Stoning to death & Preservation of Hadeeth

format_quote Originally Posted by Staffy

In Allahs infinate mercy and wisdom he set down the exact punishment to be aflicted on both those who commit Adultary and Fornification in Surah 24 verse 2..
So therfore the Hadith subsribing stoning when the punishment has already been ordained by god is a contradiction of the Al-Quran and therfore in my strong veiw should be dissmised......Any Objections?

brother Staffy,

Jazaka'Allahu Khairun bro Ansar for the explanation,

The ayat in Surah An-Noor refers to both fornicators and adulterers but the punishment for the adulterers extends to stoning to death. So in other words, the punishment the fornicators is only limited to 100 lashes whilst the adulterers is 100 lases + stoning to death.

This is because, the stoning verse was first recited durin' the days of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him) but abrogated verbally but its injuction is still applicable. This type of abrogation is known as Naskh at-Tilaawah doona al-Hukm

You see akhee, the sunnah elaborates the verse in Surah An-Noor just like how it elaborates the meaning of salaat in the Glorious Qu'ran.

format_quote Originally Posted by Staffy

The surah refers to those who commit adultery and fornification these verse were given as complete entideys i will repeat myself when i say you cant just ad somthing to the Al-Quran like that espesialy when the punishment is already set in place When God says "be" it will be God is infinate in knowlage and is not bound by time matter or space........You underestimate Him by saying "oh yes god forgot this verse and now it is in sunnah" God forgot NOTHING in the Al-Quran for God forgets NOTHING He een explained to us in the Al-Quran that drinking milk is good for us...Why would he not put in the details of capital punishment when he had already subcribed the verdict???? I need more explanation Brothers.......Im a devout muslim and i'm willing to learn but i am not blind and i will adher to 17:30 for the Al-Quran is the word of God and god is the best of teachers Allhamduilah irabil alamien.................Wasalam Brothers and Sisters..................Staffy

brother,

No one is here adding anything akhee but you fail to grasp the position of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and the rulings of abrogation in Islam.

Firstly, the Prophet (Peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him) was endowed with the authority to make laws or as a legislator. These are not rulings based on his opinions but rather is based on inspiration(wahy).

"By the star when it goes down, your companion (i.e., Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration [wahy] that is inspired." [53:1-4]

Allah (Exalted is He says in the Qur'an:
And My mercy embraces all things. So I shall prescribe it for those who fear Allâh and pay zakâh (obligatory alms) and those who have faith in Our signs; those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written down in the Torah and the Injîl, and who bids them to the Fair and forbids them the Unfair, and makes lawful for them the good things, and makes unlawful for them the impure things, and relieves them of their burdens and of the shackles that were upon them. So, those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him- they are the ones who acquire success. (7:156-157)

Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allâh and His Messenger have made unlawful. (9:29)

No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allâh and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)

Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it. (59:7)

But no, by your Lord, they shall not be (deemed to be) believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission. (4:65)

So now that I have clarified the position of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him), let's move to the authority where he can interpret the Glorious Qur'an.

And We sent down towards you the Advice (i.e. the Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down to them, and so that they may ponder. (16:44)

That ayah is sufficient enough and I will not cite the rest of the other ayats that explain his position.

The Qur'an is complete but it requires explanation and thus Allah (Exalted is He) endowed his Messenger with Hikhmah (Sunnah) to explain what was revealed.

One example would be the prohibition of combinin' two sisters:

Allah (Exalted is He) said:
And (it is also prohibited) to combine two sisters together.

The Prophet (Peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him) clarified that this prohibition is not only restricted to two sisters only but also the prohibition of combining an aunt and her niece, paternal or maternal, as well.

You wrote that I stated that Allaah (Exalted is He) has forgotten the verse (May Allah forgive me). I never wrote that, my dear brother and please forgive me if my statement implied that way.

I wrote and I quote:
This is because, the stoning verse was first recited durin' the days of the Prophet (Peace and blessings of ALlah be upon him) but abrogated verbally but its injuction is still applicable. This type of abrogation is known as Naskh at-Tilaawah doona al-Hukm

In other words, Allah (Exalted is He) in his infinite Wisdom caused to abrogate the verse verbally.

