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Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    First of all I dont mean any offense with my questions.They are legitimate concerns.

    If the bible is wrong then how can you have any confidence that the Quran is correct?If the bible is wrong then God isnt capable of presenting a book that says what he wants it to.He has to worry that somewhere along the lines a sinful human will put something in there that is untrue.If he couldnt do it the first time then how can you think he could do it the second time with the Quran?From what I know,the Quran is based off the old testament.However,muslims say that there were errors in it so God had to rewrite another book?What happens when someone else comes along and says that the Quran is incorrect and writes a third book?That gives the Quran nothing to stand on.Just the fact that muslims claim that most of the old testament is true,makes me think that the Quran isnt true because of the above arguement.It doesnt make sense.


    Another thing that makes no sense to me is that Muslims claim Jesus was a prophet but not who he claimed to be.If he was just a prophet,then what did he do?It seems to me that all he did was mislead millions of people into believeing in him and not much of anything else.That would make him the most evil prophet that ever lived.Why would God make a prophet who would do that?And by saying that Jesus was a prophet,the Quran acknowledges that the New Testament is somewhat true and that God was unable to control what was written in his own Word.

    Also,I dont see what writing the Quran accomplished anyways.I havent read as much as I should have but it doesnt seem to present anything new.What it does is establishes a different religion.It seems plain to me that the God of the Old testament and the Quran are different.The God of the bible is about love.The God of Islam is about following rules and laws.The God of the bible never intended for us to live like that forever.Only till Jesus came and sacraficed himself to pay for our sins.Islam is still living under law and not love.

    Heres a question.Pretend you live your life as a Muslim and your good deeds outweigh your bad.You go to heaven right?Now what was your motivation to do good?It was for the reward of heaven.Or maybe you feared going to hell.Those arent good reasons to do good.Those arent good reasons to follow God.If you arent doing good out of love for God then you are sinning in doing good because it is only for selfish gain.Allah says if you dont do this or that I will burn you in hell.Even if you never sinned,what would that benefit Allah?The link between doing good and Allahs approval doesnt make sense to me.With the bible it is different.Humans are incapable of doing good.Even in doing good they have selfish motivations.The bible says people cannot do any good apart from God.You dont earn your way into heaven by doing good.You go to heaven by accepting Jesus as your savior and then do good in return because you love him and want to obey.Doing good and following laws to get into heaven has it all backwards.Thats a dreary relationship.A relationship based on fear and punishment.

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    Here is where the confidence in the Quranic manuscript comes from..

    this might be helpful.. it is very comprehensive:

