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Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

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    Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam (OP)


    Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem
    As-Salaamu ‘alaikum wa Rahmatullah,
    Download the book, Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam, from: http://cris.co.nf/English.html
    This book is very good in studying comparative religion.
    Copy the link given and paste in your browser.
    Was-Salaamu ‘alaikum wa Rahmatullah
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

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    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings ibn-Adam,

    Your post above is a perfect example of what I mean by Islam's hostility to free thought. Your words are a hymn to voluntary suspension of the critical faculties. Your intention is to obey without question. You do not seek to understand. You would rather shut all discussion down with an elaborate tribute to Allah's magnificence that doesn't address the points I made in any way.

    Civilisations make progress largely through experiment and observation, research and innovation. This requires a basic curiosity about the world and its workings that is absolutely negated by your myopic position. A civilisation that adopted your point of view would stagnate and find it very difficult to recover.

    Peace
    I have to agree very strongly, and I point you to the Obedience vs Morality thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...obedience.html. I made an offhanded comment in another thread about how Obedience is not morality and a mod here turned that into its own thread. It became very interesting reading the posts from the Muslims there, in how they didn't seem to be able to see Obedience and Morality as separate concepts. They insist that Obedience to authority (Allah) is the very definition of morality and it seems blind, as if no independent thought is applied. This truly perplexes me.

    This is a very sensitive topic and I think it may be the very weakest point in Islam. I stand by my signature below.
    Last edited by Pygoscelis; 07-18-2016 at 06:07 AM.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    If atheists are right and Muslims are wrong, then nobody is at loss. Both of them live this life and die at the end.
    But when Muslims are right and atheists are wrong, then Muslims win the Hereafter and atheists loose their chance.

    Logically, any sane person would choose what is best for him in the long run. So what do you choose? Do you want to live your life being skeptical about the hereafter and ultimately loose it, or are you ready to take no chances and prepare yourself for it?
    This is Pascal's wager, and I am very surprised to still see it being presented after all these years.

    There are numerous serious flaws with this logic, the most obvious of which is that it is a false dichotomy. If you read these holy books, the Gods seem more concerned with the worship of false Gods than the worship of no Gods. If you picked the wrong God, and the odds are you did, since there are so many millions of different Gods that could exist, you may be far worse off than those of us who picked none. It also assumes that we are able to choose if we believe or if we don't. That doesn't make sense. Can you make yourself believe what you don't? Can you make yourself believe than an apple in your hand is actually a golf ball? No, I can't either. And it is no different when trying to make myself believe Gods exist. Finally, if we were able to make ourselves believe, on evidence our minds find unconvincing, then Pascal's Wager (above) presents a God who would rather we foolishly believe things we don't find convincing, and basically turn our minds off (in favour of "faith") than use the very thinking brains that he created for us.
    Last edited by Pygoscelis; 07-18-2016 at 06:10 AM.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    Okay, what I'll say to this is that I think it would be fair characterization of atheists to say they are skeptics. But I'd also say for atheists there is also presumably no harm in being skeptical of their own skepticism. For example, all atheists I presume have either met or know of people or have family or friends that are theists; it would be entirely self-defeating to not learn about how or why theists think as they do or to place themselves in a walk-the-shoes-of-a-theist type of thing as per the religion's own terms, if for no other reason than to understand theists better and to be able to better explain atheism to theists who would otherwise continue to see them in a negative light.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    This is Pascal's wager, and I am very surprised to still see it being presented after all these years.

    There are numerous serious flaws with this logic, the most obvious of which is that it is a false dichotomy. If you read these holy books, the Gods seem more concerned with the worship of false Gods than the worship of no Gods. If you picked the wrong God, and the odds are you did, since there are so many millions of different Gods that could exist, you may be far worse off than those of us who picked none. It also assumes that we are able to choose if we believe or if we don't. That doesn't make sense. Can you make yourself believe what you don't? Can you make yourself believe than an apple in your hand is actually a golf ball? No, I can't either. And it is no different when trying to make myself believe Gods exist. Finally, if we were able to make ourselves believe, on evidence our minds find unconvincing, then Pascal's Wager (above) presents a God who would rather we foolishly believe things we don't find convincing, and basically turn our minds off (in favour of "faith") than use the very thinking brains that he created for us.
    Last edited by Search; 07-18-2016 at 10:08 PM.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    Once it has been explained that Allah is our Lord and Sustainer, and that He alone can be worshipped, then there remains no question of trying to justify His commands and prohibitions. Whatever He commands is for the best of His creations, whether we understand His wisdom or not.
    That's the point of disagreement.

