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    Offensive Jihad (OP)


    Hey everyone. Can someone please clarify to me about Offensive Jihad? Is it true that Islam allows things like what Islamic State in Iraq is doing?

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    Re: Offensive Jihad

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    Greetings Intotherain.
    You say Jesus was not a pacifist and will return to kill the anti-Christ . Jesus while on earth never advocated violence. You are correct as to how he will come at the end times. But you are stretching this too far by using this to justify Jihad. We are talking about how God wants us, as people, to relate to other people. This discussion is not about the end times. It is about how we are told to treat others now. Jesus was a pacifist.
    Greetings to you too Genesis

    The war with Dajjal/anti-christ is an event that occurs before the end of time and not something that occurs during the end of time. The end of time is a day of terror and something that the believers will not be subjected to. On that day the Angel Israfil(AS) will blow his trumpet 3 times. The first time it is blown will strike terror into the hearts of desbelievers and there will be much panic; it is a day of unimaginable terror.

    Al-Qari'ah (the striking Hour i.e. the Day of Resurrection), What is the striking (Hour)? And what will make you know what the striking (Hour) is? It is a Day whereon mankind will be like moths scattered about, And the mountains will be like carded wool,
    (Al-Qari'ah 101:1-5)

    O mankind! Fear your Lord and be dutiful to Him! Verily, the earthquake of the Hour (of Judgement) is a terrible thing.
    (Al-Hajj 22:1)


    So Isa(AS) fights not because it is the end of time but because the criterion has been met to fight. Until the arrival of Isa(AS) his army will be led by Imam Mahdi(RA); a descendant of Mohammad(SAW). Isa(AS) will not come as a Massenger but as a Prophet and a follower of Mohammad(SAW). After the war there will be a period of peace and he will marry as due to the circumstances of his previous time on earth wasn't ideal of him to do such things. There will be such peace that even the wolves will play with lambs. However after the death of Isa(AS) mankind will again face trials and tribulations until it reaches the state where people not know anything of religion except that they remember their parents saying "Allah". After all the believers die the trumpet will be blown. Our scholars have written many books on these issues.

    Point I am trying to make is:

    1) Isa(AS) does not fight because it is the end of time but rather because his situation and circumstance permits it.
    2) even after the war with the anti-christ there will be a period of time before the end of time signified by the blowing of the trumpet. End of time will not begin with the re-arrival of Isa(AS) but rather is an important event before the day of judgement.
    3) Isa(AS) is not a pacifist and will fight under the right circumstance. Time is not a factor here.

    So even Isa(AS) knows there are circumstances under which one has to fight to preserve good and spread it.


    Some other general points:
    - Fighting at times is the only form of defence and offence at times is the best form of defence.
    - Prevention is better then cure; naturally Muslims had to ensure control over their lands so that their enemies who were greater in number and better equiped could not use them as leverage against them. This should be quite obvious if the world super powers of the time are seeking ways to destroy you you do not wait like lambs to the slaughter.
    - When believers fight it is to ensure the spread and survival of believers and their belief. Not for material gain nor to force others into their belief. But rather to facilitate the spread of the message, its practice and its protection.

    "O you who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well acquainted with all that you do." [Quran 4:135]

    "Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." {Quran 2:190]

    And in Islam there are protocol that must be followed even during war and History attests to the exceptional conduct of Muslims while they where in power and during war. See link to my thread below "Tolerance: Hallmark of Muslim Character"

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    You ask what makes me think Isa would not have done the same? Remember - Jesus was persecuted by the religious authorities and eventually crucified. He said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”
    That is because Isa(AS) was being persecuted and so were the Muslims at one stage and it lasted 13 years. You need to look at the context. Understand that they did not fight back while they were being persecuted nor did Mohammad(SAW) ever encourage them to because
    1) it would have been suicide.
    2) it would have turned the people against them completely.

    To emphasise the kind and tolerant nature of Mohammad(SAW) Allah Says in the Quran:
    "Due to Allah's mercy, you are gentle with them. Had you been severe and harsh hearted, they would have fled from around you." ((3:159)

    I recommend reading related topics for a better understanding:
    Tolerance: A Hallmark Of Muslim Character
    Islam Spread By Sword

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    The link says violence in the Quran is largely a defense against attack by the standards of the 7th Century. So is the Quran only for the 7th Century then. Is it not the absolute timeless book for all people at all times?
    I am not sure what he was reffering to but certainly Islam is for all times.


    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    Also as I’ve been saying Surah 2.29 is obviously not about self defense. As well as that the “Rightly Guided Caliphs” were expansionist and imperialist. They initiated offensive warfare.
    The link also mentions the wars between Protestants and Catholics. These wars were political and cultural. As I’ve already demonstrated, you will not find anything in the New Covenant Injil that justifies warfare. The Quran is different. It has many passages that people rightly or wrongly use to justify war.

