I dont think christians and muslims worship the same God

[PRISONERofJOY12]

and please read all*

Long before Muhammad was born, Arabic Christians already were referring to God as Allah--- and millions continue do so today. The Allah of Islam, however, is definitely not the God of the bible. For while Muslims passionately defend the unity of God they patently deny His triunity. Thus, they recoil at the notion of God as Father, reject the unique deity of Jesus Christ the son, and renounce the divine identity of the Holy Spirit.
First, while the master taught his disciples to pray " Our Father in heaven," devotees of Muhammad find the very notion offensive. To their way of thinking calling God, " Father " and Jesus Christ, " Son" suggests sexual pocreation. Accordiing to the Qur' an, "it is not befitting to ( the majesty of ) Allah that He should beget a son" ( Sura 19:25 ), Allah " begetteth not, nor is begotten" ( Sura 112:3 ). The bible however does not use the term "begotten" with respect to the Father and the Son in the sense of sexual reproduction but rather in the sense of special relationship. Thus, when the apostle John speaks of Jesus as " the only begotten of the Father" ( John 1:14 NKJV, emphasis added), he is underscoring the unique deity of Christ. Likewise, when the Apostle Paul refers to Jesus as "firstborn over all creation" (Colossians 1:15 ) he is emphasizing Christ's of all things ( Colossians 1:16-19 ). Christians are sons of God through adoption; Jesus is God the son from all eternity. Furthermore, Muslims dogmatically denounce the Christian declaration of Christ's unique deity as the unforgivable sin of shirk. as the Qur' an puts it, "God forgiveth no the sin of joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this" ( Sura 4:116). While Muslims readily affirm the sinlessness of Christ, they adamantly dney His sacrifice upon the cross and subsequent resurrection. in doing so, they deny the singular historic fact which demonstrates that Jesus does not stand in a long line of peers from Abraham to Muhammad, but is God in human flesh. The Qur'anic phrase," Allah raised him up" (Sura 4:158 ) is taken to mean that Jesus was supernaturally raptured rather than resurrected from the dead. in Islamic lore, God made someone look like Jesus, and this look-a-like was crucified in his place. In recent years, the myth that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus has been popularized in Muslim circles by a late medieval invention titled The Gospel of Barnabas. Against the weight of history and evidence the Qur' an exudes, "they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them"( Sura 4:157).
Finally, in addition to rejecting the divinity of Jesus, Islam also renounces the divine identity of the Holy Spirit. Far from being the third person of the Triune God who inspired the text of the Bible, Islam teaches that the HOly Spirit is the archangel Gabriel who dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad over a period of twenty-three years. Ironically, while the HOly Spirit who dictated the Qur'an is said to be the archangel Gabriel, Islam identifies the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus in John 14 as Muhammad. The Bible, however, roundly rejects such corruptions and misrepresentation. Biblically the Holy Spirit is neither an angel nor a mere mortal; rather he is the very God who redeems us from our sins and will one day resurrect us to life eternal ( Acts 5:3-4; Romans 8:11).

1 John 2:23
"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."


Thank you agian for listening to me... Merry Christmas and happy New Years..

[akulion]

salam alaikum
well would it surprise you to know that Allah the word actually means "The God" in Arabic )denoting uniqueness and oneness) So i would not be surprised at all if people were calling God as Allah before Mohameed(sa)

Another thing - Islam began with Adam (as) not with Mohammed (sa)

Infact you will find a clear invitation in the Quran to Christians - That if indeed what you say is true then let us pray the same as Abraham used to pray and indeed Abraham used to pray none except GOD

abraham never once mentioned any sons daughters or anything. So why cant you worship same as Abraham if indeed you are truthful?

And to be honest and no offence to you (honestly) I can NEVER worship something that goes to the toilet and is the size of a germ in this universe

the universe is HUGe and humans are like little microscopic beings in the universe.

So dont think little of God - God is greatest!

Allah hu Akbar!

[azim]

Peace.

I think you're right in some respect, we don't worship the same God since Christians in essence, worship Christ as well as the Holy spirit.

Yet I think, that when you cry out to the Lord, in your darkest moments. You cry out to "the father" as you might call him. Not Jesus, not the Holy Spirit. You call to a God with NO PARTNERS. At those times, if you do have them, it is then that we worship the same God.

PS: I'm sure everyone on the board enjoys listening to people of other religions, especially Christians, whom Allah tells us are the 'closest to us'. So please stay on the forum and please keep the discussions going and God willing, it will stay civil and noble.

Peace.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

well yes we pray in the Father and then we end in Jesus name we pray Amen... so we don't worship the same...

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[Muhammad]

Greetings,

[2.135] And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists.
[2.136] Say: We believe in Allah and (in) that which had been revealed to us, and (in) that which was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and (in) that which was given to Musa and Isa, and (in) that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
[2.137] If then they believe as you believe in Him, they are indeed on the right course, and if they turn back, then they are only in great opposition, so Allah will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.
[2.138] (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve.
[2.139] Say: Do you dispute with us about Allah, and He is our Lord and your Lord, and we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds, and we are sincere to Him.
[2.140] Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was mentioned in the Bible and the Torah:

[7.157] Those who follow the Apostle-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.


The Qur'an is similar to the Bible in many ways, since it mentions stories of the previous prophets and has some similar passages to those of other scriptures, and this shows that it was sent by the same God:

[3.3] He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.

[5.48] And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;

6:105 Thus do We display Our revelations that they may say (unto thee, Muhammad): "Thou hast studied," and that We may make (it) clear for people who have knowledge.

First, while the master taught his disciples to pray " Our Father in heaven," devotees of Muhammad find the very notion offensive. To their way of thinking calling God, " Father " and Jesus Christ, " Son" suggests sexual pocreation. Accordiing to the Qur' an, "it is not befitting to ( the majesty of ) Allah that He should beget a son" ( Sura 19:25 ), Allah " begetteth not, nor is begotten" ( Sura 112:3 ). The bible however does not use the term "begotten" with respect to the Father and the Son in the sense of sexual reproduction but rather in the sense of special relationship.

Please bring your evidence, either from the bible or Christian teachings, where this definition of 'begotten' is affirmed and explained like you have said.