    First off you have to explain why your book, written by God or God's prophet or what ever, is better, more believable, more credible than all the various other religions books and myths.

    Secondly you must show why worshiping this God will do the world good.

    Given you will find, as you have always, that showing any evidence at all for the first is utterly impossible and that the evidence for the second is generally against the case, you will keep getting the same questions thrown at you. They are the obvious ones.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    I have to agree very strongly, and I point you to the Obedience vs Morality thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...obedience.html.
    Replied in the original thread there.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis View Post
    This is Pascal's wager, and I am very surprised to still see it being presented after all these years.

    There are numerous serious flaws with this logic, the most obvious of which is that it is a false dichotomy. If you read these holy books, the Gods seem more concerned with the worship of false Gods than the worship of no Gods. If you picked the wrong God, and the odds are you did, since there are so many millions of different Gods that could exist, you may be far worse off than those of us who picked none. It also assumes that we are able to choose if we believe or if we don't. That doesn't make sense. Can you make yourself believe what you don't? Can you make yourself believe than an apple in your hand is actually a golf ball? No, I can't either. And it is no different when trying to make myself believe Gods exist. Finally, if we were able to make ourselves believe, on evidence our minds find unconvincing, then Pascal's Wager (above) presents a God who would rather we foolishly believe things we don't find convincing, and basically turn our minds off (in favour of "faith") than use the very thinking brains that he created for us.
    I am not a debate person and I have not gone through previous debates here. So I didn't know what was already presented.


    We are not forcing you to believe. It is all up to you. You both have been here for a very long time and almost all the concepts have been thoroughly explained to you.

    Why can't there be any other god besides Allah (or a false god)? Because anything else does not fit the qualities or characteristics of being a god. You know it very well that you cannot accept any of the other mythological gods. The only remaining choice is the One who has created you, the Creator, the Sustainer. Now if you think you were created by chance or by evolution or whatever, it is your misconception and it has been debunked several times over.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    I'd like to also point out one very, very, very important thing. When the man you know today as Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was divinely conferred prophethood, he began receiving the Revelation in ayats or verses (sometimes two, sometimes one, sometimes more) at different stages and events of his life throughout 23 years and not in one go. The Quran as we know it today is the product of that progressive Revelation.

    In the beginning, for 13 years, the only emphasis in the Revelation was the existence of the One God for pagan Arabia. The message was focused on just this aspect and not injunctions.

    This is crucial to understand because one of the reasons that you'll find injunctions or rulings on a specific topic difficult to grasp like for example a blanket ban on homosexual behaviors is that you do not have that foundation yet. For example, it is widely known that in pagan Arabia drinking alcohol was common. In the beginning, there was no injunction forbidding the consumption of alcohol. Only after a group of persons in pagan Arabia began believing in the One God was this injunction issued.

    For example, if a man came to you and told you, czgibson, you're to stay inside your office until further notice. You'll probably be like, "Who are you to tell me what I can or cannot do? I'll do what I please." However, what if we tweak this scenario a bit. Not just any man but a man who'd previously on another occasion identified himself as a security officer came to you and said, "Please stay inside your office as we've heard gunshots." Would you stay inside? Yes. Because you know who it is that has issued this directive and why.

    In that same way, Islam doesn't say believe in this/that injunction or ruling without a foundation. Why? Because you won't agree to submit yourself as a person under the authority of anything you do not consider legitimate, and Islam recognizes that and that is why asks you to investigate the foundation (as rulings or injunctions are a byproduct of that foundation). Even in mathematics, you need the basic foundation of addition, subtraction, division, multiplication before you're considered ready for the next step, say, algebraic equations. That's why if you really are interested in Islam for study purposes, it is a disingenuous idea to investigate the injunctions/rulings without first investigating the foundation first: The One God.

    Does the One God exist?

    Formula for Receiving Divine Proof:
    The One God says, "Indeed I am near. I respond to the person who calls me" (Quran 2:186). So, I am assuming that you are to call upon the One God.
    The One God asks us to say to you, "He will show you His Signs and you will recognize them" (Quran 27:93). So, ask for Signs to be shown that you will recognize as being Signs.
    The One God says to you, "Ask the people of the message if you do not know" (Quran 16:43). And if you are still unsure about the Signs given, then ask people of knowledge.

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings,

    I think I'll be the judge of whether I find the answers given in discussions here satisfactory or not, thank you very much. I have seen no adequate defence or justification for many of the injunctions of Islam; for example, among many other issues, the rulings on music and homosexuality, as well as the general hostility to free thought that exists in Islam.