This is in accordance with the verse:
"Whatever of a message We abrogate, or We cause it to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like of it. Do you not know that Allah indeed is the Possessor of power over all things?" (2:106)

Another example would be this ayah:
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
[4:15]

Ibn Khatir (May Allah have Mercy on him) said regarding this verse:

"At the beginning of Islam, the ruling concerning a woman who was proven guilty of adultery was that she was to be detained in a house and not allowed to come out until she died.

So the phrase ‘If any of your women are guilty of lewdness’ refers to adultery. ‘Take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way’ - the ‘other way’ that Allah made for them was the abrogation of this.

Ibn ‘Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, said: ‘This was the ruling until Allah revealed Surat al-Nur, then this punishment was abrogated and replaced with whipping or stoning.’

Something similar was reported from ‘Ikrimah, Sa‘id ibn Jubayr, al-Hasan, ‘Ataa’ al-Khurasani, Abu Saalih, Qutaadah, Zayd ibn Aslam and al-Dahhak, stating that this is abrogated, and this is agreed upon. Imam Ahmad said: ‘Muhammad ibn Ja‘far told us that Sa‘id told us from Qutaadah from al-Hasan from Hattaan ibn ‘Abdullah al-Raqaashi from ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit who said: Whenever the wahy (revelation) descended upon the Messenger of Allah (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him), it affected him, the stress showed on him and his face would change.

Allah sent a revelation to him one day, and when it was over, he said: " Listen to me, Allah has made another way for them. (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried man with an unmarried woman, then in the case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death), and in the case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year."’

It was reported by Muslim and other narrators of Sunan via Qutaadah from al-Hasan from al-Hattan from ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit from the Prophet (Peace & Blessings of Allaah be upon Him) with the wording:
‘Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has made another way for those (women). When an unmarried man commits adultery with an unmarried woman, (they should receive) one hundred lashes, and banishment for one year. In the case of a married male committing adultery with a married female, they should receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.’ Al-Tirmidhi said: This is a saheeh hasan hadeeth."

bro

I cannot see the gist of how it sheds light to the topic being discussed.

format_quote Originally Posted by Staffy

The stoning rule was put in place due to aHadith so therfore to analyse the sinceraty of the rule we must first analyse the aHadith........

bro,

These [hadiths] on stoning are included in the six princinple works and to be more specificailly, in the two sahih collections (i.e. Bukharee and Muslim) so thus, they are not [fabricated] or [weak] but are classified as sahih [authenthic] which every Muslim must accept.

In addition, there is the Consensus of the Ummah from the time of the Sahabas 'till the present age. Plus it is also described in the Qur'an as the 'way out' verse.

Moreover, the 'analysis' that you have posted is fishy to say the least, especially if there are no references provided.

Remember akhee, if you still reject the hudd punishment for stoning whilst clear evidence has been presented to you, then that is an act of kufr (disbelief).

format_quote Originally Posted by Staffy

It states in the al-quran if i am not mistaken that a unclean man is for a unclean woman and a aulteror is for a adulterous and vice versa........if they were dead how could they be for eachother? corrects me if i remember the verse horibly wrong i dont have enough time to look it up......Staffy

It is in Surah An-Nur, verse 3:

The Zani marries not but a Zaniyah or a Mushrikah; and the Zaniyah, none marries her except a Zani or a Mushrik. Such a thing is forbidden to the believers

You have to understand akhee, that the meaning of Zina means illegal sex intercourse. Thus, it embraces both fornication and adultery.

Since the punishment of fornication is not the hudd punishment (capital punishment), this verse applies to them. A Muslim man/woman cannot marry a fornicator except under the condition that they have sincerely repented.

I don't think Islam allows one man to take the life of another.

except in the course of justice.

what do mean by Nor does He (saw) speaks of (his own) desire? Means “every thing” He spoke in his life was Wahy. For example

And when you were saying to him whom God had blessed and you had favored, “keep your wife to yourself and fear God, and you are concealing in your heart what God would reveal, and you are fearing people, though God had a better right that should fear Him”. Then, when Zaid had accomplished formalities concerning her (divorced her), We gave her in marriage to you, so that there should be no blame on the Believers concerning the wives of their adopted sons, when they accomplish formalities concerning them; and Allah's command is ever done. (37/33)

What you say about above verse? If the words Muhammad (saw) said to Zaid (rt) was the result of wahy then why Zahid (rt) did not act upon?

No brother this saying (53:1-4) is only for Quran that the every word of Quran is the word of Allah. Further how you become sure that you are debating over the words really the words of Muhammad (saw)?