Furthermore, Muslims dogmatically denounce the Christian declaration of Christ's unique deity as the unforgivable sin of shirk. as the Qur' an puts it, "God forgiveth no the sin of joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this" ( Sura 4:116).

Jesus never claimed divinity for himself, as the following link explains:
Comparative Religion

While Muslims readily affirm the sinlessness of Christ, they adamantly dney His sacrifice upon the cross and subsequent resurrection.

Please see the thread entitled: The Paradox Of The Resurrection

in doing so, they deny the singular historic fact which demonstrates that Jesus does not stand in a long line of peers from Abraham to Muhammad, but is God in human flesh.

Islam teaches that Jesus was a Prophet and therefore we believe that he does stand in the line of descendents between Abraham and Muhammad, peace be upon them. Your point doesn't seem to mean much except regurgigating Islamic beliefs, although in a rather strange way.

Ironically, while the HOly Spirit who dictated the Qur'an is said to be the archangel Gabriel, Islam identifies the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus in John 14 as Muhammad.

No, I don't think it does. Where is your evidence for this claim?

The Bible, however, roundly rejects such corruptions and misrepresentation. Biblically the Holy Spirit is neither an angel nor a mere mortal; rather he is the very God who redeems us from our sins and will one day resurrect us to life eternal ( Acts 5:3-4; Romans 8:11).

1 John 2:23
"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

[2.97] Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.
[2.98] Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.

[3.79] It is not meet for a mortal that Allah should give him the Book and the wisdom and prophethood, then he should say to men: Be my servants rather than Allah's; but rather (he would say): Be worshippers of the Lord because of your teaching the Book and your reading (it yourselves).
[3.80] And neither would he enjoin you that you should take the angels and the prophets for lords; what! would he enjoin you with unbelief after you are Muslims?

Peace.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Matthew 26:62-64
Caiaphas, the high priest said to Jesus, " Tell us if you are the Christ, the son of God". Jesus replied, " Yes. It is as you say. But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty one and coming on the clouds of heaven.
John 1:1 & 14 tells us,"In the beginning was the God , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have see His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." Jesus is God!

[Umm Yoosuf]

Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. Matthew 26:62-64
Caiaphas, the high priest said to Jesus, " Tell us if you are the Christ, the son of God". Jesus replied, " Yes. It is as you say. But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty one and coming on the clouds of heaven.
John 1:1 & 14 tells us,"In the beginning was the God , and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have see His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." Jesus is God!

I don't understand...Do you believe Jesus was God? Son of God???? God -man? Man-God?:confused:

Are you saying that Jesus is co-equal with the Father, for Jesus said: “...the Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28).

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Dr. Zakir Naik comments on your claim as follows:

Jesus Christ (pbuh) never claimed Divinity

A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary. The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):


(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]
(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]
(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]
(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]
(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]



Jesus Refuted even the Remotest Suggestion of his Divinity:

Consider the following incident mentioned in the Bible:

"And behold, one came and said unto him, ‘Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?’
And he said unto him, ‘Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.’ "
[The Bible, Mathew 19:16-17]


Jesus (pbuh) did not say that to have the eternal life of paradise, man should believe in him as Almighty God or worship him as God, or believe that Jesus (pbuh) would die for his sins. On the contrary he said that the path to salvation was through keeping the commandments. It is indeed striking to note the difference between the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) and the Christian dogma of salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh).

God Sent Jesus' (pbuh)

The Bible mentions the prophetic nature of Jesus (pbuh) mission in the following verses:
(i)
"… and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me."
[The Bible, John 14:24]

(ii)
"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent."
[The Bible, John 17:3]

The First Commandment is that God is One

The Bible does not support the Christian belief in trinity at all. One of the scribes once asked Jesus (pbuh) as to which was the first commandment of all, to which Jesus (pbuh) merely repeated what Moses (pbuh) had said earlier:

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adonai Ikhad."
This is a Hebrew quotation, which means:
"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord."
[The Bible, Mark 12:29]

It is striking that the basic teachings of the Church such as Trinity and vicarious atonement find no mention in the Bible. In fact, various verses of the Bible point to Jesus’ (pbuh) actual mission, which was to fulfill the law revealed to Prophet Moses (pbuh). Indeed Jesus (pbuh) rejected any suggestions that attributed divinity to him, and explained his miracles as the power of the One True God.
Jesus (pbuh) thus reiterated the message of monotheism that was given by all earlier prophets of Almighty God.

NOTE: All quotations of the Bible are taken from the King James Version.

Peace.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

this is the perpose of Jesus Christ... which was the son of God because His body was made by God.. then the person who was in Him... was God.... now by you saying God couldn't do that your telling people that God can't do it... which you can't tell God what He can or cannot do.. whose words came first Christian words came first.. whose came hundreds of years after everyone else was dead ( or should I say went to Heaven )? the Qur'an...

Hebrews 10:4
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All

4because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

this is the perpose of Jesus Christ... which was the son of God because His body was made by God.. then the person who was in Him... was God.... now by you saying God couldn't do that your telling people that God can't do it... which you can't tell God what He can or cannot do

I did not say God cannot do anything, rather I am disproving your claim as to what God allegedly did.

In this post of yours, you said:

and in the new testiment: 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son.

firstborn son. a figure of speech indicating isreal's special relationship with God ( see jer 31:9; Hos 11:1)

If "firstborn son" is a figure of speech here, how do you know that it is not a figure of speech with regards to Jesus?



According to the Bible, God seems to have many sons:

"....Adam, which was the SON OF GOD."

Luke 3:38

"That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair..."
"And when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them...."

Genesis 6:2&4

"...for I (God) and a FATHER to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

Jeremiah 31:9

"...the Lord hath said unto me, (David) Thou art MY SON: this day have I BEGOTTEN thee."

Psalms 2:7

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD."

Romans 8:14

In the language of the Jew, every righteous person who followed the Will and Plan of God, was a son of God. Hence it was a metaphorical descriptive term, commonly used among the Jews.

