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SpaceFalcon2001
03-16-2005, 01:43 AM
Sorry Ansar, Pulling Deuteronomy 18 just won't fly.
Claim: The Torah Itself Predicts Mohammed as a Prophet
Many Muslims will claim that the Torah itself (apparently the "uncorrupted" part) predicts the coming of their so-called prophet some time after the giving of the Torah. All Bible translations are directly from the Hebrew, all of them literal.
Where Did They Get That Idea?
The relevant verse of the Torah is as follows:

Deuteronomy 18:18 A prophet I will raise up for them from amongst their brethren like you and I will give my words into his lips and he will speak about them all that I command him.

We must ask the following: who is "I", who is "you", who is "them/their"? "I" is G-d, "you" is Moses, "them/their" refers to the Israelites.

So a paraphrase could be: G-d will raise up for the Israelites a prophet from the Israelites' brethren some time in the future that will be like Moses and speak the words of G-d.

Having established that, what's the connection?

The assertion is that "from amongst their brethren" refers to the Ishmaelites, and as Muslims assert many times, Mohammed is descended from Abraham through Ishmael.

In order to properly analyze this, I will not make a table comparing Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, as many do on both Christian and Muslim websites in order to pervert the meaning of this verse.

Instead, I will make a minor sidestep into the world of Jewish thought.

For those of us that do not have the presumption that the Torah is wrong and faulty, there is a list of thirteen basic rules on how to deduce meaning from the Torah. They are provided as the introduction to Sifre, and are recited in the preliminary portion of the daily morning prayers.

Just as in the Torah where there are laws that are obviously "just" and those that we cannot comprehend, a parallel applies here. Some rules make sense, and others are assertions of rules. I will make use of two rules that make a good deal of sense.

Rule number 2 states quite simply "mig'zerah shavah" which means "From a decree of equality".

Rule number 12 is that "davar halamed m'inyano, v'davar halamed m'sofo" which is often translated like "An item is taught/clarified from it's context, or from nearby verses."

Why these two rules? Rule number 2 tells us that if we have a word in one location that is vague, and the same word elsewhere more clear, we can use one to clarify the other. The reason for the second rule will be evident shortly.
The Rebuttal

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.

For further explicitness of the term foreigner, let's turn to Exodus 12.

Exodus 12:43 And G-d said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance of the Passover offering, every son of a foreigner shall not eat of it.

Conclusion
Since we can now see that a foreigner does not take part of something as central as the Passover celebration, which is incumbant on all Israelite males when the Temple stands, we can see that a foreigner is simply a non-Israelite, and it doesn't matter their genealogy.

That being said, we have also shown that a foreigner is someone who is not from "amongst the brethren" of the Israelites.

This being said, it is an incredible leap of both faith and logic to assume that Mohammed the Ishmaelite is predicted by the Torah as coming as a new prophet of a new religion for the Jews.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 02:16 AM
:sl: SpaceFalcon,
I read this article before on messiahtruth. I'll comment on it insha'allah.

The Rebuttal

Just a chapter back, in Deuteronomy 17, we find a similar phrase, but the voice is different. This time Moses is delivering a message from G-d directly to the Israelites, speaking to the Israelites as a single group, instead of us hearing what G-d says to Moses.

Deuteronomy 17:15 You shall put (appoint) upon yourself a king that G-d will pick him; from amongst your brethren you shall appoint a king; you will not be able to give upon yourself a foreign man that is not your brother.

This verse, just a chapter behind the verse about the prophet is quite explicit. It uses the phrase "amongst (their/your) brethren" and then clarifies that a foreigner, which is definitely a non-Israelite, is not the Israelite's brother.
In the translation that you gave me, SpaceFalcon, I found the following:
Devarim 17:14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"

15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.


According to the article, this is used as evidence that "brethren" can only refer to one from among the Israelites. "brethren" is being defined by the word "foreigners" which in turn is being defined by one "who is noot your brother".

So this is really a logical loop. Because if brethren is understood to be Ishmaelites, then they would not be foreigners becuase they would be brethren!

Also, it doesn't really matter how many times "brethren" refers to Isrealites, the question is could it refer to Ishmaeilites?

