matter.
[Bukhari, Muslim; Sharh Qadi Iyad]

Indeed, because takfir is such a grave matter, our scholars have stated, “To be mistaken in deeming a thousand disbelievers as believers is better than to be mistaken in deeming a single believer a disbeliever.”

Imam Ghazali, a master jurist, theologian and saint of our tradition, explains at length that most takfir occurs due to fanaticism and is hence utterly baseless. He summarizes the matter as follows:

“It is established that a Muslim’s protected status and inviolability (`isma) is certainly derived from his statement ‘La ilaha illa Allah.’ This, then, cannot be repelled except with that which is also at the level of certainty.” [Ghazali, Iqtisad fil I`tiqad; Fatwa Shaykh Bin Bayyah, Amman Message]

That is to say, a doubtful issue that might suggest disbelief cannot outweigh the original certainty of a Muslim’s belief — only an act or statement of certain disbelief could do so. And this determination is not the function of the general laity of Muslims, but rather qualified jurists and theologians alone.

And Allah knows best.

wassalam
Faraz

http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/10/26/what-takes-a-person-out-of-the-fold-of-islam/

Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
01-11-2017, 03:19 PM
Craziness starting to stream out like all the carbonation from a cheap fizz pop cooldrink...

Things to understand:

1) Attaturk was a Kaafir, and he was a Jew. This was proven in another thread a couple of months ago. Clear-cut statements of Attaturk were presented. That's besides the fact that he removed Islaam from Turkey. If Attaturk is a Muslim, so is Iblees. Their level of Islaam is the same.

2) Turkey is Daar-ul-Kufr. It is not the "State" of Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم. It never was. During the time of the old Uthmaani Sultaans, it was good. But since the 1700s, it's been devoid of Islaam.

3) Why is a Christian speaking on Takfeer? Doesn't even know what the term means. Everyone speaks on everything these days.

4) Nationalism is against Islaam. Whether it is Arab nationalism (like the Kufr of the "Ba`th Party"), or Indian nationalism, or Turkish nationalism, or any other nationalism. Never become nationalistic.
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
01-11-2017, 03:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by cooterhein
That actually is takfir. That's exactly what that is. And I will explain.

If he had openly apostasized, then he would have put himself outside the fold of Islam. But he did not do that. He set about some rapid reform efforts, but he continued to practice Islam and always claimed to be a Muslim.

Under those circumstances, what you're doing absolutely is takfir. You stop well short of it insofar as you are merely critical of his decisions, and insofar as you claim that he was bad for Islam. But then you say he's kufr, and There it is, right there, that is takfir. Yes it is. And then you basically say "It's not takfir because I think I have good reasons for my takfir." Actually mate, you're not supposed to do this takfir thing Even If you think you have good reasons. Takfir is supposed to be something that you don't ever do, at all, period, full stop. That is literally the whole point of it being disallowed, the whole purpose is to stop you from doing what you just did.
The world is becoming stranger every day. Now even Christians are giving "Fataawaa" and speaking in matters of Takfeer. What next?
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 03:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
@Scimitar My dear brother, you have a strange jealousity with Turkish people. You show this in every thread related to Turks. I really dont know the reason. But what ever I tell you, you will just ignore it and tell us some wired stories about Turkey or Turkish people. So I cant help you sorry..
Bro, in case you didn't notice over the past five years, it's not just Turkey, but all Muslim nations today which I ave massive issues with.

Instead of helping me, (and believe me, I do not require it) help yourself to understand the state this ummah really is in.

And notice how the threads about Turkey are always posted here by who? Turks.

Notica also that your overly secular race is "proud" of itself while it remains a totally failed compromise of Muslim values... bro, I see a better Islam here in the UK than what your nation has in Turkey, and i'm going of comparisons between the cities of London and Istanbul.

By that measurable standard, you will easily see that the British Muslims who are a minority in the UK, make up most of this forums membership - while your own so called very Muslim nation, full of Muslims, only has a limited minority here on Islamicboard. Where are the rest of you? Drinking EFES beer?