Furthermore, the Bible also uses the word 'son' to mean descendent: It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter 1 verse 1
"Jesus Christ, the son of David,....".
[Mathew 1:1]

Gospel of Luke Chapter 3, verse 23

"And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, ....."
[Luke 3:23]
So did Jesus have two fathers?The explanation of the phrase that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of David (pbuh), is that Jesus (pbuh) was a descendant of David (pbuh). ‘Son’, here means a descendant.



Yusuf Estes, a former Christian (whose radio commentary you can tune into via the main islamicboard page), comments on this issue as follows:

Bible Does Not Claim Jesus Claimed to Be Son of God

It is a fact that the words “son of God” are not found on the lips of Jesus anywhere in the first three Gospel accounts, he was always calling himself the Son of Man. And it is a curious form of reasoning that I have seen so often that it is established from Bible that he claimed to be God because - look how the Jews reacted. They will say for example he said such and such and the Jews said he is blaspheming, he claimed to be God and they tried to stone him. So they argue that he must have been claiming to be God because look ! - the Jews tried to kill him. They said that’s what he was claiming. But the interesting thing is that all the evidence is then built on the fact that a person is saying: I believed that Jesus was the son of God because the Jews who killed him said that’s what he used to say ! His enemies used to say that, so he must have said it, this is what it amounts to. In the other hand we have the words of Jesus saying he would keep the law, the law of Moses and we have the statement in the Bible, why did the Jews kill him ? Because he broke the law of Moses. Obviously the Jews misunderstood him, if he promised he would keep the law, but they killed him because he broke the law, they must have misunderstood him, or lied about him.

And lastly, the Qur'an mentions:


[6.100] And they make the jinn associates with Allah, while He created them, and they falsely attribute to Him sons and daughters without knowledge; glory be to Him, and highly exalted is He above what they ascribe (to Him).
[6.101] Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

whose words came first Christian words came first.. whose came hundreds of years after everyone else was dead ( or should I say went to Heaven )? the Qur'an...

Indeed, the Bible came before the Qur'an. Yet why don't we ask: whose words have remained unchanged since their revelation? Why is it that you have so many versions and alterations, whereas the Qur'an has none? The Qur'an has been described by Allaah, in verse [5:48] as 'Muhayminan'; the commentary of which (by the scholar Ibn Katheer) follows:

(and Muhayminan over it) means entrusted over it, according to Sufyan Ath-Thawri who narrated it from Abu Ishaq from At-Tamimi from Ibn `Abbas. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "Muhaymin is, `the Trustworthy'. Allah says that the Qur'an is trustworthy over every Divine Book that preceded it.'' This was reported from `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Mujahid, Muhammad bin Ka`b, `Atiyyah, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, `Ata' Al-Khurasani, As-Suddi and Ibn Zayd. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Al-Walibi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `Witness'. Mujahid, Qatadah and As-Suddi said the same. Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas said that Muhayminan means, `dominant over the previous Scriptures'. These meanings are similar, as the word Muhaymin includes them all. Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures. Allah promised that He will protect the Qur'an and swore by His Most Honorable Self,

[إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَـفِظُونَ ]

(Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).)

You may wish to re-read what was recently posted in this post and the part towards the ending of this one.

Hebrews 10:4
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
...
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, O God.' "[a] 8First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

It is difficult to distinguish your biblical quotes from your own commentary here, thus I would like to point out that none of this is saying anything about Jesus claiming to be the son of God. From the above quotes, Jesus has come to do whose will? God's? The Qur'an clarifies:
[3.49] And (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
[3.50] And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden t you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
[3.51] Surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

So if somebody is a mass murderer in our current age, is he still "perfect"?

Peace.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

human beings are not perfect...God knows that.. salvation is a gift and not to be earned... I think your beliefs is kind of close to ours but not exactly close...

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

human beings are not perfect...God knows that.. salvation is a gift and not to be earned... I think your beliefs is kind of close to ours but not exactly close...

That's interesting, because if human beings are not perfect, why do they gain the "gift" of salvation? If everyone were to be forgiven and saved, why would God intend to create humans as imperfect in the first place?

Indeed our beliefs are quite close, but there are some major differences.

Peace.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Greetings,



That's interesting, because if human beings are not perfect, why do they gain the "gift" of salvation? If everyone were to be forgiven and saved, why would God intend to create humans as imperfect in the first place?

Indeed our beliefs are quite close, but there are some major differences.

Peace.

God wouldn't make us robots would he? and because of the blood of Jesus God overlooks our sins...
Psalm 103:12
12 as far as the east is from the west,
so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

God wouldn't make us robots would he? and because of the blood of Jesus God overlooks our sins...

What difference would it make if God made us perfect (not necessarily robots, but more like angels), if he has already overlooked our future sins?

The whole point of giving us a choice between right and wrong is so that God tests each of us, on an individual level, whether we strive to worship Him and obey His commands (leading to our success), or we neglect His orders (and become losers and sinners - in which case we can seek forgiveness and become good again).
Those who do more good than bad will be granted Paradise, and those who have more bad shall enter Hell.

Once you start saying things like the blood of Jesus has vouched for us all, this whole test system breaks down and doesn't make sense anymore, because it denies the whole purpose.

so far has he removed our transgressions from us.

Why is there crime and transgression today then?

Peace.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Greetings,


What difference would it make if God made us perfect (not necessarily robots, but more like angels), if he has already overlooked our future sins?

The whole point of giving us a choice between right and wrong is so that God tests each of us, on an individual level, whether we strive to worship Him and obey His commands (leading to our success), or we neglect His orders (and become losers and sinners - in which case we can seek forgiveness and become good again).
Those who do more good than bad will be granted Paradise, and those who have more bad shall enter Hell.

Once you start saying things like the blood of Jesus has vouched for us all, this whole test system breaks down and doesn't make sense anymore, because it denies the whole purpose.


Why is there crime and transgression today then?

Peace.

I agree with you on most of it.. but I don't agree about doing more good than bad.. so you are saying that if a man who does not believe in a God and still does good can still get into heaven? while a man who does not do good cannot get into heaven?


