"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong." Surat Al-Baqarah 2:256
I have a friend who left Islam and was severely punished by his family and later disowned. Which is understandable, because which father will not want his son to take on his faith and values. but in some places that practice sharia law, an apostate can be punished even by death.
How can the Islamic faith claim to be "without compulsion" if muslims are not given the freedom to choose what religion they want to belong to?
Please do not misinterpret my statement. It in no way means that Muslims are free to leave the religion. What I meant was that a Muslim who learns the religion well is never going to leave because there is no reason why he/she should. It is like a perfect city, better than all other places in the world. You would never leave it because no other place would give you similar benefits. The only time you would leave is when you knowingly decide to exchange the better for something of lower standard for some worldly reason (like a king giving you a few million $). This is not acceptable.
This is the case of the person who has knowledge of the religion. On the other hand, there are those who are just Muslim by name, being raised in unislamic circumstances and families that aren't religious. Islam to these people is just a label, just as their nationality is. While it isn't allowed for them to leave Islam, if they do so, it is understandable because they were never true Muslims in the first place. This is why it is important to raise your children with islamic education, otherwise you risk raising a hypocrite who is just muslim by name. Your child will be Muslim so long as he/she is compelled to be one but on the inside he/she will not be a Muslim. And as soon as he/she gets a chance, he/she will remove the "Muslim" label too. And this is a fact. I've read about Muslim children becoming atheists. The responsibility of such children falls on the parents and the parents will be questioned about the child's straying.
Please do not misinterpret my statement. It in no way means that Muslims are free to leave the religion. What I meant was that a Muslim who learns the religion well is never going to leave because there is no reason why he/she should. It is like a perfect city, better than all other places in the world. You would never leave it because no other place would give you similar benefits. The only time you would leave is when you knowingly decide to exchange the better for something of lower standard for some worldly reason (like a king giving you a few million $). This is not acceptable.
This is the case of the person who has knowledge of the religion. On the other hand, there are those who are just Muslim by name, being raised in unislamic circumstances and families that aren't religious. Islam to these people is just a label, just as their nationality is. While it isn't allowed for them to leave Islam, if they do so, it is understandable because they were never true Muslims in the first place. This is why it is important to raise your children with islamic education, otherwise you risk raising a hypocrite who is just muslim by name. Your child will be Muslim so long as he/she is compelled to be one but on the inside he/she will not be a Muslim. And as soon as he/she gets a chance, he/she will remove the "Muslim" label too. And this is a fact. I've read about Muslim children becoming atheists. The responsibility of such children falls on the parents and the parents will be questioned about the child's straying.
I think its clear enough for me. no muslims are free to leave the religion although Islam claims that "there is no compulsion in religion".
Yes and No... They are expected to behave in accordance to the laws made by the nation to preserve it's values. They don't have to believe it; as mentioned every nation has their own pregortive to make laws in their own interest. It's like saying people in UK are expected to behave in an orderely manner against their own will; **** right they are. Just like in the UK, there are rules/regulations for normal citizens however for others such as M15 agents or workers there are far more stringent sets of laws; all to do with guarding their own insterests.
In fact a brother above gave this example which fits:
Allow us to relate a simple example to further explain the point. In today’s age, one is not compelled to take citizenship of any nation (for eg. United States of America); but if one of his own free will chooses to take on and accept US citizenship, he cannot pick-and-choose which law he wishes to follow. If the law of the land states that he has to pay tax, he will be compelled to pay it whether he likes it or not; of if the law of the land states he has to be drafted in the army, he will be compelled to join the army; or if the law of the land states he has to pay half his wealth to his divorced wife, he will be compelled to do so; etc...
1) has to do with Belief (internal state)
2) has to do with guarding our own interests (controlling the external behaviour of masses). This does not form part of belief meaning I do not have to execute an apostate in the UK to remain a Muslim should someone apostate infront of me rather it's the states responsibility should it wish to do so.
Your argument is no different to saying "There is a contradiction in Islam because Allah (Most High) says you should love other Muslims so why do you kill them (once they murder/adultery etc)?". One is to do with belief (internal state) the other to keep law and order (national interest). Your just taking it completely out of context.
well, find me one single law in the whole of UK that says you are not allowed to renounce your citizenship and join as a citizen of another.
well, find me one single law in the whole of UK that says you are not allowed to renounce your citizenship and join as a citizen of another.
