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Khattab
02-24-2005, 11:53 PM
What is the position of the Prophet Jesus (PBUH) in Unitarian Christianity, what do they view him as?
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kadafi
02-25-2005, 06:46 PM
:sl:

Accordin' to Biblical Unitarianism, they see Jesus as the "son of god" who was a mortal man. They see God as One being and Jesus as a mortal man who was later conceived by the spirit and attained divinity and immortality, however, they sitll don't classifiy him as a God.

Accordin' tp Rationalist Unitarianism, they see Jesus as a wise man who taught others how to lead a righteous life.
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CoreIssue
02-26-2005, 12:57 AM
Just a note for clarification.

Biblical Christianity rejects Unitarians as Christian.

They are classified as Christian cult.

Theologically cult means claiming to be part of a world religion, using the books, names, terms and such of but redefining them in a way that violates the core defining meanings of being part of that religion.

Here is from the UUA site.

There are cults of Christianity as there are of Islam. ;)

I felt there should be a Christian clarification made here to help keep this point very clear. Don't want to let the false impression this group is actually Christian to be promoted.

That was all I wanted to say. ;D
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Chuck
02-27-2005, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Amir
What is the position of the Prophet Jesus (PBUH) in Unitarian Christianity, what do they view him as?
"(Muhammad) Say: "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's will)." (3:64)

I hope the verse helps.
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Mohsin
03-14-2006, 04:51 PM
I've been thinking a lot about christian unitarians lately

What is their belief exactly?

If they believe in just one God, and so not in trinity, then do they think Jesus and Jesus alone is God

Or is he a prophet of God?
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Ghazi
03-14-2006, 04:53 PM
Salaam

Who are they???
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Mohsin
03-14-2006, 05:00 PM
Sorry i just realised this there has already been a similar thread, i should've checked. Anyways there wasn't ant reply there, so hopefully there'll be more replies here

Salaam

Who are they???
Erm i'm not too sure exactly thats why i've opned the thread to find out what they believe. They are a christian sect ,I think they don't believe in the trinity, just in One God plain and simple. I'm not sure on where they consider the position of Jesus PBUH to be
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Ghazi
03-14-2006, 05:02 PM
Salaam

Right, I'll check the thread inshallah.
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renak
03-15-2006, 08:01 AM
Hi. I'm a Unitarian. Unitarians are an old Christian sect which denies the trinity. They view Jesus as a messenger, not God. They respect the faith of all religions, and encourage questioning and research.

The majority of the Unitarian church merged with the Universalist church. They formed Unitarian Universalists. Both Unitarians and Universalist sects trace their beginnings to Christian Protestantism. However, today the Unitarian Universalist church adopts no creed, and encompasses all religions. Therefore, many "christians" now choose to label the Unitarian Universalist as occult (much like they view Mormans, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witnesses, etc).

My personal experience with the Unitarian faith has been only focussed on the Christian aspect, with respect to Judaism, Islam, and Humanism. Since the denomination is so liberal, each church pretty much adopts their own structure and emphasis.

Even though they state that they adopt "no creed", I would have to argue that their only creed is that God is God alone. This allows for acceptance of all other world religions.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-15-2006, 08:05 AM
so do you believe jesus is the son of God?:?
-Peace
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renak
03-15-2006, 08:26 AM
Originally Posted by ~Mu'MiNaH~
so do you believe jesus is the son of God?:?
-Peace
I was taught that he was a messenger (prophet), like Mohammed. The term "son of God" is often taken out of context. I would have to say that most of the Christians that I know (various protestant sects) were taught that Jesus and God were separate entities. The trinity is mostly a Catholic belief. Most protestants do not understand, or fully accept the trinity. Therefore, they ignore the whole trinity issue. To the protestant sects I would have to argue that the humanity of Jesus is stressed. When someone refers to Jesus as the "son of God", they are normally meaning that Jesus was a son of God just as I am a daughter of god, or any male is a son of god. God made Jesus, he also made me, and you, etc...We are his "children".

The beliefs of Catholics and Protestants are completely opposite of one another. It's also worth mentioning that in the United States, there's more than twice as many Protestants, opposed to Catholics. I would even venture to say (and some may not agree) that Protestants in general have more in common with Islam than they do Christian Catholics. However, most Protestants do not realize this, due to lack of understanding toward Islam.
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E'jaazi
03-15-2006, 10:21 AM
When I first began to research Islam, I first started to read the Bible. I mean actually read it, as oppose to going over the verses I was familiar with. I began to read alot of the Old Testament and I remember God talking to Isaiah and calling him 'Son of Man.' I remembered that phrase from Sunday school and immediately went to the New Testament. And there it was - written over and over again. Jesus was always being refered to as the 'Son of Man.' When I asked my former Assistant Pastor about why Jesus was called the Son of Man like the other Prophets, he couldn't give me an answer. Of course research was to be done, but he never got back to me on that one.
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Mohsin
03-15-2006, 10:28 AM
I was taught that he was a messenger (prophet), like Mohammed.
So do you believe Muhammed PBUH is also a prophet then, like Jesus PBUH?

