What would convince you to become Muslim?

[sonz]

what would convice u to become muslim??? tell us

[Bittersteel]

evangelism is wrong.whatever you are doing is kind of evangelism.

[- Qatada -]

Salaam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

alhamdulilah i'm already a muslim.. but i believe its the truth and how everything links up without any contradictions. i also love the way how everythings so basic yet its so deep. islam is an easy religion too:


our beloved Prophet Muhammad sal Allaahu alayhi wasalam said;

“This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahîh al-Bukharî]


:) a really good idea for a thread masha Allaah.


wa Salaam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

evangelism is wrong.whatever you are doing is kind of evangelism.

:sl:
Are you saying we shouldn't do Da'wah (inviting people to the way of Allah) ?

:w:

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[Sis_ReNa]

Salam walakum,
Nothing really convinced me, I was looking for a relgion that had the same ideas and ideals as mine from the age of 15 it took me 10 years to find the Quran, I read it once and know that Islam was my realigion and muslim was who i was. i baught the quran that night. a year and 6 months later my mother converted to islam AllahuhAKbar
wa salam
may Allah bless, guide, protect you all and your families in this life and in the next ameen
Rena

[PRISONERofJOY12]

“This religion is easy. No one becomes harsh and strict in the religion without it overwhelming him. So fulfill your duties as best you can and rejoice. Rely upon the efforts of the morning and the evening and a little at night and you will reach your goal.” [Sahîh al-Bukharî]

very easy? well in our religion CHRISTianity hardships is one of those things that we are to deal with... I guess may I ask have yall ever had hardships I mean you said it is very easy...?

[sapphire]

allhamdulliah already a muslim!!!!!!!but if i wasnt...then a religious experience most likely.......

[azim]

very easy? well in our religion CHRISTianity hardships is one of those things that we are to deal with... I guess may I ask have yall ever had hardships I mean you said it is very easy...?

Do you think Muslims have it easy? I'd beg to differ, and I think it's quite obvious that Muslims, just like everyone else, go through hardships.

The hadith is not saying you become a muslim and everything suddenly becomes easy, infact the Quran says that if you become a muslim and believe, you will be tested.

The hadith instead is pointing that religion should not monastic, we should live our lives, enjoy ourselves, have fun, but do these within the limits set by Islam. It also reminds us that to remember Allah, even a little, will suffice and as long as we fear Allah, then Allah will guide us ("rely on the efforts of the ...").

Islam does not ask it's follower to believe in anything strange or circumlocutory beliefs. It confirms what is in the hearts of mankind - Believe in God, Believe in the Day of Ressurection, be patient, be truthful and do good deeds. Simple, don't you agree? Yet at the same time so meaningful.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Islam does not ask it's follower to believe in anything strange or circumlocutory beliefs. It confirms what is in the hearts of mankind - Believe in God, Believe in the Day of Ressurection, be patient, be truthful and do good deeds. Simple, don't you agree? Yet at the same time so meaningful.

no not really.... it is a lot easier believing there is a God that cared so much as to send His only begotten son than it is thinking there is no god out there who would do such thing...

good deeds we arn't called to do good deeds or should I say we arn't forced to do good deeds we are sinners from birth we were born to rebel... do all those things... but without belief that a savior died for just those things would be hard for most people...

let me ask you something are you able to bare your own sins?

[Umu 'Isa]

you believe an innocent baby can commit a sin? a baby can't differentiate the difference between good and bad. So how can a baby commit a sin??
Everybody sins, it is natural to sin. But when we get older we are able to make our own decisions? We can chose to follow the right path or we can chose to ignore it.
Allah (swt) gave us the power to make our own decisions to see who would be a faithful slave of His!
If Jesus died for all of our sins then why does the bible say to abide by it?? I mean if i killed someone i would still be going to heaven regardless right. Because Jesus died for our sins??? (Just an example)

[Umm Yoosuf]

In Islam everybody is born SINLESS. They are Muslim’s, it’s either their parent’s that make them a Christian, a Jew, Hindu etc

Why should God send is only son to die for everybody’s sin’s???

“And he who does an atom’s weight of good will see it. And he who does an atom’s weight of evil will see it.” [Holy Qur’an, 99:7-8]

“Is he who is a believer like unto him who is a sinner? They are not alike! For those who believe and do righteous works, for them are Gardens of Retreat, a welcome (in reward) for what works they did. And as for those who do evil, their abode is the Fire. Whenever they wish to leave, they will be forced back into it, and it will be said to them: Taste the torment of the Fire which you used to reject.” [Holy Qur’an, 32:18-20]

Nevertheless the one who sin’s Allah says:

"Say: O my slaves who have transgressed against themselves! Despair not for the mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. truly he is oft forgiving, most merciful." Az-Zumar (39:53)

Again, God says to the believers in a Hadith –ul-Qudsi.
“O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me, and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth, and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.”

[akulion]

no its not easier for me to believe that a man is god or son of god

and yes i accept responsibility for my sins because i know i did them but i also know that god is so so merciful that whoever seeks forgiveness with a true heart is forgiven and no blood sacrifices are needed because the mercy of god is enough

[azim]

no not really.... it is a lot easier believing there is a God that cared so much as to send His only begotten son than it is thinking there is no god out there who would do such thing...

I said salvation in Islam is simpler, and it is logical. A logic God put in us.

It is much easier to believe that someone did all the hard work for us, and all we have to do is to believe that Jesus died for us and boom..where in heaven. It's easier because it means there are no rules we have to abide by, we can live a hedonistic, socially destructive and ignorant life as long as we believe Jesus died for our sins..we can enter heaven. That is a lot easier, but it's not simple, nor is it truthful.

Allah said that no one enters the hellfire except the one who chooses too. Consider this - are you choosing heaven or hell? Really consider this statement. If you are choosing heaven, then how? By simply holding a belief - I'm sure Satan believes that Jesus died for the sins of mankind. Granted, Satan isn't human, but belief is not enough. Belief must be followed by action. And even though you may state otherwise, Christiannity doesnt require any action, only belief.

PS: A genuine question out of curiosity, can Satan ever repent and will God forgive him?

[Abdul Fattah]

no not really.... it is a lot easier believing there is a God that cared so much as to send His only begotten son than it is thinking there is no god out there who would do such thing...

It's a lot easyer to believe that the universe consists out of only 3 dimensions, but apearently it consist out of 11. It's a lot easyer to think everything will be alright when your facing challenges, but history teaches us that that's not always true. Just because something is easy or safe or pleasant to believe, does not make it true. In fact in this case I would say the opposite.

good deeds we arn't called to do good deeds or should I say we arn't forced to do good deeds we are sinners from birth we were born to rebel... do all those things... but without belief that a savior died for just those things would be hard for most people...

What christians do, is reject responsability for their actions! Oh its not my fault I was created inperfect. Were are just casultys of a war that's being waged between God and satan. But we will be forgiven regardlessly, so it does not matter that we sin. NO, that's wrong, you were created with temptation, but you still have a choice.

let me ask you something are you able to bare your own sins?

I feel bad for them, I ask forgiveness for them, but I do not deny them. They are my shortcommins and I am the one to blame. I hope they will be forgiven, but why would they be forgiven by default when I don't repent and feel bad about them in the first place?

[PRISONERofJOY12]

PS: A genuine question out of curiosity, can Satan ever repent and will God forgive him?

no.. because satan is the evil of all things God created hell for satan and his angels ( demons ).. unlike God, satan cannot be every where.. unlike God, satan cannot give us his spirit... but it is demons who possess men...

[- Qatada -]

But whats the purpose of satan if the sinners will be saved in the salvation anyway? didn't God or jesus take away everyones sins anyway?


i dont understand.. sorry.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

satan is here to trick people... to make them fall off.. to test people as you read in Job.. if you think about it satan doesn't want you to have salvation.

[- Qatada -]

How does he stop a person from gaining salvation?

[PRISONERofJOY12]

His power is very great in the world. He is a "roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8). Men are said to be "taken captive by him" (2 Tim. 2:26). Christians are warned against his "devices" (2 Cor. 2:11), and called on to "resist" him (James 4:7).


satan-decieve destration... he will tempt you with lust, and bad things...
now the protection that us Christians have is the Armor of God
Helmet- protects brain ( thought )
shield- Protects from errows ( lies )
belt- truth
shoes of readyness- protects feet

[- Qatada -]

Hey.

I dont understand what you mean by satan devouring people, because if all you have to believe in is jesus - without having to do anything, then what is the purpose in life?

i keep raising the point about the difference between a mass murderer and a person who helps the needy, if they both believe in jesus - then why should the guy who helps the needy, help the poor? obvioulsy they both going to get saved and go to heaven aren't they?


imagine a exam - do you really believe you would be able to pass it without having to prepare for it? without having to revise the information you need for it?

the same way - how do you know you will go paradise without even getting prepared for your salvation? can a person go to paradise even though they commited so much crimes, without any punishment for it?

isn't God the Most Just, and dont you believe that God will judge people on their actions in this life?



Us muslims believe that we will be judged on our actions, of this life - so we have to do as much good acts in this life to please our Lord (God).

we have to prepare for 'that exam' and whoever has more marks (more good deeds) in this life - they will be the ones who will be granted paradise by the Most Merciful Lord (Allaah, God) whereas whoever did bad things in this life - will get their punishment for it, because they never cared about how the people felt - and didn't care about the consequences of their acts.

Dont you think thats fair?


in the qur'an it says:

(53:38) That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another-

(53:39) And that man shall have nothing but what he strives for-

(53:40) And that his striving shall soon be seen-

(53:41) Then shall he be rewarded for it with the fullest reward-

(53:42) And that to your Lord is the goal-


So if we strive for paradise - and do good deeds, then this is how we will be rewarded with paradise. If we dont strive for paradise and dont do any good deeds - then why should God grant us paradise?


This is why we turn to God - so we can be protected from satans evil ways.


in the qur'an it says:

Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,

The King of mankind,

The God of mankind,

From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Satan),

Who whispers into the hearts of men,

From among the jinn and the men.


(chapter 114:1 - 6)



check this article out to get a basic understanding of the purpose of our lives as muslims:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...97-advice.html

[PRISONERofJOY12]

How does this physical protection help against a non-physical entity? In Islam, God has taught us special verses of the Qur'an and supplications (which I have mentioned before) that protect against Satan.

Peace.

it is not physical it is spiritual protection... you seen castle movies where people back then had shields? well they had leather on those shields that protects you against those flaming errows ( lies ) that satan tells you in your concience..
I will elaberate more on it later.

[azim]

no.. because satan is the evil of all things God created hell for satan and his angels ( demons ).. unlike God, satan cannot be every where.. unlike God, satan cannot give us his spirit... but it is demons who possess men...

In that case, the Christian idea of God seems VERY unfair to me.

1) God will allow people who sinned and never tried to make ammends into heaven if they believe in Jesus, whether they are a saint or a murderer/rapist they are equal.

2)People who do good and dont believe in Jesus, will go to hell, even though they might be able to 'resist' Satan better than Christians.

3)God couldn't forgive his creation, he needed a blood sacrifice.

4)God creates Satan, damns him to hell, but doesn't give him a chance to repent or to make ammends.

In Islam, Allah is called 'The most Just', and Allah is.

Moses asked Allah once, if Satan repented, would you accept it?

Allah replied Yes.