    You quote two New Covenant verses - Luke 19:27 and Luke 22:36. If you read Luke 19.27 properly you will see it is a parable. An allegory. This is not Jesus saying to have enemies killed in front of him. If you read it in context from verse 12 you will see it is about receiving rewards and punishments after death.
    Similar to Luke 22.36. If you read it properly you will see it was merely a symbolic act so as to fulfill the prophesy from
    Isaiah 53.12 that he would be countered as a transgressor. This has nothing to do with armed Jihad.
    Had I wanted I could have given you more verses from the Bible however my objective isn't to demonize Christianity nor am I going to try challenge you to show I know your religion better then you and the Christian masses.

    However we both need to accept there are passage in our Holy Scriptures which can be misinterpreted which will give rise to extremism. This is why when God sends massengers along with revelations; the book is never enough. the Sunnah of learning is that you learn under someone. God taught his Massengers; His massengers taught their people, those who learnt from the massenger in turn taught others etc because men need to be guided on:

    1) what they understood from the revelations (knowledge) so as not to misinterpret it
    2) They then need to be shown how to put that knowledge into practice. That is the proper application of knowledge.

    infact in Islam even the Ijaza(chain of succesion) to learn or to teach is preserved. For example one of my teachers(RA) whom I was learning Qirat (the proper recitation of the Qur'an) from has a certificate with the following Ijaza so we know he has a rope going to:

    Abu ‘Amr Ad-Danni
    Abul Hasan At-Tahir
    Salih Al-Hashimi
    Ahmad Al-Ushnani
    Muhammad ‘Ubaid As-Sabbah
    Imam Hafs
    Imam ‘Asim Al-Kufi
    ‘Abd’ulLah Habib As-Salami,
    ashab-e-kiram
    who learnt from the following Sahabahs:
    Uthman ibn Affan; Ali ibn Abi Talib; Zayd ibn Thabit; ‘Abd’ulLah ibn Mas’ud; and Ubay ibn Ka’b [radiALlahu anhum] who all heard from
    Muhammad Al-Mustapha [salla’Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam] to whom it was revealed, via the medium of the Arch-Angel Jibra’il [alayhis salam], from Allah Rabbul ‘Alamin [the Lord of the Worlds].

    Similiarly there are Ijazas for for one to be qualified as a Mufassir, Muhaddith, Faqih, Mufti etc so this shows the person is qualified. And if there should be a conflicitng opinion amongst them we have been instructed by MOhammad(SAW) to follow the Majority because the Mercy of God with will be with the Majority. Scholars are the inheritors of the Prophet(SAW).

    Unfortunately not just non-muslims but muslims who aren't qualified also take directly from Qur'an and Hadith. The problem becomes even more severe when such people who aren't qualified are put in a position of influence or make institution which doesn't follow this tradition. Focusing or cherry picking parts of Qur'an or Hadith and not considering the entirety of Qur'an and Sunnah as taught by Mohammad(SAW) through our Ulema will lead to extremism.

    What I am saying Genesis, ironic as it may seem, is that a Minority of Muslims may agree with your view that Islam is a advocates the use of violence/war for material gain and they would be labelled as extremists. Infact there might be a role for you on ISIS

    Regards
    Last edited by InToTheRain; 09-02-2014 at 03:16 PM.
    Offensive Jihad

    Ward the Pirate - Muslim Warrior of the Sea
    "Go tell the King of England, go tell him this from me,
    If he reign king of all the land, I will reign king at sea."

    The Great Dive
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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    Quote Originally Posted by Tayyip View Post
    I don't believe ISIS is the bad organization the media lets them out to be, whenever they show ISIS they always show the violence they do what about the violence countless other people do? why not show the same violent images acted out by American soldiers killing countless innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? Media is showing bad things about ISIS on purpose to make image of Islam bad. Let me tell you this, if you are actually in Syria then you will know what is really going on in there but if you are NOT in Syria then you have no right to claim anything on who is bad or good. - Except for Assad we all know he is bad.


    A renowned scholar of Syria has said and I quote:

    "Khilafah state ISIS declared is illegitimate; its followers are deviators. Supporting it is haram. It must be stopped and will be defeated."
    "The threat IS brings against Islam requires serious action by Muslim scholars such as a conference & a fatwa of by a thousand scholars."
    Offensive Jihad

    Ward the Pirate - Muslim Warrior of the Sea
    "Go tell the King of England, go tell him this from me,
    If he reign king of all the land, I will reign king at sea."

    The Great Dive
    Shaikh Abdul Hakim Murad aka Dr Tim Winters

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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    Quote Originally Posted by InToTheRain View Post
    Greetings to you too Genesis

    The war with Dajjal/anti-christ is an event that occurs before the end of time and not something that occurs during the end of time. The end of time is a day of terror and something that the believers will not be subjected to. On that day the Angel Israfil(AS) will blow his trumpet 3 times. The first time it is blown will strike terror into the hearts of desbelievers and there will be much panic; it is a day of unimaginable terror.

