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PRISONERofJOY12
12-24-2005, 08:50 PM
the trinity I read the site it said you don't believe in the trinity? why is that? curious
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- Qatada -
12-24-2005, 08:55 PM
We dont believe in the trinity because we believe that God is too high/great to have a son, and God is One.

If God can create Adam (peace be upon him) without a father, and even without a mother - then why is it so hard for God to create Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) without a father?

Another thing that makes it hard to believe is that; if all the other Prophets of God, including Moses etc. were all Prophets, then in what way were they related to God?


I dont mean to offend you with any of these questions, but even I would like to know why this is.

We believe that God has no partners, no children, because God is Eternal, and free of all wants, God is one and there is none comparable to him. This is why no-one is worthy of worship except God alone.


Please do ask if you dont understand. thanks.
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ummAbdillah
12-24-2005, 08:59 PM
peace
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
the trinity I read the site it said you don't believe in the trinity? why is that? curious
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[112.1] Say: He, Allah, is One.
[112.2] Allah is He on Whom all depend.
[112.3] He begets not, nor is He begotten.
[112.4] And none is like Him.

no we dont belive in the trinity, we belive the allah is that one and only god.
and mohammed, jesus, noah, lot etc are only honorable prophets of allah almighty.
:peace:
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-24-2005, 09:05 PM
then I got this out of it just now: Three cannot be one...
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-24-2005, 09:14 PM
oh.. well in our perspective instead of looking at it like 1+1+1=1 we look at like 1x1x1=1
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-24-2005, 09:23 PM
but you are adding it.. lets look at your parents... your dad ( dad is an example ) .. is he a dad? is he a son? is he a grandad.... how can he be all three of those?
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- Qatada -
12-24-2005, 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
but you are adding it.. lets look at your parents... your dad ( dad is an example ) .. is he a dad? is he a son? is he a grandad.... how can he be all three of those?

I understand what you mean - but do you really believe that a person, a creation of God can be a son of God?

I want to ask this again - but in what way are the other prophets related to God, and why did God choose to have Jesus as his only son?


Us muslims believe that all the prophets are of a equal rank, and are creations of God, and they all came to give the message of God that we should worship God alone, what about all the people who came before Jesus? did their sins not get forgiven?


thanks. :)
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Muhammad
12-24-2005, 09:49 PM
Greetings and :sl: ,

This thread has been split from the one it was in previously, as it is discussing a different topic.

The following threads will hopefully be helpful, God-Willing:

What is Tawheed?

What is the meaning of Tawheed and what are its categories?

how did the trinity develop?

Islam and Christianity

Peace.
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stevothewarrior
12-24-2005, 09:53 PM
3 in 1 is possible.

i am 1 person

i am a son
i am a brother
i am a nephew

those r 3 different form of me yet i am still 1 person.
if god is alpowerful then it would not be difficult at all to seperate those forms and for them to act seperatly.

dont think at it at 1+1+1=1
think of it as 1x1x1=1
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- Qatada -
12-24-2005, 09:58 PM
Hey stevowarrior.


Yeah i agree, God is all powerful - but the question is, why does God have to sacrifice his own 'son' for the sake of humanity to forgive their sins?

this leads to the questions: -


- Does God really have a son? the One who creates every single atom in the universe, what benefit will it be to Him to have a son?

- What is the purpose in life of a christian if they all will be saved? whats the difference between a mass murderer and a christian who gives in charity? aren't they all going to be saved?

Its important to get evidence from our scriptures, so if you could get evidence from the bible - we would really appreciate it. :)
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stevothewarrior
12-24-2005, 10:11 PM
before christ the only way god's ppl could be saved was for them to sacrafice a perfect lamb to god and its blood would cover there sins. God promised that one day a perfect lamb would come and take away the sins of the world. Jsus came to be the perfect lamb to be the sacrafice that was promised. but the only thing that is absolutely perfect is God. this is why Jesus had to be part of God or as many call him "the Son of God" he was God in the flesh.

there is no difference between a "good person" and a mass murderer. both have sinned. God is faithful and just and will forgive both if they ask.

also one does not become saved by giving in charity they bcome saved by asking for forgivness.
but if both ask for forgivness than yes both will be saved.

Romans 3:10 (New International Version)

10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;

1 John 1:9

9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
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- Qatada -
12-24-2005, 10:18 PM
so peoples sins got forgiven by sacrificing a lamb? i dont understand that.. why should a person be forgiven if they slaughter a lamb? what relevance does it have to the persons sins.


i also dont understand the part where it keeps getting mentioned that jesus (peace be upon him) had to be sacrificed for the sins of later people to be forgiven. why was this? isn't God Strong, and Merciful enough to forgive the people without having to have His Own 'son' killed? i also dont understand that if jesus (peace be upon him) was really God, then why would He go in the form of a human, and after becoming a human, why couldn't He save Himself? isn't that easy for God?


i agree with the idea that God will forgive people their sins because in islam, if a person sincerely repents and asks for forgiveness (and avoids that sin in as much as they can in the future), they will get forgiven insha Allaah (God willing) - but i dont understand the idea that just because jesus (peace be upon him) sacrificed himself, or 'God' sacrificed himself? the peoples sins will be forgiven and they all will be given salvation, no matter what they did in this life..? Doesn't that just open the door to people doing whatever they wish in this life - without any consequences?

Us muslims believe we will be judged on the day of judgement based on our actions in this life, and whoever believed in God alone without any associates, and did good acts - they will go to heaven, and whoever did bad - and never believed will go to hell. however the people that believed in God alone without any associates will go to paradise after they have had their punishment - that is fair dont you think?


Please clarify that.. thanks.
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ummbilal
12-24-2005, 10:21 PM
the trinity is
father, son and holy ghost right?

we believe that the prophet Jesus(called Isa in Islam) peace be upon him was not the son of God, that God has no children and that Isa peace be upon him was created by God in the same way Adam peace be upon him was created with no parents, Isa had no father but a virgin mother Mary.

so we dont accept the son part and we believe the holy spirit you believe in is the Angel Gabriel who brought the Injil(Gospal) to the prophet Isa, an Angel is a servent of God, not worthy of worship, we pray only to God, God is the only thing worthy of our worship.

In every prayer we make we say in arabic

"You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help"

surah Al Fatiha
which is the first surah or chapter of the Quran, which was given to Our Prophet Muhammed from God, sometimes through the Angel Jibrel (Gabriel)
Muslims believe in all the prophets before Muhammed peace and blessings be upon him so we believe in Adam, Noah, Jacob, Joseph, Jonah, Abraham, Solomon, David, John the Baptist etc.. we believe all these brought the same message, ie worship God alone and pray, and the prophet Jesus is extreemly important in Islam, we do not worship him though nor do we worship any man or angel we pray only to the Creator Allah

Al=The

LLah=God
so Allah means literally
The God
its not the name of God or anything like that , nor is it a different God from the God of the christians or jews as we believe there is only One God, and Muhammed is his messanger.

hth answer your question

peace
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-24-2005, 10:22 PM
Jesus died on the cross so God can look at Him the way He should look at me so God can show me how Heloved me the way He should of loved Him..

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

that was luke22:39-43
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- Qatada -
12-24-2005, 10:32 PM
I strongly urge you to listen to the 'tune in radio' because its specifically talking about this subject.. check the bottom of the homepage to access it.
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ummbilal
12-24-2005, 10:34 PM
we dont believe Jesus peace be upon him died on the cross, God took him up to him and he will retern to do justice and there will be peace on earth for a time, I would love to be with the people who will witness his retern and follow him, oh to sit in a circle of studants studying under the Prophet Isa ,

we believe Allah doesnt punish or make anyone accountable for anyones sins, other than their own .Jesus didnt die at all and is still living with Allah in heaven, until his return to earth God willing.

peace and blessings be upon him and all the prophets of God.
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 12:34 AM
I have 56k can I listen to it still?

is Jesus a Phrophet?
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Shadow
12-25-2005, 12:40 AM
^yes Jesus(pbuh) is a Prophet
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
so peoples sins got forgiven by sacrificing a lamb? i dont understand that.. why should a person be forgiven if they slaughter a lamb? what relevance does it have to the persons sins.


i also dont understand the part where it keeps getting mentioned that jesus (peace be upon him) had to be sacrificed for the sins of later people to be forgiven. why was this? isn't God Strong, and Merciful enough to forgive the people without having to have His Own 'son' killed? i also dont understand that if jesus (peace be upon him) was really God, then why would He go in the form of a human, and after becoming a human, why couldn't He save Himself? isn't that easy for God?


i agree with the idea that God will forgive people their sins because in islam, if a person sincerely repents and asks for forgiveness (and avoids that sin in as much as they can in the future), they will get forgiven insha Allaah (God willing) - but i dont understand the idea that just because jesus (peace be upon him) sacrificed himself, or 'God' sacrificed himself? the peoples sins will be forgiven and they all will be given salvation, no matter what they did in this life..? Doesn't that just open the door to people doing whatever they wish in this life - without any consequences?

Us muslims believe we will be judged on the day of judgement based on our actions in this life, and whoever believed in God alone without any associates, and did good acts - they will go to heaven, and whoever did bad - and never believed will go to hell. however the people that believed in God alone without any associates will go to paradise after they have had their punishment - that is fair dont you think?


Please clarify that.. thanks.
well through Christ you already know you are saved no one can take that away not even satan can take it away.. you might slip away of course..

then to answer your first question.. it was intent that Jesus died on the cross just like it was needed for adam and eve to sin God knew they would sin thus they lost their perfect relationship with God after they did but.. so God intended to show His love for us by dying on the cross.. if you love someone and that someone treated you wrong what would you do? forgive them or not?
if Allah wasn't a liar then it sure sounds like He lied by making judas the replacement of Jesus...
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Danish
12-25-2005, 12:52 AM
:SL:
bEFORE WE MOVE ON can u tell us where in bible word TRINITY IS MENTIOED?? Or where jesus said "OUR god is one in 3 god"

Famous verse of bible says : 4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Now y didnt jesus answer : "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one in THREE LORD:"?

And what does OUR god suppose to mean other than the fact jesus is saying ISRAEL ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNND my god is one god

Beside all biblical evidence, TRINITY is a mystery (confessed by most born-again christians), trinity is illogical. Islam is absolutely logical
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*charisma*
12-25-2005, 12:54 AM
Greetings,

well through Christ you already know you are saved no one can take that away not even satan can take it away.. you might slip away of course..
If that is true, than what is the purpose of satan? and what is the purpose for you living here in this world?

then to answer your first question.. it was intent that Jesus died on the cross just like it was needed for adam and eve to sin God knew they would sin thus they lost their perfect relationship with God after they did but.. so God intended to show His love for us by dying on the cross.. if you love someone and that someone treated you wrong what would you do? forgive them or not?
if Allah wasn't a liar then it sure sounds like He lied by making judas the replacement of Jesus...
basically by this u are belittling God, you are saying that He had to change himself from a superior into a weak human form, call himself Jesus so basically he also changed his name from God to Jesus?, and then have people who didnt have faith in him, kill him all so that He can forgive you for your sins correct?
Also, i would like to ask, do you believe that the Bible has been changed over the years to comply with the Christain's requests and have it be more lenient to their sinning? or basically just changed at all?

peace
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*charisma*
12-25-2005, 01:19 AM
Greetings,

004.171 O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

This ayah in the Holy Quran, clearly states that Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was the son of Mary (peace and blessings be upon her) and a messenger of Allah's, nothing more. Also it is said that the Trinity does not exist, so we should refrain from such a belief because Allah is ONE and ONE only and He is much superior from having a son.

