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Why the violence?

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    Bornagain's Avatar Limited Member
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    Why the violence?

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    One of the reasons I joined this forum is because a friend asked me to ask Muslims why there is so much violence surrounding the Islamic faith. I promised I would and here it is.

    (Since I've posted this in another thread this morning, it has been suggested there that I post it elsewhere. This forum seemed most appropriate for moving the question)
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    Annelise's Avatar Full Member
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    There's a thread with the same topic under Introduce Yourself... I can't link to it 'cause I'm a new member but you can find it by clicking on Bornagain's posts

    I'm going to think about your question and maybe try to post something there, because I know that there is violence coming from Islam, Judaism, and Christianity... and that some of it comes from people who don't understand their religion, and some of it comes from people who do understand the implications of their faiths regarding holiness and contexts of violence. I've also met people in all three religions who have a strong love for God and for others that really stirs my heart to see, and it is absolutely not separate from that understanding they have of holiness. It's a really hard question.

    But yep, it would be really meaningful to me if people could answer it in the thread that I just mentioned
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    Re: Why the violence?

    That post by me (above) was moved by moderators from another thread to this one, so only read the middle paragraph in context of this question

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    Why the violence?



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    Re: Why the violence?

    The following article sheds some light on this:

    format_quote Originally Posted by Al_Imaan View Post
    What does Islam say about terrorism?

    Unfortunately more and more often, Islam has been associated with terrorism and violence due to the actions of a few extreme individuals who’ve taken it upon themselves to do the most heinous crimes in the name of Islam.

    Tragic events such as the attack on the twin towers in New York, the bombings of Bali, Madrid and London are assumed to be justified by Islam in the minds of some people. This idea has been fueled further by many media channels which defame Islam by portraying these bombers as ‘Islamists’ or ‘Jihadists’, as though they were sanctioned by Islam, or had any legitimate spokemenship on behalf of Muslims. The actions of a few fanatical individuals who happen to have Muslim names or ascribe themselves to the Muslim faith should not be a yardstick by which Islam is judged. For the same reason, that one would not do justice to Christianity if it where perceived as sanctioning the genocide of the Native Americans, the atrocities of world war II or the bombings of the IRA.

    To understand Islam’s stance on terrorism, one must refer to its original sources, the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,which are explicit in their prohibition of any form of injustice including that of wanton violence which seeks to instill fear, injury or death to civilians.

    The Quran turns our attention to the high value of human life, whether it is Muslim or Non-Muslim and makes it absolutely forbidden to take an innocent life unjustly. The gravity of such a crime is equated, in the Quran, with the killing of all humanity.

    “On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.” ( 5:32 )

    Not only is human life sacred in Islam but the property, wealth, family and dignity of all individuals in society are to be respected and protected. Those who transgress these rights and sow fasad (corruption) as the Quran describes it, incur the wrath of Allah.

    "…and seek not corruption in the earth; lo! Allah loveth not corrupters " (28:77)

    Likewise in another verse

    “The blame is only against those who oppress men and wrong-doing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice: for such there will be a penalty grievous” (42:42)

    Islam goes further than just prohibiting oppression and safeguarding rights, it commands its faithful to deal kindly and compassionately to all those who seek to live in peace and harmony

    "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (60:8)

    In times of war and conflict, where enmity can obstruct an individual’s judgement to act morally, Islam commands that justice be upheld even towards one’s enemies.

    "O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do" (5:8)

    Centuries before the Geneva Convention was drawn up, Muslims were bound by a code of conduct which the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, set. He forbade the killing of women, children and elderly in war. In an authentic narration the Prophet (pbuh) warned that he who kills anyone who has a covenant of peace with the Muslims will not smell the scent of Paradise. In fact, he taught that justice is not only to humans but must be shown to animals and all living things. In a narration the Prophet (pbuh) informed us about how a lady was sent to hell because of a cat she had locked up until it starved and died. If such is the sanctity which Islam places on the soul of an animal, how much more grave is the killing of hundreds of innocent humans?!

