"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong." Surat Al-Baqarah 2:256
I have a friend who left Islam and was severely punished by his family and later disowned. Which is understandable, because which father will not want his son to take on his faith and values. but in some places that practice sharia law, an apostate can be punished even by death.
How can the Islamic faith claim to be "without compulsion" if muslims are not given the freedom to choose what religion they want to belong to?
Salaam.
format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
It means that a Muslim can not force/compel a person of other religion to convert to Islam.
The reasons are simple; if a person converts to Islam by force, he will only be a Muslim on paper; inside he's always going to remain a non-Muslim.
Apostacy (conversion from Islam) is not allowed in Islam. The reason is that Islam is the true religion and when a person converts from Islam to another religion he doesn't do so because he has found a more correct way. He does so for some worldly benefit and knows well in his heart that he is leaving the truth and the reason for doing so. Unless the religion had never entered his heart and he had never realized that it was truth but had only been a Muslim by name throughout. This is possible in the case of Muslim children being raised in unislamic society without proper and thorough islamic education, especially when the rest of the family isn't even a practicing muslim family. Such children are muslims by name / tradition. It is a family thing just as is their family name. It is possible that such people are guided by Allah at a later time and revert to Islam.
Let me clarify - Islam does not compel or force anyone to accept but it must force and compel to prevent anyone from leaving.
If this is the case, it comes back to the same problem: that Islam is not truly free of compulsion.
czgibson liked this post
I just wish to further clarify that you may disagree with me about what "acceptance" and "compulsion" means.format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
I understand acceptance of a belief or faith is not a one-time event or decision. A person's acceptance spans his whole lifetime. For any faith or organization to claim to be free of compulsion, it has to have a door that opens both ways - you are able to join freely and leave freely if at any point you encounter something in the faith that you reject. I believe any rationale person will agree with me, its not possible for a person to fully grasp or understand everything about Islam at the point when he first accepts it. So why is the door closed on muslims who grow up and have a change of mind due to new things that they learn?
In the context of a democratic government, true freedom and democracy is possible because you have regular elections to elect who you want to stay in power. You can argue that politicians change but Islam doesn't (which I would agree) but the issue is that people can change their way of thinking! if Islam claims to be free of compulsion, they should be free to leave if they want.
This is where it becomes a bit sensitive... They say islam is the perfect religion, but not necessarily the people who practice it.format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
I would agree with Dreamin in her synopsis of why people tend to leave. There is no compulsion in religion. That is it. We are free to choose. People make it hard. Authorities make their own mandate and the society gets affected. Fanatism can take over which may not even resemble the faith anymore. Can't blame the Deen on the various interpretations and actions some believers take.
Bottomline is that, we are free to enter and leave the Deen. Ultimately it is we who will either benefit or suffer the consequences...
Interestingly, I had this conversation with another muslim and he remarked the exact same thing - Islam is perfect but muslim are not. He went on to prove from the Quran that it is silent on the punishment for apostasy.format_quote Originally Posted by greenhillThis is where it becomes a bit sensitive... They say islam is the perfect religion, but not necessarily the people who practice it.
I would agree with Dreamin in her synopsis of why people tend to leave. There is no compulsion in religion. That is it. We are free to choose. People make it hard. Authorities make their own mandate and the society gets affected. Fanatism can take over which may not even resemble the faith anymore. Can't blame the Deen on the various interpretations and actions some believers take.
Bottomline is that, we are free to enter and leave the Deen. Ultimately it is we who will either benefit or suffer the consequences...
My problem with this idea is that in every Islamic country, there is a punishment for apostasy in the sharia law. Why are they allowed to violate Quran 2:256 and why is no one concerned that whole nations are not obeying Allah? I only see a few possibilities:
1. The followers contradict Quran 2:256 by willfully choosing to disobey it. This is extremely serious because they are guilty of sinning against Allah.