    Al-Qari'ah (the striking Hour i.e. the Day of Resurrection), What is the striking (Hour)? And what will make you know what the striking (Hour) is? It is a Day whereon mankind will be like moths scattered about, And the mountains will be like carded wool,
    (Al-Qari'ah 101:1-5)

    O mankind! Fear your Lord and be dutiful to Him! Verily, the earthquake of the Hour (of Judgement) is a terrible thing.
    (Al-Hajj 22:1)


    So Isa(AS) fights not because it is the end of time but because the criterion has been met to fight. Until the arrival of Isa(AS) his army will be led by Imam Mahdi(RA); a descendant of Mohammad(SAW). Isa(AS) will not come as a Massenger but as a Prophet and a follower of Mohammad(SAW). After the war there will be a period of peace and he will marry as due to the circumstances of his previous time on earth wasn't ideal of him to do such things. There will be such peace that even the wolves will play with lambs. However after the death of Isa(AS) mankind will again face trials and tribulations until it reaches the state where people not know anything of religion except that they remember their parents saying "Allah". After all the believers die the trumpet will be blown. Our scholars have written many books on these issues.

    Point I am trying to make is:

    1) Isa(AS) does not fight because it is the end of time but rather because his situation and circumstance permits it.
    2) even after the war with the anti-christ there will be a period of time before the end of time signified by the blowing of the trumpet. End of time will not begin with the re-arrival of Isa(AS) but rather is an important event before the day of judgement.
    3) Isa(AS) is not a pacifist and will fight under the right circumstance. Time is not a factor here.

    So even Isa(AS) knows there are circumstances under which one has to fight to preserve good and spread it.


    Some other general points:
    - Fighting at times is the only form of defence and offence at times is the best form of defence.
    - Prevention is better then cure; naturally Muslims had to ensure control over their lands so that their enemies who were greater in number and better equiped could not use them as leverage against them. This should be quite obvious if the world super powers of the time are seeking ways to destroy you you do not wait like lambs to the slaughter.
    - When believers fight it is to ensure the spread and survival of believers and their belief. Not for material gain nor to force others into their belief. But rather to facilitate the spread of the message, its practice and its protection.

    "O you who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well acquainted with all that you do." [Quran 4:135]

    "Fight in the Way of God against those who fight you, but do not go beyond the limits. God does not love those who go beyond the limits." {Quran 2:190]

    And in Islam there are protocol that must be followed even during war and History attests to the exceptional conduct of Muslims while they where in power and during war. See link to my thread below "Tolerance: Hallmark of Muslim Character"



    That is because Isa(AS) was being persecuted and so were the Muslims at one stage and it lasted 13 years. You need to look at the context. Understand that they did not fight back while they were being persecuted nor did Mohammad(SAW) ever encourage them to because
    1) it would have been suicide.
    2) it would have turned the people against them completely.

    To emphasise the kind and tolerant nature of Mohammad(SAW) Allah Says in the Quran:
    "Due to Allah's mercy, you are gentle with them. Had you been severe and harsh hearted, they would have fled from around you." ((3:159)

    I recommend reading related topics for a better understanding:
    Tolerance: A Hallmark Of Muslim Character
    Islam Spread By Sword



    I am not sure what he was reffering to but certainly Islam is for all times.




    Had I wanted I could have given you more verses from the Bible however my objective isn't to demonize Christianity nor am I going to try challenge you to show I know your religion better then you and the Christian masses.

    However we both need to accept there are passage in our Holy Scriptures which can be misinterpreted which will give rise to extremism. This is why when God sends massengers along with revelations; the book is never enough. the Sunnah of learning is that you learn under someone. God taught his Massengers; His massengers taught their people, those who learnt from the massenger in turn taught others etc because men need to be guided on:

    1) what they understood from the revelations (knowledge) so as not to misinterpret it
    2) They then need to be shown how to put that knowledge into practice. That is the proper application of knowledge.

    infact in Islam even the Ijaza(chain of succesion) to learn or to teach is preserved. For example one of my teachers(RA) whom I was learning Qirat (the proper recitation of the Qur'an) from has a certificate with the following Ijaza so we know he has a rope going to:

    Abu ‘Amr Ad-Danni
    Abul Hasan At-Tahir
    Salih Al-Hashimi
    Ahmad Al-Ushnani
    Muhammad ‘Ubaid As-Sabbah
    Imam Hafs
    Imam ‘Asim Al-Kufi
    ‘Abd’ulLah Habib As-Salami,
    ashab-e-kiram
    who learnt from the following Sahabahs:
    Uthman ibn Affan; Ali ibn Abi Talib; Zayd ibn Thabit; ‘Abd’ulLah ibn Mas’ud; and Ubay ibn Ka’b [radiALlahu anhum] who all heard from
    Muhammad Al-Mustapha [salla’Llahu ‘alayhi wa sallam] to whom it was revealed, via the medium of the Arch-Angel Jibra’il [alayhis salam], from Allah Rabbul ‘Alamin [the Lord of the Worlds].

    Similiarly there are Ijazas for for one to be qualified as a Mufassir, Muhaddith, Faqih, Mufti etc so this shows the person is qualified. And if there should be a conflicitng opinion amongst them we have been instructed by MOhammad(SAW) to follow the Majority because the Mercy of God with will be with the Majority. Scholars are the inheritors of the Prophet(SAW).

    Unfortunately not just non-muslims but muslims who aren't qualified also take directly from Qur'an and Hadith. The problem becomes even more severe when such people who aren't qualified are put in a position of influence or make institution which doesn't follow this tradition. Focusing or cherry picking parts of Qur'an or Hadith and not considering the entirety of Qur'an and Sunnah as taught by Mohammad(SAW) through our Ulema will lead to extremism.