Turks talk a big game, but when I investigate your history, I see no difference to any other history. The pride Turks have is misplaced and they are totally ignorant of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon in which he killed the concept of national pride and gave to us, the understanding that there is no conglomerate of Muslim nations, just the concept of Ummah - but meanwhile in Turkey, lol...

... help your own Turkish brothers first, they are drinking way too much haraam and do not even understand what is halal for them anymore.

Scimi
Reply

Huzaifah ibn Adam
01-11-2017, 04:14 PM
That's actually a fact. There's more much Islaam in the UK than there is in Turkey. I advise the Turkish brothers not to let nationalism get in the way of accepting the Haqq. If a person comes along and says that, you know what, there is more Islaam to be found in the UK than there is to be found in some Arab countries, I will be the first to accept that. I am Syrian, but will never claim that the Syrians are better than Any other race, because such a statement is absolute Baatil. All races are equal. To Allaah Ta`aalaa, the best people are those who have the most Taqwaa, not the one who belongs to this race or that race, or a particular tribe. That is Jaahiliyyah. Nationalism is Jaahiliyyah. I myself am saying that Syria is currently Daar-ul-Kufr and Daar-ul-Harb, because it is ruled by a Taaghoot Kaafir, "Bashar al-Kalb". I am not going to claim that Syria is Daar-ul-Islaam just because I am from Syria, nor am I going to deny any of the many things wrong with present-day Syria and the Syrian masses just because I am a Syrian as well.

Enter into Islaam fully. Once you have entered into Islaam fully, you leave all nationalism behind. You no longer worry about "race" and "nationality"; it's not important. What is important is whether a person is a Muslim or a Kaafir. Abu Mus`ab az-Zarqaawi - Arab, Jordanian - used to say:

الأمريكي المسلم أخونا الحبيب, والعربي الكافر عدونا البغيض, ولو تشاركنا وإياه في رحم واحدة

"The American who is a Muslim is our beloved brother, and the Arab who is a Kaafir is our hated enemy, even if we and him (i.e. this Arab) had shared the same womb."

This is the mindset to have. Once you have adopted this mindset, the Jaahili nationalism will disappear from your heart.

The fact is, we can have a million debates about Attaturk al-Kaafir, and we could post hundreds of proofs right here and now that Attaturk was not a Muslim, that he was an enemy of Islaam, that he tried to eradicate Islaam, that he was a Crypto-Jew, etc. but the Turkish brothers will not - إلا ما شاء الله - accept, because this isn't an issue of Attaturk; it's an issue of nationalism. Once a person's heart drinks to satiation from the water of nationalism, the eyes become blind and the ears become deaf (to the Haqq). Nationalism is a sickness in and of itself. Until the sickness of nationalism has been treated, those who are in support of Attaturk will not cease to support him, even if a whole world full of proofs get presented in front of them.

والسلام
Reply

anatolian
01-11-2017, 04:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Bro, in case you didn't notice over the past five years, it's not just Turkey, but all Muslim nations today which I ave massive issues with.
Maybe I don't know. I have yet to see you critisizing another Muslim nation here. And you don't critisize Turks/Turkey you just attack. You are trying to discredit Turks/Turkey in the eyes of readers.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Instead of helping me, (and believe me, I do not require it) help yourself to understand the state this ummah really is in.
The state this ummah is in today is worse than ever. So what? Your "over critization" of Turks/Turkey will not change it. Do your best to educate people you reach.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
And notice how the threads about Turkey are always posted here by who? Turks.
Even if this was the case it would not be a wired thing but well no, most of the threads about Turkey are created by people who are not Turkish in this forum. Like this one. Actually there are very few Turks in that forum.


format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Notica also that your overly secular race is "proud" of itself while it remains a totally failed compromise of Muslim values... bro, I see a better Islam here in the UK than what your nation has in Turkey, and i'm going of comparisons between the cities of London and Istanbul.
The ones who are proud of their race are racist people. However, there is a slight difference between racism and nationalism. There is nationalism in most of the religious Turkish people and it is all about the historical Turkish service to Islam, which you don't accept. There is not racism in this kind of nationalism. And there is a whole irreligious (which you call secular) Turkish people on the other hand. You are blaming the other group with the behaviour of another group of people. You are just mixing the things...

