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PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 03:37 AM
what does this passage mean?

thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' -- Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35


-Muhammad died unexpectedly in A.D. 632..
while Jesus rosed again...
-Muhammads had parents who died...
while Jesus had a parent.

Quranic passages (16:61; 40:55; 42:5, 30; 47:19; 48:1-2) we read that Muhammad was exhorted to seek forgiveness for his faults, that not a single living creature would be left on earth if God punished everyone for their wrongdoing...

In the Quran (2:253; 3:45-49; 4:158, 171; 5:49; 19:33; 89:22) it is noted that Jesus was called the Messiah, He was born of a virgin, He was among the righteous ones -- those nearest to God, He received strength given by the Holy Spirit; He could give sight to the blind, cure lepers, and raise the dead; He prophesied His own death and resurrection; He was called a Word from God and a Spirit from God; He is coming back with thousands of angels to judge the world. All these characterizations add up to a powerful picture of a Christ who was more than a prophe and -- on Quranic terms alone -- superior to Muhammad
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-27-2005, 11:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
what does this passage mean?

thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' -- Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35
It means exactly what it says.

-Muhammad died unexpectedly in A.D. 632..
while Jesus rosed again...
If you think the verse you quoted means that jesus died and rose again, then you are sadly mistaken. The passage is referring to the resurrection of all human beings. Consider what the Qur'an says about Prophet Yahya (John):
19:15 15. And peace be on him the day he was born, the day he dies, and the day he will be raised up to life (again)!

What then do we conclude about Prophet Yahya?

-Muhammads had parents who died...
while Jesus had a parent.
...who died.

Quranic passages (16:61; 40:55; 42:5, 30; 47:19; 48:1-2) we read that Muhammad was exhorted to seek forgiveness for his faults, that not a single living creature would be left on earth if God punished everyone for their wrongdoing...
This was already answered in my first post in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ran-bible.html

In the Quran (2:253; 3:45-49; 4:158, 171; 5:49; 19:33; 89:22) it is noted that Jesus was called the Messiah,
If we believe the Bible, there are no less than 38 Messiahs.
He was born of a virgin,
Adam was born of no parents. Yahya (John the Baptist) and Ishaaq (Isaac) were born to the elderly.
He was among the righteous ones -- those nearest to God
As were millions of others.
He received strength given by the Holy Spirit;
Ruh Al-Qudus is not the Holy Spirit of Christians. Please see here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Rebuttal...he_Holy_Spirit

He could give sight to the blind,
If the Bible is true, then Elisha not only dealt blindness to his enemies, but restored vision to the blind through prayer (II Kings 6:17-20).

And of course, Prophet Muhammad pbuh also cured the eyes of Ali and Qatadah rd, the latter having his eye punctured by an arrow.

cure lepers
As did Elisha heal Naaman (II Kings 5:7-14) - what does that make him? And if I were to quote all the maladies the Prophet Muhammad saws healed, the list would be endless.

and raise the dead;
As did Elisha (I Kings 17:22, II Kings 4:34).

He prophesied His own death and resurrection
Doesn't every believer know that they will die and be resurrected? This is a tenet of faith.

He was called a Word from God and a Spirit from God
The latter being the title of every single human being (Qur'an 32:9).

He is coming back with thousands of angels to judge the world.
Nonsense.

If you want to have a real discussion, then don't chicken out of this debate and switch topics or open a new thread. Stick to the debate and respond to my points, if you can.

Regards
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PRISONERofJOY12
12-27-2005, 02:57 PM
If you think the verse you quoted means that jesus died and rose again, then you are sadly mistaken. The passage is referring to the resurrection of all human beings. Consider what the Qur'an says about Prophet Yahya (John):
Sorry I must have mistake that the HE was SINGULAR-- love those phones.. o well cingular..

...who died.? MUHAMMAD parent.. it is well clear that muhammad had parents.
Jesus was born of a virgin mother.. now who do you think the Father is?


Doesn't every believer know that they will die and be resurrected? This is a tenet of faith.
in the resurrected sense like Jesus did no not like what He did.


As did Elisha heal Naaman (II Kings 5:7-14) - what does that make him? And if I were to quote all the maladies the Prophet Muhammad saws healed, the list would be endless.? what is this point?

yes God gave people power to show that He really existed... and Jesus had power to show that He was the SON of GOD


Adam was born of no parents= YES it is quite difficult to see how someone who was the first human being and not born from a womb not be the son of God... nice arguement about that I love it..