    The Qur'anic Manuscripts
    lgshareen 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?.....
    There has been a polemic going on that the Qur'an does not have manuscripts from the first century of hijra. However, this is not true. Many fragments of early Qur'anic manuscripts were shown by Orientalists notably Nabia Abbott in her work The Rise of the North Arabic script and its Kur'anic development, with a full description of the Kur'an manuscripts in the Oriental Institute (1939, University of Chicago Press). There she discusses some of the Quranic manuscripts, dated from second half of the first century hijra onwards, at the Oriental Institute, University of Chicago. The aim of this page is to highlight some of the early Qur'anic manuscripts to refute the claim that the Qur'an lacks manuscripts from the first century of hijra.
    The dig at the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen, had found a large number of manuscripts of the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. The date of building the Great Mosque in Ṣanʿāʾ goes back to 6th year of hijra when the Prophet Muhammad entrusted one of his companions to build a mosque. The mosque was extended and enlarged by Islamic rulers from time to time. In 1385 H/1965 CE heavy rains fell on Ṣanʿāʾ. The Great Mosque was affected and the ceiling in the north west corner was damaged. During the survey, the workers discovered a large vault full of parchment and paper manuscripts of both the Qur'an and non-Qur'anic material.
    The UNESCO, an arm of the United Nations, had compiled a CD containing some of the dated Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts as a part of "Memory of the World" programme. In this CD there are more than 40 Qur'anic manuscripts which are dated from 1st century of hijra, one of them belonging to early 1st century. More than 45 manuscripts have been dated from the period 1st / 2nd century of hijra.We will be showing only a few examples below.
    A few more examples of the 1st and 1st / 2nd century Qur'anic manuscripts can be found in the book Maṣāḥif Ṣanʿāʾ (1985, Dār al-Athar al-Islāmiyyah). This book is a catalogue of an exhibition at the Kuwait National Museum, with articles by Hussa Sabah Salim al-Sabah, G. R. Puin, M. Jenkins, U. Dreibholz in both Arabic and English. It is expected that the Ṣanʿāʾ manuscripts will throw a great deal of light on the early Islamic history of calligraphy and illumination and even the various ahruf (they were seven) in which the Qur'an was revealed.
    A few words of caution concerning the dating of the Qur'anic manuscripts need to be mentioned. It is to be remembered that assigning a date to an undated early Qur'anic manuscript is rarely simple especially in the absence of wakf marking. There is a tendency to assume that those in large scripts and without vowels are of the earliest date. This assumption, true to some extent, is nevertheless misleading in two respects. It ignores that fact that small as well as large maṣāḥif of the Qur'an were among the earliest written and that both types continued to be written thereafter. Though the assumption that manuscripts with the vowels must be considered later than those without is true in some cases, it is not always so, for some very early manuscripts of the Qur'an, originally written without vowels, may well have been voweled later. Furthermore, the first vowel system came into use shortly after the first maṣāḥif were written. There are also examples of later maṣāḥif which were unvoweled even after 3 centuries after hijra!
    As a matter of caution, we stress the fact that we are only showing a single leaf of the manuscripts in the cases below. A manuscript may contain additional sūrahs. The reader is advised to go through the references for additional information.
    Looking for something similar? Try
    1. The Qur'anic Script & Palaeography
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... On The Origins Of The Kufic Script
    The Christian missionaries have claimed that the Kufic script originated not earlier than 150 years after hijra. They have argued that it is also the view of both Martin Lings and Yasin Safadi. This article is a devastating refutation of their claims.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The Dotting Of A Script And The Dating Of An Era: The Strange Neglect Of PERF 558, A. Jones, Islamic Culture, 1998, Volume LXXII, No. 4, pp. 95-103.
    It is usually assumed that the dotting of the Arabic script began with the advent of dotting of Qur'anic manuscripts. However, recent observation on a 70 year old Arabic papyri has shown conclusively that dotting was available as early as 22 AH, perhaps even earlier.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Radiocarbon (Carbon-14) Dating And The Qur'ānic Manuscripts
    Radiocarbon dating of ancient Qur'anic manuscripts in the literature is very rare. Can radiocarbon dating provide more accurate results than traditional palaeographic techniques and associated methods? A discussion of the scientific principles underpinning this radiometric dating technique, together with some practical examples from actual Qur'anic manuscripts, highlights the strengths and weaknesses of this procedure as compared to more traditional palaeographic based methods.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... From Alphonse Mingana To Christoph Luxenberg: Arabic Script & The Alleged Syriac Origins Of The Qur'an
    A path-breaking discourse or is it yet another headline grabbing exercise? You decide!
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Dated Texts Containing The Qur’an From 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE.
    The corpus of dated texts containing the Qur'an from 1-100 AH / 622-719 CE proving the early codification of the Qur'an in Arabic.
    2. Examples Of The Qur'anic Manuscripts
    THE ʿUTHMĀNIC MANUSCRIPTS
    No discussion about the Qur'anic manuscripts begins without the mention of the ʿUthmānic manuscripts of the Qur'an. Narrations differ as to how many copies were directly ordered and sent out by the Caliph ʿUthmān, but they range from four to seven. It seems certain from various Muslim historical sources that several were lost, through fire amongst other things. There are some copies that are attributed to ʿUthmān. However, it is to be added that there is a disagreement between the scholars whether they are truly ʿUthmānic. Some Western scholars have rejected the Qur'anic manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān as "pious forgeries" without showing any scientific evidence (i.e., study of the parchment, script, ink etc.). This itself is unscientific to an extreme. We will discuss some important manuscripts attributed to ʿUthmān below.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
    A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, commonly attributed to caliph ʿUthmān, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ʿUthmān's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey, From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
    This manuscript was written in Kufic script and contains 408 folios. The extant folios contain more than 99% of the text of the Qur'an. Only two folios are missing. The manuscript shows the script, illumination and marking of vowels that are from the Umayyad times (i.e., late 1st century / early 2nd century of hijra).
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
    A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The Al-Hussein Mosque Manuscript.
    FIRST CENTURY HIJRA
    There exist at least four Qur'anic manuscripts that are primarily dated to first half of the first century of hijra (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE). These are not the ‘Uthmanic Qur'ans and are parchments written in the ḥijazi script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Codex Ṣanʿāʾ – Inv. No. 01-27.1: Mid-1st Century Of Hijra.
    Perhaps the most significant manuscript of the Qur'an palimpsest so far discovered at Ṣanʿāʾ, this codex is datable to the middle of the first century of hijra. The leaves from codex Ṣanʿāʾ inv. 01-27.1 have appeared under the hammer at auction houses like Christie's, Sotheby's and Bonham's; the most recent one at Christie's in 2008 fetching a remarkable sum of £2,200,000, around fifteen times the estimated asking price. This codex exemplifies the principal tendencies of the early ḥijāzī script and is of tremendous importance regarding the textual transmission of the Qur'an, Arabic palaeography, codicology and other related disciplines. Below is a detailed description of some of the folios from this codex.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Luqmān And Sūrah al-Sajda.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This palimpsest from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra. An image acquired using ultraviolet photography is also shown in order to appreciate the improvement of contrast of the washed-off writing. This manuscript may have belonged to the same codex as the one discussed below.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah al-Sajda And Sūrah al-Ahzāb.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen. This manuscript from Ṣan‘a' is dated to first half of the first century of hijra by Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-‘Imran. Verses number : End Of Verse 45 To 54 And Part Of 55.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-Shura, Surah al-Zukhruf. Verses number : End Of Verse 49 Of Surah Al-Shura To Verse 31 Of Surah al-Zukhruf And Part Of 32.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    Below are the examples of the 1st century hijra manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī and the Kufic scripts.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Arabe 328a: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris.
    This is one of the most important manuscripts written in the ḥijāzī script from first century hijra. It has 58 folios; 56 of them at the the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris and one each at the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana and the Nasser David Khalili Collection. This manuscript has 58 folios which contains about 28% of the total text of the Qur'an.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Vat. Ar. 1605: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra In Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana.
    A manuscript from the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana [Vatican Library] written in the ḥijāzī script. This manuscript, one folio in the Nasser David Khalili Collection (Accession No. KFQ 60, published by Déroche) and 56 folios in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris (Arabe 328a) are parts of the same muṣḥaf. They all are dated to first century of hijra.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... MS. Or. 2165: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The 1st Century Hijra In The British Library.
    Hailed as by the earlier keepers of it as "probably the earliest Qur'an ever brought to Europe", the British Library says that it is the "oldest Qur'an manuscript" in their possession. This manuscript is written in the ḥijāzī (or ma'il) script. It is usually dated around the mid-second century of hijra. However, a recent study by Yasin Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to the first century Qur'anic manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in the Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before the Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being safer. This manuscript has 121 folios which contains about 53% of the total text of the Qur'an.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The “Great Umayyad Qur'ān” From The Time Of Caliph Al-Walīd, Late 1st Century Hijra.
    This monumental and the earliest Kufic Qur'anic manuscript, perhaps one of the most well-studied and is dated to the last decade of the 1st century of hijra, around 710 - 715 CE, in the reign of the Umayyad Caliph al-Walīd. This manuscript is unique in the sense that it open with a group of full page images. These images are the only known Qur'an illustrations and are absolutely unique among extant Qur'an manuscripts. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The ‘Mingana Palimpsest’ – A Manuscript Containing Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
    Mrs. Agnes Smith Lewis was the first scholar to publish this unique palimpsest that has scriptio superior which is a Christian material (Arabic Christian homilies) and the scriptio inferior consisting of the Qur'anic verses. Mingana presented a full transcription of the Qur'anic text of the scriptio inferior of the manuscript, with the parallel text from the present day Qur'an. But his claim of "variants" in the Qur'anic text has come under suspicion partly because of his own history of being involved in suspected forgeries. Recent study by Fedeli on this manuscript has confirmed that the "inevitable and easy conclusion" is that all of Mingana's transcription can be suspected to be wrong. A recent surge of interest in this manuscript is due to the fact that the scriptio inferior was written in the ḥijāzī script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... An ‘Umayyad’ Fragment Of The Qur'ān From 1st Century Hijra.
    This private-owned fragment of the Qur'an was recently published by Yasin Dutton. On the basis of palaeography and radiocarbon analysis, he dated it to the second half of the 1st century of hijra / late 7th or early 8th century CE.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-An‘am. Verses number : Part Of Verse 5 To 19 And Part Of 20.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-Nahl. Verses number : End Of Verse 73 To 88 And Part Of 89.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Part Of Sūrah Maryam & Sūrah Ṭāhā.
    This folio has probably been written by two different copyists as the script in the first half is different from the second. It is italic in the first half and regular in the second half of the fragment except for the letter alīf. The ornamentation here is simple. Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Qur'anic Manuscript In The Ḥijazi Script From c. 700 CE.
    Eight leaves (one fragmentary), 20-27 lines to the page written in brown ḥijāzī script, diacritical marks, where present, consists of oval dots or angled dashes, no vowel points, clusters of brown ink dots to indicate verse divisions, circular devices consisting of green and red dots every ten verses, one long, narrow rectangular panel of green and red decoration with a circular marginal device consisting of coloured dots on final folio, probably to indicate the sūrah heading of Sūrah al-Nisa, leaves sewn together with original stitching. It contains Sūrah āl-‘Imrān, verses 34-184.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 2: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra.
    A manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna, written in the ḥijāzī script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Qur'anic Manuscript From 1st Century Hijra: Surah al-Ma'idah. Verses 7 Through 12.
    A manuscript from the Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain, written in the Kufic script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... P. Michaélidès No. 32 - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
    Manuscript from the Collection George Michaélidès, Cairo (Egypt) written in the Kufic(?) script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Ma‘il Manuscript in Kuwait - A Qur'anic Manuscript From First Century Hijra.
    Manuscript from the Tariq Rajab Museum, Kuwait. Written in the ma‘il script [External Link].
    FIRST / SECOND CENTURY HIJRA
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Codex Mixt. 917 – A Qur'ānic Manuscript From 1st / 2nd Century Hijra.
    This manuscript was written in either the late ḥijāzī or kufic script and contains 105 folios. The extant folios contain about 27% of the text of the Qur'an. A rare form of punctuation is also displayed in this manuscript corroborating its eighth century CE dating.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-Isra' (17) Verses Number: From 20 To 22 And Part Of 23.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-Kahf (18) Verses Number: Part Of 17 To 27 And Part Of 28.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-Mumtahinah (60) Verses Number: Part Of 4 To 8 And Part Of 9.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    SECOND CENTURY HIJRA
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah al-Tawba, Surah Yunus: Part Of 129 From Surah Al-Tawba To Part Of 4 From Surah Yunus.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 203: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 201: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 213: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The Beginning Of 2nd Century Hijra.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 186: A Qur'anic Manuscript From Middle Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Library.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Kufic script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 202: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 207: A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in the Makkan script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Perg. 27: A Qur'anic Manuscript From The End Of 2nd Century Hijra In The Austrian National Museum.
    Manuscript from the Austrian National Library, Vienna. Written in themashq script.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At Tashkent (Samarqand), Uzbekistan, From 2nd Century Hijra.
    This famous manuscript, also known as the Samarqand manuscript, housed in Tashkent, is commonly attributed to Caliph ‘Uthman. A folio from a Qur'anic manuscript in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, has recently been subject to radiocarbon tests at Oxford, United Kingdom. Although the dates generated by this radiometric technique at either confidence level do not rule out the possibility that this manuscript was produced in ‘Uthman's time, palaeographic studies suggest an 8th century (2nd century hijra) date.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The "Qur'ān Of ʿUthmān" At St. Petersburg (Russia), Katta Langar, Bukhārā And Tashkent (Uzbekistan), From 2nd Century Hijra.
    A manuscript written in the late ḥijāzī script, containing about 40% of the text of the Qur'an, with full texts of 22 surahs and fragments of another 22.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... One Of The Earliest Dated Qur'anic Manuscript (107 AH / 725 CE) At Egyptian National Library.
    An example of one of the earliest dated Qur'anic manuscripts at the Dar al-Kutub al-Misriyya (Egyptian National Library), Cairo (Egypt).
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... A Kufic Manuscript in the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies - A Qur'anic Manuscript From 2nd Century Hijra.
    A manuscript from the King Faisal Centre For Research and Islamic Studies, Saudi Arabia, written in Kufic script [External Link].
    SECOND / THIRD CENTURY HIJRA
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah Al-Ma'idah, Surah al-An‘am. Part Of 117 (Surah Al-Ma'idah) To Part Of 1 Of Surah Al-An‘am.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah Al-Baqarah. Part Of 80 To Part Of 81.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Surah Al-Mursalat. 5 To 26 And Part Of 27.
    Located at Dār al-Makhtūtāt, Ṣanʿāʾ, Yemen.
    SOME UNIQUE MANUSCRIPTS
    EXTERNAL LINKS TO THE QUR'ANIC MANUSCRIPTS
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Professor Brannon Wheeler's Qur'an Manuscripts Page
    It contains a healthy collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dated from 1st century of hijra onwards till 14th century of hijra in various scripts such as ma'il, kufic, thuluth, bihari, diwani, andalusi, maghribi and nastaliq.
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The Schøyen Collection, National Library Of Norway
    It has some good collection of Qur'anic manuscripts dating from as early as 2nd century of hijra.
    3. The Qira'at In The Qur'anic Manuscripts Early Qur'anic manuscripts, unlike the modern printed editions, rarely contain information of the Qira'at in which they were written. Deciphering the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts is a recent endeavour and a very tedious task. Scholars like Nabia Abbott had only mentioned about Qira'at in the manuscripts in a very cursory way. Recently, in-depth studies have been undertaken to decipher the Qira'at in the Qur'anic manuscripts by Dr. Yasin Dutton of University of Edinburgh. He has been looking into various Qur'anic manuscripts to understand the purpose of using various coloured dots in the writing of the Qur'an and studying the consonantal structure (where dotting is nearly absent as in early Qur'ans written in ḥijazi or ma'il script) to find out the Qira'at in which the Qur'an manuscript was written. Here are a few examples of the manuscripts in which the Qira'at has been identified.We will also mention Dr. Dutton's publications and provide a brief overview. This section is primarily for those who have access to journals in their libraries.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Y. Dutton, "An Early Mushaf According To The Reading Of Ibn ‘Amir", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2001, Volume III (no. I), pp. 71-89.
    This study is based on 1st century Qur'anic manuscript "Arabe 328a" in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, written in ḥijazi (or ma'il) script. This manuscript has enough material to be able to ascertain the reading it represents. This manuscript is almost devoid of dotting and hence the consonantal structure is used to determine the Qira'at and it was found to be that of Ibn ‘Amir (d. 118 / 736) - one of the reading later to be declared indisputably mutawatir by Ibn Mujahid (d. 324 / 926). This study is first of its kind on early Qur'anic manuscripts.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Y. Dutton, "Some Notes On The British Library's 'Oldest Qur'an Manuscript' (Or. 2165)", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2004, Volume VI (no. 1), pp. 43-71.
    The study by Dr. Dutton has shown that this manuscript is remarkably similar to first century manuscript MS. Arabe 328a in Bibliothèque Nationale, Paris, and was written in the Qira'at of Ibn ‘Amir. Based on the similarity between MS. Arabe 328a and MS. Or. 2165, he suggests redating this manuscript to the time just before Umayyad Caliph Walid (r. 86-96 AH), i.e., within the period 30-85 AH with the latter end of this time scale being the safer.
    redarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part I", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 1999, Volume I (no. I), pp. 115-140.
    dummy 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?.....Y. Dutton, "Red Dots, Green Dots, Yellow Dots & Blue: Some Reflections On The Vocalisation Of Early Qur'anic Manuscripts - Part II", Journal Of Qur'anic Studies, 2000, Volume II (no. I), pp. 1-24.
    This two-part detailed study is done on the Qur'anic manuscripts from Bodleian Library (Oxford) that date from 3rd / 4th century of hijra. The broad conclusions of this study are:

    1. Variants, including shadhdh variants, are not only marked, but in a sense, highlighted by the use of different coloured dots.
    2. The presence of shadhdh variants alongside Seven, Ten or Fourteen Qira'a suggests that the shadhdh variants were treated as seriously as the main readings by those responsible for vocalization.
    3. The vocalized manuscript enables us to have some idea of the reading, or readings, represented. Where there are only single or limited folios available this is not usually possible, but where there is either a distinctive feature, or enough of a sufficiently well-vocalized manuscript, it is often possible to fix the reading with some precision.
    4. The Qur'anic Manuscripts In Museums, Institutes, Libraries & Collections
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Beit al-Qur'an, Manama, Bahrain (See the manuscripts from 1st and 1st/2nd century of hijra).
    sarrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... The Institute Of Oriental Studies, Russian Academy of Sciences, St. Petersburg, Russia (See the manuscript from 1st/2nd century of hijra).


    it isn't as comprehensive as a history of Quranic text from revelation to compilation, but it will do for your purposes...

    2- I can say in a matter of course that you haven't read the Quran.. had you done, you'd have seen many differences between it and your bible.. and again I won't deleve into this, since if you are interested in similarities or differences you'd simply read it.
    3- we don't believe in self-immolating men/gods who pray to themselves before sacrificing themselves.. breaking all the laws of the OT for something as silly as eating our sins in advance..
    if god wanted to eat sins in advance, then I am sure he wouldn't mind accepting into heaven, muslims who lead a far more righteous life than christians forgoing organ playing and hand clapping for proper fast/prayer/charity and pilgrimage..

    so at the end of the day it is all about what rocks your world.. a dying man/god worthy fairy tales fit for children 'Narnia style' or a God who is one, indivisible and there are none like unto him?

    I personally think the choice is rather simple for folks who openly reflect..

    all the best
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?.....


  4. #3
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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    repeat post but would like to comment that.. the fear and punishment thing is rather the product of your creative churches who for centuries weren't content to lie in their own scriptures but to distort the image of Islam.. perhaps if they'd take the time to learn the religion they'd not be so notoriously met with so much resistance .. after all who wants to leave the path of enlightenment into the depth of the dark ages? and I say this with utmost respect of course!

    all the best
    Last edited by جوري; 06-20-2009 at 12:36 AM.
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    Text without context is pretext
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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    hurch Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible
    M S M Saifullah, Qasim Iqbal & Muhammad Ghoniem
    © Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.
    Last Modified: 31st August 1999

    dummy 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Assalamu-alaikum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu:
    The basis of evaluation of any hadîth (story or report) in Islam of any text concerned particularly with religion is based on the study of matn (i.e., text) and its isnad (i.e., chain of narration).
    A hadîth (pl. ahâdîth) is composed of two parts: the matn (text) and the isnad (chain of reporters). A text may seem to be logical and reasonable but it needs an authentic isnad with reliable reporters to be acceptable; cAbdullah b. al-Mubârak (d. 181 AH), one of the illustrious teachers of Imâm al-Bukhârî, said, "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."[1]
    The Christian 'hadîth' is composed of matn (text) but no isnad (chain of narration). Without isnad, as cAbdullah b. al-Mubarak said, anyone can claim anything saying that it is coming from the authority. The authorities in the case of Christian 'hadîth' are the Apostles and later day Church Fathers. But how can one be sure that the Christian 'hadîth' is not mixed with falsehood without the proper isnad and its verification?
    The Old Testament, to certain extent and the New Testament in toto lack chain of narration. When this argument was put forward, the Christian missionary Jochen Katz wrote:
    On 8 Oct 1998, Jochen Katz wrote (on a different thread):

    > That is a bogus argument from an Islamic point of view.
    Missionaries when cornered try to wiggle out of the argument by calling names. According to Katz, the Islamic argument of using the chain of narration, i.e., isnad, is 'bogus' because the New Testament and major part of Old Testament lacks it and above all it is a Muslim argument. By calling the Islamic argument of isnad 'bogus' Katz thought that he is already refuted it. Unfortunately, the Orientalists like Bernard Lewis who read this 'bogus' Islamic tradition and compares it with the Christian scholarship say that:
    From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.[2]
    So, after all this Islamic science of hadîth, called 'bogus' by Katz, was so advanced that its Christian counterparts were far far away from its sophistication. Futher where does it sophistication lie?
    . . . it would have been easy to invent sayings of Muhammad. Because the cultural background of the Arabs had been oral the evidence that came to be expected was the chain of names of those who had passed on the anecdote containing the saying . . . The study of Traditions rapidly became a distinct branch of the studies of the general religious movement. It was soon realized that false Traditions were in circulation with sayings that Muhammad could not possibly have uttered. The chains of transmitters were therefore carefully scrutinised to make sure that the persons named could in fact have met one another, that they could be trusted to repeat the story accurately, and that they did not hold any heretical views. This implied extensive biographical studies; and many biographical dictionaries have been preserved giving the basic information about a man's teachers and pupils, the views of later scholars (on his reliability as a transmitter) and the date of his death. This biography-based critique of Traditions helped considerably to form a more or less common mind among many men throughout the caliphate about what was to be accepted and what rejected.[3]
    If the Muslim traditions have been bogus, how come the Jews did not understand this and went on to use the great works composed by Muslims? Saadia Gaon, the famous Jewish linguist, says:
    Saadia expresses himself unreservedly about his indebtness to Arabic authors, who served him as models in the composition of his work. "It is reported," he says, "that one of the worthies among the Ishmaelites, realizing to his sorrow that the people do not use the Arabic language correctly, wrote a short treatise for them. From which they might learn proper usages. Similarly, I have noticed that many of the Israelites even the common rules for the correct usage of our (Hebrew) language, much less the more difficult rules, so that when they speak in prose most of it is faulty, and when they write poetry only a few of the ancient rules are observed, and majority of them are neglected. This has induced me to compose a work in two parts containing most of the (Hebrew) words.[4]
    Guillaume informs us in his preface of the book The Legacy Of Islam:
    Since the beginning of the nineteenth century there has been a constant recourse to Arabic for the explanation of rare words and forms in Hebrew; for Arabic though more than a thousand years junior as a literary language, is the senior philosophically by countless centuries. Perplexing phenomenon in Hebrew can often be explained as solitary and archaic survivals of the form which are frequent and common in the cognate Arabic. Words and idioms whose precise sense had been lost in Jewish tradition, receive a ready and convincing explanation from the same source. Indeed no serious student of the Old Testament can afford to dispense with a first-hand knowledge in Arabic. The pages of any critical commentary on the Old Testament will illustrate the debt of the Biblical exegesis owes to Arabic.[5]
    It turns out that the same tradition which Katz addressed as 'bogus' result in the exegesis of his own scriptures, the Old Testament.

    Since Christianity did not have anything like the 'tradition' to evaluate their own material, we see quite a lot of differences. Let us now examine the great tradition of the Church which Katz wants Muslims to trust and also to see which tradition is really bogus.