    What I am saying Genesis, ironic as it may seem, is that a Minority of Muslims may agree with your view that Islam is a advocates the use of violence/war for material gain and they would be labelled as extremists. Infact there might be a role for you on ISIS

    Regards
    The Injil is a reliable historical record as to the man Isa that walked the earth 2000 years ago. If you read the Injil you will see he was a pacifist, unlike Mohammad who lived by the sword.
    Everything you have talked about is to do with the end times. It was the example Isa set 2000 years ago that is the example to our conduct today. Isa required believers to follow his example when he said –

    "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching.
    John 14.23

    So because Isa also said -

    But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”
    Mathew 5.39.

    “Put away your sword, Jesus told him. Those who use the sword will die by the sword.”
    Mathew 26.52.

    Then it means we are to follow his example and not be people of the sword. You say fighting at times is the only form of defense and offence at times is the best form of defense. My question is who is to say what is defense and what is offense. That’s why Muslim groups like ISIS exist because Muslims are confused and the Quaran and hadith are not clear.

    You say fighting is not for material gain nor to force others into their belief. However If you read Surah 9.28 – 30 you will see that the Quran is talking about fighting against Jews and Christians due to their wrong beliefs and for material gain.

    You also say in Islam there are protocol that must be followed even during war and history attests to the exceptional conduct of Muslims while they where in power and during war. Intotherain doesn’t Bukhari record that Mohammad had his enemies tortured by having their hands and feet cut off and then he ordered for hot nails to be put into their eyes ? How is that tolerance?

    You say Isa was being persecuted and so were the Muslims. The difference is however Isa said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”
    Muslims on the other hand responded with the sword. When you read the context behind Surah 9.28-30, Mohammad’s letters to the Kings and Ibn Kathirs commentary it appears it was Muslims doing the persecuting. The Caliphate under the “Rightly Guided Caliphs” was expansionist and imperialist. This could only be so if they initiated offensive warfare. Not defense.

    You say you could give me more verses from the Bible however your objective isn't to demonize Christianity.
    Don’t worry about demonizing Christianity Intotherain. I won’t take offence. Please send me the other verses from the Bible you are thinking of.

    You say we both need to accept there are passage in our Holy Scriptures which can be misinterpreted which will give rise to extremism. Yes, Christians in the past have been influenced by the Jewish Old Covenant scriptures. But only because as Christians (Christ Ones) they did not know Christ Jesus The Messiah. However the book of the Christians - the Injil is very clear that we are not to live by the sword. The Quran and hadith are not as clear and that is why Islam has this problem.

    You talk about the transmission of truth down through teachers and the Sunnah of learning that you learn under someone else qualified. My question then is - If it is that difficult to get the truth and it is so complicated how can Islam be a message to mankind?

    Blessings


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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    The Injil is a reliable historical record as to the man Isa that walked the earth 2000 years ago. If you read the Injil you will see he was a pacifist, unlike Mohammad who lived by the sword.
    What Non-Muslims Say About Prophet Muhammad (Mohammed)

    Regards
    Offensive Jihad

    Ward the Pirate - Muslim Warrior of the Sea
    "Go tell the King of England, go tell him this from me,
    If he reign king of all the land, I will reign king at sea."

    The Great Dive
    Shaikh Abdul Hakim Murad aka Dr Tim Winters

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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    The Injil is a reliable historical record as to the man Isa that walked the earth 2000 years ago. If you read the Injil you will see he was a pacifist, unlike Mohammad who lived by the sword.
    Everything you have talked about is to do with the end times. It was the example Isa set 2000 years ago that is the example to our conduct today. Isa required believers to follow his example when he said –

    "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching.
    John 14.23

    So because Isa also said -

    “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”
    Mathew 5.39.

    “Put away your sword, Jesus told him. Those who use the sword will die by the sword.”
    Mathew 26.52.
    Allow me to jump in. the Injil has been changed too many times to count. Have you read the actual Aramaic version of the Injil and understood it. The Aramaic as it was when it was revealed to Jesus (as) 2000 years ago? I don't think so. You read translations of the Bible which have been changed. So let's not call a changed text historical, shall we? It is dishonest and above all, intellectually dishonest. Every Christian I have talked to so far in my life, in person, has openly admitted the Bible has changed. This is why so many Christians became Atheists, because they knew the Bible is changed and they are not following a text which is authentic.

    As for living by the sword, Christians have done so for a long time. Many countries with people of Christian background and religion are war-mongers. Look at the United States! Republicans are conservative Christians, and most Christians there are just hoping for Armageddon and the destruction of the Muslim countries. Christians do more than living by the sword. They hold the sword above other people's heads and blame them for when it falls on them. Your text has no bearing on the acts of Christians. I know just how hypocritical they are. Do evil and Christ forgives your sins, right? Right, just go baptize in a river and all is okay. Even if you were the worst person on earth. That is some form of salvation! I discussed Christianity with Christians before and the hardcore believers truly stand by this. If Christ saves the evildoer, according to you, then what about the ones who did not find justice? Is justice found for a crime if the victim's perpetrator of the crime is vindicated just because they get baptized in a river?