Why is there crime and transgression today then?

it means after he has come to rescue us from this world everything will end there will be no sinning everyone will live... those who believe the good news.. :peace:

[Abu Omar]

:sl:

Sorry haven't read through the thread, but this kind of arguments are silly. First of all, those who say that Allaah (swt) isn't the god of the Christians and Jews have yet to come with the correct word for God in Arabic. Also, the Jews od Medinah, who had a tremendous hatred for the Prophet (saaws) and Islam, never accused Muslims for worshipping another god than their own.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I agree with you on most of it.. but I don't agree about doing more good than bad.. so you are saying that if a man who does not believe in a God and still does good can still get into heaven? while a man who does not do good cannot get into heaven?

Of course, the good will only be accepted if the person is a believer.

[4.124] And whoever does good deeds whether male or female and he (or she) is a believer-- these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with a jot unjustly.

[40.40]Whoever does an evil, he shall not be recompensed (with aught) but the like of it, and whoever does good, whether male or female, and he is a believer, these shall enter the garden, in which they shall be given sustenance without measure.

[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

it means after he has come to rescue us from this world everything will end there will be no sinning everyone will live... those who believe the good news.. :peace:

Oh I see, so you meant so far he will remove our transgressions from us. In Islam, we also believe in a time when Jesus will descend from heaven, and this is because he did not die in the first place. We believe that he was not crucified but taken into heaven while some of his disciples watched on, and thus he shall return to die a human death when God decrees it.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

His stay on earth will be a time of goodness and ease, when everyone will believe in God and money will flourish. We do not believe this is due to Jesus' power, but rather God's Will. Jesus is only a Prophet of God, just like Moses, Adam and Muhammad, peace be upon them all.

Peace.

[SunniMuslimah]

Well, that's right we dont worship Jesus or the Holy Spirit, we worship Allah. If the father in Christianity cant be worshipped except thru the Trinity so we cant say that we worship the same god.

But if we considered the Father in Christianity is Allah in Islam and as a separate god ffrom the trinity, we can say that we worship that same God as the Catholic church in the Vatican anounnced many years ago.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Greetings,


Of course, the good will only be accepted if the person is a believer.

so how many good deeds do you have to do in order to be saved? I am quite sure no one can tally them up... I like the idea that being a good person will work along... but what freedom is that.. I understand... thier does come an extent of "freedom" like the people on mtv.. they take it so far.. omgosh I don't think I have seen a R rated movie that showed a girls deal since I have became a christian..

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

so how many good deeds do you have to do in order to be saved? I am quite sure no one can tally them up...

You have to do as many as you can; then on the Day of Resurrection, all of man's deeds shall be weighed:

21:47 We shall set up scales of justice for the Day of Judgment, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least, and if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it (to account): and enough are We to take account.

7:8 The balance that day will be true (to nicety): those whose scale (of good) will be heavy, will prosper:
7:9 Those whose scale will be light, will be their souls in perdition, for that they wrongfully treated Our signs.

Peace.

[azim]

I think maybe here, we're both at different ends of the same scale.

Muslims dont believe good deeds get a person into heaven. The mercy of Allah gets a person into heaven. How do we get this mercy? By doing good deeds, by deserving Allahs mercy.

Christians, correct me if I'm wrong, belief heaven can only be obtained through God's mercy. And to obtain God's mercy, one must belief Jesus died as a sacrifice for mankinds wrong doings.

The only variable between Muslims and Christians here is the doing of Good deeds.

Christiannity
Belief in Jesus = Gods mercy.
Gods mercy = Heaven

Islam
Belief in Allah + Good Deeds = Allahs Mercy
Allahs mercy = Heaven

Believe it or not, I think you (Prisoner of Joy) actually are working from the Islamic equation.

Why are you on this board? I think it's because you love God (and Jesus), and you want others to know about the wonderful God you know.

It is because you love God, that you try and do these good deeds of spreading the message of Christiannity.

Muslims do the same thing. We call it 'dawah' (means invitation, inviting to Allah). I believe Christians call it 'witness' isnt it?

If you abided by the first formula, why would you care about telling us about Christiannity?

PS: If you feel my formulas wrong, please feel free to correct it. If you think I'm being too mathamatical, ignore it. :D

[PRISONERofJOY12]

I think maybe here, we're both at different ends of the same scale.

Muslims dont believe good deeds get a person into heaven. The mercy of Allah gets a person into heaven. How do we get this mercy? By doing good deeds, by deserving Allahs mercy.

Christians, correct me if I'm wrong, belief heaven can only be obtained through God's mercy. And to obtain God's mercy, one must belief Jesus died as a sacrifice for mankinds wrong doings.

The only variable between Muslims and Christians here is the doing of Good deeds.

Christiannity
Belief in Jesus = Gods mercy.
Gods mercy = Heaven

Islam
Belief in Allah + Good Deeds = Allahs Mercy
Allahs mercy = Heaven

Believe it or not, I think you (Prisoner of Joy) actually are working from the Islamic equation.

Why are you on this board? I think it's because you love God (and Jesus), and you want others to know about the wonderful God you know.

It is because you love God, that you try and do these good deeds of spreading the message of Christiannity.

Muslims do the same thing. We call it 'dawah' (means invitation, inviting to Allah). I believe Christians call it 'witness' isnt it?

If you abided by the first formula, why would you care about telling us about Christiannity?

PS: If you feel my formulas wrong, please feel free to correct it. If you think I'm being too mathamatical, ignore it. :D

Have I believed in Jesus Christ as the substitute for my sins and received him as my personal Savior?

Are you trusting feelings, rather than God's Word, for assurance of salvation?

Are you basing your salvation on what you do for God, instead of what God has done for you?


We know that we have eternal life because God says we do.
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life." (1 John 5:13).


We know that we have eternal life because changes have taken place in our lives since we became a Christian.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17).


We know that we have eternal life because we want to share Christ with others.

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile." (Romans 1:16).



We know that we have eternal life because we want to live godly lives.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say no to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in the present age..." (Titus 2:11-12).

[Sabi]

With regards to the opening statement of this thread, as someon who sits on the bridge, I can see that Christians do not know that The Name that they are supposed to Hallow is Allah, and instead of Allah they only worship the Ruhullah as our Spiritual Father in Heaven. As for Muslims, a lot of them have generally forgotten a lot about the Ruhullah and it is no longer important to their lives.

[catmando]

From the Atheist's point of view, Christianity Islam and Judaism worship the same male skygod. They may have different attributes and different actions, but they are the same.