So I don't think Messiahtruth has refuted anything on this issue, as of yet.

About the Prophecy:
Was the first born son of Abraham (Ishmael) and his descendants included in God's covenant and promise? A few verses from the Bible may help shed some light on this question;


1) Genesis 12:2-3 speaks of God's promise to Abraham and his descendants before any child was born to him.


2) Genesis 17:4 reiterates God's promise after the birth of Ishmael and before the birth of Isaac.


3) In Genesis, ch. 21. Isaac is specifically blessed but Ishmael was also specifically blessed and promised by God to become "a great nation" especially in Genesis 21:13, 18.


4) According to Deuteronomy 21:15-17 the traditional rights and privileges of the first born son are not to be affected by the social status of his mother (being a "free" woman such as Sarah, Isaac's mother, or a "Bondwoman" such as Hagar, Ishmael's mother). This is only consistent with the moral and humanitarian principles of all revealed faiths.


5) The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother, Hagar, as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genesis 21:13 and 16:3. After Jesus, the last Israelite messenger and prophet, it was time that God's promise to bless Ishmael and his descendants be fulfilled. Less than 600years after Jesus, came the last messenger of God, Muhammad, from the progeny of Abraham through Ishmael. God's blessing of both of the main branches of Abraham's family tree was now fullfilled. But are there additional corroborating evidence that the Bible did in fact foretell the advent of prophet Muhammad?


*


MUHAMMAD:
The Prophet Like Unto Moses


Long time after Abraham, God's promise to send the long-awaited Messenger was repeated this time in Moses' words.
In Deuteronomy 18:18, Moses spoke of the prophet to be sent by God who is:


1) From among the Israelite's "brethren", a reference to their Ishmaelite cousins as Ishmael was the other son of Abraham who was explicitly promised to become a "great nation".


2) A prophet like unto Moses. There were hardly any two prophets ,who were so much alike as Moses and Muhammad. Both were given comprehensive law code of life, both encountered their enemies and were victors in miraculous ways, both were accepted as prophets/statesmen and both migrated following conspiracies to assassinate them. Analogies between Moses and Jesus overlooks not only the above similarities but other crucial ones as well (e.g. the natural birth, family life and death of Moses and Muhammad but not of Jesus, who was regarded by His followers as the Son of God and not exclusively a messenger of God, as Moses and Muhammad were and as Muslim belief Jesus was).


*


THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA


Deuteronomy 33:1-2 combines references to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. It speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran. According to Genesis 21:21, the wilderness of Paran was the place where Ishmael settled (i.e. Arabia, specifically Mecca).


Indeed the King James version of the Bible mentions the pilgrims passing through the valley of Ba'ca (another name of Mecca) in Psalms 84:4-6.


Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.


*


MUHAMMAD'S MIGRATION FROM MECCA TO MEDINA:
PROPHECIED IN THE BIBLE?


Habakkuk 3:3 speaks of God (God's help) coming from Te'man (an Oasis North of Medina according to J. Hasting's Dictionary of the Bible), and the holy one (coming) from Paran. That holy one who under persecution migrated from Paran (Mecca) to be received enthusiastically in Medina was none but prophet Muhammad.
Indeed the incident of the migration of the prophet and his persecuted followers is vividly described in Isaiah 21:13-17. That section foretold as well about the battle of Badr in which the few ill-armed faithful miraculously defeated the "mighty" men of Ke'dar, who sought to destroy Islam and intimidate their own folks who turned -to Islam.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 02:24 AM
For a muslim response on Devarim/Deuteronomy 18:
http://www.answering-christianity.co...s_rebuttal.htm
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-16-2005, 02:41 AM
Hi Ansar,

Descendants of Ishmael would be considered as Cousins, not Brothers. But I think that is a relatively minor point in the whole debate. The text, as a whole, speaks of prophets in general. There is one prophet who fulfilled, word for word, the conditions of the text, and that was Joshua. I am writing an article on this actually. I'll see if I can finish it tonight, and then post it here in the thread.
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SpaceFalcon2001
03-16-2005, 03:04 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
In the translation that you gave me, SpaceFalcon, I found the following:
Devarim 17:14. When you come to the land the Lord, your God, is giving you, and you possess it and live therein, and you say, "I will set a king over myself, like all the nations around me,"

15. you shall set a king over you, one whom the Lord, your God, chooses; from among your brothers, you shall set a king over yourself; you shall not appoint a foreigner over yourself, one who is not your brother.