    To be honest, even if you think that river of water for baptizing saves you, it is really a river of fire. For that river does not save, and it does not erase sin. Sin hangs to you by your neck, and you bring your deeds with you on the Day of Judgment. Everyone bears their own cross, pardon the pun. But I congratulate you if you are a Christian who doesn't stick to this type of doctrine like the hardcore Christians I spoke with on this subject. I commend you if you believe that sins are stuck with you until you truly ask God for forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't happen with a splash. It happens with tears, with sweat, with fearful and sad prayers to God, hoping that He pardons you because you love Him and for fear of His wrath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    Then it means we are to follow his example and not be people of the sword. You say fighting at times is the only form of defense and offence at times is the best form of defense. My question is who is to say what is defense and what is offense. That’s why Muslim groups like ISIS exist because Muslims are confused and the Quaran and hadith are not clear.
    Crusades happened, Spanish inquisition happened. These were Christians. Tell me, how clear is your scripture with such groups? Again, Republican war-mongers, who are right conservative Christians are no different. They all speak of war. It was war that caused ISIS to spring up. It is a political problem, and it is not religious. This is a problem which started with the Gulf Crisis in Iraq. This did not come up overnight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    You say fighting is not for material gain nor to force others into their belief. However If you read Surah 9.28 – 30 you will see that the Quran is talking about fighting against Jews and Christians due to their wrong beliefs and for material gain.

    You also say in Islam there are protocol that must be followed even during war and history attests to the exceptional conduct of Muslims while they where in power and during war. Intotherain doesn’t Bukhari record that Mohammad had his enemies tortured by having their hands and feet cut off and then he ordered for hot nails to be put into their eyes ? How is that tolerance?
    Are you talking about the incident in which some people came as believers to Medina, fell sick and they were treated by a shepherd of the Holy Prophet (saw), and then after they got better they killed his (saw)'s shepherd, and took the flock of sheep and released them, even though this flock was from the charity of the people and meant to be utilized for charitable purposes? These people rode off having declared war on the Muslims. That was a clear act of war because the following verse was revealed in regards to this very situation:

    5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

    The object underlying the injunction embodied in the words, "their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides," is, on the one hand, to disable the culprit from carrying on a war of aggression, and on the other, to leave him fit enough to earn his living by doing some work. The cutting off of the hand and the foot on the same side would leave the victim utterly helpless. The verse also shows that Islam does not hesitate to take extreme measures to uproot an evil when the interests of society or the State demand it. Islam is not a religion of false sentiments but of sound judgement and true reason.

    Christianity does not speak of such laws. If this happened to Christians, then should they go run after that group of renegades, and tell them, "hold on! Kill another one of us! We have to follow the motto ,'turn the other cheek'!" I highly doubt it. If that was your shepherd, and they took care of those people who killed him, then would you not bring them to justice? Your Bible does not provide any solutions to this problem, it only feeds fuel to the fire and allows more innocent lives to be killed. Turning the other cheek every time someone does injustice to you is very wrong. If a rapist were to rape someone, would you say, "Hey! Rape them again!" These extreme situations do not call for turning the other cheek. There needs to be punishments that do justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    You say Isa was being persecuted and so were the Muslims. The difference is however Isa said “But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”
    Muslims on the other hand responded with the sword. When you read the context behind Surah 9.28-30, Mohammad’s letters to the Kings and Ibn Kathirs commentary it appears it was Muslims doing the persecuting. The Caliphate under the “Rightly Guided Caliphs” was expansionist and imperialist. This could only be so if they initiated offensive warfare. Not defense.
    I already explained these verses to you before. Yet you ignored them. If the Bible says this:

    Matthew 10:34
    ""Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

    Then what do you say? I could keep quoting this again and again, allow you to explain yourself, and then ignore you and talk about this verse in my own interpretation again. Then I could say, "well, it's not clear!"

    Funny how you twist what you say. You said the Qur'an is clear before to me, and yet you say the Qur'an is not clear to IntotheRain! This is low-handed Genesis. If you don't know something, then just ask. Don't twist things and throw your own opinionated interpretations into the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genesis View Post
    You talk about the transmission of truth down through teachers and the Sunnah of learning that you learn under someone else qualified. My question then is - If it is that difficult to get the truth and it is so complicated how can Islam be a message to mankind?
    The Qur'an was revealed 1400 years ago, and is a text which must be understood with the context of the time and place it was revealed in. It requires that knowledge so we can extend that knowledge to what we know ourselves. It was a different time period, in a different part of the world, and it requires some sides knowledge.

    The Sunnah is the actions we learn. These actions are transmitted through the people who observed the Holy Prophet (saw) and his actions. These are actions we follow and which are preserved. The strictness in interpretations is so that deviations don't occur. Even if they do, there is one guideline to following it. The following Hadith explains this:

    It has been related by, Yazid b. al-Asamm that he heard Mu'awiya b. Abu Sfyan quote a tradition from the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) which he related from the Prophet (mail peace he upon him) -and he did not hear him quote from the Holy Prophet (masy peace be upon him) any tradition other than this in the course of his sermon from the pulpit-that whom Allah wants to do a favour, He grants him an understanding of religion. A group of people from the Muslims will remain on the Right Path and continue until the Day of Judgment to triumph over those who oppose them. (Book #020, Hadith #4720)
    (Sahih Bukhari)

    Islam is a certain religion with certain rules. Nothing is not explained. Every common Muslim is different, but the religion remains the same always, and there is always a group which is correct. They started off strange in the beginning of Islam, and end up strange once again in the End of Times. So even if a time comes when most Muslims do not know what is correct, then this does not harm the group which is always in the right.