Otherwise there are THREE "creators" of the Universe. That cannot be.

[Sabi]

But that's the point Catmando, the "Male Skygod" that you refer to is not what Muslims worship. That which could be described as the "Male Skygod" is the Ruhullah that the Christians worship (I do not know enough about Judaism to make a comment), while in islamic thought Ruhullah only radiates from Allah (SWT), and it is not God, but more like a creation. Muslims believe that Nothing is like the Lah (SWT) and that there is no god but the Lah (SWT), which is neither sired nor sire. Al-Lah (SWT) is an IT, not a he. But you are right, if you mean that Allah (SWT) permeates and encompasses all creations' skies.

[catmando]

Whatever you say, Sabi. I'm certainly not going to argue Theology with you. I have neither the knowledge nor the urge to study a subject I believe has no relevance to Man's existence on this earth.

I WILL say, though, that Islam, Christianity and Judaism need to find ways to live together without killing each other. Christianity and Judaism have submitted their doctrines to the rule of Secular Law, and because they have, common laws have been devised to satisfy all the people. Islam so far has not done those things. Until the Mullahs submit to secular government there will be no peace on this planet.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace Catmando, and I have to agree with your sentiments despite our differences

When I walk down town I see a part of God’s creation, I see people who could be Christian, atheist, Muslims, Hindu and they have the freedom to any number of beliefs from the same God.

As such we are all related through the same God; and this should give each one of us a duty of care towards each other.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith friendship

Eric

[Sabi]

Salaam Eric, your sentiments are beautiful, and the sign of a true believer.

Christianity and Judaism have submitted their doctrines to the rule of Secular Law, and because they have, common laws have been devised to satisfy all the people. Islam so far has not done those things.

Alhamdulilah for that! And may that day never come inshaAllah.

Until the Mullahs submit to secular government there will be no peace on this planet.

Well lets hope and pray that the adherants to the secularist religion currently dominating the world can change their stance on this totalitarian ultimatum otherwise there will be a lot more innocent blood of the believers to be shed by them on their crusade still.

AllahuAkbar!

Don't be afraid, catmando, it is just the language of a different cultural paradigm from your own. Dialogue will improve when we learn how each paradigm uses the same language in different ways.:)

[Isa Abdullah]

and please read all*

Long before Muhammad was born, Arabic Christians already were referring to God as Allah--- and millions continue do so today. The Allah of Islam, however, is definitely not the God of the bible. For while Muslims passionately defend the unity of God they patently deny His triunity. Thus, they recoil at the notion of God as Father, reject the unique deity of Jesus Christ the son, and renounce the divine identity of the Holy Spirit.
First, while the master taught his disciples to pray " Our Father in heaven," devotees of Muhammad find the very notion offensive. To their way of thinking calling God, " Father " and Jesus Christ, " Son" suggests sexual pocreation. Accordiing to the Qur' an, "it is not befitting to ( the majesty of ) Allah that He should beget a son" ( Sura 19:25 ), Allah " begetteth not, nor is begotten" ( Sura 112:3 ). The bible however does not use the term "begotten" with respect to the Father and the Son in the sense of sexual reproduction but rather in the sense of special relationship. Thus, when the apostle John speaks of Jesus as " the only begotten of the Father" ( John 1:14 NKJV, emphasis added), he is underscoring the unique deity of Christ. Likewise, when the Apostle Paul refers to Jesus as "firstborn over all creation" (Colossians 1:15 ) he is emphasizing Christ's of all things ( Colossians 1:16-19 ). Christians are sons of God through adoption; Jesus is God the son from all eternity. Furthermore, Muslims dogmatically denounce the Christian declaration of Christ's unique deity as the unforgivable sin of shirk. as the Qur' an puts it, "God forgiveth no the sin of joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this" ( Sura 4:116). While Muslims readily affirm the sinlessness of Christ, they adamantly dney His sacrifice upon the cross and subsequent resurrection. in doing so, they deny the singular historic fact which demonstrates that Jesus does not stand in a long line of peers from Abraham to Muhammad, but is God in human flesh. The Qur'anic phrase," Allah raised him up" (Sura 4:158 ) is taken to mean that Jesus was supernaturally raptured rather than resurrected from the dead. in Islamic lore, God made someone look like Jesus, and this look-a-like was crucified in his place. In recent years, the myth that Judas was crucified in place of Jesus has been popularized in Muslim circles by a late medieval invention titled The Gospel of Barnabas. Against the weight of history and evidence the Qur' an exudes, "they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them"( Sura 4:157).
Finally, in addition to rejecting the divinity of Jesus, Islam also renounces the divine identity of the Holy Spirit. Far from being the third person of the Triune God who inspired the text of the Bible, Islam teaches that the HOly Spirit is the archangel Gabriel who dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad over a period of twenty-three years. Ironically, while the HOly Spirit who dictated the Qur'an is said to be the archangel Gabriel, Islam identifies the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus in John 14 as Muhammad. The Bible, however, roundly rejects such corruptions and misrepresentation. Biblically the Holy Spirit is neither an angel nor a mere mortal; rather he is the very God who redeems us from our sins and will one day resurrect us to life eternal ( Acts 5:3-4; Romans 8:11).

1 John 2:23
"No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."


Thank you agian for listening to me... Merry Christmas and happy New Years..

Greetings,

Firstly, there is only one God. Whether or not you want to divide him into three different pieces and try to logically prove that everyone else has it wrong is sef-delusion. The God of the Worlds is indivisible and sublime. Above all that He created. The Archangel Gabriel indeed is the Holy Spirit, the one entrusted with delivering the message to the Prophets.

If you are promoting the fact that The Holy Spirit is, just that a spirit. Your Bible speaks of it prior to Jesus' (as) birth.

As for the word begotten, it is used in the KJV and the NKJV; however, in the RSV it is "only son". Why the change? Christians have been differentiating Jesus (as) by menetioning he was the begotten son. Why lose the word? Why because it is not in the original manuscripts.