The term "son of God" is often taken out of context. I would have to say that most of the Christians that I know (various protestant sects) were taught that Jesus and God were separate entities. The trinity is mostly a Catholic belief. Most protestants do not understand, or fully accept the trinity. Therefore, they ignore the whole trinity issue. To the protestant sects I would have to argue that the humanity of Jesus is stressed. When someone refers to Jesus as the "son of God", they are normally meaning that Jesus was a son of God just as I am a daughter of god, or any male is a son of god. God made Jesus, he also made me, and you, etc...We are his "children".
I agree with you on this, so many places God calls other people son of god, and even begotten son of god, so why the exception with Jesus?
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renak
03-15-2006, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Renak

I am interested by Unitarianism. Thank you for your excellent definition which corresponds to what I knew.

As to your definition of mainstream Christianity you make huge mistakes. Christians do not consider Jesus and God as separate entities. Jesus is an entity of (or in) God.
The Christian God is a composed of three entities who are not Jesus and God, but Jesus, the Father and the Spirit all together being God. There is no separation between them.

If Protestants do not accept the Trinity they are not Protestants.

It is sheer nonsense to say that the beliefs of Protestants and Catholics are completely opposite. The contrary is true.
I do not know where you are from, or the religious customs. I can only speak for myself living in the Midwestern and Southern states of the USA. I was raised Unitarian; however, most of my relatives are Baptist, Methodist, and Mormon, and I attended Christian schools. Therefore, I think I have a pretty good grasp on the differences between the Christian sects.

In regards to Protestants believing in the trinity, this may be true of some, and may even be listed as part of their dogma. However, I've yet to know (out of hundreds) one Protestant Christian who can even explain the trinity, much less state that Jesus is God. They can however state the "meaning" of the trinity as listed above. It has been my experience with fellow Christians, Christian teachers/professors, and clergy that the trinity is all together ignored. I have never heard a Protestant Christian state that Jesus is God. In whole, I think Protestant Christians do not understand the trinity or place much emphasis on it.

Catholicism is very focused on the trinity. I think you are very wrong to assert that they are very similar to Protestant Christianity. In fact, I've known very few Protestants which even accept that Catholic Christians are actually Christian. Most Protestants believe Catholics to be idol worshiping heretics. Intermarriage and/or conversion from a Protestant sect to Catholicism is largely viewed in a very negative manner. I’ve never known a Protestant preacher who felt that Catholics were not doomed to hell. We also need address the fact that the majority of "hate" groups, such as the KKK, in the USA historically (and many presently) direct their discrimination and illegal actions toward the Catholics as much as the minorities. The largest, and most represented, segment of our country is WASP (White Anglo Saxton Protestants). I do admit that the present generation is more accepting of Catholics; however, a very large percentage of these WASP's were raised anti-catholic.

Of course everything stated above is my own personal experience. There are no doubt exceptions.
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renak
03-15-2006, 11:06 AM
Originally Posted by blackjubba
When I first began to research Islam, I first started to read the Bible. I mean actually read it, as oppose to going over the verses I was familiar with. I began to read alot of the Old Testament and I remember God talking to Isaiah and calling him 'Son of Man.' I remembered that phrase from Sunday school and immediately went to the New Testament. And there it was - written over and over again. Jesus was always being refered to as the 'Son of Man.' When I asked my former Assistant Pastor about why Jesus was called the Son of Man like the other Prophets, he couldn't give me an answer. Of course research was to be done, but he never got back to me on that one.
They never seem to get back to you when they don't have an answer.:heated: I've heard some people just say, "You have to have faith", when they can't answer your question. This however is not acceptable to me.
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Mohsin
03-15-2006, 11:15 AM
Hey Renak, so do you believe Muhammed Peace Be Upon Him is a prophet as well then
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renak
03-15-2006, 11:28 AM
Originally Posted by Moss
So do you believe Muhammed PBUH is also a prophet then, like Jesus PBUH?



I agree with you on this, so many places God calls other people son of god, and even begotten son of god, so why the exception with Jesus?

My Unitarian background taught that Muhammed was a prophet like Jesus. I guess you could say that it was taught that he was sent to the Arabic people who had not embraced the teachings of Jesus. Therefore, I always grew up thinking that it was equally acceptable to believe in Jesus, or Jesus and Muhammed, but you didn't need to believe in both. Of course the Unitarian church is quite liberal in their beliefs and many tend to teach that Hinduism, Buddism, Judaism and other religions were sent to the various nations of the world from God. Therefore, as long as a person has the belief in God, and conducts him/herself in a compassionate, respectable manner, they would make it to heaven. I guess God recognized the various cultures and sent religions to them which would be accepted???? This created a more humanistic, and less "Christian" approach in the Unitarian denomination.