    And Allah gets the message of Islam to mankind. He does so through His Prophets:

    9:33 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

    This is destined to occur in the time when Isa (as) descends and spreads the truth of Islam everywhere. That is what this verse refers to. Because Islam is destined to become dominant over all religions in his time period, not in anyone else's. The Day of Judgment cannot happen until that time. So there is no doubt that Islam will spread everywhere.

    When Islam is dominant, then after some time after Isa (as) is gone from this world, for God knows how long, the world will be in peace, then the believers will slowly die off because Allah wants that to happen. Only the worst of people will be left in the world and then the Hour is established on these people who live comfortable lives, but they do not remember Allah. They would return to idolatry and fornicate like animals in the streets.
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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    we cannot say whether they show their brutality themselves or not because we are not there. Allah knows the best who is doing what! So we pray to Allah to decide the case and bring Fath and Nasar to the Just, Fair and Merciful people. Allah knows who they are and Allah has the Power to help them. May Allah end the cruelty and killing done by cruel killers, aameen, Allah knows who are they. O Muslims, you and we all must pray to Allah to send HIS HELP to the just and truly merciful people and I believe they are Muslims and only Muslims.
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  10. #87
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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H View Post
    Allow me to jump in. the Injil has been changed too many times to count. Have you read the actual Aramaic version of the Injil and understood it. The Aramaic as it was when it was revealed to Jesus (as) 2000 years ago? I don't think so. You read translations of the Bible which have been changed. So let's not call a changed text historical, shall we? It is dishonest and above all, intellectually dishonest. Every Christian I have talked to so far in my life, in person, has openly admitted the Bible has changed. This is why so many Christians became Atheists, because they knew the Bible is changed and they are not following a text which is authentic.

    As for living by the sword, Christians have done so for a long time. Many countries with people of Christian background and religion are war-mongers. Look at the United States! Republicans are conservative Christians, and most Christians there are just hoping for Armageddon and the destruction of the Muslim countries. Christians do more than living by the sword. They hold the sword above other people's heads and blame them for when it falls on them. Your text has no bearing on the acts of Christians. I know just how hypocritical they are. Do evil and Christ forgives your sins, right? Right, just go baptize in a river and all is okay. Even if you were the worst person on earth. That is some form of salvation! I discussed Christianity with Christians before and the hardcore believers truly stand by this. If Christ saves the evildoer, according to you, then what about the ones who did not find justice? Is justice found for a crime if the victim's perpetrator of the crime is vindicated just because they get baptized in a river?

    To be honest, even if you think that river of water for baptizing saves you, it is really a river of fire. For that river does not save, and it does not erase sin. Sin hangs to you by your neck, and you bring your deeds with you on the Day of Judgment. Everyone bears their own cross, pardon the pun. But I congratulate you if you are a Christian who doesn't stick to this type of doctrine like the hardcore Christians I spoke with on this subject. I commend you if you believe that sins are stuck with you until you truly ask God for forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't happen with a splash. It happens with tears, with sweat, with fearful and sad prayers to God, hoping that He pardons you because you love Him and for fear of His wrath.



    Crusades happened, Spanish inquisition happened. These were Christians. Tell me, how clear is your scripture with such groups? Again, Republican war-mongers, who are right conservative Christians are no different. They all speak of war. It was war that caused ISIS to spring up. It is a political problem, and it is not religious. This is a problem which started with the Gulf Crisis in Iraq. This did not come up overnight.



    Are you talking about the incident in which some people came as believers to Medina, fell sick and they were treated by a shepherd of the Holy Prophet (saw), and then after they got better they killed his (saw)'s shepherd, and took the flock of sheep and released them, even though this flock was from the charity of the people and meant to be utilized for charitable purposes? These people rode off having declared war on the Muslims. That was a clear act of war because the following verse was revealed in regards to this very situation:

    5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.

    The object underlying the injunction embodied in the words, "their hands and their feet be cut off on alternate sides," is, on the one hand, to disable the culprit from carrying on a war of aggression, and on the other, to leave him fit enough to earn his living by doing some work. The cutting off of the hand and the foot on the same side would leave the victim utterly helpless. The verse also shows that Islam does not hesitate to take extreme measures to uproot an evil when the interests of society or the State demand it. Islam is not a religion of false sentiments but of sound judgement and true reason.

    Christianity does not speak of such laws. If this happened to Christians, then should they go run after that group of renegades, and tell them, "hold on! Kill another one of us! We have to follow the motto ,'turn the other cheek'!" I highly doubt it. If that was your shepherd, and they took care of those people who killed him, then would you not bring them to justice? Your Bible does not provide any solutions to this problem, it only feeds fuel to the fire and allows more innocent lives to be killed. Turning the other cheek every time someone does injustice to you is very wrong. If a rapist were to rape someone, would you say, "Hey! Rape them again!" These extreme situations do not call for turning the other cheek. There needs to be punishments that do justice.