It is your assumption my brother that Muhammad (saw) have the authority to make laws. It is impossible for any messenger that has the authority as a legislator. Legislator is only and only One and that is Almighty Allah. And the Messengers are the first and perfect actor upon order of Allah.

You want to know the clarification for the term wahy but in the next sentence, you assume you already figured it out and attack based on your erroneous explanation of the verse. Let me re-iterate the verse:

"By the star when it goes down, your companion (i.e., Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration [wahy] that is inspired." [53:1-4]

What is this Inspiration that is inspired? Is it the wahy that is revealed to him pertaining to the religion or is it every word that he utters? Unrecited wahy is obviously relating to the Al-Islaam. EVERYTHING that is related to the religion, the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is immune from making a mistake. And that means his Sunnah is immune from mistakes. And that is exactly what the verse is refering. If the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah) wasn't immune of mistakes pertainin' to the religion, then Islaam would be corrupted and there was the posibility that the Prophet could have a mistake in revealing the Message. And thus, the Message would not be protected.

Allaah rebuked the Prophet in the verse you cited because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah) is not immune from minor sins. These are minor sins that have nothing to do with conveying the Message and the revelation. And when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah) commited this minor sin, he was hastenly rebuked by Allaah. The previous Prophets were also rebuked when they commited a minor sin that had nothing do to with conveyin' the Message.

For instances:

"Thus did Adam disobey his Lord, so he went astray.

Then his Lord chose him, and turned to him with forgiveness, and gave him guidance"
[20:121-122]

Here, our father Adaam (peace be upon him) commited a sin but was swiftly rebuked by his Lord.

Or what about Moses (Peace be upon him).

"He said: `This is of Shaytaan's (Satan's) doing, verily, he is a plain misleading enemy.'

He said: `My Lord! Verily, I have wronged myself, so forgive me.' Then He forgave him. Verily, He is the OftForgiving, the Most Merciful"

[28:15-16]

Here, Moses (peace be upon him) confessed his sin and sought forgiveness from Allaah after he killed the Egyptian and Allaah forgave his sin.

These are some of the examples that support my point.

It is also funny that you cited the verse regardin' Zaid, 'cause in that verse, Allaah made us clear that he disclosed to the Prophet (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that he would marry Zainab (May Allaah be pleased with her).

Let me re-iterate the verse again(emphasis added):

When you were saying to the one whom Allah had blessed and whom you had blessed, (i.e. Zaid, before he divorced Zainab), “Keep to you your wife and fear Allah,” and you were hiding in your heart what Allah was to disclose and you were fearing people, and Allâh has more right to be feared by you. So, when Zaid finished with her, We made you marry her, so that there may remain no restriction on the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons when they have finished with them. And the order of Allah had to be done. (33:37)

See the emphasised words. Can you point out the information that Allaah (Exalted is He) disclosed to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Where did Allaah (Exalted is He) tell His messenger that he was going to marry Zainab (May Allaah be pleased with her). You cannot, because this is again unrecited revelation. But let's look at an another evidence in the same verse. Allaah (Exalted is He) also said: "We made you marry her". Where can I find this order in the Glorious Qur'an?

Could you present even a single verse from Quran that indicate Muhammad (saw) have the authority as a legislator?

A single verse? I could provide you with atleast 5 verses.

And My mercy embraces all things. So I shall prescribe it for those who fear Allâh and pay zakâh (obligatory alms) and those who have faith in Our signs; those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet whom they find written down in the Torah and the Injîl, and who bids them to the Fair and forbids them the Unfair, and makes lawful for them the good things, and makes unlawful for them the impure things, and relieves them of their burdens and of the shackles that were upon them. So, those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him- they are the ones who acquire success. (7:156-157)

Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allâh and His Messenger have made unlawful. (9:29)

No believer, neither man nor woman, has a right, when Allâh and His Messenger decide a matter, to have a choice in their matter in issue. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)

Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it; and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it. (59:7)

But no, by your Lord, they shall not be (deemed to be) believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission. (4:65)

I think you did not read the word “Taba’yan” means “explain some thing in every way” in Quran for Quran. This word is used in Quran many times for Quran that this Quran is sent to you with complete explanation in it. There is nothing beyond it. And the perception you tried to explain through some Aayaat is only assumption nothing more.