    This document is divided into the following:

    1. Church Tradition & The Bible

    It must be made clear that there is nothing like one Bible with a set of books. The number of books in the Bible actually depend upon the Church one follows. Therefore if we follow the Church tradition we end with following Bibles. They differ in number of books in both the Old Testament and the New Testament:

    Protestant Church

    Historically, Protestant churches have recognized the Hebrew canon as their Old Testament, although differently ordered, and with some books divided so that the total number of books is thirty-nine. These books, as arranged in the traditional English Bible, fall into three types of literature: seventeen historical books (Genesis to Esther), five poetical books ( Job to Song of Solomon), and seventeen prophetical books. With the addition of another twenty-seven books (the four Gospels, Acts, twenty-one letters, and the book of Revelation), called the New Testament, the Christian scriptures are complete.[6]
    Roman Catholic Church
    The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.[7]
    Anglican Church
    The Anglican church falls between the Catholic church and many Protestant denominations by accepting only the Jewish canon and the New Testament as authoritative, but also by accepting segments of the apocryphal writings in the lectionary and liturgy. At one time all copies of the Authorized or King James Version of 1611 included the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments.[8]
    Greek Orthodox Church
    The Bible of the Greek Orthodox church comprises all of the books accepted by the Roman Catholic church, plus I Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, and 3 Maccabees. The Slavonic canon adds 2 Esdras, but designates I and 2 Esdras as 2 and 3 Esdras. Other Eastern churches have 4 Maccabees as well.[9](See below)
    Coptic Church
    Athanasius issued his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle not only in the Greek but also in Coptic, in a slightly different form - though the list of the twenty seven books of the New Testament is the same in both languages. How far, however the list remained authoritative for the Copts is problematical. The Coptic (Bohairic) translation of the collection knowns as the Eighty-Five Apostlic Canons concludes with a different sequence of the books of the New Testament and is enlarged by the addition of two others: the four Gospels; the Acts of the Apostles; the fourteen Epistles of Paul (not mentioned individually); two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; the Apocalypse of John; the two Epistles of Clement.[10]
    Ethiopic (Abyssinian) Church
    Until 1959, the Ethiopic Church was under the jurisdiction of the head of Coptic Church. Hence it is not surprising that its canon of Scripture should parallel in some respects that of the Coptic Church.
    The Ethiopic church has the largest Bible of all, and distinguishes different canons, the "narrower" and the "broader," according to the extent of the New Testament. The Ethiopic Old Testament comprises the books of the Hebrew Bible as well as all of the deuterocanonical books listed above, along with Jubilees, I Enoch, and Joseph ben Gorion's (Josippon's) medieval history of the Jews and other nations. The New Testament in what is referred to as the "broader" canon is made up of thirty-five books, joining to the usual twenty-seven books eight additional texts, namely four sections of church order from a compilation called Sinodos, two sections from the Ethiopic Book of the Covenant, Ethiopic Clement, and Ethiopic Didascalia. When the "narrower" New Testament canon is followed, it is made up of only the familiar twenty-seven books, but then the Old Testament books are divided differently so that they make up 54 books instead of 46. In both the narrower and broader canon, the total number of books comes to 81.[11]
    Bruce Metzger in his book The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development elaborates more on the books accepted by Ethiopic Church. The'broader' Canon of Ethiopic New Testament consists of the following thirty five books:
    The four Gospels
    Acts
    The (seven) Catholic Epistles
    The (fourteen) Epistles of Paul
    The Book of Revelation
    Sinodos (four sections)
    Clement
    The Book of the Covenant (two sections)
    Didascalia
    The contents of the last four titles in the list are as follows. The Sinodos is a book of church order, comprising an extensive collection of canons, prayers, and instructions attributed to Clement of Rome.
    Clement (Qalementos) is a book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement. It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the three parts of the Sinodos that are sometimes called 1, 2, and 3 Clement, nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.
    The Book of Covenant (Mashafa kidan) is counted as two parts. The first part of sixty sections comprises chiefly material on church order; section 61 is a discourse of the Lord to his disciples after his resurrection, similar to the Testamentum Domini.
    The Ethiopic Didascalia (Didesqelya) is a book of Church order in forty-three chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of so-called Apostlic Constitutions.[12]
    Syriac Church
    Let us also not forget the Syriac Churches which used to deal with Diatesseron, the four-in-one Gospel, introduced by Tatian which was read in the Syriac Churches for quite some time before it was replaced by Pe****ta. Pe****ta has again a different number of Books in the New Testament.
    This represents for the New Testament an accomodation of the canon of the Syrians with that of the Greeks. Third Corinthians was rejected, and, in addition to the fourteen Pauline Epistles (including Hebrews, following Philemon), three longer Catholic Epistles (James, 1 Peter, and 1 John) were included. The four shorter Catholic Epistles (2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude) and the Apocalypse are absent from the Pe****ta Syriac version, and thus the Syriac canon of the New Testament contained but twenty-two writings. For a large part of the Syrian Church this constituted the closing of the canon, for after the Council of Ephesus (AD 431) the East Syrians separated themselves as Nestorians from the Great Church.[13]
    Pe****ta is still followed by the Christians in the sourthern state of Kerala in India.
    Still today the official lectionary followed by the Syrian Orthodox Church, with headquarters at Kottayam (Kerala), and the Chaldean Syriac Church, also known as the the Church of the East (Nestorian), with headquarters at Trichur (Kerala), presents lessons from only the twenty-two books of Pe****ta, the version to which appeal is made for the settlement of doctrinal questions.[14]
    To make the issue clearer, we are here dealing with different number of books of New Testament followed by different churches all over the world. These are not the different translations of the Bible, the argument which Christian missionaries use to brush the problem under the carpet. Calling another church heretical is not going to work the problem out because there was no single book right from the beginning of Christianity which constituted the New Testament as we would see later, inshallah. The New Testament as we see today, depends upon the Church again(!), is a product of centuries worth of metamorphosis. Under "Canon of the New Testament" the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
    The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.[15]
    So, the great Church tradition has not made up her mind on the Bible.
    Now this would be big enough problem for the Christian missionaries to ruminate, inshallah. Let us now go into the issue of what the Apostolic Fathers refer to during their time.
    2. Church Tradition & Apostolic Fathers

    It is a frequent claim by the Christian missionaries that the Church Fathers believed that the New Testament was considered as 'inspired' Scripture.

    Bruce M Metzger, a noted authority on the New Testament, analyzing the Apostolic Fathers viz., Clement of Rome, Ignatius, the Didache, fragments of Papias, Barnabas, Hermas of Rome, and the so-called 2 Clement concludes the following:
    Clement Of Rome
    By way of summary, we see that Clement's Bible is the Old Testament, to which he refers repeated as Scripture, quoting it with more or less exactness. Clement also makes occasional reference to certain words of Jesus; though they are authoritative to him, he does not appear to enquire how their authenticity is ensured. In two of the three instances that he speaks of remembering 'the words' of Christ or of the Lord Jesus, it seems that he has a written record in mind, but he does not call it a 'gospel'. He knows several of Paul's epistles, and values them highly for their content; the same can be said of the Epistle of the Hebrews with which he is well acquainted. Although these writings obviously possess for Clement considerable significance, he never refers to them as authoritative 'Scripture'.[16]
    Ignatius Of Antioch
    The upshot of all this is that the primary authority for Ignatius was the apostolic preaching about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, though it made little difference to him whether it was oral or written. He certainly knew a collection of Paul's epistles, including (in the order of frequency of his use of them) 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Romans, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians, and 1 Thessalonians. It is probable that he knew the Gospels according to Matthew and John, and perhaps also Luke. There is no evidence that he regarded any of these Gospels or Epistles as 'Scripture'.[17]
    The Didache
    The Didache is a short manual or moral instruction and Church practice. The Church history writer Eusebius and Athanasius even considered to be on the fringe of the New Testament Canon[18]. Assigning the composition of Didache has ranged from first century to fourth century by the scholars, but most of them prefer to assign it in the first half of the second century[19]. Metzger summarizes the book as:
    By way of summary, we can see from Didache that itinerant apostles and Prophets still find an important place in the life of the Church, but this authority is declining. Their activity is surrounded by all sorts of precautions and rests ultimately on the authority of the traditional teaching deriving from the Lord, whose manner they must exhibit: 'Not everyone who speaks in a spirit is a prophet, except he have the ways of the Lord. By their ways, then, the false prophet and the true prophet shall be distinguished' (xi. 8). The author refers to the gospel, but he cites only words of Jesus. This 'gospel', which is without doubt the Gospel according to Matthew, is not regarded as a necessary source from which the words of the Lord, with indispensable warrants, come to the faithful, but quite simply as a convenient collection of these words.[20]
    Papias Of Heirapolis
    By way of summary, Papias stands as a kind of bridge between the oral and written stages in the transmission of the gospel tradition. Although he professes to have a marked preference for the oral tradition, one nevertheless sees at work the causes that, more and more, would lead to the rejection of that form of tradition in favour of written gospels. On the whole, therefore, the testimony of Papias concerning the development of the canon of the New Testament is significant chiefly in reflecting the usage of the community in which devotion to oral tradition hindered the development of a clear idea of canonicity.[21]
    Barnabas
    Epistle of Barnabas is a theological tract. Both Clement of Alexandria and Origen valued the work highly and attributed its composition Barnabas, the companion and co-worker of the apostle Paul.
    Metzger summarizes the position of Barnabas concerning the scripture as the following.
    By way of summary, one can see that for Barnabas the Scriptures are what we call the Old Testament, including several books outside the Hebrew canon. Most of his contacts with the Synoptic traditions involve simple sentences that might well have been known to a Christian of that time from oral tradition. As against the single instance of his using the formula, 'it is written', in introducing the statement, 'Many are called, but few are chosen', must be placed his virtual neglect of the New Testament. If, on the other hand, he wrote shortly before or after 130, the focus of his subject matter would not make it necessary to do much quoting from New Testament books - if indeed he knew many of them. In either case he provides no evidence for the development of the New Testament canon.[22]
    Polycarp Of Smyrna
    By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hebrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John. As for the Gospels, he cites as sayings of the Lord phrases that we find in Matthew and Luke. With one exception, none of Polycarp's many allusions is cited as Scripture - and that exception, as we have seen, is held by some to have been mistakenly attributed to the Old Testament. At the same time Polycarp's mind is not only saturated with ideas and phrases derived from a considerable number of writings that later came to be regarded as New Testament Scriptures, but he also displays latent respect for these apostolic documents as possessing an authority lacking in other writings. Polycarp, as Grant remarks, 'clearly differentiates the apostolic age from his own time and, presumably for this reason, does not use the letters of Ignatius as authoritiesóeven though they "contain faith, endurance, and all the edification which pertains to our Lord" (xiii. 2)'.[23]
    Hermas Of Rome
    By way of summary, it is obvious that Hermas was not given to making quotations from literature; in fact, the only actual book anywhere named and quoted in the Shepherd ( Vis. ii. 3) is an obscure Jewish apocalypse known as the book of Eldad and Modat. Despite reminiscences from Matthew, Ephesians, and James, Hermas makes no comment that would lead us to think that he regarded them as canonical Scripture. From the testimony contained in the Shepherd, it can in any case be observed how uneven during the course of the second century was the development of the idea of the canon.[24]
    The So-Called Second Epistle Of Clement
    This work is not the genuine work of Clement of Rome. This is regarded as an early Christian sermon. The style of this work is different from that of 1 Clement. Both date and composition of this work are difficult to determine. It was probably written around 150 CE. Metzger summarizes the contents of this work as:
    By way of recapitulation, the unknown author of 2 Clement certainly knew and used Matthew and Luke, 1 Corinthians and Ephesians. There is no trace of the Johannine Gospel or Epistles, or of the Book of Acts. And one can not say more than that he may have known Hebrews, James, and 1 Peter. Of the eleven times he cites words of Jesus, five are not to be found in the canonical Gospels. The presence of these latter, as well as the citation in xi. 2-4 of an apocryphal book of the Old Testament, introduced as 'the prophetic word', shows that our homilist's quotations of divinely authoritative words are not controlled by any strict canonical idea, even in relation to Old Testament writings.[25]
    After studying the writings of all the Apostolic Fathers, Bruce Metzger concludes that:
    For early Jewish Christians the Bible consisted of the Old Testament and some Jewish apocryphal literature. Along with this written authority went traditions, chiefly oral, of sayings attributed to Jesus. On the other hand, authors who belonged to the 'Hellenistic Wing' of the Church refer more frequently to writings that later came to be included in the New Testament. At the same time, however, they very rarely regarded such documents as 'Scripture'.
    Furthermore, there was as yet no conception of the duty of exact quotation from books that were not yet in the full sense canonical. Consequently, it is sometimes exceedingly difficult to ascertain which New Testament books were known to early Christian writers; our evidence does not become clear until the end of second century.[26]
    We have evidence of the spotty development and treatment of the writings later regarded as the New Testament in the second and third centuries CE. Gradually written Gospels, and collections of epistles, different ones in different regions, became to be more highly regarded.