    I already explained these verses to you before. Yet you ignored them. If the Bible says this:

    Matthew 10:34
    ""Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

    Then what do you say? I could keep quoting this again and again, allow you to explain yourself, and then ignore you and talk about this verse in my own interpretation again. Then I could say, "well, it's not clear!"

    Funny how you twist what you say. You said the Qur'an is clear before to me, and yet you say the Qur'an is not clear to IntotheRain! This is low-handed Genesis. If you don't know something, then just ask. Don't twist things and throw your own opinionated interpretations into the mix.



    The Qur'an was revealed 1400 years ago, and is a text which must be understood with the context of the time and place it was revealed in. It requires that knowledge so we can extend that knowledge to what we know ourselves. It was a different time period, in a different part of the world, and it requires some sides knowledge.

    The Sunnah is the actions we learn. These actions are transmitted through the people who observed the Holy Prophet (saw) and his actions. These are actions we follow and which are preserved. The strictness in interpretations is so that deviations don't occur. Even if they do, there is one guideline to following it. The following Hadith explains this:

    It has been related by, Yazid b. al-Asamm that he heard Mu'awiya b. Abu Sfyan quote a tradition from the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) which he related from the Prophet (mail peace he upon him) -and he did not hear him quote from the Holy Prophet (masy peace be upon him) any tradition other than this in the course of his sermon from the pulpit-that whom Allah wants to do a favour, He grants him an understanding of religion. A group of people from the Muslims will remain on the Right Path and continue until the Day of Judgment to triumph over those who oppose them. (Book #020, Hadith #4720)
    (Sahih Bukhari)

    Islam is a certain religion with certain rules. Nothing is not explained. Every common Muslim is different, but the religion remains the same always, and there is always a group which is correct. They started off strange in the beginning of Islam, and end up strange once again in the End of Times. So even if a time comes when most Muslims do not know what is correct, then this does not harm the group which is always in the right.

    And Allah gets the message of Islam to mankind. He does so through His Prophets:

    9:33 It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it).

    This is destined to occur in the time when Isa (as) descends and spreads the truth of Islam everywhere. That is what this verse refers to. Because Islam is destined to become dominant over all religions in his time period, not in anyone else's. The Day of Judgment cannot happen until that time. So there is no doubt that Islam will spread everywhere.

    When Islam is dominant, then after some time after Isa (as) is gone from this world, for God knows how long, the world will be in peace, then the believers will slowly die off because Allah wants that to happen. Only the worst of people will be left in the world and then the Hour is established on these people who live comfortable lives, but they do not remember Allah. They would return to idolatry and fornicate like animals in the streets.
    You say the Injil has been changed too many times to count. Where is your proof? Who changed it? When was it changed? How was it changed ? and Why ? Actually the new testament is the most valid of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, and ancient copies covered such a wide geographic area that it was impossible for them to be gathered together and falsified or changed.
    You have no record of the Quran before Uthman burnt all original copies. So how do you know you have the real thing?
    In fact the only pre Uthman copy in existence was found in Yemen in the 1970s and it reveals many problems in the transmission of what you think the Quran is.

    You ask if I have read the actual Aramaic version of the Injil. Actually the Injil was written in Greek, not Aramaic.
    Can you read Classical Arabic? If so you would be in the minority of Muslims. Considering the Quran as being the “Word of God” and can only be really understood in Classical Arabic, I don’t see how that qualifies it to be “The Word of God”. It makes more sense to me that if God wanted to communicate truth he would be able to do it in any or all languages. Not just Arabic.

    Have you ever read the Injil? If you do you will see it was not actually revealed to Jesus in Aramaic as you say. Rather it is eye witness accounts of what Jesus did and said. It is similar to your hadith than the Quran in that respect. It was also recorded in the life times of those eye witnesses. Unlike your most reliable hadith which was written 200 after the events.

    You talk about translations of the Bible being a problem. You can read the Injil in the original Greek if you want. Most Christian leaders have been trained in Greek.

    Even the Quran speaks of the New Testament as The Word of God. No where does it say it was changed or corrupted.

    Say: “O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord.”
    Surah 5:68

    And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me.
    S. 2:41

    You say so many Christians became Atheists because they know the Bible is changed and not authentic. That’s kind of funny when you consider so many Muslims becoming atheists or changing their religion due to problems with the Quran and Islamist extremists like ISIS.

    You say Christians have lived by the sword and are war-mongers such as the United States with Republicans hoping for Armageddon and the destruction of the Muslim countries. You forget the United States is a secular government. Church and state are separate. It is not a theocracy similar to where Muslims try to achieve religion and state being combined. So to try to say that the actions of the United States is Christian has no basis.

    I’m not sure what you’re going on about being baptized into rivers of fire, justice, sin, etc and forgiveness doesn't happen with a splash ???? Maybe you should leave Christian doctrine up to Christians.

