For some time I have been perplexed by the verse in the Qur'an stating Jesus was not crucified but it was only "made to appear" to be so. I read Ibn Kathir's commentary on the verse and he suggests that another disciple of Jesus was made to look like him, and that this disciple took the place of Jesus on the cross, although there is no source that reveals where Ibn Kathir got this notion from. Is there anything in Islamic tradition that serves to elucidate what happened to Jesus in this verse?
Just so that I'm on the same page here, is it against the rules or would it cause a post removal to address a misconception a poster may have on a non-Islamic topic?
Apologies, but I really cannot answer that question...
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened. A Muslim once suggested to me that perhaps Jesus was crucified but did not die. I suppose in the end for whatever reason this verse was left vague, and not even the Muslim scholars have knowledge of it but only conjecture.
All that is really said about the matter of crucifixion was that Jesus was never crucified. However else it was described the message remains the same, that Jesus was not crucified and that is all we need to know as muslims because we are now told to follow the teachings of the latest messenger of Allah, prophet Muhammad pbuh just as the Jews were told to follow the teachings of Jesus a.s. back then but they refused, similar to the Jews and Christians when prophet Muhammad pbuh was sent with the Scripture.
As you said, 'a muslim once suggested..' considering that there over a billion muslims in this world there will be those who will say whatever they feel which may not be in keeping. The message in the Qur'an was just to clarify that Jesus was not crucified despite what was believed. It only becomes vague when we try to read what is not there. But the essence of the message is vey clear. Jesus was brought unto Him and not killed at the cross.
Just so that I'm on the same page here, is it against the rules or would it cause a post removal to address a misconception a poster may have on a non-Islamic topic?
The point is that this is not a comparative religion section to debate salvation from the Christian and Islamic perspectives, but if you would like to briefly clarify what you perceive as misconceptions conveyed on this thread and think you can shed new light on the matter, then give it a go. We should quickly bring the discussion back to the opening topic though.
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened.
No, that was not a verse/ayat that I quoted, but rather what Sayyid Abul A'la Mawdudi wrote as a commentary. It does no good for us to speculate on what may or may not have happen, but I think we have made it clear that the Islamic belief on the matter is that Jesus did not die on the cross. If Jesus did not die, then he could not have been raised from the dead, which brings to my mind words written by Paul in I Corinthians 15:16-17 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. From this Biblical passage we see that the Qur'anic negation of the crucifixion is as relevant and as important as its denial of Jesus being God or the Son of God, for without the crucifixion Christianity collapses like a house of cards.
"We are not in a position now to find out how and why such a confusion arose. As no authentic source of information is available to us, it would be inappropriate to conjecture and speculate about the cause of the misapprehension which led the Jews to believe that they had crucified Jesus, the son of Mary, whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp."
Wait, doesn't that last part just say that he was substituted even though he said that it is not authentic that he was necessarily substituted? What does he mean by "whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp"?
I am very grateful to the mod team for allowing me to respond to these periphery issues, this will be my last post on these subjects.
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]It is hard work, but very possible. Allah is Most Forgiving and Most Merciful. We can repent, seek forgiveness. Avoid temptations, be charitable, protect the weak etc. It is only of two things, submit or not.
This is the easy way out. It is easier to believe it is impossible to appease God for our failings. You do not believe in a Merciful God? Allah knows we will make mistakes. But we will have to learn from the mistake and ask for forgiveness and still worship Him. It is your effort in up keeping the faith that will speak for you on the day of reckoning. The cold sweat you suffered from fighting the temptations to the deadly sins/vices (figuratively speaking).
We got on this subject when the necessity of the crucifixion was questioned, and I had mentioned that the real issue boils down to believing whether works can close the gap between us and God. Now the interesting thing about this, and I was thinking of creating a new thread but since it touches upon the crucifixion aspect Ill start it here, is that Muslims and Christians share similar views about human origins, and there are some profound things that deserve reflection here.
We both believe that God created Adam and Eve in a perfect world called paradise, where our parents were free from suffering, possessed full bliss, and most importantly had an intimate union with God. Now what did our first parents do to deserve this? The answer is nothing, Allah had given it to them out of the goodness of his will, it was the greatest gift that could be offered to a creature. And so we realize the gravity of their sin when they acted against him, which led to their being casting out from paradise and entering the temporal and difficult world we live in.
