Intercession [Archive] - IslamicBoard

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 05:22 PM

Hey POBook.

Yes - someone will intercede for us on the day of Judgement.

Please read the following hadith: (saying of our beloved Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him.)

Sahih Bukhari - Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, "On the Day of Resurrection the Believers will assemble and say, 'Let us ask somebody to intercede for us with our Lord.' So they will go to Adam and say, 'You are the father of all the people, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate to you, and taught you the names of all things; so please intercede for us with your Lord, so that He may relieve us from this place of ours.' Adam will say, 'I am not fit for this (i.e. intercession for you).' Then Adam will remember his sin and feel ashamed thereof. He will say, 'Go to Noah, for he was the first Apostle, Allah sent to the inhabitants of the earth.' They will go to him and Noah will say,

'I am not fit for this undertaking.' He will remember his appeal to his Lord to do what he had no knowledge of, then he will feel ashamed thereof and will say, 'Go to the Khalil--r-Rahman (i.e. Abraham).' They will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking. Go to Moses, the slave to whom Allah spoke (directly) and gave him the Torah .' So they will go to him and he will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking.' and he will mention (his) killing a person who was not a killer, and so he will feel ashamed thereof before his Lord, and he will say, 'Go to Jesus, Allah's Slave, His Apostle and Allah's Word and a Spirit coming from Him. Jesus will say, 'I am not fit for this undertaking, go to Muhammad the Slave of Allah whose past and future sins were forgiven by Allah.' So they will come to me and I will proceed till I will ask my Lord's Permission and I will be given permission. When I see my Lord, I will fall down in Prostration and He will let me remain in that state as long as He wishes and then I will be addressed.' (Muhammad!) Raise your head. Ask, and your request will be granted; say, and your saying will be listened to; intercede, and your intercession will be accepted.' I will raise my head and praise Allah with a saying (i.e. invocation) He will teach me, and then I will intercede. He will fix a limit for me (to intercede for) whom I will admit into Paradise. Then I will come back again to Allah, and when I see my Lord, the same thing will happen to me. And then I will intercede and Allah will fix a limit for me to intercede whom I will let into Paradise, then I will come back for the third time; and then I will come back for the fourth time, and will say, 'None remains in Hell but those whom the Quran has imprisoned (in Hell) and who have been destined to an eternal stay in Hell.' " (The compiler) Abu 'Abdullah said: 'But those whom the Qur'an has imprisoned in Hell,' refers to the Statement of Allah:

"They will dwell therein forever." (16.29)

akulion

12-27-2005, 05:29 PM

walikum salam

Yes God is very merciful indeed - infact Allah loves us 700 times more than our parents. But the Sin people carry out with intention is something that they must account for.
In Islam all actions are judged on intentions - so if a person was truly KNOWINGLY evil on this Earth thinking "oh ill get away with it cos God is merciful" then he has forgotten one thing that God is merciful to those deserving of mercy and does not like the arrogant rebellious sinners who purposely 'think' they are smarter than even God.

Combining mercy and punishment is very practical in Islam.
You see Gods mercy is an attribute on its own and his anger is an attribute on its own as well. So lets take this Example:
2 men - 1) Jim 2) Tom

Jim commits 1000 good deeds but murders 1 innocent person and dies like that
Tom commits 1000 sins but saves 1 persons life and dies like that

Now for the sake of example let see how it MAY go....

God with his MERCY reimburses the 1000 sins of Tom because his one good deed pleased God more than his 1000 sins displeased God

God with his anger destroys the 1000 good deeds of Jim because the one murder he comitted was more henious in Gods sight than all his 100 good deeds

So you see thats why no Muslim or any person can say "Oh im so pious and good and ur so evil" because the decision criterion rests with God.

Islam is focused on pleaseing and worshiping God and doing things for Gods sake

And thats where the topic of TAQWA comes in which means "Fear of God" - not fear in the sense of getting a spanking - but fear in the sense of a husband hurting his wife by doing something which may displease her.

I hope i explained it well..if u have further Q's go ahead and ask to ur hearts content

POBook

12-27-2005, 05:29 PM

Thanks for your reply Fe_Sabilillah. If the Qu’ran says there will be no intercession but the Hadith says there will be intercession, which of these two books do I believe?

Wayne

Silver Pearl

12-27-2005, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

Salam Akulion,

Thank you for your response. Concerning forgiveness: GOD is truly forgiving. I believe that with all my heart. But is GOD not also a Holy, Righteous, and Just GOD? Do we live in a world that has laws and the breaking of those laws involves punishment. People might be very sorry for breaking a law, but if caught, they have to pay a price. When we sin against GOD, does He simply ignore sin? How would you combine justice and mercy together?

Thanks --- Wayne

Greetings Wayne,

Welcome to the forum

Yes, God is all-forgiving .......Truly, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (2:173).

When one sins then they can ask for forgiveness and Verily Allah (swt) is the forgiver, Repentance is vital. However, a calamity or something ‘bad’ could happen to someone but that is merely a test. And certainly, We shall test you with something of fear, hunger, loss of wealth, lives and fruits, but give glad tidings to As-Sabirin (the patient ones, etc.). (2:155)

I hope that answers your question :)

Thanks for your reply Fe_Sabilillah. If the Qu’ran says there will be no intercession but the Hadith says there will be intercession, which of these two books do I believe?

The transgressors will have no friend nor an intercessor to be obeyed." (the ayat you quoted)

'None remains in Hell but those whom the Quran has imprisoned (in Hell) and who have been destined to an eternal stay in Hell.' "

The hadith explains the Qur'an....

akulion

12-27-2005, 05:34 PM

The Quran and Hadith are Primary and Secondary sources of guidance in Islam respectively.

Where things are mentioned in the Quran - their details and finer points are explained in the Hadith

Plus the hadith contains many stories which were told by the Prophet to the people because of the Questions they used to ask.

So the Quran contains all the guidelines
And the hadith contains all the details :)

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 05:37 PM

Allah is He Who created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods, and He mounted the throne (of authority); you have not besides Him any guardian or any intercessor, will you not then mind? (32:04)

This is depending on the translation of the verse. If you look into this within the arabic context - it has a meaning that you dont have any protector, or intercessor besides him - hence you dont have anyone who can go against the will of Allah.

Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will only intercede through Allah Almighty's will. Like its mentioned in the hadith:

When I see my Lord, I will fall down in Prostration and He will let me remain in that state as long as He wishes and then I will be addressed.' (Muhammad!) Raise your head. Ask, and your request will be granted; say, and your saying will be listened to; intercede, and your intercession will be accepted.'

So that is showing that the intercession can not be done, but only through Allah Almighty's will.

I hope you understand what i mean, because - we as muslims believe that only Allah Almighty has the power to decide whether a person is going heaven or hell or not - and the intercession of our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him) will be a way of asking Allah, to allow the believers who were destined to hell, to be able to go paradise.

POBook

12-27-2005, 05:41 PM

How is "no intercession" explained with "intercession"? Is this not the same as saying that "yes" in the Qu'ran means "no" in the Hadith?

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 05:44 PM

You have no guardian besides God, and the intercession can only be completed with Allah Almighty's permission, without the permission of God, no-one will be interceded for.

akulion

12-27-2005, 05:46 PM

no not in the least

you see the intercession is ONLY with Allah

no one has the POWER to interceed - but they do have the power to PRAY to Allah and ASK and IF Allah grants it then they may intercede THROUGH the mercy of Allah.

Example:

Im the leader of my company - I decide and take all decisions and no one can take the decisions except me

Now my employees ASK me for changes - IF I decide I grant them

My employees ASK for decisions to be taken and IF I want I make them

What remains true under ALL circumstances is that ONLY I can make those decisions - not my employees EVER except by my will

Hope that example sheds some light on the issue :)

POBook

12-27-2005, 05:48 PM

Thank you for the welcome Silver Pearl...that's a very interesting name. How did you decide on it?

Yes, I am a firm believer in GOD as a forgiving GOD. But is he not also just? If you have children who do not do what you tell them to, do you not discipline them or punish them? There is no perfect human being. We have all committed sins against GOD--intentionally or unintentionally. I want to know how a Holy and Righteous God is going to deal with sin.

POBook

12-27-2005, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

You have no guardian besides God, and the intercession can only be completed with Allah Almighty's permission, without the permission of God, no-one will be interceded for.

How does it make you feel, Sa_Bilillah, to know that you may not have someone to intercede with you on Judgement day? Are you comfortable with the possibility that you may spend eternity in hell and not in heaven? Please know that I say this out of love.

akulion

12-27-2005, 05:54 PM

God gave us a free will in the Quran Allah swt says

He who purifies his soul shall indeed triumph
and he who corrupts it shall indeed lose

The sufferings other humans undergo at the hands of tyrants and evil people is no joke - they will account for it.

Mercy is granted by Allah to those who deserve it - who tried - who repented - who made the effort

As for those who were too busy being arrogant and not caring in the least about doing Evil they are not deserving Mercy - they wasted their lives corrupting their souls

Even if they repent before they die - they have a chance but they MUST make the effort

And please do not forget God is also merciful but he is also capable of being angry - infact God has many attributes out of which we only know 99

99 Attributes of Allah

akulion

12-27-2005, 05:55 PM

The fact is that we try our best and as long as we try we have the reassurance of gaining Allah's mercy :D
Alhamdolillah
So no worries

POBook

12-27-2005, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by akulion

I admire your leadership in your company, Akulion. I do not consider myself to be a leader despite the fact that many people have said I am a leader. That aside, I think your example is good. What would you do with an employee who took it upon himself or herself to make a decision without consulting you?

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 06:00 PM

Regarding your second question - most non muslims think of God as merciless, and someone who wants to imply laws on people without any justness.

But in reality - this is totally the opposite of the truth.

In the qur'an it is said many times that Allaah will forgive the sins of people if they turn to him in repentance.

Would you not agree that what the following verse mentions is more than justice?

6:160 He that doeth good shall have ten times as much to his credit: He that doeth evil shall only be recompensed according to his evil: no wrong shall be done unto (any of) them.

Allaah also says:

2:286 On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.

14:7 And remember! your Lord caused to be declared (publicly): "If ye are grateful, I will add more (favours) unto you; But if ye show ingratitude, truly My punishment is terrible indeed."