So Moses, asked Satan if he forgivness. Satan said Yes. So Moses asked Allah, what should Satan do to achieve forgivness. Allah replied 'Go to the grave of Adam, and bow before him, obeying my command like you had refused it before'. Moses told this news to Satan, but Satan replied 'I did not bow before when he was alive, I will not bow before now that he is dead'.

Jesus, too, once asked Allah, if Satan repented, would Allah accept?

Allah replied "Yes, but I already know he wont".

Freewill is important in Islam, and we will all be held accountable for our actions. As a Christian, it seems you like to believe in a God who will not hold you accountable. This is a sad thing. Allah will judge everyone, please, if you have a belief in God, then ask God to guide you to the path of the righteous whom will have heaven. You got nothing to lose.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

in Christianity.. God is called the all powerful, the all knowing, all justiful, and loving God.. which is what He wants in return not rules for you....

[Rabi'ya]

In that case, the Christian idea of God seems VERY unfair to me.

1) God will allow people who sinned and never tried to make ammends into heaven if they believe in Jesus, whether they are a saint or a murderer/rapist they are equal.

2)People who do good and dont believe in Jesus, will go to hell, even though they might be able to 'resist' Satan better than Christians.

3)God couldn't forgive his creation, he needed a blood sacrifice.

4)God creates Satan, damns him to hell, but doesn't give him a chance to repent or to make ammends.

In Islam, Allah is called 'The most Just', and Allah is.

Moses asked Allah once, if Satan repented, would you accept it?

Allah replied Yes.

So Moses, asked Satan if he forgivness. Satan said Yes. So Moses asked Allah, what should Satan do to achieve forgivness. Allah replied 'Go to the grave of Adam, and bow before him, obeying my command like you had refused it before'. Moses told this news to Satan, but Satan replied 'I did not bow before when he was alive, I will not bow before now that he is dead'.

Jesus, too, once asked Allah, if Satan repented, would Allah accept?

Allah replied "Yes, but I already know he wont".

Freewill is important in Islam, and we will all be held accountable for our actions. As a Christian, it seems you like to believe in a God who will not hold you accountable. This is a sad thing. Allah will judge everyone, please, if you have a belief in God, then ask God to guide you to the path of the righteous whom will have heaven. You got nothing to lose.

JazakAllah for a wonderful reply. you really opened my eyes. I did not know this. MashaAllah. Allah truly is the most just and reasonable. Who can deny it?

these are exactly the reasons why I became Muslim. Whenever you think that things cant be answered, suddenly Islam has the answer, alhamdulillah :)

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:

[PRISONERofJOY12]

37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.

there is no law about following something... LOVE YOUR GOD is THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT... by stating that you need to do all the other things your stating that those things are above more important than anything...

I guess what Jesus did in the Bible forty days and forty nights it was because He was trying to convert satan.... ok never knew that...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Jesus says that our good works are necessary and meaningful (Matt. 5:16; John 10:24-25) while Paul says they are worthless and unnecessary (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:6-14).

Jesus exhorts his followers to strictly adhere to the laws and commandments (Mark 10:18-19; Matt. 19:17; Luke 18:20) while Paul calls the law and commandments a “curse” and “bondage” (Gal. 2:16, 3:11, 24; Rom. 2:13). (SOURCE)

[*Hana*]

in Christianity.. God is called the all powerful, the all knowing, all justiful, and loving God.. which is what He wants in return not rules for you....

Salam and peace:

Ummmmm, actually, you do have rules in Christianity. It's called the Ten Commandments. :muddlehea

And, as a Christian that believes Jesus, pbuh, is on the same level as God, you break the very first one. :confused:

It's the confusion of the trinity, original sin and blood atonement that brought me to Islam. Alhamdulillah :smile:

Wasalam
Hana

[Rabi'ya]

Salam and peace:

Ummmmm, actually, you do have rules in Christianity. It's called the Ten Commandments. :muddlehea

And, as a Christian that believes Jesus, pbuh, is on the same level as God, you break the very first one. :confused:

It's the confusion of the trinity, original sin and blood atonement that brought me to Islam. Alhamdulillah :smile:

Wasalam
Hana

umm, what were forgetting tho is apparently the old testament was over ruled after jesus came - the commandments were revealed in the old testament :playing:

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:

[azim]

umm, what were forgetting tho is apparently the old testament was over ruled after jesus came - the commandments were revealed in the old testament :playing:

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:

But Jesus never overruled the Old Testament, he said: -

"Think not that I came to destroy the Law and the Prophets. I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily, I say unto you that until Heaven and earth pass away not a jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:17-18

The law is the law of the Old Testament, outlined in Duetromony for the main part, including the 10 commandments.

It's only when St. Paul came that this changed, he said 'it is because of the law that I sin, if it were not for the law, I would not sin, so the law is dead to me and I am dead to the law'.

So Christians, if they followed Jesus, would have more rules to follow that Muslims.

[Rabi'ya]

oooh, i am just going by what PrisonerOf Joy said :)

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum

Yup, sis, brother Azim is correct. I really don't know why PrisonerofJoy would make such an odd comment actually. The commandments and teachings of the Prophets were not to be changed in any way, shape or form, and Jesus, pbuh, upheld them and that is clear in the bible. It was Paul that altered them....well, butchered them is more like it. lol

Wa'alaikum salam,
Hana

[Ghazi]

Salaam

Errors in Bible

Jesus is talking of signs that will happen before the end of the world to his disciples)
(Mat 24:29 NRSV) "Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; *the stars will fall from heaven*, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

(Mat 24:30 NRSV) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.

(Jesus now says to his disciples that their generation will not pass away before the end of the world)

(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.

(Their generation did pass away, but the world didn't end)

[yoshiyahu]

what would convice u to become muslim??? tell us

Probably a supernatural experience of some sort. Like having a dream that I knew was from God, warning me to repent or something like that.

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

We have those warnings already, yoshiyahu. All you have to do is read the Qur'an to see them. :)

Peace :peace:
Hana
:sister:

[azim]

Probably a supernatural experience of some sort. Like having a dream that I knew was from God, warning me to repent or something like that.

The problem with that logic is that not just you should have a supernatural experience, but everyone else in the whole entire world as well, otherwise it wouldnt be fair. If every person in the whole entire world had a supernatural event, either it wouldnt be considered supernatural, or everyone would believe and there would be no point in life. If it's just you who should have that experience then, what makes you so important?

Also, if it was just you who had the dream, how do you know it wasnt simply some bad food? What defines a normal dream from a God-sent one?

Not an attack or anything, just I think thats not good logic to work by when considering if there is a god or not.

[muslimahsays_hi]

Good questions. Sometimes people need a face to pray to I guess, shirk isnt well defined in the bible, obviously the images of jesus pbuh proves that. I just have one question, if you are to stand before your Lord now, being Christian do you really think that will save you from the hell-fire? the Bible has so many contradictions, can you truly trust this theory with your soul? Is Gods' ego so small all he needs is someone to believe in him? Im not trying to bash the Christian faith, no of course not.. but on the day of Judgement, who do you think will save you... ?

[_salam_]

in Christianity.. God is called the all powerful, the all knowing, all justiful, and loving God.. which is what He wants in return not rules for you....

These things that your describing about God are exactly what we believe in Islam. However, I don't see how you could view God as being the Most Just when viewed through the idea that Jesus (pbuh) died for our sins. I mean if I do something wrong and somebody else is punished for my mistake, how is that fair to me or that other person. I would get away with my wrong doing (and according to what you're saying I would actually get rewarded with paradise) and somebody else who is perfectly sinless would get punished a horrible punishment. I don't see how that is fair....maybe you can explain

[yoshiyahu]

Salam Alaikum and Peace:

We have those warnings already, yoshiyahu. All you have to do is read the Qur'an to see them. :)

Peace :peace:
Hana
:sister:

With all due respect, I've been told the same about the Tanach, New Testament, and other writings. While all of them (including the Qu'ran) have parts that I believe are correct - and incorrect, none convince me.

The problem with that logic is that not just you should have a supernatural experience, but everyone else in the whole entire world as well, otherwise it wouldnt be fair. If every person in the whole entire world had a supernatural event, either it wouldnt be considered supernatural, or everyone would believe and there would be no point in life. If it's just you who should have that experience then, what makes you so important?

I'm not saying it would be right or fair - it's just about the only thing that I could say would almost for sure convince me.

Also, if it was just you who had the dream, how do you know it wasnt simply some bad food? What defines a normal dream from a God-sent one?

Probably some foreknowledge or something. For example: The dream saying that on the next day such and such a thing would happen, and it does.

[*Hana*]

Salam and Peace Yoshiyahu:

I'm sure you could be told that by every faith, as every follower of every faith believes they are correct. :) However, personally, I have yet to find anything in the Qur'an that cannot be logically explained. Believe me, I tried. lol I spent a few years trying to defend my faith when I was a Christian.

So, what part(s) in particular do you have trouble believing? Inshallah, we can explain it or provide you with further information.

Wasalam,
Hana

[azim]

I'm not saying it would be right or fair - it's just about the only thing that I could say would almost for sure convince me.

Probably some foreknowledge or something. For example: The dream saying that on the next day such and such a thing would happen, and it does.

So logical or scientific evidence wouldnt convince you?

I guess it's different for every person, I don't think a dream would prove anything to me. It would be too temporary, for example, in a few weeks time, the dream may not be so clear in my mind and I may doubt it. I need something that would be as true today as it is tomorrow as it will be 100 years from now as is was 100 years ago.

Thus, I hold the Quran as my proof.

I don't know if you have ever read it, but it's an amazing book. Anything short of the Quran for me, would not really be proof.

[mansio]

The only amazing thing about the Quran is that we don't know who wrote it.
The number of blunders in it, its simplistic sayings in a number of verses, its poor literary style in some passages, the unability to distinguish between orthodox and heterodox Jewish and Christians beliefs, its lack of theological originality, all that points to a human and not divine origin.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Mansio,
Care to provide evidence to support your allegations?

[*Hana*]

The only amazing thing about the Quran is that we don't know who wrote it.
The number of blunders in it, its simplistic sayings in a number of verses, its poor literary style in some passages, the unability to distinguish between orthodox and heterodox Jewish and Christians beliefs, its lack of theological originality, all that points to a human and not divine origin.

Peace:

WOW, you know what never fails to amaze me, are people who make such comments, and yet, non-muslim, famous, respected literary and religious scholars for centuries claim the writing style is nothing short of genius....a masterpiece. And, even though the challenge in the Qur'an to produce a surah like it has never been done, people continue to make such comments. I would be very interested in seeing your contribution to the challenge, mansio :)

Now, as far as errors go, rather than just making statements, you should back them with proof. Just because you say so, doesn't make it so. Your post was a copout. Like say whatever you want and run....doesn't matter if it's true or not. You are free to have your opinion, of course, but opinions don't mean much if you can't provide reasons for what you say. They become meaningless words. :hmm:

Looking forward to your reply.

Hana

[mansio]

Some blunders of the Quran: man created from clay; there is no doubt in the Quran (2:2) but it contains verses that are ambiguous (3:7); the heart is the seat of thinking (18:57, 22:46); in 3:78 it is stated that everything comes from God and in the following verse that bad things come from oneself; the Jews considered Uzair as son of God; they and Christians took their rabbis and monks as gods (Rabb is another name for God).

Simplistic sayings: the Abu Lahab story; beat one's wife; (3:36) God knows that a boy is not a girl; the proofs of the existence of God is the rain from the sky or the cattle in the fields.