Now here is a question to ponder, why must we suffer the fallen fate Adam and Eve? Why were we not given a chance at paradise first, after all, God is merciful is he not? This is a mysterious question, one that deserves the Islamic response Allahu'alim, but it is wrong to say that he is not merciful. The fact is, we deserved not only to lose our state in paradise, but also our existence! The fact that God preserved our race despite such a transgression is a sign of great love and mercy indeed!
So the point of all this discussion is to lead to the following point: if the great God had offered us a gift we did not deserve, what can we do to gain it back? It's not a matter of mercy, for we were not worthy of paradise to begin with. What can I as a limited, finite, human being offer to the perfect God that would motivate him to give me what my parents had lost? There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could motivate a perfect being to give us what we did not deserve in the first place. It's first this the afterlife in the Old Testament was seen as a very gloomy place called sheol, all that one could hope for was a blessed life on earth, there was no paradise as the Quran depicts or heaven that Christians believe. That was not available to man at that point.
This life is a test. It is up to us to find the path.
It's a very cryptic verse and does not bring any clarity to what really happened. A Muslim once suggested to me that perhaps Jesus was crucified but did not die. I suppose in the end for whatever reason this verse was left vague, and not even the Muslim scholars have knowledge of it but only conjecture.
indeed, as Muslims, we take Allahs word. He has informed us already of plenty of things. Some things require faith also - maybe the biggest matters of conscience require faith in a creator, thus certain verses are left ambiguous in order to test faith. And none know the meanings of these except the Author, in this case - Allah.
And He tells us so in the same verse. being very clear about it.
Further elaboration has never been necessary for a Muslim to undertake. However, the anonymity the internet affords us, has seen the odd curious Muslim engage in research into these things. I must admit, I am one. I posted a video earlier in this thread where a Christian produced documentary claims that Jesus didn't die on the cross but survived also - I only posted this in order to know if you have explored this avenue of research and if so - what did it turn up?
The Quran makes it clear "they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him" - so in my opinion, Jesus pbuh was not even on the cross.
Who it was who took his place (if anyone), or if such an event even took place - are the questions which seem more important to me on this subject.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing that could motivate a perfect being to give us what we did not deserve in the first place.
Can't an All-Loving, All-Merciful God grant to His servants whatever He pleases? Or do you limit God's Love and Mercy?
And so we realize the gravity of their sin when they acted against him, which led to their being casting out from paradise and entering the temporal and difficult world we live in.
Now here is a question to ponder, why must we suffer the fallen fate Adam and Eve? Why were we not given a chance at paradise first, after all, God is merciful is he not? This is a mysterious question, one that deserves the Islamic response Allahu'alim, but it is wrong to say that he is not merciful.
It was Satan who disobeyed God out of arrogance and pride, not Adam and Eve. Satan even blamed his Lord for his disbelief and stubbornness. On the other hand, Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan, and regretted their action. Adam admitted his sin, declared his repentance and turned to Allah , and Allaah accepted it from him.
Moreover, Allaah had already decreed that man was to be sent to Earth:
And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Verily, I am going to place (mankind) generations after generations on earth." They said: "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood, - while we glorify You with praises and thanks and sanctify You." He (Allah) said: "I know that which you do not know." [Qur'an 2:30]
Interestingly, this verse is at the beginning of the passage regarding the first mention of the story of Adam and Eve in the Qur'an, before any mention of the tree they were forbidden to eat from.
You ask concerning our fate on Earth:
Allaah is the All-Knowing and Most Wise. He created Aadam (Adam ) and his descendants as inheritors of the earth to see their deeds. Allaah ordained that Aadam would eat from the tree and that would be reason for him to be brought down to earth. Allaah did not make him live on the earth from the beginning so that the devil's enmity toward him would become evident and so that he would be wary of him.
Aadam along with his descendants being brought down to earth is one of the greatest favors of Allaah to him and his descendants. Allaah has great wisdom in doing so, wisdom that would not have been achieved if Aadam had remained in Paradise.
Ibn Al-Qayyim pointed out some of this wisdom as per the following:
1. Aadam would return to Paradise in the best condition. Allaah, The Almighty, wanted to make him and his descendants taste the hardship of the worldly life - its distress, its concerns, its grief, and this would make them know the honor of going to Paradise.
