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mikeengland

11-26-2005, 06:41 PM

In the Qur’an Muhammad claims only to be a messenger or warner to the people.

Sura 34:28 "And we have not sent you (O Mohammed) except as a giver of glad tidings and a Warner to all people."

Muhammad never claimed that through following him you would go to heaven, in fact when challenged he had this to say about himself not being saved.

Sura 46:9 Say: "I am not an innovation among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear."

Muhammad refused to perform any miracles as he could not!

Sura 29:50 And they say, `Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, `The Signs are with ALLAH, and I am but a plain warner,'

Muhammad used the Bible to make a point about his teaching, this very claim gives evidence by Muhammad of the truth of the Bible.

Sura 46:10 Say: "See ye? If (this teaching) be from Allah, and ye reject it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel testifies to its similarity (with earlier scripture), and has believed while ye are arrogant, (how unjust ye are!) truly, Allah guides not a people unjust."

In Islam everyone must go to hell first including Muslims the Qur’an declares it!

Sura 19:66-69. Man says: "What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?"

But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?

So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Satans (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell;

Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah) Most Gracious.

Sura 19:71 mentioned not one will pass over it i.e all Muslims must enter hell;

71. Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

Muhammad acknowledged in the Qur’an that he is a sinner and asks forgiveness for his sins both past, present and future!

Sura 48:2 That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfill His favor to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way;

Claims of Jesus of Nazareth !

Jesus Claimed himself sinless which is also mentioned in the Qur’an as a holy/pure son.

Sura 19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

1 Pet 1:19 But he paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God

Jesus claimed he was the only way to go to heaven and the only truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (other then Jesus Christ) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Jesus further provided an amazing miracle raising a dead person four days after this person’s death when the dead body would be rotten and full of stench.

John 11:39-44 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Jesus claimed to resurrect the dead to life even unto eternal life with full authority.

Jesus said unto her (Martha), I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus claimed he could give eternal life and no one could reverse it or take it away so if you trust in Jesus Christ he will take you to heaven and he is the only one who can do this!

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jesus claimed to be the very word of God, God in flesh on earth who made the world and the creator of the world.

He claimed to be God on earth (Immanuel) God with us, he died and rose again showing the power he has over death and life.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (the two are one in nature).

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

Jesus claimed he came on earth to forgive sins once and for all times for those who believed in him and followed him!

John 1:29 next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The Qur’an attests to Jesus being word of God, Kalmatullah and the Spirit of God i.e Ruhh Allah Sura 4:171.

Conclusion

So in essence Jesus is the only one who made the claim of divine authorship and forgiveness of your sins to enter heaven whilst Muhammad does not claim to give you eternal life in anyway possible, even your good deeds guarantee nothing, though you maybe sincerely following a religious or non religious system but you can still be sincerely wrong, Jesus said that it is the condition of your heart which allows God to work in your life and to reveal his only truth the only road to everlasting life through Messiah Jesus.

Jer 29:13 You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart.

If you pray to the Lord Jesus for forgiveness of your sins then not only are your sins forgiven by the blood he shed on the cross but he will enter your life for a personal relationship.

John 6: 47, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life!

Conclusion

Muhammad offered no way to remove your sins, you eternal state hangs in the balance i.e you do not go to heaven at all as he made no such promises but simply said you might or might not.?????

Do you want to live your life on a might or might not?????

It is Jesus Christ who was the final offering for sin on the cross which atones (covers) or removes our sins so that we can go to heaven without having to pay the penalty of sin which is eternal death i.e no heaven but straight to hell for an eternity.

Eternity is a long time to be wrong and there is no comeback so think carefully and choose what is right.

Ibn Abi Ahmed

11-26-2005, 08:19 PM

:sl:

Please post in the appropriate section. Thread Moved to Comparitive Religion forum.

:w:

Ansar Al-'Adl

11-26-2005, 10:40 PM

Hello Mike,
Allow me to welcome you to Load-Islam.com forums. You seem to be fond of copy-pasting articles from anti-islamic websites, which violates forum rules. Don't get me wrong; you are more than welcome to ask specific questions about Islam, but simply pasting a page full of allegations is a pathetic tactic in debates. Let's deal with these issues one at a time, deal?

Originally Posted by mikeengland

Unfortunately you have misunderstood these Qur'anic verses (well, technically I can't even say that since these aren't even your words but words of someone else which you have chosen to paste here). Allow me to clarify, by quoting directly from the Qur'an.

In Islam, salvation is given to those who follow the message of God and strive to do righteous deeds. If one follows the path of Muhammad pbuh (which is the same as all the previous Prophets) they will indeed be blessed with victory in this life and in the hereafter. Consider the following verses:

40:51. Verily, We will indeed make victorious Our Messengers and those who believe, both in this worldly life and on the Day when the witnesses will stand forth, (i.e. Day of Resurrection)

39:20. But those who fear Allâh and keep their duty to their Lord (Allâh), for them are built lofty rooms; one above another under which rivers flow (i.e. Paradise). (This is) the Promise of Allâh: and Allâh does not fail in (His) Promise.

We now see that the claim that Muslims are not promised salvation is a lie; Allah has explicitly promised to reward those who are faitful and work righteous deeds with paradise.

As for the verse you quoted, it is only emphasizing that the Prophet's knowledge of the unseen was only what had been revealed to him from God (cf. Ma'ariful Qur'an vol. 7, p. 788). In fact Imam Ibn Jarir At-Tabari relates the interpretation of Al-Hasan Al-Basri for the verse as, “What will happen to all of us in this world”

Muhammad refused to perform any miracles as he could not!

Sura 29:50 And they say, `Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?' Say, `The Signs are with ALLAH, and I am but a plain warner,'

Reminds me of what Prophet Jesus is reported to have said in the Bible.

Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Mark 8:12 But He sighed deeply in His spirit, and said, “Why does this generation seek a sign? Assuredly, I say to you, no sign shall be given to this generation.”

Yet we know that both Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Prophet Jesus pbuh performed miracles. The answer to this apparent conflict is that they refused to use miracles in response to their people's request for a sign; for indeed people are not guided by miracles but by striving towards God.

Muhammad used the Bible to make a point about his teaching, this very claim gives evidence by Muhammad of the truth of the Bible.

Sura 46:10 Say: "See ye? If (this teaching) be from Allah, and ye reject it, and a witness from among the Children of Israel testifies to its similarity (with earlier scripture), and has believed while ye are arrogant, (how unjust ye are!) truly, Allah guides not a people unjust."

You have misunderstood the Islamic position on previous scriptures. We believe that the revelations that were originally sent to Prophet Jesus and Prophet Moses were indeed the truth, but what has been preserved today is a corrupted altered form, which may contain the words of God, but it also contains the words of human beings.

In Islam everyone must go to hell first including Muslims the Qur’an declares it!

Nonsense! Bring your proof (or ask the source from which you plagiarized from to bring his proof).

Sura 19:66-69. Man says: "What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?"

But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?

So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Satans (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell;

Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah) Most Gracious.

Sura 19:71 mentioned not one will pass over it i.e all Muslims must enter hell;

71. Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

It says "PASS OVER IT" not "enter it" ! Muslims believe that we will have to cross the bridge over hell-fire (siraat) to enter paradise.

Muhammad acknowledged in the Qur’an that he is a sinner and asks forgiveness for his sins both past, present and future!

Sura 48:2 That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfill His favor to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way

A couple of points to note here:
1. The belief of the infallibility of the Prophets means that they cannot commit sin but are still susceptible to minor mistakes, like all human beings. See here for more info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/75709-post2.html
2. Maghfirah (forgiveness) implies protection in Islam, as it is derived from the same root as a shielding helmet.
3. Tauba (repentence) in Islam is not just for the sinful, it is for everyone, just like one can bathe when they are dirty, but people bathe regularly, dirty or not dirty.

Claims of Jesus of Nazareth !

Jesus Claimed himself sinless which is also mentioned in the Qur’an as a holy/pure son.

Sura 19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

The word 'zakiyya' translated here as 'holy' implies purity and innoncence. In verse 18:74 the exact same word is used to refer to a young boy who was killed having done nothing wrong [in the past].

Jesus claimed he was the only way to go to heaven and the only truth.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (other then Jesus Christ) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

What did Jesus say about Salvation?
Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.” NKJV

Dr. Ali Ataie points out the interesting contradictions between Paul's teachings and those of Jesus himself:

Paul has managed to contradict Jesus in almost every single area of faith and practice. Jesus says that there is no original sin (Mark 9:13-14) while Paul says there is (Rom. 5:12-14).

Jesus says that not ALL of us are unrighteous people (Mark 2:16-17; Matt. 15:24) while Paul says that no one is righteous (Rom. 3:10, 23).

Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Jesus exhorts his followers to strictly adhere to the laws and commandments (Mark 10:18-19; Matt. 19:17; Luke 18:20) while Paul calls the law and commandments a “curse” and “bondage” (Gal. 2:16, 3:11, 24; Rom. 2:13).

Jesus says that atonement through sacrifice in not necessary (Mark 12:28-29; Matt. 9:13) while Paul believes that only Jesus' atonement blood sacrifice can save us (Eph 5:2; Gal 3:13; Heb. 9:26).