In regards to why there's an exception to Jesus when referring to him as the "son of God", I honestly don't know. I always assumed that it was created when the trinity was created, but that's just my opinion.
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Mohsin
03-15-2006, 11:34 AM
We believe that Jesus PBUH was sent for his time and his people, but if a messenger were to come after him, like Muhammed PBUH has come, then it is right to follow the newer message. If you believe Muhammed PBUh to be a Prophet you should follow this message, as Jesus PBUH also lived similarly to this, but there is no proof as to how he lived as the bible doesn't give specific details
We also believe Jesus PBUh will one day return to the earth, but since Muhammed PBUH was the last messenger, he will live like any other muslim

Go here for more info on where we consider Prophet Jesus PBUH to be

http://www.whyislam.org/877/Prophet%5FJesus/
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renak
03-15-2006, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by Moss
We believe that Jesus PBUH was sent for his time and his people, but if a messenger were to come after him, like Muhammed PBUH has come, then it is right to follow the newer message. If you believe Muhammed PBUh to be a Prophet you should follow this message, as Jesus PBUH also lived similarly to this, but there is no proof as to how he lived as the bible doesn't give specific details
We also believe Jesus PBUh will one day return to the earth, but since Muhammed PBUH was the last messenger, he will live like any other muslim

Go here for more info on where we consider Prophet Jesus PBUH to be

http://www.whyislam.org/877/Prophet%5FJesus/
The link was fascinating. Other than the crucifixion, the Islamic account of the return of Jesus is very similar to the Christian belief. I did not know that Islam believed that Jesus would return.

I admit that I understand how one would question the crucifixion. By reading the New Testament, I think one can even argue that a crucifixion did not take place (as it is portrayed by most Christians). This of course would be very offensive to most Christians. I personally don't know what I believe in regards to the crucifixion. This gives me something to research this week. lol

I think the greatest difficulty I have with embracing Islam is the fact that I would have to recognize that the other great religions of the world were invalid. It is hard for me to accept that God would create children, and place them in regions where they would never hear of Jesus or Muhammed. If these people were never exposed to Islam would they be condemed to hell?
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Mohsin
03-15-2006, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by renak
The link was fascinating. Other than the crucifixion, the Islamic account of the return of Jesus is very similar to the Christian belief. I did not know that Islam believed that Jesus would return.

I admit that I understand how one would question the crucifixion. By reading the New Testament, I think one can even argue that a crucifixion did not take place (as it is portrayed by most Christians). This of course would be very offensive to most Christians. I personally don't know what I believe in regards to the crucifixion. This gives me something to research this week. lol

I think the greatest difficulty I have with embracing Islam is the fact that I would have to recognize that the other great religions of the world were invalid. It is hard for me to accept that God would create children, and place them in regions where they would never hear of Jesus or Muhammed. If these people were never exposed to Islam would they be condemed to hell?

No not at all, of course they wouldn't. I asked a similar question before, please visit this site here http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...aven-hell.html

We do accept other religions, we believe most religions were at one time Islam. for example Christianity and Judaism, the Prophets Moses and Jesus PBUT, they were sent by the same God of Muhammed PBUH, so they were messengers of islam and they were Muslims. So were their early followers, they were muslims, that is they submitted their will to God according to the way god wanted. Unfortunately people after the early followers of these religions changed the message and it was no longer islam, since it was no longer God's will, but the will of men, so man made religions such as Christianty and judaism started, even though nowhere does moses say 'I'm a jew and i've come to estabilish Judaism', or similarly Jesus PBUH doesn't say He's a christian who's come to estabilish Christianity, both these terms came later.
Even with other religions around today, Hinduism, and Buddhism, there is a possibility these religions were originally islam but people distorted the message, as prophecies of prophet Muhammed PBUH can be found in them suggesting they bwere originally messengers of God. we believe God has sent a messenger to every nation, and in total 124 000 mesengers have been sent

Also your question as to why God would put someone in to a different religion is he is simply testing us, to see if we will search for the truth, to use our logic and see what is right and wrong, and upon finding the true path we have to act upon it. Of course if we never heard the message then thats different, please read the thread above. But if we did hear the true message and rejected it, then we have nobody to blame but ourself

Regarding the crucifxion, we believe it wasn't jesus PBUH, and i agree the circumstances of the crucifixion aren't clear, so we're not sure what exactly happned. But the only thing we know for sure is what is said in the Qur'an, and we believe it is undisputadly the word of God, and in it Allah has told us that Jesus' likeness was put into someone else, and that person was crucified. also its interesting to see the person getting crucified says on the cross, "My god why have you forsaken me" Just using my own logic i can clearly see a prophet as great as Jesus PBUH would never say such a thing to his Lord who has sent him, and even worse for christians, how can a son say that to his apparent father?
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 12:21 PM
We believe that Jesus PBUH was sent for his time and his people,
What then does the Koran teach concerning the prophecies that Jesus gave us...that still yet haven't been fulfilled...