If you have a better Islam in London than we have in Istanbul what happy to you!..Be thankful to Allah instead of humilating Turkish people.

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
By that measurable standard, you will easily see that the British Muslims who are a minority in the UK, make up most of this forums membership - while your own so called very Muslim nation, full of Muslims, only has a limited minority here on Islamicboard. Where are the rest of you? Drinking EFES beer?
Have you ever realized that this is an English speaking forum? I can only encourage to learn Turkish and join Turkish speaking forums...

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Turks talk a big game, but when I investigate your history, I see no difference to any other history. The pride Turks have is misplaced and they are totally ignorant of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon in which he killed the concept of national pride and gave to us, the understanding that there is no conglomerate of Muslim nations, just the concept of Ummah - but meanwhile in Turkey, lol...
You may have a right point on this..But it has some reasons


format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
... help your own Turkish brothers first, they are drinking way too much haraam and do not even understand what is halal for them anymore.

Scimi
I wanna help everyone regardless of his/her nation :)
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 05:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Maybe I don't know. I have yet to see you critisizing another Muslim nation here. And you don't critisize Turks/Turkey you just attack. You are trying to discredit Turks/Turkey in the eyes of readers.
I just put a video up of the House of Saud which was removed by the mods lol and that video wasn't exactly speaking highly of them.

In the past, countless threads and posts I have made against the leaders of Muslim nations and their politics being in direct contradiction of Islamic values have also gone missing.

But when it comes to Turkey, somehow the forum mods don't do anything.

So, yeah, maybe you "don't know".

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
The state this ummah is in today is worse than ever. So what? Your "over critization" of Turks/Turkey will not change it. Do your best to educate people you reach.
Brother Anatolian, If I truly got started, it would be very educational and the Turks would have to swallow hard, because what they will chew will not taste nice.

History is history, you can't change it - however - I can tell it.

And you cannot debunk it.

Want me to teach the members here the inglorious past of the Ottomans?

Sure - but give me time because this subject is soooo damn boring for me, that I will have to allocate time for it.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Even if this was the case it would not be a wired thing but well no, most of the threads about Turkey are created by people who are not Turkish in this forum. Like this one. Actually there are very few Turks in that forum.
Because you say so? I've noticed a ridiculous number of threads posted by fly by Turkish members who will rant about how great Turkey is, citing hadeeth which are so dodgy and have no reference regarding Mahdi will be Turkish and rubbish like this, and worse - then get cornered by members who actually know what they are talking about - resulting in those fly by Turkish members disappearing from this forum with their tales tucked firmly between their legs.


format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
The ones who are proud of their race are racist people. However, there is a slight difference between racism and nationalism. There is nationalism in most of the religious Turkish people and it is all about the historical Turkish service to Islam, which you don't accept. There is not racism in this kind of nationalism. And there is a whole irreligious (which you call secular) Turkish people on the other hand. You are blaming the other group with the behaviour of another group of people. You are just mixing the things...
Both, racism and nationalism are idiotic.

And Turks, as you just admitted, suffer from both.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
you have a better Islam in London than we have in Istanbul what happy to you!..Be thankful to Allah instead of humilating Turkish people.
I had no idea pointing out how Islam in London is actually a lot more in context to the practice and understanding of it than what Turks follow, would be soooo offensive lol. I pointed out an observation from my experience and you think this is me humiliating Turks?

Bro, have you lost sight of your faculty of reason? Have you not seen how those fly by nationalistic, egotistic and racist Turks constantly embarrass themselves here on this forum?

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Have you ever realized that this is an English speaking forum? I can only encourage to learn Turkish and join Turkish speaking forums...
Riiiight (sarcasm) the nation which calls itself "The Gateway to the West" - has problems learning English, the second most spoken language in the world and the Wests prime tongue of choice. Brilliant. Bro, you done walked into that one also.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
You may have a right point on this..But it has some reasons
Of course I am right, you don't have to go far to find the proof - it's right here on this forum.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
I wanna help everyone regardless of his/her nation :)
Ameen to that.