Yet after all of this, Paul still has the audacity to claim: “Be my followers, as I am a follower of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1)!

By the way, I would love to have a debate with you on the alleged divinity of Christ, if you think you really know your religion. Let me know, and we'll make a new thread.

Jesus further provided an amazing miracle raising a dead person four days after this person’s death when the dead body would be rotten and full of stench.

John 11:39-44 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.

Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

If you're going to use this as evidence of Jesus's divinity, what then of Elisha who preceded this feat by raising a child who was dead for a short time (I Kings 17:22) as well as another who was dead for a long time (II Kings 4:34). And what about the disciples who were also commanded to raise the dead (Matthew 10:8) ?

The Qur’an attests to Jesus being word of God, Kalmatullah and the Spirit of God i.e Ruhh Allah Sura 4:171.

In the Qur'an Jesus is called "Kalimatullah," a word FROM God. The Qur'an is called "Kallamullah," the Word OF God. (Ali Ataie, Voice for Islam)

As for "RuhAllah" the Qur'an actually says that Jesus is a ruhun minhu a soul from God. Before you jump to conclusions, read verse 38:72 where the same phrase is used for Prophet Adam and verse 32:9 where it is used for every human being! Now read verse 66:12 and you will see that it is used the same way for Prophet Jesus pbuh.

As for your flawed conclusion (or technically the source from which you plagiarised), then both Jesus pbuh and Muhammad pbuh had the same message: Worship one God (Matthew 22:37, Qur'an 112:1) and do righteous deeds (Matthew 19:17, Qur'an 2:277). Divinity and atonement were never the teachings of Christ, nor any of the other Prophets.

Please also note that we will remove the other articles that you have plagiarised and pasted on the forum. You are more than welcome to discuss one issue at a time with us, but we will not tolerate cowardly tactics such as copy-pasting numerous pages of allegations.

Regards

Danish

11-27-2005, 01:48 PM

:sl:
Sir, if u r copy and pasting articles, can u plz just summarise them for us next time. I wont lie and say i read ur whole post, only conclusion mostly.

Muhammad offered no way to remove your sins,

As for ur first point: Of course islam gives u a way to get ur sin forgiven. If u actually read the Quran u will find there r dozens of verses mentioning "Allah is the Oft-forgiving, merciful"...Also one verse in 66:8 states "O ye who believe! Turn unto Allah in sincere repentance! It may be that your Lord will remit from you your evil deeds and bring you into Gardens underneath...". So in Islam, its simple, you turn to god with sincere repentance.

you eternal state hangs in the balance i.e you do not go to heaven at all as he made no such promises but simply said you might or might not.?????

Do you want to live your life on a might or might not?????

Well, of course! There is no "god died for ur sin" concept in islam. We have to work hard to please god, and if u do, then Allah almight will give u a place in heaven, god willing. We as muslims believe that following the commandments will get you into heaven, such as praying, charity and so forth. Jesus taught the same thing in: Matthew 19-16-17:
16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

It is Jesus Christ who was the final offering for sin on the cross which atones (covers) or removes our sins so that we can go to heaven without having to pay the penalty of sin which is eternal death i.e no heaven but straight to hell for an eternity.

Well as i said god didnt die for our sins, and btw, no "orignal sin" concept in islam. Allah forgave both adam and eve, therefore god doesn't have to come down to earth and get betrayed and killed when he is begging for help from another part of god to save him.

Acutally bible says Hebrew 9: 22 "Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins. ". Well, this is where we differ, in islam god needs no blood to forgive, he forgave adam and eve, he will forgive u without blood

Eternity is a long time to be wrong and there is no comeback so think carefully and choose what is right.

well, if u truly love jesus u cant help being a muslim, coz we even greet and worship like jesus, and we believe jesus is a muslim.

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Muezzin

12-06-2005, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by mikeengland

In the Qur’an Muhammad claims only to be a messenger or warner to the people.

And your point is?

A prophet IS a messenger.

Abdul Fattah

12-07-2005, 11:37 AM

Muhammad offered no way to remove your sins, you eternal state hangs in the balance i.e you do not go to heaven at all as he made no such promises but simply said you might or might not.?????

Do you want to live your life on a might or might not?????

It is Jesus Christ who was the final offering for sin on the cross which atones (covers) or removes our sins so that we can go to heaven without having to pay the penalty of sin which is eternal death i.e no heaven but straight to hell for an eternity.

Eternity is a long time to be wrong and there is no comeback so think carefully and choose what is right.

You suggested a simular logic in the other thread you started (where we are still awaiting your answer by the way ;) ).
I replied to it with something like the following. It's not a matter of wich sounds most pleasing. It's not a matter of certainty over doubt. People don't choose their religion opportunisticly. One judges religions by personal expierence, or by feeling, by belief. Which one sounds right and which one sounds wrong. Not wich one is easyest! Do you erally think easy equals truth? Are the death equal to the living? You want piece of mind? maybe you should join the pastaferians who believe in the big flying spaghettimonster. I do not see the point of it, but they seem to have the veil of opportunistic convienence and piece of mind over their eyes to.

azim

12-25-2005, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

yes but the difference between adam and seth is the fact Jesus contained all the attributes of God... Jesus woke the dead did moses do the same?
moses seperated water with what? a staff...1 cor. 12:12-13
"The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
Ephesians 1:15-18 "He[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him... And he is the head of the body, the church...

These quotes are New Testament, written by men. To me, religious guidance should come from Allah/God or a Prophet, otherwise anyone can say anything.

There is no, clear, exact, unequivable and unrefutable statement in the Bible, from Jesus, saying that he is God or he is the son of God or he is part of the trinity or that to believe in his death on the cross will bring salvation. So why is it such a major teaching?

PRISONERofJOY12

12-25-2005, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by azim

what about the qur'an? wasn't written by the hands of man?

Umm Yoosuf

12-25-2005, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

what about the qur'an? wasn't written by the hands of man?

..........The Qur'an, as the last revealed book of God, is extant in its original form. Allah Himself guaranteed its preservation. The entire Qur'an was recorded in written form during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) on pieces of palm leaves, parchments, bones, and other suitable surfaces. Moreover, there were tens of thousands of his followers who memorized the whole Qur'an, and the Prophet himself used to recite it to the angel Gabriel once a year and twice when he was about to die.

After the Prophet's death, Abu Bakr, the first caliph, oversaw the collection of the Qur'an into one volume by the Prophet's scribe, Zaid Ibn Thabit. This volume remained with Abu Bakr who, when he was about to die, entrusted it to his successor, Umar Ibn al Khattab who, in turn, passed it on to Hafsa, the Prophet's wife. It was from this original copy that Uthman, the third caliph, prepared several other copies and sent them to different Muslim territories.

The Qur'an was preserved so meticulously because it was to be the book of guidance for all humanity forever. Thus it does not address only the Arabs, even though it was revealed in their language. It speaks to man as a human being: "O Man! What has seduced you from your Lord?" The practical nature of the Qur'anic teachings is established by the examples of the Prophet and of pious Muslims throughout history.

The Qur'an instructions are aimed at the general welfare of man and are based on possibilities within his reach. Its wisdom is conclusive in all of its venous dimensions. It does not condemn or torture the flesh, nor does it neglect the soul. It does not humanize God nor does it deify man. Everything is carefully placed where it belongs in the total scheme of creation.

Those scholars who allege that Muhammad wrote the Qur'an claim something that is not humanly possible. Could anyone living in the sixth century CE. utter such scientific truths as the Qur'an contains? Could he describe the evolution of the embryo inside the uterus so accurately that it matches the description given by modern science?

Secondly, is it logical to believe that the Prophet, who, until the age of forty, was known far and wide for his honesty and integrity, began all of a sudden to write a book that is without equal in literary merit and that could not be surpassed by the whole legion of the Arab poets and orators of the highest caliber?

And lastly, is it justified to say that Muhammad (PBUH), who was known to his people as al-Amin (The trustworthy) and who is still admired by non-Muslim scholars for his honesty and integrity, came forth with a false claim and on that falsehood trained thousands of individuals of character, integrity, and honesty who were able to establish the best human society that the world has ever known? Surely, any sincere and unbiased searcher of truth will come to believe that the Qur'an is the revealed book of Allah.

Without necessarily agreeing completely with their statements, we would like to quote some of the opinions of important non-Muslim scholars who have studied the Qur'an. Such comments show that the non Muslim world is taking a more serious view of the Qur'an and that it is beginning to appreciate its truth. We appeal to all people who are seeking spiritual truth to study the Qur'an in light of the aforementioned points. Cast your preconceived notions aside and listen to what these people have to say.

From main page of Load-Islam.

Edit:

Futher more

......Even though the prophet, peace be upon him, did not read or write, it was recorded and written down during his life. He had a dozen or so of those who memorized Quran from him, write it down on various mediums, including animal skins (leather), bark and palm leaves. He then rehearsed it with them over and over even up until his passing away. Three of the actual Qurans printed in the time of the companions of Muhammad, peace be upon him, exist today and they are exactly as we do recite them today.

Second, we are pleased to tell you, the Quran was recorded in the hearts and minds of more than 10,000 men and women while the prophet, was still alive. He rehearsed it over and over with his companions day after day and in its entirety from cover to cover, out loud, every Ramadhan (lunar month of Muslim calendar).