Poor literary style: did God really write such suras as 109 and 111 ?

Unability to distinguish between orthodox and unorthodox scriptures: 7:11 3:49 3:44 5:30 21:51-71 27:16-44 2-102 etc...

Lack of theological originality: what is in the Quran that cannot be found in other scriptures ?

[mansio]

Hana

Fake suras have already been produced. Remember the impact it had in Egypt a few years ago, so that AOL had to withdraw them from the internet.

Could you remind me of the conditions needed to write fake suras ?

[*Hana*]

Poor literary style: did God really write such suras as 109 and 111 ?

Well, I am impressed that you are a fluent arabic speaker. :)

Because I am not an arabic speaker and can only rely on the translated meanings of the Holy Qur'an in English, I will leave this for those who speak the arabic language. Will respond to the rest shortly, inshallah :)

Hana

[sumay28]

Some blunders of the Quran: man created from clay; there is no doubt in the Quran (2:2) but it contains verses that are ambiguous (3:7); the heart is the seat of thinking (18:57, 22:46); in 3:78 it is stated that everything comes from God and in the following verse that bad things come from oneself; the Jews considered Uzair as son of God; they and Christians took their rabbis and monks as gods (Rabb is another name for God).

Simplistic sayings: the Abu Lahab story; beat one's wife; (3:36) God knows that a boy is not a girl; the proofs of the existence of God is the rain from the sky or the cattle in the fields.

Poor literary style: did God really write such suras as 109 and 111 ?

Unability to distinguish between orthodox and unorthodox scriptures: 7:11 3:49 3:44 5:30 21:51-71 27:16-44 2-102 etc...

Lack of theological originality: what is in the Quran that cannot be found in other scriptures ?

May Allah guide you and lift the veil that sheilds your eyes to the light of this beautiful religion. If you still have your quran, please read 2:4, verse 5 and keep reading. Allah is telling you who this book is for. There is no way on God's green earth is a true slave of Allah going to read this and think "hey... mansio from the internet is right... the quran ain't nothing to make a hoopla about." Again, may Allah guide you.

[*Hana*]

Hana

Fake suras have already been produced. Remember the impact it had in Egypt a few years ago, so that AOL had to withdraw them from the internet.

Could you remind me of the conditions needed to write fake suras ?

Ummmm, you proved my point. Fake surahs produced by someone trying to take up the challenge and obviously failed. Honestly, I never heard of that incident, but I'm not saying it didn't happen. It doesn't make a difference though....the fact is they were proven false.

Don't forget, the Qur'an has been memorized by thousands, not just one or two, since it was revealed, and we have the original compiled text. If someone tried to add to it....they would be caught immediately. The challenge is to produce a surah like it...in perfect writing style, with no errors. You don't even have to try to produce a fake surah....just produce one like it. It's never been done, as you have just shown.

Hana

[sumay28]

Not to mention, hana, produce a surah like it in the language that it was delivered. OR.... without even needing to produce a surah... try learning arabic!! See how easy that language is to learn! I know people who have studied in arabic countries for decades and STILL only know about 70% of the language! As opposed to spanish or english.. which would take about 2 years-- TOPS --- to learn. Or hebrew... which is like 6 months. Now, take a language that is that intricate, and produce a surah like that which is in the quran.

[mansio]

Hana

When the Quran challenges people to produce a sura, a few verses, or whatever (I don't know the exact conditions), it is of course assumed that those suras will be fake suras, because they will be like the style of the Quran but they will not be the Quran. I think the Quran only asks the verses to be similar "min mithlihi".

[mansio]

Sumay

Are you telling me that God made a mistake by choosing such a difficult language as Arabic ? What you imply contradicts the Quran being written in clear, easy to understand Arabic.

Btw, if you had lessons on Semitic languages at school you should know that Hebrew and Arabic are related languages and both as hard to learn.

[*Hana*]

Some blunders of the Quran: man created from clay;

To be honest, I'm a little confused about what you're asking here. Are you saying man was not produced from clay? I will assume you are and offer this for your perusal:

"He began the creation of man from dust. Then He made his progeny of an extract of water held in light esteem. Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit and made for you ears and eyes and heart." (As-Sajdah: 7-9)

If we take dust and add water to it, it will become mud. Over time, it will become clay. This is explaining the stages of how man was created. Initially as dust then clay after adding water. If you look at this with a logical mind, you will see that man is dependant on these very things for survival. Earth is required for growing plants for food and water is required for all things, without it, man would die.

"Scientists have analyzed the human body and found that it is composed of 16 substances including oxygen and manganese. These elements are no more than the elements of the earth’s crust. This experiment was not meant for proving the credibility of the Qur'an; rather, it was solely for scientific research purposes...."According to the latest scientific researches, man has been created from clay with all its elements and their inherent properties. It is discovered by a chemical analysis of the human body that a defect occurs in its normal functioning when the quantity of any of these element gets diminished. In such cases, minerals are used to supplement the deficiency and restore normal health." ( as reported by Sheikh Muhammad Mutwalli Ash-Sha`rawi, a prominent Muslim scholar)

Hana

[*Hana*]

Hana

When the Quran challenges people to produce a sura, a few verses, or whatever (I don't know the exact conditions), it is of course assumed that those suras will be fake suras, because they will be like the style of the Quran but they will not be the Quran. I think the Quran only asks the verses to be similar "min mithlihi".

What I meant was, you don't even have to claim they are true....write a verse, in the original arabic language with the same, error-free, style, etc., as the Holy Qur'an and submit it. Claim it to be true or not....it doesn't make a difference. The challenge is to produce one like it. Not to try to pass it as truth. But, you can do that if you want. :)

Hana

[*Hana*]

Sumay

Are you telling me that God made a mistake by choosing such a difficult language as Arabic ? What you imply contradicts the Quran being written in clear, easy to understand Arabic.

Btw, if you had lessons on Semitic languages at school you should know that Hebrew and Arabic are related languages and both as hard to learn.

No, Sumay isn't saying that at all. The Qur'an was delivered in the language of our Prophet, pbuh. Not much point in delivering it in english seeing as english wasn't a language at the time. The beauty of Arabic is that many words are only used for one specific thing. Let me explain. Allah, in arabic, stands alone. It cannot be made masculine, feminine, plural or made compound. Whereas the closest translation in English is God. However, this word can become feminine: goddess; plural: gods; compound: godfather, etc.

So, that's why we say the translated Qur'an, is simply an explanation of meanings, and cannot be translated exactly. That's also why, it's very important to read the Qur'an in the original language of arabic.

And yes, you're right, Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic and others....alll sister languages.

Hana

[sumay28]

Are you kidding me!! Hebrew is a short language, dude. Anyone can learn it in like.. six months. And what I am implying is that to produce such poetry in that language during that time isn't exactly a piece of cake!

[*Hana*]

the heart is the seat of thinking (18:57, 22:46);

The surahs and ayats you list, don't seem to match what you're saying. But, if you're trying to say the Qur'an says we think with our heart, you are mistaken. If you would like to post the verse you are referring to, perhaps it would be more clear. But, as we all know, the heart is the central part of our body....without it....well, we wouldn't be doing much thinking, would we. :)

Hana

[azim]

Some blunders of the Quran: man created from clay; there is no doubt in the Quran (2:2) but it contains verses that are ambiguous (3:7); the heart is the seat of thinking (18:57, 22:46); in 3:78 it is stated that everything comes from God and in the following verse that bad things come from oneself; the Jews considered Uzair as son of God; they and Christians took their rabbis and monks as gods (Rabb is another name for God).

Simplistic sayings: the Abu Lahab story; beat one's wife; (3:36) God knows that a boy is not a girl; the proofs of the existence of God is the rain from the sky or the cattle in the fields.

Poor literary style: did God really write such suras as 109 and 111 ?

Unability to distinguish between orthodox and unorthodox scriptures: 7:11 3:49 3:44 5:30 21:51-71 27:16-44 2-102 etc...

Lack of theological originality: what is in the Quran that cannot be found in other scriptures ?

In response to your accusations: -

Man created from clay.

Can you prove mankind wasnt created from clay? You assume to much knowledge if you think otherwise, if you present this to a learned, skilled doctor or scientist, they would never say "that's incorrect". Do you know what we're made from? Not what we are made OF, but what we are made from?

No Doubt in the Quran.

No doubt in its authenticity. No doubt in the way of errors or contradiction. in 3:7, it mentions verses which are more open to interpretation or discussion (juxtaposed with verses that are completely clear and leave no room for different interpretations). What you're doing is playing with English words with an Arabic Quran. It's a stupid trick and doesn't convince anyone.

Heart is the seat of thinking.

Islam is something that must be considered with the heart as well as the mind. The heart here is not literal, it's the heart you feel with, consider with, trust with. Also, right now, you are using your brain perfectly fine to bring these accusations, yet your heart isn't truly considering any of what you say. Read the verses with your heart, maybe Allah will guide you (insha'Allah).

PS: Will you attack me because I asked you to read with your heart, when you literaly read with your eyes and mind?

Verse 3:78

You quoted the wrong verse. Perhaps you mean 3:165.

(What is the matter with you?) When a single disaster smites you, although you smote (your enemies) with one twice as great, you say: "From where does this come to us?" Say (to them), "It is from yourselves (because of your evil deeds)." And Allah has power over all things.

Either way, it's not a contradiction. You're just trying to make them conflict (anything can be made to conflict if you want it to). Everything comes from Allah since he is Al-Fatir, Al-Khaliq. The Orginator, the Creator.

Abu Lahab story.

What's your point??

Beat ones wife.

This has been explained many places, many times. Go to the main site (www.load-islam.com) and look it up.

Verse 3:36

Read the whole verse and consider what it's saying. I don't feel it's anyones responsiblity to spoon-feed you information and explanation. You call it simplisitic without right, the importance of those lines are seen if considered within the whole story.
The proofs of the existence of God is the rain from the sky or the cattle in the fields.

They are. Although if your over your heart is a covering, why should anything be proof?

Now that I've finished, I have this overwhelming feeling of regret. I didn't explain anything that wasn't obvious to you. Your claim has no basis and doesn't even require to be refuted. I should have just read some more of the Nun's Priest tale or something. Man I just wasted my time.

Peace.

[sumay28]

I have a question for the mansio dude. Excuse me for some of my posts, because I am not a scholar, but it hurts me to see a person on a (pointless) mission to put doubt in the hearts of believers. But I just want to ask you a question. Who do YOU think wrote the quran? And please, give me the whole shabang!! All of your research and conclusion in one post, please.

[*Hana*]

Salam and Peace:

I actually have to agree with Bro Azim.

Everytime I go to one of the ayats you posted, it doesn't match and to be honest, I have no clue what you're trying to say. :hmm:

Perhaps if you posted the ayat and asked the question. At least then you could check to ensure the ayats you post match what you are trying to say. :)

Hana

[sumay28]

[/B]Now that I've finished, I have this overwhelming feeling of regret. I didn't explain anything that wasn't obvious to you. Your claim has no basis and doesn't even require to be refuted. I should have just read some more of the Nun's Priest tale or something. Man I just wasted my time.

Peace.

Brother I don't believe it was a waste of time at all. I enjoyed reading it. You're absolutely right. What puts my hijab in a bunch is that a disbeliever tries to act like they know the quran better than a believer! It is sad that this person has read this book and Allah hasn't allowed him to ponder on it. He only read it to find the faults that it does not have.