Regarding the Qur'an, and the Gospel of Barnabas, Muslims follow the Qur'an not the Gospel of Barnabas. The Qur'an only says it was made apparent to them. That is the stance and anything added to it is not from Allaah ta ala. It is not of any importance who was crucified, the point is it wasn't Jesus (as). Which is the foundation of Christendom. Much of the World believes he was, but it was a fallacy.

The Prophets of God are sinless. They do not fornicate, murder, and refrain from any other diabolical acts. They are models for humanity. Allaah ta ala chose them because of their sincere and upright character.

Lastly, Muslims do not follow Paul, we follow Muhammad, Jesus and all the prophets who preceded them. I am not interested in what Paul had to say about Him. I am seeking guidance from the messenger whom God sent.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace to you Isa Abdullah;

Regardless of who we say we follow, whether it be Hindu, Jew, Islam, Christianity or any other faith, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

[AvarAllahNoor]

I wass under the impression there was only one God, so what is this talk of Christians not believing in that God?

[Umar001]

La Ilaha Ill Allah, now lets focus on the Ilaha.

Anything can be taken as G-d, so although there is only one true G-d there are things that are taken AS G-d

Such as desire as G-d tells us:

SHAKIR: Have you seen him who takes his low desires for his god? Will you then be a protector over him?

25:43.

[Isa Abdullah]

Greetings and peace to you Isa Abdullah;

Regardless of who we say we follow, whether it be Hindu, Jew, Islam, Christianity or any other faith, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

Peace Eric,

Nice post. It is Christians like you that the Qur'an speaks about. :)

"...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).

[primitivefuture]

Well, it depends on whether you have "extra gods." Islam and Judaism are purely monotheistic. Some Buddhist sects dont even have a god. Hindus are polytheists, while Christians worship Christ as well.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace primitivefuture:

Well, it depends on whether you have "extra gods." Islam and Judaism are purely monotheistic. Some Buddhist sects dont even have a god. Hindus are polytheists, while Christians worship Christ as well.

I think it is extremely difficult to focus on the meaning of one God, and in a way you have highlighted the problem from man’s perception.

This analogy sounds a bit flippant but I can’t think of any other way of trying to explain my perception of one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

When we pray do our prayers end up in some kind of giant prayer sorting office in the sky? The Hindu angels sort out the Hindu prayers, the Jewish angels sort out the Jewish prayers, and other angels compartmentalise the prayers of all other faiths?

Dose the boss angel look through and say all these prayers are addressed to the wrong guy, we will send them to the recycle bin.

Or do all prayers end up in one place, they reach God who knows the thoughts and intentions of all people of all faiths, because all our prayers are directed to the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest truth

Eric

[Umar001]

Greetings and peace primitivefuture:


I think it is extremely difficult to focus on the meaning of one God, and in a way you have highlighted the problem from man’s perception.

This analogy sounds a bit flippant but I can’t think of any other way of trying to explain my perception of one God the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

When we pray do our prayers end up in some kind of giant prayer sorting office in the sky? The Hindu angels sort out the Hindu prayers, the Jewish angels sort out the Jewish prayers, and other angels compartmentalise the prayers of all other faiths?

Dose the boss angel look through and say all these prayers are addressed to the wrong guy, we will send them to the recycle bin.

Or do all prayers end up in one place, they reach God who knows the thoughts and intentions of all people of all faiths, because all our prayers are directed to the creator of all that is seen and unseen.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest truth

Eric

Man, I am glad I have to honour of adressing ya Eric, I remember a while back when I used to pop in here and you were one of the people I remembered, I actually have to admit that I do occasionaly use your like 'In the spirit of searching for a greatest truth' or something similar :giggling:

Anyhow sir, I hope you dont mind me coming in here.

But I noticed and I think most people will agree about what you said about Prayer, or Supplication Du'a to muslims. It does go To the creator yes.

But when we talk of worship thats slightly different, worship can be eccesive love to a cretion hence someone is being worshipped instead of G-d.

I hope I am making sense.
And I hope I have not misunderstood yall

peaceeee 'In the spirit of searching for a greatest truth'

:thankyou:

[Sabi]

hence someone is being worshipped instead of G-d.

Why do you write God in the same way as an Hassidic Jew?:? I did not know that Muslims Hallow the Name more than Sabi`een do.

The reason this thread exists I think is because to Christians, Theos is clearly begetter and begotten, while in Tawheed, TonTheon is neither begetter nor begotten.

However, The Ruhulah is Begetter and Begotten, but it is not Allah. So clearly Christians pray to Ruhullah (Theos) and do not know Allah (TonTheon).

Allah is the name of al-Dhat al-Qudsiyya (Ruhullah), so we can say that in the beginning there was al-Dhat al-Qudsiyya and its name (Allah). In Hebrew they say that in the beginning was HaQodesh and its name (HaShem). In Christianity they say that in the beginning there was Theos and its name (TonTheon).

So we all believe in the same things, but different emphasis is placed upon name vs essence in the different branches of Noah's religion.

But we must not confound the two. The Name does not have a son, while The Essence is certainly in each of us Inshallah.

:sl:

(at the very least, this is the sabi perspective)

[glo]

salam alaikum
well would it surprise you to know that Allah the word actually means "The God" in Arabic )denoting uniqueness and oneness) So i would not be surprised at all if people were calling God as Allah before Mohameed(sa)


So dont think little of God - God is greatest!

The name of Allah was around before the Arab tribes abandoned polytheism and became monotheistic. I am surprised that it means 'one God', when at that time he was not considered to be the 'one (and only) God'.
As I understand it, prior to the arrival of Islam the Arab tribes had many gods - the main one of which was called al-Lah.
Those Arabs who converted to Christianity held onto that name.


peace.

[Sabi]

But Glo, Altars to "The Unknown God" were around in Pagan Greece even though they worshipped many other Gods, so if St. Paul identified that god as the one true God, then can't Allah be The Name in Arabic? GOD of gods.

[glo]

[QUOTE=Sabi;338165]

But Glo, Altars to "The Unknown God" were around in Pagan Greece even though they worshipped many other Gods, so if St. Paul identified that god as the one true God

I'm not sure what you mean.
St. Paul identified 'the unknown' Greek pagan god as the 'one true God'?
Can I ask you why you think that?

then can't Allah be The Name in Arabic? GOD of gods.[/

I'm not denying that Allah is Arabic for 'The God'.
But when I read the post 'The God' seemed to read as 'the (one and only) God' ... which cannot be the case, if as that time al-Lah was not the one and only god, but one of many.