According to the article, this is used as evidence that "brethren" can only refer to one from among the Israelites. "brethren" is being defined by the word "foreigners" which in turn is being defined by one "who is noot your brother".

So this is really a logical loop. Because if brethren is understood to be Ishmaelites, then they would not be foreigners becuase they would be brethren!

Also, it doesn't really matter how many times "brethren" refers to Isrealites, the question is could it refer to Ishmaeilites?
In fact, it could not. Just as a Muslim is not seen as a Jew, he is not a brother in that sense. We are related through Abraham, but not through the Covenant of Moses, that passes through Isaac and Jacob. A king of Israel is bound by the laws of the Torah, a Muslim/Ishmaelite is not. Thus, a king may only come from those who are Israelites.

As you might recall when I showed what HaShem said concerning Ishmael, he would be made into a great nation, but it would be a seperate nation from that of Isaac, the one who's children would recieve the covenant, and we can see that Ishmaelites were a nation outside of Israel.
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yoshiyahu
03-16-2005, 03:51 AM
Ansar, here is a verse from the Torah that indicates that "brethren" equates with "Israelites" in the Mosaic Covenant.

Deuteronomy 17:14-15.

When ... you say "Let us set a king over us like the nations around us, "be sure to appoint over you the king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 05:04 AM
:sl:
Yoshiyahu, that is the very verse I was responding to. You can scroll back to read my response. Two points on that verse:
1. this is really a logical loop. Because if brethren is understood to be Ishmaelites, then they would not be foreigners becuase they would be brethren!
2. Even if this verse clarifies brethren as only being Israelites, it does not mean that it cannot take on different meanings in a different conteext, as it does in many other verses.

Could brethren refer to Ishmaelites?
Brown's Hebrew lexicon states that the hebrew word can refer to an indefinite relative or kin in a wider way, like cousins.
In Deuteronomy 2:4, 8, 'brethren' was used in conjunction with the Edomites, who were basically their cousins.

For more info:
http://www.answering-christianity.co...s_rebuttal.htm

Also, who do Jews think this refers to?
:w:
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-16-2005, 05:48 AM
Greetings Ansar, I don't have time to look up your reference right now, but I will tommorrow. Here is part of the article I am working on. It is not finished, but it will explain my POV on this issue.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Let us first examine the text

A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the L-rd, your G-d will set up for you you shall hearken to him... I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him (Devarim 18:15,18-19, Judaica Press Translation)

The question now is whether the text refers to a specific prophet, or simply prophets in general. The answer is both. The text refers to an Israelite, as it says "from among their brothers, like you". Here, Moses identifies the prophet(s) as being Israelite by the term brothers (cross-reference Devarim 17:14-15), and reinforces this when he says "like you." However, the verse does not speak of a single prophet in paticular. It simply speaks of "a prophet";it could be similarly be paraphrased as "G-d will send you prophets and put words into their mouths...."

Continuing in the same manner of verses 18 & 19, verses 20-22 speak of false prophets, but no one assumes that it is speaking of a specific person! However, let us hypothetically assume that this proof-text does indeed refer to a single person. If, hypothetically, the text did refer to a single person, it could only be Yehoshua (Joshua) ben Nun - Moses' successor.

No man shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I
was with Moshe, so I will be with thee [Yehoshua]: I will not fail thee
nor forsake thee. Yehoshua 1:5

And HaShem said to Yehoshua, This day will I begin to magnify thee in the
sight of all Yisra'el, that they may know that, as I was with Moshe, so
I will be with thee. Yehoshua 3:7

Yehoshua was an Israelite successor of Moses chosen by G-d, fulfilling the requirements of verse 15. He taught the will of HaShem to the people, fulfilling the requirements of verse 18.