005.110 Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Here it is said, ONLY by the Will of Allah's can something be what it is. And only by the Will of Allah, would Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) be able to perform the miracles and use the powers he was granted.

005.116 And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Here it says that Allah will ask Jesus (peace and blessings upon him) about saying that he is supposed to be worshiped and he will reply that he has no right to say anything that Allah did not know of. I believe this will occur on the Day of Ressurection where all the nonbelievers will hear this statement.

peace
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 05:32 AM
I already basicly said it.. satans purpose is to try and pull the followers of God away from God and to him, he tempts us with sin

NO... not exactly.... God came to earth by showing us how loving He is... He died on the cross with the nails punksured in His hands and feet ( that is painful ) and then the biggest of flieghts that he showed was the ressurections telling us that DEATH has no power over him..
well people who were blinded by the darkness killed him...which there was a purpose in all that
are you asking how do I know the Bible is divine rather than Human in Origin?...

PS.. I thank you for listening to me
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 06:03 AM
Originally Posted by Danish
:SL:
bEFORE WE MOVE ON can u tell us where in bible word TRINITY IS MENTIOED?? Or where jesus said "OUR god is one in 3 god"

Famous verse of bible says : 4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Now y didnt jesus answer : "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one in THREE LORD:"?

And what does OUR god suppose to mean other than the fact jesus is saying ISRAEL ANNNNNNNNNNNNNNND my god is one god

Beside all biblical evidence, TRINITY is a mystery (confessed by most born-again christians), trinity is illogical. Islam is absolutely logical
the word "Trinity"--like "incarnation"-- is not found in scripture; however, it aptly codifies what God has condescended to reveal to us about his nature and being. In short, the Trinitarian platform contains three planks: (1) there is but one God; (2) the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; (3) Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct.
The first plank underscores that there is only one God. Christianity is not polytheistic but fiercely monotheistic. "you are my witnesses, declares the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me" (isaiah 43:10).
The second plank emphasizes that in the hundreds of scripture passages the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are declared to be fully and completely God. as a case in point, the Apostle Paul says that, "there is but one God, the Father" (1 corinthians 8:6). The Father, speaking of the Son, says," Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever" ( Hebrews 1:8 ) . and when Ananias "Lied to the Holy Spirit," Peter points out that he had " not lied to me but to God" (Acts 5:3-4)
The third plank of the Trinitarian platform asserts that the Father, SOn, and Holy Spirit are eternally distinct. Scripture clearly portrays subject/object relationships between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For example, the Father and Son love one another, speak to each other ( John 17:1-6), and together send the Holy Spirit (John 15:26 ). Additionally, Jesus proclaims that he and the Father are two distinct witnesses and two distinct judges (John 8:14-18). If Jesus were himself the Father, his argument would not only have been irrelevent but it would have been fatally flawed; and if such were the case, he could not have been fully God.
It is important to note that when Trinitarians speak of one God they are referring to the nature or essence of God.Moreover, when they speak of persons they are referring to personal self-distinction within the Godhead. Put another way, we believe one what and three who's.

Deuteronomy 6:4
"Hear, O isreal: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

Matthew 28:19
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
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lyesh
12-25-2005, 09:05 AM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
I already basicly said it.. satans purpose is to try and pull the followers of God away from God and to him, he tempts us with sin

NO... not exactly.... God came to earth by showing us how loving He is... He died on the cross with the nails punksured in His hands and feet ( that is painful ) and then the biggest of flieghts that he showed was the ressurections telling us that DEATH has no power over him..
well people who were blinded by the darkness killed him...which there was a purpose in all that
are you asking how do I know the Bible is divine rather than Human in Origin?...
So you believe that Jesus is God. And above you have stated that Jesus is dead? How come God is dead?
If God is dead then how come the sun rises?
how come the plants grow?
How come the wind blows?
How come there is life on Earth?

U believe that Jesus is God, So U must believe that God is the creator of everything! So how come the creator is dead and the creations are alive?

By the way why does the bible keep on changing?
But no one can or could ever bring any chages to Quran?

the text below is taken from: http://www.answering-christianity.com/questions.htm



BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN HE WHOM THE APOSTLES FOLLOWED:

1- Where, specifically, in the Gospel does Jesus (PBUH!) mention the Trinity?

(If you find no such reference from his lips to a god residing in three persons -- and you will not -- then perhaps you will be moved to consider the following questions)

2- How could Jesus (PBUH!) possibly have omitted to mention something of such extraordinary importance?

* How could the authors of the four Gospels have made the same extraordinary omission?

(For no direct reference to the Trinity appears in any chapter or verse of any of the four Gospels. It is a patching-on from a later era.)

3- Why does Jesus (PBUH!) in the Lord's prayer address the Lord as "Father" and then refer to the Father's children throughout as "Us" and "We," instead of separating himself from the rest of the children of God, as the Trinity would seem to demand?

4- (And here, brothers and sisters, is the big question, the question that takes no small degree of courage to address honestly) If redemption through the blood of Christ, that one member of the Trinity, is all that is necessary for salvation, how are we to explain the many, many occasions in the Gospel that Jesus (PBUH!) details the necessity of submitting directly to the One God -- without ever mentioning the role of his (Jesus', PBUH!) redeeming blood?
Brothers and sisters: Are these not extraordinary teachings? Are they not central to the ministry of Jesus (PBUH!)? And must we not confront dozens of them in order to defend the Trinity and the notion of the sacrificial Christ?



I am thinking, specifically, of:

1. His instruction to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind." (Matthew 22:27.) -- Jesus [PBUH!] identifies this submission to the One God as the *supreme* commandment, and yet for some reason he makes no mention within it of the sacrificial Christ or to one god in three persons, which are supposedly central to his ministry! Quite an oversight! Or are we to assume that Jesus [PBUH!] never actually uttered these words about the supreme commandment?

2. His parable of the Prodigal Son. This contains no reference whatsoever to the sacrificial Christ, or to any intermediary whatsoever for salvation. And the parable certainly makes no reference to the repentant son returning from his sinful journey to a father who takes the form of three persons. He returns to ONE father, not three. Surely we must either conclude that this, the most celebrated of the parables, has nothing to do with the Trinity or with the notion of a sacrificial Christ -- or, if we wish to retain the Trinity and the notion of a sacrificial Christ, we must conclude that this is not an authentic teaching of Jesus [PBUH!]. Brothers and sisters, fellow Christians -- which is it to be?

3. His instruction to become as children (humble, trusting, submitting to the Lord) in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. (See Matthew 18:3.) There is no mention here of the sacrificial Christ as necessary to this entry to the Kingdom, and certainly no mention of one god in three persons! Again: Are we to believe that this is not an authentic teaching of Jesus [PBUH!]? We must assume such a position if we wish to support the Trinity and the notion of a sacrificial Christ.

4. His insistence on the importance of the individual's development of personal faith, without intermediaries, in the One God. This, my brothers and sisters, is Islam! If that word frightens us, or if we wish to make ourselves feel more comfortable with the actual content of this divine ministry, sidestepping for the moment its verbal labels, we may call it "Jesus' ministry" or "Jesus' teachings." (PBUH!) But his ministry is manifestly one of submission to the One God, and we must think long and hard about the consequences of rejecting it in its true form. There are dozens of examples of such Gospel teachings about the development of STRONG individual faith WITHOUT INTERMEDIARIES, among them Matthew 6:23, 7:7, 17:20, Mark 11:23, Luke 9: 61-62, Luke 15:8, etc. etc. -- and yet there is no mention in any of these or the many other such passages of the sacrificial Christ or of one god in three persons! Is not this a remarkable fact? How are we to account for it?

Brothers and sisters, I ask you as one who has closely studied the Gospel of Jesus (PBUH!) for thirty years: What kind of faith can we claim to be developing through the religion that bears this man's name, if such faith is at variance with what he actually taught? Why, in other words, did Jesus (PBUH!) bother to teach his followers -- you and I, brothers and sisters -- of the growth of the mustard seed, of the woman who seeks for the ten silver pieces, of the impossibility of being fit for the Kingdom of God for one who sets his hand to the plough and then keeps looking back -- why did he pronounce all these extraordinary exhortations to PERSONAL, UNMEDIATED faith in the One God, if all of them are to be superseded by his own unique personal role as a member of the Trinity and his personal blood-sacrifice for a sinful humanity? Again, we must choose whether we are to accept the Trinity and the notion of a sacrificial Christ, or we must choose to accepts the teachings of Jesus (PBUH!) concerning personal faith in the One God.

It is not a difficult choice, brothers and sisters.

There are, we would all agree, many corruptions in the New Testament. There are many points where the various texts contradict themselves or send strange messages patched on in later years. Yet if we read the texts carefully, we can identify those portions of the text that illuminate Jesus' actual ministry on earth. It is clearly a ministry that preaches submission to the One God.

Brothers and sisters -- seek carefully out the words of the man we have for so long called the Lord, and remember his words to us: "Why do you say Lord, Lord, and not do what I say?"







6- Conclusion:

Muslims believe that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him is a messenger from God. He was sent from God Almighty to deliver God's words to his people. Jesus was never God, nor ever claimed to be God. Jesus was a humble wonderful human being just like the rest of the Prophets and Messengers of God.



Allah Almighty (GOD) in the Noble Quran (The Muslims' Holy Scripture) states in Verse 5:72 "They do blaspheme who say: 'God is Christ the son of Mary.' But said Christ: 'O Children of Israel ! worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' "

Also in Noble Verse 5:73 "They do blaspheme who say God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them."

And also in Noble Verse 4:171 "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of God aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of God, ..."
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ummbilal
12-25-2005, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
well through Christ you already know you are saved no one can take that away not even satan can take it away.. you might slip away of course..

then to answer your first question.. it was intent that Jesus died on the cross just like it was needed for adam and eve to sin God knew they would sin thus they lost their perfect relationship with God after they did but.. so God intended to show His love for us by dying on the cross.. if you love someone and that someone treated you wrong what would you do? forgive them or not?
if Allah wasn't a liar then it sure sounds like He lied by making judas the replacement of Jesus...
Allah is God, the same God you pray to, though you also pray to the prophet Jesus, please refrain from calling God a lier, its extreemly offencive, as i explained before Allah is
Al which means The
and Lah which means God so the word Allah means The God, its not a special word used only by muslims, arabic speaking christians use the word Allah too.

Allah replaced caused another man to look like Jesus, as a punishment for his sin of disloyalty and God knows best why he was caused to die on the cross, Jesus as never said he was the son of God or was God, he always said worship God but never claimed divinity for himself ever,

The trinity is not mentioned in the bible, so where did the idea of the trinity come from, ??

(7) And will make him (Iesa (Jesus)) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allahs Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allahs Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. (Chapter #3, Verse #49)


we believe Jesus as performed miricles by the will of God, not because he was divine himself, by Gods will he cured the sick and raised the dead, just as the prophet moses parted the sea, by Gods will, not because he had any special powers himself.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by lyesh
So you believe that Jesus is God. And above you have stated that Jesus is dead? How come God is dead?
If God is dead then how come the sun rises?
how come the plants grow?
How come the wind blows?
How come there is life on Earth?

U believe that Jesus is God, So U must believe that God is the creator of everything! So how come the creator is dead and the creations are alive?

By the way why does the bible keep on changing?
But no one can or could ever bring any chages to Quran?
how about you read what I said about the trinity
John 12:23 Jesus Predicts His Death..

23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.
Reply

SunniMuslimah
12-25-2005, 02:00 PM
Muslims dont believe in the trinity because Muslims believe in just ONE God.