    So for 200 years or so there was nothing like New Testament to begin with. The great Church tradition did not even bother to collect the 'Scriptures' between two covers!

    3. Church Tradition & The Early Lists Of The Books Of The New Testament
    Now when the Church tradition finally started to make up her mind on compiling the New Testament various lists of books in the Canons of the Bible were drawn. Bruce Metzger gives the following list of the Canons of the Bible drawn at different times in the 'western' Church. Please note that we still do not have the great deal of idea about how many lists were drawn in the Eastern Churches such as Coptic and Ethiopic. The following are the canons drawn at various points of time in the Church history.
    To complete the thoughts about how the New Testament evolved, a brief survey of early lists of the books of the New Testament is necessary. The list is taken from Appendix IV of Bruce Metzger's The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development[27].


    The earliest exact reference to the 'complete' New Testament as we now know it was in the year 367 CE, in a letter by Athanasius. This did not settle the matter. Varying lists continued to be drawn up by different church authorities as can be seen from above.

    The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the authority for the Canon and the interpretation of scripture, therefore the owner of the list of 27 books. Nevertheless, according to the
    Catholic Encyclopedia, entry "Canon of NT" proclaims that 20 books of the New Testament are inherently worth more than the 7 deuterocanonical books (Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation), acknowledging that the authenticity or reliability of them had already been challenged by ancient Christian authorities.
    The Catholic New Testament, as defined by the Council of Trent, does not differ, as regards the books contained, from that of all Christian bodies at present. Like the Old Testament, the New has its deuterocanonical books and portions of books, their canonicity having formerly been a subject of some controversy in the Church. These are for the entire books: the Epistle to the Hebrews, that of James, the Second of St. Peter, the Second and Third of John, Jude, and Apocalypse; giving seven in all as the number of the New Testament contested books. The formerly disputed passages are three: the closing section of St. Mark's Gospel, xvi, 9-20 about the apparitions of Christ after the Resurrection; the verses in Luke about the bloody sweat of Jesus, xxii, 43, 44; the Pericope Adulteræ, or narrative of the woman taken in adultery, St. John, vii, 53 to viii, 11. Since the Council of Trent it is not permitted for a Catholic to question the inspiration of these passages.[28]
    We will deal more with the individual books (i.e., Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude, Revelation) later, inshallah.

    4. Church Tradition & 'Inspiration' Of New Testament Books

    Whatever this word 'inspiration' means in the Church tradition to select the books, it does not mean what it actually means. A small list of the following books which are not there in the present day New Testament were at once time considered 'inspired'. Going further in history as the concept of New Testament 'Canon' evolved many books were considered 'inspired' which we do not see in the Bibles of 20th century. A brief survey of those books would be considered here.

    The Didache:

    Several of the writings of the Apostolic Fathers were for a time regarded in some localities as authoritative. The Didache was used both by Clement of Alexandria and by Origen as Scripture, and there is evidence that during the following century it continued to be so regarded in Egypt.[29]
    Epistle of Clement:
    The text of the (First) Epistle of Clement is contained, along with a portion of the so-called Second Epistle of Clement, at the end of the fifth-century Codex Alexandrinus of the Greek Bible (the manuscript is defective at the end). Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen all made use of the epistle. We know that about A.D. 170 it was customary to read 1 Clement in public services of worship at Corinth.[30]
    Epistle of Barnabas:
    The Epistle of Barnabas was for a time on the fringe of the canon. Clement of Alexandria regarded it as of sufficient importance to write a commentary on it in his Hypotyposes, now lost. Origen calls it 'catholic', a term that he elsewhere applies to 1 Peter and 1 John. It stands after the New Testament in the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus of the Greek Bible.[31]
    Shepherd of Hermas:
    The Shepherd of Hermas was used as Scripture by Irenaeus, Tertullian (before his conversion to Montanism), Clement of Alexandria, and Origen, though according to Origen it was not generally read in church. The Muratorian Canon reflects the esteem in which the work was held at the time that list was compiled, but according to the unknown compiler, it might be read but not proclaimed as Scripture in church.[32]
    Furthermore, Clement of Alexandria had a very 'open' canon, i.e., he did not mind using the materials of pagans, 'heretics' and other Christian literature.[33] It is worthwhile reminding here that we have already seen different set of books in Ethiopic and Coptic Church.

    5. Church Tradition & Manuscripts

    As much as there is a variation is the canons of the Bible as well as in its 'inspiration', it is reflected in the manuscripts too. Below is some material taken from
    The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Under "Text, NT". Interestingly enough, this section starts with The Problem. Many Christian apologists prefer to brush this well-known problem under the carpet as if it does not exist!
    THE PROBLEM. The NT is now known, whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS alone. Every one of these handwritten copics differ from every other one. In addition to these Greek MSS, the NT has been preserved in more than ten thousand MSS of the early versions and in thousands of quotations of the Church Fathers. These MSS of the versions and quotations of the Church Fathers differ from one another just as widely as do the Greek MSS. Only a fraction of this great mass of material has been fully collated and carefully studied. Until this task is completed, the uncertainty regarding the text of the NT will remain.

    It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings. It is true, of course, that the addition of the readings from another 150 MSS of Luke would not add another 30,000 readings to the list. But each MS studied does add substantially to the list of variants. It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the NT in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform.

    Many thousands of these different readings are variants in orthography or grammar or style and however effect upon the meaning of the text. But there are many thousands which have a definite effect upon the meaning of the text. It is true that not one of these variant readings affects the substance of Christian dogma. It is equally true that many of them do have theological significance and were introduced into the text intentionally. It may not, e.g., affect the substance of Christian dogma to accept the reading "Jacob the father of Joseph, and Joseph (to whom the virgin Mary was betrothed) the father of Jesus who is called 'Christ'" (Matt. 1:16), as does the Sinaitic Syriac; but it gives rise to a theological problem.

    It has been said that the great majority of the variant readings in the text of the NT arose before the books of the NT were canonized and that after those books were canonized, they were very carefully copied because they were scripture. This, however, is far from being the case.

    It is true, of course, that many variants arose in the very earliest period. There is no reason to suppose, e.g., that the first person who ever made a copy of the autograph of thc Gospel of Luke did not change his copy to conform to the particular tradition with which he was familiar. But he was under no compulsion to do so. Once the Gospel of Luke had become scripture, however, the picture was changed completely. Then the copyist was under compulsion to change his copy, to correct it. Because it was scripture, it had to be right.
    [34]
    After reading all this, does not the Muslim position of the corruption of the Bible hold water? And of course, again which Bible manuscript is inspired?