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
The fact is, we can have a million debates about Attaturk al-Kaafir, and we could post hundreds of proofs right here and now that Attaturk was not a Muslim, that he was an enemy of Islaam, that he tried to eradicate Islaam, that he was a Crypto-Jew, etc. but the Turkish brothers will not - إلا ما شاء الله - accept, because this isn't an issue of Attaturk; it's an issue of nationalism.
Nationalism, in its purest form leads to National Socialist movements - and we know where that led Germany. To the 3rd Reich. Bloody heck.

History is a well oiled machine, and those cogs, they turn in "circles" and thus, history repeats itself, either to a microcosm or a macrocosm example.

In the case of the Turks, their fratricide of Christian boys was wholly reminiscent in idea to the subjugation of Jews in Germany. The fratricide card was one which saw they Christian nobles of Turkey, subjugated through fear. Same as with the Jews who were subjugated through the very same fear mechanic in Nazi Germany. Thank Allah that the Ottoman empire was destroyed simply because I believe that had it been allowed to continue, the next major genocide in the world after WW2 would have been that which the Ottomans would have fomented. And Allah knows best


format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
Once a person's heart drinks to satiation from the water of nationalism, the eyes become blind and the ears become deaf (to the Haqq). Nationalism is a sickness in and of itself. Until the sickness of nationalism has been treated, those who are in support of Attaturk will not cease to support him, even if a whole world full of proofs get presented in front of them.
This is so beautifully on point, that the bitter sweetness of its truth is one which takes an immediate affect on the one who seeks truth.

Scimi
Reply

anatolian
01-11-2017, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
That's actually a fact. There's more much Islaam in the UK than there is in Turkey. I advise the Turkish brothers not to let nationalism get in the way of accepting the Haqq.
Salam Aleykum. No one claims that there is more Islam in Turkey than there is in UK. Claiming such a thing would be arrogance. We musn't be proud of the degree of our Muslimhood, what ever it is. And since there is a huge number of Muslims in the UK it is quite possible. But it is valid vice versa..No one has right to claim that there is more Islam in UK than there is in Turkey. Arrogance what is wrong, not nationalism.

I am a Turkish nationalist. Every one has right to be one. There is nothing wrong with nationalism as long as you don't put it in front of your Muslimhood. Also there is an Islamic motivation in my nationalism thanks to my anccestors. My advocating of Mustafa Kemal is not about his Turkishness. It is all about his service to my nation which is a good deed in Islam. My respect to Mustafa Kemal comes from the Islamic values not from secular nationalistic ideals.
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 06:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Salam Aleykum. No one claims that there is more Islam in Turkey than there is in UK. Claiming such a thing would be arrogance. We musn't be proud of the degree of our Muslimhood, what ever it is. And since there is a huge number of Muslims in the UK it is quite possible. But it is valid vice versa..No one has right to claim that there is more Islam in UK than there is in Turkey. Arrogance what is wrong, not nationalism.
Actually, they do claim this.

format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
I am a Turkish nationalist. Every one has right to be one. There is nothing wrong with nationalism as long as you don't put it in front of your Muslimhood. Also there is an Islamic motivation in my nationalism thanks to my anccestors. My advocating of Mustafa Kemal is not about his Turkishness. It is all about his service to my nation which is a good deed in Islam. My respect to Mustafa Kemal comes from the Islamic values not from secular nationalistic ideals.
Then by definition you are not following the Sunnah advice of yours and my prophet Muhammad pbuh.

There is no such thing as nationalism in Islam, only the Ummah, and Turkey is not reflective of "Ummah" when it claims "national pride".

Let's also throw in the fact that Turkey is the most Secular Muslim nation on the planet... and it's obvious why you would be a patriot now isn't it? To be anything else is just not so PC is it?

So basically, you are compromising your belief in Ummah by arrogantly (and rather ignorantly) claiming that you are Turkish Nationalist.

Bro, this is how easy it is to corner Turks. You guys do not have the power of debate because you do not know your Islam as well as you claim you do.

Your race of people have constantly made mince meat out of Islam and its practice... must I now once again repeat my experience of Jummah salaat in the Blue Mosque? What a farce that was. Sheesh.