    Abu Bakr the first Calipha of the Muslims reflected these prophetic teachings when he advised his general Yazid, who was confronting Roman armies,

    "I advise you ten things, Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camels except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."

    The message of the Quran is clear as we have seen, that the sanctity of any human life is to be respected and any violation in that regard is paramount to the worst crime. Mercy is at the heart of the Islamic call, “We sent thee (O Muhammad) not save as a mercy for the peoples” (21:107); a totally different message to what the terrorists are sadly imparting to humanity.


    http://discover.islamway.com/article...e_id=47&lang=1

    You may also wish to read:
    The Prophet Muhammad: a mercy for all creation
    The Profound Teachings of Prophet Muhammad
    Muhammad(s): A mercy to mankind
    The True Love & Mercy of the Prophet (Pbuh) for Mankind
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    Why the violence?




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    Re: Why the violence?

    I find the question fallacious - let me ping pong back at ya and ask you why all the drones against women and children? Why the illegal occupations and looting overseas?
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    Why the violence?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Why the violence?


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    Re: Why the violence?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad View Post
    The following article sheds some light on this:
    I’m always glad to read that Muslims see Islam is a religion of peace. With regard to the terrorism which has been associated with Islam – do the majority of Muslims see these groups as:

    1. Not Muslims no matter if they believe that they are
    2. Muslims, but a tiny minority
    3. Someone else masquerading as Muslims
    4. Another option I haven’t thought of

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    Re: Why the violence?

    Greetings and peace be with you Bornagain; welcome to the forum;

    Christian history in Northern Ireland is not good, why did mainly Christian Countries invade Iraq?

    Beyond a doubt we are all created by the same God, and I believe we have a duty to care for all God’s creation, and that means caring for each other despite all our differences. Maybe we need to ask how can we build bridges between our faiths, how can we seek justice for all people despite our differences.

    Over the years I have been on this forum, I would say that they are against violence here. If we are all religions of peace then I believe we should work towards these aims together.

    In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

    Eric

    In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

    Eric
    Why the violence?

    You will never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

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    سيف الله's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Why the violence?

    Salaam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Bornagain View Post
    One of the reasons I joined this forum is because a friend asked me to ask Muslims why there is so much violence surrounding the Islamic faith. I promised I would and here it is.

    (Since I've posted this in another thread this morning, it has been suggested there that I post it elsewhere. This forum seemed most appropriate for moving the question)
    Well depends what you mean. For example what do you mean by ‘Islam’ is the cause of violence. Usually it causes are multifaceted; you can’t just reduce it to a single cause.

    One reason why the violence occurs is that it is a response to being attacked. For example the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, it’s quite naturally people will try and defend themselves. Muslims seek (or should) peace but we are not pacifists

    Finally you must remember that western nations led by the USA can be extraordinarily violent (the destruction they can wreak is of the scale!) to those who oppose their interests. History is littered with examples.

    If you want a place to start investigating the complexities of various conflicts in the Muslim world I’d recommend this book.

    cover 1 - Why the violence?

    However I don't deny that the Muslim world has serious systematic problems like vicious sectarianism, bad governance etc that can lead to serious problems.
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    Mustafa2012's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Why the violence?

    Yes there are some Muslims who are committing violence because of wrong ideas that have no basis in Islam. We do not support their actions.

    However there are some forms of "violence" like self defense which are not considered violence but a right that all countries have and is written in their constitutions. If for e.g. one country invades another country illegally like in Iraq, and the country that is being invaded defends themselves, that is not considered violence but a human right.

    But with all due respect to the original question and everyone who has replied...

    To understand how much violence Muslims are committing it is best to look at the violence that people of other faiths are also committing so that it is all in the right context and perspective.

    I think the question itself is not a fair one because it implies that only people of the Muslim faith are committing violence when this is clearly not the case.

    Let's take the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan for e.g.