Are these prophecies for instance cancelled out by the Koran ...or does the Koran mention the exact same prophecies Jesus gave us for the end times.
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Mohsin
03-15-2006, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by Nicola
What then does the Koran teach concerning the prophecies that Jesus gave us...that still yet haven't been fulfilled...

Are these prophecies for instance cancelled out by the Koran ...or does the Koran mention the exact same prophecies Jesus gave us for the end times.

I don't know which prophecies you are talking about, i'm unaware of prophecies in the bible. Can you share some

Either way we believe all the prophets, including ones before Jesus PBUH were told of the signs of the day of judgement. Some of these have come true, some are yet to be fulfilled. We believe all were told of the coming of the last prophet, prophet Muhammed PBUH, and Jesus PBUH himself prophecises Muhammed in the bible

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible.HTM
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 12:27 PM
We do accept other religions, we believe most religions were at one time Islam. for example Christianity and Judaism
Neither do Chrisitians accept other religions...
we believe Christianity is just a continuation from Judaism...that God made the message simplier to understand for his people..what was really required of them...
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by Moss
I don't know which prophecies you are talking about, i'm unaware of prophecies in the bible. Can you share some

Either way we believe all the prophets, including ones before Jesus PBUH were told of the signs of the day of judgement. Some of these have come true, some are yet to be fulfilled. We believe all were told of the coming of the last prophet, prophet Muhammed PBUH, and Jesus PBUH himself prophecises Muhammed in the bible

http://www.islamicity.com/Mosque/Muhammad_Bible.HTM
sure :) here are a couple of them

Luk 21:29 "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees.
Luk 21:30 As soon as they come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and know that the summer is already near.
Luk 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

In Luke 21:29-31, Jesus said that when the fig tree blooms again, people will know that the End Times and Kingdom of God is near. Some Christian scholars believe that the fig tree represents the nation of Israel. This passage is sometimes interpreted to mean that the End Times would not begin until sometime after the nation of Israel regains sovereignty. When Jesus delivered this prophecy about 2000 years ago, Israel was ruled over by the Roman Empire. The people of Israel did not have sovereignty over their own land during that era. But, after centuries of exile, the Jews were able to return to Israel and reclaim sovereignty, in 1948.

In Matthew 16:18,
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Jesus told the Apostle Peter (Simon) that he would be the rock or foundation on which Jesus will build His church, and that the church would not be conquered or wiped out by non-believers (as expressed in the phrase "gates of hell" or "gates of Hades"). Within a few decades after the crucifixion of Jesus, Peter was able to see firsthand that the early Christians would endure tremendous persecution. The church endured intense persecution for about three centuries by the Roman Empire. But, the church survived and thrived during that time, even though the Roman Empire itself disintegrated. Although the majority of the world's religions have died out, Christianity flourished and has become the first religion to have spread worldwide.

I understand that Muslims believe to be the gift Jesus was talking about For Christians this is the gift of the Holy Spirit that dwells in all Chrisitians accept the gift...who teaches us things, gives the power of Healing the sick etc...
This Spirit Gods Spirit is still living. We do not accept a person when dead is still living..it goes back to dust.

Long ago, God, with His infinite foresight, knew that this situation would occur. He knew that we would each need the continuing presence of the Holy Spirit, to practice and learn the proper behavior patterns. He knew that a single lesson would be lost on us. He needed to 'install' part of the Holy Spirit in each of us, in order to continuously combat the naturally evil tendencies of our humanness, and in order to continuously teach us proper Christian thoughts and behavior.

http://mb-soft.com/public/holyspir.html

I understand Mohammed gave you the lessons of living a Holy life and teachings etc...but what does he do today for you besides you are able to read, study his words and live according to his words.

The Holy Spirit is really with you and when you have it...you definiatly know it. So we have Jesus' teachings plus a Holy Spirit indwelling in us.
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Nicola
03-15-2006, 04:40 PM
http://www.americanunitarian.org/AUCChristian.htm


1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;

2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;

3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;

4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal damnation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.
----------------------
The General Convention of the Unitarian Universalists formulated the five principles of the Universalist Faith in 1899.