Bottom line is how muslim nations decide to maintain law and order in their nations is their pregoritive as well as what they see as a potential problem.
I think it's best to agree to disagree as I am sure we will not see eye to eye on many Laws be it from Shariah or other sources.
Regarding bring born a Muslim there are two reasons:
1) Allah Most High mentions that He has already taken testimony from us regarding our servitude to Him so we cannot make excuses saying we did know of Him and our fealty to Him. So Servitude to Allah Most High also means following the respective Prophets(AS) and Massengers(AS) that were sent by Allah Most High to guide mankind towards Him. So being Born a Muslim also means following Musa(AS) and Isa/Jesus(AS) during the era there was no Islam. This is why when someone follows Islam we say they "reverted" not "converted".
Allah Most High does not say He forced a testimony from us but rather we have already sworn fealty (most probably out of Awe). Also this why Dhikr (praising Allah Most High) is also translated to "remembrance" in Allah Most High because mankind is born and in a state of forgetfulness until they Remember their Purpose which is to Worship Allah Most High.
2) The Fitra in it's primordial state believes in Allah Most High; has an affinity towards Him and to do Good (that which pleases Him). As the saying goes "The Truth is Within" More on that on link below: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NdfJSS2B2I
And everyone is born with their Fitra intact this is why we say everyone is born a Muslim.
The Prophet Muhammad said, "No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
the shariah states that apostacy is only to be punished by death if the person who apostates is doing so for the sake of treason - in any law, in any country, even in the modern age - treason is punishable by death.
There is no issue here - it would serve you well to look into the details.
I think its clear enough for me. no muslims are free to leave the religion although Islam claims that "there is no compulsion in religion".
Why are you misinterpreting the verse. We have to accept the verses as interpreted by God's Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) (through hadith and application). This verse is for those who are not Muslims. There is no compulsion on them to become Muslims, just as the verse says. The verse is not regarding those who have already accepted Islam of their own free will. Such have to remain Muslims and can not renounce their religion.
You cannot misinterpret a verse and then say that the accepted interpretation contradicts with your interpretation and that means that the Quran contradicts itself.
I think its clear enough for me. no muslims are free to leave the religion although Islam claims that "there is no compulsion in religion".
Similarly, no christians are free to leave christianity without being punished although christianity claims that you are free to believe whatever you want.
Muhamad, if you fail to see the contradiction in this I can't say anything more than all I've said in this thread.
Yes, it is best not to say anything more if you are not prepared to see other than what you want to see. When biblical verses are quoted, both of you are quick to forward explanations about abrogation and flawed understanding. But when it comes to the Qur'an, you insist on your personal opinion and are not interested in factual discussion.
Similarly, no christians are free to leave christianity without being punished although christianity claims that you are free to believe whatever you want.
I have heard of several Christians who have left Christianity to become atheists,
Buddhists, Muslims, etc. after turning their backs on their prior faith but I have
never heard of any punishments for them.
Similarly, no christians are free to leave christianity without being punished although christianity claims that you are free to believe whatever you want.
I think you and I both know that statement is inaccurate. The Christian is free to leave Christianity and face the same consequence that befalls any person who rejects Christ when he dies.
It is accurate to say that the Muslim is not free to leave because he will be punished and compelled to remain a Muslim. That is the purpose of the punishment - to prevent apostasy.
If you wish to insist that no men have free will because God/Allah punishes unbelievers, you only further the contradiction not resolve it. Peace.
Nobody should be forced to choose Islam but if you are born into Islam or have made the choice by saying the Shahada then it must be followed for life. That means submitting to the will of Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa by believing in Him, worshiping Him and accepting His laws. The obligations that this comes with are not something you can turn away from when you feel like it - we are commanded to follow Islam in full for life. Our religion incorporates a full legal system - abandoning Islam is seen as amongst the most serious sins for which exemplary punishment is due.
Exemplary punishment being death. Why is Islam so insecure. If indeed it is the ultimate and highest of religion then it should stand on its own without having to force compliance with the threat of death.
How can something so superior be so insecure with it self.