Third, you need not be concerned about the honesty and integrity of those people who preserved the Quran in their hearts. The veracity of each and every single one of these people (called companions of the prophet) has been attested to and they were all known for having memorized and related the Quran exactly the same as each other. They totally memorized it just as people do today, from mouth to ear and in the exact manner of recitation. This is in itself, an amazing thing. No other book on earth has ever had such distinction in this area.

Fourth, there is no other book on earth like the Quran. Its style and prose in the Arabic language is unmatched for 14 centuries. The prophecies, predictions, scientific evidences, ease of memorization and ability to comprehend is beyond compare.

Fifth, you safely put your mind to rest on this subject of preservation of the Holy Quran, because of its presence with us even today, throughout the entire world. Today every single living Muslim (over 1 billion) has memorized some portion of the Quran in the original Arabic language that it came in, just as the people memorized it over 1,400 years ago. And amazingly enough, over 9 million men, women and children have the entire Quran in their hearts and can recite it for you from cover to cover.

Allah Himself, has promised to preserve the Quran until the Last Days. And He has.

It is the only book on earth that, if you destroyed every book on earth, we would be able to bring it back exactly as it was, every single letter from cover to cover, by the permission of Allah.

These are facts.

The Quran of today can be easily checked by Muslims anywhere on the earth. And there can be no doubt in the mind of any Muslim whether or not what is being recited here in India is the same as what is being recited in Arabia or Africa or in the USA for that matter.

You are most welcome to review the facts and consider for yourself. The Quran makes claims within itself to its own authenticity:

* "This is the Book (Qur'an) wherein there is no doubt."
*"Have not the unbelievers considered that if it were from other than Allah, it would contain many contradictions?"
* "Allah shall show them the Signs within themselves and on the farthest horizons."
* "If you are in doubt about it, bring a book like it."

PRISONERofJOY12

12-25-2005, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by akulion

salam alaikum

Bible can no longer be Quoted as 'truthful' text. And Quran contains enough evidences as to the Truth and only Quran I believe has power to truly open eyes. (and Hadith)

ok tell me what prophecies have been known to become truth in the qur'an?

azim

12-26-2005, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

ok tell me what prophecies have been known to become truth in the qur'an?

http://www.-----------------------/index2.html

Knock yourself out.

*charisma*

12-26-2005, 12:24 AM

Grettings....

wow where do we even begin to start

ok ya know what, ill be right back with some inshallah, till then why dont u post some from the bible..

peace

- Qatada -

12-26-2005, 12:30 AM

Hey.

check this out too: http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_quran.htm

Try checking this site for a brief introduction to islam: http://www.drzakirnaik.com/pages/introduction/index.php

*charisma*

12-26-2005, 12:38 AM

Greetings,

along with bro azim's and bro fi sabilillah *jazakum Allah khair btw*:

http://www.islamicity.com/science/

http://www.islamicmedicine.org/amazing.htm

http://www.science4islam.com/index.aspx?lng=e

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive...no=1&thelang=E

k if u need anymore just say so

peace

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 01:09 AM

unlike the qur'an the Bible is filled with prophecies that could not have been fulfilled through chance good guessing or deliberate deceit... surprisingl the predictive nature of many Bible passages was once a popular arguement among liberals against the reliability of the Bible.

Ibn Abi Ahmed

12-26-2005, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

unlike the qur'an the Bible is filled with prophecies that could not have been fulfilled through chance good guessing or deliberate deceit... surprisingl the predictive nature of many Bible passages was once a popular arguement among liberals against the reliability of the Bible.

:sl:

Prove your words. Show the Prophecies in the Quran that are as you say they are.

:w:

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 01:17 AM

Many of these prophesies would have been impossible for Jesus to deliberately conspire to fulfill -- such as his descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ( genesis 12:3; 17:19; Matthew 1:1-2; Acts 3-25); his crucifixion with criminals ( Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38; Luke 22:37); the piercing of his hands and feet on the cross ( psalm 22:16; John 20:25); the soldiers gambling for his clothes ( psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35); the piercing of his side ( Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34); the fact that his bones were not broken at his death ( Psalm 34:20; John 19:33-37)..

Muhammad

12-26-2005, 02:03 AM

Greetings,

Does that not prove that Jesus could not have been God, if he was not capable of making any prophecies? If he could not foresee his own death, how could he be divine?

Please tell us which prophecies are made in the bible that have come true.

Peace.

*charisma*

12-26-2005, 02:24 AM

Greetings,

I believe because I put my faith on Jesus Christ ( who was the son of God... yes Jesus was God but He wasn't alone God.. look at it like the name God it has three letters the first letter is G-- so the Father fills the first letter then the O- so the son fills the first letter and then the D- and God Holy Spirit fills it...
and when the new heavens and new earth comes Jesus Himself will reign with His people..

I am sure that The Bible was not originally written in English, therefore your assumption of the word God having three meanings is a false interpretation of its true definition. God only means diety. look it up in the dictionary.

let me ask a question.... are you guys promised that God will forgive or will God forgive anyone He pleases?

here are just a few of the many ayahs in the Holy Quran:

003.031 Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

007.161 And remember it was said to them: "Dwell in this town and eat therein as ye wish, but say the word of humility and enter the gate in a posture of humility: We shall forgive you your faults; We shall increase (the portion of) those who do good."

033.071 That He may make your conduct whole and sound and forgive you your sins: He that obeys Allah and His Messenger, has already attained the highest achievement.

028.016 He prayed: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him: for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

19:71-72 And there is none of you except he will come to it (to be exposed to the hell fire). This is upon your Lord an inevitability decreed. Then We will save those who feared Allah and leave the wrongdoers within it, on their knees.

And in this specific one that i have italicized, it says that we will be exposed to the Hell-fire to be cleansed from our sins and after we have been cleansed, He will place us in Paradise. The wrong-doers (nonmuslims) will remain in the Hell-fire for eternity.

Peace

Ansar Al-'Adl

12-26-2005, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

Hello Prisoner of Joy,
I hope you realize that there is no historical evidence to prove that these events occurred. Aside from the fact that the Bible says so, how do you know that the soldiers gambled for his clothes, that his bones were not broken, etc. ? Some historians even question the fact that jesus existed.

So if you want to prove prophecies from the Bible, you need to substantiate them using independent historical evidence. And if you want to claim that the Qur'anic prophecies are lacking, you will have to support your claim when it is challenged. So far, you have not.

Regards

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 05:47 AM

if you can live a sin free life doesn't that make you God?

the Bible is unified ( 2 peter 1:21 ...

now your saying that a spanish book means different since well the Bible has been translated the same way... I don't get it please explain why you can put trust in a spanish book ( learning how to speak spanish but you can't trust the Bible.. ) and kjv words meant different back then.. the Bible changes versions to make it easier for the newer people to read... you should use a dictionary.. nowadays..

*charisma*

12-26-2005, 06:04 AM

Greetings

if you can live a sin free life doesn't that make you God?

Not necessarily, God is PERFECT in every aspect. This is something that can never be imagined from what we see in this lifetime.

Having a sin-free life is close to IMPOSSIBLE actually it is impossible. Allah made it for us so that we do sin, so that we may continue to fear Him and strive to become righteous.

Angels and Prophet's are what are considered to be sinless.

now your saying that a spanish book means different since well the Bible has been translated the same way... I don't get it please explain why you can put trust in a spanish book ( learning how to speak spanish but you can't trust the Bible.. ) and kjv words meant different back then.. the Bible changes versions to make it easier for the newer people to read... you should use a dictionary.. nowadays..

i am not trying to get off topic, but in whatever language when an original source has been translated, some information is lost and when it is translated again from the second translation into a third the information can become false. In the Quran we must recite it through Arabic, in which way it was relevated, and if needed the translation is present, but always the Arabic text is next to it since some arabic words may have multiple meanings and the translation can help the reader with most of the understanding.

I dont understand where u got the spanish statement from but anywayz in spanish god is dios 4 letters not 3 also i believe that the bible was in latin was it not?? im not sure

peace

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by *charisma*

Greetings

Not necessarily, God is PERFECT in every aspect. This is something that can never be imagined from what we see in this lifetime.

Having a sin-free life is close to IMPOSSIBLE actually it is impossible. Allah made it for us so that we do sin, so that we may continue to fear Him and strive to become righteous.

Angels and Prophet's are what are considered to be sinless.

i am not trying to get off topic, but in whatever language when an original source has been translated, some information is lost and when it is translated again from the second translation into a third the information can become false. In the Quran we must recite it through Arabic, in which way it was relevated, and if needed the translation is present, but always the Arabic text is next to it since some arabic words may have multiple meanings and the translation can help the reader with most of the understanding.

I dont understand where u got the spanish statement from but anywayz in spanish god is dios 4 letters not 3 also i believe that the bible was in latin was it not?? im not sure

peace

well in english dios means God .... sooo yeah... to God there is only one language..

we also certainly wouldn't be learning spanish in schools if that were so... I never heard of it.. but if you were to try translating it off the computer then yes it does definately lose its meaning as I tried it once...
and don't you think the Bible has already been put to the test?