    You say salvation only happens with tears, sweat, and fearful sad prayers to God, hoping that He pardons you. So what makes you think that will ever be good enough? What makes you think your tears, sweat, fear and prayers will ever be enough? That’s the difference. We recognize no human with all their best efforts can ever be enough to please the Most Holy God. That is why only He can do it through his grace.

    You mention the crusades and Inquisition. The crusades and Inquisition were political and cultural movements in the clothes of religion. My challenge to you stands. Find me any where in the Christian New Testament for verses that justify the behavior of the crusades or inquisition. You will not find it. The Quran and hadith are full of these verses however.
    You talk about Christian Conservative Republican war mongers. What you don’t understand is that the USA is a secular government where religion and politics are separate. This is different from Islam where religion and government are one.
    You say the problem with ISIS stated in the first Gulf war. I disagree. The problem with ISIS started with the split between Sunni and Shiite centuries ago.

    Yes you are correct. I’m talking about when Mohammad orderedhis enemies hands and feet to be cut off and burning nails put into their eyes. You neglected to mention the sadistic detail of the burning nails put into their eyes. How come?
    The fact that you justify this kind of behavior is sick. And it’s this kind of thinking that leads to the sick evil behavior from Muslim groups such as ISIS.

    You say it shows that Islam does not hesitate to take extreme measures to uproot an evil. Extreme measures to stick burning nails into peoples eyes! Islam taking extreme measures. So which Muslims within Islam are taking extreme measures? Al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS ?

    You ask what would Christians do if there is injustice or they were being attacked or raped? You say there needs to be punishment for justice and the Bible does not provide any solutions to this problem. You raise very good and difficult questions for Christians. However you are only partly right when you say the Bible does not provide a solution. The Bible makes the distinction between individual conscience and the state where it states -

    The authorities are God's servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God's servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong.
    Romans 13.4

    Jesus said, "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God."
    Mark 12.17

    As a result Christians are subject to the state government and authorities, and if the state ordered Christians to fight in the military they need to exercise individual conscience whether to do so or not. Christians look to a higher kingdom, and we accept that our behavior will not always achieve the higher ideal. As unobtainable as that standard maybe, it is still a standard to aspire to and as a standard it is morally and ethically higher than that of revenge and retribution that you are promoting.

    As a result there will always be an expectation for Christians to forgive and not retaliate. Throughout Christian history there have always been Christian pacifists and many have been imprisoned or persecuted for their beliefs.

    You are wrong when you say turning the other cheek only feeds fuel to the fire and allows more innocent lives to be killed. If you look at human history and human nature through time you will see war after war due to revenge and retribution. Only forgiveness breaks that cycle.

    You said you have already explained Surah 9.28-30. Actually Ahmad you have not adequately explained Surah 9.28-30. All you have said is that it was a time where Muslims launched a pre emptive strike against the Romans in self defense. The support you gave from Ibn Kathir does not contradict what I have already quoted from Ibn Kathir. Your explanation is not adequate. You have given poor proof for this while I have given proven through the historical and literary context. Once again – the context is clear the Romans did not attack the Muslims but the Muslims attacked them for money. Have a good read of Surah 9.28 -30, Mohammad’s letters and Ibn Katir.

    You claim I said to you that the Qur'an is clear but yet I said the Qur'an is not clear to IntotheRain. You misunderstand Ahmad.
    I never said to you the Quaran is clear. I don’t believe it is clear. Its just that you and Intotherain have been trying to avoid the reality of Surah 9.28-30 by saying it is not clear, needs to be read in context, or we need some kind of special knowledge. So my point to you both is that if the Quaran is clear as it states it is, then you and Intotherain are contradicting the Quran.

    You say the Quran is a text which must be understood with the context of the time and place it was revealed in. Once again you have avoided the context of Surah 9.28 -30. All you have said so far is that it was a time where Muslims launched a pre emptive strike in defense. This is no explanation. You have given no proof where I have proven the literary and historical context to you. I have provided adequate proof. Where is yours?

    You say there is a group which is correct, that started off strange in the beginning of Islam, and end up strange once again in the End of Times. This sounds like some kind of mystery, elite. How can so many be wrong if the Quran is excellent clear and perfect

    “This is) a Book, the Ayat whereof are perfect (in every sphere of knowledge), and then explained in detail from One (Allah), Who is All-Wise Well-Acquainted (with all things).”
    11.1,

    “These are the verses of the Book that is clear.”
    12.1 and 27.1.

    “A Book whereof the Ayat are explained in detail”
    41.3,

    “It is He Who sends down manifest Ayat to His servant that He may bring you out from darkness into light.”
    57.9.


  11. #88
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    Re: Offensive Jihad

    the Prophet said SAV , “When you indulge in al-`Eenah transactions, you follow the tails of cows, you become satisfied with farming, and you abandon Jihadin Allah's Path, Allah will put humiliation on you and will not remove it until you return to your religion.

    Now you can say why i just put this here i came to search i wrote ottoman empire that i see this topic then i searched ottoman empire in thread then i found some post but because of stupidness of something i dont know i could not read so i thought maybe someone wrote bad things about ottoman empire beacuse of history influenced by western infidels.

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