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elesteraci
12-29-2005, 09:05 AM
ALLAHUAKBAR

http://www.harunyahya.com/miracles_of_the_quran_01.php
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Abu Omar
12-31-2005, 08:31 PM
:salamext:

If I make take the moment to ask something regarding these scientific miracles stuff.

I've seen many sincere brothers and sisters engaged in Dawah to refer to "the scientific miracles in the Quran and the Sunnah". And even those who claim to follow the Salaf (such as http://www.allaahuakbar.net) use them in their Dawah, while the interpretations of the verses to get them conform with science often (or almost always) contradict the understanding of the Salaf. One needs only to compare their interpretations with the interpretations stated in Tafsir ibn Kathir to see what I mean. I'll take some examples insha'Allaah:

And indeed We created man out of an extract of clay. Thereafter We made him as a Nutfah in a safe lodging. Then We made the Nutfah into a clot, then We made the clot into a little lump of flesh, then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allâh, the Best of creators. - 23:12-14

These verses refer to the creation of man in the womb as are prehaps the most used ones. According to the scientific interpretation, the nutfah is the mix of the male's and the female's discharges, the clot (alaqa) is "something which clings" and then the it states that the bones are created inside the embryo, and then the clothing with flesh refers to that the muscles wrap around the bones. The Mudghah means "chewed lump of flesh" and refers to the somites.

While this interpretation isn't totally wrong, it is far from correct. It is indeed correct that nutfah is the mix of male and female discharge, the interpretation of alaqa is not so. According to what is alluded in Tafsir ibn Kathir, alaqa means "a clot of blood", this was also the answer I got from a brother who knows Arabic. In Tafsir ibn Kathir we are told that alaqa is "a red elongated clot" and that Ikrimah (raa) said regarding it "This is blood". The Mudghah stage isn't described as a "chewed lump" but as a piece of flesh

Regarding the other stages, we are told the following:

then We made out of that little lump of flesh bones, meaning, `We gave it shape, with a head, two arms and two legs, with its bones, nerves and veins.'

then We clothed the bones with flesh, meaning, `We gave it something to cover it and strengthen it.'

This can be found here: http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=23&tid=34787

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? - 21:30

According to the modern interpretation, this refers to the Big Bang. But this is not exactly what a Hadith tells us:

"Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated from his father from `Ikrimah that Ibn `Abbas was asked; "Did the night come first or the day'' He said, "Do you think that when the heavens and the earth were joined together, there was anything between them except darkness Thus you may know that the night came before the day. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Umar said that a man came to him and questioned him about when the heavens and earth were joined together then they were parted. He said, "Go to that old man (Shaykh) and ask him, then come and tell me what he says to you.'' So he went to Ibn `Abbas and asked him. Ibn `Abbas said: "Yes, the heavens were joined together and it did not rain, and the earth was joined together and nothing grew. When living beings were created to populate the earth, rain came forth from the heavens and vegetation came forth from the earth.'' The man went back to Ibn `Umar and told him what had been said. Ibn `Umar said, "Now I know that Ibn `Abbas has been given knowledge of the Qur'an. He has spoken the truth, and this is how it was.'' Ibn `Umar said: "I did not like the daring attitude of Ibn `Abbas in his Tafsir of the Qur'an, but now I know that he has been given knowledge of the Qur'an.'' Sa`id bin Jubayr said: "The heavens and the earth were attached to one another, then when the heavens were raised up, the earth became separate from them, and this is their parting which was mentioned by Allah in His Book.'' Al-Hasan and Qatadah said, "They were joined together, then they were separated by this air.''"

It looks like the verse refers to when the heavens and the earth were already created, not the beginning of the creation. This Hadith is in Tafsir ibn Kathir.

So this day We shall deliver your (dead) body that you may be a sign to those who come after you! And verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Ayât. - 10:92

According to the modernist interpretation, this refers to the mummy of Merneptah, which most likely was the Firawn at the time of Musa (aleyhi salaam). This seems to have no support in the classical Tafsirs. According to ibn Abbas (raa), this verse refers to that Firawn's body was placed on a high place so that Bani Israil could confirm without any doubt that he really died.