    The whole Iraq war was based on a fabrication of evidence which many top government officials have admitted but no one has been charged with genocide on account of it. A top scientist and government member mysteriously died as soon as the investigation started. Co-incidence or what? How many hundreds of thousands of people have died in Iraq because a small group of people from mainly Christian government/s decided to invade Iraq based on a fabricated lie which there is plenty of evidence that proves it was a lie. Bush even said that it was a Crusade. He was the owner/director of a company that provides medical supplies to the soldiers. He was personally profiting from the war as were many other top officials. Then there's Halliburton. That is a conflict of interest which should never have been allowed.

    Then look at Afghanistan. They claimed the war was against the Taliban but that's a big filthy lie. They couldn't care less about the Taliban. That's not their concern. What they are interested in is the oil and the mineral resources. This has been publicly admitted to in the media. Thousands of innocent people have been killed there. So what about all the violence in Afghanistan that has been perpetrated by mainly Christian majority countries?

    Now let's look at the Zionists, Jewish Extremists. How can a country which is illegally occupying Palestine and has commited mass genocide over the years have the guts to ask Iran to stop developing nuclear energy when they (Israel) have the largest stockpile of nuclear arms in the whole middle East region. How can any country order another country to stop developing nuclear energy when they themselves have got nuclear arms and facilities? What gives them that right apart from a superiority complex?

    RE: 9/11. Why are some people so quick to accept that Muslims were involved in that. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary suggesting that it was frame up by Zionists who used their resources at high levels and manipulated people. This evidence is publicly available.

    Re: 7/7: There is evidence to suggest foul play. On the day of the attacks there was some simulation activities being carried out a by a private company on what would happen if a real attack took place on the underground. While those role-plays were going on the real attacks happened. I watched an interview on TV given the director of that company. Now what are the chances of that happening? I think it's all a bit too convenient.

    Re: Syria. President Assad is not considered a Muslim. He is a follower of a faith called Ba'ath which is some deviant religion and does not follow the majority sunni Muslim belief.
    The people who are being oppressed by him are doing whatever they can to survive. He has been given free reign by the whole world to do as he pleases. No one is intervening to help the Muslims under his rule. Why is that? Where are the so called just and civilised nations now?

    Why are we so apologetic when there are people who are much more violent than us? The only thing they are good at is covering up their evil and violence and focusing their Zionist owned media at our minority of extremists.

    Before being so apologetic be sure to look at and address the violence and crimes of people of other faiths as well. Make sure you balance your judgements so that Muslims are not judged out of context of the atrocities that people of other faiths are committing.

    None of what I've said has got anything to do with conspiracy theories. It is all documented facts available for anyone to see.

    I think some of us (especially Muslims) need to stop living in a fantasy world and wake up to the reality. A good place to start would be to read up from different independent sources on who is really behind major events in the world. You will not get the truth from mainstream media because they are all owned by Zionists who will only give you a distorted inaccurate version of things. Mainstream media will only tell you what they want you to hear.
    Last edited by Mustafa2012; 11-07-2012 at 09:38 PM.
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    Re: Why the violence?




    terrorism has no religion430x323custom 1 - Why the violence?



    CNN recently published an article entitled Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated; according to a study released by Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, “the terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim-Americans has been exaggerated.”


    Yet, Americans continue to live in mortal fear of radical Islam, a fear propagated and inflamed by right wing Islamophobes. If one follows the cable news networks, it seems as if all terrorists are Muslims. It has even become axiomatic in some circles to chant: “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslims.” Muslims and their “leftist dhimmi allies” respond feebly, mentioning Waco as the one counter example, unwittingly affirming the belief that “nearly all terrorists are Muslims.”


    But perception is not reality. The data simply does not support such a hasty conclusion. On the FBI’s official website, there exists a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005. That list can be accessed here (scroll down all the way to the bottom).




    piechart21024x1024 1 - Why the violence?







    Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Soil by Group, From 1980 to 2005, According to FBI Database


    According to this data, there were more Jewish acts of terrorism within the United States than Islamic (7% vs 6%). These radical Jews committed acts of terrorism in the name of their religion. These were not terrorists who happened to be Jews; rather, they were extremist Jews who committed acts of terrorism based on their religious passions, just like Al-Qaeda and company.


    Yet notice the disparity in media coverage between the two. It would indeed be very interesting to construct a corresponding pie chart that depicted the level of media coverage of each group. The reason that Muslim apologists and their “leftist dhimmi allies” cannot recall another non-Islamic act of terrorism other than Waco is due to the fact that the media gives menial (if any) coverage to such events. If a terrorist attack does not fit the “Islam is the perennial and existential threat of our times” narrative, it is simply not paid much attention to, which in a circuitous manner reinforces and “proves” the preconceived narrative. It is to such an extent that the average American cannot remember any Jewish or Latino terrorist; why should he when he has never even heard of the Jewish Defense League or the Ejercito Popular Boricua Macheteros? Surely what he does not know does not exist!


    The Islamophobes claim that Islam is intrinsically a terrorist religion. The proof? Well, just about every terrorist attack is Islamic, they retort. Unfortunately for them, that’s not quite true. More like six percent. Using their defunct logic, these right wingers ought now to conclude that nearly all acts of terrorism are committed by Latinos (or Jews). Let them dare say it…they couldn’t; it would be political and social suicide to say such a thing. Most Americans would shut down such talk as bigoted; yet, similar statements continue to be said of Islam, without any repercussions.


    The Islamophobes live in a fantasy world where everyone is supposedly too “politically correct” to criticize Islam and Muslims. Yet, the reality is the exact opposite: you can get away with saying anything against the crescent. Can you imagine the reaction if I said that Latinos should be profiled because after all they are the ones who commit the most terrorism in the country? (For the record: I don’t believe in such profiling, because I am–unlike the right wing nutters–a believer in American ideals.)


    The moral of the story is that Americans ought to calm down when it comes to Islamic terrorism. Right wingers always live in mortal fear–or rather, they try to make you feel that way. In fact, Pamela Geller (the queen of internet Islamophobia) literally said her mission was to “scare the bejeezus outta ya.” Don’t be fooled, and don’t be a wuss. You don’t live in constant fear of radicalized Latinos (unless you’re Lou Dobbs), even though they commit seven times more acts of terrorism than Muslims in America. Why then are you wetting yourself over Islamic radicals? In the words of Cenk Uygur: you’re at a ten when you need to be at a four. Nobody is saying that Islamic terrorism is not a matter of concern, but it’s grossly exaggerated.


    Source
    Last edited by ~Zaria~; 11-07-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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    Why the violence?




    يَا مُقَلِّبَ الْقُلُوبِ ثَبِّتْ قَلْبِى عَلَى دِينِكَ

    Ya Muqallib al-Quloob, Thabbit Qalbi Ala Deenik
    "Oh Turner of Hearts, keep my heart firm on Your Deen."



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    Re: Why the violence?

    The book: Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People by Dr Jack Shaheen also provides insight into how the media is used, to consistently create negative stereotypes of arabs/ muslims - as being sub-human/ terrorists/ 'extremists', etc.
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    Why the violence?




    يَا مُقَلِّبَ الْقُلُوبِ ثَبِّتْ قَلْبِى عَلَى دِينِكَ

    Ya Muqallib al-Quloob, Thabbit Qalbi Ala Deenik
    "Oh Turner of Hearts, keep my heart firm on Your Deen."



    Subscribe and Share:
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    Re: Why the violence?

    format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~ View Post




    terrorism has no religion430x323custom 1 - Why the violence?




    CNN recently published an article entitled Study: Threat of Muslim-American terrorism in U.S. exaggerated; according to a study released by Duke University and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, “the terrorist threat posed by radicalized Muslim-Americans has been exaggerated.”