Yahya (John the Baptist) and Ishaaq (Isaac) were born to the elderly.=== John the Baptist knew what His job was... it states it clear in the Bible in the OLD and NEW testiment... ABRAHAM praid to have a son.. which God then promised to give to abraham a time later... which he then got while he was elderly... then God decided to test him.. so what does this have to do with anything?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-27-2005, 07:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
he HE was SINGULAR-- love those phones.. o well cingular..
The He refers to God, not Jesus.

...who died.? MUHAMMAD parent.. it is well clear that muhammad had parents. Jesus was born of a virgin mother.. now who do you think the Father is?
Jesus's mother died too! And if God causes a woman to conceive miraculously, why does that necessitate that the child would be the son of God? It doesn't!

Doesn't every believer know that they will die and be resurrected? This is a tenet of faith.
in the resurrected sense like Jesus did no not like what He did.
The above sentence makes absolutely no sense.

As did Elisha heal Naaman (II Kings 5:7-14) - what does that make him? And if I were to quote all the maladies the Prophet Muhammad saws healed, the list would be endless.? what is this point?

yes God gave people power to show that He really existed... and Jesus had power to show that He was the SON of GOD
How do you conclude that? He only did what previous Prophets did.

Adam was born of no parents= YES it is quite difficult to see how someone who was the first human being and not born from a womb not be the son of God... nice arguement about that I love it..
I'm glad to see that you recognize that.

Yahya (John the Baptist) and Ishaaq (Isaac) were born to the elderly.=== John the Baptist knew what His job was... it states it clear in the Bible in the OLD and NEW testiment... ABRAHAM praid to have a son.. which God then promised to give to abraham a time later... which he then got while he was elderly... then God decided to test him.. so what does this have to do with anything?
Both were born through the miraculous intervention of God just like Jesus pbuh.

Regards
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Ghazi
12-27-2005, 08:00 PM
Salaam

One the Day of of judgment Jesus will be infront of allah and allah will say to hime did you tell your people to take you and Maryem to be Gods and he'll replay No.
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JKFDURAILED123
12-28-2005, 04:41 AM
After reading a book by Josh Mcdowell.. I finally understand Christianity.. where as I do not understand the Muslims beliefs anymore

:peace:

I think one of the accounts on why I can't trust Muhammad is his testimony is 600 years after the actual events occurred where as the new testiment contains eyewitness of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.
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*charisma*
12-28-2005, 04:57 AM
Greetings,

Subhanallah, we can read the Quran and understand it, without it having to be emphasized upon someone else's views. If you had to read another book besides the Bible to have it be understood, than what good are your beliefs?

Honestly I have tried to understand the Christain religion, it is very difficult.

After reading a book by Josh Mcdowell.. I finally understand Christianity.. where as I do not understand the Muslims beliefs anymore
What is it you dont understand?? If you can clearify that plz and thank you :)

peace
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JKFDURAILED123
12-28-2005, 05:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
Greetings,

Subhanallah, we can read the Quran and understand it, without it having to be emphasized upon someone else's views. If you had to read another book besides the Bible to have it be understood, than what good are your beliefs?

Honestly I have tried to understand the Christain religion, it is very difficult.



What is it you dont understand?? If you can clearify that plz and thank you :)

peace
Anything can be difficult without studying it--{one of the freedoms of being a Christian}.
you state that mary is God to? where does it state that in the Bible? please tell me.
then the teachings teach that Jesus was born "miraculously" from Mary, but Muslims do not?

then the difficultiest one of all " They niether killed nor crucified him: it had only the appearance of it." never have I read a part so vague.. unlike the Bible " And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him"--Luke 23:33,KJV.
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*charisma*
12-28-2005, 05:22 AM
Greetings

Anything can be difficult without studying it--{one of the freedoms of being a Christian}.
you state that mary is God to? where does it state that in the Bible? please tell me.
then the teachings teach that Jesus was born "miraculously" from Mary, but Muslims do not?
Your saying one of the freedoms of being a christian is not studying??

No where in the quran does it state that Mary was God. Please provide your proof of where it says that she was.

Also the Prophet Jesus, was born from the virgin Mary by the Power of Allah subhana wa ta'ala. Also plz provide ur proof where it says that he wasnt.

If you dont mind i would like the proofs to be from the Quran, i dont trust all of the Bible and since we are talking about Islam i would like u to use its scripture inshallah

peace
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JKFDURAILED123
12-28-2005, 06:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by *charisma*
Greetings



Your saying one of the freedoms of being a christian is not studying??

No where in the quran does it state that Mary was God. Please provide your proof of where it says that she was.

Also the Prophet Jesus, was born from the virgin Mary by the Power of Allah subhana wa ta'ala. Also plz provide ur proof where it says that he wasnt.