[mansio]

What are we discussing about ? A nice piece of Arabic seventh century literature or the very word of God ?
According to Muslims the Quran is the very word of God. It is from that point of view that I am criticizing.
Of course if the Quran were from men as the Bible is (remember the Bible is not considered as the very word of God but as inspired by God), I would accept many of the Quran's shortcomings.
But as it is assumed to be 100% from God I cannot accept that words are put in God's mouth that are unworthy of him.

Can anyone of you produce a school book in which it is stated that man is made from clay/dust/earth ?
On the other hand your history books will tell you that the creation of man from mud is an age-old pagan myth.

Semitic peoples believed that the heart was the seat of thinking and of the soul. That is the reason why that idea is also in the Bible. It is also the reason why it is forbidden to eat blood.
You will notice that God puts a seal on the ears when he does not want men to hear, and on the heart, not on the brains, when he does not want them to think correctly. I'm insisting on that point in the Quran because many Muslims say the Quran is scientific.

The Abu Lahab story and beating one's wife or not could be accepted from men that have a grudge against a neighbour or against women, not from God please !

I do not deny that what we find around us cannot be proofs of the existence of God. But that is the most simplistic set of proofs. See all the deep philosophical discussions that have been conducted by men in the last 2500 years.

I did not post the complete ayas for shortness' sake and because I assumed that all of you knew enough of the Quran.

I'm not thanking people for answering me with links which avoid from thinking by oneself.

A number of elements of the Quran are from Jewish and Christian apocryphal literature and folktales. Everybody knows that. I can see the bad faith of those who pretend they do not understand that.


To answer Sumay:

At medaberet ivrit ? Do you speak Hebrew ? I study religions and languages so if you want to show me how to learn Hebrew in six months just do it. Mazal tov.
I started my first post by saying that the only amazing thing about the Quran is its origin.
We can trace back a great number of elements in the Quran to contemporaneous religious writings and beliefs. But we do not know the details of the composition of the Quran because we have no Arab documents from the time.
The Hadith are oral traditions written down sometimes centuries after the death of the Prophet.

What I think is that Muhammad was in touch with hanifs, or was one himself. He drew from a collection of hanif writings and from discussions with monotheists. He would ponder a text in his head (not heart!) for a few hours or days and then would dictate it to a companion who could write. Maybe they would better the style together according to the rules of Arabic oratory art.
It is just a supposition of mine but it is not impossible to imagine how the Quran was written and by whom.

[azim]

Is it just me or are mansio posts lacking any real argument or point?

The Quran is not just a piece of literature, it is guidance to mankind on how to conduct their affairs. Because of the Quran mankind left the dark ages and entered into the age of science. Because of the Quran a true, and fair system of ruling was created (from ash-shuara to the welfare state).

You come here, criticise the Quran with nothing but your own opinion. I don't even know who you are, what value should your opinion matter to me or anyone else for that matter?

The Quran contains fufilled prohpecies, it contains scientific facts uknown to mankind until the latter part of the 20th century, it contains such an amazing balance of words that it would have been impossible to recreate.

http://www.-----------------------/index2.html - check out 'scientific miracles' and 'mathamatical miracles' especially 'word repititions'.

If you can explain how all these exist..feel free. Until then, your opinion is worthless, pointless and not even worthy of a reply since you have brought no facts.

[sumay28]

slach li. I apologize because I am definitely not familiar with hebrew text. However, to pick up the language is not very difficult in my opinion. I picked up a handfull of the language in a matter of weeks. Arabic has a lot of words for the same thing. It's hard to explain, but depending on the way you use a word, the word is different. It's complicated, but I'm looking forward to learning it.

Check out this website if you want to really talk about it being scientific. There are many scientists who would agree that there are scientific miracles in the Quran.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...cientists.html

I don't think I need to explain much about the things you have mentioned about the clay and about the brain-heart thing. It's just something you should have understood while reading it. Like people have mentioned here... you can read the english translation of the quran, but there are many arabic words in the quran that translates into a whole different meaning. You can only do so much when you translate arabic to english. But it's without a doubt, the word of God. You will not find any contradiction, nor imperfection.

ahhh.. what the heck... why not?

“No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the ‘naseyah’ (front of the head or forelock), a lying, sinful ‘naseyah’!” (Quran, 96:15-16)

The cerebrum controls the highest intellectual functions: thinking, learning, and problem solving. Cerebrum is the largest part of the brain and is located in the top front of your head. The frontal lobe plays a large part in controlling your personality. This is the only part of the brain that can learn lessons in such a complex manner. The frontal lobe is responsible for your motor control. This area also plays a part in the solving of problems, judgment, personality and social/ sexual behavior. believed that the left frontal lobe plays a larger part in language related material while the right side controls more non-language related subject matter.

[mansio]

I do not criticize the Quran with my opinion but with facts I find in it.
It is strange that no one can answer me without relying on links. Is it because you are not used to give your own opinion ?
I'm also waiting for one of the prophecies and one of the scientific miracles of the Quran.

I now answer Muhammad's post:

-- You did not address my question "why isn't the Quranic creation story in school books if it is a scientific fact?".
Your links did not prove that man is created from clay. I've never heard such a thing in my whole life, except that primitive people imagined the story, which was eventually picked up by the Bible and then by the Quran.

-- I'm reading the Quran at the moment and as soon as I find an ambiguous verse I'll let you know. You're not suggesting that the Quran says there aren't any?

-- To me understanding is a characteristic of thinking. You did not elaborate on the Semitic belief that the heart is the seat of thinking/understanding and the soul, associated with the ban on blood. Which also explains, btw, why women are impure during their menstruations.

-- I'm sorry I made a mistake, verses 3:78 are actually verses 4:78-79.

-- It is unknown to Jews and to the Bible that Uzair/Ezra was considered as son of God.

-- I believe it unworthy of God that people make him say such simplistic and mundane things as those I listed. Do you see my point now?

-- You are right that the Quran says "male" and "female" in 3:36. Nevertheless it has been translated "boy" and "girl" by different French and German translations, not only by me. The problem remains the same that it is naively stated that God can distinguish between a male and a female. Incredible news isn't it.

-- If you don't know what is the difference between orthodox and apocryphal scriptures in Judaism and Christianity, it is the same as if you mix up the Quran and one of the fake Qurans that have been written as a parody.

-- If there are many things that are original in the Quran, how come you chose two non-examples? In 4:78-79 you have a contradiction, and the fact that the American constitution has remained the same since the 18th century does not mean that it is divine in origin.
You could have cited abrogation which is something really original. Could you cite other original things in the Quran?

[azim]

I do not criticize the Quran with my opinion but with facts I find in it.

What facts? Everything you've said has been refuted.

It is strange that no one can answer me without relying on links. Is it because you are not used to give your own opinion ?

Links are provided so you can gain knowledge of a subject you know very little about.

I'm also waiting for one of the prophecies and one of the scientific miracles of the Quran.

Do you like being spoon-fed or something? I provided links with miracles and prophecies? I really dont think you are here for debate, rather to give me high-blood pressure contemplating how ignorant people choose to be.

[azim]

Salam. I hope Muhammad doesn't mind me debating some of the issues raised with mansio.

-- You did not address my question "why isn't the Quranic creation story in school books if it is a scientific fact?".
Your links did not prove that man is created from clay. I've never heard such a thing in my whole life, except that primitive people imagined the story, which was eventually picked up by the Bible and then by the Quran.

See, the Quranic creation story is in the school books.

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (21:30)

The distance between all the matter in the universe in the past was zero. It was one united piece, and then it parted. The Big Bang.

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Then, the universe expanded and still does to this day.

Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: "Come both of you willingly or unwillingly." They both said: "We come, willingly." (41:11)

The matter in the universe was smoke like, nebulae, and these because the stars and the planet.

And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (21:30)


This was taught to me in high school a few years ago, and taught by Allah 1400 years ago in the Quran.


As for creation from clay, that may be metaphorical, it may be literal. Allahu alim. It isn't really a point of debate however until you can explain to me how the Quran contained such verses as listed above.

-- To me understanding is a characteristic of thinking. You did not elaborate on the Semitic belief that the heart is the seat of thinking/understanding and the soul, associated with the ban on blood. Which also explains, btw, why women are impure during their menstruations.

Provide sources that this was a pre-Islamic semitic idea, then we'll discuss.

4:78-9 - where is the contradiction? The language seems very clear to me.

[sumay28]

You're giving me an ulcer, dude. Listen. The topic of your post was in a form of a question. You wanted to know why we believe in Islam and in the Quran, and everyone here gave you an answer, backed by some links so that you can see for yourself. You mentioned something about the Quran not having any scientific backbone, so I refered you to a link which states the opinions of MANY well qualified scientists, most of which are/were not Muslim. I am not a scientist. If you are here for debate, you should research what you are debating. So we provided you some literature for you to look at. Now if you are not here for debate, then you are just here just to give people headaches. :hiding:

I'm telling you to research. SERIOUSLY. Go to a Mosque. Talk to an Imam in person. Write a list of questions. Go over them with him. Insha allah he will be willing to answer them for you. More likely than not, he can recite to you the verses in it's original arabic form, and word for word, tell you EXACTLY what they mean. Buddy, look. You're on this message board for a reason. You need to ask yourself, why? Islam is a beautiful religion. More beautiful than anything we have ever seen with our eyes. You also have to ask yourself. Why does this religion get A LOT of negative attention from the media? You will not see one post on this message board promoting ANYTHING that the media says we promote. You can't watch a darn program on TV about Islam without making us look like a bunch of suicide bombers. Yet in Islam suicide, under any circumstance, is forbidden.

Islam is the truth and that is why it is so difficult to accept. Like the dunya saying: "the truth hurts". As I've said in a previous post, may Allah guide you and lift the veil from your heart and open your eyes. After reading your posts I feel pain for you, I do.

[shudnt_have]

satan is here to trick people... to make them fall off.. to test people as you read in Job.. if you think about it satan doesn't want you to have salvation.

Honestly buddy, I would recommend you get a hold of 'comparative religion video' by Dr. Zaik Nair.

Why am I muslim? I am born Muslim Alhamdulilah however, as muslims we should accept Islam because our forfather accepted it etc.. We should always question our OWN BELIEF, so we can avoid blind faith!
Honestly, I have more respect for an anthesist who accepts Islam, than someone who is a born Muslim and just beleives it for the heck of it...:rollseyes

To me Islam make sense logically, scientifically, spiritually, emotionally in every way. The Quran itself is Revelation of WISDOMMMM I mean wisdom in every way, there is answer to EVERY QUESTION you might have! Its beautiful.Alhamdulilah, U got to feel it to say it..
:w:

[sumay28]

Honestly buddy, I would recommend you get a hold of 'comparative religion video' by Dr. Zaik Nair.