*charisma*

12-26-2005, 06:17 AM

Greetings

well in english dios means God .... sooo yeah... to God there is only one language..

ummmm no, thats in spanish...
I think i would know, i take classes

and im sure there are many Languages that are created for a reason, and there is one true language in which all muslims are striving to learn, arabic..

Also, unlike english or any other languages the reason we refrain from using the word god is because it can be pluralized e.g. gods feminized e.g. godess
and it can be belittled or made superior e.g. using lowercase g instead of uppercase g

so that is why we us the word Allah, Al meaning The and Illah meaning God..together not just any god but THE GOD and nothing can be compared to Him.

peace

SunniMuslimah

12-26-2005, 03:39 PM

:sl:

There is nothing in the Bible assures that Jesus is a god, there are some sentences that were wrongly interpreted.

J. in the Bible is just a human being, all the characteristics attributed to him dont have any divinity, even the miracles, his disciple Peter declared that they were done by God!

(Acts 2:22): "Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and sighns, which God did among you through him and, you yourselves know."

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/

Muhammad

12-26-2005, 03:49 PM

Greetings PrisonerofJoy,

Can we please try to stick to the topic, because we just seem to be jumping from one topic to another without properly addressing any of them.

Regarding what you said:

now your saying that a spanish book means different since well the Bible has been translated the same way...

Isn't it the case that the bible has been translated in different ways, hence the different versions.

the Bible changes versions to make it easier for the newer people to read... you should use a dictionary.. nowadays..

Why do some versions gain preference over others then? This continuous tampering causes the original essence of the words to be lost, because we all know that if you keep simplifying something so much, it won't carry the same power as the original.

Peace.

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 03:56 PM

its not continuous tampering....they arent modifying whats already modified every translation comes from the original

so is Jesus a prophet? yes or no?

- Qatada -

12-26-2005, 04:38 PM

I understand what your trying to say prisonerofjoy, but us muslims believe the bible (injeel) existed at the time of jesus (peace be upon him) - but as time has passed by, it has been changed by people to suit their own needs. this means that we dont believe the authenticity of the bible no more.

we stick to the qur'an - no matter what copy of it you see today, if you see the arabic of it (which it was originally revealed in) - if you see every single copy in the world - they will all be recited exactly the same with not even a one letter difference, this has stayed that way since 14 centuries ago, and will stay that way till the day of judgement.

i hope you understand what i'm trying to say.

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 05:01 PM

so your telling me that the BIBLE that as already been test so many times is corrupted with mistakes? don't you think that the archeologicsist already thought of that.. the ones who were against the Bible already read the first writes of the Bible... yes the Bible has been put to the test it has came out.

Zechariah 1:1

1 In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah son of Berekiah, the son of Iddo:

זכריה 1:1

1
1 בַּחֹ֙דֶשׁ֙ הַשְּׁמִינִ֔י בִּשְׁנַ֥ת שְׁתַּ֖יִם לְדָרְיָ֑וֶשׁ הָיָ֣ה דְבַר־יְהוָ֗ה אֶל־זְכַרְיָה֙ בֶּן־בֶּ֣רֶכְיָ֔ה בֶּן־עִדֹּ֥ו הַנָּבִ֖יא לֵאמֹֽר׃

here are the sites
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=28; ---------arabic version
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...r=1&version=31 --- english version

Muhammad

12-26-2005, 05:13 PM

Greetings and :sl: ,

In this thread we can discuss all things about these two scriptures, God-willing, and all posts regarding this topic have been moved here.

Peace.

Muhammad

12-26-2005, 05:30 PM

Greetings,

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

In the Bible there are indeed many mistakes:

You have for example at 2nd Samuel 10:18 a description of a war fought by David saying that he killed 7000 men and that he also killed 40000 men on horsebacks. In 1st Chronicles 19 it mentions the same episode saying that he killed 70000 men and the 40000 men were not on horsebacks, they were on foot. The point be what is the difference between the pedestrian and not is very fundamental.

Matthew 27:5 says that Judas Iscariot when he died he hung himself. Acts 1 says that no he jumped off a cliff head first. If you study Logic very soon you will come in your course to what they call an “undecidable propositions” or “meaningless sentences” or statements that can not be decided because there is no contextual false. One of the classic examples sited is something called the Effeminites paradox. This man was Cretan and he said “Cretans always lie”, now was that statement true or false? If he was a Cretan and he says that they always lie is he lying? If he is not lying then he is telling the truth then the Cretans don’t always lie ! You see it can not be true and it can not be false, the statement turns back on itself. It is like saying “What I am telling you right now is a lie” would you believe that or not? You see the statement has no true content. It can not be true and it can not be false. If it is true it is always false. If it is false it is also true.

Well in the Bible at Titus 1:12 the writer is Paul and he is talking about the Cretans. He says that one of their own men – a prophet - said “Cretans always lie” and he says that what this man says is true. It is a small mistake, but the point is that it is a human mistake, you don’t find that if you carefully examine the true content of that statement. It can not be a true statement.

This has been taken and modified from: http://www.islam101.com/religions/ch...ity/diffBQ.htm

The same site says the following:

The citation of the Bible very often takes the form of what is called in Argumentation: Special Pleading. Special Pleading is when implications are not consistent. When you take something and you say: Well that must mean this, but you don’t use the same argument to apply it to something else. To give an example, I have seen it in publications many times, stating that Jesus must have been God because he worked miracles. In other hand we know very well that there is no miracle ever worked by Jesus that is not also recorded in the Old Testament as worked by one of the prophets. You had amongst others, Elijah, who is reported to have cured the leper, raise the dead boy to life and to have multiplied bread for the people to eat - three of the most favourite miracles cited by Jesus. If the miracles worked by Jesus proved he was God, why don’t they prove Elijah was God ? This is Special Pleading, if you see what I mean. The implications are not consistent. If this implies that then in that case it must also imply the same thing. We have those who would say Jesus was God because he was taken up in the heaven. But the Bible also says the a certain Einah did not die he was taken up into the heaven by God. Whether it is true or not, who knows, but the point is if Jesus being taken up proves he is God, why does not it prove Einah was God? The same thing happened to him.

Peace.

PRISONERofJOY12

12-26-2005, 05:45 PM

Judas bought a field. Judas bought the field indirectly: The money he returned to the priest ( Matthew 27:3 ) was used to purchase the potter's field ( Matthew 27:7 ). fell headlong. Matthew 27:5 reports that Judas hanged himself. it appears that when the body finally fell. either because of decay or because someone cut it down, it was in a dcomposed condition and so broke open in the middle. Another possibility is that "hanged" in matthew 27:5 means " impaled " ( getting notes from Est 2:23 )and that the gruesome of results of judas's suicide are described here.

1:12
The qoutation is from the poet epimenides, a sixthcentury B.C. native of Crete, who was held in high eteem by the Cretans. He was credited with several predictions that wer fulfilled. For other uses of pagan sayings by Paul see Act 17:28; 1co 15:33 Notes---. in greek literature "to Cretanize" meant to lie.
1:13 the faith. note on 1timothy 3:9 ---The faith. Apostolic teaching ( see 4:1,6; 6:10, 12,21:2timothy 4:7 and note; Tit 1:13;cf. 1co 15:3, 2th 2:15 and notes).

unlike einah Jesus died and rosed again.. and then was taken up

PRISONERofJOY12

12-27-2005, 07:47 AM

would you rather be saved by works or by mercy?

dung-warrior

12-27-2005, 08:41 AM

i dont know how to edit so heres a double post

both of you will die, but who is right?

What will happen to each of you when yall die?

Ansar Al-'Adl

12-27-2005, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

would you rather be saved by works or by mercy?

How much do you know about Islam?

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise." (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet's companions) said, 'Not even you, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, "Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy on me." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577)

The deeds are a means of earning Allah's favour and mercy.

What will happen to each of you when yall die?

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=18

Regards

PRISONERofJOY12

12-27-2005, 02:40 PM

you guys are based on doing more good deeds rather than bad deeds... yes it is understandible on why you might think so.. but agian.. it should matter.. if your god cares for you then he would forgive you.. I just read a story on this forum.. our God doesn't want you to stress out on following laws... yes He wants you to be good.. I mean He doesn't like sin of course so He kicked us out of the Garden of Eden... one of the definition in Gods eyes of us is we make mistakes.. by trying to do good deeds all the time you are just stressing out.... I remember one time I got an arguement with my dad about me moving a car or me going to gap... I chose gap ( wednesday night worship ) but I was so mad at my dad.. I just wanted to cry.. then I get this thought it says your moving to fast and to slow down... what does it mean? it simply means that I am trying to be the best Christian out.. trying to earn my way by stating attending church a lot.. does God have a role sheet? if you know what I mean?

it also doesnt matter which way you pray, god is not interested in a navigational compass, he is interested in your heart and mind. you should try talking to Him like I do it is quite relaxing..
and you guys beat yalls wifes... violence in your god..

Abdul Fattah

12-27-2005, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

it also doesnt matter which way you pray, god is not interested in a navigational compass, he is interested in your heart and mind. you should try talking to Him like I do it is quite relaxing..
and you guys beat yalls wifes... violence in your god..

It doesn't matter to God he doesn't need our prayer. The guidelines in prayer are meant for our benefit. And you also shouldn't think that because we have a said way of praying that we do not talk to God on a personal level.