The Universal Fatherhood of God
The spiritual authority and leadership of His Son Jesus Christ
The trustworthiness of the Bible as containing a revelation from God
The certainty of just retribution for sin
The final harmony of all souls with God
Additional beliefs generally held by Unitarian Universalists are:

Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works in any way.
Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, does not have a will, etc.
There now is and will be rewards and punishments according to one's actions but this does not consist of the traditional doctrine of hell.
Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth.

http://www.carm.org/uni/unitarianism.htm


I've found these to link about their belief system...are they correct...I found it very interesting


I'd like to ask about... what kind of works does the Holy Spirits do today within the Unitarian church...and for it's believers.
Are they the same kind of works that where performed thoughout the Bible in the NT..and the same has into todays Christian church. e.g. healing, speaking in tongues,revelations etc?

I'd like to learn more
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renak
03-15-2006, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by izmi
Renak

I think you should confine yourself to explaining Unitarianism to us and stop saying nonsense about the different Christian faiths.
I do not believe that I'm "spreading nonsense". I feel that I have a pretty good grasp on a lot of the Christian faiths. I'm unsure why you claim that I'm spreading nonsense?????
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renak
03-15-2006, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Nicola
http://www.americanunitarian.org/AUCChristian.htm


1) the belief that human nature in its present condition is neither inherently corrupt nor depraved, but exactly as God created it and intended it to be from the beginning, capable of both good and evil;

2) the conviction that no religion has a monopoly on holy spirit or theological truth;

3) the belief that the Bible, while inspired of God, is written by humans and therefore subject to human error;

4) the rejection of traditional doctrines that malign God’s character or veil the true nature and mission of Jesus, such as the doctrines of predestination, eternal damnation, the Trinity, and the vicarious sacrifice or satisfaction theory of the Atonement.
----------------------
The General Convention of the Unitarian Universalists formulated the five principles of the Universalist Faith in 1899.

The Universal Fatherhood of God
The spiritual authority and leadership of His Son Jesus Christ
The trustworthiness of the Bible as containing a revelation from God
The certainty of just retribution for sin
The final harmony of all souls with God
Additional beliefs generally held by Unitarian Universalists are:

Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works in any way.
Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism.
The Holy Spirit is not a person, does not have a will, etc.
There now is and will be rewards and punishments according to one's actions but this does not consist of the traditional doctrine of hell.
Human reason and experience should be the final authority in determining spiritual truth.

http://www.carm.org/uni/unitarianism.htm


I've found these to link about their belief system...are they correct...I found it very interesting


I'd like to ask about... what kind of works does the Holy Spirits do today within the Unitarian church...and for it's believers.
Are they the same kind of works that where performed thoughout the Bible in the NT..and the same has into todays Christian church. e.g. healing, speaking in tongues,revelations etc?

I'd like to learn more
I believe that most Unitarians would state that the holy spirit was the "essence of God". The holy spirit is not separate from God. I think an easy way to explain the holy spirit is too view it as the guidance God gives us. I suppose that speaking in tongues, revelations, and healings could be contributed to the holy spirit. The denomination doesn't have an official viewpoint on these actions.

The information you found concerning Unitarians sounds pretty accurate. Of course being that it is an extremely liberal religion, members are welcome to accept or reject any belief they find untrue. I think the increased liberalism of the Unitarians has made me exam Islam, Christianity, and other religions in more detail. I personally believe that the Unitarian denomination is becoming more of a "social group", and less of a religious denomination.
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Muslim Knight
03-16-2006, 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by renak
The link was fascinating. Other than the crucifixion, the Islamic account of the return of Jesus is very similar to the Christian belief. I did not know that Islam believed that Jesus would return.
Muslim account on the return of Jesus, quoting from the Bible, the Quran and authentic Hadith of Prophet Muhammad salallahu 'alayhi wassalam.

www.jesuswillreturn.com

I think the greatest difficulty I have with embracing Islam is the fact that I would have to recognize that the other great religions of the world were invalid. It is hard for me to accept that God would create children, and place them in regions where they would never hear of Jesus or Muhammed. If these people were never exposed to Islam would they be condemed to hell
I think I've read a post somewhere in this forum about those who were never exposed to Islam or God's religion and their position in the Hereafter.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...aven-hell.html

Suffice to say, the opinion of Muslim scholars is that a person who has never heard about Islam, will be raised on Judgment Day and will be tested afterwards whether or not he/she will accept Islam.
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Issa
03-16-2006, 04:34 AM
This thread is truly insightful. Thank you all for sharing your opinions. I learned alot tonight. This kind of dialogue makes me smile.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
03-16-2006, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by renak
I was taught that he was a messenger (prophet), like Mohammed. The term "son of God" is often taken out of context. I would have to say that most of the Christians that I know (various protestant sects) were taught that Jesus and God were separate entities. The trinity is mostly a Catholic belief. Most protestants do not understand, or fully accept the trinity. Therefore, they ignore the whole trinity issue. To the protestant sects I would have to argue that the humanity of Jesus is stressed. When someone refers to Jesus as the "son of God", they are normally meaning that Jesus was a son of God just as I am a daughter of god, or any male is a son of god. God made Jesus, he also made me, and you, etc...We are his "children".