Whoever 'the unknown god', you are referring to, is, I read that title just as 'an unknown god', rather than 'the one and only' ...

Goodness, I am starting to confuse myself!
Feel free to ignore my ramblings ... ;D

Peace.

[Umar001]

Why do you write God in the same way as an Hassidic Jew?:?

Im not gonna begin to try adress the rest of your post boss, because I dont know how much effort you put in it, seems efortless but, to me it would take big effort to answer it :giggling: :giggling:

Anyhow, regarding the writing of G-d, it is because I have a friend who is Jews and I used to go to his forum from which I saw him use G-d and so followed him in order to not be kinda offensive.

Hope that clears things up


peaceeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Sabi]

[QUOTE=glo;338178]

Goodness, I am starting to confuse myself!

Erm... :) Yes. :?

Anyhow, regarding the writing of G-d, it is because I have a friend who is Jews and I used to go to his forum from which I saw him use G-d and so followed him in order to not be kinda offensive.

Cool!

[- Qatada -]

Hey glo.


Maybe this aayah (sign/verse) might be of some help:


029.065: And when they mount upon the ships they pray to Allah, making their faith pure for Him only, but when He bringeth them safe to land, behold! they ascribe partners (unto Him),


So the pagan arabs did know that there was only one God that they should worship. This showed up when they needed God the most, but when they felt safe - they associated partners with Allaah and believed that they would intercede on their behalf to God.

A really good example is of the uncle of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - his name was hamza (may Allaah be pleased with him), and the night before he became muslim, he was confused about whether he should stick to the ways of polytheism or the religion of his nephew Muhammad (peace be upon him) which was monotheism. Instead of praying to the idols, he stayed up all night praying to the one true God, and asking for guidance from God without any idols 'interceding' on his behalf. And alhamdulillah (praise be to Allaah) - the next morning he became muslim.


So that example does show that the arabs did actually believe in the one true God, but they felt that the idols interceded on their behalf to God - and that is a form of polytheism if you are worshipping the idol instead of directly worshipping God.


..and Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

[firdaw]

we total don't worship the same God.

[Halima]

I wass under the impression there was only one God, so what is this talk of Christians not believing in that God?

From what I have observed that occured many times, is that non-muslims wether it be christians, jews, or even catholics don't think we muslims worship the same God they do.

For some odd reason just becuase we name our god (Allah(swt) they are simply mistaken that it is a different God.

Allah(swt) is God's name in Arabic. Arabic is the language of Islam. The quran was revelated through Arabic.

Just like how Latin was mainly for the catholic faith. This language no more exists, however, it is still spoken by many people.

[Umar001]

Hey glo.


Maybe this aayah (sign/verse) might be of some help:


029.065: And when they mount upon the ships they pray to Allah, making their faith pure for Him only, but when He bringeth them safe to land, behold! they ascribe partners (unto Him),


So the pagan arabs did know that there was only one God that they should worship. This showed up when they needed God the most, but when they felt safe - they associated partners with Allaah and believed that they would intercede on their behalf to God.

A really good example is of the uncle of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) - his name was hamza (may Allaah be pleased with him), and the night before he became muslim, he was confused about whether he should stick to the ways of polytheism or the religion of his nephew Muhammad (peace be upon him) which was monotheism. Instead of praying to the idols, he stayed up all night praying to the one true God, and asking for guidance from God without any idols 'interceding' on his behalf. And alhamdulillah (praise be to Allaah) - the next morning he became muslim.


So that example does show that the arabs did actually believe in the one true God, but they felt that the idols interceded on their behalf to God - and that is a form of polytheism if you are worshipping the idol instead of directly worshipping God.


..and Allaah Almighty knows best.



Peace.

Yea this is so true peep:

Surah Yunus 10:31 YUSUFALI: Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? and who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say, "Allah". Say, "will ye not then show piety (to Him)?"

Surah Az-Zukhruf 43:87 YUSUFALI: If thou ask them, who created them, they will certainly say, Allah: How then are they deluded away (from the Truth)?

Surah Yoosuf 12:106 YUSUFALI: And most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him!

[Sabi]

Allah is the name of al-Dhat al-Qudsiyya (Ruhullah), so we can say that in the beginning there was al-Dhat al-Qudsiyya and its name (Allah). In Hebrew they say that in the beginning was HaQodesh and its name (HaShem). In Christianity they say that in the beginning there was Theos and its name (TonTheon).

The reason this thread exists, I think, is because to Christians, Theos is clearly begetter and begotten, while in Tawheed, TonTheon/HaShem/Allah is neither begetter nor begotten.

Whereas, The Ruhullah is Begetter and Begotten, it is not Allah. So clearly the Christian Theos that they pray to is Ruhullah, while they have stopped recognising the importance of TonThon/Allah/HaShem outside of the prayer where they say "Hallowed be Thy Name".

So we all believe in the same things, but different emphasis is placed upon name vs essence in the different branches of Noah's religion.

But we must not confound the two. The Name does not have a son, while The Essence is certainly in each of us Inshallah.

(at the very least, this is the sabi perspective)

Does this not settle the matter?

[Umar001]

Allah is the name of al-Dhat al-Qudsiyya (Ruhullah), so we can say that in the beginning there was al-Dhat al-Qudsiyya and its name (Allah). In Hebrew they say that in the beginning was HaQodesh and its name (HaShem). In Christianity they say that in the beginning there was Theos and its name (TonTheon).

The reason this thread exists, I think, is because to Christians, Theos is clearly begetter and begotten, while in Tawheed, TonTheon/HaShem/Allah is neither begetter nor begotten.

Whereas, The Ruhullah is Begetter and Begotten, it is not Allah. So clearly the Christian Theos that they pray to is Ruhullah, while they have stopped recognising the importance of TonThon/Allah/HaShem outside of the prayer where they say "Hallowed be Thy Name".

So we all believe in the same things, but different emphasis is placed upon name vs essence in the different branches of Noah's religion.