Therefore Allaah is not asking us for something that is hard; but merely that we obey Him and show gratitude for all that He has given us:

14:31 Speak to my servants who have believed, that they may establish regular prayers, and spend (in charity) out of the sustenance we have given them, secretly and openly, before the coming of a Day in which there will be neither mutual bargaining nor befriending.

It is not enough to simply say that you "believe in God", as is explained in the Qur'an:

[29.2] Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tried?
[29.3] And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars.
[29.4] Or do they who work evil think that they will escape Us? Evil is it that they judge!

This only a few verses showing the Justness of Allah Almighty, and that whatever a person does - it will have either good or bad consequences, depending on the action and the intention.

Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family) said:

"Actions are but by intentions and every man will have only what he intended..."

explanation of hadith: http://www.islamtoday.com/showme2.cf...sub_cat_id=552

in another hadith, a hadith qudsi (the most important out of all hadith because they are said to our beloved Prophet (peace be upon him):

Hadith Qudsi 15:

On the authority of Abu Harayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Prophet (PBUH) said: Allah the Almighty said:

I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.

(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.

Allaah Almighty, the Most Forgiving says:

O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great at it.

Hadith Qudsi 34

Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones. Then He explained it [by saying that] he who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed.

Hadith Qudsi 16

thats just a few.. if you need more info. please ask.

POBook

12-27-2005, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by akulion

The fact is that we try our best and as long as we try we have the reassurance of gaining Allah's mercy :D
Alhamdolillah
So no worries

What would you do if one of your employees was doing their best but just kept messing up--costing you money, pride, and time. Would you keep this employee?

akulion

12-27-2005, 06:02 PM

wow bro thats a great reply!

Three cheers for bro Fi_Sabilillah

Hip Hip Hooray!

akulion

12-27-2005, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

What would you do if one of your employees was doing their best but just kept messing up--costing you money, pride, and time. Would you keep this employee?

Yes infact I have a special program for such employees which is called a Training workshop

If we feel our employee is trying their best but they make too many mistakes we send them to training workshop and then they are relocated if necessary

This is a function carried out simply because the cost of re-hiring outweighs the cost of firing and hiring

But thats another Issue

----------------------------

Where God is concerned he does not have 'limited' resources like we humans do - so for God to forgive anyone he wants takes no effort on Gods part and for God to punish someone takes no effort on his part either.

Infact when God created the heavens and Earth it neither lessened or increased anything to his might or power in the least!

Also when God will end the universe it will take no effort on his part and it will neither lessen nor increase anything in his power or kingdom

POBook

12-27-2005, 06:06 PM

Akulion and Fi_Sabilillah

I have to go. I want to continue this discussion. I really appreciate both of you and your input. What is generally the best time we can meet on-line? i would like to be back.

I like to say in closing --- GOD bless!

akulion

12-27-2005, 06:12 PM

Well I dont have any set times, but this is a good time usually for me - so u can catch me around these timings

And I will greet you with the greetings of All the prophets including Jesus:
Peace Be Upon You :D

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 06:15 PM

Yup.. same here. i'll be on for a while insha Allaah (God willing.)

Peace. :)

POBook

12-27-2005, 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah

... [QUOTE EDITED]: Please do not quote large posts as they are a waste of space, thankyou.

Great response! I must go but one final question for now (I want us to talk more): What gives GOD the right to forgive? If He is just, surely He has to punish sin. I believe GOD hates to punish people He loves, but as a just GOD, can He look at sinful people and do nothing about that? Does that not do away with His justice?

akulion

12-27-2005, 06:30 PM

Ok let me give you one Example to explain the situation

I dopnt know this Hadith in EXACT words, but I am sure many Muslim shave heard this one before insha'Allah

According to one Hadith...

There was one man who was very very sinful
But one day he heard about Islam and decided to learn about it
In his quest for knowledge on Islam he travelled many places asking people where to find The Prophet Of God (Mohammed (s) )
Eventually he reached one place where they told him where to find the Prophet(sa)

So as the man was headed towards the town, he died on the way!
The angels of Death came to take his soul...

The Angels of "account taking" were looking at his accounts and decided that his place was in hellfire according to his deeds.

So as they were about to write his place in hellfire according to his deeds..Allah told them to stop and measure the distance between him and the city where the Prophet was and the distance between where he had come from and was currently at.

they measured the distance and found the distance between him and the city where the Prophet was to be shorter.
So God forgave all his sins with his mercy and admitted the man to the Gardens of Paradise

So you see not only is God merciful but also just - and those who get his mercy will be deserving of it - so the sins will be forgiven by God because of his justice and his mercy working together :D

Silver Pearl

12-27-2005, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

You’re welcome,

Thank you, it is the meaning of this Arabic name I liked.

Disciplining and punishing in a way are similar if not the same. If my children did something wrong I would ‘punish’ them I suppose, not physically hopefully inshallah (God willing). However, the relationship between a child and his parent is quite different from the relationship between the creator and his creation. In Islam God is not our ‘father’ like in Christianity, he is the creator.

Those who sin in vain and arrogance and are too proud to seek repentance are punished. And their punishment is the hellfire for they were the transgressors and wrongdoers.

If one who sinned seeks forgiveness they may be forgiven, that is the way of the Merciful. For example, if one was a disbeliever for 70 years (killing, committing adultery, stealing) and then one day embraced Islam, and became a believer ALL their past sins will be erased and they will become like a new born child. If that same person dies the following day he will go to jannah (paradise).

Wa Allahu’3llim (And God knows best)

What gives GOD the right to forgive?

He is the creator, he does not have to seek permission for he is the create of everything seen and unseen.

If He is just, surely He has to punish sin.

No he doesn't HAVE to punish, by his mercy he will forgive if one repents.

Except those who repent and do righteous deeds, and openly declare (the truth which they concealed). These, I will accept their repentance. And I am the One Who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.(2:160)

akulion

12-27-2005, 07:02 PM

Quran Chapter 5
Verse 18
(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah and His beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay ye are but men of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)."

39:7 It ye reject (Allah) truly Allah has no need of you; but He liketh not ingratitude from His servants: if ye are grateful He is pleased with you. No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another. In the end to your Lord is your return when He will tell you the truth of all that ye did (in this life). For He knoweth well all that is in (men's) hearts.

So the final criterion of Judgement remains with Allah for he knows all things which we even dont know!

- Qatada -

12-27-2005, 07:39 PM

Good question. :)

God gives people life and this is a test, within our life - we have to perform as much good deeds we can do as possible. And as you know - a human is a creature which naturally will be sinful, therefore they have to race to repentance, and by doing good deeds - it will remove their bad deeds too.

And keep up prayer in the two parts of the day and in the first hours of the night; surely good deeds take away evil deeds this is a reminder to the mindful. (11:114)

therefore we should race with each other to do good deeds within islam, which involve praying, giving to the poor, helping the needy, by smiling at your brother etc.

And we should also race with each other towards forgiveness, because we never know when we will die.

Now if a person sincerely repents and asks for forgiveness, God will forgive him, and the person will not be punished for that crime.

Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for God will change the evil of such persons into good, and God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

And whoever repents and does good has truly turned to God with an (acceptable) conversion;-

[25:70 - 71]

God doesn't just forgive the persons sins, but he even rewards the person because they've sincerely repented and they dont want to go back to that sin again.

Now thats more than Just dont you think. :)

The reason God forgives is because He knows that humans will naturally sin, but it is more of a theory of who will turn back to God and ask God for the forgiveness & who will follow the commands of the Almighty.

Now the second part of your questions probably totally different to what you expect, and i'll try my best to clarify it.

First of all i want you to remember that God is the Most Just, this means that he is even Just to the non muslims - the ones who dont even believe in God.

The first point is, God will test those whom he loves - like its been mentioned in the verse above:

[29.2] Do men think that they will be left alone on saying, We believe, and not be tried?
[29.3] And certainly We tried those before them, so Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know the liars.

That means that God will test the people (the believers) he loves in this life. This means putting them through different sorts of hardships, so it is a Just way of forgiving the persons sins.

this relates to the hadith of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) who said:

“Whatever befalls a Muslim of exhaustion, illness, worry, grief, nuisance or trouble, even though it may be no more than a prick of a thorn, earns him forgiveness by Allah of some of his sins.”

But you have to keep in mind:

2:286 On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns.

This way - God is being Just and the believers sins will be forgiven.

Whereas, God will keep giving goodness to the non-believers in this life, for the deeds they have done. For instance, if a person who is a kafir (a person who rejects faith) has smiled at a person in this life - God will reward them in some way for that deed they have done,

so the person may get alot of riches in this life. This is the Justness God gives to all people whether they believe or not.

Whereas God may keep testing the believer in this life, but we will stay pleased and remain steadfast, like our beloved Prophet

Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:

" Wondrous are the believer's affairs. For him there is good in all his affairs, and this is so only for the believer. When something pleasing happens to him, he is grateful, and that is good for him; and when something displeasing happens to him, he is enduring (sabar), and that is good for him " (sahih Muslim )

but the rejectors of faith will try to stop the believers..

Those in sin used to laugh at those who believed, (83:29)

And whenever they passed by them, used to wink at each other (in mockery); (83:30)

And when they returned to their own people, they would return jesting; (83:31)

And whenever they saw them, they would say, "Behold! These are the people truly astray!" (83:32)

But this doesn't mean that the people who reject faith and do bad acts get away with it, no - they will get the fire in the afterlife.

For those who reject their Lord (and Cherisher) is the Penalty of Hell: and evil is (such), Destination. (67:06)]

Say: "See ye?- If Allah were to destroy me, and those with me, or if He bestows His Mercy on us,- yet who can deliver

the Unbelievers from a grievous Penalty?" (67:28)

But the disbelievers keep rejecting faith:

..their messengers came to them with clear arguments; so it was not Allah Who should do them injustice, but they were unjust to themselves. (9:70)

The people in hell will be in different punishments, which will be affected by the amount of sins they had commited in this life, we know

this because our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his beloved family) said:

Hadith - Qudsi 38

When Allah Almighty created Paradise and Hell-fire, He sent Gabriel to Paradise, saying: Look at it and at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.

The Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him said: So he came to it and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared therein for its inhabitants. The Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him said: So he returned to Him and said: By your glory, no one hears of it without entering it. So He ordered that it be encompassed by forms of hardship, and He said: Return to it and look at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants. The Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him said:

So he returned to it and found that it was encompassed by forms of hardship. Then he returned to Him and said: By Your glory, I fear that no one will enter it. He said: Go to Hell-fire and look at it and what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants, and he found that it was in layers, one above the other.