Why am I muslim? I am born Muslim Alhamdulilah however, as muslims we should accept Islam because our forfather accepted it etc.. We should always question our OWN BELIEF, so we can avoid blind faith!
Honestly, I have more respect for an anthesist who accepts Islam, than someone who is a born Muslim and just beleives it for the heck of it...:rollseyes

To me Islam make sense logically, scientifically, spiritually, emotionally in every way. The Quran itself is Revelation of WISDOMMMM I mean wisdom in every way, there is answer to EVERY QUESTION you might have! Its beautiful.Alhamdulilah, U got to feel it to say it..
:w:

In reference to PrisonerofJoy and that quote, I believe they were right as far as Satan being here to test people. However, if he's doing everything in his power to knock people off... how come Christianity is so easy? Forgive me, if you are an open-minded Christian reading this. Forgive me.. as I've said on this board, I don't sugarcoat my opinions. But let me tell you. Accepting Jesus as your savior doesn't come with a whole lot of difficulty. Conquering Satan in Christianity is like eating some cherry pie ala mode if you ask me.

[shudnt_have]

What are we discussing about ? A nice piece of Arabic seventh century literature or the very word of God ?
According to Muslims the Quran is the very word of God. It is from that point of view that I am criticizing.
Of course if the Quran were from men as the Bible is (remember the Bible is not considered as the very word of God but as inspired by God), I would accept many of the Quran's shortcomings.
But as it is assumed to be 100% from God I cannot accept that words are put in God's mouth that are unworthy of him.

Hi buds, From your question it seems that you HAVENT read the Quran, no wonder, why are you questioning its authencity.

Up on reading the Quran who will discover that it is full of parables and Warnings about different people of the Book that existed! Quran has lessons for us, how to avoid evil and why/how/when we were made.-It clearly states our Purpose in life, and what we are expected of us as Beleivers, what we should beleive in.
OK, so you say that, it is words of some men? Do you think it makes logically for some historians to RECORD everything down from the time of Adam [peace be up on him] to the time of our last prophet Mohammad [peace be up on him]..remembering that...
Who could have had the EXACT details of what happened to Prophet Lot, Thamud, Prophet shohaib, Prophet Yusuf[peace be up on all of them]??? and if you speak to scholar of chrisitinatly they still agree..that the DETAILS ARE CORRECT.You dont think, some so called Muslim guy stole the chrisitan or jew scripture and edited his own words to it? God Forbid!

If so, what about the scientific revelation, today's scientics are still In the PROCESS OF Discovering:genes, how plants are both males and females...can you find out that in Bible FOR ME PLEASE!...if you are again thinking that one or two muslims must be smart enough to guess that...but how many of their guessing can be right?? 3, 4, 5, there ARE HUNDREDS OF SCIENTIFIC miracles in the Quran...

.Here, i didnt use any reference or links either...Pop any questions if you like. Please feel free.

Peace be with you. May you see the guidance whenever it is ordained for you.:)

[shudnt_have]

However, if he's doing everything in his power to knock people off... how come Christianity is so easy? Forgive me, if you are an open-minded Christian reading this. Forgive me.. as I've said on this board, I don't sugarcoat my opinions. But let me tell you. Accepting Jesus as your savior doesn't come with a whole lot of difficulty. Conquering Satan in Christianity is like eating some cherry pie ala mode if you ask me.

Well I only quoted that specific quote because I wanted to answer his over all post..if possible..I do agree to what is said, Since Shaytan doesnt want himself to be all alone the Hell fire, he is here to astray the righteous by whispering in their hearts the love of this duniya. so yeh..he is right to begin with..
What I dont see with our Christain brothers and sisters is that, "why do we do beleive that Jesus pbuh was crucified? I dont see it, If HE WAS SON OF GOD, astafiruallah, Couldnt he save himself?? :rollseyes He cured the blamed, he give the life to the death..etc..CUDNT BE SAVE HIMSELF???
After all, The God Almightly gave him all these powers, couldnt he defeated the death? and "forgive" our sins without being crucified?:rollseyes

[sumay28]

Well I only quoted that specific quote because I wanted to answer his over all post..if possible..I do agree to what is said, Since Shaytan doesnt want himself to be all alone the Hell fire, he is here to astray the righteous by whispering in their hearts the love of this duniya. so yeh..he is right to begin with..
What I dont see with our Christain brothers and sisters is that, "why do we do beleive that Jesus pbuh was crucified? I dont see it, If HE WAS SON OF GOD, astafiruallah, Couldnt he save himself?? :rollseyes He cured the blamed, he give the life to the death..etc..CUDNT BE SAVE HIMSELF???
After all, The God Almightly gave him all these powers, couldnt he defeated the death? and "forgive" our sins without being crucified?:rollseyes

Another thing that amazes me is that in the bible, Jesus falters in faith. He loses faith and he's the son of God?? He prays to God for his mercy and God did not answer his own son's prayer? Astafiruallah!!! People to this day crucify themselves for Jesus and you don't see them losing faith.. and these are merely followers, thousands of years after the prophets. I can go on and on and on about Christianity and it's flaws, but I don't want to go too far. My love for Allah and just the thought of how many people believe that the most exalted one has a son, does get me a little heated. I do not want to offend

[shudnt_have]

Another thing that amazes me is that in the bible, Jesus falters in faith.........God did not answer his own son's prayer? Astafiruallah!!!

:sl:
SubhaAllah, Sometimes the truth is there, however the path of reach that "truth"/evidence may differ from person to person...Let me elaborated,

as Christains most likely that even Jesus pbuh's faith fluctuated,, now let's back up a little, what is faith, beleiving in unseen, where your eyes dont see it but things makes sense intectually! Right? If Jesus pbuh was son of God[God Forbid] then wouldnt HIS FAITH WOULD BE SOLID FIRM??

Again, Christian beleives indirectly refers to Islamic beleif which states, "yes, Jesus (pbuh) was a Human just like us, however a strong beleiver who knew the truth well that he Preached the Oneness of God to his people! Yet his powers were all given by God Almightly alone, he isnt son of...or ever had a father..."

All he is a strong beleiver, like us whose faith must have faltered....isnt it possible? Before I say something wrong, I would like to check my opinion first!

My love for Allah and just the thought of how many people believe that the most exalted one has a son, does get me a little heated. I do not want to offend

As Allah swt says, "Invite somebody to the right path, it is their take whether or not, they will accept the religion, our duty is to INVITE, GUidance comes from Allah subhallah wah tallah comes alone"
:w:




:w:

[mansio]

Azim

Excuse me I didn't manage yet to answer your post #59.
You are the first Muslim I meet on a forum who has the courage to say that the creation from clay may be metaphorical.

I used the phrase "Quranic creation story" at the moment when I was talking about the "man created from clay" myth. It refered to that myth when I said it could not be found in school books. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
Anyway let's see your "scientific" verses:

21:30 "Those who do not believe have they not seen that the heavens and the earth were in one piece, then we separated them?".
The separation of elements at Creation is mentioned several times in the first chapter of the Bible. It is also found in the Babylonian poem Enuma Elish.
It has of course nothing to do with the Big Bang. At that moment there was no earth in a compact mass with the sky. Earth appeared much later after the Big Bang.

51:47 "And the heaven? We built it strong and it is we who gave it a vast/wide expanse"
There are different ways to translate "wa'innaa lamuusi3uuna". But I don't see where it says "steadily".
That heaven is vast or wide is known by all cultures.

41:11 Nice example of animism. The earth and heaven can talk. That's a big scientific fact.

21:30 "...and we made from water all living things"
In Quranic embryology water is semen. It can of course also refer to rain that as everybody knows, is related to plant growing. Another scientific discovery.

4:78 "...Say: everything comes from God..."
4:79 "...all/every bad thing(s) that happen to you come from yourself..."
No comment.

[mansio]

Sumay

Nice of you to tell me I should do research. The first research I'm going to do is to find the feminine of "dude" in English.
As for Quranic research, don't worry, I have at the moment on my desk among heaps of documents, the Qur'aanu l-Kariimu bir-rasmi l-3uthmaanii.

[sumay28]

Sumay

Nice of you to tell me I should do research. The first research I'm going to do is to find the feminine of "dude" in English.
As for Quranic research, don't worry, I have at the moment on my desk among heaps of documents, the Qur'aanu l-Kariimu bir-rasmi l-3uthmaanii.

Hey i call everyone dude. Even tho i didn't notice you were a girl... I'm still calling you dude... dude.

whatever.... I'm done with you. I can go back and forth with you but unfortunately, I havn't got the patience. May Allah reward those of you who will continue to debate with this person.

And as far as Jesus in the bible goes... these are just my opinions from what I've read in the bible. Isa (as) should have had 'aqeedah. Allah gave him the power to raise the dead! I think that would be enough for someone to be pretty sure. I understand what Christians are saying about Jesus (AS) coming down as a human, with human imperfections, but obviously he was a lot different than a human... even as a human... if you know what I mean. I was a Christian for 6 or 7 years. I know all the reasoning behind their beliefs. I am not trying to sound intolerant. My dad's Christian. It makes me sad that Christianity is just so marketable! It's such a test for me to see my dad doesn't even have tawheed. As muslims you know how serious that is!

[Tasneem]

[MOUSE]By the mercy of Allah i was born muslim[/MOUSE]

Well we all were born muslim but you know what i mean...

SaLaMz

[azim]

21:30: - The separation of elements at Creation is mentioned several times in the first chapter of the Bible. It is also found in the Babylonian poem Enuma Elish.It has of course nothing to do with the Big Bang. At that moment there was no earth in a compact mass with the sky. Earth appeared much later after the Big Bang.

You say the Quran was copied from the Bible, how did then the Quran manage to pick the ONE VERSE about creation that is scientifically accurate and ignore the rest of it? That isn't a rhetorical question, I'd like a reply insha'Allah :D.

51:47

Al-moo-see-oon implies expanding. (the expander, if you'd to be fussy).

41:11 Nice example of animism. The earth and heaven can talk. That's a big scientific fact.

Nice example of dodging the subject there.

21:30 "...and we made from water all living things"

It's still scientifically correct.

See, if you view it verse by verse. Yeah, it could be chance. Yeah, it could be coincidence. If you view all the ones I mentioned (and look at others in the Quran), you see, coincidence is not an option.


"Wherever you may be, death will overtake you, even if you should be within towers of lofty construction. But if good comes to them, they say "This is from Allah" and if evil befalls them "They say this from you". Say "All thing are from Allah. So what is the matter with those people that they cannot understand any statement"

"What comes to you of good is from Allah, but what comes to you of evil, it is from yourself". And we have sent you to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as a witness".

Allah says EVERYTHING is from Allah, then says that Good is from Allah (as blessings from his mercy) and evil arises due to oneself and ones nature. Maybe it would have been clearer to say 'what comes to you of evil, it is because of yourselves'. Since you claim to speak arabic, I'm sure you understand the word 'min' enough to come to that conclusion by yourself.

Yet, quite fittingly, like Allah said "What is the matter with those people that they cannot understand any statement?".

PEACE OUT - A-TOWN (dances off stage a'la Usher in 'Yeah', you can imagine Lil Jon in the background as well if it makes you happy).

[sumay28]

PEACE OUT - A-TOWN (dances off stage a'la Usher in 'Yeah', you can imagine Lil Jon in the background as well if it makes you happy).

;D lol

it's like putting a python through a sewing needle.

[shudnt_have]

Sumay

Nice of you to tell me I should do research. The first research I'm going to do is to find the feminine of "dude" in English.
As for Quranic research, don't worry, I have at the moment on my desk among heaps of documents, the Qur'aanu l-Kariimu bir-rasmi l-3uthmaanii.