    Now we all know that none of the variants that are there in the Bible have a chain of narration or isnad. So it is very hard to say which one or ones is the true reading and the other the bogus one. So, futher on we read:

    Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the NT were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. Many were created for theological or dogmatic reasons (even though they may not affect the substance of Christian dogma). It is because the books of the NT are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading. His interest was not in the "original reading but in the "true reading." This is precisely the attitude toward the NT which prevailed from the earliest times to the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the invention of printing. The thousands of Greek MSS, MSS of the versions, and quotations of the Church Fathers provide the source for our knowledge of the earliest or original text of the NT and of the history of the transmission of that text before the invention of printing.[34]
    Now if you do not know what the "original reading" is, then there is no point talking about 'believing' in what is supposed to be the "original" reading. So, this is the great Christian Church tradition which cannot even produce two identical manuscripts! Furthermore on "original" reading one can say that since there are no original manuscripts, there is not point talking about "original" reading at all. This search for "original" reading would be a guess work or 'consensus'. Indeed the Acts of Apostles has earned the notoriety for the variant readings.
    In fact no book of the NT gives evidence of so much verbal variation as does the Acts of Apostles. Besides the text represented in the oldest uncial Greek MSS, begin with the Codex Vaticanus, often called the Neutral Text and dating back to the second century AD, there is evidence either of a consistent alternative text equally old, or of a series of early miscellaneous variants, to which the name Western text is traditionally applied. The ancient authorities of the Western Text of Acts include only one Greek (or rather bilingual Greek and Latin) uncial MS, Codex Bezae of the fifth or sixth century. But the variants often have striking content and strong early support from Latin writers and Latin NT MSS. It now appears that while both the Neutral and Western texts were in circulation, the former is the more likely of the two to represent the original.[35]
    Apart from the notorious variation, we also have the problem of which text is the original text. Since we do not know which one is original, the guess work in pressed into service. This is one such example of guess work. And how come guess work leads to truth?
    We have already seen that the there is no original document of the Bible available to us to verify its inerrancy doctrine. Concerning the New Testament documents The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that:
    The original copies of the NT books have, of course, long since disappeared. This fact should not cause surprise. In the first place, they were written on papyrus, a very fragile and persihable material. In the second place, and probably of even more importance, the original copies of the NT books were not looked upon as scripture by those of the early Christian communities.[36]
    So, the Qur'an in this aspect is far more better placed than the Bible with all the Qiraa'a associated with it clearly listed with detailed chain of narrations going back to the Companions of the Prophet(P) who in turn learnt the Qur'an from the Prophet(P) himself.

    6. Church Tradition & The Six 'Disputed' Books

    As we have seen above that the books of Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation had quite a dubious history of the entry into the canon, it is time that we have a cursory glance over their comparatively recent history.

    Zwingli, at the Berne disputation of 1528, denied that Revelation was a book of the New Testament.
    [37]

    Martin Luther condemned the Epistle of James as worthless, an 'epistle of straw.' Furthermore, he denigrated Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation). He did not omit them from his German Bible, but drew a line in the table of contents, putting them on a lower level than the rest of the New Testament. In Prefaces to each of these books, Luther explains his doubts as to their apostolic as well as canonical authority.
    [38]

    The reformer known as Andreas Bodenstein of Karlstadt (1480-1541) divided the New Testament into three ranks of differing dignity. On the lowest level are the seven disputed books of James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, Hebrews, and the Apocalypse (Revelation).
    [39]
    Oecolampadius in 1531 under Wurttemberg Confession declared that while all 27 books should be received, the Apocalypse (Revelation), James, Jude, 2 Peter 2 and 3 John should not be compared to the rest of the books.[40]
    Early in his career, Erasmus (d. 1536) doubted that Paul was the author of Hebrews, and James of the epistle bearing the name. He also questioned the authorship of 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, and Jude. The style of Revelation precludes it from being written by the author of the Fourth Gospel.[41]
    The same four books are labeled 'Apocrypha' in a Bible from Hamburg in 1596. In Sweden, beginning in 1618, the Gustavus Adolphus Bible labels the four dubious books as 'Apocryphal New Testament.' This arrangement lasted for more than a century.[42]
    Conclusions

    With all the gory details of the Church history and the Bible are out, with no clear cut indication of the Bible and its 'inspiration', why would any Muslim even bother to read it? And above all why should a Christian missionaries would push such a dubious set of scriptures down the throat of Muslims? And above all why call it injil?

    cAbdullah Ibn Mascud, the well known Companion of the Prophet(P), is reported to have said:
    Do not ask the ahl al-kitab about anything (in tafsir), for they cannot guide you and are themselves in error....[43]
    If Christianity has got the biographies of the people who transmitted their New Testament or Old Testament as well as their traditions, it would compete with the Islamic science of hadîth. Alas, with no isnad, who is going to believe in their Bible and what is in it? And as the illustrious teacher of Imaam Bukhari had said:
    "The isnad is part of the religion: had it not been for the isnad, whoever wished to would have said whatever he liked."
    The lack of isnad and people drawing different Canons of the Bible seem to be the problem of people saying whatever they wished. Any one would claim anything and the Bible canon seems to reflect precisely that.
    And look how bogus the missionary argument turned out to be!
    A Few Questions
    As Muslims we are obliged to ask:

    1. Which Bible or the books are inspired? Is it the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopic, Coptic or the Syriac? Please remember that they contain different number of books. It is just not the "oh! those are different translations".
    2. How can we trust the Church tradition when she herself cannot produce a reliable bunch of books worth calling a Bible?
    3. Why should we trust the Church which cannot even produce a set of manuscripts throughout the centuries which can be relied on instead of the guess work to find which reading is the original?
    4. How do we know that Jesus(P) said what is there in the Bible as there is no way of confirm how his words got transmitted? This is one of the major argument of Islamic traditionalists against the Older scriptures which deal with Israa'iliyat stuff. And they were rejected outright for very obvious reasons.

    And if Christian missionaries cannot answer these question, there is no point calling the Bible as a reliable document. Therefore, an unreliable document is worth not calling a 'Scripture'.
    Other Articles Related To The Textual Reliability Of The Bible
    Islamic Awareness arrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Bible arrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Text arrow 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... Church Tradition & The Textual Integrity Of The Bible


    dummy 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?..... References
    [1] Suhaib Hasan, An Introduction To The Science Of Hadîth, 1995, Darussalam Publishers, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, p. 11.
    [2] Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105.
    [3] W Montgomery Watt, What Is Islam?, 1968, Longman, Green and Co. Ltd., pp. 124-125.
    [4] Henry Malter, Saadia Gaon: His Life And Works, 1921, The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelphia, pp. 39-40.
    [5] Alfred Guillaume, The Legacy Of Islam, 1931, Oxford, p. ix.
    [6] Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan (Ed.), Oxford Companion To The Bible, 1993, Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, pp. 79 (Under 'Bible').
    [7] Ibid.
    [8] Ibid.
    [9] Ibid.
    [10] Bruce M Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, 1997, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 225.
    [11] Metzger, Oxford Companion To The Bible, Op.Cit, p. 79.
    [12] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 227-228.
    [13] Ibid., p. 219.
    [14] Ibid., p. 220.
    [15] The Catholic EncyclopediaOnline Edition.
    [16] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 43.
    [17] Ibid., p. 49.
    [18] Ibid., p. 49.
    [19] Ibid., p. 50.
    [20] Ibid., p. 51.
    [21] Ibid., pp. 55-56.
    [22] Ibid., pp. 58-59.
    [23] Ibid., pp. 62-63.
    [24] Ibid., p. 67.
    [25] Ibid., pp. 71-72.
    [26] Ibid., pp. 72-73.
    [27] Ibid., pp. 305-315.
    [28] The Catholic EncyclopediaOnline Edition.
    [29] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, pp. 187-188.
    [30] Ibid., p. 188.
    [31] Ibid.
    [32] Ibid.
    [33] Ibid., pp.130-135.
    [34] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 4, 1962 (1996 Print), Abingdon Press, Nashville, pp. 594-595 (Under Text, NT).
    [35] George Arthur Buttrick (Ed.), The Interpreter's Dictionary Of The Bible, Volume 1, pp. 41 (Under "Acts of the Apostles").
    [36] Ibid., p. 599 (Under "Text, NT').
    [37] Metzger, The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Significance & Development, Op.Cit, p. 273.
    [38] Ibid., p. 243.
    [39] Ibid., pp. 241-242.
    [40] Ibid., p. 244.
    [41] Ibid., p. 241.
    [42] Ibid., pp. 244-245.
    [43] Ahmad von Denffer, cUlûm al-Qur'an, 1994, The Islamic Foundation, p. 134.


    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bib...tml#Protestant
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    Re: Is the bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    repeat post but would like to comment that.. the fear and punishment thing is rather the product of your creative churches who for centuries weren't content to lie in their own scriptures but to distort the image of Islam.. perhaps if they'd take the time to learn the religion they'd not be so notoriously met with so much resistance .. after all who wants to leave the path of enlightenment into the depth of the dark ages? and I say this with utmost respect of course!

    all the best
    I wasnt looking for a list of reasons why you believe the Quran is true.I have read alot of them already.I was looking for an opinion on the points that I brought up.Specifically how God would not be able to control how his revelation to man was written and then have to "fix it" with the Quran.And also what will happen when a third revelation comes along claiming that Islam was corrupted.


    I agree the church has made many mistakes.Im not familiar with the image of Islam created by any church.I came to these conclusions on my own based on what I know of Islam and comparing it to what I know about Christianity.Is it not true that to get into heaven you must do more good than bad?Is it true that the Quran doesnt mention the word love once?It seems like a legalistic system to me.That is the opposite of Christianity.Doing good is the proof that you have accepted Jesus.Not the way to heaven.

    I am aware that the old testament and the Quran are similar.My arguement is that the Quran doesnt reveal anything new except to correct a few inaccuracies that it claims are in the bible(of course there are other differences).So Im asking what its purpose is.I think this is the main reason I dont read the Quran.It just seems to rehash the old testament but with different stories.