Also, the kuffar embryologists claim that these stages pass over in a few days, but according to a well-known Hadith narrated in sahih al-Bukhaari, Sahih Muslim and which are in an-Nawawi's 40 Ahadith collection states that each stage is for 40 days.

And, what would the Western scientists appealed to say about the Hadith about the fly with a disease in one wing and a cure in another?

This is in gist what I want to highlight, there exist more examples of new interpretations. So my questions is, how can Salafis propagate these interpretations and still claim to follow as-Salaf as-Salih? And how can the same people refer to the Tafsirs in some matters while totally ignore them in others?

Since there seems to be people here who follow as-Salaf as-salih, the pure path of Ahl as-Sunnah wal Jama'aah, and still argue for the scientific interpretations, I now take the fitting (?) moment to ask how you get it all around.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
12-31-2005, 09:03 PM
:sl: bro Abu Omar,
I don't have time to comment on everything you posted, but I'll just give a general comment on methodology and then link you to articles which answer everything else you mentioned. It is necessary to refer to the Salaf for understanding everything related to the Sharî'ah of Islam, since their understanding was the correct understanding. This relates to beliefs and legal rulings, etc. However, the mutashabihaat verses of the Qur'an that describe the universe are not in the same category. There is no reason why we should restrict ourselves to the understanding from the 7th century in this matter.

Also, it should be noted that not all narrations found in classical tafsirs are automatically authentic. There are many statements found in Tafsir at-Tabari and a few in Ibn Kathir which are attributed to Sahaba, yet are not authentic.

As for the embryological descriptions in the Qur'an, please refer here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...iarismGreek/8/

As for the verse 21:30 please refer to this article where I interpreted the verse to refer to the differentiation of the earth and its atmosphere, which is in concordance with the explanations found in classical tafsirs. Also this article.

As for the body of Pharoah, please refer to this in-depth analysis:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...Pharoahs_Fate/

Other articles:
http://islamtoday.com/show_quest_sec...1&sub_cat_id=3
http://islamtoday.com/discover_islam...&sub_cat_id=42

Hadith of the Fly

I hope this helps.
:w:
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Abu Zakariya
12-31-2005, 09:11 PM
I'd just like to mention a few things.

Remember that the Prophet salallahu 'alayhi wa sallam said that he has been given words that are rich in meaning.
So even though the interpretation by the salaf regarding what 'alaqah, nutfah, mudghah etc. mean doesn't seem to totally go hand in hand with the modern interpretations, the other meanings are still there, and the harmony with modern embriology is uncanny.

Now, regarding the issue of the hadith found in an-Nawawis 40 hadith, you have to remember that there are various interpretations regarding that hadith.
Read this insha'Allah:

In this case, the oversight may substantially change the meaning of the hadith.

With this word (nutfah) missing, the hadith can be understood in the following manner: “Surely, each of you is brought together in his mother’s abdomen for forty days. It is then a clinging object during that same period. Then it is a lump looking like it has been chewed during the same period.” Hence, all of these stages take place in the first forty days. This way of understanding the hadith is not only consistent with what is considered today “scientific fact” but, more importantly, it is exactly consistent with other narrations related to this topic.

(Note that there are some narrations that explicitly state that these three stages, as well as the next, do take forty days each. However, weak narrations cannot be used as evidence and are, therefore, irrelevant…)

The vast majority of scholars and commentators of hadith understand this hadith to mean that the three stages of the fetus take place over a period of one hundred and twenty days. This leads them to the conclusion that the soul is breathed into the womb after this period…

A problem with this interpretation is that one has to do some intricate reasoning to make it conform with other narrations on this topic... [Zarabozo, Commentary on the Forty Hadith of al-Nawawi (p. 390)]
There is more info here:
http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...main_cat_id=31

So, the ahadith mentioning the 40 day-period could be interpreted to mean that all of these different stages occur during these first 40 days.