Then he returned to Him and said: By Your glory, no one who hears of it will enter it. So He ordered that it be encompassed by lusts. Then He said: Return to it. And he returned to it and said: By Your glory, I am frightened that no one will escape from entering it.

...That was because they rebelled and used to transgress. (5:78)

They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do!

The believers are treatedly unjustly;

Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say: Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty. (22:40)

Those who, should We establish them in the land, will keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and enjoin good and forbid evil; and Allah's is the end of affairs. (22:41)

"The believers, men and women, are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong." (9:71)

Those who say: Our Lord! surely we believe, therefore forgive us our faults and save us from the chastisement of the fire. (3:16)

The patient, and the truthful, and the obedient, and those who spend (benevolently) [in charity] and those who ask forgiveness in the morning times. (3:17)

Those who faithfully observe their trusts and their covenants; (23:08)

And who (strictly) guard their prayers;- (23:09)

These are they who are the heirs, (23:10)

Who will inherit Paradise: they will dwell therein (for ever). (23:11)

"Say, 'Shall I bring your attention to things far better than those? For the righteous are gardens in nearness to their Lord, with rivers flowing beneath, eternal therein, with pure companions and the good pleasure of Allah. For within Allah's sight are all His servants – especially those who say, "Our Lord, we have indeed believed, so forgive us our sins and protect us from the agony of the Fire." Those who are patient, are truthful, who worship devoutly, who spend in the way of Allah and who prays for forgiveness in the pre-dawn hours.'"
[ali'-Imran, 3: 15-17]

"Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds to gardens beneath which rivers flow, they shall be adorned with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments therein will be silk. They have been guided in this life to good speech, and they have been guided to the path of Him, the All Praised."
[Hajj, 22: 23-24]

"Their salutation on the day they meet Him will be 'Peace!; and He has prepared for them a generous reward."
[Ahzab, 33: 44]

This is the just a taster of the Justness of Allah the Most Beneficial, the Most Merciful to His servants.

If you need more info, or dont understand - please do ask. :) & i hope you understand insha Allaah (God willing.)

wa Allaahu a'lam. (and Allaah the Most Beneficial, the Most Merciful knows best.)

POBook

12-28-2005, 04:18 PM

"God gives people life and this is a test, within our life - we have to perform as much good deeds we can do as possible. And as you know - a human is a creature which naturally will be sinful, therefore they have to race to repentance, and by doing good deeds - it will remove their bad deeds too."

Salam Fi_Sabilillah,

Thank you for such a detailed response. Am I right in saying that in order to go to paradise, our good deeds must outweigh our bad deeds? I don't know if you have any children. I have two children. One of the things a I do as a parent is punish my children. This does not mean that I do not love them. I know very few parents who do not punish their children. We live in a world that has laws to be obeyed. If these laws are broken, whether broken intentionally or un-intentionally, and the person is caught, that person will receive punishment. That person can be very sorry and seek forgiveness as much as they want. They can beg not to be punished. However, a law was broken, and so that person will have to pay a fine or serve a sentence. If we trespass against GOD, whether we do it intentionally or unintentionally, have we not then broken a law? GOD is forgiving; He is merciful. GOD is also Holy and He is just. Must he not then punish? If GOD is only a GOD of mercy and forgiveness, then why have laws? Why could people not just do what they want; when they want?

I hope this makes sense. Again, I appreciate your willingness to talk.:)

- Qatada -

12-28-2005, 09:13 PM

Hey again.

subhan Allaah (glory be to Allaah) you got some really good questions, and i love the way your so interested in this. :)

I dont have any children lol, but i do understand what you mean - that one should punish their child to tell them the difference between right and wrong, if they have commited a crime, but dont you think you should ask them why they actually performed that act? what motivated them to do that? if it was for a good purpose - then surely you would let them off and forgive them.

Referring to your first question - the answer can be yes, God will allow people to enter paradise if the good deeds outweigh their bad deeds, but these deeds will not be the reason for them entering paradise - but it will only be through Allaah the Most Beneficial's Mercy, that we do enter paradise - because the reward of paradise is too high for a persons deeds to be enough to allow them into paradise.

The reason why I can say this is because:

Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his beloved family) said,

"A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it" (Sahih Bukhari 4:51, Narrated Abu Huraira)

Hence - even if we had all the wealth in this world, and we gave it all to charity - it still wouldn't be enough to pay the price for paradise, & because Allah Almighty has seen the person strive & struggle in this life to do good deeds, insha Allaah (God willing) - that person will enter paradise through Allaah Almighty, the Most Beneficial's Mercy.

------

Referring to your second point - Allaah Almighty has set some rules for mankind to abide by. Like you know - these rules are there to keep society just, without any sort of vice, corruption etc. Allaah Almighty doesn't just make laws to force them upon people - but it is a matter of who will listen and obey them, and who will turn away and transgress by breaking them laws.

This has been happening since the beginning of time, since Adam (peace be upon him) the first human to ever walk on the earth, and it will always keep happening - people will keep turning away from God's commands.

Woe to man! What hath made him reject Allah; Of what thing did He create him?

From a sperm-drop: He hath created him, and then mouldeth him in due proportions; Then (as for) the way-- He has made it easy (for him)Then He causes him to die, then assigns to him a grave,

(80:17 - 21)

God has been sending prophets & messengers, some with holy scriptures and some reminding people of God , to remind the people of a terrible day, when they will be judged on all their actions within this life,

Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off. (75:13)

Nay! man is evidence against himself, (75:14)

so Allaah Almighty will never treat anyone unjustly, but the person will be accountable for their own acts within this life.

This leads upto the part where we were discussing about peoples intentions and their acts;

Lets refer to this hadith of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family.)

="Actions are but by intentions and every man will have only what he intended. So whoever emigrated for Allah and His Messenger, then his emigration was for Allah and His Messenger. And whoever emigrated to attain something of this world or to marry a woman, then his emigration was for whatever reason he emigrated."

[Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

So referring to this hadith - which is a perfect example of peoples intentions and their acts, it makes one realise that if a person is doing an act, your intention is what influences that act.

obviously Allaah the All Knowing knows us more than we know ourselves, because Allaah Almighty created us - so Allaah knows our intention before we do any act.

Therefore we will be judged first and foremost on our intention, (now refer to this hadith)

Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones. Then He explained it [by saying that] he who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed.

Hadith Qudsi 16

so from the hadith above - we can say this:

intention of a good deed = 1 good deed recorded.

intention + act of doing good = 10 to 700 (or many times over) good deeds recorded.

intention to do bad, but doesn't do it = 1 good deed.

intention to do bad, and does it = 1 bad deed.

So even if a person was going to do something good, with a good intention - but something bad came out of it - they will still get rewarded with a good deed for it because their intention was to do a good act.

But in islam - we know that Allaah Almighty is watching over us no matter what we do - so we have to be aware that we do keep our intentions good, because on the day of judgement - we will be questioned, and shown everything we did in this life, and them deeds will also be a partial proof for us entering paradise or not.

------

The third part was explained in the previous post, but i may have not been that clear.

Like you know - if we commit crimes, we will be punished for it whether in this life or the afterlife, but this doesn't mean that we shouldn't show God that we are sorry for our crime. Allaah is the Most Merciful and like i've said above - He knows our intention, therefore if we are asking for forgiveness sincerely with a strong intention of not doing that crime or sin again - then God is prepared to forgive us, because its a mistake that we shall learn from, something that we'll try our best to learn from so we dont do it again.

But like i've mentioned before, we will keep commiting sins in this life, some on purpose, and some by mistake.

..And there is no sin for you in the mistakes that ye make unintentionally, but what your hearts purpose (that will be a sin for you), and Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful. (33:05)

Their are 99 names in the qur'an of Allaah Almighty, each describing a special attribute to Allaah Almighty.. there are also 114 chapters within the qur'an, and at the beginning of 113 chapters, we recite (english translation of):

"In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Compassionate".

And the names Ghafooru Raheem (Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful) are mentioned so much times in the qur'an, which shows the eternal Mercy of Allaah Almighty.

There is a reason why them names are mentioned so much, and the reason is because Allaah is showing endless Mercy towards the people, so the people dont have a excuse to turn away from God, they wont feel afraid that they have too much sins - because they have proof that their God will forgive them if they sincerely dont want to do

that sin again, and will have a fresh new start of doing good from then on.

This is why if any human has come to islam - all their previous sins are forgiven and even turned to good deeds! because Allaah Almighty knows that the person is prepared to give up their bad acts, and due to this sacrifice - Allaah Almighty will reward the believers with paradise, because they sacrificed their desires (eg. gave their riches to the poor, worked hard to enjoin the truth and forbade the evil etc.) for a more better reward for what they did.

[As for those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism) and do righteous good deeds, for them are Gardens (Paradise) as an entertainment, for what they used to do.(32:19)

This is when the situation of doing good, forbidding the evil, and enduring in patience comes in.

Allaah Almighty swears by time:

I swear by the time,

Verily Man is in loss,

Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

(103: 1 - 3)

This is such a small chapter within the qur'an but it gives a really detailed idea of what we have to do in our life, and if we dont do it - we're wasting our chance, wasting our lives when we could be doing good deeds to get a position in paradise.

Allaah Almighty is swearing by time, that we wont be successful unless we first and foremost - believe (in Allaah as the only true deity worthy of worship,

And enjoin on people the truth, this can include the truth about faith, and any other form of truth too, forbidding the evil etc. (and Allaah Almighty knows best.)

We should do good acts, which have been prescribed for us, eg. helping the needy, performing prayer, fasting, etc.

And enjoin on each other patience;

this can be in any situation, and patience plays a big role - like you noticed how;

- Jesus (peace be upon him and his beloved family) had to be so patient against the jews when they went against him.

- When pharoah was a oppressor to the children of israel and Moses (peace be upon him and his beloved family) had to stay patient for some decades before pharoah got destroyed.

- When the people of arabia attacked our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his beloved family.) and they tried to kill him, imprison him, etc. but after 23yrs of patience, nine of the countries in the arabian peninsula came to islam.

This happened to all the prophets, and like i've mentioned before in my earlier post, the believers will keep getting tested, the more a person gets tested in this life - the more Allaah Almighty loves that person - because that is a just way of rewarding the believers. This is the reason why Allaah Almighty has given the most toughest of lives to the prophets.