The beliefs of Catholics and Protestants are completely opposite of one another. It's also worth mentioning that in the United States, there's more than twice as many Protestants, opposed to Catholics. I would even venture to say (and some may not agree) that Protestants in general have more in common with Islam than they do Christian Catholics. However, most Protestants do not realize this, due to lack of understanding toward Islam.
wow.... i love you!!!....:giggling:
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renak
03-21-2006, 05:45 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Renak

Explain what a Protestant who believes in the Trinity, otherwise he wouldn't be a Protestant, has in common with the Islamic concept of God.

Thank you for answering.
I believe that I've shared in my prior posts that not all Protestants actually believe in the trinity. You are refusing to acknowlege my point of view. In reference to what Protestants may have in common with the Islamic concept of God, let me state the following:

These are often refered to as the Five Principles of Protestantism:

1. The Pope has no authority: There is not an appointed religious leader for all of Protestants. To seek communication with God through a religious leader is not allowed. Communication with God is the direct responsibility of each individual.

2. The Bible Alone: The old and new testaments are the authority for all religious practices and beliefs

3. Free Interpretation of the Bible: Every person has the right to interpret the Bible according to his/her own conscience

4. Salvation is by faith alone: simply in believing in the bible, God, and Jesus, one will receive salvation from God.

5. The Priesthood of all Believers: each person is their own "priest". Protestants have pastors, which serve only to give their views and guidance. People do not have to accept the authority of the pastors.

Being that I am not muslim, and only studying Islam, my source of reference is limited to the articles I've read and conversations I've had with other muslims. I am in no way stating that my interpretation of Islam is correct. My comparisons are mostly subject to what I hear and observe from muslim friends. The comparisons I have between Islam and Protestantism are as follows:

1. Both seem to have a direct relationship with God. Both seem to confess their sins and speak directly God, opposed to a religious leader. Also, neither pray through saints (that I'm aware of).

2. While Protestants rely on the old testament and new testament alone, Muslims have the old testament, Quran, Sunnah, and Hadith. However, it appears to me that both allow for differences in interpretations (hence Sunni and Shia sects).

3. Neither seem to place emphasis on religious idols and icons

Thus I see the similarities between Islam and Protestantism as basically being a direct relationship with God/Allah, absent from worship of church created saints and icons.
Reply

renak
03-21-2006, 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Renak


What are the "completely opposite" beliefs of Protestants and Catholics on the Trinity ?

Thank you for answering.
The "completely opposite" beliefs of Protestants and Catholics on the trinity is simply that to be a Protestant, one does not have to believe in the trinity. One cornerstone of Protestantism is that every individual is supposed to interpret the bible according to his/her conscience. Many Protestants choose not to believe in the trinity. However, this is not an option with Catholics. To be a Roman Catholic, you must believe in the trinity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity...t_distinctions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant
Reply

renak
03-21-2006, 06:50 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Renak

It is the first time in my life that I hear such a ridiculous thing as Protestants do not believe in the Trinity. A Christian by definition is someone who believes in the Trinity and Protestants are Christians. Of course Catholics have exactly the same belief.

The main differences between the two is that Protestants do not recognize the Pope as Jesus representative, and they rely strictly on the Scriptures and not on the Tradition (the Catholic Sunna).

In one of the two links you provide is written that Protestants "uphold the Trinitarian Tradition as a biblical doctrine." (Trinity Wikipedia)

If you read the information again, you will see that Protestants are afforded the right to interpret the bible however they choose. I do not recall the article stated that all Protestants hold the Trinitarian Tradition as a biblical doctrine.

Christians are not by definition people who believe in the trinity. They are people who believe in Christ.

How involved have you been in a Protestant denomination? Do you attend their churches on a regular basis? If so, is it just one denomination, or have you allowed yourself the opportunity to visit several?
Reply

itsme01
03-21-2006, 07:15 AM
Hi Renak,

Thanks for the posts - very informative!

:w:
Reply

itsme01
03-21-2006, 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by renak
My Unitarian background taught that Muhammed was a prophet like Jesus.
then that makes you a Muslim :)
Reply

renak
03-21-2006, 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by itsme01
then that makes you a Muslim :)
Really, I did not know that. Let me clarify that I was taught to respect Mohammed as a prophet, but never taught information about him. Should I change my status from Christian to Muslim? :) I was thinking that I needed to learn a bit more about him.:giggling:
Reply

itsme01
03-21-2006, 07:41 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Really, I did not know that. Let me clarify that I was taught to respect Mohammed as a prophet, but never taught information about him. Should I change my status from Christian to Muslim? :) I was thinking that I needed to learn a bit more about him.:giggling:
lol,
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Defination of a Muslim: One who surrenders to God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

its upto you, whenever you are ready - change it.
Reply

renak
03-21-2006, 08:27 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Renak


They can interpret the Bible only by respecting strict rules of adherence to the Scriptures, not "however they choose".