As for beating wives. I don't believe that. adribu the arabic word in the qur'an has about 10 meanings. Hit, avoid, ignore, leave, isolate. There's hadiths who tell us not to hit our wives. So if you put one and one toghether.

PRISONERofJOY12

12-27-2005, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by lyesh

Jesus never said that!!!! If he is God then he should have told that!
I said prove ur word!!!!!!!!!!
if thts the truth prove it!!!!!!!!
and i told u before how you should prove it!!!!!
Make one chapter of the Quran and show us!!!!!!
PROVE IT!!!!!

can you prove that the quran is gods words?

Ghazi

12-27-2005, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

can you prove that the quran is gods words?

Salaam

Below is a link which proves the quran is "Gods Word" it shows modern science agreeing with the quran, I've even heard an explorer had reverted cause of this evidence.

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm

PRISONERofJOY12

12-27-2005, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by islam-truth

satan will try to lead people away about who Jesus really is... though I am not saying anything about the muslim believe... good luck... :confused: :peace:

Ghazi

12-27-2005, 05:13 PM

:sl:

More evidence from the quran which scientist have only discoverd in the past dacades.

Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'an. It is only recently that the scientific meaning of some of these verses has been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these verses correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Qur'an is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sorts of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers form the basis of the Hadith literature.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Sura 39:6. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A.D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Foetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A.D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B.C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly (1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to: (l) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall; and (3) the amniochorionic membrane (Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.
Figure 1. Drawing of a sagittal section of a female's abdomen and pelvis showing a fetus in utero. The "veils of darkness" are: (1) the anterior abdominal wall; (2) the uterine wall, and (3) the amniochorionic membrane.

"Then We placed him as a drop in a place of rest."
This statement is from Sura 23:13. The drop or nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'an which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."
This statement is from Sura 23:14. The word "alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.
Figure 2. Top, a drawing of a leech or bloodsucker.
Below, a drawing of a 24 day-old human embryo. Note the leech-like appearance of the human embryo at this stage.
Figure 3. Left, a plasticine model of the human embryo which has the appearance of chewed flesh.
Right, a drawing of a 28 day-old human embryo showing several bead-like somites which resemble the teeth marks in the model shown to the left.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump."
This statement is also from Sura 23:14. The Arabic word "mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh (Fig. 3). The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh."
This continuation of Sura 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then We developed out of it another creature."
This next part of Sura 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."
This part of Sura 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.

"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."
This part of Sura 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term."
This next part of Sura 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'an referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A.D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'an related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases

Safa

12-27-2005, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

by trying to do good deeds all the time you are just stressing out....

God didn't make religion stressful to follow,

"On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.... "---2:286

Whatever one is not capable of doing good or falls into a sin, they can pray for God's mercy and the act of submission is in and of itself relaxing.

and you guys beat yalls wifes... violence in your god..

That's a pretty stereotypical view you have there. Domestic violence happens everywhere. But you will find many don't believe in beating their wives because the Quran does not tell us that. You would have to read the correct interpretions of the verses.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503544256

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...=beating+wives

lyesh

12-27-2005, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

can you prove that the quran is gods words?

Yes I Can!!! If It's Not The Word Of God Then U Can Change It!
So Many People Tried To Change It But No One Suceeded!
It Contains Stories About The Past And The Future!
The Quran Is The Same As It Is!
U Can Never Destroy It!
Even Though You Collect All The Printed Books Of Quran And Burn Them, You Can Never Delete It From This World!
We Muslims Can Bring Back The Quran In 10 Days Without Even One Letter Missing In It!!!! Because we have it stored in our hearts!! we have memorised it!
PLEASE DO A RESEARCH FOR ME! IF THERE IS ANYONE WHO HAS MEMORISED THE BIBLE, TAKE A MAN WHO'S AGE IS ABOVE 40 AND TAKE A CHILD WHO'S AGE IS BELOW 11, AND TELL THEM TO RECITE THE BIBLE FROM STARTING TO THE END. I WONDER, WILL THEY KNOW THAT? OR WOULD THEY RECITE THE SAME THING? AND GOD KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN BEST!!!!!

I HEARD FROM ANOTHER CHRISTIAN WHEN I WAS CHATTING WITH HER THAT IN THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT THEY WILL KNOW THE TRUE RELIGION. IS THAT TRUE? SO U PPL DEPEND ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT? DOESNT THE BIBLE INFORM YOU THAT THE JUDGEMENT DAY WOULD BE A DAY OF TERROR? SO WHAT WILL BENIFIT YOU IF U BELIEVE THAT ISLAM IS TRUE RELIGION ON THAT DAY? EVEN A MUSLIM WHO HAVEN'T PRAYED OR DO ANY GOOD DEED, HE WILL SURELY BE IN HELL! HIS NAME " MUSLIM " WON'T HELP HIM! SO WILL IT HELP THE CHRISTIANS AND OTHER RELIGIONS?

IM SURE ABOUT QURAN!!!! BECAUSE IF IT'S NOT THE WORD OF GOD YOU WON'T HESITATE TO MAKE A CHAPTER OF IT OR TO CHANGE IT! NOW YOU BETTER PROVE UR WORD! I THINK UR AFRAID THAT U CAN'T DO IT!

PRISONERofJOY12

12-27-2005, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by lyesh

yes it does.. for some.. though.. but if you already know that you will be saved then there is no need of terror... though it still says fear God.. not because of the law.. but just because He will protect you..

Ghazi

12-27-2005, 05:57 PM

Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 have you read my post above, Now can you tell me the bible goes into detail about aspects of the world such as birth, the Big Bang etc, which all have been proven by scientist.

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

Like i've said before:

If you dont prepare for a exam - do you think you'll do well and get high results after the exam?

Or do you think you have to work hard and get good marks (good deeds) in this life so you can have enough good marks (good deeds) to pass your exam?

Muslims believe that we have to do good in this life to be successful for the afterlife. Unlike the christians who believe they'll be saved anyway.

Ghazi

12-27-2005, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12

so God can't have son why is that? what about Jesus his virgin birth? who do you think the father is? come on think... it will come to you soon...
muhammad might have saw someone other than God I mean come on who do you think the best trickter is? look at john smith... mormonism...

Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 I challange you to show verses which talk about things such as the earth, water, birth from the bible which have been proven by scientist.

JKFDURAILED123

12-28-2005, 06:56 AM

is the Qur'an even unified? the whole Bible testifies of Jesus..
read John 5:39, 46, 47,KJV.
The OT is a preparation-- ISAIAH 40:3
The Gospels are the manifestation- John 1:29
Acts is the propagation-- Act 1:8
Epistles give the explanation-- Colossian 1:27
Revelation is the consummation-- Revelation 1:7.

the Bible is a unity which every part needs the other to be completed.

"To the writers of the New Testament, the Hebrew Bible was Holy Scripture and they were the direct heirs of its prophets. It is, accordingly, quite impossible to understand the New Testament without recognizing that its purpose was to supplement and explain the Hebrew Bible."" DR. W. F. Albright

"Lest anyone think this isn't something marvelous, we'd like to give you this challenge. Find ten people from your local area having similar backgrounds, who speak the same language, and all are from basically the same culture. Then separate them and ask them to write their opinion on the only one controversial subject, such as the meaning of life. compare when they are finished.. do they agree with each other? of course not.. " Roger T. Forster and V Paul Marston, That's a good question, p. 67.

SunniMuslimah

12-28-2005, 10:09 AM

Yes your are right Jesus was tempted

Jesus... god... was tempted?! :? :?

The devil tempted GOD?! How is that?! :skeleton:

Can you give us a logical answer that you urself believe, not was told to you by ur priests and ministers!?!

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/

SunniMuslimah

12-28-2005, 10:15 AM

JKF

There are many doubts about who wrote the New Testament, when it was written, and if it changed by time!

You can refer to Britannica and search by Mark, Luke, ..etc. and you will found that the authenticity of the Gospels is in trouble! These sections werent written by seculars but with knowledgable Christian clergymen.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/

SunniMuslimah

12-28-2005, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by islam-truth

The problem about debating with Christians is that they dont like to really consider ur views and discuss them, but rather want you to accept their own views without real discussion, as they were told in the church "leave ur brain before you enter the church".

They think with the heart and want us to do the same, unfortunately!

The whole truth lies in between the covers of the New Testament and they dont want to go deep and understand and analyse what was told or what was done.

They interpret the gospels as the priests tell them. They lack the logical interpretation of the words of J. and his disciples.

They say that J. is god because of his miracles, but J. himself and Peter, one of his disciples attributed the miracles to God as a kind of support to Jesus.

So where is the solid proof that J. is god because he could cure patients or make dead people alive if this was done by God not by him?!:-\

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/

amatullah333

12-28-2005, 10:54 AM

prisioner of joy........

I noticed that in your reply, where you amongst other things say muslims beat there wifes, you used "..." 19 times. Then you ask us:- "if you know what i mean?"!

I really don't know what you mean.

Thats because:
1- you don't answer when others ask you about christianity
2- you presume many things about islam without coming with proof,
3 - you contradict yourself, like for example when you say you strive to become a good christian( by going to church and listening to your father-and the way i know christianity, there are also many other moral laws wich one has to respect like being good to your next and so on) but at the same time you cannot accept when we muslims pray to an appointed place!