    People keep bringing up the same questions because they matter. You may not agree, but you ought to realise that to many of us outsiders, many of the teachings of Islam appear to be obviously false, unhelpful and / or dangerous. Would you agree that I'm perfectly entitled to hold that view?



    Some of them have been worthwhile.

    Peace
    Last edited by Search; 07-19-2016 at 08:23 AM.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    Greetings, Search,

    format_quote Originally Posted by Search View Post
    For example, if a man came to you and told you, czgibson, you're to stay inside your office until further notice. You'll probably be like, "Who are you to tell me what I can or cannot do? I'll do what I please." However, what if we tweak this scenario a bit. Not just any man but a man who'd previously on another occasion identified himself as a security officer came to you and said, "Please stay inside your office as we've heard gunshots." Would you stay inside? Yes. Because you know who it is that has issued this directive and why.
    Think about how different the two situations are. Here we have a real security guard who can be seen and engaged with, who is telling us to take a sensible precaution.

    Compare that with a deity who nobody has ever seen, and who has no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he exists, who is telling us to do all kinds of things, many of which have no justification outside of belief. We are told not to think, but to obey this invisible creature. Obviously, you have come to the view that it is a good idea to obey, and in your case I am sure that has had largely benign consequences. But I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the enormous dangers that this kind of blind obedience can lead to.

    Peace
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    Peace to you czgibson.

    Just talking about self here, my belief is not from any individual thing, message or whatever but the collective dots not usually seen as it is very similar to the dots being the stars and the distraction very much like the sun blinding us from being able to connect those star (dots).. stare long enough at the sun you will blind yourself.. like being lead astray.

    I see conistencies in the messages sent throughout history via the 4 Books. I also see incremental milestones for people to adapt as they learn the messages. As humanity grows and learn, I see consistency in the guidance given.

    Even if I just consider the many thousands of years passing from the first message to the last and the design of the messages, it is not something any man, nation or race can plan and have it happen. Only by Divine intervention.

    But, as Allah has decreed, "Thus we have appointed for every prophet an adversary devils from mankind and the jinn who inspire in one another plausible words that are deceiving". 6:112

    So, do we become distracted by the sun or do we reach for the the truth behind the blinding light?

    It is obvious that the nation of Priest that the Jews were meant to be (they were trained since time immemorial) have done little to bring us closer to our Creator, but instead imposed on us a system contravening their Creator's command.

    We? We are just the pawn in their game with God. In the end, they will lose. So will most who fall prey to the system and can't see it falseness.


    Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

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    For when my heart does stop its beat, with truth, I die.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Compare that with a deity who nobody has ever seen, and who has no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he exists, who is telling us to do all kinds of things, many of which have no justification outside of belief.
    We are back to square one now. The basic for all this discussion is the belief and faith.

    I am not going to link you to all the previous discussions we had on the existence of God, evidences etc. It is up to you if you do not want to believe. You are welcome here as long as your intention is to sincerely learn and understand Islam and Muslims. But the day you start belittling our beliefs and causing doubts in weak Muslims, you will not be allowed anymore.

    We are told not to think, but to obey this invisible creature.
    Not at all. We are told to think, seek knowledge and understand. Do not make false claims about Islam.

    Your statement is actually about obedience without protest. That is off topic here. You can discuss it in the other thread.

    And Allah is the Creator.
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    Lightbulb Re: Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

    Walikuassalam .
    Much need full some link.
    I suggestd you to read those story: New Muslim Khadem
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    Greetings,

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    We are back to square one now. The basic for all this discussion is the belief and faith.

    I am not going to link you to all the previous discussions we had on the existence of God, evidences etc. It is up to you if you do not want to believe.
    You've mentioned that you are not a debating person, and your previous attempt to enter the discussion using Pascal's wager was a clear indication that you haven't thought very much about this issue at all. You must realise that people don't start believing in God just because you tell them to.

    You are welcome here as long as your intention is to sincerely learn and understand Islam and Muslims.
    That is absolutely my intention and always has been. I have learned a lot through asking questions and examining claims, not just switching off my brain and accepting whatever answers I receive.

    But the day you start belittling our beliefs and causing doubts in weak Muslims, you will not be allowed anymore.
    Does having an opinion on your beliefs amount to belittling them? If you don't wish to discuss your beliefs, then why enter the discussion? There are some Muslims here, like Search, who are making valuable contributions and are able to discuss their beliefs in a rational way.