I think you and I both know that statement is inaccurate. The Christian is free to leave Christianity and face the same consequence that befalls any person who rejects Christ when he dies.
It is accurate to say that the Muslim is not free to leave because he will be punished and compelled to remain a Muslim. That is the purpose of the punishment - to prevent apostasy.
If you wish to insist that no men have free will because God/Allah punishes unbelievers, you only further the contradiction not resolve it. Peace.
All religions have some type of sanction. Hinduism and Buddhism have negative reincarnation for those who do not show Godley lives. What we are talking about here is a person being threatened by death by another person ---.
the shariah states that apostacy is only to be punished by death if the person who apostates is doing so for the sake of treason - in any law, in any country, even in the modern age - treason is punishable by death.
There is no issue here - it would serve you well to look into the details.
Scimi
If I leave my country to take nationality in another I do not get punished by death.
If this was the way it was in Medieval Arabia due to Muslims being at war with tribes around them fair enough. However all that tells me is that Islam is not an absolute and timeless religion for all people at all times. Not relevant to today.
Similarly, no christians are free to leave christianity without being punished although christianity claims that you are free to believe whatever you want.
I have heard of several Christians who have left Christianity to become atheists,
format_quote Originally Posted by theplains
Buddhists, Muslims, etc. after turning their backs on their prior faith but I have
never heard of any punishments for them.
Thanks,
Jim
Are you saying they will never be punished? Not even in the afterlife?
format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
I think you and I both know that statement is inaccurate. The Christian is free to leave Christianity and face the same consequence that befalls any person who rejects Christ when he dies.
format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
It is accurate to say that the Muslim is not free to leave because he will be punished and compelled to remain a Muslim. That is the purpose of the punishment - to prevent apostasy.
If you wish to insist that no men have free will because God/Allah punishes unbelievers, you only further the contradiction not resolve it. Peace.
How can it be inaccurate if it is true? He is not obligated to accept Christ, but he will be punished if he rejects him. The threat of hell fire is to prevent apostasy. See how the same logic works for Christianity as well? I am merely pointing out that you are using the samereasoning against Islam but you don't realise that the same can be used against Christianity.
"It is accurate to say that the Muslim is not free to leave because he will be punished and compelled to remain a Muslim"
The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.
format_quote Originally Posted by Genesis
All religions have some type of sanction. Hinduism and Buddhism have negative reincarnation for those who do not show Godley lives. What we are talking about here is a person being threatened by death by another person which is far more crude and barbaric.
Read the news. This year a pregnant Sudanese woman was put in jail on charges of apostasy.
Last year, an Iranian pastor on similar charges. There are "reformative camps" in Malaysia and Indonesia where Christian converts from Islam are sent for "reformation". This is just the tip of the iceberg. But don't take it from me, you can do your own research.
Read the news. This year a pregnant Sudanese woman was put in jail on charges of apostasy.
Last year, an Iranian pastor on similar charges. There are "reformative camps" in Malaysia and Indonesia where Christian converts from Islam are sent for "reformation". This is just the tip of the iceberg. But don't take it from me, you can do your own research.
The actions of people is not proof that that is what their religion commands them to do. The proof is from the text itself. If a person follows a recipe book wrongly and messes up chocolate cake you don't use that person's cooking as proof that the chocolate cake recipe is not good. You need to provide evidence from the text itself.
I don't know you tell me. Every reply I've gotten in this thread says apostasy in Islam is punishable by death and from what I see and hear, it is being practiced in countries that has strict sharia laws.
I know not all Muslims approve of it and there is a diversity of views within the faith itself on this matter.
Read the news. This year a pregnant Sudanese woman was put in jail on charges of apostasy.
Last year, an Iranian pastor on similar charges. There are "reformative camps" in Malaysia and Indonesia where Christian converts from Islam are sent for "reformation". This is just the tip of the iceberg. But don't take it from me, you can do your own research.
What do you mean with "reformation camp"?. I live in Indonesia. One of my friend is ex-Muslim who now Christian. Few public figure in Indonesia are Christians who convert from Islam (beside some public figures who convert from Christianity to Islam). And they live safely.
Some people in my mother family are Christians. Few of my friends are Christians too. And no one compel them to convert to Islam.
You should do your own research, or come to Indonesia to see the reality.
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