I read it correctly, your argument is flawed. Here, you're arguing the Qur'an is sent with complete explanation but yet Allaah (Exalted is He) has said in many verses that he sent His messenger to EXPLAIN and Instruct them. If we use your logic that the Qur'an was sent with the complete explanation, then clearly, the Prophet was nothing more than an postman who should only deliver the Qur'an. And you also accused Allaah for making mistake in the verse that he send his Messenger to purify and instruct the people. You cannot claim that the Qur'an has been setd down with complete explanation in one part and in the other part claim that the Messenger should explain the Message in a different way. Contradictatory parts, wouldn't you agree?


Another proof that support that the Prophet was sent down as a teacher.

Allaah (Exalted is He) said:

Move not your tongue with it in order to hasten it. It is on Us to gather it (in your heart) and to recite it. So, when We read it, follow its reading. Then it is on Us to explain it. (75:16-19)

In the last sentence, Allaah (Exalted is He) reassured His messenger that he would explain the verses of the Glorious Qur'an to him. Where is the explanation? Is that explanation the unrecited wahy? What happend to the "complete explanation Qur'an".

Muhammad (saw) have not any right to add or remove even a tiny thing and if He did then Quran said,

And surely they had purposed to turn you away from that which We have revealed to you, that you should forge against Us other than this Quran, and then they would certainly have taken you for a friend. And had it not been that We had already established you, you would certainly have been near to incline to them a little; In that case we would certainly have made you to taste a double (punishment) in this life and a double punishment) after death, then you would not have found any helper against Us. (17/73,74,75)

The Prophet Muhammad (Peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to add the explanation to what was revealed to him. That was the decree of Allaah and supported in the Glorious Qur'an. As for the verse you cited, do you even know the history behind it? That verse was revealed after the so-called interpolation allegation. It was the (false) story that the Prophet was deceived by Sheeytan and added something in to the recited revelation.

O people, the advice and cure of your souls has revealed in the shape of Quran, it is the grace, blessing and correct guidance for the persons having full faith. O Prophet Say them it is by the blessings and grace of Almighty Allah so rejoice for it and believe, it is better than that of any thing they are collecting himself.
(Younas, 57)
Imam Zahbi said for above verse when this ayat revealed Muhammad (saw) said to His companions “Don’t write any thing from me but only Quran and if you have some thing in written besides Quran destroy it” So all the written material (relate with deen) besides Quran destroyed and said by Abu Bakar (rt) and Umar_a _farooq (rt) to other people “hasbona kitaab Allah” means the book of Allah is enough.”
“Taz’kira tul Haffaaz – book one” by the reference of Sahee Muslim”

You're not giving the complete story and nor are did you state the complete hadeeth.

The full text of the hadeeth is:

Do not write (what you hear) from me, and whoever has written something (he heard) from me, he should erase it. Narrate to others (what you hear) from me; and whoever deliberately attributes a lie to me, he should prepare his seat in the Fire.” [Sahih Muslim]

Remember that you ommited the part where it states: "Narrate to others what you hear from me".

What is the story behind this hadeeth? It is explained coherently in the following treatise titled 'The Authority of Sunnah'

The underlined phrase of the hadîth clarifies that prohibition for writing hadîth was not on account of negating its authority. The actual reason was that in the beginning of the revelation of the Qur’ân, the companions of the Prophet were not fully familiar with the Qur’ânic style, nor was the Qur’ân compiled in a separate book form. In those days some companions began to write the ahâdîth along with the Qur’ânic text. Some explanations of the Qur’ân given by the Prophet were written by some of them mixed with the Qur’ânic verses without any distinction between the two. It was therefore feared that it would lead to confuse the Qur’ânic text with the ahâdîth.

It was in this background that the Prophet stopped this practice and ordered that anything written other than the Qur’ân should be rubbed or omitted. It should be kept in mind that in those days there was a great shortage of writing paper. Even the verses of the Qur’ân used to be written on pieces of leather, on planks of wood, on animal bones and sometimes on stones. It was much difficult to compile all those things in a book form, and if the ahâdîth were also written in the like manner it would be more difficult to distinguish between the writings of the Qur’ân and those of the ahâdîth. The lack of familiarity with the Qur’ânic style would also help creating confusion.

For these reasons the Prophet directed his companions to abstain from writing the ahâdîth and to confine their preservation to the first three ways which were equally reliable as discussed earlier.