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    Re: Is the bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN View Post
    I wasnt looking for a list of reasons why you believe the Quran is true.I have read alot of them already.I was looking for an opinion on the points that I brought up.Specifically how God would not be able to control how his revelation to man was written and then have to "fix it" with the Quran.And also what will happen when a third revelation comes along claiming that Islam was corrupted.
    I don't think you have them, and if you do then you have not read them.. opinion should be based on sound reason. The ills of the OT/Bible didn't happen with the Quran for reasons above..

    8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
    for we have the law of the LORD,"
    when actually the lying pen of the scribes
    has handled it falsely?

    whereas in the Quran:

    “Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Quran 15:9)
    simply to sum it in a nut shell without going through the machination of that process (for the lazy)


    I agree the church has made many mistakes.Im not familiar with the image of Islam created by any church.I came to these conclusions on my own based on what I know of Islam and comparing it to what I know about Christianity.Is it not true that to get into heaven you must do more good than bad?Is it true that the Quran doesnt mention the word love once?It seems like a legalistic system to me.That is the opposite of Christianity.Doing good is the proof that you have accepted Jesus.Not the way to heaven.
    No one goes to heaven because of good or bad deeds.. they go solely on God's mercy, you see that is another reason, I believe you are completely clueless as far as Islamic texts. That is a very basic principal in Islam

    “...And know that Allâh knows what is in your hearts and take heed of Him; and know that Allâh is Oft Forgiving, Most Forbearing.” (2:235)

    “Know, therefore, that there is no god but Allâh, and ask forgiveness for your fault...” (47:19).

    “Be you foremost (in seeking) forgiveness from your Rabb, and a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of Heaven and earth, prepared for those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers. That is the Grace of Allâh, which He bestows on whom He pleases; and Allâh is the Rabb (Only God) of Grace abounding.” (57:21)

    “O you who believe! Fear, Allâh, and believe in His Messenger, and He will bestow on you a double portion of His Mercy. He will provide for you a Light by which you shall walk (straight in your path), and He will forgive you (your past); for Allâh is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.” (57:28)

    Islâm further guides us to salvation with various supplications for forgiveness. Examples of such supplications are as follows:

    “…Our Rabb! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error. Our Rabb! Lay not on us a burden as You did lay on those before us. Our Rabb! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Protector. Grant us victory over the unbelievers.” (2:286)

    “... ‘Our Rabb! Perfect our Light for us, and grant us Forgiveness, for You have power over all things.’” (66:8)

    Abdullâh bin Amr t narrated that Abu Bakr As-Siddiq said to the Prophet r “O Allâh’s Messenger! Teach me an invocation with which I may invoke Allâh in my prayers.” The Prophet r said Say: “Allâhumma inni dhalamtu nafsi dhulman kathiran wala yaghfiru dh-dhunuba illa anta, Faghfirli maghfiratan min indika war-hamni, innaka antalGhafur-Rahim.” (O Allâh! I have wronged my soul very much (oppressed myself), and none forgives the sins but You; so please bestow Your Forgiveness upon me. No doubt, You are the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” ) (Bukhâri 8/388 and 9/485)

    I am aware that the old testament and the Quran are similar.My arguement is that the Quran doesnt reveal anything new except to correct a few inaccuracies that it claims are in the bible(of course there are other differences).So Im asking what its purpose is.I think this is the main reason I dont read the Quran.It just seems to rehash the old testament but with different stories.
    Again, if you had read the Quran you'd see many a new things not previously revealed :

    Luqman
    Ahel Al'kahf
    Zhu el'Qernyen
    A'ad
    Thamud

    the point of the Quran is mercy for all of man kind, whereas all the previous prophets were revealed to their folks, Prophet Mohammed was sent to all of man-kind


    parallel2 1 - Isthe bible is wrong?.....New International Version (©1984)
    He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
    International Standard Version (©2008)
    But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
    King James Bible
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    American King James Version
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    American Standard Version
    But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Bible in Basic English
    But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
    Darby Bible Translation
    But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
    English Revised Version
    But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Webster's Bible Translation
    But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Weymouth New Testament
    "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
    World English Bible
    But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
    Young's Literal Translation
    and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'


    I am at least glad you ended on an honest note, which is that you've never read the Quran...

    at day's end, you should go the path that comforts you heart, mind and soul, and Christianity doesn't fulfill any of those criteria unfortunately..


    all the best
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    All the information you have posted really has little to do with anything Ive asked.You seem to have an automatic response to a person questioning your faith.Im asking specific questions.Not asking you to prove your faith to me or prove to me why the bible is false.


    From what I understand,Islam is based off the old testament of the bible.Am I incorrect in saying this?Based on tis Im simply questioning how you can think the Quran is true if God cant get it right the first time.It seems to open up a perpetual doubting of anything God writes or reveals.

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    I have answered your specific questions above.. and I have supported them with the longer posts so we are not dancing around the same point.. indeed we have ready made answers-- even though you all read, and later decide you haven't really read, 'but because it is all the same anyway' seem to come up with the same questions and conclusions.. one wonders if it is indoctrination, plagiarism or just plain taking us for clods?

    all the best
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    You wrote....

    "I am at least glad you ended on an honest note, which is that you've never read the Quran...

    at day's end, you should go the path that comforts you heart, mind and soul, and Christianity doesn't fulfill any of those criteria unfortunately.."

    I have read some of it.It just didnt seem to have anything new to offer except claims that the bible isnt true so I havent spent alot of time on it.

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    I have answered your specific questions above.. and I have supported them with the longer posts so we are not dancing around the same point.. indeed we have ready made answers-- even though you all read, and later decide you haven't really read, 'but because it is all the same anyway' seem to come up with the same questions and conclusions.. one wonders if it is indoctrination, plagiarism or just plain taking us for clods?

    all the best
    You really shouldnt be so defensive when you are representing Islam to the public.If you dont agree with me thats fine.No need to be so hostile.Im sure Allah wouldnt approve.

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    You haven't read it nor listened to it.. where in your bible/ot have you come across this
    in reason, lyricism, meaning, textual integrity as in verses revealed years apart and still follow in context, rhyme, rationality and transcendence?

    Media Tags are no longer supported

    or this
    Media Tags are no longer supported



    Or all the others for that matter?
    Last edited by جوري; 06-20-2009 at 01:32 AM.
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    You wrote....


    I don't think you have them, and if you do then you have not read them.. opinion should be based on sound reason. The ills of the OT/Bible didn't happen with the Quran for reasons above..

    8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
    for we have the law of the LORD,"
    when actually the lying pen of the scribes
    has handled it falsely?

    whereas in the Quran:

    “Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Quran 15:9)
    simply to sum it in a nut shell without going through the machination of that process (for the lazy)

    This doesnt seem like an explanation to me.You agree that parts of the old testament are true but somehow God couldnt control the people that wrote it down?He started with the old testament but somehow couldnt get the job done so needed to trash it and start a whole new religion?

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    Im unable to follow your reasoning.Maybe its the language barrier.Maybe someone else can answer my questions?

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    I wrote you the short and long of it.. what 'seems to you' at this stage is a matter you are to deal with in your private time, as it isn't anything anyone can help :smile:

    the OT/NT even if pertinent are revealed to a select few, they have no bearing on the rest and for the most part have been abrogated. NT as a whole can simply go back to the folks who conceived it.. god isn't about dancing in churches or eating pigs, or sins for that matter.. as for his alleged love and death.. well I think the history of Christianity speaks a different picture...


    WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
    Ancient Pagans


    • As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
    • Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
    • Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
    • Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
    • Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
    • Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
      According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
    • In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
    • In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
    • The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
      [DO19-25]

    Mission


    • Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
    • Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
    • Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
    • 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
    • 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
      Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]

    Crusades (1095-1291)


    • First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
    • Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
    • 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
    • Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
    • after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
      Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
    • Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
    • Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
      (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
    • The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
    • Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
    • Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
    • Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
    • Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224] Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.

    Heretics


    • Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
    • Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
    • Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
      The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
      Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
    • Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
    • subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
    • After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
    • Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
    • Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
    • Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
    • John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
    • University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
    • Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.

    Witches


    • from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
    • in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
    • incomplete list of documented cases:
      The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times

    Religious Wars


    • 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
    • 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
    • 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
    • 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
    • 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
    • 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
    • 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]

    Jews


    • Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
    • In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
    • 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
    • The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
    • First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
    • Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
    • Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
    • Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
    • 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
    • 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
    • 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
    • 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
    • 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
    • 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
    • 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
    • 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
    • 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

    (I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.
    Native Peoples


    • Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
    • Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
      While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
    • On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:

    I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]
    • Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
    • In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
    • On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
    • The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
    • As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
    • The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
    • What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
      "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
      Or, on another occasion:
      "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
    • The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
    • "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
    • Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
    • "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]

    Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

    • Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
    • In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
      "Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
    • On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
    • When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
      Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
      The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
    • So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
    • Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
      "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
    • Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
    • Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
      In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
    • The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
    • Other tribes were to follow the same path.
    • Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
      "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
    • Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
    • In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
    • In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
    • To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
    • All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
    • A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
    • In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.

    More Glorious events in US history


    • Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
    • Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
      From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
      More gory details.
    • By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]

    20th Century Church Atrocities


    • Catholic extermination camps
      Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

      In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
    • Catholic terror in Vietnam
      In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

      Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

      The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:

      • "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."

    Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

    To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
    • Rwanda Massacres
      In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.

    For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
    Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
    "Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

    According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
    In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
    As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....
    References:

    [DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. [DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. [EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985. [EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977. [LI] H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961. [MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. [MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
    See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.
    [NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992. [S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00. [SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992. [SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996. [TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676. [TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980. [WW] H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
    (This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
    [WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:

    • N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
    • R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
    • J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
    • H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56



    alot of love there?

    all the best
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    Text without context is pretext
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    جوري's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN View Post
    Im unable to follow your reasoning.Maybe its the language barrier.Maybe someone else can answer my questions?