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
01-11-2017, 06:22 PM



How a Nation which calls itself the Pride of Islam can produce Alcoholic Beer is beyond my ability to justify.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efes_Beverage_Group

In addition to its flagship Pilsener, Efes also produces several other beers, including Efes Dark (double-roasted malt lager with 6.5% alcohol and hints of caramel), Efes Light (a 122.7-calorie and 3.0% ABV take on the original), Efes Xtra (a hoppier, 7.5% ABV lager), Efes Ice (a softer, more aromatic, ice-brewed version with 4.2% alcohol), and Efes Dark Brown (a 6.1% ABV double-roasted malt lager with a distinct coffee and chocolate bouquet). All Efes products sold in Turkey use high fructose corn syrup.[citation needed]
Other brands under the Efes Beverage Group are Gusta (5.0% ABV), the company's wheat beer brand; Mariachi, under which the lime or agave-flavored beers Mariachi (4.2% ABV) and Mariachi Black (6.0% ABV) are produced; Marmara, under which the strong-beers Marmara Kırmızı (6.1% ABV) and Marmara Gold (4.1% ABV) are produced.

____ ____ ____

A Muslim Nation would never allow such a thing. But there's Turkey, the exception to the rules - always the exception to the rules. Damn.

Scimi
Reply

anatolian
01-11-2017, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
I just put a video up of the House of Saud which was removed by the mods lol and that video wasn't exactly speaking highly of them.

In the past, countless threads and posts I have made against the leaders of Muslim nations and their politics being in direct contradiction of Islamic values have also gone missing.

But when it comes to Turkey, somehow the forum mods don't do anything.
Maybe the mods have problems with Turkey like you.

And your biggest problem is you think that you know so much about Turkey and Turkish people but yet you haven't even lived in Turkey any while. You have just visited Istanbul a long time ago and you think that you have achieved enough infornmation about these people. How can this be possible? I clearly understand what sort of people you are reffering to when you blame them with nonsense and I agree you on this. But there are much much more people in Turkey than you know and most of them have quite a healthy understanding of Turkish nationalism. The real Turkish nationalist do not sees him/herself superior or others inferior but they see themselves the members of the Ummah. The real Turkish nationalists feel themselves responsible of other Muslims and be with them as much as they can. The real Turkish nationalist knows that Allah has bestowen a role on this nation and acts in the responsibility of it which is Islam's itself...I just encourage you to know more Turks..That will be beneficial to you..
Reply

sister herb
01-11-2017, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
The real Turkish nationalist knows that Allah has bestowen a role on this nation and acts in the responsibility of it which is Islam's itself
How? I mean how they know this? Is it said in some hadith or what?
Reply

anatolian
01-11-2017, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
How? I mean how they know this? Is it said in some hadith or what?
Yes there are Hadith about Turks. Also history proves itself.
Reply

sister herb
01-11-2017, 08:14 PM
Could someone post this hadith to here?
Reply

cooterhein
01-13-2017, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Huzaifah ibn Adam
Craziness starting to stream out like all the carbonation from a cheap fizz pop cooldrink...

Things to understand:

1) Attaturk was a Kaafir, and he was a Jew. This was proven in another thread a couple of months ago. Clear-cut statements of Attaturk were presented. That's besides the fact that he removed Islaam from Turkey. If Attaturk is a Muslim, so is Iblees. Their level of Islaam is the same.
I like that description. It made me realize I'm thirsty.

Quick question, as I'm not entirely familiar with the comparison you're making here- did Iblees, at any point in time, recite the shahada and genuinely believe it while he was saying it? And was Iblees born to Muslim parents and raised in a Muslim family?

And here's a thing on Quora where someone asked if he was a Jew. https://www.quora.com/Was-Kemal-Ataturk-Jewish

2) Turkey is Daar-ul-Kufr. It is not the "State" of Rasoolullaah صلى الله عليه وسلم. It never was. During the time of the old Uthmaani Sultaans, it was good. But since the 1700s, it's been devoid of Islaam.
On the distinction between Dar-al-Islam, Dar al Harb, Dar al Hudna, and Dar al Kufr, this is a particular source that I'm working with here. http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-Eas...r-al-islam.htm

Do you have any opinions that you want to share concerning what's laid out in this source?