And thus did We make for every prophet an enemy, the Shaitans (satans) from among men and jinn, some of them suggesting to others varnished falsehood to deceive (them), and had your Lord pleased they would not have done it, therefore leave them and that which they forge. (6:112)

I hope you understand what i mean, if not - then please ask again. :)

POBook

12-29-2005, 07:18 AM

Selam Akulion,

"Quran Chapter 5
Verse 18
(Both) the Jews and the Christians say: "We are sons of Allah and His beloved." Say: "Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay ye are but men of the men He hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)."

Does Allah love those whom he forgives and hate those whom he punishes?

POBook

12-29-2005, 07:31 AM

Selam fi_sabilillah,

Thank you once again for your reply. As a 16-year-old, you are very learned in Islam:) . If it's OK with you, I want to take a different tangent for the moment. We started on intercession. This is very important so I hope we can get back to this. We then talked a little about mercy and justice. We must get back to this as well. For now, what is your understanding of the following verse from Surat al Ma'ida, The Tale Spread:48:

"And unto you we have revealed the Scripture with truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it."?

and the verse from Sunat Yunus, Jonah:94:

"And if you (Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which we reveal unto you, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before you."?

- Qatada -

12-29-2005, 04:17 PM

Hey.

I just want to start off with the point that i'm in no way like a scholar lol, so i wont be able to answer every single question you ask me, or maybe not answer it with enough depth. But i'll give it my best shot insha Allaah (God willing.)

"And unto you we have revealed the Scripture with truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it." (10:94)

Now looking back into the history of the time of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

He (peace be upon him) had no complete knowledge of religion - he (peace be upon him) knew that the pagan arabs worshipped idols, but he (peace be upon him) detested that idea, why should people worship stone which can neither benefit a person, nor harm a person?

The majority of the jews and christians lived outside the area of Mecca, and because our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) stayed in Mecca for most of his youth, he never had no or just a little knowledge concerning their (the jews and christian) beliefs.

Us muslims believe that Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them both and their beloved families) were prophets of Allaah Almighty - they came as messengers with holy scriptures (the torah, and the injeel [gospel]) and they gave the same message to the people - worship Allaah alone, without any partners.. the message was simple - but people distorted the message of the bible, and the torah after the prophets had passed away.

This is why Allaah Almighty revealed the qur'an:

Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.

No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.

Naught is said to you but what was said indeed to the messengers before you; surely your Lord is the Lord of forgiveness and the Lord of painful retribution.

(41:41-43)

so Allaah Almighty has sent down the qur'an, with the same message as the prophets those came before. And the part 'and a watcher over it' means that it will never get distorted from the day it was revealed, and will remain that way till the day of judgement. It can never get distorted because Allaah Almighty has protected it from getting distorted:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (15:09)

---

"And if you (Muhammad) are in doubt concerning that which we reveal unto you, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before you." (10:94)

This, referring to the verse you pointed out earlier (10:94), may mean that our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) could ask the christians and jews regarding their beliefs to give a more securer feeling that he (peace be upon him) is a prophet, and that there have been prophets before him - so he is not alone, others have also experienced this.

This is a natural feeling, for instance - if a person is the first to do a job, you may feel self-conscious, whereas if you know that others have done a similar job before you, it gives a feeling of confidence and security.

I think its better if you ask a more knowledgable person regarding that, maybe bro Ansar off this forum. :)

---

Referring to what you asked brother Akulion - i think you have to remember that God tests those he loves, for instance the majority of the people who turn to God - do you think its people who have a really fun, high class lifestyle? or are the majority; poor, distressed people?

This is the reality of the world, and every single prophet that comes - the majority of the poor will follow him, whereas most of the time - the rich turn away.

A really good example of this is with pharoah who thought he was self-sufficient. God sent a plague, so pharoah would turn to Moses (peace be upon him) and repent. This shows that God sent the punishment so pharoah would turn to God and repent, but he never due to his pride - which lead to his destruction, in this life and the hereafter.

This shows that punishment of this life, and forgiveness is linked together, if people had all their desires fulfilled in this life - then what would be the purpose of paradise? If all the prophets had the most best & easiest of lives in this life - then what would be the purpose of this life?

wa Allaahu a'lam. (and Allaah Almighty knows best.)

If you dont understand what i mean, then it may be better that you discuss some areas with bro Ansar, because i may not be knowledgable enough to answer everything you ask.. sorry.

Thanks. :)

POBook

12-29-2005, 07:14 PM

Hi again Fi_Sabilillah

You said, "...but people distorted the message of the bible, and the torah after the prophets had passed away."

Who distorted the message of the Bible? When did they distort it?:confused:

Ansar Al-'Adl

12-29-2005, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

Hello POBook,
For starters, take a look at what Jeremiah 8:8 says:
How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie. (NASB)

Jeremiah makes it very clear to the people that they have turned their scriptures into a LIE. For more info, one can refer to Misquoting Jesus by Prof. Ehrmans as well as the online articles by Islamic-Awareness such as Textual Reliability/Accuracy of the New testament.

I didn't get a chance to review this entire thread, but while browsing through it, I caught some examples of the common misconceptions Christians have of Islam.

Misconception #1 The God of Islam is hateful and does not love anyone
In response to an article with this claim, I wrote:

The article's major points can be summarised as follows:

1. Allah rejects the notion of fathership; the Qur'an depicts him instead as a master
2. His love is restricted to a select few
3. Muhammad did not experience contentment with 'his god', but rather fear.
4. Therefore, Allah is distant, and His love is shallow.

If I've missed any points let me know. I'll attempt to address each point in order now, inshaa'Allah.

1. The first point arises from a failure to understand the Qur'anic concept of God and its description of God as our Rabb. The word Rabb implies a cherisher, sustainer, lord, and guardian. It carries many of the meanings associated with the english word 'father', yet it maintains the superiority and invulnerability of the entity in question. It maintains any good meaning of the word father, while dismissing all the confusion that has arisen from the term.

2. The second point is also mistaken as the Qur'an clarifies that Allah's love may be universal and it also may be specific. (see here, which I think is a good overall response to your article) As the Qur'an states:
My punishment I inflict upon whom I will but My rahmah embraces all things... (7:156)
O our Sustainer! You embrace all things within (Your) rahmah and knowledge. (40:7)
God's mercy is probably the most emphasized concept in islam. We invoke it twice before reciting any chapter in the Qur'an (save the ninth), and both the Qur'an and our Prophet have been described as a manifestation of God's mercy (45:20 and 21:107, respectively). The Qur'an repeatedly tells man never to despair of God's mercy (39:53). After reading the Qur'an carefully, one can not help but come away with an image of a loving God who even 'races' to those servants who merely take one step towards Him (Hadith Qudsi).

3. This entire argument is flawed since it was not Allah whom Muhammad met at cave Hira, but Angel Jibreel, who came in an imposing manner to inform Muhammad (pbuh) of his Prophethood, which itself carries much wisdom. However the ahadith and the Qur'an clearly mention the tranquility and comfort the believers feel when close to their Lord, and the invincibility they acquire to all worldly things. For example the Qur'an states that when God is pleased with His servants, they experience peace and tranquility and increase in faith (48:18). And when believers profess their faith in God they recieve a sense of peace and warmth (46:13). In recounting His favours upon Muhammad, Allah mentions that He provided him with safe refuge and granted him peace and contentment (93:5-8). Allah also opened his heart and removed his burden (94:1-3). Allah repeatedly states that He is gentle, kind and gracious to His servants (42:19). He is the Friend, Protector and Guardian of those who have faith (2:257).

4. The last point should be obviously false by know, but just to make sure, let's quote the Qur'an again...
2:186 When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way.

:w:

Misconception #2 Islamic salvation is merely a currency of good and bad deeds

This is also not true. It is true that as Muslims, we believe that God has sent us here on earth with a divine mission to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil. Those who do good deeds will be rewarded and those who act wrongly will be punished. But this is not the entire understanding of salvation. Firstly, one must have eemaan in Allah and accept the message of His Prophets. Then a person must act in accordance with that message, which entails performing righteous deeds. But ultimately, it is not our deeds that will win us a place in paradise, it is the immense and unlimited mercy of Our Creator. This is demonstrated in the following hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The good deeds of any person will not make him enter Paradise." (i.e., None can enter Paradise through his good deeds.) They (the Prophet's companions) said, 'Not even you, O Allah's Apostle?' He said, "Not even myself, unless Allah bestows His favor and mercy on me." (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 577)

The deeds are a means of earning Allah's favour and mercy. Moreover, the way to Allah is not difficult for those who seek Him. If someone strives to earn Allah's pleasure, Allah will make it easy for them. Allah informs us in the Qur'an:
29:69. As for those who strive hard in Our Cause, We will surely guide them to Our Paths. And verily, Allâh is with the pious."

And another hadith:
On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the messenger of Allah say:
Allah the Almighty has said:

"O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as its."

(Tirmidhi)

All this makes it very clear that Allah swt has made a very open path for humanity to enter into His mercy, we need only strive in this direction.

Another question you asked:

What gives GOD the right to forgive? If He is just, surely He has to punish sin. I believe GOD hates to punish people He loves, but as a just GOD, can He look at sinful people and do nothing about that? Does that not do away with His justice?

The answer is that God's forgiveness is inter-twined with His justice. So in reality we are looking at two types of sins here: Sins which harm others and sins which do not. An example of the first would be abuse, while the second would be abstaining from prayer. Since the second category of sins involves disobedience to God, it is solely His right to forgive such transgressions. As for the first category, it is also God's right to forgive since the transgressions are against His creation, which belong to Him. Nevertheless, God has a system of justice such that when one is harmed it will either expiate their sins or add to their rewards in the next life. So in the end, no matter what God does, justice is always served.

If I have missed any significant points, please let me know.

Regards

akulion

12-29-2005, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

Those who persist in doing wrong things and never desist earn the anger and wrath of Allah swt. He still provides for them because he is Merciful and their Lord of course.

As for those who repent and desist in their bad actions gain the mercy of Allah.

So simply put it all depends on every man and woman - do they wish to be loved by God? or do they wish to recieve the anger of God?