2. The Koran is self-contradictary. So there is no real right or wrong in this matter.
3. The Koran must be interpreted with a different set of rules. There is somehow another way to interpret Quran 2:256 and implement the punishment for apostasy..which i imagine will involve rules of interpreting the Quran or changing the entire definition of "acceptance" or "compulsion"
I probably said too much. Peace
Seeing as you put it that way, I see that in most muslim countries, the laws are mainly of colonial origins, totally secular. And when a country is governed autocratically that way for some time, it is often very difficult to change. As with any colonial policy, it would be divide and rule. If a majority of people are muslims, then they would try to make it islamic, and the politics will step in. Leading to people getting sucked into 'worldly matters', bigotry etc, and fear creeps in. The younger generation are getting more and more influenced by the 'Western' culture, so fear is used to force them back into islam, the ultimate 'weapon' the oppressed has is to renounce islam and then say, you have no jurisdiction over me. Now if all people left the Deen to enjoy the Western lifestyle, who would be the minions of these law-makers? Hence the law of punishment if you leave the Deen. It is all rather silly.format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
Well, there are numerous matters that has suffered with the human touch and not just this matter. We are living in the world that commonly accepts, live and forms a large part of our lives and without it the world grinds to a halt - money and riba'. The soil we walk on is no longer with Allah as the sovereign but the Government; and that muslim nations should seek or establish steps to reconcile with each other and eventually towards a caliphate.format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
Besides, knowing the truth can be very scary. It can become a burden. So it is easier to deny it. But the undeniable fact is, there will be a Judgement Day. Deny it all we want. The truth is in islam. We cannot step away unless we choose to disbelieve. Then it will be our error. A very grave error indeed. But the burden, if done for the right reasons, can be an addictive pleasure. Suddenly, we can win! That is, we win it for ourselves.
So to stop apostasy, we need to educate. Instead, we punish and make fear!
Hmmmm, now I probably said too much...
Physicist liked this post
If one apostates due to doubts or ignorance he should be left alone. And plenty of time should be given to him to rethink his decision and da'wah.
If one apostates and then causes fitnah, corruption and joins the enemies of islam then he should be executed. Allah knows best
greenhill liked this post
Greetings daveyats,
It might be helpful to read the following article which explains how there is no logical, historical or philosophical argument that proves that Islam’s law of apostasy is unacceptable or irrational:
Jamaal Zarabozo Apostasy and Islam: The Current Hype بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم الحمد لله &#
Below is an extract:
The following might also be useful to read:Apostasy and Islam: The Current Hype
Jamaal Zarabozo
Much has been said in recent months concerning the law of apostasy in Islam. In particular, the recent case in Afghanistan has highlighted, once again, to many in the Western world that the Muslim world is neither civilized nor respective of human rights. Repeatedly one hears cries that the Muslim countries must change in order to join “the family of civilized countries” in today’s world. In fact, the Islamic law of apostasy seems to be one of the most obvious cases where a “fundamental” human right is violated by Islamic law, bringing up the question of whether Islamic law is even suitable for modern times or must Muslims be compelled to modify and change their religion and laws. [1]
Indeed, Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, signed by the vast majority of today’s countries, reads: “Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.”
On the other hand, Muslims believe that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said,
لا يَحِلُّ دَمُ امْرِئٍ مُسْلِمٍ إِلاَّ بِإِحْدَى ثَلاَثٍ الثَّيِّبُ الزَّانِي وَالنَّفْسُ بِالنَّفْسِ والتَارِكُ لِدِيْنِهِ المُفَارِقُ لِلْجَمَاعَةِ
“It is not legal [to spill] the blood of a Muslim except in one of three cases: the fornicator who has previously experienced legal sexual intercourse (i.e. with one’s husband, wife, etc.), a life for a life and one who forsakes his religion and separates from the community.” (Recorded by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) is also reported to have said,
مَنْ بَدَّلَ دِينَهُ فَاقْتُلُوهُ
“Whoever changes his religion is to be killed.”[2] (Recorded by al-Bukhari and others.)
These texts from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have led the vast majority of Muslim scholars to conclude that the punishment for apostasy from Islam in Islamic Law is death. It is true that there are some, especially contemporary writers, who opt for very different conclusions and argue that such a death penalty is a misunderstanding of Islamic Law. This is not the proper place to enter into such a debate. Instead, this author shall presume that the opinion that has been held by the vast majority of the scholars is the correct opinion. This entire discussion, therefore, shall be in the light of that conclusion. If the harsher punishment can be “defended” from the current onslaught, any lesser punishments will, obviously, be even more so defensible.
This opinion held by the vast majority of Muslim scholars of the past puts the contemporary Muslim into quite a quandary—especially given a “modern” view of religion that believes that religion must be changed if it does not meet the rational requirements of the times. However, before one immediately jumps to resolve an issue of this nature, one has to realize that there are a number of unstated premises that are in the background.