The trinity offers 3 gods: the father, the son and the Holy Spirit

We beieve in Allah, or whom you call the father.

Jesus is a so honored prophet in Islam, the Holy Spirit is the archangel Gabriel.


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 02:10 PM
John 8:20
"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

you ever read the passions of the Christ ( good movie )anyone?
I listened to that radio talk show last night it was alright. but we worship different God then what he said we did
Reply

SunniMuslimah
12-25-2005, 03:20 PM
Well, if Jesus is god why he doesnt know when will doomsday be? He said in (Mathew 24:36):

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father."

I think that god should know everything in the world, the past, the present and the future, right?

In this statement he assured that even the Holy Spirit doesnt know about the day!

So both Jesus and the HS arent complete, so how they should be considered as gods?!


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
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Reply

SunniMuslimah
12-25-2005, 03:32 PM
In (Mathew 12:18): "Here is my servant whom i have chosen,..."

Is it reasonable that god call another god "my servant"?! Choosing this particular word indicates that God doesnt consider Jesus as an equal god or even a son, but rather a human servant.

Besides, even if J. was called son of god in the Gospels, this doesnt make him necessarily a god because Jacob or Israel was called son of god too in the Bible. Plz read (Exodus 4:22): "Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn."

King David was called son of god too in the Bible: (psalm 2:7)

Solomon too: (II Sam. 7:13-14)

Even Ephraim: (Jermiah 31:9)

Common People: (Deut. 14:1); (Romans 8:29); (Mathew 5:45-48); and (II Connthians 6:18)

So to be called son of god in the Bible this doesnt prove that J. is a god.


In (Luke 13:33) Jesus himself said:

" I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day - for surely no "PROPHET" can die outside Jeusalem."

Jesus called himself a prophet and he never called himself a god.

Can you give me just one text from the Bible in which J. said frankly that he is god or asked his followers to worship him?


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
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Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 03:44 PM
The Father, speaking of the Son, says," Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever" ( Hebrews 1:8 ) .

and in the new testiment: 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son.

firstborn son. a figure of speech indicating isreal's special relationship with God ( see jer 31:9; Hos 11:1)
Reply

SunniMuslimah
12-25-2005, 03:46 PM
Jesus told you that he is a prophet, do you believe him?

He also told you that there is only ONE TRUE God, do you believe him?

In (John 17:3) J. declared the truth:

"...that they may know You, THE ONLY TRUE God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

He didnt say that they may know the trinity or may know us, or any indication to multiple gods. He only mentioned God as the only true one, what more?

If this is what J. said, do you believe him?


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

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Reply

Umm Yoosuf
12-25-2005, 03:51 PM
The Quran states:

'The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers the like of whom had passed away before him . . . O people of the Book - stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of a people who went astray before you.' (Surat al-Ma'ida, 75)

And again:

'O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, nor utter anything concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say 'Three'. Desist, it will be better for you. God is only One God. . . . The Messiah would never have scorned to be a slave of God.' (Surat al-Nisa, 171-2)

Jusus was not God, nor did he ever claim to be God!
Reply

azim
12-25-2005, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
The Father, speaking of the Son, says," Your throne, O God, will last forever and forever" ( Hebrews 1:8 ) .

and in the new testiment: 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son.

firstborn son. a figure of speech indicating isreal's special relationship with God ( see jer 31:9; Hos 11:1)
Luke 3:38

"the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the Son of God"

If you accept one part of the Bible as literally meaning 'son of god' you must accept the other parts as well.

There is nothing about Jesus, from the miracle birth, to his life, to his death, that indicates he is the son of God. His birth is like Adam's - no father. His miracles were not unique - Prophets had peformed them before him. His death did not indicate his divinity - in fact he said that he is 'flesh' to Mary after the crucifixion took place.
Reply

SunniMuslimah
12-25-2005, 03:56 PM
And when he talked about himself, he considered himself as a prophet who was sent from God, not a a god who has a freewill to do what he likes.

He said in (John 8:26-29):

".... But He Who sent me is Reliable, and what i have heard from Him I tell the world ... and that i do nothing on my own but speak just what the father has taught me. The One Who sent me is with me, He has not left me alone, for i always do what pleases Him."

I think that if you thought deeply in this quote you will find the truth by yourself, but i will try to help u.

From this quote we can conclude that J. doesnt have a freewill to say to the people what he wants, but rather what God wants him to say. And this is the mission of prophets: "to convey God's message to the world".

That's why he used to say "who sent me", gods dont send each other, God sends humans or angels or any of His creatures.

As in the quote mentioned above, Jesus affirmed that he did nothing on his own but spoke JUST what God taught him.

I think that this sentence tells everything, J. couldnt say a word on his own but only what God taught him.

Even the word "taught" that Jesus used has many implications, god doesnt need to be taught, he should know everything. Who needs to be taught? Humans or creatures in general.

God teaches not be taught.

If you applied God's characteristics on Jesus and applied them on J., the notion of divinity wont be applicable on him.

Instead Humans' characteristics could be easily applied on him.

So J. is a human prophet not a god.

Or what do you think?


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
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Reply

Muhammad
12-25-2005, 05:07 PM
Greetings,

In order to have a good discussion, it would be better for us to stop here and I would request PrisonerOfJoy to respond to the points made so far.

There is no point continuing if new allegations/arguments are going to be fired, when the old ones are not dealt with first.

If all that is intended by these discussions is the copying and pasting of articles, then they shall be removed and the threads shall be closed.

If you are willing to abide by these rules, then please feel welcome to discuss your religion with us,

Peace.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by azim
Luke 3:38

"the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the Son of God"

If you accept one part of the Bible as literally meaning 'son of god' you must accept the other parts as well.

There is nothing about Jesus, from the miracle birth, to his life, to his death, that indicates he is the son of God. His birth is like Adam's - no father. His miracles were not unique - Prophets had peformed them before him. His death did not indicate his divinity - in fact he said that he is 'flesh' to Mary after the crucifixion took place.
yes but the difference between adam and seth is the fact Jesus contained all the attributes of God... Jesus woke the dead did moses do the same?
moses seperated water with what? a staff...1 cor. 12:12-13
"The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body- whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free - and we were all given the one Spirit to drink."
Ephesians 1:15-18 "He[Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created: things in rulers or authorities; all things were created by Him and for Him... And he is the head of the body, the church...
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-25-2005, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by SunniMuslimah
Well, if Jesus is god why he doesnt know when will doomsday be? He said in (Mathew 24:36):

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but only the father."

I think that god should know everything in the world, the past, the present and the future, right?

In this statement he assured that even the Holy Spirit doesnt know about the day!

So both Jesus and the HS arent complete, so how they should be considered as gods?!


*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
:) To know about Islam in general:
http://itolerance.4t.com/

:) To know about the 20 Most Common Questions about ISLAM:
http://20questions.4t.com/
do you know more than your father? earthly father that is?
Reply

lyesh
12-25-2005, 08:00 PM
In the Name of Allah



IN THE WILL OF THE ONE AND ONLY GOD I CHALLENGE YOU FOR THIS!!!

You claim that you love Jesus and bible.
I'll give you a little example for you to workout. You are telling that God
came to Earth to show his love. For example maybe tomorrow If I were to
be beaten and crucified would you start worshippping me? It might be
that God once again came to Earth in the form of a human. Did the
people who were there to crucify your God knew that they were killing God?
I wonder? Maybe they might not know that, because if they knew
they wouldn't kill the God because God gives his creations food,
shelter, wealth and everything they desire. For example a person won't
kill his friend if he helps him, if he gives money to him, if he cares about him.
So the people who killed your God might not know that it was God.
So my question is " How do you know that Jesus is God?" In the
bible Jesus never claimed that he is God! But he only tried to tell
you not to do wrong and to worship the one and only God! If you
only try to understand the bible more you may come across this.


I'll tell you one thing, we Muslims Love Jesus more than
Christians!!!!
We respect him more than Christians. And we believe Jesus was
given a book which shows right and wrong. But our Quran came
to us from that God who created Jesus and all that exist. Allah has
informed us that a book was given to Jesus, but the book was changed!
(by your preists in general). We love Muhammed (p.b.u.h) but we will never
ever worship him,Insha Allah ( by the will of Allah ) as a Muslim.
Reply

Muezzin
12-25-2005, 09:43 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
the trinity I read the site it said you don't believe in the trinity? why is that? curious
'THE Trinity? The one that cracked the IRS D-Base?

-That was a long time ago.

-Jeez... I just thought... you were a guy.

-Most guys do.'

;)
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by lyesh
In the Name of Allah



IN THE WILL OF THE ONE AND ONLY GOD I CHALLENGE YOU FOR THIS!!!

You claim that you love Jesus and bible.
I'll give you a little example for you to workout. You are telling that God
came to Earth to show his love. For example maybe tomorrow If I were to
be beaten and crucified would you start worshippping me?
John 19:30 When he had recieved the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, He bowed his head and gave up his dpirit.

so no--- because of Jesus it is finish there is no need of crucifying another.. Jesus was the ultimate sacifrice of sin. Jesus purchased men with His Blood...and I love Him.. I know I love Him more than people here..



It might be
that God once again came to Earth in the form of a human. Did the
people who were there to crucify your God knew that they were killing God?
no because satan blinded them from the truth.. but if the jews never killed Jesus then how would it be complete...

Maybe they might not know that, because if they knew
they wouldn't kill the God because God gives his creations food,
shelter, wealth and everything they desire. For example a person won't
kill his friend if he helps him, if he gives money to him, if he cares about him.
So the people who killed your God might not know that it was God.
So my question is " How do you know that Jesus is God?" maybe He never claimed to be God but why was He persecuted?

In the bible Jesus never claimed that he is God! But he only tried to tell
you not to do wrong and to worship the one and only God! If you
only try to understand the bible more you may come across this.


I'll tell you one thing, we Muslims Love Jesus more than
Christians!!!!
We respect him more than Christians. And we believe Jesus was
given a book which shows right and wrong. But our Quran came
to us from that God who created Jesus and all that exist. Allah has
informed us that a book was given to Jesus, but the book was changed!
(by your preists in general). We love Muhammed (p.b.u.h) but we will never
ever worship him,Insha Allah ( by the will of Allah ) as a Muslim.
well I do love Jesus don't I? I believe He is something He really is not just a prophet.. prophets have moms and dads Jesus never had a earthly dad.... or a really earthly dad...
Reply

azim
12-26-2005, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
well I do love Jesus don't I? I believe He is something He really is not just a prophet.. prophets have moms and dads Jesus never had a earthly dad.... or a really earthly dad...
Nor did Adam. He didn't even have a mother. Does that make him a greater God?
Reply

Snowflake
12-26-2005, 12:45 AM
peace and greetings

The Bible too proves Jesus (pbuh) is not God


Jesus (peace be upon him) just before he supposedly died said, "Forgive them, Father! They know not what they do." Who do you think Jesus is addressing here? If Jesus is God who was he calling the Father (God)? Was Jesus talking to himself? Or do you mean to say that Jesus is his own son and his own father? :confused: Or Jesus was pretending not to be God when he prayed to the Father? God would not pray to himself would he? For one moment, don't let your faith cloud your ability to think rationally. Think logically and the answer is clear as crystal.

Jesus spent forty days in the wilderness where he fasted, prayed and was tempted by the Devil before beginning his ministry (Matthew 4:2).Who to? :confused:
If Jesus is God then who did he pray to? If Jesus is God, do you believe God to be so weak that the Devil thought he could try to tempt him?

What are the last words of Jesus?

Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46; John 19:30

I took the Biblical references below from: CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS & RESEARCH MINISTRY

Note the contradictions in the Bible below. May I ask which one of the following do you believe Jesus (PBUH) to have said? And why?

think about it here-------------

Matthew 27:46) - "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

(Mark 15:34) - "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" [/B]

[B](Luke 23:46) - "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last."

(John 19:30) - "When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit."



Which one is right? You cannot tell me, because the Bible is full of flaws and contradictions. What validity does a religion that cannot even answer the questions of it's followers have?

You must realise that in no way do muslims discredit the authenticity of the Bible in the times of Jesus (pbuh). But as you've seen for yourself, the Bible has changed over time, is full of human-error and simply doubtful as to what it's trying to preach.

See below. See how many times the Bible itself acknowledges Jesus's dependency on God.


"THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW"

The Temptation Of Jesus (4:1-11)



OBSERVATIONS FROM THE TEMPTATION OF JESUS

A. WE HAVE THE SAME ADVERSARY...
1. Jesus was tempted by the devil, and so are we - 1 Pe 5:8-9
2. The devil now directs his attention towards the disciples of
Christ - Re 12:17
-- We should not treat him lightly, for the conflict is real!
- Ep 6:12

B. WE HAVE SIMILAR TEMPTATIONS...
1. The lust of the flesh - e.g., immorality, especially when
young
2. The lust of the eyes - e.g., materialism, especially when
middle-aged
3. The pride of life - e.g., pride and arrogance, especially when
elderly
-- These we must overcome, if we wish to have the love of the
Father - 1 Jn 2:15-16

C. WE HAVE THE SAME TOOLS TO OVERCOME...
1. Jesus appealed to the Word of God, and so can we - cf. Ep 6:17
2. Jesus had faith in the plan of God
(victory through
suffering), we need a similar shield of faith - Ep 6:16; cf.
He 10:35-39
3. Jesus undoubtedly prayed, for He taught us to use prayer in
overcoming temptation - Mt 26:41
-- The Word of God, faith, and prayer...against these the devil
has no chance!

D. WE HAVE SIMILAR BLESSINGS WHEN WE OVERCOME...
1. Jesus was administered to by angels, angels will carry us home
- cf. Lk 16:22
2. Jesus received wonderful blessings when He ultimately overcame
and ascended to heaven;
He has promised similar blessings for
us - cf. Re 2:10,26-27; 3:21

Ep 6:16; cf.
He 10:35-39: Jesus has faith in the plan of God. This clearly demonstrates as God being a different entity to Jesus.

Furthermore, If Jesus is God then who did he receive blessings from when he ascended to Heaven? Was there another God? Doesn't the Bible teach to that there is only one God?

You may check all the quotes are taken from the Bible. Will you say, that certain things I've pointed out from the Bible are not true?
If you do I will ask you why you are following a religion that even you have no faith in?

Pay particular attention to everything that I've high-lighted.


peace be with you
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by azim
Nor did Adam. He didn't even have a mother. Does that make him a greater God?
you should already know adam and eve was tempted by satan to eat the fruit.. and they did but Jesus was tempted but did not be tempt.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Nadia Waheed
peace and greetings



You may check all the quotes are taken from the Bible. Will you say, that certain things I've pointed out from the Bible are not true?
If you do I will ask you why you are following a religion that even you have no faith in?

Pay particular attention to everything that I've high-lighted.


peace be with you
when you tell me I have no faith in what I believe in it is a LIE... you should learn to think before you speak.. I am here defending my FAITH(what I believe in so dearly to be true )

humans need the help from God to rebuke satan...
Reply

Snowflake
12-26-2005, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
when you tell me I have no faith in what I believe in it is a LIE... you should learn to think before you speak.. I am here defending my FAITH(what I believe in so dearly to be true )

humans need the help from God to rebuke satan...
I said that, if you will say that certain things I've quoted from the Bible are not true, only then I would have asked you why you are following a religion that you have no faith in. I'm sorry if you misread it. Please accept my apologies if you felt offended.


peace
Reply

Abdul Fattah
12-26-2005, 01:30 AM
I was raised a christian, but I soon left that religion behind me. And one of the main reasons was the trinity, it just does not make sense.

You say a person can be a father a son and husband at the same time, well thats a very nice comparison, but it is not sufiecient to explain the trinity. In fact it doesn't even relate to it at all. Being a father a son a brother and all other relationships you can come up with at the same time is not contradicting, because those words refer to relationships to difrent people. Being an omnipotence god; and being its son in human form; both at the same time IS contradicting.

Then some people say its like water, ice and gas. Well again, that's not good. water gas and ice are just human terms to refer to difrent conditions of a certain substance (H2O). Trinity refers to three difrent parts. As if a single deity is split in three. Each part with it's own charesteristics.

And why do christians believe in trinity, where does it come from? Only because Jezus was refered to as son of God in some scriptures? Well Look at your bible, there's an awfull lot of people who are refered to inthere as being son of God. In fact it is a continuance of a jewish terminology, to refer to the followers of God as "children".
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
12-26-2005, 05:02 AM
Hello Prisoner of Joy,
the trinity I read the site it said you don't believe in the trinity? why is that? curious
To make a long story short, Muslims do not accept the Trinity because it is contrary to the Old Testament, New Testament, Qur'an, and logic itself. If you want to debate the trinity, let's discuss only the trinity; not salvation, atonement, etc. Bring me even a single verse from the complete Bible which contains the doctrine of Trinity. Show me how the trinity is logically coherent.

Regards
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 06:04 AM
KJV
Isaiah 48:16:

"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."

NIV

Isaiah 48:16

16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

KJV
Then there is the baptismal formula:

"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).

NIV
Matthew 28:19

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------



JESUS -- That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:


KJV---"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).


NIV---8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
HOLY SPIRIT -- Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:


KJV---"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).




NIV---13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
The Father is the unseen Present everywhere simultaneously Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
With reference to God's creation the Father is the Thought behind it the Son is the Word calling it forth and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
Reply

F.Y.
12-26-2005, 09:19 AM
Hello, I quickly copy paste something you quoted above:
Jesus said: KJV---"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).

So who was this Spirit of truth?
If Jesus was prophesising that the Spirit of truth was to come, who was he referring to?
It cannot be himself - because he wouldn't have had the need to 'prophesise' the above; that is, something that would happen in the future.
Peace.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
12-26-2005, 02:55 PM
KJV Isaiah 48:16:
"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."
First of all this does not indicate that Jesus was divine or part of a trinity. Secondly the fact that God and his spirit are mentioned separately, does not show us that those are two different things. If there would be a verse saying: God, and all his grace…
Would then trinity become a quartet. The son (1) the father (2) the Holy Spirit (3) and his grace (4), just because in a source both are referred to separately? And I can think of a lot more divine features and characteristics that we could ad to this list. But does that mean that we have to split all these up?

NIV Isaiah 48:16
16 "Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.
Here we have the same argument as before, and it’s even clearer then before. With his spirit refers to the method. Like I thought of it with my brain, I touched it with my hand; I saw it with my eyes. So I am a quartet by myself? Steve; his brain; his eye; and his hand.

KJV Then there is the baptismal formula:
"baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:19).
NIV Matthew 28:19
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Well first of all, wasn’t this written after the misinterpretation of trinity? People started baptizing in the name of these three because they believed in trinity, not the other way around, right? And even then, just because you do something in the name of three entities does not mean those three form a trinity.

JESUS -- That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said: KJV---"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).
Well he was trying to bring an end to some misinterpretations the Jews had, and tried to start a new beginning as a prophet reaffirming what was previously told. Being the beginning and the ending of something does not mean one is God, it depends on the beginning and the ending of what. Also, Jesus in that verse claimed so why? He said so because the lord told him so. The lord which is and which was and which is to come, the almighty.

HOLY SPIRIT -- Some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
KJV---"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).
Well that’s a matter of interpretation. One could say that that suggest that the spirit of truth is an entity by itself. But it could also be that in this sentence “the spirit of truth” is used to refer to God. So it’s just another name, not a separate entity.

With reference to God's creation the Father is the Thought behind it the Son is the Word calling it forth and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
The thought equals the entity. I think therefore I am. The word is not Jesus himself just because he spread it. He is the medium through whom the word of the thought is sent. And the spirit is how the plans of God work out through his actions and through his believers. So Again, why worship three, when there is only one?
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by F.Y.
So who was this Spirit of truth?
If Jesus was prophesising that the Spirit of truth was to come, who was he referring to?
It cannot be himself - because he wouldn't have had the need to 'prophesise' the above; that is, something that would happen in the future.
Peace.
3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Yes you are right...
But Jesus was God incarnated... that is how...
you have a spirit?
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by steve


.






Well he was trying to bring an end to some misinterpretations the Jews had, and tried to start a new beginning as a prophet reaffirming what was previously told. Being the beginning and the ending of something does not mean one is God, it depends on the beginning and the ending of what. Also, Jesus in that verse claimed so why? He said so because the lord told him so. The lord which is and which was and which is to come, the almighty.

here I have a few question I been asking please answer me.... steven

Is Jesus a prophet?
Reply

lyesh
12-26-2005, 06:39 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
well I do love Jesus don't I? I believe He is something He really is not just a prophet.. prophets have moms and dads Jesus never had a earthly dad.... or a really earthly dad...

If you say that, Adam also didn't have a father just like Jesus! And Jesus had a mother, But Adam did not! So how come Jesus is God and Adam is not?

Quran was given to Muhammad. And no body can ever change it! But there are new testiments and old testiments of the bible. It keeps on changing!

If you Don't believe me, prove your word: Produce even one chapter of the Quran! Or bring a change to even one letter of the Quran! YOU CAN NEVER DO THAT!!!!!

For Allah would surely Guard the Quran!

And Allah has challenged you in the Quran:
23 And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

24 But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.




so.... PROVE IT!!! change it!!! YOU NEVER WILL!!!!! :sister:
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-26-2005, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by lyesh
If you say that, Adam also didn't have a father just like Jesus! And Jesus had a mother, But Adam did not! So how come Jesus is God and Adam is not?

Quran was given to Muhammad. And no body can ever change it! But there are new testiments and old testiments of the bible. It keeps on changing!

If you Don't believe me, prove your word: Produce even one chapter of the Quran! Or bring a change to even one letter of the Quran! YOU CAN NEVER DO THAT!!!!!

For Allah would surely Guard the Quran!

And Allah has challenged you in the Quran:
23 And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.

24 But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.




so.... PROVE IT!!! change it!!! YOU NEVER WILL!!!!! :sister:

because Jesus is God, Adam was created BY God, he is not God

what do you mean it keeps changing?
Reply

Snowflake
12-27-2005, 02:06 AM
[QUOTE=PRISONERofJOY12;134068]KJV
Isaiah 48:16:

"I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me."


Hi again,


Ok, do you know what is going on here? Exactly the same thing as if I placed a half full glass infront of you and ask you what you see. You may see a half empty glass or a half full one. You are seeing what you want to see and ignoring everything else. For one moment imagine you have no faith. You are not a follower of any religion. Your mind is like a blank canvass. Now with the sharp clarity of clear thinking, read about the contradictions in the Bible. If you had already not believed in it, would you start you believe in it when you could see the errors for yourself?? Don't believe in something because you have been conditioned by your upbringing to do so. Use the power of wisdom to learn and make your own choices in life, not follow something because you have been made to do so.

I have given you quotes from the Bible that are contradictory. You made no comment whatsoever on them. Why not? Do you select bits of the Bible that you want to believe in and ignore the rest? I will paste them again for reference.


(Matthew 27:46) - "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

(Mark 15:34) - "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

(Luke 23:46) - "And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit." And having said this, He breathed His last."