What we choose with our free wills will dictate the outcome :D

oh yes and additionally we must never forget - Those who love evil in this world and do it will be rewarded with Evil so they have noone to blame but themselves in the hereafter

And vice versa for those who love good and do good will be rewarded with good :D

Plus it dosent matter if you mess up while trying to do good - because Allah swt judges every action on intentions :D

POBook

12-30-2005, 05:12 AM

Salam Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thank you for your response. First, in order to address my quote concerning the corruption of scripture, you used a verse of scripture from Jeremiah. Why would Jeremiah, a scriptural writing, be right and the rest of scripture corrupt? Surely if Jeremiah is correct and not corrupt, then all of scripture is correct and not corrupt?

Second, to say that GOD sees two types of sins, I believe is a dishonor to Him. The logic behind that is to say we can decide what is wrong and right. It is also to say that a Righteous, Holy, and Just God is OK with certain sins and not with other sins.

If you have made a quote from the Bible, you have given it authority and I assume you are willing to consider many other verses from the Bible?

With sincerity --- Wayne, a devout follower of Jesus

Ansar Al-'Adl

12-30-2005, 05:51 AM

Originally Posted by POBook

Thank you for your response. First, in order to address my quote concerning the corruption of scripture, you used a verse of scripture from Jeremiah. Why would Jeremiah, a scriptural writing, be right and the rest of scripture corrupt? Surely if Jeremiah is correct and not corrupt, then all of scripture is correct and not corrupt?

The point in quoting Jeremiah is to prove that even according to the Bible itself, it is not perfectly preserved. As far as the corruption of the Bible goes, I explained in another thread that although Muslims believe that the Bible has been tampered with, this does not mean that it would be changed entirely so that not even a single word remained from the original scripture. The Bible contains both truth and falsehood; we use the Qur'an as the criterion in assessing which is which. Please see:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rs-market.html

Second, to say that GOD sees two types of sins, I believe is a dishonor to Him.

Why?

The logic behind that is to say we can decide what is wrong and right.

Not at all.

It is also to say that a Righteous, Holy, and Just God is OK with certain sins and not with other sins.

No, the sins are not simply OK, but if someone sincerely repents, then God considers their good intentions and sincere desire to come back to Him, and in His infinite justice and mercy He may forgive them.

With sincerity --- Wayne, a devout follower of Jesus

I'm glad you consider yourself a devout follower of Jesus. I am also a devout follower of Jesus and a devout worshipper of the One God who created everything.

Regards

POBook

12-30-2005, 06:10 AM

Two types of sin are a dishonor to GOD because it suggests their are good sins and bad sins; big sins and little sins. A Holy, Righteous GOD does not measure and differentiate sins. Sin is sin is sin. Either He loves all sin or He hates all sin.

"The Bible contains both truth and falsehood." Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father (GOD) except through me." Is this truth or falsehood?

I have to leave. When I get back, I hope we can continue wsith this discussion. Thanks for your time!

Wayne

akulion

12-30-2005, 12:20 PM

"The Bible contains both truth and falsehood." Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father (GOD) except through me." Is this truth or falsehood?

This is the truth
And it is also true when applied to ALL prophets.
Let me explain how....

Musa (Moses) (as) was given a revelation.
Now if Pharoh had taken those revelation and said "follow me I will lead you to God", and then gone on to intrepret the scriptures in HIS way - the people would have been misguided. Therefore Moses was the ONLY way and no one would get to the Father (God) during his times except through him.

Same applies to Jesus(as) he brought a message and if people would not have followed him but instead followed someone who was 'posing' as a prophet of God they would have been misguided.

And finally we come to Mohammed (sa) he too was the way and the only way for the people! And still is since he was the last Prophet. If people follow the interpretations of other 'fake prophets' or people who intrepret the Quran diferently from the way the Prophet explained it - they will go astray!

So to each nation of each prophet - The Prophet was the ONLY way to get to God.

Because EACH and every Prophet had a "sunnah" or "prescribed way of life according tot he Example they set for people" and so people followed in their footsteps.

As for the Sin - ALL actions are judged on intention! So a seemilgly small sin could displease God enormously! Or a seemilngly huge sin could actually not displease God at all! How?

Well lets take an example:
A man sets out to do evil deed by stealing - but his intentions were to steal from someone and thus in turn cause his family to starve and die (because he hated them). He stole from them...

In the eyes of Human his sin was smaller than that of Murder but no human knew his evil intentions towards wanting the mans family dead! But Allah knew!

Second Example: A man sets out on a walk one day. He sees a kid crossing the street and a car coming at speed from the other end. He jumps to save the boy but instead accidentally knocks over an old lady who dies in front of the car! The people around him only saw so much so that they testify "He pushed her in front of the car on purpose" He is convicted of Murder and cannot argue his case otherwise!

Now no one knew he was innocent but Allah knew!

So you see who is sinful and who is pure is not known to us - because only Allah swt knows what happens in the hearts and minds of mankind!

So be assured that those deserving of punishment - who loved corruption and who were arrogant and rebellious will be the ones punished!

Those deserving of mercy will be granted mercy - those who loved good and tried to do good :D

So you see humanity cannot possibly know and judge like God because we are so little!

Ansar Al-'Adl

12-30-2005, 11:43 PM

Sin is sin is sin. Either He loves all sin or He hates all sin.

He hates all sins; I never claimed otherwise. Yet He still has the right to forgive someone's sins if He finds them deserving of His forgiveness. God has informed us in the Qur'an that seeking forgiveness from God for one's sins is a beautiful act in the sight of God and He loves to forgive. When one seeks forgiveness they are no longer the same as the unrepentant sinner.

Originally Posted by POBook

Two types of sin are a dishonor to GOD because it suggests their are good sins and bad sins;

I never said this.

big sins and little sins. A Holy, Righteous GOD does not measure and differentiate sins.

Is stealing a candy bar equal to committing mass genocide? Should a righteous God not differentiate between the two?

"The Bible contains both truth and falsehood." Jesus said in John 14:6, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father (GOD) except through me." Is this truth or falsehood?

Before we decide whether this is truth or falsehood, we have to decide what this really means, right? Br. Akulion has given a nice explanation and I also like the explanation of Dr. Ali Ataie:

John 14:6 – I am the way, the truth, and the life...
...This verse (John 14:6) reads in its entirety: “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” Interestingly, we as Muslims should not take any exception to this verse. Belief in Jesus as a true Prophet, Messenger, and Messiah is an article of Islamic faith. Denial of this constitutes kufr, or unbelief. We can surely imagine Moses mimicking these very words as he descended Sinai only to find his “rebellious” and “stiff-necked” community worshipping a golden calf. Moses was the way, the truth, and the life, while the calf was a false way, a false truth, and a false life.

Let’s examine the verse in its historical context. The Children of Israel at the time of Jesus were expecting the coming of three distinct luminaries, the second of which was Ha Mashiakh, or the “Anointed One” (See Chapter 6 for a complete explanation of Jewish prophetic expectations). When Jesus arrives on the scene he finds the Jews clinging onto a myriad of customs and traditions that had nothing to do with the true teachings of the Torah as revealed through Moses (upon whom be peace). When the Gospel revelations attempted to abrogate many of these invented traditions, the Jews became filled with hatred for the nature of Jesus’ teachings. The son of Mary lashes out: “Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell” (Matthew 23:33)?; “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.[Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel” (Matthew 23:23-24).

On another occasion he tells the self-righteous Jews: “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me” (John 14:6). He is essentially saying: “Your little scruples and customs will not save you from damnation. The Anointed of God is here before you and yet you reject him! How do you expect to attain salvation?” Let me draw an analogy that you can easily grasp: When the Prophet Muhammad began admonishing the Quraysh of Mecca, he found success with great difficulty because the hearts and minds of the people were very much fixated on their idols of wood and stone. The Quraysh certainly believed in Allah, the most High God as they called Him, but felt that He was too holy to be approached without the means of intermediaries. Obviously believing in the messengership of Muhammad is the defining characteristic of a Muslim, and the very fact that the Quraysh felt that they didn’t need his guidance demonstrated their contentment with the religion of their Pagan fathers. Therefore, despite their belief in Allah, can any of the Quraysh expect to enter Heaven now that God’s Holy Prophet is among them in their very midst, and they reject him? Never!

The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be “the truth,” or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. “He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture,” he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, meaning Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: “Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful” (Qur’an 9:128). The words that Allah has used in this verse to describe the character of His Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth. He is not, however, “the Creator,” or “the Giver of Life and Death.” These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things. (Ataie, In Defense of Islam, pp. 15-18).

Even if we do accept this ambiguous statement attributed to Jesus as true, it becomes very clear that it doesn't change anything and it certainly doesn't establish his divinity as Christians would like us to believe.

Regards

Tasneem

12-30-2005, 11:53 PM

Prophet Muhammed S.A.W.S
will interceed for some muslims inshallah
Every Prophet gets a dua that will be answered i.e it is accepted they get a wish.The prophet Muhammed will make his wish i.e dua on the day or judgement inshallah.He will interced for his Ummah.He will ask Allah to save his Ummah i.e followers from Hell inshallah.

And Allah knows best.

SaLaMz

Syed Hussain

12-31-2005, 01:36 AM

ASW
the prophet Muhammad (saw) will interceed on behalf of mankind to allow the day of reckoning to start as the whole of mankind whilst drowning in their own sweat will want the day of judgement to start. the prophet will go to the throne of allah and prostrate and allah will say 'interceed and i shall accept, ask me what you want and i shall grant you'. and then when allah accepts the intercession of the prophet the day of judgement shall start.
mankind will first go to adam (as) to interceed on their behalf he will say 'i have commited a sin, i ate the forbidden fruit, Allah willl be angry upon me i cannot interceed on your behalf. go, go to ibrahim'. and then the whole of mankind will go to Ibrahim (as) and ask him to interceed on their behalf. he will say 'i lied when i was in the world.' here the prophet is referring to the story when he broke all the small idols with an axe and placed the axe on the big idol to prove the point that if the idol cant move how can he do it. he, the prophet referred this as a lie whilst it was a very good example. another so called lie he told was that he called his wife his sister, he called his wife his sister in islam as at that time the prophet and his wife hajar where the muslims present at that time. he called his wife his sister in islam to save her from the pharoah as he wanted to commit sin with her. the prophet will then say 'go to the prophet musa'. so then mankind will go to musa (as) but musa (as) will say 'nafsi, nafsi. myself, myself' all the prophets are concerned with saving themselves as they will all say 'myself'. the prophet musa (as) felt guilty because he ACCIDENTLY killed a man with one blow. at that time the disbeliever was in a fight with a muslim but because the prophet was so strong and to protect the muslim he gave him one blow, due to his strength the disbeliever died. therefore here the prophet called this murder. so then the whole of mankind will go to the prophet Muhammed (saw) for him to interceed and the prophet will say 'i shall interceed on behalf of my ummah, my nation' and then he shall interceed on our behalf. then the day of judgement shall start
ASW

POBook

01-01-2006, 06:38 PM

Selam Akulion,

I am back in town. Thank you for your response. I appreciate your consideration of Jesus' statement, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes the the Father (GOD) except through me" (John 14:6). I understand what you meant when you said this statement was truth in relation to all prophets. You related "I am the Way" to Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. How do you understand "I am the Truth"; "I am the Life", and "no one comes to the Father (GOD) except through Me"?