So my question is:
Do you want to learn about islam?

Or you have already understood islam but have the feeling that " im affraid to follow the right way just because that's not what my fathers and forefathers believed!"

Because if that's the case, relax!!! Ask the Only God to help you! You know he listens! And that He is the Most Merciful. Wouldn't you agree?

And by the way a large number of cardinals in the U.s.a have been convicted of raping little boys. So tell me: Is that what christianity is all about?

You don't ear me saying that.

Another question! Why is that when a muslim makes somthing criminal people say a muslim has than this and that, but when a christian does something criminal he is just a criminal and no one mentions his faith?

sumay28

01-04-2006, 09:17 PM

I've got my bible on my lap here ready to begin debate. Keeping within the boundaries of the rules of the board......Any Christians want to go a few rounds? Topic of discussion: Contradictions in the bible.

Thanks to my little booklet, 101 clear contradictions in the bible, and thanks to my sunday school teacher when I was younger, I'm ready...

Does God change his mind?
- Yes. "The word of the Lord came to Samuel: "I repent that I have made Saul King.." (I Samuel 15:10 to 11) (You may also find "I regret" or "I grieve")

- No. God "will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent" (I Samuel 15:29)

- Yes. "And the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel" (I Samuel 15:35)

also...
1. "the lord was sorry that he had made man" (Genesis 6:6)
2. "and the lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people" (Exodus 32:14)

.

Muhammad

01-04-2006, 09:22 PM

:sl:

Threads Merged:

Since we already have a topic discussing the Bible and the Qur'an, I thought I would merge this thread with the other. This way, if Christians bring up issues about the Qur'an, we can also deal with them here Insha'Allaah.

:w:

sumay28

01-04-2006, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Muhammad

Thank you!! I don't really comb through the threads so you'll find insha allah I'm going to make your job a little harder!

Sister Khadija

01-13-2006, 09:39 PM

Assalam Alakium,

Bible Contradiction Number 1:

"In six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed" (Exodus 31:17)

Rebuttal:
Since when does GOD rest? He does not display any human attributes of weakness or fatigue. The enitre Bible was mistranslated and here is where the Qur'an fixs it:

"And verily We created the heaves and the earth and all that is between them in six periods, and naught of weariness touched us" (The Noble Qur'an Surah 50:38)

Please remember that when GOD refers to We he is including the Angels as they were watching him create. GOD does NOT get tired. That is just plain silly.

"Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him" (The Noble Qur'an Surah 2:255)

GOD brought us the Qur'an 600 years after Jesus walked the earth because the words got so screwed up no one can easilt deciper them. Reading the Qur'an is as easy to understand as a kid's book. GOD, Allah his Arabic name, wanted to help us.

The Bible is full of contradictions and mistranlastaions. Allah knows EVERYTHING! He knew how crazy the days would be in 2005 so he gave us the Qur'an after Jesus to help us. It says everything the Bible does, just in more detail and not different than the original text like the Bible. Even Christan shcolars admit we do not have the truest words GOD wanted us to have, but that is why the Qur'an is the Last Book. To solve this once and for all.

Contradiction number 2:

"Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever." (Psalms 44:23)

Since when does GOD sleep? Where would we be if GOD needed to sleep? With the same Quote from the Qur'an above, Allah, GOD, brought the Qur'an NOT to replace the Torah (Old Testament), or the Bible, but to correct and undo the misconceptions Man has done to them both and to warn Humanity once and for all himself.

"Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him" (The Noble Qur'an Surah 2:255)

The original manuscripts had been lost! BUT, NOT THE QUR'AN manuscripts. That was GOD's will to protect the 3rd Book!!

The Bible's "original manuscripts had been lost" according to the Christian scholars and theologians:

Some Christians decided to respond to many of the Bible's contradictions. They named their site "101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible." Ironically, their own quotes below refute them! For example, you can do a search on this text in their site: "Confirmation of this type of copyist error is found in various pagan writers as well."Even those Christian scholars admit with their own typed words by their own fingers that the Bible does indeed contain "copyist error(s)", and they lowered their Holy Scripture to the level of a pagan book through their comparison. My question is then, how can it be the word of GOD when it contains Satanic "copyist errors"?

You have to have the Qur'an to explain the Bible!

IF you read the Qur'an, it is better detail anyway, why don't you read it in its entiretiy before judging it!

The Times October 05, 2005 By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”

As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.

Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.

The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”

In their foreword to the teaching document, the two most senior Catholics of the land, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and Cardinal Keith O’Brien, Archbishop of St Andrew’s and Edinburgh, explain its context.

They say people today are searching for what is worthwhile, what has real value, what can be trusted and what is really true.

The new teaching has been issued as part of the 40th anniversary celebrations of Dei Verbum, the Second Vatican Council document explaining the place of Scripture in revelation. In the past 40 years, Catholics have learnt more than ever before to cherish the Bible. “We have rediscovered the Bible as a precious treasure, both ancient and ever new.”

A Christian charity is sending a film about the Christmas story to every primary school in Britain after hearing of a young boy who asked his teacher why Mary and Joseph had named their baby after a swear word. The Breakout Trust raised £200,000 to make the 30-minute animated film, It’s a Boy. Steve Legg, head of the charity, said: “There are over 12 million children in the UK and only 756,000 of them go to church regularly.

That leaves a staggering number who are probably not receiving basic Christian teaching.”

The Book of Jeremiah claims about the Bible being altered to fit their purpose and cover up their shame: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. " (Jeremiah 8:8)"

As we clearly see, the Jews had altered the Law of the LORD (i.e., the Revelations sent to Moses) and turned it into a "lie". Let us further examine the history of the Bible and read the quotes of many of the Bible's theologians:

"Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error. Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist."

"Because we are dealing with accounts which were written thousands of years ago, we would not expect to have the originals in our possession today, as they would have disintegrated long ago. We are therefore dependent on the copies taken from copies of those originals, which were in turn continually copied out over a period of centuries. Those who did the copying were prone to making two types of scribal errors. One concerned the spelling of proper names, and the other had to do with numbers."

"Most Christians will affirm that the Bible is our rule of faith and practice. It is a little self contradictory to stand in the pulpit and say the word of God is inspired, when in his heart the pastor knows he is not referring to any book here on this earth that people can hold in their hands and believe. He really should say what he believes - that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have it, so the best we can do is hope we have a close approximation of what God probably meant to tell us."

"It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals were inspired, when he has never seen them, they never were together in one single book and they no longer exist anyway. How does he know they were inspired? He accepts this by faith. Yet he seems to lack the faith to actually believe that God could do exactly what He said He would do with His words. God said He would preserve them and that heaven and earth would pass away but His words would not pass away."

The Bible's contents today were not written by their original authors. For example, we read from the book of Matthew so many verses such as this one:

"...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed HIM (Jesus). (Matthew 9:9)"

Did "Matthew" write this about himself? Why then didn't Matthew write for example: "he (Jesus) saw ME, and my name is Matthew. I was sitting at the receipt of custom…" etc.

Similarly, we read in the books of Moses things such as "And the LORD said to Moses...", or "Moses went to that place....", etc... We also read in the Old Testament about Moses' burial. Now if Moses alone supposedly wrote his books, then how is it possible for him to write about his own burial when he is already dead??!!

Such evidence can be found in many places throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. The so called "Original letters/Gospels" that were written in Greek and Hebrew, were written by third party people!

HOW WOULD MUHAMMED KNOW THE EARTH WAS ROUND IN 600AD AND CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS COULDN'T FIGURE IT OUT UNTIL 1492AD?

IT TALKS ABOUT 11 PLANETS, A SUN, AND A MOON AND EMBRYOLOGY!

Peace,

sisterKhadija

mansio

01-14-2006, 10:12 AM

Sister Khadijah

Did God get tired and needed rest when he created the world ? Of course not.
It is only a naive way of expressing things that the writers of the Bible used. Let's keep in mind that the Bible is not like the Quran the very words from God, but it is written by men with the mindset of their time, under God's inspiration.

The Quran thinks that the Bible is the very Word of God. So it takes every word in a literal way because it is not accustomed to distinguish between what is said in a symbolic way or not.

So when the Quran says "....naught of weariness touched Us" and "neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him", it is actually the Quran that is naive to think the Jews and the Christians believe God needs rest.

"Reading the Qur'an is as easy to understand as a kid's book."
I would like to believe that, but it is contradicted either by what I read in the Quran or by what other Muslims say.

"Awake, why sleepest thou, O Lord? arise, cast us not off for ever." (Psalms 44:23)
This is a poetic way of saying that God does not answer. Those who take those words literally are either naive or wily.

How is it possible to state that the Quran manuscripts have not been lost !
If they have not been destroyed by Uthman, where are they ?

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-14-2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by mansio

The Quran thinks that the Bible is the very Word of God.

Wrong. The Qur'an says that the Prophets originally recieved direct revelation. Nowhere does it speak about the present day Bible, whether Old testament or New Testament.

So it takes every word in a literal way because it is not accustomed to distinguish between what is said in a symbolic way or not.

Wrong again. Though Christians today have softened many of their doctrines and claimed that they are symbolic, this is not how they were understood by a vast majority of Christians previously. Take for example the Christian claim that Jesus is only 'spiritually' the son of God as opposed to literally.