3) Why is a Christian speaking on Takfeer? Doesn't even know what the term means. Everyone speaks on everything these days.
Ah, but this Christian has the Internet. It's not that hard to find out what Takfir is. Notable examples of actual Takfir within Islam proper have involved Abu Bakr and certain Arab tribes that refused to pay zakat (although he didn't use the word Takfir and his comments may have been a description of general fact rather than a judgment against individuals). Ibn Taymiyyah ruled against certain Mongols in the 14th century (although he's followed more specifically by modern Salafis) and al-Wahhab cited him in the course of going after certain self-professed Muslims, including Sufis. Ahmadiyya has found itself on the business end of Takfir rulings, also the Zikri in Balochistan (Pakistan sure has gotten some mileage out of this), and Salman Rushdie has been a notable individual example....

Other than that though, you've got quite a few less-good examples from outside of mainstream Islam. The Khawarjis used it as justification for much violence against the Umayyad caliphate. And in most example since 1950, it's been a central tenet of militant groups in Egypt, Algeria, Persia, and elsewhere that is used to justify violence against people who call themselves Muslims (and sometimes it's violence against Muslims who are believed to be Muslims by literally everyone except the militants that have declared Takfir). The Persian examples are pretty obvious, I'm sure you know all about the Khawarjis, the actions (well....attempted actions) of Sayyid Qutb give you an idea about Egypt, and the horrific actions of the GIA during the Algerian civil war were officially justified in writing (and signed by Zouabri) on the basis of Takfir.

This is the main reason why it's so important to keep Takfir under control, and as a general rule to take people at their word when they say they're Muslims. Their Muslim identity is what protects them from violence by other Muslims. And the main reason for declaring Takfir is to open up the possibility of violence against those people. It's not the same thing as plotting or inciting violence, but I'll tell you exactly what it is- by declaring Takfir, you're literally saying this person or people-group is fair game. Anyone who wants to, go ahead, and I won't feel bad for them. They aren't on my team, they are a part of Dar al Kafr. I mean, that's exactly what you've said so far- you are referring to Turkey as Dar al Kafr.

Would you be interested in changing that label to Dar al Amn? Go ahead an build a house of safety around them, would that be all right with you? Dar al Hudna would also be preferable to what you've described so far, but it really seems like Dar al Harb (literally "house of war," often used interchangeably with Dar al Kufr) is exactly the thing that you're driving at. That is what you've said so far. I'll go ahead and give you ample opportunity to say something different if you mean something different, but I have a feeling you'll double down on this.

See, this is why true authoritative consensus and proper representation of the ummah as a whole is so important for this to be properly brought off. You can't just individually declare this kind of thing on your own or in small groups.

4) Nationalism is against Islaam. Whether it is Arab nationalism (like the Kufr of the "Ba`th Party"), or Indian nationalism, or Turkish nationalism, or any other nationalism. Never become nationalistic.
I'll take that as one type of opinion that can come out of Islam. Do you mind if I ask which scholars are your main sources for reaching this conclusion? Is this specific to Salafism?
Reply

Akeyi
01-13-2017, 02:00 PM
This thread became trash what i wrote worth diamonds but noone wants to come and see some garbage because of this my diamonds does not deserve here i wil find some museum for my diamonds i hope. But not now

Now i will write my defence.
Reply

Mustafa16
01-14-2017, 02:09 AM
I don't think it's relevant whether or not Kemal Ataturk was a kaafir. I think what matters is the oppression or lack thereof he put the Muslims through, in preventing them from practicing their religion.
Reply

Akeyi
01-15-2017, 02:59 PM
This thread is trash there is too much trash here so what i would write which has diamond value is worthless.

Noone wants to go to garbage place to find a diamond.

And a diamond is worthless for a man who is going to die if can't find food. Or for a man who doesnt know what diamond is.

First learn islam.

There are some rules in islam.

Islam is not a religion just about afterlife.