You give only half of the definition.
Christians are people who believe in Christ as the incarnation of God among humans.


I am not a Christian but I live in Alsace, an area where Catholics and Protestants have been around for centuries, where many villages have a Catholic and a Protestant church and even share the same building (it is called a simultaneum).
Christianity, whether you are a believer or an unbeliever, belongs to our culture.
I still stand firm in my explanations.
Reply

itsme01
03-21-2006, 08:31 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Itsme



By your definition are Christians, Mormons, Hindus Muslims ? They all submit to God.
unfortunately - the mentioned groups fail to worship one God despite the scriptures telling them to do so.

ps: God not god
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by renak
Really, I did not know that. Let me clarify that I was taught to respect Mohammed as a prophet, but never taught information about him. Should I change my status from Christian to Muslim? :) I was thinking that I needed to learn a bit more about him.:giggling:
Looool. Yes, I think you should learn a bit more about him before you do that.:giggling:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 08:41 AM
oh... and I still love you!:happy:
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Itsme



By your definition are Christians, Mormons, Hindus Muslims ? They all submit to God.
Errrr... but we don't think they do. While christians and jews are closer to us in our faith (as they were given a book and a messenger by Allah, and they still hold onto part of this message), we still believe that they are not holding onto the true message. We believe that Islam is the message that all prophets came with, but only the laws were different for the people and their times. Over time, each of these messages were altered or changed some how. As the time came for the final message, Allah sent prophet Mohammed (SAW) with the final message the Qur'an. Allah vowed to keep the Qur'an safe and He promised that it would never be changed. To this day, not even one letter has been changed. Shakespeare's play written about 300 years ago have not even managed to stay untainted. We also believe that as the final prophet and messenger, Muhammad (SAW) was sent for all people. We believe that all the other Prophet's (peace be upon them all) were sent for their people, and were limited to one location. It is against our religion to praise one prophet above another, we love them all. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
Reply

MinAhlilHadeeth
03-21-2006, 10:44 AM
Yes I agree.
Reply

itsme01
03-21-2006, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by izmi
Itsme and Muminah

I am not going to discuss in details in this thread the definition of God according to Christians.
They think that one God takes three different aspects (who dares limiting God?). That's their definition owing to which they are classified among the monotheist religions.

I forgot the Jews.

Anyway the definition of the word "muslim" as "someone who submits" holds for any person who submits to whatever deity.

But of course that word has other significations. Basically it means in Arabic "someone who submits", then it becomes "someone who submits to one God", then it becomes "someone who submits to Allah and the Prophet of Islam".

So I think "Muslim" should be limited to the followers of Islam out of clearness.
There is a reason for that.
At first Everyone is a Muslim.
Then a Muslim is a Person who Believe in One God.
If a Person has heard of Muhammad [PBUH] and the message he [pbuh] confirmed - and (that person) fails to accept him as a Prophet, then that person is not a Muslim. However, if a person has not heard of Muhammad [pbuh] but Believes in One God, then that person is a Muslim.

Ofcourse: As long as he is not commiting sins...to the best of his knowledge....
Reply

Mohsin
03-21-2006, 11:39 AM
By your definition are Christians, Mormons, Hindus Muslims ? They all submit to God.
No as we don't believe they all truly submitt to God, if they did they would follow his way, which at present is Islam. Early Christians and Jews ie the first generation when Jesus PBUH and Moses PBUH and other Judaic Prophets PBUT were here, their followers were following unaltered messages, ie they werte either straight from the prophets of their time, or follwing as of yet unaltered parts of the OT, so they were submitting to God according to the way he wanted. However now that is no longer the case, so they are no longer submitting to God since they are following teachings other than God has prescribed
Reply

Mohsin
03-21-2006, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by izmi
Moss

You and other Muslims do not believe that people from other faiths truly submit to God. That is your opinion and it is not the opinion of those people.

As to the messages from God being "altered", that is also your opinion and not the Jews and Christians' opinion.
Proofs of those "alterations" have been asked for on every religion forum and, as far as I know, never provided.