Here are the verses from the Gospels of Matthew and Luke:

Matthew:

NKJV (New King James Version): "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." - Matt 1:18

Comment: Came together to do what? To play Yatzee? NO! This is a SEXUAL reference. It means before they came together “as one flesh (Genesis 2:24)” as husband and wife.

NLT (New Living Translation, 1996): "Now this is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But while she was still a virgin, she became PREGNANT by the Holy Spirit."

Comment: The Holy Spirit who is the third person of God (according to Christians) got Mary "pregnant." -- Not MY word. This is from the NLT verbatim.

NKJV: "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."- Matt 1:20

Comment: The Holy Ghost (God Almighty) "conceived" Jesus.

Luke:

NKJV: "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?” -
Luke 1:34

Comment: Know not a man in what way? -- Physically, sexually.

NKJV: "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." - Luke 1:35

NASB (New American Standard Bible, 1995): "The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for THAT REASON the holy Child shall be called the Son of God."

Comment: Jesus is called the "Son of God" BECAUSE the Holy Spirit came upon and overshadowed Mary ("for that reason" and for that reason only).

Analysis:

Let's look again at the above verses but with a slight change. Let's say that Scott and Amy are to be married. What is the role of Steve in this relationship?

"Now this is how John Smith was born. His mother, Amy, was engaged to be married to Scott. But while she was still a virgin, she became PREGNANT by Steve Smith."

"But while he (Scott) thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Scott, fear not to take unto thee Amy thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of Steve Smith."

Luke:

"Then said Amy unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not Scott (sexually)?" - Luke 1:34

"The angel answered and said to her, "Steve Smith will come upon you, and the power of the Steve will overshadow you; and for THAT REASON the Child shall be called the Son of Steve."

Final Analysis:

If I present this to an impartial and objective person, where do you think his common sense will lead him? Just because Christians today have revamped their dogma regarding the virgin birth and now call it a "spiritual" or "metaphorical" event--which is a lot more palatable for missionary purposes--does not hide the FACT that the earliest of Christian communities, books, Church Fathers, and Creeds ALL subscribed to the notion that Jesus was the literal (physically begotten) Son of God and that Mary was made "pregnant" by God who "conceived" a Son.

"Neo-Christianity" is not what the Qur'an is refuting. The Qur'an is refuting what the Christian Creeds are actually saying, that is ORTHODOX belief. To say that Jesus is "spiritually" the Son of God is quite UNorthodox. The Church of Scotland in the early 90's stated that Christians need not believe in the Virgin Birth! Do Christians believe this is an orthodox position? By the same token, the BILLIONS of Christians who lived in the past would call the modern evangelical suggestion that Jesus is “spiritually” the Son of God blasphemy.

How is it possible to state that the Quran manuscripts have not been lost !
If they have not been destroyed by Uthman, where are they ?

This is a common error made by those who know very little of Islam. The lies against the Qur'an's preservation have been refuted in great detail by M. M. Al-Azami in The History of the Qur'anic text as well as here:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
Witness the manuscrpts for yourself.

Regards

mansio

01-14-2006, 05:47 PM

Ansar

I do not know if the Quran speaks or not about the present day Bible. That remains to be proven. Is for example the Tawra from the Quran a part of the Bible or not ?

My point is that the people who wrote the Quran mistakenly thought that the Bible writers believed that God could get tired and needed rest. That is the reason why they naively added that Allah could not get tired. Just a "my God is better than yours" attitude.

It is true that Christians believed for centuries many things in the Bible to be true, until science and archeology proved them wrong. As they were not bound by a "direct revelation from God" dogma, they adapted to modern science.

Christians believe that Jesus is spiritually AND literally the Son of God. I don't know what you are refering to ? Christians have never claimed that Jesus was an ethereal being. He was conceived, grew in his mother's womb, and was born like any other child. As for his conception, Christians believe it was God himself who started the process. For biological details ask people who believe in virgin births. There are plenty around.
As far as I know Christians have never changed their beliefs about the virgin birth.

The story that all manuscripts from Muhammad's time were destroyed by Uthman may be a lie, but then where does that lie come from ? It is the first time that I see that story denied.
The Quran pages that are on the link are very approximately dated. They look similar in style and rather neatly written.
I still do not see any of those thousands of small texts written on various objects by the Prophet's secretaries. Many have certainly not resisted to time but many, even erased, must have been kept as the holiest of relics. Where are they ?

Abu Zakariya

01-14-2006, 07:06 PM

I do not know if the Quran speaks or not about the present day Bible. That remains to be proven. Is for example the Tawra from the Quran a part of the Bible or not ?

I have been seriously overestimating you. First your ignorance of the fact that Muslims follow the Sunnah and uses it as an exlanation of the Qur'an, and now this.
The Tawrah and Injeel mentioned in the Qur'an don't refer to todays Tawrah and Injeel, rather it refers to the original ones. Todays Bible is considered to be corrupted by men and the Bible we as Muslims have to believe in is the original, uncorrupted one.

My point is that the people who wrote the Quran mistakenly thought that the Bible writers believed that God could get tired and needed rest. That is the reason why they naively added that Allah could not get tired. Just a "my God is better than yours" attitude.

Hmmm, so the same can be said for the verse: "Lam yalid wa lam yulad" (He begets not nor is He begotten)".
The writers naively added this, because they thought that Christians believe that God has a son?

Besides, you seem to think that Ayat al-Kursi (the verse in which the part about God sleeping is mentioned) came as a rebuttal to Christian dogma. You have no knowledge of the verse in question and you just guessed that the statement that God doesn't sleep is an answer to Christian belief. What is your proof for this? And if it indeed was "made-up" for this purpose, how do you know that the authors thought that the Christians of that time didn't believe that God physically rested. Also, how do you know that they didn't believe this?
If you want to guess, feel free to do so. But don't try to make your guessing-game some kind of proven fact.
The statement refers to the fact that God is aware of everything and His power, as explained by ibn Kathir:

(Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him) means, no shortcoming, unawareness or ignorance ever touches Allah. Rather, He is aware of, and controls what every soul earns, has perfect watch over everything, nothing escapes His knowledge, and no secret matter is secret to Him. Among His perfect attributes, is the fact that He is never effected by slumber or sleep.

This may seem unimportant to mention. However, if we take into consideration the fact that we have some people imagining and painting God as an old, white man with beard, streatching His finger to Adam. We have some people believing that He repented and cried because of the things He did to the Jews. We have some people believing that He wrestled against Israel (Jacob) and lost. We have some people believing that God had to look for Adam (He couldn't find him) after Adam had sinned. We have people believing that God died (on a cross), etc.
Because of this, it is very important to mention things like:

La takhudhuhu sinatun wa la nawm (Neither sleep nor slumber overtakes Him)
Lam yalid wa lam yulad (He begets not nor is He begotten)
wa lam yukullahu kufuwan ahad (There is nothing like unto Him)

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-14-2006, 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by mansio

I do not know if the Quran speaks or not about the present day Bible.

We are quite aware that your knowledge of the Qur'an and the Bible is limited, as this post illustrates.

Is for example the Tawra from the Quran a part of the Bible or not ?

The Tawrât is what was originally revealed to Moses. While some parts of the original message may exist in the present-day Bible, much has been corrupted and altered.

My point is that the people who wrote the Quran mistakenly thought that the Bible writers believed that God could get tired and needed rest.

And I just refuted this point in my previous post, which you ignored. The Qur'an refutes any conception that God was tired after Creation which was a popular belief amongst many groups although modern day Christians and Jews no longer hold this view. This is what the quote from Dr. Ataie explains - that the Qur'an is not interested in refuting neo-christianity or whatever has evolved from that, but the specific deviant beliefs originally propagated. Besides, nowhere in the Qur'anic verses you cited does it make any mention of what is in the Bible. This is just an assumption on your part. The Qur'an doesn't care who believes that God has the human attribute of fatigue, it refutes the erroneous notion regardless.

Christians believe that Jesus is spiritually AND literally the Son of God. I don't know what you are refering to ? Christians have never claimed that Jesus was an ethereal being. He was conceived, grew in his mother's womb, and was born like any other child.

Clearly you are also not well informed about Christian beliefs either. No Trinitarian Christian today would dare claim that Jesus is the literal i.e. biological son of God. In fact Christians believe that the Son existed EVEN BEFORE THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME UPON MARY. They do not claim that the Son only came into existence when Mary became pregnant.

It is amazing that, not only must I remove your misconceptions about the beliefs of Muslims, but about the beliefs of Christians as well!

The story that all manuscripts from Muhammad's time were destroyed by Uthman may be a lie, but then where does that lie come from ? It is the first time that I see that story denied.

It is quite clear that you've been misinformed about the entire process. During Uthman's time, he ordered that only copies would be made of the manuscript that had been collected and recorded under the supervision of all the Companions. All unauthorised copies were to be burned to PREVENT circulation of copies containing errors. Thus, this event actually protected the Qur'an from alteration and corruption.

I still do not see any of those thousands of small texts written on various objects by the Prophet's secretaries.