    'im' is some sort of ill written contraction--'its' is the possessive form of "it"--

    It must indeed be a language barrier.. here's to hoping someone comes to your rescue!

    all the best
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

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    DovVN's Avatar Limited Member
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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    'im' is some sort of ill written contraction--'its' is the possessive form of "it"--

    It must indeed be a language barrier.. here's to hoping someone comes to your rescue!

    all the best
    LOL.Is that sarcasm?

    You seem to go off in all different directions so its hard to follow you.Its almost like you have things you want to say regardless if it has anything to do with the discussion.Thats why its hard to follow you.I thought it might be a language barrier but now I think that its just how you are.

    As for your post of all christian atrocities,you cant blame christianity for what evil people do.They were acting contrary to what the bible teaches.

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    well they were using your bible so who knows.. I'd lay low on the 'love' thing, not many people are buying into that..

    Your questions have pretty much been addressed.. let's go about it systematically

    1- you want to know why the Quran is preserved over its predecessors
    we have shown you the painstaking process of its preservation.
    It isn't made out of the dreams of Thomas or the sudden goodness of Paul or the visions of a Joan of Arc.. in fact the Quran can't be made at all comparable to the bible or previous..

    if anything at all it can be compared to, it would be the hadith.. and even those come with rigorous Isnad and two levels of importance.. those that are hadith Qudsi and those that are nabwi..

    2- How is it different, well you'd actually have to read it to appreciate it, you can't go by cliff notes (though in this case not even that much courtesy has been granted) and then come discuss the text

    3- Islam is the religion of all people, not a select few.. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.. they for the most part denounced him and frankly after the gross misrepresentation in his name, one can't blame them..

    a god doesn't change his mind about his commandments, they maybe amended but not thrown out the window all together.. god doesn't descend on women to annunciate himself, god doesnt impregnate women with his person, god doesn't d a m n the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit (he should know where fruit is), god doesn't choose disciples who are ineffectual at best, I call your attention of course to the last supper where he told peter how would renounce him three times and three times he did.. I mean how bad a shape does god want to leave the world in at the hands of disciples clueless at best as he is about to self-immolate after he prayed to himself not to be forsaken the night previous in the garden of Gethsemane and decide later, he didn't have time to do it right so he inspired his word in his nemesis Saul to send humanity into deeper despair?

    just a few points of why God would want to send things aright if at all..
    Since I believe of course that God and Jesus are guiltless of what you've ascribed to both of them...

    all the best
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    Text without context is pretext
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    DovVN's Avatar Limited Member
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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye View Post
    well they were using your bible so who knows.. I'd lay low on the 'love' thing, not many people are buying into that..

    Your questions have pretty much been addressed.. let's go about it systematically

    1- you want to know why the Quran is preserved over its predecessors
    we have shown you the painstaking process of its preservation.
    It isn't made out of the dreams of Thomas or the sudden goodness of Paul or the visions of a Joan of Arc.. in fact the Quran can't be made at all comparable to the bible or previous..

    if anything at all it can be compared to, it would be the hadith.. and even those come with rigorous Isnad and two levels of importance.. those that are hadith Qudsi and those that are nabwi..

    2- How is it different, well you'd actually have to read it to appreciate it, you can't go by cliff notes (though in this case not even that much courtesy has been granted) and then come discuss the text

    3- Islam is the religion of all people, not a select few.. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.. they for the most part denounced him and frankly after the gross misrepresentation in his name, one can't blame them..

    a god doesn't change his mind about his commandments, they maybe amended but not thrown out the window all together.. god doesn't descend on women to annunciate himself, god doesnt impregnate women with his person, god doesn't d a m n the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit (he should know where fruit is), god doesn't choose disciples who are ineffectual at best, I call your attention of course to the last supper where he told peter how would renounce him three times and three times he did.. I mean how bad a shape does god want to leave the world in at the hands of disciples clueless at best as he is about to self-immolate after he prayed to himself not to be forsaken the night previous in the garden of Gethsemane and decide later, he didn't have time to do it right so he inspired his word in his nemesis Saul to send humanity into deeper despair?

    just a few points of why God would want to send things aright if at all..
    Since I believe of course that God and Jesus are guiltless of what you've ascribed to both of them...

    all the best

    1.My question wasnt how the Quran was preserved over its predecessors.Youve given me all kinds of evidence for why you believe the Quran is well preserved.The Quran relies on old testament traditions and prophets.My question is this.Why was God unable to control the people who wrote his bible.Why wasnt he able to have them write what he wanted and keep others from corrupting it?If the Quran bases its beliefs off a half true book,then Islam acknowledges that God himself began to write the bible but was unable to keep it from being corrupted.That causes a problem for all other writings because it makes it impossible to trust anything God reveals.If the Quran was not based off of the bible then I could understand your claims.But the Quran picks and chooses what parts of the bible its thinks are true.It even mimicks the bible in certain areas.The bible says that Jesus ascended into heaven.The Quran strangely copies this practice and Mohammed ascends into heaven.If the Quran claims the bible is incorrect,I find it strange that it mimicks something like this.If all the writing about Jesus are false,why would the Quran copy the ascention.Its like giving credit to a false document by copying it.

    2.Look.It takes years and years just to fully grasp the bible.I have read some of the Quran.I will read more.Like I said.It revealed nothing new to me.Just more laws and repeats of the same things the bible says.There are differences.In some cases major differences.The main difference is that it claims the bible is corrupted and it establishes a new religion.Other than that I dont find anything new about it.

    3.I dont know how to respond to this because it doesnt make much sense to me.Basically your claim is that you know God so well that he couldnt possibly do anything but what you believe he would do.I believe we shouldnt try to make God conform to what we think he should conform to.Wether or not God will self immolate or not is up to him to decide.Not human beings.That is your opinion.Gods ways are not our ways.

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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    format_quote Originally Posted by DovVN View Post
    1.My question wasnt how the Quran was preserved over its predecessors.Youve given me all kinds of evidence for why you believe the Quran is well preserved.The Quran relies on old testament traditions and prophets
    Incorrect.. the Quran doesn't rely on Ot prophets or traditions..
    prophets of God are indeed mentioned and such can one expect if the message came from the same God that every messenger would come bearing the same message, some had books, some didn't.. and that ultimately is what defines the difference between a messenger and prophets..



    .My question is this.Why was God unable to control the people who wrote his bible.Why wasnt he able to have them write what he wanted and keep others from corrupting it?
    It isn't God's job to preserve it, it is a job he delegates to the people.. The people that jesus came into, were reluctant to accept him, and those that accepted him needed to make him into some Greek mythology, Hercules/Zeus and a mortal woman type thing, and have indeed succeeded at it.. given the abrogation of all the OT laws.. further I have already shown you above that jesus was merely sent to a select few, rendering this entire conversation useless!


    If the Quran bases its beliefs off a half true book,then Islam acknowledges that God himself began to write the bible but was unable to keep it from being corrupted.That causes a problem for all other writings because it makes it impossible to trust anything God reveals.
    That is a non-sequiteur .. I have no idea how you reached that conclusion or even what it means.. see above!


    If the Quran was not based off of the bible then I could understand your claims.But the Quran picks and chooses what parts of the bible its thinks are true.It even mimicks the bible in certain areas.The bible says that Jesus ascended into heaven.The Quran strangely copies this practice and Mohammed ascends into heaven.
    Show me similarities between the Quran and the bible, and where exactly it copies.. I'd like the original greek manuscripts that Prophet Mohammed copied from or the alleged folks who whispered such laws in his ears?
    you allege that jesus is god and that god died and went to be with whomever, the Quran makes no such claims..
    Prophet Mohammed's ascension came with end of the world prophecies which are have and are proving true, I'd like to see similar prophecies from yours!

    If the Quran claims the bible is incorrect,I find it strange that it mimicks something like this.If all the writing about Jesus are false,why would the Quran copy the ascention.Its like giving credit to a false document by copying it.
    Now, you are really sounding like a broken record!
    2.Look.It takes years and years just to fully grasp the bible.I have read some of the Quran.I will read more.Like I said.It revealed nothing new to me.Just more laws and repeats of the same things the bible says.There are differences.In some cases major differences.The main difference is that it claims the bible is corrupted and it establishes a new religion.Other than that I dont find anything new about it.
    You haven't read the Quran-- it isn't merely enough to say 'I have read the Quran' if you want textual comparisons then by all means.. I am not going to sit and waste my time on your assertions and other drivel!

    3.I dont know how to respond to this because it doesnt make much sense to me.Basically your claim is that you know God so well that he couldnt possibly do anything but what you believe he would do.I believe we shouldnt try to make God conform to what we think he should conform to.Wether or not God will self immolate or not is up to him to decide.Not human beings.That is your opinion.Gods ways are not our ways.
    To put it in a nutshell.. I don't believe in the pagan gods of christianity. You worship a man named Jesus, you limit his being in all the ways I have listed in my previous post, he is foreign from the God of Moses, Abraham, Enoch, Luqman, Saleh and the rest.. certainly you are free to worship him.. as we are free to worship a non self-immolating god who is capable of choosing sane companions for the message he is entrusting to the world...

    I have kind of tired of your rehtoric .. until such a time you actually have something of substance to discuss from the Quran can you have a debate.. until then, I am not big on discussing your feelings..

    all the best
    I
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    Re: Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    The Qur'aan is no way a copy of the bible. It's constantly being changed for instance additions/substractions etc.

    This thread should be closed. I see no progress other than on sis Gossamers side.
    Isthe bible is wrong?.....

    *Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*


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