If you dont mind i would like the proofs to be from the Quran, i dont trust all of the Bible and since we are talking about Islam i would like u to use its scripture inshallah

peace
no I said one of the benifits of being a Christian is studying. no wonder why you don't understand the Bible you can't understand something that a human said.

you do believe in the virgin-birth but because of this mericulous act you state HE is just a human being.

oh so your stating that you don't view christians in worshiping Mary as a god?

( geesh wouldn't trust truth if it was in her face.. )

*God the Father, God the Son, and God the Mother (Mary)*
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Nawid
12-28-2005, 09:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JKFDURAILED123
I think one of the accounts on why I can't trust Muhammad is his testimony is 600 years after the actual events occurred where as the new testiment contains eyewitness of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ.
This is Incorrect. Let us examine the "eyewitness" accounts.

The Gospel of Mark:

"Liberal theologians generally believe that the identity of the author is unknown.Conservatives follow the church tradition that the author was Mark."

"Date: Various sources estimate that this gospel was written sometime from 57 to 75 CE."
This raises a question, how old was Mark at the event of crucifixtion?

The Gospel of Matthew:

"Liberals believe that the name of the author is unknown. It was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70 CE, because it describes the event in Matthew 24. Various authorities date Matthew about 85 CE."
So, again the author is unknown? Also, in Matthew 9:9 he or whoever wrote it says "And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him." If Matthew wrote this why does he refer to himself in 3rd person? Why not say, And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw I, Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto me, Follow me. And I arose, and followed him?

How old was Matthew at the event of crucifixtion?

The Gospel of Luke:

"Estimates of the date of writing range from the late 50's to the 90's. A date closer to 90 CE is likely, because the author comments on the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, and because of its dependence on Mark. Most conservative Christians believe that Luke was a doctor who accompanied Paul on his missionary journeys. Most liberal Christians believe that Luke was an educated person whose identity is unknown."

So, again no one knows who "Luke" is, one theoligian even thinks Luke was written by a women :"One interesting feature of the gospel is the use of duplicate parables: one involving a man and another a woman. This, the emphasis on Mary in the first two chapters of the gospel, and other internal evidence, has led one theologian to suggest that the author of Luke was a woman."
Still the same question remains, how old was Luke at the event of crucifixtion?

The Gospel Of John:

" There is speculation that much of the gospel was written by a single, unknown writer, and that a second, later individual reworked the text in order to make it conform to contemporary church teaching. "John" contains a great deal of anti-Jewish sentiment. It holds the Jews and their descendants responsible for the execution of Jesus. It has largely responsible for inspiring Christians to violent anti-Semitic acts in the centuries since it was written."
So, now it was written by a group of people? Also, why would you edit an "Eyewitness" testimony?

"Date: It was probably written between 85 and 100 CE, after believers in Jesus were expelled from Jewish synagogues."
The most important question remains, how old was John at the event of crucifixtion?

All Quotes are from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb1.htm

Quote from the bible was from: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:9;&version=9;

Just to give you an example lets just say that Mark(I will use him because "his" gospel was the earliest of the four written) was 13 years old at the time of the crucifixtion. That would mean if the gospel was written at the earliest time possible he would have had to been at least 70 years of age. So, at 70 years of age he gave an exact account of everything that happened write off the top of his head? That is really hard to believe without any evidence to support it. Do you know the life expectancy of the 1st century? According to 1stcongregational.ws : "Historians and archaeologists who have studied life in First Century Palestine--particularly the years that were the context of Jesus's life--tell us that the average life expectancy at that time was barely thirty years."
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JKFDURAILED123
12-28-2005, 05:09 PM
Luke 1:2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.


2 Peter 1:16
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

from what the scriptures say: they were from eyewitnesses. not passed down so many years.
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Danish
12-29-2005, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PRISONERofJOY12
what does this passage mean?

thereupon she pointed to him. They said, 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' Jesus said, 'I am a servant of ALLAH. HE has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet; 'And HE has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live; 'And HE has made me dutiful towards my mother, and has not made me arrogant and graceless; 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' -- Qur'an, Surah 19:30-35
That passage talks about Prophet Jesus. He spoke in his cradle to defend his mother when asked where jesus came from (virgin birth), so the jesus in cradle defends her. And the passage continues onto glorify Prophet Jesus
-Muhammad died unexpectedly in A.D. 632..
while Jesus rosed again...
We dont believe so :) Beside, what exactly does that suppose to prove?
-Muhammads had parents who died...
while Jesus had a parent.
Agree. But neither did adam, he had no mother no father, is he god? Beside Melchizedek in bible also has no mother not father. Is he god now?