But all this was in the earlier period of his prophethood. When the companions became fully conversant of the style of the Qur’ân and writing paper became available, this transitory measure of precaution was taken back, because the danger of confusion between the Qur’ân and the hadîth no longer existed.

Did the Prophet instruct them after the style of the Glorious Qur'an was made clear to them? Yes.

“Seek help from your right hand,” and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]

Râfi’ ibn Khadij , the famous companion of the Prophet says, “I said to the Prophet [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied:

You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]

Sayyiduna Anas reports that the Prophet () has said:

Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]

Sayyiduna Abu Râfi’ sought permission from the Prophet to write ahâdîth. The Prophet permitted him to do so. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]

It is reported that the ahâdîth written by Abu Râfi’ were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn ‘Abbâs says:

I saw some small wooden boards with ‘Abdullâh Ibn ‘Abbâs. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Prophetwhich he acquired from Abu Râfi’. [Tabaqât Ibn Sa’d]
‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Âs reports that the Prophet said to him:

Preserve knowledge.

He asked, “and how should it be preserved?” The Prophet replied, “by writing it.” [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]

What you indicate through some Ayaat only a way of saying that there is no difference between both Allah and Muhammad’s (saw) saying, because Muhammad did or said as it as revealed in Quran. So it is impossible for Muhammad (saw) add or remove something in the order of Allah in the name explanation.

That is because the sayings of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) IS A REVELATION. They are revealed by Allaah. And nor did I speak about adding something in the Glorious Qur'an, rather, I said that the Prophet was sent to explain the Qur'an in detail since the Glorious Qur'an lays the brief injunctions and the Prophet elaborates it.

Don’t try to load a burden over Muhammad (saw) because you would have to put it on your neck. If Muhammad (saw) did as you stated then He had not any right to say himself a Messenger. Quran has said at many places that Muhammad (saw) is nothing but a Messenger and the perfect actor of what reveals to Him. So how is it possible that He (saw) add this thing in the order of Allah? Brother you says others that they don’t know the place of Muhammad (saw) but I think you don’t know the exact place of Muhammad (saw)

I am not "trying" anything, rather you akhee are trying to attribute a new interpretation of the position of the Prophet. I am only repeating what has been revealed in the Qur'an and has been accepted by the Sahabas untill the present day Ummah. And you are right, the Prophet was nothing more than a Messenger meaning that he was just like the other messengers and that he was an human being.

Abrogated verbally but order is still applicable? Is it the thing some one have some intellect could agree with? If I ask here could you plz put even a single example other than this? There was a verse revealed by Allah but stop to enter in Quran, what a thing (wah je wah), a verse one of two lives depends upon stop to enter in Quran, but the order is still applicable, good very good. Then what is the place of Quran? There could be some other Ayaat that were stopped to enter in quran, what you say about? I think you want to spread the “Aqeedah” of Shia Sect that there were some verses did not enter in Quran and this Quran is incomplete. And what about the saying of Allah that “I am the protector of this Quran”

I am the spreader of the Shia 'aqeedah? The three types of abrogation is not in accordance with your intellect? Rather, an intellect who had specialized in the Sciences of the Glorious Qu'ran would agree with my claim. The claim of Ahlu Sunnah Wal Jamaah. The view of all the majority of scholars, the view of the scholars of tasfirs and hadeeth. These types of abrogation are stated in the Sunnah. Only the types with lack of understanding the Quranic sciences would make such claim.

Stoning is the matter of life and death. Don’t you know even in the matter of murder there is first rule is “Qassaass” but in this matter death is necessary, there is no other way. This is your Deen? Don’t the orders of Allah enough for you that you want to add some thing and add in this way? Surprising

I cannot grasp why you introduced Qasaas (retribution) in to the topic. I will make it clear, rejecting the hudd punishment for stoning is an act of kufr 'cause it is rejecting one of the fundamental laws of Islam. I have made the proof clear to you that the stoning is an applicable law of Islam.

Now what you say about these verses? What is the place of them in quran? I think all these verses are useless after the order of stoning so there is no need of these verses in Quran. Is this the Quran the base of Islamic rules and regulations?

You then cited a few verses regarding zina which I already have addressed. Perhaps if you had read my previous reply, you wouldn't had raise such question. Lack of reading on your part akhee.