I will save you some sweat, its 'dudette', in case you were wondering:love:

[mansio]

Shudnthave

Thanks for your information. I'm a 58 year old Frenchman and i was looking for the feminine of "dude" to return the favor to Sumay. She's a girl, isn't she?
I've never seen "dudette" in English.
"-ette" is a French suffix we use to give a feminine gender and/or a feminine diminutive to a noun.
Most English nouns have no feminine and it might be the case here.

[mansio]

Azim

In the Quran and the Bible there are of course true scientific facts. They reflect the science that was known at the time and they have nothing to do with divine inspiration. There must be more scientific facts in the Quran as it is only 1400 years old as compared with the Bible.

Do you mean that separating the earth from heaven, is scientific thinking?
The first pagan religions had a very anthropomorphic view of God and they saw God like a man who pushes apart the element of his creation with his hands.
It is sometimes that way of thinking that has influenced the Bible and the Quran.
One other good example is man created from mud which derives from the sorcerer who molds a statue of a man from clay and insufflates his magical power to animate it.

There is no article "al" in "lamuusi3uuna". The "la-" is an intensive prefix.

41:11) The preceding verse 41:10 illustrates what i told you about the god that orders the different elements of his creation with his hands. He takes a mountain and sets it on the earth as a pillar.
The next verse 41:12 refers to the "seven heavens", again a well known concept to be found in the Bible and Babylonian pagan cosmology.
I admit that i cannot explain the smoke from verse 11. Even if it were an amazing scientific insight (supposing it isn't a sheer coincidence) it won't explain away the many other unscientific verses.

[sumay28]

Hey i slept on it.... i'm going to keep the fight alive, brotha/sista/whateva


He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. (2:269)


It is Allah Who created the seven heavens and of the earth the same number, the Command descending down through all of them, so that you might know that Allah has power over all things and that Allah encompasses all things in His knowledge. (Qur'an, 65:12)


He has let loose the two seas, converging together, with a barrier between them they do not break through. (Qur'an, 55:19-20)

When Allah desires to guide someone, He expands his breast to Islam. When He desires to misguide someone, He makes his breast narrow and constricted as if he were climbing up into the sky. That is how Allah defiles those who have no faith. (Qur'an, 6:125)

You would have supposed them to be awake, whereas in fact they were asleep. We moved them to the right and to the left, and, at the entrance, their dog stretched out its paws. If you had looked down and seen them, you would have turned from them and run, and have been filled with terror at the sight of them. (Qur'an, 18:18)

The above refers to the people of the cave who remained asleep for hundreds of years

Yes, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers. (Qur'an, 75:4)

And since you think that us being formed from clay doesn't hold any ground..
When the human body is examined today, it may be discovered that many elements present on the earth are also to be found in the body. Living tissues contain 95% carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus and sulphur, with a total of 26 different elements.91 In another verse of the Qur'an we are told:

We created man from an extract of clay. (Qur'an, 23:12)

The Arabic word "sulala," translated as "extract" in the verse, means "representative example, essence." As we have seen, the information revealed in the Qur'an 1,400 years ago confirms what modern science tells us-the fact that the same elements are employed in human creation as those found in the soil.

[sumay28]

“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.” (An-Nahl: 125)

Mansio-

After going over some things that I have posted, I definitely want to post here that I apologize if any of it seemed to be rude or disrespectful to your opinions, or to you personally. My passion and lack of being able to put my thoughts into words may appear childish. It is not in a muslim's character come across as hostile, and I hope that is not the way my messages, or anyone else's here, came across. I commend you that you have taken an interest in the Qur'an, even with your misunderstanding it. I pray that you will find the truth that it contains, and I hope that your journey searching finds you peace. I've been practicing Islam (correctly) for only 4 months. Because of my past, I still have to shake off some of my delinquent character. I'm still on my mission to build my character as a true muslim, insha'allah. Please look past the exterior layer of Islam. Islam is a beautiful religion. Regardless of the negative attention it gets, it teaches peace, compassion, morality, love, mercy... it's just plain beautiful, dude. The Quran and Sunnah are what I would like to call, our instructions manual. We are convinced to be muslim because we believe it explains the meaning of life.

[ummAbdillah]

In the Quran and the Bible there are of course true scientific facts. They reflect the science that was known at the time and they have nothing to do with divine inspiration. There must be more scientific facts in the Quran as it is only 1400 years old as compared with the Bible.

salaam
Do you mind telling us what the "scientific facts" of the bible are?
:peace:

[azim]

[quote=mansio;146757]Azim

In the Quran and the Bible there are of course true scientific facts. They reflect the science that was known at the time and they have nothing to do with divine inspiration. There must be more scientific facts in the Quran as it is only 1400 years old as compared with the Bible.

I disagree with this statement. The science of the 6th century sometimes went completey against what the Quran said. For example, the Pagans believed that the sky rested on the mountains, in the Quran, Allah says: -

"He has created the heavens without any pillars that you see" 31:10.

This corrective manner of the Quran is common and I can cite other examples if you'd like to. If the Quran reflected the science of the time, then why should it argue against it in some lines?

Do you mean that separating the earth from heaven, is scientific thinking? The first pagan religions had a very anthropomorphic view of God and they saw God like a man who pushes apart the element of his creation with his hands.

To be honest, I'm not sure what you mean by God being antropomorphic. For example, Surah Ikhlaas very clearly tells us that God is nothing like mankind, and if he is described has having 'hands' then we should never imagine his 'hands' to be anything like ours.

I admit that i cannot explain the smoke from verse 11. Even if it were an amazing scientific insight (supposing it isn't a sheer coincidence) it won't explain away the many other unscientific verses.

You have already stated that 'creation from clay' as supposedly unscientific, however it is not unscientific, simply not scientifically provable. It is lies in between.

For example, it says Jinn are made from smokeless fire. If we contemplate the idea of Jinn, and imagine fire which does not give off heat nor light, how would be aware of its prescence?

In the same way, clay, talks perhaps about our basic compound. Afterall, arent we just water and dust?

PS: I'd like to apologise if in earlier posts I have been offensive or rude. I was simply retaliating to what I perceived to be an attitude of arrogrance and disrespect. I much prefer debating issues in more friendly way, which I hope we can continue. I apologise once again, and hope you excuse on account of my youthful exuberance.

Peace.

[MuslimaH~SistaH]

I like the Thread,Manshallah!

[azim]

Those books are not recognized as inspired scriptures. They are called apocrypha.

I'm gonna have to pick on that statement. First of all, and correct me if I'm wrong, nowhere have I read anywhere that any of the four gospels were inspired by the Holy Ghost. On top of that, we don't even know who the authors of the 4 Gopsels are. The names are in no way proof they were in fact who they say they were.

The Gospels are very similar to the hadith muslims use, however I can assure you that in no way would the Gospels every be accepted as even 'daif' hadith, they would completely be ignored.

Infact, how trustworthy are they? For example, lets look at one of Matthew's verses.

In Matthew 2:15 he says: -

"and was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

The last segment "Out of Egypt have I called my son" is from the Old Testament (Hosea 11:1), Matthew uses it to imply Jesus' divinity, however, if we look at the verse quoted: -

"When Israel was a child I loved him, out of Egypt I called my son, The more I called them, the farther they went from me, Sacrificing to the Baals and burning incense to idols."

How trustworthy is he! Intentionally playing with scripture like that.

I understand you've made the claim since the Bible is inspired by God, rather then written by it, human short-comings are expected and not denied. Yet, when the very autors from who you derive your knowledge are called in question, how will you explain it?

PS: We had someone on this forum who used to worship Baal. Weird. Wonder where he is? :rollseyes

[mansio]

Azim

Christians say that the Gospels are inspired by God (call it the Holy Ghost if you like) as Muslims say the Quran is the very Word of God.
Both statements have to be accepted by faith.
I'm surprised that you have never heard of the Bible being inspired. Millions of Christian pages are just a few clicks away from your keyboard.

University scholars who are researching the Quran have some ideas as who could have written it, but as precise historical proofs are missing they can only have guesses.
It is the same with the Gospels although scholars have more clues. All we know is that the author of Matthew is a Jewish convert, the author of Mark could be the John Mark mentioned in the NT, the author of Luke is a pagan convert who could be Luke, a companion of Paul, and the author of John is unknown.
The Gospels are not historical reports but religious books written to spread a message (the meaning of "gospel" in Greek).

When I said the Bible is inspired by God I was of course refering to the beliefs of Jews and Christians.
I personally believe that all revelations are man-made, until of course someone gives me proofs of a divine origin.

[mansio]

Shudn'thave (re your post #74)

You shouldn't have said that I haven't read the Quran. I've read it a couple of times those last years but I must reckon I got quickly bored with it.
Now I have decided to have a more serious look at it.
I'm reading it again. Everytime I come across an interesting verse I open my Arabic Quran and write down the verse in Arabic. Then I compare the Arabic with various English, French or German translations when there is a need for better understanding. Of course it is a rather slow process but it helps me with literary Arabic at the same time.

All the things in the Quran that you are telling me are the basics one finds in most religious scriptures. What is your purpose in saying that? That there is no originality in the Quran? I think I knew it already.

No historian believes in the existence of Adam. Could you tell me for example, where and when he is supposed to have lived?
I'm still waiting for one scientific miracle in the Quran. I said "in the Quran" not in far-fetched apological links.

[azim]

[quote=mansio;149564]Azim

Christians say that the Gospels are inspired by God (call it the Holy Ghost if you like) as Muslims say the Quran is the very Word of God.
Both statements have to be accepted by faith.

I think you missed the point I was making. The four gospels never claimed to be 'inspired' by God, the Holy Ghost or anyone else. Matthew even says he is only writing the books since he has a better understanding (we have to tke his word for it), not that he was inspired by God.

University scholars who are researching the Quran have some ideas as who could have written it, but as precise historical proofs are missing they can only have guesses.

That's nice, maybe they'll come to realise it was written by Allah.

It is the same with the Gospels although scholars have more clues. All we know is that the author of Matthew is a Jewish convert, the author of Mark could be the John Mark mentioned in the NT, the author of Luke is a pagan convert who could be Luke, a companion of Paul, and the author of John is unknown.

It isn't really the same with the Gospels since WE KNOW the source of the Quran, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in Arabia 1400 years ago. The authors of the Gospel are much more ambiguous.

When I said the Bible is inspired by God I was of course refering to the beliefs of Jews and Christians. I personally believe that all revelations are man-made, until of course someone gives me proofs of a divine origin.

That doesn't really make sense. Also, why don't you believe Islam was 'inspired' by God when it is truer to the beliefs 'inspired' to Moses, Abraham, Jesus etc...

Your beliefs don't really make sense to me. You're saying you believe in God but not his revelations? Or do you not believe in God? Would you class yourself as a Christian?

[mansio]

Azim

As a Muslim you are in no position to decide if the New Testament is inspired by God or not.
Let the Christians decide by themselves.

What do you mean by the Quran is truer to the beliefs of Moses, Abraham and Jesus as they are described in the Bible ?
As Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted we don't even know what is compared with the Quran.
Adam is a myth and has never existed. So you imply that if the Quran gives more or better details on an imaginary being the Quran is truer than the Bible.

[sumay28]

Azim

As a Muslim you are in no position to decide if the New Testament is inspired by God or not.
Let the Christians decide by themselves.

What do you mean by the Quran is truer to the beliefs of Moses, Abraham and Jesus as they are described in the Bible ?
As Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted we don't even know what is compared with the Quran.
Adam is a myth and has never existed. So you imply that if the Quran gives more or better details on an imaginary being the Quran is truer than the Bible.