    Yet, Americans continue to live in mortal fear of radical Islam, a fear propagated and inflamed by right wing Islamophobes. If one follows the cable news networks, it seems as if all terrorists are Muslims. It has even become axiomatic in some circles to chant: “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but nearly all terrorists are Muslims.” Muslims and their “leftist dhimmi allies” respond feebly, mentioning Waco as the one counter example, unwittingly affirming the belief that “nearly all terrorists are Muslims.”


    But perception is not reality. The data simply does not support such a hasty conclusion. On the FBI’s official website, there exists a chronological list of all terrorist attacks committed on U.S. soil from the year 1980 all the way to 2005. That list can be accessed here (scroll down all the way to the bottom).




    piechart21024x1024 1 - Why the violence?





    Source


    That's an excellent piece of research. This thread should be made a sticky.

    This is exactly what I was referring to. You cannot argue with fact based research.

    When you look at the violence being caused by all religious/ethnic groups as a whole then only can you really understand how violent each individual group is.

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    Independent's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Why the violence?

    Plenty here about Christian terrorism but very little about Muslims. Would it be accurate to say therefore, that the majority of Muslims don’t believe there is any Islamic terrorism worth talking about?

    Can anyone tell which of the most significant terrorist events which were claimed by Muslims are acknowledged by Muslims as actually being Islamic? Or are there none?

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    Re: Why the violence?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Independent View Post
    I’m always glad to read that Muslims see Islam is a religion of peace. With regard to the terrorism which has been associated with Islam – do the majority of Muslims see these groups as:
    1. Not Muslims no matter if they believe that they are
    2. Muslims, but a tiny minority
    3. Someone else masquerading as Muslims
    4. Another option I haven’t thought of
    No. 2 and definitely No. 3 in many cases.

    Reason for No. 3 is to frame Muslims and make the world see them as evil when that is not the case according the study results shown above.
    Last edited by Mustafa2012; 11-07-2012 at 08:28 PM.

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    Mustafa2012's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Why the violence?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Independent View Post
    Plenty here about Christian terrorism but very little about Muslims. Would it be accurate to say therefore, that the majority of Muslims don’t believe there is any Islamic terrorism worth talking about?

    Can anyone tell which of the most significant terrorist events which were claimed by Muslims are acknowledged by Muslims as actually being Islamic? Or are there none?
    Maybe you missed it but I stated on the very first line in my earlier post that, yes there are some extremist Muslims that are carrying out attacks from time to time and we do not agree with them . Then I went on to explain those attacks in proportion to the other "so called" major Muslim attacks.

    All of the major attacks referred to in my earlier post that are attributed to Muslims are questionable due to contradictory evidence that has come to light since. 9/11 was never claimed by muslims. 7/7 was, but as I mentioned there were some simulation role-plays being carried out on the day by a private British company which is too much of a co-incidence. There's also another story of a major newspaper reporter who identified some discrepancies with the train timings that day and when he took his story to the papers, none of them would publish it and one even offered him money to keep quiet.

    Note: the questions are not just coming from Muslims but from respected non Muslim independent sources.

    Everything has been addressed in the right perspective. Have another look at the graph above.

    Bear in mind most of the violence caused by extremist Muslims are carried out in retaliation for the state sponsored terrorism carried out abroad (not that I'm condoning it). Based on this one could argue that if there was no 9/11, no Iraq, no Afghanistan, the no. of attacks by Muslims would have been much less because they would not have been given a reason to do what they did.
    Last edited by Mustafa2012; 11-08-2012 at 01:40 AM.
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  21. #17
    M.I.A.'s Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Why the violence?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Bornagain View Post
    One of the reasons I joined this forum is because a friend asked me to ask Muslims why there is so much violence surrounding the Islamic faith. I promised I would and here it is.