"For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils." -- Hebrews 7:1-4

Quranic passages (16:61; 40:55; 42:5, 30; 47:19; 48:1-2) we read that Muhammad was exhorted to seek forgiveness for his faults, that not a single living creature would be left on earth if God punished everyone for their wrongdoing...

In the Quran (2:253; 3:45-49; 4:158, 171; 5:49; 19:33; 89:22) it is noted that Jesus was called the Messiah, He was born of a virgin, He was among the righteous ones -- those nearest to God, He received strength given by the Holy Spirit; He could give sight to the blind, cure lepers, and raise the dead; He prophesied His own death and resurrection; He was called a Word from God and a Spirit from God; He is coming back with thousands of angels to judge the world. All these characterizations add up to a powerful picture of a Christ who was more than a prophe and -- on Quranic terms alone -- superior to Muhammad
Brother Ansar has given u an excellent reply on this point, so i wont state much. As the quran says in 2:253 "Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour);..." But we believe that Prophet Muhammed was given a miracle which no other prophet had, which by the name is called Mi'raaj
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-29-2005, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JKFDURAILED123
Luke 1:2
just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.


2 Peter 1:16
We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

from what the scriptures say: they were from eyewitnesses. not passed down so many years.
These quotes are clearly false; examine the facts that Dr. Ali Ataie provides us with:
It
is certainly true that we do not affirm that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the
words of God -- They are not even the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. History teaches
us that these books were anonymous until the 180 CE at which time they were pseudonymously
ascribed to two disciples of Christ, a student of Peter, and a missionary partner of Paul.

These so-called “Gospels” were written many decades after the ascension of Christ (between 68
CE - 110 CE), in a language foreign to Jesus himself who spoke Syriac, by four men who never
claim to be writing while inspired by the Holy Ghost. The oldest New Testament manuscripts on
earth, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, were not codified until 350-375 CE.

It is also a fact that all four canonical gospels were composed after the Apostle Paul had penned
all fourteen of his letters and epistles to the various European churches and were widely in
circulation in the Greco-Roman world (Many scholars contend that only seven letters are
genuinely from Paul while the others are pseudonymous). Although there is still a lot of useful
material preserved in the four canonical gospels for us to reconstruct the original Gospel of Jesus,
we must remember that despite this fact, all four accounts are heavily influenced by Pauline
doctrine and Hellenistic elements. Paul’s revolutionary view of the death and resurrection of the
Jewish Messiah, for instance, as atonement for the sins of mankind is apparent even as early as
Mark’s Gospel: “The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a
ransom for many” (Mark 10:45).

Even with this said, much of the actual recorded words of Christ in the New Testament gospels
horrendously contradict statements made by Paul in his writings (See Chapter 3 of the book “In
Defense of Islam” on Voiceforislam.com). Alas, the quest for a Gospel of Jesus Christ that either
predates Paul or was written concurrently with his letters continues.
Regards
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*charisma*
12-30-2005, 01:56 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by JKFDURAILED123
no I said one of the benifits of being a Christian is studying. no wonder why you don't understand the Bible you can't understand something that a human said.
Sorry, i didnt chose to study the Bible, i chose to study the Quran, and then upon memorizing it inshallah, i will look into the Bible to study it for further comparision so that i may be able to debate properly and not be ignorant with the information that i provide. I never said i didnt understand the Bible, i said i didnt understand the Christain religion. If you are saying that the Christain religion is based solely on the Bible, than you have just wronged yourself with faith. And the only thing i dont understand in the Christain religion is the belief of the trinity, it makes no sense to me.

If you think that I dont understand something that a "human" wrote, then so let it be ..Allah can write a much more clear, wisdom filled book incomparable to any human's words, and that is the only book i need in this lifetime so far and the only Book that can ever be written in such elequence. The way the Bible has turned out, i guess a human did write it. I chose to believe in the Quran written by Allah instead :)

you do believe in the virgin-birth but because of this mericulous act you state HE is just a human being.
We believe he is less than a god, but more than a human, he is a prophet and peace be upon him.

oh so your stating that you don't view christians in worshiping Mary as a god?
I dont see where i stated that, i believe you are "trying" to put words in my mouth when i clearly just stated "no where in the quran does it say that Mary peace be upon her was a God."

( geesh wouldn't trust truth if it was in her face.. )
No I trust the truth and sorry to break it to you, but the Bible isnt it.
I was giving you a chance to contradict me with my own belief in the Quran, and sadly you cannot do that.

*God the Father, God the Son, and God the Mother (Mary)*
correction, ALLAH Who has no sons, no parents, and is One and no one is comparable to Him.

peace
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