Concerning the issue of man and sin. When I talk about sin, I do not talk about big sin or small sin. I do not talk about good sin or bad sin. I do ot talk about sin that may be intentional or unintentional. I do not talk about contrasts in sin or comparison in sin. When I talk about sin, I talk about the natural human nature of all people. I natural tendency is to sin. We have to work very hard to be good, righteous people, and even then we fail--according to our Holy GOD's standard. When we look at the world around us, it is quite scary in many ways. The sinful human nature of mankind is slowly resulting in his own deterioration. What good do we have to offer a highly righteous GOD and Creator? We may offer many good things on one hand, but on the other, we offer many bad things as well. Think from your heart---truly from your heart, Akulion---if judgement day came today and you suddenly found yourself standing before GOD, how much confidence do you have that He will open the door to heaven for you?

POBook

01-01-2006, 06:43 PM

Selam Jihad_spun,

Thank you for your reply. How confident are you that on Judgment day, GOD who knows best, will tell you to enter heaven and not send you to hell? Are you strong enough to stand before GOD, not knowing where HE may send you, and without a problem, go to hell if that is where He decides to send you? Would you not rather stand before ALLAH on Judgment day without any doubt as to where you will spend eternity?

POBook

01-01-2006, 06:48 PM

Selam Syed Hussain,

Thank you for your feedback. Are you aware that in the Hadith, only Jesus is considered to be without sin? All other prophets, including Muhammad, are known to have committed sin. What gives someone who has sinned, the right to intercede before GOD, on behalf of someone else who has sinned? My understanding of an intercessor, is that he must be pure and blameless with no shame.

akulion

01-01-2006, 08:31 PM

walikum salam POBook

The way: I explained that the prophet's interpretation is the only way

The Truth: The prophets were the embodiment of Gods word that is why they were the truth - in the Quran it specifically explains that ALL prophets are absolved of ANY blame because they never did of their own except what was told to them , so even the 'mistakes' they seemingly made were part of the 'lesson' God was teaching people.

The Life: ALL The prophets of God were the life because following them led to eternal life in heaven. Disobeying them and fighting them meant no share in the hereafter at all! In the Quran Allah swt time and time emphasises the fact that those who obey the Prophet obey Allah but that dosent mean that the Prophet IS Allah - no it is merely meaning that by following the Prophet one is going to Allah and in turn going to Life (eternal)

----------

Concerning mans sinful nature:

All of life is a trial - and the point of life is not to gain salvation - it is to worship and please God the best we can. And honestly I know Allah swt is merciful so I dont worry with regards to heaven or hell becasue the Promise of Allah swt will come to pass irrespective of anything: That those who believed will be granted paradise. Ofcourse if I believe and then I am involved in sinful activities all my life then I asked for punishment myself.

Lets take this example: I am a Muslim but lets say I murder people....innocent people, kids, ladies, old men and so on and so forth

Will I be in heaven or hell ?
Ofcourse I will have to pay for my crimes! That is part of the justice of God...as for those who I killed all I did for them was have them granted the mercy of Allah when on the day of judgement he wil give my good deeds to them in recompnse. If they are disbelievers they may even be forgiven and granted paradise on account of my arrogance and wrong doing!

But what about in Christianity? If you believe in Jesus and kill innocent people, will you still be going to heaven?
Wont there be any justice with those murdered and the one who commited the murder?

POBook

01-02-2006, 12:09 PM

Salam Akulion,

Once again, thank you for your response. I think too often, Christians and Muslims become enemies. I appreciate your willingness to discuss. To me, we may have different religious beliefs, but we can still discuss and dialogue these with respect for one another. An open mind is essential to progress.

Concerning John 14:6:

"I am the Way....": Did Jesus say, "Former prophets/current prophets/future prophets/all prophets are the Way..." or did Jesus say, "I am the Way..."?

Concerning man’s sinful nature:

“All of life is a trial - and the point of life is not to gain salvation - it is to worship and please God the best we can.” What will GOD think if the “best we can” does not meet His standard of Holiness and Righteousness?

“Of course I will have to pay for my crimes! That is part of the justice of God…”
Let me ask you this Akulion: If you murdered someone but came to a true realization of your sin and you earnestly and honestly repented of your sin before GOD, asking Him to forgive you, would He still send you to hell to pay for your crimes?

“But what about in Christianity? If you believe in Jesus and kill innocent people, will you still be going to heaven?
Won’t there be any justice with those murdered and the one who committed the murder?”
First let me say thank you for asking me about how I believe. I like to share with people what I believe, but I do not want to impose on them what I believe. Second, you may have noticed that I call myself a person of the Book. Yes, I am a Christian, but many people misunderstand true Christianity. Many people consider themselves to be Christians, but do not follow Jesus and do not pattern their lives after the life of Jesus. Real Christianity is utmost and total devotion to Jesus Christ. Many people kill in the name of Christianity. This is NOT true Christianity. Jesus said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” (Matthew 5:44). True Christianity, Akulion, is more than simply believing in Jesus. Satan believes in Jesus; The demons believe in Jesus; many people all over the world believe in Jesus. Many people who believe in Jesus, also kill innocent people. True Christians—what we call “born again” believers (John 3)—will not kill others and will not seek retribution. As a true born-again believer in Jesus Christ, I will not go to heaven based upon how righteous I can be. I will go to heaven based on His GRACE and His LOVE for me. Eternal life in heaven is not about what I can do for GOD but about what He has done for me.

I hope you follow what I am saying. Thanks again for your time and interest in dialogue.

POBook

01-02-2006, 12:26 PM

Salam Ansar-Al'Adl

"...to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.” Thank you for such a detailed response. How or why would Allah be kind and merciful to the believers? Surely we cannot be merciful to people who do what is right--to people who believe. By nature, isn't mercy an act of love given to the enemy; the sinner; the unbeliever?

Thank you again for your time and your response.

- Qatada -

01-02-2006, 03:31 PM

Hey.

Mercy is something you give to a person when you know for a fact that the person is prone to error, but even if they are going to err - they feel they need to ask for forgiveness for their mistakes. Allah Almighty knows the striving the believer is going through - hence Allah the Most Merciful is prepared to forgive that person.

However, referring to the non-believer, Allah Almighty is prepared to forgive that person if that person turns to Allah, if the person wants to believe. But why should Allah forgive a person who rejects Allah? why should Allah give paradise to someone who rejects the one who created him?

Would you pay your employee if he rejected that you were the boss? If that employee never even listened to the orders you placed on that employee - would you still pay him?

Allah the Most Just even does this, and gives the person their reward justly in this life, even if they reject God. But that person will get the punishment for their own crimes they have commited in this life, because they rejected the Almighty and thought they could get away with it.

- Qatada -

01-02-2006, 03:49 PM

What you asked bro syed,and sis jihad_spun, i dont understand where you find that our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sinful.

We believe that all prophets are sinless no matter what; this includes Moses, Jesus, Muhammad etc. (peace be upon them all and their beloved families.) But prophets do make mistakes, as this is a way of showing an example between right and wrong.

We even have alot of authentic hadith which show that our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is sinless;

Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you.Allah has forgiven your past and future sins." So Allah's Apostle became angry and it was apparent on his face. He said, "I am the most Allah fearing, and know Allah better than all of you do."

(sahih bukhari v1/2-19)

So this hadith has two points which we can relate to your question;

1) Our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sinless.

2) Even the prophets of Allah were afraid of the day of judgement because they knew how severe it would be. Everyone would be asked about what they did in their lives and why they did that.

Therefore everyone fears the day of judgement because they will be asked about what they did, why they did it and like you say; "God is holy, God is just.." and therefore God will reward the ones that do good, and will punish the evil doers for their bad acts equally.

This is why we fear the day of judgement, because this way we will perform as less bad acts, and do as much good acts as we can in this world.

This is why Allah Almighty says in the qur'an.

Man shall on that day be informed of what he sent before and (what he) put off. (75:13)

Nay! man is evidence against himself, (75:14)

Peace.

POBook

01-02-2006, 05:36 PM

Salam Fi_Sabilillah,

Thank you for your response. I hope I did not come accross harshly. I sincerely desire to respect you as a Muslim. May I say that Moses did sin against God and was therefore not allowed to go into the promised land:

"But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 'Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them'" (Torah, Book 4 chapter 20:12).

Muhammad also sinned. The Qu'ran says, "Patiently, then, persevere: for the promise of Allah is true: and ask forgiveness for thy fault, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord in the evening and the morning." (Sura 40:55). The Qu'ran also says, "So know (O Muhammad) that there is no Allah save Allah, and ask forgiveness for thy sin and for believing men and believing women. Allah knoweth (both) your place of turmoil and your place of rest." Sura 47:19

The Hadith says, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying." By Allah! I ask for forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day." Volume 8, Book 75, Number 319, Narrated Abu Huraira. People who do not sin, do not need to repent.

We know that Jesus did not sin. In the gospel of Luke 4:1-13, Jesus was severely tempted by Satan to sin. Yet He did not sin and succumb to the tempatation of Satan.

Concerning the judgement day, you said, "Therefore everyone fears the day of judgement..." Why fear the day of judgment? If you do the best you can to live a righteous life and you stand before a merciful GOD, why fear the day of judgement? What is a merciful GOD going to do to you?

With sincerity and prayer --- POBook

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-02-2006, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

Salam Ansar-Al'Adl

"...to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.” Thank you for such a detailed response.

You're most welcome.

How or why would Allah be kind and merciful to the believers? Surely we cannot be merciful to people who do what is right--to people who believe. By nature, isn't mercy an act of love given to the enemy; the sinner; the unbeliever?