In summary, this proof-text can refer to any Israelite prophet. It does not refer to a single prophet in specific, nor is there any indication that it is a messianic prophecy. However, if it was to speak of a single prophet, the requirements of the text were fulfilled by Moses' successor, Yehoshua.
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-16-2005, 05:56 AM
Greetings Asnar,

Do you have another site with a similar article? I do not visit that site because it promotes false information about Jewish beliefs. (Specifically, it claims that raping 3-year olds is allowed in Judaism - which is contrary to all of Torah and Talmud. See: http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/three.html)
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 06:19 AM
I know the site is useless, but it is the only website that is posting that article. The article is not done by the person who runs that website.

So I suggest just looking at the article.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-16-2005, 06:21 AM
I'll comment on your POV tomorrow insha'Allah.

Peace be with you, brother! :)
Reply

أحمد
03-16-2005, 07:21 PM
:sl:
yoshiyahu

Just out of curiosity; what does the alef of your avatar stand for? :p

PS: I'm only curious, I don't think you've been asked that question before either, also I wonder how many people on this forum can actually read hebrew anyway . . . :zip:

:w:
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-16-2005, 09:43 PM
1, that's me, sorta.

Anyway א (Aleph) is the first letter of the hebrew alphabet.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-17-2005, 03:36 AM
Yoshiyahu,
You said that it does not refer to a single prophets, but rather many to come.

However, I assume that you would say that, the best single candidate amongst the Prophets would be yusha bin Nun?

Well, I agree with the Jews who say we should analyze the Torah according to the Torah.

So let's examine the following:

Devarim 33:1-2 And this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the children of Israel [just] before his death.

He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them


This verse speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.

Where is paran?
Genesis 21:21 21. And he dwelt in the desert of Paran, and his mother took for him a wife from the land of Egypt.
This is talking about Prophet Ishmael whom we know was sent to Mecca with his mother. Therefore, the wilderness of Pran is Arabia, and specifically Mecca.

Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar? According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

So if we analyze this, it makes it more claer that Yusha could not be the expected Prophet.

What's more, if we compare Moses and Muhammad we find more simmilarities. I don't need to post the charts that you have obviously seen, but we can examine Yusha bin Nun and see if he fits the Prophecy.

Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws. He only followed the laws of Prophet Moses. Judaism holds Yusha several degrees below Prophet Moses in significance and status. Prophet Muhammad is the only one who made such a revoloution like Prophet Moses.

And finally, ) Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:


It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:
"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".


Based on the above, I find it very hard to believe that this prophecy referred to Moses supporter and follower, Yusha bin Nun. I find it much more believable that it refers to Prophet Muhammad.

:w:
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-17-2005, 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them

This verse speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.

Where is paran?
As written in a midrash:
Verse 2 states that God came to Israel from Seir and Paran, which, as the Midrash records, recalls that God had offered the Torah to the decendants of Esau, who dwelled in Seir, and to the Ishmaelites, who dwelled in Paran, both of whom refused to accept the Torah because it was not in line with their ways. Then, accompanied by some of His myriads of holy angels, God came and offered His firey Torah to the Israelites, who submitted themselves to His sovereignty and accepted His Torah without question or qualification.
Thus, as the only nation worthy of receiving the Torah -- and indeed the only nation that accepted it as an eternal heritage -- Israel is supremely worthy of Moses' blessing. Sforno adds that Moses made this point as a source of merit for Israel, so that God would fulfill His blessings.
--------------
and as written by the Ramban:
In these introductory remarks, Moses incorperated three outstanding merits of Israel: (a) God dwells among them; (b) they accepted His Torah; and (c) they acknowledged His sovereignty.
Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws. He only followed the laws of Prophet Moses.
Giving commands is not the same as bringing more commandments. Joshua successfully lead the Israelites throughout caanan through many battles, many commands were issues.

New laws and revelations cannot be introduced.
Not to add to the commandments of the Torah, whether in the Written Law or in its interpretation received by tradition (Deut. 13:1)

Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you. (Deut 4:2)

Keep them to perform [them] as the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside either to the right or to the left. (Deut 5:29)

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the Lord thy G-d, and keep His charge, and His statutes, and His judgments, and His commandments, always
The Torah may never be changed, it is eternal.
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أحمد
03-18-2005, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by SpaceFalcon2001
1, that's me, sorta.