There are rules for this life too. Which should order our this life. And praying fasting going to hac etc. Is one side of the things we should do there is another side too.

There might be religion which has only one side but islam is not like that.

By doing one side we fight with somethings. Pleasure nefs etc. By doing other side we are doing something else . Fighting with pleasures etc.
Reply

Scimitar
01-15-2017, 03:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
Maybe the mods have problems with Turkey like you.

And your biggest problem is you think that you know so much about Turkey and Turkish people but yet you haven't even lived in Turkey any while. You have just visited Istanbul a long time ago and you think that you have achieved enough infornmation about these people. How can this be possible? I clearly understand what sort of people you are reffering to when you blame them with nonsense and I agree you on this. But there are much much more people in Turkey than you know and most of them have quite a healthy understanding of Turkish nationalism. The real Turkish nationalist do not sees him/herself superior or others inferior but they see themselves the members of the Ummah. The real Turkish nationalists feel themselves responsible of other Muslims and be with them as much as they can. The real Turkish nationalist knows that Allah has bestowen a role on this nation and acts in the responsibility of it which is Islam's itself...I just encourage you to know more Turks..That will be beneficial to you..

Bro,

Calm down.

Turkish people live here in the UK too - and are total failures when it comes to Islam. They drink more alcohol and do more sin than any Muslim minority in the UK.

Sure, there will be Turks inside of Turkey who are more in tune with the concept of Ummah, but your nations secularist policy, it's degradation if Islam and Muslims, the Turkish Alcoholic Beer EFES, Fratricide, and a whole host of other social diseases have taken FIRM ROOT within Turkey.

You - and I - both know it.

Problem with you Anatolian is that you make blanket statements such as this:

format_quote Originally Posted by Anatolian
The real Turkish nationalist knows that Allah has bestowen a role on this nation and acts in the responsibility of it which is Islam's itself
Sister Herb has asked you for the hadeeth reference.

I know you won't be able to produce it. Hence, you have not done so yet.

And now this thread has gone awry for you and Akeyi among other Turkish Nationalists, Akeyi is claiming that -

format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
This thread is trash
Without trying to offend, your opinions are what have taken this thread into the trash pile.

You have not rebutted my claims on the previous page at all.

I think I necro posted three posts in succession which you and your Turkish National Friends have not been able to refute... and now,
format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
This thread is trash
Rather conveniently lol

It's easy to see your embarrassment.

Next time, come prepared.

Scimi
Reply

Akeyi
01-15-2017, 03:43 PM
THERE TOO MANY THINGS TO SAY FIRST

IF I SAY BAD MAN IS BAD. NO ONE SAY NOTHING. BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THIS MAN WERE BAD.

BUT IF SAY GOOD MAN IS BAD. EVERYONE SAYS woowowowowowowowowo. BECAUSE IT IS A IMPORTANT SPEECH.

IF A BEGGAR GOES BANKRUPT NOONE CARES. IF RICH JEWS GO BANKRUPT EVERYONE LIKE owowowoowowowwo.

SO THIS THREAD WERE DIAMOND WITH MY ANSWERS BUT WHEN SOME PEOPLE MADE IT TRASH IT BECAME SOMETHING FALLING.

YOU CANT FALL IF YOU ARE NOT IN HIGHER GROUND.

I HOPE I MADE MYSELF CLEAR:
Reply

Scimitar
01-15-2017, 03:56 PM
Nope, you just sound like a fool with a loose point he doesn't know how to make.

Scimi
Reply

anatolian
01-15-2017, 04:06 PM
@Scimitar . I am not the one who is fussy but it is you who are looking always for a flaw to blame Turks with. You even distort the history and combine irrelevant things and serve people to discredict Turkish people. You are the one who attacks not me. So it is you who needs to be calm down not me. I am quite calm.

I have never claimed that Turkish people are the most religous Muslim people and yet the Turkish minority living in Uk do not give any clue on this matter since there is not a large Turkish population over there. The Turkish community in UK have a more modernized/westernized root. However, if you go to the continental Europe forexample Germany, France or Holland you will see a larger in number and more religous Turkish community. Still same problem. You dont know so much about Turkish people and use the bad examples to discredit Turks. You have a negative obsession about Turks whose reason I dont know.