    (Since I've posted this in another thread this morning, it has been suggested there that I post it elsewhere. This forum seemed most appropriate for moving the question)

    well firstly id like to ask you and your friend if you have experienced islamic violence within your own communities and if so in which context?

    secondly id like to say that most of islam constantly asks for caliphate and sharia,
    without the people needed to implement those things there is islamic violence.

    and most islamic violence is there because it is the easiest answer to dispute, there are only winners and losers in war.

    but if the winners are any better qualified to lead is a matter of how you would want society to be educated.


    its a lot more complicated, i can understand that.

    but i guess the most generalised answer is that islamic violence exists because it has the opportunity to exist in environments where there is no governmental protection....

    its a circular argument, although ironically a disputable answer.
    Last edited by M.I.A.; 11-07-2012 at 09:56 PM.

  22. #18
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    Re: Why the violence?

    Lol, u should b asking urself: y does the media deceive us with a warped presentation of the facts on the ground.
    It's also telling that the countries who's media bleat it out the most are the ones guilty of some of the worst human rights abuses in recent history.
    Here's the latest update of the highest spenders on "violence" from SIPRI:

    b09e38f10131487a6380ba9e868c5144 1 - Why the violence?
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9e868c5144.png

    Military expenditure by country map2 1 - Why the violence?
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...untry_map2.png

    Rank Country Spending ($ Bn.)[3] % of GDP World share (%) Spending ($ Bn. PPP)[4]

    — World total 1,735 2.5 100 1562.3

    1 United States 711.0 4.7 41 711

    2 China 143.0 2.0 8.2 228
    3 Russia 71.9 3.9 4.1 93.7
    4 United Kingdom 62.7 2.6 3.6 57.5
    5 France 62.5 2.3 3.6 50.1
    6 Japan 59.3 1.0 3.4 44.7
    7 Saudi Arabia 48.2 8.7 2.8 58.8
    8 India 46.8 2.5 2.7 112
    9 Germany 46.7 1.3 2.7 40.4
    10 Brazil 35.4 1.5 2.0 33.8
    11 Italy 34.5 1.6 2.0 28.5
    12 South Korea 30.8 2.7 1.8 42.1
    13 Australia 26.7 1.8 1.5 16.6
    14 Canada 24.7 1.4 1.4 19.9
    15 Turkey 17.9 2.3 1.0 25.2
    ^ SIPRI estimate
    ^ The figures for Saudi Arabia include expenditure for public order and safety and might be slight overestimates.
    (Saudi Arabia is also a key U.S ally - thought I'd mention it before ur face lit up).

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...ures#section_1

    Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) is an independent international institute dedicated to research into conflict, armaments, arms control and disarmament. Established in 1966, SIPRI provides data, analysis and recommendations, based on open source, to policymakers, researchers, media and the interested public.


    The "peace loving" American government spends more money on violence and destruction than the next 13 highest spending countries put together, and most of them are it's allies, so please don't be too dismayed if I don't become defensive and apologize for Muslims who stand up to their enemies and to God's enemies, I have much love and respect for them - save the few dupes who unwittingly get recruited indirectly by the FBI to serve their twisted propaganda purposes, and even then, I feel sorry for the few dupes too rather than hate them.

    Bye bye
    Last edited by Abz2000; 11-07-2012 at 10:09 PM.
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    Why the violence?




    2dvls74 1 - Why the violence?


    2vw9341 1 - Why the violence?





  23. #19
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    Re: Why the violence?

    I could also ask why here is so much Christian terrorism or Jewish terrorism. Or atheist terrorism as well.

    About Jewish terrorism I read every single day. Here is link about Jewish terrorism by its every acts is reported weekly from 2009:

    http://www.pchrgaza.org/portal/en/in...=84&Itemid=219

    As some atheists say "without religions here wouldn´t be any wars and violence" then please explain me Stalin and violence of other communist leaders for example.

    Why the violence?

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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  25. #20
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    Re: Why the violence?

    Stalin? Y go so far back? What about bush, Blair, obama, sarkozy and Cameron?
    It is a documented fact that atheism has been the cause of the worst violence in the last century, and although the above mentioned mass murderers claim to be Christian, it is a well known fact that their ideals are the antithesis of it and so are their laws.
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    Why the violence?




    2dvls74 1 - Why the violence?


    2vw9341 1 - Why the violence?






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