(John 19:30) - "When Jesus therefore had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head, and gave up His spirit."



Do you ignore the contradictions above? It's obvious only one of them is right (if that) and the rest are not. But which one? So clearly three of these are wrong. You are looking at proof that the Bible is contradicting itself. Now having confirmed that these contradictions do exist, proof that the Bible is brimming with false statements, can you without a shred of doubt testify that the quote you gave is the true word of Jesus???????????????????????

A Book whose original word has been manipulated to negotiate the actions of it's so called followers, cannot be accepted as the word of God, as God would not contradict Himself!!! Given the above quotes all from the Bible, even you the follower of the faith cannot tell which one is true or false. This proves that much of what you are believing to be the truth, might be nothing but cleverly fabricated lies. How can any man or woman follow a Book whose statements cannot be confirmed as true or false???????????

I can prove to you right now that Jesus might not have said any of the biblical quotes above. How can I prove this? This is how... If those (or one of those) were the last words of Jesus, how did he write them in the Bible, when he was suppose to have died on the cross? Note: It says "And jesus said..........." If Jesus himself wrote it, it would've been "And I said........." So undoubtedly, someone else wrote them. So the Bible isn't even the Divine word of God but the incoherent penmanship of some Tom **** or Harry. I must also point out to you that Jesus used no word such as 'God'. Jesus spoke Aramaic, along with Hebrew and Greek. None of these languages contain the word 'God'. Now Note, even in 2 of the above verses from the Bible, Jesus is supposed to have addressed God with the name 'Eloi'.
Similar to the muslim word Ilahi. The word God is an english word, a language that did not even exist in the Biblical times. Such is the translation of the Bible, that it cannot even give the correct name of the Creator. If I translated a script with your name in it, your name would remain the same, if changed it would not be your name at all, hence another ambiguous flaw.



In my earlier post I gave you other quotes from the Bible e.g

1. Jesus appealed to the Word of God, and so can we - cf. Ep 6:17

Does the above biblical quote ring any bells?

2. Jesus had faith in the plan of God (victory through
suffering), we need a similar shield of faith - Ep 6:16; cf.
He 10:35-39
Does 'Jesus having faith in God', not awaken in you the wisdom of being able to recognise the mentioning of two entirely different entities?

3. Jesus undoubtedly prayed, for He taught us to use prayer in
overcoming temptation - Mt 26:41 -- The Word of God, faith, and prayer...against these the devil
has no chance!

Unless a person cannot grasp the simple english language, the above quote suggests that Jesus prayed. I'm sure you agree that Jesus wasn't praying to himself but to God. If you still insist Jesus is God, then you're saying that Jesus was praying to himself. Doesn't that sound like you are making Jesus look like a man with a split personality? No, you're not saying that either? you don't think Jesus had a split personality?
So you agree he wasn't praying to himself? Then he was praying to God? You agree? So then Jesus is not God.


I know how hard it is to let go in believing something that has been drummed into us when we were too young to decide for ourselves. I'm not trying to convert you. I only want you realise that the Bible is not longer in accordance with the original teachings of Jesus (pbuh). Neither am I trying to erase the love you have in your heart for Jesus. I love Jesus too, because as a muslim I believe that Jesus is a beloved prophet of Allah. I love my religion because it acknowledges all the prophets that came to earth and not just our beloved prophet Muhammed (SAW).

Finally, I hope you can relate to this as this is my own experience. I was born and brought up as a muslim. Yet there were some aspects of my religion I could not understand as somethings did not make sense to me. I did not follow blindly because another muslim told me to do so. I sought answers to the questions I had in my head. I realised that the questions in my head were there due to my own lack of knowledge, not because of flaws in my religion.
Thanks to Allah, I found a scholar who cleared things which I did not understand. I felt somewhat ashamed of the few doubts I'd had yet enlightened by the knowledge I'd gained. I didn't believe because I was told to. I believe because I really believed.


peace be with you
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 02:46 AM
you are right...though I am sure there are reasons in this.. like the words were speaken in a dialect of Aramiac, one of the languages commonly spoken in the Holy Land in Jesus day. They reveal how deeply Jesus felt his abandonment by God as he bore "the sin of the world" ( john 1:29; but see introduction to Ps 22 ).
it is finished. Apparently the loud cry of Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37. Jesusdied as a victor and had "completed" ( v. 28; the Greek verb is the same as that for "finished") what he came to do ( cf 17:4 ). gave up his spirit. An unusual way of describing death, perhaps suggesting an act of will
( cf. 10:17-18 )

Ep 6:17 notes: sword of the Spirit ... pray in the Spirit. Reminders that the battle is spiritual and must be fought in God's strength, depending on the word and on God through prayer

only have notes for verses 38 - 39: My righteous one will live by faith. see note on Hab 2:4.
10:39 shrink back and are destroyed. the opposite of "believe and are saved." The author is confident that those to whom he is writing are, for the most part, among the saved ( 6:9 and the notes )
my notes --- 6:9 confident of better things.... that accompany salvation. Although the author has suggested the possibility that some of his readers may still be unsaved, he is confident that God has been at work among them. changed lives and works of love (v.10 ) suggest that most of them were indeed regenerated.
Mark 14:38
fall into temptation. Be attacked by temptation. Here the temptation is to be unfaithful in face of the threatening circumstances confronting them. The spirit is willing. The expression is taken from Ps 51:12 ( see note on 51:10-12
Prayer for purity--- for a pure heart, a steadfast spirit of faithfulness and a willing spirit of service. These can be his only if God does not reject him and take his Holy Spirit from him. if granted, the joy of God's salvation will return to gladden his troubled soul.
).
When one's spirit is under God's control, it strives against human weakness.


God can be any where at one time... I would like to learn more about the qur'an please...
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:25 AM
we as Christians only know what God has revealed to us..
Yes- the Trinity is a highly confusing subject to speak about. who can expect to understand God? He is beyond us. I think the very fact that it is so out of the ordinary, so hard to get our brains around. is evidence that what Christianity says about God does not originate from man. Or as C.S. Lewis puts it: "Reality, in fact, is always something you couldn't have guessed. That's one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It's a religion you couldn't have guessed." ~C.S. Lewis
Reply

F.Y.
12-27-2005, 09:04 AM
Greetings PrisonerofJoy
It seems you forget the first commandment. "Hear oh Israel, the Lord thy God is One." Most Christians nowadays do not say 'one', but 'Three'. And they base their assumptions on the ambiguous quotes you gave on the previous pages.
Did Jesus (peace be upon him), say "I am God, worship me."?. No. He never said that. In fact, when his disciples came to him, asking "Master, teach us how to pray" what did he say? He said say,
"Our Father, who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
(not 'My' kingdom come,he said Thy kingdom come)
[B]Thy[/B] will be done on earth (Not 'My' will be done, but Thy will be done)
As it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
and forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trspeass aginst us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom
(Thine is the power, not 'mine' is the power)
The power and the glory
Forever and ever
Amen."

(Excuse this if there are any mistakes. I went to an Anglican school where this was taught, and I'm simply writing from memory.)

By saying that Jesus is also God, you forget one thing. God is free from human want - eating, drinking etc etc. To ascribe human needs to Almighty God, is certainly a serious act of blasphemy. Are you also telling us, that God goes to the toilet too? (Jesus ate and drank - the food had to go somewhere...) No, Almighty God is above all that you are associating with Him.

This is what you explained above: who can expect to understand God? He is beyond us.
Indeed, God has given us a mighty instrument, the brain. But it is limited, i agree with you there. But what God has revealed to us, it is not to confuse us. It is simple. Worship one God, without ascribing any partners to him. Unfortunately, centuries of 'trusted' people, changing and modifying the Bible from its original state have caused this confusion. The original version of the Bible, unfortunately, does not exist anymore. All these chages made have cuased so much confusion, that Christians have divided into many sects and use hundreds of different versions of Bibles.
It is also scary to see, that in many Christian churches, they erect statues of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and even statues of Jesus himself. Another commandment broken - "Thou shalt not make graven images."

We as Muslims believe in what was sent to the Prophet Jesus, as was sent to the Prophet Moses, that is, the Bible and Torah. However, the original versions only. We cannot agree to the changed and 'meddled-in' versions people read nowadays. We believe the Quran is the last testament, the final testament. We believe the Quran confirms what was originally revelead to Jesus and Moses before.

Peace to you
Reply

F.Y.
12-27-2005, 09:30 AM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

Yes you are right...
But Jesus was God incarnated... that is how...
you have a spirit?
Sorry, I forgot to answer your query in my previous post, so i'll do it now.

Think about this too. Let's put it like this: God is 'running the show', right? But if, according to your belief, God died, then...who is running the show? God does not die.

I wont answer the question about whether I have a spirit just yet. As Bro. Ansar explained above, the topic is about the Trinity, so let's discuss that first.
You see, you quoted Jesus said: KJV---"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come" (John 16:13).
Here, Jesus is prophesising the advent of someone. I have never seen so many masculine pronouns in one sentence. 7 masculine pronouns, if I am correct. If a spirit is a 'spirit', then do you not think the correct pronoun to use would be 'it' instead of 'he'? We as Muslims believe that in this sentence, Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was talking about the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). If we break the above verse down into components, we can also support the fact that Jesus was talking about Muhammad (peace upon them both). Unfortunately, I am in a bit of a rush at the moment and we'll have to talk about this later.

To clarify also the question you asked Lyesh about Adam. yes, Adam was created by God. All Lyesh is saying, is that Jesus was also a creation of God. She is trying to say, that Adam has more of a right to be called 'Son of God' because he had no human father and no human mother. Jesus however, although he had no human father, he had a human mother.

You would be very welcome to read the Quran. It is your right. I am sure you will find the Chapter of Mary very interesting. We hold Mary, the mother of Jesus in very high regard. We also see Jesus as one of the greatest Prophets sent by Almighty God.

Peace bro.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 02:14 PM
yeah your right Jesus is not God he is a word from God... even if the word of God never have came the trinity would have still stayed... alive... Jesus was with God the father from the beginning.. long before any other human
Reply

Abdul Fattah
12-27-2005, 03:45 PM
here I have a few question I been asking please answer me.... steven

Is Jesus a prophet?
Yes I believe he was.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 03:48 PM
if a prophet speaks untruth or a lie is he still a prophet? steven
Reply

Abdul Fattah
12-27-2005, 03:51 PM
I never said he lied, I said christians misinterpret him. Two difrent things.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 03:53 PM
Jesus said I am the way... I am sure you know the rest...
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Abdul Fattah
12-27-2005, 03:58 PM
First of all, no I don't know what follows on that sentence
Secondly since when is
I am the way = I am God?
thirdly maybe it's time to mention that christianity has frequently altered the bible. the vatican even posted an open leter recently that whole chapters of the bible are made up.
Reply

lyesh
12-27-2005, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
because Jesus is God, Adam was created BY God, he is not God

what do you mean it keeps changing?
How do you know? If you say that Jesus is God, because he did not have a father, then Adam also did not have a father!! and he didn't even have a mother!!! JESUS HIMSELF WAS CREATED BY ALLAH!!! AND ADAM WAS ALSO CREATED BY ALLAH!!! so Jesus can't be God!!!

I told you! Prove your word! can you do that! Prove it! PROVE IT by producing even one chapter of the Quran! prove it by changing the Quran! You can never do it!!!!! If you say that Jesus is God then Prove your word!!! whats the answer you have for that? no answer? :)
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S_87
12-27-2005, 04:02 PM
where did jesus say he was God. where did it ever mention trinity in the original Bible? by calling Jesus God you are putting up a lie against him
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by lyesh
How do you know? If you say that Jesus is God, because he did not have a father, then Adam also did not have a father!! and he didn't even have a mother!!! JESUS HIMSELF WAS CREATED BY ALLAH!!! AND ADAM WAS ALSO CREATED BY ALLAH!!! so Jesus can't be God!!!