Anyway א (Aleph) is the first letter of the hebrew alphabet.
:sl:

:) I didn't mean in that way, because I have studied hebrew . . . :shade:

:D I meant what does the word stand for . . . :p ;)

:w:
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-18-2005, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:

:) I didn't mean in that way, because I have studied hebrew . . . :shade:

:D I meant what does the word stand for . . . :p ;)

:w:
:sl: His sig says Shalom! How can you study hebrew and not recogize the word for hello, goodbye, and peace?! :p
:w:
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yoshiyahu
03-18-2005, 10:16 PM
Hi Ahmed!

It doesn't stand for anything in paticular. Over the past few weeks I've been changing my avatars to something with a Hebrew letter.

Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:sl:
yoshiyahu

Just out of curiosity; what does the alef of your avatar stand for? :p

PS: I'm only curious, I don't think you've been asked that question before either, also I wonder how many people on this forum can actually read hebrew anyway . . . :zip:

:w:
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-18-2005, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
However, I assume that you would say that, the best single candidate amongst the Prophets would be yusha bin Nun?
Yusha = Joshua (English) or Yehoshua (Hebrew), right?

If so, I would say that yes, Joshua/Yehoshua/Yusha most definetely fits the conditions set in Duet 18.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
So if we analyze this, it makes it more claer that Yusha could not be the expected Prophet.
I don't understand how those passages are relevant to the Deut. 18 passage which we are discussing.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
What's more, if we compare Moses and Muhammad we find more simmilarities. I don't need to post the charts that you have obviously seen, but we can examine Yusha bin Nun and see if he fits the Prophecy.
Actually, I've only seen one chart comparing Moses, Muhammed, and Jesus (which was from a Christian POV). I wouldn't mind viewing one from a Muslim POV.

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws.
Where does it say that the prophet will give additional laws? However, there is evidence that Joshua gave the Israelite people commands:

Hashem told Moses "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man who has the Spirit of Hashem on him, and ordain him. Present him to Elazar the High Priest and all of the Congregation of Israel, and instate him as they watch. Impart some of your splendor to him, so that all the Congregation of Israel will obey him." (Numbers 27:18-20)

In this verse, the actions done were so that "the congregation of Israel will obey him".

I believe that some things done in Judaism today were given by the Prophet Joshua. I will ask my Rabbi about this to be sure.
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-20-2005, 02:13 AM
Hi! THis was the reply I recieved.

The one thing that comes immediately to my mind is the
rule which the Jewish People took on themselves at the
beginning of his leadership, that anyone who would
disobey his command (as a righteous Jewish King) would
be liable to the death penalty.

Also the "Aleinu" prayer in every Jewish prayer
service is from the time of Yehoshua
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
03-20-2005, 03:48 AM
Sorry, i'm a little bit lost here. Who wrote that quote and what is it referring to?
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-24-2005, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Sorry, i'm a little bit lost here. Who wrote that quote and what is it referring to?
The quote was showing some examples of Joshua/Yehoshua bin Nun's leadership. It was from a private email exchange. Also the below show some examples of Yehoshua being like Moses. Both were commands given by G-d through Yehoshua.

Yehoshua (bin Nun) composed the second
paragraph/blessing of the Jewish grace after bread.
(Moses composed the first paragraph/blessing.)

After the walls of Jericho were miraculously destroyed
and the city was captured by Yehoshua's army, it was
decreed that the city should never again be rebuilt.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-28-2005, 02:36 AM
There is another point which is being briefly discussed here. Some Jews assert that the prophecy relates to and is fulfilled in the person of Joshua. But the wording of the prophecy and the context do not permit it. Joshua was the contemporary of and junior to Moses. Moses himself had nominated him as his successor under the instruction of the Lord. He was a disciple, attendant, and successor of Moses and not an independent prophet himself. No "Law" was revealed unto him. So he was in no way 'like unto Moses'. The words of the prophecy, 'The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy Brethren, like unto me;' clearly denote that they relate to some future event, whereas Joshua physically existed there when this prophecy was uttered. The book of Malachi is the last of the Minor Prophets and of the OT. It records the prophecy uttered by the Lord in the following words [which shows that the messenger of the covenant was yet to come by his time, and, as such, Joshua could not have been this "a prophet"