This does not damage the Qur'an's preservation at all. These small scraps and texts were used to compile the first mushaf after which that became the authoritative copy. It is also important to note that even though the companions had all memorized the Qur'an by heart, they still set the lofty requirement of two witnesses for each verse, who had recorded that verse under the supervision of the Prophet himself.

Once again, it seems like you are speaking about a subject that you have very little knowledge of - the Qur'anic preservation. I would recommend that you adequately educate yourself on this subject first by reading the works I recommended earlier.

Regards

mansio

01-15-2006, 11:38 AM

Ansar al Adl

All we know about the writing and preservation of the Quran does not come from reports that were written down at the time of the Prophet, but from oral traditions that were collected and written down decades and sometimes centuries after Muhammad's death.
You have similar oral traditions put to writing in Catholicism and Mormonism. Does it make them historical facts that will make you believe in Catholicism and Mormonism ?
So we have no proofs that the companions had all memorized the Qur'an by heart, that the requirement of two witnesses for each verse was set, that every verse was recorded under the supervision of the Prophet himself. That looks more like holy legends made up to compensate the lack of documents.

What I have heard about Uthman's recension is that there are several different stories about it.
I still haven't seen a document from Muhammad's time. If only copies were burned, like the ones seen on the pictures I guess, what about all the pieces and scraps ?
Another question: why had copies to be burned ? Answer: because there were differently written Qurans in circulation, which gives a serious blow to the preservation theory.

Have you ever heard of the Christian dogma of Incarnation. Christians state that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, all in one. It was the human part of Jesus that came into physical existence when Mary became pregnant and it merged so to speak with the godly Son from the Trinity.
Of course Jesus as God preexisted from eternity, that is the core of the Trinity.
When I said Jesus was not an ethereal being I was refering to the human part of Jesus.

The first time I came across the verse of the Quran that God was not tired from creating I immediately knew to what it was refering. I made me smile and I would have forgotten the seemingly naivety of it. But as there are other instances in the Quran with naive sayings, it gave credence to my first impression.
----
MODERATOR: WHY ARE YOU AFRAID TO DISCUSS ISSUES ONE-BY-ONE? WHY PASTE A LIST OF ALLEGATIONS? ANOTHER COP-OUT OF A DEBATE?

If much in the Bible has been corrupted why do Muslims abundantly quote from it ?
I won't ask for proofs of corruption as Muslims have never showed any.
Let's not play on words with "corruption". It means that Jews and Christians had sacred scriptures, and in the course of history, someone (or a number of people) managed to change those scriptures. That is what is meant by corruption.

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-16-2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by mansio

All we know about the writing and preservation of the Quran does not come from reports that were written down at the time of the Prophet, but from oral traditions that were collected and written down decades and sometimes centuries after Muhammad's death.
You have similar oral traditions put to writing in Catholicism and Mormonism. Does it make them historical facts that will make you believe in Catholicism and Mormonism ?

Until you educated yourself there is no point in debating you. You are completely ignorant about not only the Qur'anic compilation and preservation but hadith methodology as well. You couldn't differentiate between an authentic hadith and a fabricated one if your life depended on it. Now I gave you the links and the resources from which to educate youself, so I have given you the opportunity to cure your ignorance. Whether you choose to do so, however, is entirely your decision.

So we have no proofs that the companions had all memorized the Qur'an by heart

Do you know anything about taraweeh? Every year in Ramadan, the imaam at ever masjid recites the ENTIRE QUR'AN VERBATIM before all the worshippers. Do you know anything about ijazaazah that people acquire in Qur'an? There are millions and millions of scholars who are part of an unbroken chain that leads directly to the Prophet, with specific NAMES. The companions taught the next generation who taught the next generation and so on, until today. Memorization of the Qur'an has always been the tradition of the Muslim community and it is one of the features of the Qur'an that distinguishes it from every other scripture in the world. I challenge you to tell me even one other scripture which has such a massive number of people who memorize it. There are members of this forum who have memorized the entire Qur'an, word-for-word, letter-for-letter. This tradition did not spontaneously arise in the Muslim community, it has been here since the beginning.

that the requirement of two witnesses for each verse was set, that every verse was recorded under the supervision of the Prophet himself.

This is something established in AUTHENTIC NARRATIONS. Since you have no education in hadith mehtodology, and have no qualifications as a Muhaddith, please excuse me if I discard your opinion on these narrations amongst the other conjecture you have advanced on this forum as though it were fact.

What I have heard about Uthman's recension is that there are several different stories about it.

I don't care what hearsay and rumous you have heard. They have no place in a SCIENTIFIC DISCUSSION BASED ON EVIDENCE.

I still haven't seen a document from Muhammad's time.

Now you have.

Another question: why had copies to be burned ?

Any copies that were not authorised were burned to ensure that copies were only made of the manuscript which was collected and confirmed by all the companions. I already answered this, but of course you weren't interested in the answer.

Have you ever heard of the Christian dogma of Incarnation. Christians state that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God, all in one. It was the human part of Jesus that came into physical existence when Mary became pregnant and it merged so to speak with the godly Son from the Trinity.
Of course Jesus as God preexisted from eternity, that is the core of the Trinity.
When I said Jesus was not an ethereal being I was refering to the human part of Jesus.

I know you need to make excuses up now to save face, but none of these points excuse you for the blunder you made, namely that you said:

Christians believe that Jesus is spiritually AND literally the Son of God

Christians do NOT believe that Jesus is the literal biological son of God.

The first time I came across the verse of the Quran that God was not tired from creating I immediately knew to what it was refering.

You mean you immediately ASSUMED as to what it was referring to. Well guess what, you may have ASSUMED wrong!

The statement that God was not tired is true and it refutes anyone who believes in that statement. It doesn't matter whether they are Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Satanists, etc. The Qur'an is only interestred in refuting this misconception.

Once again you are pasting all your alleged errors. Are you too afraid to discuss them with me one by one in the ----------------------- thread?

If much in the Bible has been corrupted why do Muslims abundantly quote from it ?

I already answered this.

I won't ask for proofs of corruption as Muslims have never showed any.

Another one of your lies. Read here:
Several articles available here

mansio

01-16-2006, 06:32 PM

To the moderator

I discussed issues one by one except that I did it in the REVERSE order.

Message #57:

Bible and Quran
Creation and rest
Jesus and Trinity
Quran manuscripts

My answer #58:

Quran manuscripts
Jesus and Trinity
Creation and rest
Bible and Quran

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-16-2006, 07:02 PM

Pasting a list of alleged errors in the Qur'an does not constitute discussing them one-by-one but instead is a cop-out of a focused debate.

mansio

01-16-2006, 07:22 PM

Ansar

I'm not discussing about the preservation of the Quran after Uthman until today, but from the time of revelation to Uthman.

You know the argument that if a book says everything in it is true, it is not a proof that it is true.
So if you have hadith that say they are true, it is not a proof that they are true.
Hadith have been written at least 150 years after Muhammad and the isnad starters.

"Christians do NOT believe that Jesus is the literal biological son of God."
Why do you keep saying that ? Jesus (according to Christians) is the biological son of God. It is called the virgin birth !
The "fathering" agent is the Holy Spirit, that is God, and the mother is Mary.

If you want me to continue the miraclesofthequran thread I'll do it.

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-16-2006, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by mansio

I'm not discussing about the preservation of the Quran after Uthman until today, but from the time of revelation to Uthman.

I'm aware of that, and so far you haven't given any evidence to support your position,

You know the argument that if a book says everything in it is true, it is not a proof that it is true.

Proof? Considering the amount you've provided I'm surprised you even know the word.

So if you have hadith that say they are true, it is not a proof that they are true.

Hadith authenticity is not based on whether a hadith 'says' it is true or not. Please educate yourself.

Hadith have been written at least 150 years after Muhammad and the isnad starters.

Blatant lie.
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...llections.html

"Christians do NOT believe that Jesus is the literal biological son of God."
Why do you keep saying that ? Jesus (according to Christians) is the biological son of God. It is called the virgin birth !

It is the Christians themselves who emphasize this point. If you want to debate go debate with them. They have written books and books saying that "The term “Son of God” is used in different senses in the Bible. But, never does it mean that God has a wife and produces offspring." and that "The term 'son of God' is symbolic, it does not mean that Christ is the biological off-spring of God as God does not have a spouse."

It is the MORMONS who believe that Christ is the literal biological son of God!

If you want me to continue the miraclesofthequran thread I'll do it.

Ther'es no point in continuing a discussion just for the sake of argument. In every single post you've given on the forum all you have done is make unsubstantiated claims and lies. No proof whatsoever. You just parrot claims like "Qur'an copied Bible" "Qur'an is book of fables" "Qur'an copied pagan myths" but you never give evidence to support anything. You're not interested in learning and finding out the truth about the Qur'an and the hadith. You even have the audacity to pass judgments on the hadith when you have absolutely no education on hadith methodology whatsoever. You arrogance is shocking!

A forum is a place for discussion. It doesn't work if one person simply is interested in voicing their personal opinions without listening to others. Too many times on this forum you have ignored our requests for evidence to support your unsubstantiated claims. If you continue to do so, you will be banned.

Regards

Abu Zakariya

01-16-2006, 09:08 PM

I saw all the bad faith you can have in the discussion about "tara'ib", a case where most Muslim translators were on my side.

Whoa. Talk about twisting the truth.

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