Yes sorry i was meant to say this is of course our opinion, our belief

Anyway, proof has been provided, but people have chosen not to look at it

I'll quote Br. Azim from the word repititions discussion

First, you believe there is no evidence the Bible has been corrupted, perhaps that is because you haven't been looking. Here are two starters: -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html
The Catholic Church no longer swears by the truth of the Bible, that's a big statement.
Also, there are many contradictions: -
http://www.islamway.com/english/imag...radictions.htm
This is another topic however.
And i gave my own view on this as well

Like Br. azim says you have to look. I believe in God to be someone absolutely perfect and infallible. I can't imagine him ever making any error at all. God can't contradict himself, he would know how to count, and also he would know simple scientific facts like the moon reflects the suns light, since God created all these things. If you look in the Bible the God there makes many of these kinds of errors, and i refuse to believe a God can do any of these.
You may argue scholars of the bible have mistranslated the teachings leading to these errors. We as muslims also often say the same thing, because translations do end up having errors. However the difference is us muslims can say look at the original language it was revealed in,the arabic text, and in it you will find no mistakes, since God himself sent that down in that way, whilst humans have made translations of these texts,and of course humans are prone to error. With the Bible you can no longer find it in its original form, its been through so many changes. I believe if God were to send down a final scripture to give us guidance, he'd make sure it wouldn't be tampered with, since no other guidance will follow after that. So why would he therefore allow such changes to take place and such errors to happen? See with the Qur'an it is still in its original form free of any mistakes, as God has given it to us as eternal guidance
Also go here http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/
Reply

Nicola
03-24-2006, 11:55 AM
That rewriting is acknowledged by most Christians. They say it has been done under God's supervision, and they believe God is powerful enough not to have his Word corrupted.
When Jesus died on the cross...he tells us 'it is finished' his work was done here on earth, he was returning back from where he came...he also tells us that any prophet coming after him...
who preach a different message, is not from God.
This is why Christians do not except Momons, J.W. and all other Christians cults..because they do not preach what Jesus tells us and this goes for any other non-believing religions.

We must test every single spirit that comes to us with messages....saying they are from God...
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
James 2:19 (KJV)


Mt.7:15-16, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits…"
we have set rules how to test these spirits and anything not acceptable according to what Jesus said...is rejected.
Reply

Nicola
03-24-2006, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by izmi
Muslims do the same and reject what does not agree with the Koran.

Thanks
What instructions does the Koran give you to follow..in testing these spirits and see if these messages are coming from God or Satan..
Reply

Mohsin
03-25-2006, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by izmi
That rewriting is acknowledged by most Christians. They say it has been done under God's supervision, and they believe God is powerful enough not to have his Word corrupted.

Ok fine i see your point, but that remains to me illogical and an insufficient reason, since there are still contradictions,scientific and maths errors in the Bible, and i refuse to believe these happened under God's supervision, so therefore i still think it's corrupted

Nicola
When Jesus died on the cross...he tells us 'it is finished' his work was done here on earth, he was returning back from where he came...he also tells us that any prophet coming after him...
who preach a different message, is not from God.
I didn't know this, where in the Bible does it say it i wana check it out?

But still, from what i see, Paul came after Jesus PBUH preaching something different as to what Jesus PBUH says in the Bible, and yet Christians still accept it from God
Reply

thirdwatch512
11-04-2006, 05:14 AM
the unitarian universalist religion is no more a christian religion then it is islam, hinduism, and so forth.

the UU's have no official doctrine.. basically it's a liberal religion, and ANYONE is welcome, and you can believe whatever you want. during their sermons, peole of different religions, some days priests, other times imams, and sikhs, baha'is, all of them, will come, and sicuss their religion.

it's a great place for people are confused about their religion or who have their own beliefs to go. it's also VERY great for people of two different religions to go together [i.e. a jew marrying a christian.. they can be UU's and believe what they want and not be oppressed or forced to convert.] it's also a place where people who have been opressed from their religions have joined.. lots of christians and muslims who are liberal go to UU congregations because they can still worship, but don't have to follow their books and laws word to word.

it's an interesting religion.. i really like it. and i wouldn't mind joining a UU congregation one day.
Reply

Trumble
11-04-2006, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512

it's an interesting religion.. i really like it. and i wouldn't mind joining a UU congregation one day.
Neither would I.

From their website they sound like an excellent organization.

At a Unitarian Universalist worship service or meeting, you are likely to find members whose positions on faith may be derived from a variety of religious beliefs: Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, naturist, atheist, or agnostic. Members might tell you that they are religious humanists, liberal Christians, or world religionists.

All these people, and others who label their beliefs still differently, are faithful Unitarian Universalists committed to the practice of free religion. We worship, sing, play, study, teach, and work for social justice together as congregations-all the while remaining strong in our individual convictions.
A pity they don't seem to reached the UK yet.
Reply

Skillganon
11-05-2006, 12:17 AM
as far as my knowledge UU christian, believe Jesus as a Rabbi(mortal man), believe in one God (non-trinitarian). They don't believe in the miracalouse conception, or any of the miracle e.t.c
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