The arabic word rahmat, is not exactly like the english word mercy. The verse you quoted states that Allah is Rahîm with the believers. Basically, it means that God forgives the believers for their mistakes and aids them in their difficults, etc. The following quotes elaborate:

From the root r-h-m which has the following classical Arabic connotations:

to have tenderness, gentleness, kindness
to love
to have mercy, to have pity
to show favor and goodness
to have all that is required for beneficence

Rahîm is in the measure of fa'îl and denotes the idea of constant repetition and giving of a liberal reward to those who deserve it and seek it. The Manifestation of this attribute is in response to and is a result of the action of the human being. That is, Rahîm indicates that which is extremely and continuously loving and merciful, and who is the dispenser of grace and love as a result of our deeds and supplications, and the One in whom the attribute is constantly and [endlessly] repeated.

I hope this helps.

POBook

01-02-2006, 05:52 PM

Salam Fi-Sabilillah,

"Would you pay your employee if he rejected that you were the boss? If that employee never even listened to the orders you placed on that employee - would you still pay him?"

If you gave this employee what he deserved, not only would you refuse to pay him, you would probably fire him from the job. However, if you showed mercy to this employee, despite what he did and said, yes you would love him anyway; you would pay him. This is what mercy is all about--undeserving favor and love. To me, this is who GOD is. GOD is just--He must punish sin. Yet He is also merciful--he desires not to punish. How does He put justice and mercy together? As a born-again believer, this is where I discovered the freedom from fear of judgement; where I discovered hope; joy, and peace. GOD came to this earth and paid the penalty for my sins through His crucifixion on the cross. In His mighty power, he rose from the dead and gained all authority to forgive me. He Himself was the one I dishonered. In His love, justice and mercy, He punished Himself for my sin. He was both merciful and just at the same time. I could not do enough good to please God. I simply had to acknowledge my sinful nature and accept His forgiveness. What an awesome GOD I serve!

POBook

01-02-2006, 06:08 PM

Salam Ansar Al-'Adl,

Thank you again for your response.

"From the root r-h-m which has the following classical Arabic connotations:
to have tenderness, gentleness, kindness
to love
to have mercy, to have pity
to show favor and goodness
to have all that is required for beneficence

Rahîm is in the measure of fa'îl and denotes the idea of constant repetition and giving of a liberal reward to those who deserve it and seek it."

Part of this definition contains the principle of "pity". Pity is undeserving favor; undeserving kindness; undeserving tenderness and love; undeserving favor and goodness. How can pity or (mercy) be given to people who deserve it and seek it? True pity is given to people who do NOT deserve reward. For eg., if an employee steals money from a cash register, is caught, and needs to be fired from his job, pity expressed by the manager will not fire him from the job. Justice expressed by the manager will mean that he takes out his own wallet and reimburses the stolen money to the cash register. This manager was the one wronged. He payed the price for the crime commited against himself. This is justice and pity combined, is it not?

akulion

01-02-2006, 06:08 PM

salam alaikum

insha'Allah i will reply later - ive have high fever and a chest infection so im all woozy from the medicines right now so ill get back once my mind is workin again

akulion

01-02-2006, 11:06 PM

salam alaikum
ok im back - the fever seems to have dissapeared for now - nose is still flowing like a river and body aches continue but I can manage :D Alhamdolillah. Jazak Allah khair to the bros who sent me their duas they really worked :D

Concerning John 14:6:
"I am the Way....": Did Jesus say, "Former prophets/current prophets/future prophets/all prophets are the Way..." or did Jesus say, "I am the Way..."?

Yes each Prophet would make that clear that HE is the current way for the people and no other. Moses told the same thing to people in different words, as did Abrahsm and so did the other Prophets. Infact even the Prophet Mohammed(sa) made it very clear that whoever disobeys me has gone off the path - the Quran also makes that clear that he who disobeys the Prophet has disobeyed Allah. This was true about every Prophet.

Concerning man’s sinful nature:
“All of life is a trial - and the point of life is not to gain salvation - it is to worship and please God the best we can.” What will GOD think if the “best we can” does not meet His standard of Holiness and Righteousness?

As I mentioned earlier every action is judged on intention. Allah swt said "No deed big or small is rejected by me when done with sincerity" in another saying in Hadith The Prophet (sa), "2 men gave charity, one gave 1 dinar (money used in Arabia) and the other gave 1000 dinars. The Prophet said the 1 dinar of the man is more dear to Allah than the 1000 dinar of the other. So the companions asked why? The Prophet said, the man who gave 1 dinar gave all he had (he was a very very poor man) the man who gave 1000 dinar gave not even 1/3 of what he had (he was very very rich).
So you see the best we can do is best judged by God - he knows the intentions and the circumstances of everyone

Let me ask you this Akulion: If you murdered someone but came to a true realization of your sin and you earnestly and honestly repented of your sin before GOD, asking Him to forgive you, would He still send you to hell to pay for your crimes?

Sins done against people must be accounted for unless the person against whom the sins were done forgives. Allah swt in his justice has bound himself to his word that he will not forgive someone who does sins against others UNLESS those people forgive them first. So its not a matter of God 'cannot" but rather a matter of God "will not" - it serves justice in perfection.
Therefore if I was truly sorry , I would hand myself over to the authorities for the crime of murder and ask the family of the deceased for forgiveness. Under Islamic law the family would be given 3 choices:
1- they can forgive
2- they can ask for blood money
3- they can ask for me to be executed
Now its easy to say I am sorry - but its not so easy to stand up and face the consequences. Therefore justice must be done.
All that being said if it was a crime I did against myself then yes God would forgive me.

People often put the murderer in the frame of innocence very easily forgetting the agony of the murder victim's family and the crime done against the murdered - that is why justice will be done!

As a true born-again believer in Jesus Christ, I will not go to heaven based upon how righteous I can be. I will go to heaven based on His GRACE and His LOVE for me. Eternal life in heaven is not about what I can do for GOD but about what He has done for me.

Well that is where we differer in our beliefs. Best to my understanding you believe God is here to serve you. But in Islam we are here to serve God and please God and heaven can only be attained through the mercy of Allah by trying our best - in the end it dosent matter how good we did or what happend, what matters is that we tried and didnt give up!
It is easy to say "I believe in God and I love God" but when the whole life of a person is a living lie against the commandments of God then its not true belief or true love, its hipocracy.
Thats why in the Quran Allah swt says "True believers are those in whose actions are manifest the teachings of Islam"
That is why the more a person tries to please God by following Gods commandments, the more they are likely to recieve Gods Mercy.
After all think about it - a man says to his wife "I love you so much" but then he beats her in the night. Is this love or hipocracy?
Love and Belief are best demonstrated through actions - words are easy, only actions speak louder than words

Abu Zakariya

01-02-2006, 11:06 PM

This manager was the one wronged. He payed the price for the crime commited against himself. This is justice and pity combined, is it not?

Your telling me that justice is to punish someone that's innocent?
How can this be justice?

POBook

01-03-2006, 07:15 AM

Salam Abu Zakariya,

No, I am not saying that justice is to punish someone who is innocent. Justice is administering what must be administered. If you steal something and you are caught, you will have justice administered to you. This justice may be a fine or it may be imprisonment. Grace is the acceptance of punishment by someone who is innocent. If you saw the person steal something, and you saw that person arrested, and you were there when the judge administered the justice of two years in prison for stealing, and then YOU stepped up to the judge and told him you, as an innocent person, would serve the time of justice for the thief, you would then be showing GRACE toward the thief. The judge would then have to decide whether to be MERCIFUL to the thief or not. To be merciful toward the thief, the judge would allow you to pay the price of imprisonment on behalf of the thief.

The guilty person was not punished. He received MERCY. The innocent person was punished. JUSTICE was fulfilled. The innocent person's willingness to stand in the thief's place was GRACE.

Thank you again for your feedback. I hope this make's it more clear.

POBook

01-03-2006, 08:29 AM

Salam Alaikum,

I hope you are doing better. I realize that I may be repeating myself on some issues, particularly John 14:6. So one more time on this verse of Scripture. What if the prophets disagree in their teachings? Who is right? Who then is the truth? To you what did Jesus mean when He said, "I am the Truth; I am the Life"?

"As I mentioned earlier every action is judged on intention."
What happens if someone tries very hard not to steal but he ends up stealing. If he is caught, is the judge going to say, "Look, I know you tried very hard not steal but did anyway. But because you tried, you are free to go." I know this example sounds crazy. But most people do not want to do what's wrong in GOD's eyes, but because of the sinful nature, we do wrong. So, is GOD going to say, "Look, I know you tried hard not to sin, but you did anyway. But because you tried, you are free to go"?

The parable you shared about the 2 men giving charity is very similar to a parable Jesus told about rich Pharisees giving lots of money to make a name for themselves and a poor woman giving all she had with pure motives and intentions. Jesus she she gave much more than they did. These parables, I think, do not address the issues of justice and mercy as much as they address the issue of pure intentions of the heart.

"All that being said if it was a crime I did against myself then yes God would forgive me."

What would happen if it was a crime you committed against God?

"Best to my understanding you believe God is here to serve you."
GOD did more than simply serve me. GOD gave His life for me...for me to have Life...life to the full here on this earth and life for eternity when my body dies. Because I belong to GOD, He is not here to serve me. I have given my life to Him to serve Him. But, as a born-again believer, I am more than simply a servant of GOD. I am a child of GOD. He loved me enough to adopt me into His family. There is no gap between GOD and myself. Out of love for me, He holds me in His arms like a father holds and loves his own child. Does this mean I can treat GOD like children often treat their parents? NO! I want to honor God with every area of my life--with words, with thoughts, with motives, and with actions. But when I fail, GOD is not going to disown me. I am His child. He might need to discipline me...to teach me...but through His love for me, He will keep me.

I know we have different beliefs, so thank you for your willingness to dialogue in a respectful way. I hope I do the same.:)

Abu Zakariya

01-03-2006, 08:31 AM

POBook

You are setting limits to God.
If there is a sin where a person goes against the commands of God, it is up to Him wether He wants to punish that person or not.

I do not see the justice in punishing someone that doesn't deserve punishment.
You are basically saying that

1. God punished someone innocent (i.e. His son and also Himself, since both are one and the same)
2. God punished himself and died on the cross for the sins of the world (which is, mind you, a pagan concept. there was actually a god called Mithras that was born on the 25th of December, called the son of God, that reportedly died for the sins of the world. other deities that did the same were called "the lamb(s) of God")

If you ask me, this goes against reason.
It is not befitting for God to kill himself. It is not befitting for Him to die.