2. It is only by knowing the opposite of something that one appreciates it, and if they were brought up in Paradise, they would not have known its value.
3. Allaah wanted to command, forbid and test them. Paradise is not a place of Takleef (i.e. imposition of religious obligations), so Allaah brought them down to earth and made them experience those things so that they get a reward that could not be attained without commands and prohibitions.
4. Allaah wanted to select from among them (sons of Aadam) prophets, messengers, martyrs and allies of Allaah, those who would love Him and He would love them, so He put them with their enemies and tested them by doing so.
5. The effects of the Names and Attributes of Allaah would become evident to them. His Wisdom necessitated that He bring down Aadam and his descendants to a place where He would show them the effects of His beautiful Names and Attributes: He forgives whom He wills and has mercy upon whom He wills, He humbles whom He wills and honors whom He wills, He avenges whom He wills, He gives to whom He wills and holds from whom He wills, and Allaah provides for whom He wills, and so on. These are the effects of His Names and Attributes.
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing the latter words of your sentence first, as I mentioned above, in Islam, there is no concept of God demanding perfection from us, and us having to be forgiven for not being able to live up to that perfection. God is so Kind and Loving, that perfection has never been demanded of us, and we are not punished for being imperfect.
We are required to obey God, and the messengers He sent with His message, and we have been told which things are forbidden for us and what we should avoid. When we do those things that we shouldn't, then we repent and seek God's forgiveness, being truly sorry for what we have done, trying our best not to repeat it, and acknowledging Allah as being the only One on Whom we depend, for the forgiveness of our sins.
God is so Forgiving and relenting towards us, that He loves forgiving:
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them".
[Saheeh Muslim] Arabic/English book reference : Book 1, Hadith 422
That is not to say that we should deliberately sin, in fact we should resolve not to repeat past sins. However Allah loves forgiving, and this is to show how forgiving Allah is, even knowing that we will sin.
format_quote Originally Posted by arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing your middle words about cost, it seems that if God gives you something free, you do not attach value to it because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.
format_quote Originally Posted by arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing your first words, it is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection.
What you describe above is not truly forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another.
*Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf.
*In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.
If newborns are not born sinful, when do they become sinful? Is it just when they do bad things?
From my understanding, children become accountable from puberty.
“The Pen has been lifted from three: from the child until he reaches puberty, from the sleeper until he wakes up, and from the one who has lost his mind until he recovers.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4402)
We do not refer to people as "sinful". Someone could have committed a big sin, but then sought forgiveness from Allah and made it up to the one he wronged against. It is nobody's prerogative to label another as sinful.
Can we outweigh bad with good?
Yes, in Islam we believe this is the case. On the day of judgement our good and bad deeds will be on each side of a weighing scale. Obviously, the more good deeds we have, the better. And the more chance of the bad deeds being outweighed.
If so, what does god's forgiveness mean and is it really necessary?
Deeds alone do not determine the outcome. If we think our deeds alone are going to make us successful, then we are wrong.
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
"There is none whose deeds alone can secure salvation for him". They said: "Allah's Messenger, not even you?" Thereupon he said: "Not even I, but that the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me."
Saheeh Muslim USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 39, Hadith 6763
Arabic reference : Book 53, Hadith 7293
Is there any assurance of salvation?
None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the day of judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.
For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.
Please also be aware that Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, was divine, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He will return to earth near the end of time.
Hope that helped a bit.
Any errors contained in the post are from me. And Allah knows best in all matters.
I wonder about what the explanations for this verse say on the substitution theory on Jesus (as) for the crucifixion. There is no confirmed report on what happened, and I have not seen any explanations which stem from the Holy Prophet (saw) on this.
In the online abdriged version of Tafir ibn Kathir, it mentions:
Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that `Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of `Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.
It appears that there is a source for the suggestion about someone else being killed in the place of Prophet Isa .
format_quote Originally Posted by Sojourn
I read Ibn Kathir's commentary on the verse and he suggests that another disciple of Jesus was made to look like him, and that this disciple took the place of Jesus on the cross, although there is no source that reveals where Ibn Kathir got this notion from.