But we must not confound the two. The Name does not have a son, while The Essence is certainly in each of us Inshallah.

(at the very least, this is the sabi perspective)

Does this not settle the matter?

Im totally thrown off and confused by this whole TonTheos and so on, I honestly dont understand bro. Sorry if I am testin your patience.

[glo]

Hey glo.


Maybe this aayah (sign/verse) might be of some help:


029.065: And when they mount upon the ships they pray to Allah, making their faith pure for Him only, but when He bringeth them safe to land, behold! they ascribe partners (unto Him),


So the pagan arabs did know that there was only one God that they should worship. This showed up when they needed God the most, but when they felt safe - they associated partners with Allaah and believed that they would intercede on their behalf to God.


Peace.

Yes, that's what I read too.
ost of the time people worshipped various gods, amongst them three daughters of al-Lah ... but when the going got tought they turned towards al-Lah, who was considered the 'main god'.

Be patient with me, Fi_Sabilillah.
I am writing as I am learning, and my knoledge is very limited indeed.
And I'm afraid part of my learning will include questioning, doubting and quite possibly disagreeing. :rollseyes :?

Peace.:thankyou:

[AvarAllahNoor]

From what I have observed that occured many times, is that non-muslims wether it be christians, jews, or even catholics don't think we muslims worship the same God they do.

For some odd reason just becuase we name our god (Allah(swt) they are simply mistaken that it is a different God.

Allah(swt) is God's name in Arabic. Arabic is the language of Islam. The quran was revelated through Arabic.

Just like how Latin was mainly for the catholic faith. This language no more exists, however, it is still spoken by many people.

This makes sense, but to me that would be ignorance on their part. Call God by what name one desires but the destination is the same.

Although i don't believe that God can be acheived via the worship of idols, Images - This is where i draw the line.

[Sabi]

Im totally thrown off and confused by this whole TonTheos and so on, I honestly dont understand bro. Sorry if I am testin your patience.

Salaamu Aleikum brother,

Do no worry too much about it brother. The confusions in the religions come from using translations, hence Sabi`een only use the Greek Injeel, The Hebrew Tanakh and the Arabic Quran, etc. (but something I feel about you tells me that on some level you already know all this). Ton Theon (not Theos) is Allah, and Theos is Pneuma (i.e. Ruhullah). It is as simple as that. This is from the Injeel.

"In the beginning there was Logos and Logos was with TonTheon and Logos was Theos."

and elsewhere in the Injeel

"Theos is Pneuma" (Pneuma = Ruhullah).

Hence Pneuma (Ruhullah) & Tontheon (Allah) are different.

Hope this helps.

[Umar001]

I get it kinda but it don't really settle much, because the Christians believe as you have stated that Theos is the beggetter and begotten, whichc is no problem, but Christians also believe that Theos was begotten by TonTheon which both the Jews and Muslims disagree with since, I think we both agree that TonTheon=Hashem=Allah.

[Sabi]

I get it kinda but it don't really settle much, because the Christians believe as you have stated that Theos is the beggetter and begotten, which is no problem, but Christians also believe that Theos was begotten by TonTheon which both the Jews and Muslims disagree with since, I think we both agree that TonTheon=Hashem=Allah.

Exactly! Remember that TonTheon ISTAWA The Throne and that Heaven is The Throne while Theos is IN Heaven, and His Name (the name he gave) is Hallowed.

Shalom!

[Umar001]

Exactly! Remember that TonTheon ISTAWA The Throne and that Heaven is The Throne while Theos is IN Heaven, and His Name (the name he gave) is Hallowed.

Shalom!

Well He rose over the Throne, but I dont think Muslims believe the Throne is in heaven, maybe above the seven heavens, not in the heaven.

So 'our father who art in heaven' could be right or wrong i am not sure.

But if someone believes in a TonTheon that begets then it aint the same as the one who dont beget.

Maybe they believe i nthe same one but are mistaken with regards to his attribute.

[Sabi]

Well He rose over the Throne, but I dont think Muslims believe the Throne is in heaven, maybe above the seven heavens, not in the heaven.

According to prophet Isaiah (SAW) Heaven is the throne., so it is accurate to say that The throne is not in Heaven. If the Heavens is the throne, then it stands to reason that Tontheon (SWT) is high exaulted over and above the heavens.

So 'our father who art in heaven' could be right or wrong i am not sure.

Well `Isa (SAW) said this (in the context of Hailing the Ruhullah) so I think it is correct.

But if someone believes in a TonTheon that begets then it aint the same as the one who dont beget.

Maybe they believe in the same one but are mistaken with regards to his attribute.

Exactly. No clarification needed here at all. We are totally reading from the same page. You da man bro!

[M_Ahmed]

Salam.
I just want to clarify something. If one-third of the christian "GOD" is killed, is it not suicide. So why did God create people and gave them a choice, so they should choose what they want to do.
Also, as salvation is for all those people who accept modern christianity, which is mixed up with Saul and then the Romans. All types of justice are cancelled out. If a christian commits a crime, he/she gets away with it in the next life.
As for the divinity of prophet Jesus, it was something brought in by Saul, and rejected by the followers of Jesus, to this day there are still some christians who do not believe in Jesus as a part of "GOD". The idea was brought in to try and currupt the christians, but was later taken up as un updated religious system by the 4th century romans and the emporer Constantine.

[Sabi]

Yes Christianity as we know it was invented by the deified Roman Caesar Constantine.

No Saul of Tarsus did not invent Christianity nor the divinity of a human being, Saul is severely misunderstood. One would not give a book on the Human Genome to a middleschool science student, neither should Saul's writings be expected to be understood by anyone who has not already got a sound grounding in Tawheed, and Injeel.

The Ruhullah is inside all living things, when they die is that suicide? Not at all. The sadness is that the Chritians of Constantine do not realise that they have forgotten Tontheon, and only worship spirit.

[Woodrow]

Greetings and peace to you Isa Abdullah;

Regardless of who we say we follow, whether it be Hindu, Jew, Islam, Christianity or any other faith, all our prayers are heard by the same God.

In the spirit of seeking a greater interfaith understanding

Eric

Very good words. The more people that can adhere to them, the tighter the grasp of understanding and tolerance will become.

Peace be with you always.