As for the hadith mentioning the fly and it's wings, please read this:

http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...main_cat_id=31

http://www.understand-islam.net/pafi...ion=file&id=49

And as for the hadith that allegedly refer to the Big Bang, there is a lot of info about the verses pertaining to the creation of the universe at these links:

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal..._or_the_Earth/

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal..._for_Creation/

Maybe Ansar al-'Adl can shed more light on this insha'Allah.

I have got a lot of answers reading these fatawa:

http://www.islamtoday.net/english/sh...1&sub_cat_id=0

I have also written to them and asked a few questions, so that site is great masha'Allah. They usually answer back within a day or two.


EDIT: Ansar al-'Adl beat me to it, hehe
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Abu Zakariya
12-31-2005, 09:24 PM
You mentioned that a few narrations in Tafsir ibn Kathir aren't authentic, but isn't it so that in the case of the abridged version (found at tafsir.com), the unauthentic ahadith are sorted out?
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Abu Omar
12-31-2005, 10:14 PM
Masha'Allaah, what you write sounds great! Although I must again ask what the source for the methodology described by Ansar al-'Adl is. Although it sounds logical, I cannot solely rely on what appears logical to me. Also I remembered I talked with another brother (not the one who told about alaqa) on the issue and he said that the Quran and Sunnah don't change and that today's knowers laugh at yesterday's knowers and that if science contradicts the Quran and the Sunnah one should plainly stick to the former ones as understood by the Salaf. Also, according to the methodology, where is the border drawn? I.e do we go 100% for the Prophet's (sall'Allaahu aleyhi wa sallam) explanations for such verses but not 100% for the Sahabah's explanations? Or is the border drawn at Tabieen or where?

Yes the narration regarding comprehensive words is indeed true. It is in Sahih Muslim. Although I've no clue if this Hadith applies to these words in the Quran (it feels like there are very much speculation involved when ordinary people interprent these things), it is possible that it does.

Regarding Firawn's body, although I'm usually sceptical to Bucaille, I think he argued very convincingly that Merneptah was indeed the Firawn at the time of Musa (aleyhi salaam), when kept in mind that he uses OT and Egyptology to support his theory. But the fact remains that the history of ancient Egypt is scarce and that we never will be 100% sure in Dunya who the Firawn of that time really was.

However, the matter is if the verse at all refers to any mummy, found or unfound, or if it simply refers to that his body wa placed on a high place so that Bani Israil could confirm without any doubt that he really died.

Hope my questions aren't too annoying...
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Ansar Al-'Adl
01-01-2006, 10:38 PM
:sl:

Although I must again ask what the source for the methodology described by Ansar al-'Adl is.
In terms of the religion itself (i.e. Aqîdah and Sharî'ah) then I agree that it is only logical to understand Islam in the manner that it was revealed by Allah in the Qur'an, explained by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh in the Sunnah, and understood by the early generations of Muslims, because their understanding was the correct understanding.

But when we're talking about how the celestial bodies move, how the atmosphere was formed, how animals live - these matters are not part of the religion, so why will we apply a religious methodology in understanding them?

The only ones who can be taken as an authority in these matters is Allah and His Messenger.

Regarding Firawn's body, although I'm usually sceptical to Bucaille, I think he argued very convincingly that Merneptah was indeed the Firawn at the time of Musa (aleyhi salaam), when kept in mind that he uses OT and Egyptology to support his theory. But the fact remains that the history of ancient Egypt is scarce and that we never will be 100% sure in Dunya who the Firawn of that time really was.
I think Muft Muhammad Shafi mentioned something important on this subject (See last quote in this article).

Hope my questions aren't too annoying...
I don't think they're annoying, but I think it can get problematic when Muslims get caught up in these miro details and polemics while forgetting the important issues in Islam, namely getting closer to one's Creator and guarding oneself from the hellfire.

:w:
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