    Not at all. We are told to think, seek knowledge and understand. Do not make false claims about Islam.
    You are encouraged to seek knowledge, but only knowledge that doesn't contradict Islam, which is not the same thing at all.

    Peace
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    Re: Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

    The only reason I entered is because you were making false claims about Islamic teachings and subtly belittling our beliefs. We are not asking you to believe without understanding. But as Search explained above, unless you grasp the concept of believing in a God, you will not be able to fully appreciate all other Islamic injunctions.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    Why can't there be any other god besides Allah (or a false god)? Because anything else does not fit the qualities or characteristics of being a god. You know it very well that you cannot accept any of the other mythological gods. The only remaining choice is the One who has created you, the Creator, the Sustainer. Now if you think you were created by chance or by evolution or whatever, it is your misconception and it has been debunked several times over.

    What qualities does your Allah have that would not be also claimed by other gods and how do you support your claim that only Allah has these qualities other than you shouting that it is so? Any sort of evidence to support it?

    If you supply real, outside the Koran, evidence that your God is more cedible than any other you win.
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    Re: Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

    Greetings,

    format_quote Originally Posted by ibn-Adam View Post
    The only reason I entered is because you were making false claims about Islamic teachings and subtly belittling our beliefs.
    Show me one false claim I have made or one place where I have belittled your beliefs.

    We are not asking you to believe without understanding.
    That is exactly what you are asking all believers to do, with statements like the following:

    Once it has been explained that Allah is our Lord and Sustainer, and that He alone can be worshipped, then there remains no question of trying to justify His commands and prohibitions. Whatever He commands is for the best of His creations, whether we understand His wisdom or not.
    But as Search explained above, unless you grasp the concept of believing in a God, you will not be able to fully appreciate all other Islamic injunctions.
    Not necessarily. Even if I did believe in a God, I could never respect a being that makes claims or rulings that I consider to be false or dangerous.

    Peace
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    Re: Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Even if I did believe in a God, I could never respect a being that makes claims or rulings that I consider to be false or dangerous.
    My point exactly.
    Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam


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    Re: Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

    Greetings,

    format_quote Originally Posted by najimuddin View Post
    My point exactly.
    Meaning what?

    I have tried to make sense of your post, but I cannot see how it relates to any of what I've said. I'm not asking you to modify your beliefs, I'm asking you to examine them. You clearly think that there is no point in doing this because you would rather obey than understand. As history clearly shows, societies that adopt this approach always fail, while those that favour understanding usually prosper.

    Peace
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Compare that with a deity who nobody has ever seen, and who has no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he exists, who is telling us to do all kinds of things, many of which have no justification outside of belief. We are told not to think, but to obey this invisible creature. Obviously, you have come to the view that it is a good idea to obey, and in your case I am sure that has had largely benign consequences. But I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the enormous dangers that this kind of blind obedience can lead to.
    To say that there is no evidence whatsoever is quite a bias and ignorant statement. Just because someone refuses to accept the evidences doesn't mean they aren't there. In the Quran it mentions about the people of the past who rejected Allaah, despite witnessing the miracles and evidences with their own eyes.

    "Yes! Verily, there came to you My Ayat - the proofs, the evidences, the verses, the signs etc., and you denied them, and were proud and were among the disbelievers."
    Al-Qur'an 39:59


    "They are only like cattle - nay, they are even further astray from the Path - even worse than cattle."
    Al-Qur'an 25:44


    If you study psychology, you will understand that people refuse to listen and accept for various reasons (personal, emotional, other motives etc), and it is not necessarily because there is a lack of evidence.

    You don't have to believe in Islam or accept it, but it's very unfortunate to see you and your friend make appalling statements such as "there is absolutely no evidence" and "belief in God is dangerous", and "there is just about as much evidence for God as there is for Fairy's" and a society which believes in Allah will stagnate" etc. These statements are either very ignorant or very bias or both. You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions but atleast be fair. Be fair in your evaluation, research about Islam and it's history. And please don't speak about The Creator as some invisible "creature" when you can use the word "being" because it is very disrespectful.