Subhanallah! A myth! :crickey: I really don't understand this "inspired by God" thing. How is God going to "inspire" someone to quote God and make him seem imperfect? How is he going to create the Universe and "change his mind" and "regret"? :astagfiru

[sumay28]

Masha allah Muhammad.

Mansio, buddy, I don't know what to tell ya. It's very clear you're here to cause us atheritis for makin' us type up all of this stuff, dude.. It's very clear that you are an elephant sitting very comfortably under a falling tree, and only God can push you out of the way. All we can do is make du'a for you that allah removes the veil over your heart. You are just someone that is increasing our faith, in the fact that Allah will guide whom he pleases. We see is something simple and clear as the truth, while at this time Allah is only allowing you to look through a stained glass.

[azim]

[quote=mansio;149787]Azim

As a Muslim you are in no position to decide if the New Testament is inspired by God or not. Let the Christians decide by themselves.

Two things to point out here.

1)The authors of the NT gospels NEVER CLAIMED TO BE INSPIRED - EVER! FULL STOP! It's FACT, not my opinion. I have stated this twice and failed to grasp the concept of a FACT.

2)It's hyprocritical to say 'don't talk about Christian holy books, you're a muslim' then to come here and talk about Muslim scripture, without being muslim. Wallahi, I have no problem with you coming here and talking about the Quran, but why the double standards? Again, NOT RHETORICAL. Answer my question.

[afriend]

Salams..I think It is Allah's will what happens to the non-muslims, those deserving of guidance will recieve guidance..........That's all I can say!

[sumay28]

Anyway, the muslims do not deny The Bible as being the word of God. Only it went through a game of "telephone" with the translation, and has been altered for man's own devious benefit.

[safwana]

very easy? well in our religion CHRISTianity hardships is one of those things that we are to deal with... I guess may I ask have yall ever had hardships I mean you said it is very easy...?

in islam there is a solution to all your problems that is why practicing islam is easy realigion to follow.

[mansio]

Azim

Christians have decided that all scriptures are inspired by God and that Jesus is God.
You and me do not agree with their opinion. What we think is one thing and what they think is another. We think what we think and they think what they think. My God I'm now speaking in Quranic style !

[azim]

Azim

Christians have decided that all scriptures are inspired by God and that Jesus is God.
You and me do not agree with their opinion. What we think is one thing and what they think is another. We think what we think and they think what they think. My God I'm now speaking in Quranic style !

You said earlier : -

Of course if the Quran were from men as the Bible is (remember the Bible is not considered as the very word of God but as inspired by God)

Is this your opinion or you stating the opinion of others?

[sumay28]

If the scriptures revealed in the past were distorted by their followers, it only proves that God could not protect his word from corruption.
And why would those followers distort the scriptures from God ?

That's a common question. And one of the articles of faith in Islam is to believe in Qadar. Everything that happens takes place according to what has been written for it.

Another article of faith is belief in his scriptures, specifically that they were free from any imperfection or errors at the time of their revelation. It is not for us to really question why Allah allowed the scriptures to be tampered with. The Quran in itself promises to be protected by Allah from change or tampering

[mansio]

Sumay

You are pointing to another problem in the Quran : the notion of qadar.
Everything that happens takes place according to what has been written for it. Written by whom? By God of course.
That means there is no freedom of choice for humans, everything has been decided in advance.
When I mentioned verse 4:78 "Everything comes from God" and in the next verse "Everything bad that happens to you comes from yourself" I was told that, yes, there are things that do not come from God so those two verses are not a contradiction.
You can't have qadar and at the same time no qadar!

I like your sentence "it is not for us to question why Allah allowed the scriptures to be tampered with". It will not make that problem disappear.

[afriend]

Muhammad

We won't spend to much time on one alleged scientific discovery in the Quran, as they are many others to tackle.
We could also open a discussion on the scientific blunders in the Quran.

The scientific discoveries did not come to Muslims but they had to look for them.
True scientists did not find a single of their discoveries owing to the reading of the Quran!
What Muslims do with that search for science in the Quran is similar to what Christians did when they combed through the Old Testament for "proofs" of Jesus and of his divinity.

Why should God protect his revelation in the Quran and not his revelation in the former scriptures ? Why then are they mentioned so many times in the Quran if God had decided to have them corrupted ?

Dr. Zakir Naik has been there done that........Why don't you listen to some of his answers to the scientific blunders in the Quran and what he hath said about the bible

qoute: "How can the SON be older than the father....not even in hollywood movies you cannot do that" And there's more where that came from........

Just go 2 this link and download his speeches: http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?...titleA&show=25

Then click on the 'ultimate dialogue..............between.........' It may be a bit long but it is well worth it!!!!! MAY ALLAH BLESS HIM IN EVERY WAY AMEEN.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

We won't spend to much time on one alleged scientific discovery in the Quran, as they are many others to tackle.
We could also open a discussion on the scientific blunders in the Quran.

Be my guest. Every single one of these claims without exception has already been refuted by Muslims. You haven't brought anything new.

The scientific discoveries did not come to Muslims but they had to look for them.

This point was refuted in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...mbryology.html

Why should God protect his revelation in the Quran and not his revelation in the former scriptures ? Why then are they mentioned so many times in the Quran if God had decided to have them corrupted ?

For previous revelations, God entrusted the duty of their preservation to their nation. But for the Qur'an, Muslims do not have the duty of its preservation but its propagation as the Qur'an is a revelation for all humanity (previous prophets were sent specifically to their nations).

Regards

[samina1]

alhuakbarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......... mashallah

[sapphire]

to add to what i said somewhere else on the thread......happeneings and miriacles that happen to us now may also strnghthen our faith if we are already muslims inshallah.......

[Abu Zakariya]

mansio

Either the Quran is the Word of God for all humankind and for all times or it is the work of men that knew only about their surroundings.
If such an important saying, that Jews believed Ezra was the son of God, refers to local Jewish heretical beliefs, then it is one more proof of what I said about the origins of the Quran.(posts #65 and #93).

I am sorry if what is written in the Quran has to be corrected by Muslim scholars. Much of it has already been bettered by hadith to such an extent that one can think that Muslims have not only the Quran but two or three other Holy Books.

These two statements of yours makes your igorance of a fundamental Islamic principle painfully obvious.
It is generally known among Muslims that the Qur'an can't be understood without the interpretation of the Prophet and his companions. It is actually a part of the islamic 'aqeedah that the Qur'an wasn't revealed to the Prophet without also the explanation of the particular verse.
So, it is rather amusing to see that you - some kind of "expert" that is surprised by the lack of knowledge Muslims have about some verses that allegedly copied of of Jewish legends and what not - don't understand this fundamental part of Islam.

The reason for the fact that the verses of the Qur'an was revealed along with the explanation (while He could've revealed them so everyone could understand the verses from the beginning) is so that we Muslims know that everything has to be explained by the Prophet. We can't interpret aspect of Islam without checking with the Sunnah of the Prophet and his companions. When someone doesn't know this, he is confused by some verses because he interprets them in his own way. So this statement of yours:

I knew the link about Uzayr before. God could have said "the Jews from Arabia say Uzayr is son of God". God decided to say "the Jews". My discussions rest on the words of the Quran and not on what the Quran could have said.
Asad's opinion on Ezra may be true but I prefer to stick with the Quran and not with the opinion of an apostate.

reeks with ignorance.
The Qur'an does say that it refers to the Jews in Arabia at that time, but because you don't know that there is an explanation to the verse makes you say something like that, i.e. "My discussions rest on the words of the Quran and not on what the Quran could have said."
Again, the Qur'an is explained by the Sunnah. This is the Qur'an. The words + the explanation. The one goes with the other. So of course you are dumbfound when you don't know this and try to find your own explanation.
It wasn't Asad's opinion by the way, he was mentioning what was said by ibn Abbas (the Prophet's uncle).

Some verses in the Quran are taken from books invented by men and not from the Bible.
I'm a little bit surprised than you seem not to know those verses. Here are a few of them: 5:31 is from Jewish legends, 3:49 from the Gospel of Thomas, 27:17-44 from Jewish legends, 19:29-33, 3:37 from the Protevangelion of James.

Refuted here: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/

You and me do not agree with their opinion. What we think is one thing and what they think is another. We think what we think and they think what they think. My God I'm now speaking in Quranic style!

It is really pathetic to see someone make fun of a literally masterpiece that he hasn't got a clue about. Do you even know classical arabic? Do you even know the tafsir behind the verse? It is like if I were to make fun of Shakespear's litterature without knowing the English language.

Let me tell you something about the background for the verse.

Since Muhammad's message was beginning to attract more and more people, and the efforts from the Pagans to stop him weren't working, they came up with the idea of worshipping Allah alone one year, and the Pagan gods during the next year.
Allah then revealed:

Say: Oh Kafirûn (meaning: Say to these unbelievers that came up with this proposition)

I do not worship what you worship, nor do you worship that which I worship (meaning: I am not worshipping what you are worshipping. I worship Allah alone, while you are worshipping Pagan gods besides Him)

And I shall not worship that which you worship nor will you worship that which I worship (meaning: And it will stay like that. Your proposition is rejected, I will keep worshipping Allah alone and you will keep worshipping your gods)

To you be your religion, and to me my religion (meaning: You keep your religion to yourself without trying to mix it with mine, and I'll do the same)

In other words, the verse is saying:

I reject your proposition. I worship Allah and you worship others beside Him. We will keep it that way.

There's nothing wrong with the surah, it is your ignorance of the arabic and the background of the verse that is lacking.
The fact that you make fun of this and imply that the surah lacks in beauty is pathetic, since you don't even have knowledge of the language of the surah. It is as if I was to complaing about the grammar in an English grammar book, without knowing English.

[POBook]

Hello Abu Zakariya,

I sense mansio mad you a little angry:rant:

[Abu Zakariya]

POBook

Hehe, you are right. I'm from southern Europe (former Yugoslavia, in the area of Italy, Greece etc.) and we are known for our harsh temperament. I have to work on that.

It's just that I sense some arrogance from mansio, he seems to think he is enlightened and that he is some kind of expert on the Qur'an, when he doesn't even know arabic. I couldn't keep my cool when I saw him criticizing the Qur'ans literally style, although he doesn't even know arabic.

[mansio]

Abu Zakariya

Drago mi je.
If the Quran cannot be understood without the interpretation of the Prophet and his companions, then it is not in clear Arabic and it is not perfect because it is incomplete.
That reminds me of the Catholic Church former teaching that the faithful should not read from the Bible but that they should only hear of it through a priest.
It looks like Muslims have actually more than one holy book.

[azim]

Mansio, the serious problem in all of your debates is that they are based on your opinions rather than facts.

Let's bring up some of the arguments you have presented.

Everything that happens takes place according to what has been written for it. Written by whom? By God of course.
That means there is no freedom of choice for humans, everything has been decided in advance.

You're opinion presented in fact form.

God knows what we are going to do in the future. We could not do anything without God's permission but he has given us the permission to do as we will. There are several books and internet articles I could direct to you on the subject, but you're not going to read them (God forbid you read something outside your little world of ignorance) so why should I bother posting them.

The scientific discoveries did not come to Muslims but they had to look for them. True scientists did not find a single of their discoveries owing to the reading of the Quran!

First of all, that doesn't really make sense. How can 'scientific discoveries' come to someone. Either way, the miracles in the Quran have been there since it was first revealed.