Furthermore, if one is being asked to give up the dictates of his faith, there should be rather strong compelling evidence demonstrating that his faith (or some aspect of it) is simply unacceptable. In other words, nobody should be asked to give up something that they believe in unless there truly is strong proof that what he believes in must be wrong or unacceptable. Otherwise, on what basis should an individual—any individual, be he Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, whatever—compromise on something that he believes is demanded by or beloved to his very own creator and lord?
At this point, it is necessary to inject a further comment, because issues of this nature are often the result of different worldviews and perceptions. Many in the West have the understanding that “faith” means to believe in something that one cannot prove. This is not the approach of Islam.[3] In general, Muslims hold that there are very strong, rational reasons for them to believe in their religion. It is not simply a matter of “blind faith.” Instead—and this is obviously not the proper place to go into this in detail—Muslims think, for example, that the excellence of the Quran, its unquestionable historical authenticity, and the numerous miracles[4] related to it all point to this book being a true revelation from God. Thus, before a Muslim is asked to override something found in his religion, there had better be very strong evidence that something is mistaken or unacceptable in the religion of Islam. Furthermore, from a Muslim’s perspective, the burden of proof in such a case would be upon the one who claims that there is something superior or more suitable than what is found in Islamic law. (It must be stressed that this seems to be an issue that many in the West simply cannot comprehend because they think that faith is just a matter of blind faith and they do not realize that Muslims have rational reasons for believing in Islam and Islamic Law.)
The question that the Muslim must pose, therefore, is the following: Do those who promote “human rights” or “civilization/modernity” have such evidence and strong proofs? Without jumping too much ahead, it would seem that they do not.[5] In fact, one can question, based on their own statements about civilization, whether those who call for “civilization” are actually civilized themselves. What are the criteria by which a country is to be judged to be among “the family of civilized nations” today? Is it, for example, the acceptance and respect for those vaunted “human rights”? This would seem to be the underlying premise of many statements heard in the media today. If that is the case, then the list of human rights need to be studied in further detail...
[...]
Conclusion
It is beyond the scope of this article to touch upon all of the relevant points related to the question of the law of apostasy in Islam[25] in the light of contemporary thought and attitudes. However, the above has been sufficient to demonstrate that there does not seem to be any logical, historical or philosophical argument that proves that Islam’s law of apostasy is unacceptable or irrational, especially when applied within the strict confines of the principles of Islamic Law.
The belief in the Islamic law of apostasy stems from the Islamic belief in God, the Creator. It stems from the belief that God has the right to lay down laws for His creatures and that, in fact, He is the best in laying down such laws. This should be considered logical by anyone who believes in God. Even though it can be considered logical, this argument is repugnant to many of the West, even those who believe in God. However, this fact has more to do with the West’s unique history than with the logic of the argument being made. The West experienced a period in which many were killed in the name of God and they also experienced a period in which they realized that their scriptures are not truly from God, due to their manifest contradiction with science. Both of these facts led the West to move away from “God’s law” to man-made laws. One, though, cannot derive “universal principles” from the experience of this small portion of human beings. In fact, those phenomena have no relevance whatsoever to Islam.
Thus, there is no logical reason for a Muslim not to trust in Islam’s scripture, the Quran, as being a true revelation from God.
Hence, there is no reason for a Muslim to abandon God’s law.
Similarly, there is no reason for a Muslim to stop believing in the fact that the best lawgiver is God Himself.
Therefore, there is no logical reason for a Muslim to stop believing in the Islamic law of apostasy as explained by the Prophet of God, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him).
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...twaId&Id=85488
Both of these links mention evidences from Islamic texts that apostasy is a capital offence.
I hope this helps to clarify the issue for you.
I don't think any parent should punish or disown their child.format_quote Originally Posted by daveyats
so the consequences being death ! Sounds like compulsion to me !format_quote Originally Posted by greenhillThis is where it becomes a bit sensitive... They say islam is the perfect religion, but not necessarily the people who practice it.
I would agree with Dreamin in her synopsis of why people tend to leave. There is no compulsion in religion. That is it. We are free to choose. People make it hard. Authorities make their own mandate and the society gets affected. Fanatism can take over which may not even resemble the faith anymore. Can't blame the Deen on the various interpretations and actions some believers take.