    Peace.
    Last edited by piXie; 07-19-2016 at 07:32 PM.
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    I take your point about the invisibility of the deity to whom I'm directing but my two responses to this are the following:

    1. In the aftermath of Virigina shootings in the U.S., one of the things that universities started implementing is sending out emails to students' and faculty's and staff's accounts if there was any specific concerning incident. So, for the purposes of the discussion, let's revise the scene and then put in an email that comes to you from an unknown man without an identifying name that tells you there is a security situation versus an email that comes to you from campus security telling you there is a security situation. My entire point is that you'd have assumable have differing reaction in the two different scenarios because you are aware of the who and why. In the case of Islam, the One God is not asking you to believe blindly. This is a misapprehension you seem to have developed, and I don't know if it is because you have not come across this ayat or verse from the Quran:

    كِتَابٌ أَنْزَلْنَاهُ إِلَيْكَ مُبَارَكٌ لِيَدَّبَّرُوا آيَاتِهِ وَلِيَتَذَكَّرَ أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
    “It is a Book We have sent down to you, full of blessing, so let people of intelligence ponder (liyaddabbaru) its Signs and take heed (Quran 38:29).

    Obedience (not though blind obedience) is considerable the highest and most desirable state of being AFTER you have verified (1) the existence of this One God and (2) have given thought and time to contemplating the Revelation which is considered the highest Sign though you may ask for your own signs or whatever you personally require to guide you to make this decision on the existence of the One God, and (3) then submit to the authority of the One God with certitude.

    Why? Because faith develops on the basis or foundation of knowledge. There is a reason that the first command given to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) was "Iqra." Iqra means in Arabic to "recite," "read," or "rehearse," underscoring and memorializing the importance of knowledge. As you know, the Sunnah (prophetic foosteps) and ahadith (prophetic sayings or traditions) inform our understanding and application of Quran.

    And Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “People are either possessors of knowledge or seekers of knowledge, and only those two groups are of any use to humanity.”

    The Quran mentions the word “knowledge” in various forms 854 times. Let's compare.

    Do you know how many times the verb "believe" is used in the Quran? 537.

    Do you know how many times the verb "follow" is used in the Quran? 136.

    Also, there are only 25 times in the Quran when God asks us to "obey" the messenger.

    Do you know what the most frequently occurring injunction is in the Quran? Some variation of "ponder", "reflect," "learn," "teach," "think," "infer," and "imagine."

    Do you know what is the most frequent invitation in the Quran? Some variation of "travel in the earth" and "observe" and "see."

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “God makes the way to Paradise easy for him who treads the path in search of knowledge.”

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “He who goes forth in search of knowledge is considered as struggling in the Cause of God until he returns.”

    Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has said, “Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people.”

    Quran (20:14) also includes a prayer that a human being should make, "My Lord! Enrich me with knowledge."

    So, hopefully, you now realize that Quran does not blindly asks us to obey.

    That said, what I was taught by an Islamic scholar is that we cannot only balance on the level of mind this knowledge of which we're speaking because the belief in the One God requires both our minds and hearts to work together in synchrony. Iman (faith) is said to either exist or not exist in the qalb (heart), not the mind, because qalb is ultimately that which rejects or accepts ultimately the unseen.

    2. I am sure you know that 7 + 1 = 8. Now, what if I repetitively give you this mathematical sum to solve 7 + 1 = ? You will keep answering 8 because you have 100% certainty or certitude that 7 + 1 = 8.

    How though did you get this certitude? To get this certitude, you had to first obtain knowledge of basic count. Then you were given the foundation of arithmetic that probably started with 1 + 1 = 2. After obtaining this knowledge, you exercised your mind and were able to see the interpreted probabilistic assignment. This interpreted probabilistic assignment is really "belief" which turned to certitude as you increased in both knowledge and belief with further advancement in mathematics so that you probably no longer even think about answering the sum with the number 8.

    In this case, certitude did involve obedience. Can you guess obedience of what? Obedience to the immutable law of mathematics where an increase in one number will give you the next number.

    So, certitude and obedience go hand in hand together, because certitude is informed by both belief and knowledge.

    I would like to distinguish certitude from belief, because belief may not involve certitude or knowledge, but certitude involves both knowledge and belief.

    Examples of certitude:
    1. Jesus (peace be upon him) says in Matthew 11:22-24, "Have faith in God! If you have faith in God and don’t doubt, you can tell this mountain to get up and jump into the sea, and it will. Everything you ask for in prayer will be yours, if you only have faith."

    2. Similarly, student Habib Al-Ajami came to find that his beloved teacher Hasan Al-Basri awaiting the arrival of a boat, and he admonished his teacher and said to have faith and said the words "Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem" ("In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful") and walked on the water to the other side leading Hasan Al-Basri to faint at witnessing this incident.

    In both these cases, when "faith" is mentioned here, it is really certitude that is being discussed.