It is shocking to me that you keep talking about justice and then say that this, i.e. punishing someone innocent instead of the guilty one, is justice.
Killing someone innocent isn't justice.

So here we have to concepts.

The Christian: God can't just let the sinners slide. He has to punish their evil. But, in His grace, he punishes Himself instead and kills His son/Himself.

The Islamic: When a sinner repents, He is forgiven by the grace of God. No innocent person has to be killed for this to be possible.

POBook

01-03-2006, 01:20 PM

Salam Abu Zakariya

Thank you for your response.

If there is a sin where a person goes against the commands of God, it is up to Him wether He wants to punish that person or not.

I agree with you. GOD is totally Sovereign. But will GOD punish one person and not another for the same sin they may have committed with the same motives? Surely GOD is consistent by nature.

I do not see the justice in punishing someone that doesn't deserve punishment.

Once again, you are right in this. But, do you have the right to punish yourself, as much as you don't deserve punishment, for the wrong someone else may have committed against you? Us people sinned against GOD. Instead of punishing us for our sin, He took our punishment on Himself. He thus earned the right to forgive the people who sinned against Him. GOD is merciful. He is also just. To combine mercy and justice, GOD Himself paid the price for our sin. We can simply accept this or reject it.
You are basically saying that

It is not befitting for God to kill himself. It is not befitting for Him to die.

Once again, you are very right. It is not befitting for God to do this. However, He loves us sooo much, Abu Zakariya, that He was willing to leave His high place of Honor and come to this earth in the form of a humble servant and be willing to go through the pain, suffering, and shame that us people had earned through our sin. This was the greatest act of mercy and justice ever expressed by anyone. It was the greatest act of love. Would you be willing to die for your worst enemy?

Killing someone innocent isn't justice.

I agree with you. Killing and innocent person is not justice. Once again, however, if you personally are willing to pay the price for the wrong someone did to you, you have the right to do this.

The Christian: God can't just let the sinners slide. He has to punish their evil. But, in His grace, he punishes Himself instead and kills His son/Himself.

The Islamic: When a sinner repents, He is forgiven by the grace of God. No innocent person has to be killed for this to be possible.

We have to decide: Is GOD merciful:? ? Is GOD just:? ? Is He both:? ? If He is only merciful, then it is OK to sin and do things wrong. He is merciful so we will not be punished. If He is only just, then all of us will be punished because all of us have sinned against GOD, intentionally or unintentionally. If He is both merciful and just, how do we put these two characteristics together. For me, GOD fulfilled mercy and justice by coming to this earth and out of love for me, paid the price of death for my sin.

Thank you again for your dialogue. My desire is to respect you and your faith. I also want to share my faith in a respectful manner.

Abu Zakariya

01-03-2006, 06:30 PM

POBook

Thank you for the replies.
I admit, I didn't fully understand this concept before, but you explained it patiently and in a nice manner.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For instance:

Reading this makes me scared, almost.
I feel undeserving of being Gods slave, even. For Him to even create us, guide us, give us an opportunity to even pray to Him and follow His blessed path is such a mercy, that I can't even begin to describe.
For me to hear someone saying that God became a man, that He ate food, went to the bathroom, died, etc. is shocking. I don't mean to offend you, I swear to God I don't, but this is how I feel upon hearing these sort of things.

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (God) has begotten a son!
Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to the Most Beneficent.
But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent that He should beget a son.
There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto the Most Beneficent as a slave.
Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting.
And everyone of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection (without any helper, or protector or defender).
Verily, those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, the Most Beneficent will bestow love for them (in the hearts of the believers).
So We have made this (the Qur'ân) easy in your own tongue, only that you may give glad tidings to the pious and righteous persons, and warn with it the most quarrelsome people.

The above verse tells you how I feel upon hearing this.

I agree with you. Killing and innocent person is not justice. Once again, however, if you personally are willing to pay the price for the wrong someone did to you, you have the right to do this.

Don't I have the right to forgive?

Again, I fail to see the justice in punishing someone innocent.

Either you punish the one guilty of the crime, or you forgive him. You don't punish an innocent person.

No one laden with burdens can bear another's burden.

and if one heavily laden calls another to (bear) his load, nothing of it will be lifted

There's probably a difference when it comes to God rewarding an act within Islam and Christianty.
In islam, God will reward the one that intends to do good as if he performed the act itself. This isn't justice per se, is it? He didn't perform the good deed.
As for someone that actually does a good deed, he will be rewarded tenfold. This isn't justice either, really? It would be 100% just to reward the person in accordance with the deed, not 10 times as much.

This is because of God's mercy. His mercy pervails over His anger. If someone performs an evil deed, He is angry. However, his infinite mercy makes Him forgive the sinner that repents to God.

Again, I think we have to agree to disagree.

POBook

01-04-2006, 11:26 AM

Dear Abu Zakariya,

I say “Dear” because I want you to know that I love you. Please don’t get me wrong—I am married to a truly wonderful woman and I have two lovely daughters. You are dear to me because you are a Muslim and I can tell that you expressed yourself honestly and openly. I respect this very much.

“Again, I fail to see the justice in punishing someone innocent. Either you punish the one guilty of the crime, or you forgive him. You don't punish an innocent person.”

May I try to explain this again. I agree with you. There is no justice in punishing an innocent person for a guilty person’s crimes. We have no right to punish an innocent person for a guilty person’s crimes. But if YOU establish a law that has certain consequences in the failure of keeping that law, and somebody else breaks the law YOU established, do YOU not have the right and choice to fulfill the consequences of YOUR law that somebody else broke? Do YOU not have the right to pay the price for what someone did to YOU. You cannot get someone else to pay the price for a law you made that another person broke. But YOU have the right and the choice to pay the price on behalf of the guilty person who broke YOUR law. Please keep this in mind for now.

I understand that Islam has a major problem when it comes to referring to Jesus as the “Son of God”. I really want to respect your concern over this. Please allow me, however, to explain the meaning of this. GOD did not have a son in the sense that women and men produce a children. GOD is Spirit. As GOD looked down on the human race, He saw a part of His creation filled with evil and sin. As the Righteous and Holy GOD, He could have punished us immediately for our sin. However, how could He punish a people He loved? As I look at the picture you have of that wonderful little boy, I assume is your son, I wonder to myself how we can punish children like this if they do wrong? Yet we punish and discipline those we truly love—for what is right and what is to their own benefit in the long run. You see, Abu Zakariya, GOD truly loves us…more than anyone can imagine or understand. While He loves us, He is also Righteous, Pure, and Holy. As He looked down on these people who had sinned against Him, He understood His own Sovereignty and Righteousness. These people needed to be punished for their sin. At the same time, how was he going to give punishment to these people He truly loved? There was only one way to fulfill His justice and His mercy. It is like He said, “I will go down there and pay the price for their sin”. God had no right to punish anyone else for sins we had committed against Him. But he did have the right and the choice to take our punishment on Himself so that we did not have to face the punishment. This was a mighty act of love for us; A mighty act of grace on His part. That’s what so many people cannot fathom—How and why would the Mighty, Holy, and Righteous Creator of this Universe come to this earth, dwell among us and go through the pain and suffering of crucifixion. How did He do it? He did it by coming to this world in the form of a perfect human being—Jesus Christ. Why did He do it? He did it because He loves us…He truly loves us.

It’s like a judge, Abu Zakariya, who hands out a sentence to a criminal. Once the sentence is handed out, the judge, no one else, steps down from his bench and comes to the criminal and takes the sentence away, telling the criminal he will serve this sentence. Is this not justice and mercy; love and grace? What would you think if a judge handed you a prison sentence and the judge then came to you and told you that because he loves you, he will serve the sentence on your behalf? Either you could simply humble yourself and accept his offer, or in pride you could reject his offer.

I hope this helps you understand better what we believe as Christians. GOD is GOD and He is a GOD of love who found a way to express His love toward His people who had sinned against Him. Yes, GOD is also Mercy. But He is also Justice. To ignore justice, is to say that it is OK to sin and that GOD does not mind sin. The opposite of mercy is justice. If God is Merciful, which He is, then he must be Just, which He is. Either He is both or He is none. He cannot be one without the other.

Again, I desire to respect you. So I hope I share with you my faith and belief in a respectful way.

Peace to you:)

Ansar Al-'Adl

01-04-2006, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by POBook

Part of this definition contains the principle of "pity".

That is related to God's rahmat to disbelievers. But for believers it includes the other things mentioned.

Regards

Abu Zakariya

01-05-2006, 12:10 AM

Dear POBook

I appreciate your posts. I really do. You are respectful and patient and I thank you for that. You have also opened my eyes and explained this issue to me so I can understand it simply.
The problem is that I can't agree.
I think I have explained my position on this. I don't even dare to think of God, the Perfect, in a situation like that; suffering, eating food, dying etc.
It goes against my nature, it's as simple as that.
Again, this is what I feel upon hearing those things:

Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.
Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to the Most Beneficent.

It goes against my nature to believe that God had begotten a son (because that is something that we humans do, God is above these things), not to mention things like eating, visiting the bathroom and dying.
From what I understand also, Jesus wasn't created according to Christiand belief, he was begotten.

But if YOU establish a law that has certain consequences in the failure of keeping that law, and somebody else breaks the law YOU established, do YOU not have the right and choice to fulfill the consequences of YOUR law that somebody else broke?

Well, according to islam, there are consequences, but not the same as in the Christian belief. The consequences are as follows: someone that sins is punished, unless he/she repents.

Again, this along with the islamic belief that God is generous when it comes to rewarding His servants (so if someone performs one good deed, he isn't rewarded in accordance with the deed, he is rewarded even more) isn't necesseraly just, is it? But this is God's mercy.

I don't see why the consequence of sin has to be punishment, period. I find it more in accordance with my nature that God forgives instead of punishing Himself in someones place.

Again, I think we have to agree to disagree. We both understand each other (I think), but we can't seem to settle on this issue.
But here comes the great thing with living in a free society. We may keep our beliefs and respect each other despite our differences.

By the way, the little kid on the pic isn't my child, hehe. I'm pretty much a kid myself (I'm 16). It was just a cute picture I found and had to share with others. It was to cute not too. =)

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