I told you! Prove your word! can you do that! Prove it! PROVE IT by producing even one chapter of the Quran! prove it by changing the Quran! You can never do it!!!!! If you say that Jesus is God then Prove your word!!! whats the answer you have for that? no answer? :)

because JESUS IS THE WORD and the WORD came from GOD that is how... THE SPIRIT is GODS SPIRIT.. for instance if this helps... no one knows you better than you.... now the things you know just think how much God knows... GOd knows everything... so the spirit is sent to remind us of what we have learned.
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S_87
12-27-2005, 04:04 PM
explain the trinity plz
Reply

Snowflake
12-27-2005, 04:15 PM
The word spirit has several meanings e.g 'She received her visitors in good spirits' meaning a good mood.

You are not even reading the original Bible which was written in Hebrew and Greek, but a translation. As you have seen the biblical contradictions, how can you assume that the translations are correct? And why do you continually ignore the contradictions? What have you got to say about the errors in the Bible?
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 04:17 PM
Yes, the Trinity is a highly confusing subject to speak about. However, who can expect to understand God? He is beyond us.

but here it goes... in the beginning was the word ( JESUS ), and the Word was with God. and the WORD WAS GOD. He was with God in the beginning... when you make up something it is your words...so to God it is Gods words...
now the WORD becomes flesh before the JESUS DIED JESUS SAID THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL COME AND remind you everything that I HAVE SPOKEN..
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Nadia Waheed
The word spirit has several meanings e.g 'She received her visitors in good spirits' meaning a good mood.

You are not even reading the original Bible which was written in Hebrew and Greek, but a translation. As you have seen the biblical contradictions, how can you assume that the translations are correct? And why do you continually ignore the contradictions? What have you got to say about the errors in the Bible?
all that matters is the message... it is only a few errors but again I have given you notes that suggest reasons on the errors.. so the errors are nothing that we don't know about.. pluss in REVELATIONS it says


18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen

so they really had no reason to change it..
Reply

lyesh
12-27-2005, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
because JESUS IS THE WORD and the WORD came from GOD that is how... THE SPIRIT is GODS SPIRIT.. for instance if this helps... no one knows you better than you.... now the things you know just think how much God knows... GOd knows everything... so the spirit is sent to remind us of what we have learned.
Jesus never said that!!!! If he is God then he should have told that!
I said prove ur word!!!!!!!!!!
if thts the truth prove it!!!!!!!!
and i told u before how you should prove it!!!!!
Make one chapter of the Quran and show us!!!!!!
PROVE IT!!!!!
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- Qatada -
12-27-2005, 04:32 PM
The trinity is really confusing and that is what causes people to turn away..

Your right that we dont understand God completely - but this is why God knows we cant, hence God makes it easier for people to understand.

Religions easy, and if it was so complicated - then people would turn away, this has happened to alot of christians and believing in One God Alone, without any partners, and that is the Only God we turn to and ask for help makes it easier for us to believe.

I've asked this again and again, but i want to ask - even though God did make jesus (peace be upon him) born without a father, what made God choose jesus as his Own son?

God doesn't need any children to put His Message across, all He needs to do is send messengers to put His Point forward, isn't that more easier and more real to believe?
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POBook
12-27-2005, 04:39 PM
Regarding the Trinity: If you take a cube of ice...you have ice. If you melt this cube of ice, you have water. If you heat this water, you have steam. If you freeze this steam, you have ice. This ONE "piece" of water can be manifested in three ways. It is not water, gas, and metal--three different things. God is God; He is also Jesus Christ; He is also the Holy Spirit--3 in 1, not three in three.
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- Qatada -
12-27-2005, 04:43 PM
Good point.

But we still dont believe that God is so weak that he has to sacrifice himself to forgive the sins of humans.

Thats an embarassing situation - for God to place himself on a cross and let people drive nails through his hands, yet he wont stop them. Then later to say that its being done to save the future generations..


I'm sorry i'm not trying to offend anyone in no way - but we believe God can easily forgive sins if you turn towards Him in repentance.
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Abdul Fattah
12-27-2005, 04:45 PM
See the problem with the H2O example is that water gas and ice are just difrent states of the same thing. Wheras son father and spirit suggest 3 difrent pieces. Not three times the same thing in a difrent state but three difrent enteties who form one.
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The trinity is really confusing and that is what causes people to turn away..

Your right that we dont understand God completely - but this is why God knows we cant, hence God makes it easier for people to understand.

Religions easy, and if it was so complicated - then people would turn away, this has happened to alot of christians and believing in One God Alone, without any partners, and that is the Only God we turn to and ask for help makes it easier for us to believe.

I've asked this again and again, but i want to ask - even though God did make jesus (peace be upon him) born without a father, what made God choose jesus as his Own son?

God doesn't need any children to put His Message across, all He needs to do is send messengers to put His Point forward, isn't that more easier and more real to believe?
it might have been easier to do that.. but would that really have showed what God also stands for? caring, loving.. Jesus himself is the word that became flesh... I am sorry I can't explain things more easier... but just because I don't understand something doesn't make me turn away.. as again when I am in heaven all of our questions will be answered.
agian it is the message that brought me here.. it isn't about who God is as because God doesn't care who I am ( personality wise )
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*shamz*
12-27-2005, 05:02 PM
God has no son, daughter, wife or anything like that. God is one and alone and Muhammad(saw) is his final messenger.
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
satan will try to lead people away about who Jesus really is... though I am not saying anything about the muslim believe... good luck... :confused: :peace:
:sl:

Exactly that why Christians world wide are commiting shirk
Reply

- Qatada -
12-27-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
can you prove that the quran is gods words?

yeah. not even one letter of the qur'an has never been changed since its been revealed and never will be changed till the day of judgement.

this is a promise from Allah, and if you want proof - you can go anywhere in the world and look at the qur'an, its never been altered one bit.


Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY
it might have been easier to do that.. but would that really have showed what God also stands for? caring, loving.. Jesus himself is the word that became flesh... I am sorry I can't explain things more easier... but just because I don't understand something doesn't make me turn away..
we've shown verses repeatedly which show Allah's Mercy towards the believers.

in one hadith; Allaah the Most Merciful says:


O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

Hadith Qudsi 34.


the facts are so clear to everyone yet people keep denying them:

And when Our clear communications are recited to them you will find denial on the faces of those who disbelieve; they almost spring upon those who recite to them Our communications. Say: Shall I inform you of what is worse than this? The fire; Allah has promised it to those who disbelieve; and how evil the resort! (22:72)


dont you think God would make His signs clear to you so you may understand? or would God rather make you follow your faith blindly without understanding?


Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY
as again when I am in heaven all of our questions will be answered. agian it is the message that brought me here..
yeah i agree. :) we will find out the truth one day.. for certainty.


Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY
it isn't about who God is as because God doesn't care who I am ( personality wise )

God does care about us..

...Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). (9:04)


( Say [oh, Muhammad!]: "If you love Allah, follow me: Allah will forgive you your sins, for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.) (Quran: 3:31)
Reply

azim
12-27-2005, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
Yes, the Trinity is a highly confusing subject to speak about. However, who can expect to understand God? He is beyond us.

but here it goes... in the beginning was the word ( JESUS ), and the Word was with God. and the WORD WAS GOD. He was with God in the beginning... when you make up something it is your words...so to God it is Gods words...
now the WORD becomes flesh before the JESUS DIED JESUS SAID THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL COME AND remind you everything that I HAVE SPOKEN..
The quote your using to explain the trinity is from Gospel of John, Verse 1 yeh?

A very famous speaker among muslims, Dr. Zakir Naik, explains this verse in one of his lectures.

In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with God and the Word was God.

Dr. Naik explains the original is in Greek, though Jesus spoke aramaic/hebrew. He explains that if you were to replace 'Word' with just God, the whole sentence fails to make sense, despite this being technically accurate since the 'the Word was God'.

In the beginning there was God. God was with God and God was God.

He explains the first time God is used, in the original Greek, it was 'Hotheos' (sorry about spelling, I'm doing this from video, so have no idea how to spell it).

In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with Hotheos and the Word was God.

Hoetheos means THE GOD.

The second time God is use, its Thontheos. Which means a god. A godly person.

In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with Hotheos and the Word was Thontheos.

So...

In the beginning there was the Word. The Word was with GOD ALMIGHTY and the Word was a god. (The same way Moses is described as being sent as a god to his people).

I highly urge you to watch the video Islam and Christiannity by Zakir Naik.

It can be downloaded here: -

http://server1.aswatalislam.net/Audi...islam.net).wmv

and

http://server1.aswatalislam.net/Audi...islam.net).wmv

They aren't very big files and they are very very good.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by *shamz*
God has no son, daughter, wife or anything like that. God is one and alone and Muhammad(saw) is his final messenger.
so God can't have son why is that? what about Jesus his virgin birth? who do you think the father is? come on think... it will come to you soon...
muhammad might have saw someone other than God I mean come on who do you think the best trickter is? look at john smith... mormonism...
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
so God can't have son why is that? what about Jesus his virgin birth? who do you think the father is? come on think... it will come to you soon...
Why does he need a father? Just because it makes no logical sense to us that a person cannot be created without a male and female taking part does not mean that God cannot create such. It is a miracle of God that he was created wtihout a male present. SubhanAllah

It like saying how did Jesus heal lepers, secretly e must have been someone with great medical experience, truly it is not the case, he simply performed miracles given to him by the grace of God Almighty

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 06:09 PM
Can we stick to the point at hand here, we are arguing the trinity.....:)

PrisonerOf Joy - Why Does Jesus Need A Father?

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 06:12 PM
Salaam

I tend to think of this as a form of dawa, since arguing is not permisable even in Religious matters
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
Why does he need a father? Just because it makes no logical sense to us that a person cannot be created without a male and female taking part does not mean that God cannot create such. It is a miracle of God that he was created wtihout a male present. SubhanAllah

It like saying how did Jesus heal lepers, secretly e must have been someone with great medical experience, truly it is not the case, he simply performed miracles given to him by the grace of God Almighty

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Hmmm.... He was born of a virgin so we wrongly believe he is the Son of God?... Immaculate conception is just one of the many reasons we believe he is the Son of God ( God the Son, a member of the trinity). There are many other reasons to belive that Jesus is the Son of God (which i obviously can't state here for the sake of brevity).
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 06:17 PM
I can understand using "son of God" as a term, but to imply that he is actually a part of God is wrong.

Let me ask you something....Who created God?(i dont mean Jesus, I mean God)


Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
Hmmm.... He was born of a virgin so we wrongly believe he is the Son of God?... Immaculate conception is just one of the many reasons we believe he is the Son of God ( God the Son, a member of the trinity). There are many other reasons to belive that Jesus is the Son of God (which i obviously can't state here for the sake of brevity).
Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 check out this link

http://www.zippyvideos.com/374043618...cles_of_islam/
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:20 PM
no one created him.. as it states in the BIBLE in genesis to.. in the beginning, GOD...

GOD is outside of time( it doesn't state this but it is what Heaven is ) time is only for this world.


this is something I read..

"If God had chosen to, He could have sent Jesus to this earth as a fully grown, yet sinless human being. A shaft of light could have come out from heaven with Jesus descending to the ground as an adult man. But if Jesus came to us in that way, who could have related to Him as a person, as a part of the human race? God also could have had Jesus come into the world through two ordinary human beings—but still with a divine nature. But then most of us would have doubted His divinity. That's why the Incarnation makes sense." - Greg Laurie.
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 06:25 PM
Ok you ahve just replied that no-one created him.