Bottomline is that, we are free to enter and leave the Deen. Ultimately it is we who will either benefit or suffer the consequences...
greetings! the problem is not a logical, historical or philosophical one. it is a theological one. How can you implement punishment for apostasy and not contradict or violate Quran 2:256?format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
This is my statement...format_quote Originally Posted by Genesis
I was not clear in my statement. I meant when we are all raised again on the Day of Judgement we will either benefit (from our correct choices) or suffer the consequences (in the error of our choices). Nothing to do with the interpretations of mankind and their respective 'laws' with regards to apostasy.format_quote Originally Posted by Genesis
I can understand how fear might motivate people to prevent young people from leaving the faith. I can accept that all humans being imperfect - we all possess a fallen nature and the heart being deceitful beyond cure - may at times abuse religion for our own interests (political etc). But to be honest, I see a great contradiction in the Islamic faith. It cannot claim to be "free of compulsion".format_quote Originally Posted by greenhillSeeing as you put it that way, I see that in most muslim countries, the laws are mainly of colonial origins, totally secular. And when a country is governed autocratically that way for some time, it is often very difficult to change. As with any colonial policy, it would be divide and rule. If a majority of people are muslims, then they would try to make it islamic, and the politics will step in. Leading to people getting sucked into 'worldly matters', bigotry etc, and fear creeps in. The younger generation are getting more and more influenced by the 'Western' culture, so fear is used to force them back into islam, the ultimate 'weapon' the oppressed has is to renounce islam and then say, you have no jurisdiction over me. Now if all people left the Deen to enjoy the Western lifestyle, who would be the minions of these law-makers? Hence the law of punishment if you leave the Deen. It is all rather silly.
Well, there are numerous matters that has suffered with the human touch and not just this matter. We are living in the world that commonly accepts, live and forms a large part of our lives and without it the world grinds to a halt - money and riba'. The soil we walk on is no longer with Allah as the sovereign but the Government; and that muslim nations should seek or establish steps to reconcile with each other and eventually towards a caliphate.
Besides, knowing the truth can be very scary. It can become a burden. So it is easier to deny it. But the undeniable fact is, there will be a Judgement Day. Deny it all we want. The truth is in islam. We cannot step away unless we choose to disbelieve. Then it will be our error. A very grave error indeed. But the burden, if done for the right reasons, can be an addictive pleasure. Suddenly, we can win! That is, we win it for ourselves.
So to stop apostasy, we need to educate. Instead, we punish and make fear!
Hmmmm, now I probably said too much...
What I cannot accept is that
1. there is punishment for apostasy in the Sharia Law which contradicts Quran 2:256 (and I understand contradicts other verses as well)
2. The muslim world is indifferent to it.
I read the articles. There are some inaccuracies in the first article. Especially Pauls quote in Romans. It also seems to say that because the Torah allowed similar behaviors for the ancient Israelites and because the West in Medieval times was similar then that excuses Muslims killing an apostate. The problem with this however is that Israel has moved on from that time and as far as the West is concerned it has also moved forward and you will not find anything in the New Testament / Injil that would support executions for apostasy anyway.format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings Greenhill. Thank you for clarifying. However the fact remains that a consequence for apostasy could be to be murdered or executed.format_quote Originally Posted by greenhillThis is my statement...
I was not clear in my statement. I meant when we are all raised again on the Day of Judgement we will either benefit (from our correct choices) or suffer the consequences (in the error of our choices). Nothing to do with the interpretations of mankind and their respective 'laws' with regards to apostasy.
Perhaps, but that is entirely dependent on where you are and the people who are entrusted with the power. It does not happen here in Malaysia. Many muslims leave their Deen and they are still alive to tell their tale. I believe the same in Indonesia.format_quote Originally Posted by Genesis
Murdered as you say... then it is the murderer that has to answer when his time comes on the day of judgement.
There are "reformative camps" in malaysia and indonesia where those who want to convert to christianity can be sent to. My friend was sent to one in indonesia. He says he feared for his live the whole time he was there. but don't take my word for it...format_quote Originally Posted by greenhillPerhaps, but that is entirely dependent on where you are and the people who are entrusted with the power. It does not happen here in Malaysia. Many muslims leave their Deen and they are still alive to tell their tale. I believe the same in Indonesia.
Murdered as you say... then it is the murderer that has to answer when his time comes on the day of judgement.
But Greenhill. Murder is murder. It is the Quran and Hadith that say to kill the apostate.format_quote Originally Posted by greenhillPerhaps, but that is entirely dependent on where you are and the people who are entrusted with the power. It does not happen here in Malaysia. Many muslims leave their Deen and they are still alive to tell their tale. I believe the same in Indonesia.
Murdered as you say... then it is the murderer that has to answer when his time comes on the day of judgement.
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