I am planning to create a thread dedicated to the Turkish role in Islam but it requires time to collect all information. Just dont be happy for not answering it yet ;)
Reply

Akeyi
01-15-2017, 04:10 PM
I will end all arguments here with a motto of a turkish writer my friends .


türk has to be a muslim to be a türk.
a famous writer said that i translated myself it also shows i have ability to translate. But that is another subject because i dont like to have pride: But now you can say why did you mention it in first place ?

let me explain maybe i made a mistake while translating because translations can hurt the meaning my friends
Reply

Scimitar
01-15-2017, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by anatolian
@Scimitar...[/snip]

You have not dealt with my claims in my previous post to you, namely: your nation's secularist policy, it's degradation if Islam and Muslims, the Turkish Alcoholic Beer EFES, Fratricide, and a whole host of other social diseases have taken FIRM ROOT within Turkey.

Until you can contextualise your nations history to understand how it got to be such a failed Islamic nation when it comes to the above and then respond to this, I feel you will be wasting both your and my time.

Also, Sister Herb is waiting for an hadeeth:

Where is it?

Coz I'm also waiting.

Ad hominem is taking this topic into muddy waters, I'd rather bring it back - show me the hadeeth.

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
01-15-2017, 05:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akeyi
I will end all arguments here with a motto of a turkish writer my friends .
türk has to be a muslim to be a türk.
I think you make more problems with such statement. Was Kemal Ataturk a Turk? while being atheist? Or Crypto Jew?

LOL

Bro, grow some grey matter in that cranium, your logic is embarrassing you.

Scimi
Reply

Akeyi
01-15-2017, 05:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by scimitar
i think you make more problems with such statement. Was kemal ataturk a turk? While being atheist? Or crypto jew?

Lol

bro, grow some grey matter in that cranium, your logic is embarrassing you.

Scimi

süfyan

süfyan is the dejjal of islam. Ataturk came in ottoman empire. So this shows us that ottoman empire was state of our prophet sav.
Reply

anatolian
01-15-2017, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
You have not dealt with my claims in my previous post to you, namely: your nation's secularist policy, it's degradation if Islam and Muslims, the Turkish Alcoholic Beer EFES, Fratricide, and a whole host of other social diseases have taken FIRM ROOT within Turkey.

Until you can contextualise your nations history to understand how it got to be such a failed Islamic nation when it comes to the above and then respond to this, I feel you will be wasting both your and my time.
I would like to give you a lecture on this topic but I also think that I only waste my time in explaining the things to you on this matter-because you have a negative obsession with Turks and will always seek to find another subject to attack-I will briefely tell you that Turks, in their struggle against the European Christendom, got physically closer to them each time and were effected from their philosophies. As a result of this they got corrupted religiously in time. So we have today's less religious Turkish people. But what you fail to understand is that other Muslim nations are not also like angels and there are plenty of Turkish people who are still religious.

Your putting "fratricide" and "efes beers" which are tottally irrelevant subjects in the same sentence repeatedly and adding "a whole lot of other social diseases"-which I have no idea what they are-just show your dishonesty.

Let me explain it again. My claim of Turkish nationalism do not necessarily tell you that we Turkish people are "the best creatures of Allah". My claim is that Turks served and will continue to serve Islam and a nationalist Muslim Turk must know his/her mission regarding this and live accordingly which is "Islam's itself". This kind of nationalism do not seperate Turkish people from the ummah as you have such an opinion but indeed promote brotherhood. Today if you go to Bosnia, Circassia, Algeria etc. they will all remmeber Turkish people with good memories. You are just ignorant to see this. Actually what you do is an anti-Turk counter nationalism..

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Also, Sister Herb is waiting for an hadeeth:

Where is it?

Coz I'm also waiting.

Ad hominem is taking this topic into muddy waters, I'd rather bring it back - show me the hadeeth.

Scimi
I think she asked it to the audience not directly to me. You or another one can answer her until I create my thread inshallah. Because there are many hadith nnot only one..
Reply

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