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come[29] to his temple[30], even the messenger of the covenant [stress added] whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.[31]

As to the date of Malachi, 'McKenzie' observes:

The book is dated by the critics after the rebuilding of the temple in 516 BC, during the Persian period and before the reforms of Nehemiah and Ezta, i.e., before 432 BC.[32]

The recording of the prophecy regarding 'the messenger of the covenant' in it shows that till 432 BC the Israelites were still waiting for him and he was yet to come.


Then there is the epilogue of the book of Deuteronomy which reads,

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.[33]


It is probable that this epilogue might have been written by Ezra eight to nine hundred years after Moses. So the prophecy remained unfulfilled till 8-9 centuries after Moses. It is also probable that it might have been written by some other redactor of the book when the Torah and some other books of the Bible were first compiled in written form about five hundred years after Moses. It means that the prophecy remained unfulfilled for not less than 500 years after Moses. It does not mean that it was fulfilled after it. Nobody ever claimed to be 'the messenger of the covenant' or fulfilled its pre-requisites at any time after Moses. Almost every scholar of the Bible understands that it stood unfulfilled even after the time of Jesus Christ. The Bible Knowledge Commentary observes,

During the first century A.D. the official leaders of Judaism were still looking for the fulfillment of Moses' prediction (cf. John I: 21).[34]

That it remained unfulfilled during the time of Jesus Christ and the Jews were still waiting for the coming of this prophet, can be ascertained from the following passage of the Gospel According To John:

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet [stress added]? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (...). And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?[35]

It has become clear from the study undertaken above that this 'Prophet like unto Moses' had not been raised up till the time of Jesus Christ.

[29] The actual Hebrew word used for this 'come' is avb (a?v?b), which can be pronounced as bow'. According to Strong's 'A Concise Dictionary of the words in the Hebrew Bible', p. 19, entry No. 935 it means: "to go or come (in a wide variety of applications):-abide, befall, beseige, go (down, in, to war), [in-]vade, lead." It shows that 'the messenger of the covenant (it may be noted here that Jesus never claimed for himself to be the messenger of the covenant)' 'shall suddenly go down to war, besiege, and invade his temple'. It is a true and exact picture of the Prophet of Islam's conquest of Makkah'. No other prophet ever 'came so triumphantly and suddenly to his temple' as did the prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) come.
[30] How clearly and unequivocally came this prophecy true in the person of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh)! He secretly came upon his Temple, Ka'bah, in the city of Makkah, at the time of its conquest, so that it be conquered without any battle and bloodshed. The Makkans came to know about the arrival of Muhammad at the head of an army of ten thousand holy ones only when he had reached the gate of the city and the city was taken without any bloodshed. This is what Malachi had said, 'shall suddenly come to his temple.'
[31] KJV, Malachi III: 1, p. 745.
[32] J.L. McKenzie, DB, Geoffrey Chapman, London, 1984, p. 537.
[33] KJV, Deu. XXXIV: 10 p. 195.
[34] The B Knowledge C, Ed John F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, SP Publications, Inc., Weaton, Illinois, 3rd Ed, 1986, p. 297.
[35] KJV, John, I: 19-25, p. 82.

Source:
http://www.understanding-islam.org/r...75&sscatid=567
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-28-2005, 03:10 AM
Joshua was Moses' friend, contemporary, and sucessor. Like Moses he gave the people the Torah, and led them into the land of Israel. He also established new rules.