I think this has been addressed now, so let us end the thread here to prevent unnecessary speculation or going off-topic.
As the opening posts so notes, Ibn Kathir makes the case in "Stories of the Prophets" that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus - Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, “Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, ‘There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.’ He then asked, ‘Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise).’ One of the youngest ones among them volunteered... WHAT IS THE ORIGINAL SOURCE FOR THIS HADITH?
Is this also the basis for Mohsin/Khan "Noble Qur'an" translation to interject the portion in brackets that another person was killed instead of Jesus in ayat 4:157? And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared so to them [the resemblance of 'Îsa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)], and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) عليهما السلام]:
The Saheeh International puts 'another' in brackets to imply the same meaning: And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
The Nawawi Foundation "Majestic Qur'an" translation does not: And because of their saying: "We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Allah's Messenger." They slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared to them; and those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge of it except the pursuit of a conjecture; [but] certainly they slew him not., but the footnote notes "... It was Judas Iscariot, who sought to betray Jesus, who was arrested instead and crucified."
The Sayyid Abul A'la Mawdudi "Towards Understand the Qur'an" translation states: and their saying: "We slew the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah' - whereas in fact they had neither slain him nor crucified him but the matter was made dubious to them - and those who differ about it too were in a state of doubt. They have no definite knowledge of it, but merely follow conjecture; and they surely slew him not, but the footnote notes "... the person whom the Jews subsequently crucified was someone else rather than Jesus, someone who for one reason or another was mistaken as Jesus."
The Abdel Haleem translation does not make this supposition: and said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ (They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him—
Neither does the Markaduke Pickthall translation: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
Neither does the Ahmad Zaki Hamad "Gracious Qur'an" translation: And for their saying: Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God! However, they did not kill him. Nor did they crucify him. Rather it was made to appear to them as so. And as to those who are in dispute with regard to the crucifixion, they themselves remain in doubt about it. They have no sure knowledge of it except the following of mere conjecture. Yet for a certainty they did not kill him!
And neither does the Yusuf Ali "Holy Qur'an":That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- and the footnote notes: "...it is not profitable to discuss the many doubts and conjectures among the early Christian sects and Muslim theologians..."
From my perspective, Muslims loose credibility with Christians when a supposition is made about the crucifixion without basis in the Qur'an or authentic hadith tracing back to Muhammad (saaws). Why can we not leave it as the Qur'an states and leave the details of the 'how' unspecified?
Christians celebrated Easter last Sunday. The supposed resurrection of Jesus after his supposed crucifixion is a critical element of the Christian faith. The Qur'an states unequivocally that Jesus was not crucified, but that it was made to appear so. The belief that Judas Iscariot was crucified instead of Jesus is common among Muslims. This story is found in the Gospel of Barnabas, but I would like to have a hadith that traces back directly to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) to use as evidence. Does anyone have a reference for such a hadith that the likeness of Jesus was put on another (such as Judas), or that someone else volunteered to be crucified instead of Jesus?
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc;n2231396
Christians celebrated Easter last Sunday. The supposed resurrection of Jesus after his supposed crucifixion is a critical element of the Christian faith. The Qur'an states unequivocally that Jesus was not crucified, but that it was made to appear so. The belief that Judas Iscariot was crucified instead of Jesus is common among Muslims. This story is found in the Gospel of Barnabas, but I would like to have a hadith that traces back directly to Prophet Muhammad (saaws) to use as evidence. Does anyone have a reference for such a hadith that the likeness of Jesus was put on another (such as Judas), or that someone else volunteered to be crucified instead of Jesus?
WOW So in islam judas is a saint. WHre as in christianity he is a devil.
I think you have jumped to conclusions.. Not reasoning at all.
MustaffaMC was just saying that he believed from what he has read that it may have been Judas that was crucified but as far as I know, we do not know who it was. As such we cannot hastilty say that Judas is what ever you have said, model example. And then develop implications on existence of sin and stuff from this. How easily it is to go astray this way.
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, and Allaah 
) and his descendants as inheritors of the earth to see their deeds. Allaah ordained that Aadam would eat from the tree and that would be reason for him to be brought down to earth. Allaah did not make him live on the earth from the beginning so that the devil's enmity toward him would become evident and so that he would be wary of him.
pointed out some of this wisdom as per the following:
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