    That said, I recognize the truth in Pygoscelis's proposition when he'd said that nobody can make themselves believe what they do not believe. I know this from my days as an atheist because I could not turn myself into a theist just by waking up one day because life doesn't work that way, and I admit that usually theists have a hard time accepting that proposition because to them belief is as obvious as the nose on one's face and as natural as breathing.

    That said, please know Islam recognizes that people will need to search and engage to understand. This early quest for knowledge pushed Muslims to excel once in different fields and the Muslim world witnessed the Islamic Golden Age. The importance of reason cannot be underestimated. That said, I do believe that Muslims today are less willing to engage or be engaged on reasoning because dogma has replaced desire for investment in knowledge or active furtherance of knowledge (read both religious and worldly knowledge).

    I well understand the dangers of blind obedience, but I also think Islam doesn't ask for blind obedience because obedience must be informed if the matter is of ihsan (excellence) with either combination of or progressive movement in knowledge, belief, and certitude.

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Greetings, Search,



    Think about how different the two situations are. Here we have a real security guard who can be seen and engaged with, who is telling us to take a sensible precaution.

    Compare that with a deity who nobody has ever seen, and who has no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he exists, who is telling us to do all kinds of things, many of which have no justification outside of belief. We are told not to think, but to obey this invisible creature. Obviously, you have come to the view that it is a good idea to obey, and in your case I am sure that has had largely benign consequences. But I'm sure I don't need to remind you of the enormous dangers that this kind of blind obedience can lead to.

    Peace
    Last edited by Search; 07-19-2016 at 08:04 PM.
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    Re: Straight Answers to Controversial Questions about Islam

    (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

    format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson View Post
    Not necessarily. Even if I did believe in a God, I could never respect a being that makes claims or rulings that I consider to be false or dangerous.
    Okay, this made me smile.

    Trust me: You'd be surprised at what you can or cannot accept or respect once you develop belief or certitude; you may think you know, but you don't.

    I'd once overheard some girls say they'd never engage in prostitution even if they were starving. I'd categorize that as useless speculation because no one knows what he/she is willing to do in that situation until he/she is literally in that situation. This is not to say that I knew the girls in question more than they knew themselves. Absolutely not. In fact, they may be 100% right, but it is doubtful they have any solid basis on which they're basing this understanding.

    Also, I highly recommend you to read revert stories because you'll find that inevitably what people think they can or cannot accept is very different from what they do or will accept.

    The truth is our experiences, other people's experiences, and life most of all generally teaches us things about ourselves, about others, about things, about existence that it is impossible for our ideas and thoughts to remain static.

    Your comment here reminds me of what Mark Twain once said, “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” Do you really think the old man had suddenly grown so much in knowledge in those 7 years or had Mark Twain just become wiser with age and experience?
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    Re: Straight Answers to the Controversial Questions about Islam

    Greetings, Pixie,

    I'm very sorry you've had your feelings hurt. Unfortunately this sometimes happens in discussions like this. For example, apparently it's OK for you to use words from the Qur'an to compare people like me to cattle ("worse than cattle", in fact - this seems a bit harsh on the cattle; does the Creator hate cows for some reason?), which some people might be offended by. Not me, though. Don't worry, it takes a lot to make me upset.

    format_quote Originally Posted by piXie View Post
    If you study psychology, you will understand that people refuse to listen and accept for various reasons (personal, emotional, other motives etc), and it is not necessarily because there is a lack of evidence.
    No, in this case it's a lack of evidence. And I have studied psychology to Master's level.

    You don't have to believe in Islam or accept it, but it's very unfortunate to see you and your friend make appalling statements such as "there is absolutely no evidence"
    There isn't.

    and "belief in God is dangerous"
    Not exactly what I said, but still often true.

    "there is just about as much evidence for God as there is for Fairy's"
    True. In fact, there is exactly the same amount of evidence.

    and a society which believes in Allah will stagnate"
    Again, not what I said. A society that privileges obedience at the expense of understanding will stagnate. Prove me wrong - show me a successful society of this kind.

    These statements are either very ignorant or very bias or both.
    Do you mean 'biased'?

    You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions but atleast be fair. Be fair in your evaluation, research about Islam and it's history. And please don't speak about The Creator as some invisible "creature" when you can use the word "being" because it is very disrespectful.
    Again, sorry you've had your feelings hurt, but I think I have made considerable efforts to learn about Islam. If you can demonstrate that anything I've said is wrong, don't just call me a cow - show me where I'm wrong, with evidence.

    Peace
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