Why is it not then possible that Jesus was created by God with only a mother and no father....that it is truly a miracle of God and not that he is the father figure.

God is the father of all of us. I dont mean biological but our creator and our leader.

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:30 PM
I think some people get confused with the terminology 'Son'. Sex is the human act required to create a son, however this most definitely does not mean that God had sex to create his Son. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) Jesus is called the Son of God because Jesus has the same nature and character traits of God, not because He had sex with Mary or anything ludicrous like that.. Pardon me.. i tried to word that differently because i know it sounds crude but I didnt want to beat around the bush. I have a feeling that some Muslims are turned off the whole idea of a "son of God" because it seems to be implying an animal nature in God.
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 06:31 PM
Salaam
http://www.jamaat.net/bible/AwakeArticle(1957).html
A Must read
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 06:33 PM
All we' re trying to say is that Jesus is a beloved Prophet of God howevere, he is a Prophet and not a son. He is not part of God any mroe than Moses, or Abraham etc His birth was certainly miraculous and that is definitely something to be amazed by. Truly a wonder of Allah.

May I ask what exactly is the Holy ghost, or spirit?

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:43 PM
the third person in the Trinity; Jesus promised the Apostles that he would send the Holy Spirit after his Crucifixion and Resurrection; it came on Pentecost...

it is the third person... the Father- creator of all things.. then the son ( the word )created by the Father. then the spirit from both Father and Son... while they are up there the Holy Spirit is down here to give us comfert in our lifes while the Son is up there preparing a place for us to live...
I myself am not a scholor of knowing exactly understand God.. I do know what He is like.. as Jesus stated.. if you know me you would know the Father.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
tell me an error... you must really think I don't have much faith in Christ.
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 06:57 PM
Why did Jesus eat drink etc while he was here on earth?

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
tell me an error... you must really think I don't have much faith in Christ.
Salaam
Jesus is talking of signs that will happen before the end of the world to his disciples)

(Notice: Jesus probably thought the stars were little lights attached to a solid rotating sky dome like everyone else at that time)

(Mat 24:29 NRSV) "Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; *the stars will fall from heaven*, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

(Mat 24:30 NRSV) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.

(Jesus now says to his disciples that their generation will not pass away before the end of the world)

(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.

(Their generation did pass away, but the world didn't end)
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 06:59 PM
Salaam
(Notice: Jesus probably thought the stars were little lights attached to a solid rotating sky dome like everyone else at that time) May allah forgive me for posting this as
it was lifted form a site.
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Rabi'ya
Why did Jesus eat drink etc while he was here on earth?

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
that isn't a very good question we all know he was still very much human
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 07:06 PM
So is God human?

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

*Hana*
12-27-2005, 07:07 PM
Salam Alaikum and peace PrisonerofJoy:

I have just spent the past 30 minutes or so reading over this thread and I would like to offer this for you to think about:

At one point you tried to describe the trinity as 1 person being a father, brother, son, etc. This type of logic won't work. When I am with my son, I am a mom, with my sister I am a sister, with my mom I am a daughter. However, my knowledge doesn't change. Meaning the knowledge I have as a mom, doesn't change when I take on the role of daughter, etc. All my knowledge remains completely intact. That same logic cannot be applied to Jesus, pbuh. If Jesus, pbuh, were part of a trinity and therefore God, He would have knowledge of all things....just as God does. But, he didn't have that luxury. Mark 13:31-32 “Heaven and the earth shall pass away but my word shall not pass away, but of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in the heaven nor the Son but the Father.” One of the attributes of God is omniscience, knowledge of all things. So, his denial of knowledge of the Day of Judgement is also a denial of divinity, for one who does not know the time of the final hour cannot possibly be God.

Your analogy of ice, water and steam doesn't work either. Once steam evaporates, it's gone. The 3 cannot be put back together. Therefore, they are not 3 in 1.

If you take His miracles as proof He is divine, then you must also assume that others who performed the same miracles are also divine. You can't use this logic and attritute divinity to one and not the others. Let me give you some examples: Jesus fed 5,000 people with five loaves of bread and two fish. Elisha fed 100 people with twenty barley loaves and a few ears of corn (II Kings 4:44); Jesus healed lepers. Elisha cured Naaman the leper (II Kings 5:14); Jesus caused the blind to see. Elisha caused the blind to see (II Kings 6:17&20); Jesus raised the dead. Elijah did the same (I Kings 17:22). So did Elisha (II Kings 4:34). Even Elisha’s bones could restore the dead (II Kings 13:21); Jesus walked on water. Moses and his people crossed the dead sea (Exodus 14:22).

There are also texts in the New Testament which confirm that Jesus did not act on his own. Jesus is quoted in John 5:30, as saying: “I can of mine own self do nothing...” and in Luke 11:20, as saying, “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the Kingdom of God is come upon you.” In Acts 2:22, Paul writes: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs which God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know...”

I think this post is long enough, but you should also ask yourself, why God, who is just and all merciful, would allow an innocent man to suffer such horrific atrocities and torture to take away sins, when He has the power to do that on His own. He doesn't need a middle man to have the power to forgive. Does this really seem just to you?

Anyway, I hope this gives you something more to think about. :)

Take care and wasalam,
Hana
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 07:11 PM
:sl: Hana

JazakAllah for your post, I can see you ahve been thinking about it alot...nice contribution :) mashallah

some very valid points

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 07:12 PM
ummm.....takbir(i think thats what you wanna say ) lol

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:

Ps this question still stands for any non-Muslim who wants to answer....following PrisonerOf Truths answer that Jesus was human

Is God human?
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 07:13 PM
ok then 3 Takbirs then :D

ALLAH HU AKBAR
ALLAH HU AKBAR
ALLAH HU AKBAR

:D
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:19 PM
luke 21:29 Look at the fig tree. The coming of spring is announced by the greening of the trees ( cf. Matthew 24:32-35;Mark 11:13 and note; 13:28-31). in a similar way, one can anticipate the coming of the kingdom when its signs are seen. But " kingdom" is used in different ways ( see note on 4:43 ). The reference in v.31 is to the future kingdom.
Mark 11:13 note-- not the season for figs. fig trees around jerusalem normally begin to get leaves in march or april but do not produce figs until their leaves are all out in june. This tree was an exception in that it was already, at passover time, full of leaves.

in Luke 21:32
This generation. if reference here is to the destruction of the Jerusalem that occurred about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words, "generetion" is used in its ordinary sence of a normal life span. "All thse things" would then have been fulfilled in the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem. on the other hand, if reference here is to the second coming of Christ, "generation" might refer to a future generation alive at the beginning of "these things." It does not mean that jesus had a mistaken notion he was going to return immediately
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 07:20 PM
ok this may seem very "insulting " to you but believe me it is not meant to be insulting at all! Wallahi!

Now Hindus often tell me that they consider the feaces (popo and pepe) of their Animal Gods to be holy.

Would you consider the excrements of Jesus to be holy as well since EVERYTHING about him was holy according to your faith?
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 07:23 PM
If Jesus is God and Jesus is human then does that mean God is human(astaghfirullah)???

You see, these things simply dont add up, if you cant understand what it is that you are believing then why believe it? this is a basic of your faith adn you cannot understand it enought o explain it simply.

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
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akulion
12-27-2005, 07:26 PM
Also I would like to know how can you say all of Bible is the Truth when it is talking about Unicorns...can you show me a unicorn or prove they exist?
Deuteronomy 33:17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns
The only explanation I got of this yet was from a guy who said, A Unicorn is basically a Horse with a Horn
...uumm ok but where are they?

additionally why do christians eat pork when it is forbidden in the scriptures?
"And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 11:7-8)".
Reply

*Hana*
12-27-2005, 07:27 PM
Salam Alaikum and Peace:

PrisonerofJoy, no disrespect, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying figs are foretelling the day of judgement? See, the problem is, God, in the bible said He is not the author of confusion. So, if you take text and try to turn it to suit a purpose, it won't work. The apples on my trees came very early this year....but I don't think that was a sign of the day of Judgement.

Maybe that's not what you meant? :confused: Maybe you can elaborate a bit more. :)

Wasalam,
Hana
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Salam Alaikum and Peace:

PrisonerofJoy, no disrespect, but I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying figs are foretelling the day of judgement? See, the problem is, God, in the bible said He is not the author of confusion. So, if you take text and try to turn it to suit a purpose, it won't work. The apples on my trees came very early this year....but I don't think that was a sign of the day of Judgement.

Maybe that's not what you meant? :confused: Maybe you can elaborate a bit more. :)

Wasalam,
Hana
no I am saying that you know when the grass of the ground or the trees will sprout its leaves by the signs.. that spring is coming
Reply

*Hana*
12-27-2005, 07:31 PM
Salam Alaikum and Peace:

Ummmm, ok, a creative design by God, but what does that have to do with the divinity of Jesus, pbuh?

Wasalam
Hana
Reply

Muhammad
12-27-2005, 07:32 PM
Greetings,

Yes, the Trinity is a highly confusing subject to speak about. However, who can expect to understand God? He is beyond us.
(emphasis added)

How can the core of your religion be this confusing, when you complain that Islam is too difficult? In Islam, the very basic principle about God is so easy that even a child can explain to an adult within half a minute, if not less: God is One! He has no partner; no son; none that are like Him. The Qur'an enforces this monotheistic belief again and again, from the very opening chapter. There is no contradiction, nor bending over backward trying to explain the most fundamental belief underpinning the whole religion.

all that matters is the message... it is only a few errors but again I have given you notes that suggest reasons on the errors.. so the errors are nothing that we don't know about.. pluss in REVELATIONS it says
(emphasis added)

Which notes are these that explain the contradictions?

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
You admit that adding and taking away is wrong, yet why do we find errors then? Surely the Bible should have been perfect like the Qur'an if it were the Words of God?

so they really had no reason to change it..
And here you admit there have been changes, thus how can you adhere to a book that has been changed; despite the fact that it orders not to be?

Peace.

P.S. The posts regarding the Bible and the Qur'an have been moved to the respective thread; please try to stay on topic!
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by akulion
Also I would like to know how can you say all of Bible is the Truth when it is talking about Unicorns...can you show me a unicorn or prove they exist?


The only explanation I got of this yet was from a guy who said, A Unicorn is basically a Horse with a Horn
...uumm ok but where are they?

additionally why do christians eat pork when it is forbidden in the scriptures?
Jesus abolished the the OLD LAW.... HENCE OLD TESTAMENT.. and made a new law

your gur an is not perfect... I am sorry who ever told you that is very much wrong...excuse me while I check for a phrophecy .... ?

it says that natural disasters will be like birth pains

meaning the natural disasters will come more often and will steadily get worse and worse
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 07:33 PM
Oh so if the Bible is obselete then why use it now?

Additionally that would mean that Old Tastament can no longer be Quoted for any sorts of evidence yea?

Plus what about the Unicorns? Did they ever exist?
Reply

Rabi'ya
12-27-2005, 07:34 PM
and mine....

:w:

Rabi'ya:rose:
Reply

*Hana*
12-27-2005, 07:37 PM
Salam Alaikum, and Peace:

Whoa, Jesus, pbuh, did not come to abolish the law, He came to fullfill it. What makes you think He came to change it. You are saying something completely opposite to the bible here. :eek:

Paul changed it, not Jesus, pbuh.