Also, ther have been many muslim scientists in the past 1000 years who's great scientific discoveries stemed from their understanding of the Quran.

Jabir bin Hayyan, Ibn Zuhr, Az-Zahrawi, Ibn Firnas to name a few of these great scientists.

So, isn't your statement simply opinion rather than fact, based on nothing but your own assumptions.

You and me do not agree with their opinion. What we think is one thing and what they think is another. We think what we think and they think what they think. My God I'm now speaking in Quranic style !

You've talked about this verse several times, and just like always, you think your opinion of the verse is enough to declassify it as the word of God. Rather than this, why not attempt to bring a piece of literature that is as good as the Quran?

To make it short with Oktar aka Harun Yahya, a man who believes in creationism can be a good religious person, but he is definitely not a scientist.

That is your opinion (mm...are we seeing a pattern here). Someone who believes in 'creationism' can't be a good scientist (I assume you mean Islamic creationism here) yet this is not a fact.

For example, Isaac Newton, most would class him as the most influential and greatest scientist of all time (Einstien, though ground-breaking, would not be as influential as him, even with the atomic bomb) and he was a creationist.

So a scientist can't be a creationist? Isn't true is it.

If the scriptures revealed in the past were distorted by their followers, it only proves that God could not protect his word from corruption.

It 'proves' does it, I don't see proof anywhere. I see..guess what, your opinion, and guess what, it's based on no facts at all..once again.

In closing, I'd like to apologise in advance for the comments I am about to make, since I do not like making personal attacks, but I feel in this case, it is neccessary.

You suck.

As a side note, I'd also like to mention that you are not debating, nor arguing. You are throwing opinions against facts and displaying a front that gives the impression of logical, rationale debate when in actual fact, it is the opposite. From the beginning of this debate I felt that your arguments were completely pointless to argue against, I did anyway since I was wondering where the debate would lead (and I also enjoy debating). Many people on this thread have gotten frustrated with you since it is aggrivating trying to put facts against opinions only to be greeted with comments such as: -

It is strange that no one can answer me without relying on links. Is it because you are not used to give your own opinion ?

Peace.

[mansio]

Azim

If you think the phrase "scientific discoveries coming to Muslims" does not make sense, say it to your brother Muhammad and not to me. See post #112.

Most of "my opinions" are not my opinions but opinions shared by a majority of unprejudiced educated people.

One example: creationism is considered a ridiculous theory by a majority of people, religious ones included. Europeans are amazed that some Americans can believe in it. Creationism is not accepted in schools and universities.
So is it MY opinion that prevails on the globe, or the opinion of a majority of sensible people ?

[Abu Zakariya]

Abu Zakariya

Drago mi je.
If the Quran cannot be understood without the interpretation of the Prophet and his companions, then it is not in clear Arabic and it is not perfect because it is incomplete.
That reminds me of the Catholic Church former teaching that the faithful should not read from the Bible but that they should only hear of it through a priest.
It looks like Muslims have actually more than one holy book.

Again, this has nothing to do with the arabic. I don't understand why you keep on commenting on the arabic. You are in no position to do that.
However, I get your point.
The arabic itself is clear, I mean, the fact that the verse is talking about Jews and their beliefs is clear. However, to understand this fully, you have no choice but to check with the Sunnah. The same goes for Surah al-Kafirun. It is understood that the verse is talking about the difference between us and the unbelievers. However, to understand the context, i.e. that this was revealed as an answer to the proposition of worshipping Allah alone on year and the other gods other years, you have to go back to the Sunnah.

This isn't because the Qur'an is lacking. It is because God chose to do it this way. This way, we have to check with the Prophet and that is what God wants. We shouldn't try to practice islam our way, because it may conflict with the way God wants it.

This is different from what you mentioned about the Catholic rule, because it is obvious that one gets a better understanding by having knowledge of the context of the verse.
It is logical too. Who knows the Qur'an better? We or the one receiving it?

I am surprised that you were unaware of this. It is something fundamental. Muslims don't follow the Qur'an alone. They follow the Qur'an and Sunnah.

[azim]

One example: creationism is considered a ridiculous theory by a majority of people, religious ones included. Europeans are amazed that some Americans can believe in it. Creationism is not accepted in schools and universities.
So is it MY opinion that prevails on the globe, or the opinion of a majority of sensible people.

Someone who believes in 'creationism' can't be a good scientist (I assume you mean Islamic creationism here) yet this is not a fact.

Islamic creationism has no divergence from modern scientific thinking (whether you believe this is coincidence or not)...I do not believe in Christian creationism defined in Genesis.

The facts I base my opinion on are different from the non-muslim world, but the conclusion is the same.

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Mansio,
It is the nature of language that it can produce a variety of interpretations. To guide humanity on which interpretation was correct, Allah swt commanded that we follow the Qur'an as it was explaiend and implemented by the Prophet and as it was understood by the companions.

Regards

[sumay28]

Man.. the water you drink... where do you think it comes from??? Here's my opinion: If you don't believe in creation, you simply aren't thinking. It amazes me. I went to school for Ecology. I've met scientists in school that study so much about the trees, the rain, the plants, the ocean... All they do is they study. They concur with other scientists, they read, they go out there in the field studying behavior of animals... and I had learned from a certain scientist a while back about the Salmon. He was explaining to me the physical changes they go through when it is time to breed, how they swim upstream to breed in the same place that they were born, and finally, they die.. And just learning about that one little stupid fish that he was holding, that's all I needed to know that there is a God. The scientist was very well learned... went to school, learned about all this evolution stuff-- which is still very much a theory-- and accepts it as a fact, and goes on with his research without even thinking... where does this 'instinct' come from? The "natural" is the supernatural, dude. There are just things in this world that can not be explained with science, and religion explains it. Whether you want to believe it or not, there is a God.

[mansio]

Sumay

When I read your post #128 I wondered if you were talking about me. I went a number of posts backwards and realized that except POBook I was the only non Muslim around.
What made you think I don't believe in creation by God ? You seem to belong to that kind of narrow-minded people I meet on every forum who equate belief in evolution with atheism.
I haven't met yet a Catholic who believes in the historical reality of Adam and Eve and who does not believe in evolution. And a Catholic believes like me that God exists and created the universe.
You state "the natural is the supernatural". That's exactly what I believe dudette. I believe God has created the universe. His revelation is nature, his open book for everyone to read from it.

[azim]

Sup Mansio,

You said in your last post: -

You state "the natural is the supernatural". That's exactly what I believe dudette. I believe God has created the universe. His revelation is nature, his open book for everyone to read from it.

However, when criticising the Quran in one of your earlier posts, you ridicule the Quran for saying that : -

...the proofs of the existence of God is the rain from the sky or the cattle in the fields.

That seems contradictory. On one hand you say that nature and the whole universe is proof and a revelation from God. On the other, when the Quran says such, it is object for ridicule? How can you explain this?

I've listed some verses where it mentions proof as being in nature.

Do they not observe the earth, how much of every good kind We cause to grow therein? Verily, in this is an Ayah (proof or sign), yet most of them are not believers. (26:7).

Verily! In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, and the ships which sail through the sea with that which is of use to mankind, and the water (rain) which Allah sends down from the sky and makes the earth alive therewith after its death, and the moving (living) creatures of all kinds that He has scattered therein, and in the veering of winds and clouds which are held between the sky and the earth, are indeed ayat (proofs, evidences, signs, etc.) for people of understanding. (2:164).

[mansio]

I have decided not to answer posts from Azim for a reason that he will easily understand .
His last point is an excellent one to which I would have liked to answer.

[azim]

I have decided not to answer posts from Azim for a reason that he will easily understand .
His last point is an excellent one to which I would have liked to answer.

Hi mansio.

I apologise, but I don't understand why you are discontinuing this debate. It is not for a second that I doubt you have a legitimate reason, I'm just a bit confused as to why. :S

Feel free to PM if you would prefer.

Peace.

[mansio]

Azim

I accept your apology. I'll answer you a little later about your point.
I've also been so rude sometimes that I was banned twice, once from the French oummah.com (which gave me the idea to go on English forums instead and greatly improve my English !) and once from ummah.com, to which I returned the same day under one of my spare aliases.

[sumay28]

I've given my answer to your question about what convinced me to be a muslim. My question for you is; why are you arguing against islam? There are thousands of religions. Why is it that Islam is the religion you choose to debate against?

[mansio]

Sumay

Your question has already been asked to me on other forums.
I do not debate only against Islam but when need be I debate against the Catholic church, or against Christianity. No, I did not debate against Judaism or Hinduism yet.
This morning I posted on another Muslim forum against Mormonism which I consider a fraud.
What motivates me is the respect for truth. Not the many different truths that believers in religions have, but the truth of facts. When I see something I consider untrue I jump at it.

[mansio]

Azim

If you visit sites that deal with the existence of God you will realize how extremely complex the proofs are. The discussions rest on millenaries of philosophical and religious controversies. Nowadays science has added its weight in the debate.
Just have a look at the little example of Pascal's Wager.

One would expect from God that his proofs for his existence that he reveals to us outsmart the most complex human speculations by far.
It is exactly the contrary. In the Quran, the proofs of God are so simplistic that only a naive person could have conceived them.

Of course the night, the day, the ships, the rain, the cows, the beans, the dates, are proofs of God because everything has been created by God.
But in our 21st century the proofs of God are much more than what meets the eye. They are in astronomy, in physics, in genetics, in evolution. And all that is only at its beginning.

That is what I compared, between the simplistic proofs from nature given by the Quran, and the incredible discoveries from nature that we are only beginning to read in its open book.

[azim]

Of course the night, the day, the ships, the rain, the cows, the beans, the dates, are proofs of God because everything has been created by God.
But in our 21st century the proofs of God are much more than what meets the eye. They are in astronomy, in physics, in genetics, in evolution. And all that is only at its beginning.

So...would you have liked the Quran to contain all of the 20th century knowledge as proof? The Quran is guidance for all of mankind, through all the ages. What good is genetics to a man living 1000 years ago?

Rather, the Quran guides us in what we need to know, how we need to act, and at the same time, guides us to the proof he exists.

You mentioned astromony and physics, I suppose you mean the complexities of creation of the universe, the balance and sheer design of everything from the smallest quarks to the biggest galaxies. Do you think, if this information was revealed 1400 years ago, anyone could understand them, let alone be convinced of a God through it?

Instead Allah, in his wisdom, reveals to us facts relating to creation, some of which I have posted. These facts are in perfect corrallation with science and modern knowledge, and some, you even admit you even admit you can't explain (smoke) and the others you attribute to similarities in knowledge with other eras. Yet, mathamatically, what is the probablities the Quran contains so many of these facts? So low to 0 it's not even worth mentioning.

That is what I compared, between the simplistic proofs from nature given by the Quran, and the incredible discoveries from nature that we are only beginning to read in its open book.

You consider them simplistic because you take them at face value. Yet the knowledge the Quran guides you too is much greater, and much deeper.

Since your currently reading the Quran, I simply pray you will have the truth shown to you (whatever it may be).

Although, I sincerely ask you to read the Quran under the pretence it's from God, even if you don't believe it is. If you read the Quran with a notebook looking for something you can bring up in a debate - what good will it do?

If you have another topic to debate with me Mansio, feel free to bring it up. However I suggest in a new thread, 10 pages on we haven't really achieved much.

Peace.