Joshua 3:7 "...This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Yisra'el, that they may know that, as I was with Moshe, so I will be with thee (Yehoshua)..."
Reply

SpaceFalcon2001
03-29-2005, 12:30 AM
I suspect he refers to:
Deut. 34.:
10. And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
11. as manifested by all the signs and wonders, which the Lord had sent him to perform in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and all his servants, and to all his land,
12. and all the strong hand, and all the great awe, which Moses performed before the eyes of all Israel.
Reply

Sinner
03-31-2005, 11:52 AM
For what it is worth, and it is very hotly debated, this is what the Bible Code has came up for the Suffering Servant in ISAIAH 52:13-53:12. I bring it up as an interesting curiosity more then anything else.
http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/codes.htm
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-31-2005, 09:40 PM
things similar to the bible codes can be found in a variety of texts. They don't constitute adequete proof of anything.
Reply

yoshiyahu
03-31-2005, 09:56 PM
No one thinks that Joshua was greater than Moses. He was a prophet like Moses, as is shown in the verses from the book of Joshua. I could compare it to the Kymco People 250 scooter and the Kymco People 150 scooter. They are very similar in nature, and the 150 and the 250 versions are like each other, but the 250 version is much better than the less powerful 150.
Reply

Ghazi
12-31-2005, 11:28 PM
:sl:
Dear brothers and sisters, I was trying ton give dawa in a chat room when someone said that Muhammad told false Propercies and they mentioned. Muhammad in Deuteronomy
Reply

Abu Omar
12-31-2005, 11:38 PM
:w:

You should have asked them to tell which of his prophecies that were false.

And yes, Muhammed (sall'Allaahu aleyhi wa sallam) is prophecied in Deuteronomy as the prophet to come and that he will be similiar to Musa (aleyhi salaam).
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-01-2006, 10:53 PM
:sl:
The following book has a section that discusses prophecies of Muhammad saws in the Bible:
http://www.voiceforislam.com/Pdfs/In...e_Of_Islam.pdf
Reply

yoshiyahu
01-01-2006, 11:14 PM
No, Mohammed is not prophecied in Dueteronomy. Nor is Jesus, as the Christians will tell you. It refers to any "true" prophet. On a website I once ran, I had the following:

Christians often point to Devarim 18:18 as a Messianic Prophecy of Jesus. Similarly, Muslims claim that it is a prophecy of Mohammed. This article will examine the claims of both, and show that the text is not refferring to a single prophet in paticular; but rather, it is describing prophets (as a whole).

Lets first examine the text

A prophet from among you, from your brothers, like me, the L-rd, your G-d will set up for you you shall hearken to him... I will set up a prophet for them from among their brothers like you, and I will put My words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. And it will be, that whoever does not hearken to My words that he speaks in My name, I will exact [it] of him (Devarim 18:15,18-19, Judaica Press Translation)

The question now is whether the text refers to a specific prophet, or simply prophets in general. The answer is both. The text refers to an Israelite, as it says "from among their brothers, like you". Here, Moses identifies the prophet(s) as being Israelite by the term brothers (cross-reference Devarim 17:14-15), and reinforces this when he says "like you." However, the verse does not speak of a single prophet in paticular. It simply speaks of "a prophet";it could be similarly be paraphrased as "G-d will send you prophets and put words into their mouths...."

Continuing in the same manner of verses 18 & 19, verses 20-22 speak of false prophets, but no one assumes that it is speaking of a specific person! However, let us hypothetically assume that this proof-text does indeed refer to a single person. If, hypothetically, the text did refer to a single person, it could only be Yehoshua (Joshua) ben Nun - Moses' successor.

No man shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moshe, so I will be with thee [Yehoshua]: I will not fail thee nor forsake thee. Yehoshua 1:5

And HaShem said to Yehoshua, This day will I begin to magnify thee in the sight of all Yisra'el, that they may know that, as I was with Moshe, so I will be with thee. Yehoshua 3:7

Yehoshua was an Israelite successor of Moses chosen by G-d, fulfilling the requirements of verse 15. He taught the will of HaShem to the people, fulfilling the requirements of verse 18.

In summary, this proof-text can refer to any Israelite prophet. It does not refer to a single prophet in specific, nor is there any indication that it is a messianic prophecy. However, if it was to speak of a single prophet, the requirements of the text were fulfilled by Moses' successor, Yehoshua.
Reply

Ansar Al-'Adl
01-01-2006, 11:25 PM
Thread merged.

I think we've discussed this already.
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