And, I forgot to mention you also said the trinity is confusing. Your entire salvation is based on something you can't explain and Jesus, pbuh, never taught. As I mentioned before, God said He was not the author of confusion. Does it make sense that he would make something as serious as your salvation totally confusing without any possibility of logical explanation?

Wasalam
Hana
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by akulion
Also I would like to know how can you say all of Bible is the Truth when it is talking about Unicorns...can you show me a unicorn or prove they exist?


The only explanation I got of this yet was from a guy who said, A Unicorn is basically a Horse with a Horn
...uumm ok but where are they?

additionally why do christians eat pork when it is forbidden in the scriptures?

you are mistaken it says ox.... his horns are the horns of a wild ox
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
you are mistaken it says ox.... his horns are the horns of a wild ox
nope it says Unicorns and im quoting Bible.com KJV
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by Hana_Aku
Salam Alaikum, and Peace:

Whoa, Jesus, pbuh, did not come to abolish the law, He came to fullfill it. What makes you think He came to change it. You are saying something completely opposite to the bible here. :eek:

Paul changed it, not Jesus, pbuh.

And, I forgot to mention you also said the trinity is confusing. Your entire salvation is based on something you can't explain and Jesus, pbuh, never taught. As I mentioned before, God said He was not the author of confusion. Does it make sense that he would make something as serious as your salvation totally confusing without any possibility of logical explanation?

Wasalam
Hana
in your eyes the trinity is confusing.. I did not say I was confused by it...
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by akulion
nope it says Unicorns and im quoting Bible.com KJV
there is where you are off track I am qouting from the NIV.. each versions are each seperately translated from the original.
Reply

*Hana*
12-27-2005, 07:45 PM
Salam Alaikum and Peace:

Ohhh, ok, my mistake. I have been trying for many years to have it explained to me. If you understand it, please explain it to me. I would appreciate it very much.

Oh, and I should have posted this in my last reply and I didn't. I don't like to say things without showing the verses. I apologize for not posting it before but this should explain why I said you are going against what the bible says:

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus stated: “17 Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the [way of] the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. 18For, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.”

However, Paul, who claimed to be a disciple of Jesus, systematically cancelled the laws. In his letter to the Romans, chapter 7:6, he stated, “But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.”

Wasalam
Hana
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 07:46 PM
Well so see the translations keep changing things around!!

Either ways you said the Quran is not perfect

can you show me examples?

Simplified versions...im not a big reader of long posts lol
Reply

PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 08:01 PM
MODERATOR'S COMMENT: THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS THE TRINITY. COPY AND PASTING ALLEGATIONS AGAINST THE QUR'AN IS A CHEAP COP-OUT FROM A DEBATE. ALL YOUR ALLEGATIONS HAVE BEEN REFUTED HERE:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by islam-truth
Salaam
Jesus is talking of signs that will happen before the end of the world to his disciples)


(Mat 24:29 NRSV) "Immediately after the suffering of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; *the stars will fall from heaven*, and the powers of heaven will be shaken.

(Mat 24:30 NRSV) Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see 'the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven' with power and great glory.

(Jesus now says to his disciples that their generation will not pass away before the end of the world)

(Mat 24:34 NRSV) Truly I tell you, *this generation will not pass away* until all these things have taken place.

(Their generation did pass away, but the world didn't end)
Salaam

PRISONERofJOY12 You asked about the errors in the bible and I've listed them so how come no reply
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 08:11 PM
I see you are not very well versed with History it seems.

You are the 1st person in History to be making these claims

There are no contradictions in the Quranic writings anywhere and I dont see you giving any evidence about your claims on these coins or anythig.

Also I think you need to watch the PBS documentary "Islam Empire of Faith" which is made by american non-muslim Historians and sociologists/anthropoligists and they tell the story of the Man who changed the world for the better And he is Mohammed (sa) not Jesus.

The Qibla was changed through the Quran - on one hand you can tell me Jesus abolished the old law and on the other hand you dont give me the comfort of saying "Quran aboloshid the Bible" ?
Thats double Standard..

Quite frankly with the advent of the Quran ... the bible became obselete

Oh and you completely failed to show me discrepencies IN the Quran

All you did was make claims ABOUT which you havent backed up with valid non-pro-christian / anti-Islamic sites or otherwise
Reply

mdd
12-27-2005, 08:42 PM
TO LEARN MORE ON THAT ISSUE &MORE CONCERNING WITH ISLAM AND CHIRSTIANITY WHAY DONT WE REFER TO THOSE SPECIALIST
PLEASE IF U WANT TO LEAN MORE LOG ON THE FOLLOWING WEBS
www.ahmed-deedat.co.za/frameset.asp THERE YOU CAN FIND ALL YOU NEED BUT quıkly go to www.jamaat.net/deedat.htm
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by dsfas
Because he was banned, idiot. Pay more attention next time.
Salaam

And why was banned and whats with the attitude I only asked a question
Reply

dsfas
12-27-2005, 08:53 PM
Also, let me clarify a few things.







Jesus is not GOD, Reason for saying this:

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not

When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....

4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.




Jesus sits at the right hand side of God's throne in heaven. He is not God, but God's son.


And the Holy Spirit was sent down after Jesus rose from the dead to be with the Christians. The Holy Spirit is what tells you that what youre doing is wrong, even though you dont know why you feel that its wrong. That sort of thing. I'll explain in more detail if you would like.
Reply

Ghazi
12-27-2005, 09:02 PM
Salaam

I agree he shouldn't have been banned we musn't give up on Dawa the phophet was assulted but yet he never gave up on people.

The prophet Mohammed had a neighbor who was a Jewish merchant and the Jew would throw his garbage on Mohammed's land every day, but Mohammed was patient and behaved well with him. One day the Jew did not throw his garbage in Mohammed's land so Mohammed went to see what was wrong and found the Jew with his son, who was sick and dying. So Mohammed told him, say 'there is no god but Allah'. So the son looked at his father, he is a Jew, what should he do? The father told his son to obey Mohammed."
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 09:07 PM
I think that other guy got banned cos he was plagarizing from some site and just copying and pasting all the things

but dont know for sure

Copying and pasting things from anti-Islamic sites is against the rules of the board I believe

too many people keep doing it in the past

PLUS all of those areguments are already refuted in the refutations thread
Reply

dsfas
12-27-2005, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by akulion
I think that other guy got banned cos he was plagarizing from some site and just copying and pasting all the things

but dont know for sure

Copying and pasting things from anti-Islamic sites is against the rules of the board I believe

too many people keep doing it in the past

PLUS all of those areguments are already refuted in the refutations thread
Was it in quotes or did he just copy/paste?

Does the website he copied it from have a copyright policy?


Plagarizing isnt that big a deal is it?

Will I get banned for hotlinking images?



Heres a hotlinked bible:

bible 1 -


And also, just so I know, could someone please put up a list of all the anti-islamic websites? Okay, thanks.





:rant:
Reply

akulion
12-27-2005, 09:18 PM
lol no i believe the last post he made was edited by a mod i large red text

I and some other members had asked him to show us the errors in the Quran which he was claiming

And I came too late the post had already been edited but I think he just copied the whole --------- ----- website or something there lol

its crazy man!

I say always as Solomon(pbuh) said once:
Speech should be simple and silence is golden

The longer posts put me to sleepo
Reply

*Hana*
12-27-2005, 10:38 PM
Salam Alaikum:

Dsfas...what is with the attitude? Had you been part of this thread earlier you would realize this member was banned AFTER Islam-truth made his post. There is no need to call a brother an idiot.....especially when it comes back to bite you. Please show a little more respect and tact when you're posting.

Also, had you seen PrisonerofJoy's post, which you didn't because it was edited long ago, you would have understood what akulion was saying.

If you're looking for the most common anti-Islamic sites, I can only recommend you do what most of us have already done to be better prepared to respond to such comments.....research the net.

Since the originator of this topic has been banned, which I personally think was not the best option, this thread is now closed anyway.

I apologize if I offended anyone.

May Allah, swt, continue to guide us all. Ameen

Wa'alaikum salam
Hana
Reply

Muezzin
12-27-2005, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by dsfas
Was it in quotes or did he just copy/paste?

Does the website he copied it from have a copyright policy?


Plagarizing isnt that big a deal is it?
Erm, yes actually, it is.

Will I get banned for hotlinking images?
Nope, because one can see the source of the image. It's not plagiarism if you cite the source - it's a reference. Plagiarism is where you try to pass off someone else's work as your own.

And also, just so I know, could someone please put up a list of all the anti-islamic websites? Okay, thanks.
Try Private messaging a mod since posting links to such sites are against the forum rules.
Reply

dsfas
12-28-2005, 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Nope, because one can see the source of the image. It's not plagiarism if you cite the source - it's a reference. Plagiarism is where you try to pass off someone else's work as your own.

I know what plagiarism is. I'm talking about hotlinking. Why isn't that against the rules?

Hotlinking could possibly land you in more trouble than copying and pasting content from the internet.

Hotlinking an image can/is considered bandwidth theft. Now this website (islamicboard.com) is stealing bandwidth from another website (cleanstream.net)

Not only is this bandwidth theft, but if the hotlinked site (cleanstream.net) were to run out of bandwidth, the owner of that website could simply check to see where his bandwidth went. This website would show up as stealing bandwidth.

If that situation were to arise, the owner of this website (islamicboard.com) is subject to theft charges and Denial of Service, which is very very serious. Denial of Service violations such as this one could result in up to six months in prison or up to a 10,000 dollar fine.


So, hotlinking is allowed, but copy/paste isnt? Funny.
Reply

- Qatada -
12-28-2005, 12:54 AM
Yup - but thats a totally different topic.

Plus thats a rule on the site, so if you find some sort of rule which doesn't allow this site, from the cleanstream.net servers - then please tell us about it.


Now lets stick to the topic.
Reply

Muhammad
12-28-2005, 01:23 AM
:sl:

PrisonerofJoy has only been temporarily banned for 3 days, after which he will be allowed back on to this site. The reason for this was his constant evasion of debate by copying articles from other websites.

Seeing as we do not seem to have anything beneficial to discuss in his absence, this thread shall be closed until there is a need for its re-opening, Insha'Allaah.

:w:
Reply

Andaraawus
12-28-2005, 11:16 AM
:: TRINITY AND THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST ::


"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father,
the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.";

Most Christians believe that: “The three persons are co-equal and co-eternal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotenet”. (The Catholic encyclopedia)

::Facts about the trinity::

This text does not appear in the most ancient greek manuscripts.
It has been omitted from Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, New English Bible, Phillips Modern English Bible.
The Scholars of Christianity say this verse was interpolated into the text around late 4th century.

Dr. C.I. Schofield and 32 other Scholars backed assisted by a committee of representatives of fifty co-operative denominations came to the conclusion about this verse “It is generally agreed that this verse has no manuscript authority and has been inserted”

Another commentary of the Bible reads:

"The famous interpolation after "three witnesses" is not printed even in RSV, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus." (Peakes commentary of the Bible)

The historian Edward Gibbon coined it as a "Pious Fraud" in his famous history book `Decline and Fall of Roman Empire'.

The Qur’an says

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ

O people of the Scripture, do not go to extremes in your religion

إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ

وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ

and don’t say anything about God but the truth. Indeed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary is a Messenger of God And His word given to Mary and a spirit from Him

إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْراً لَّكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ

So believe in Allah and His Messenger and don’t say three Desist this will be better for you Verily Allah is one God

سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً

Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son . His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as Defender. (Qur’an 4:171)

The Qur’an also says

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 5:72.



لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِن لَّمْ
يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the third of three ; when there is no God save the One God . If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve .
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