I have a quick question for the Muslims. As a Muslim, what takes preference, Islam or the Law Of The Land you live in?
Example 1) In the UK, you are not allowed to have 2 or more wives at the same time. Islam says a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time. So if a Muslim man lives in the UK, should he abide by the Law Of The Land first and foremost or should he just discard it because Islam says he can have 4 wives? What would be more important to him Islamically?
I do understand that you might feel “riled up”. But have you considered that your own comments might be hurtful to others?
Let me tell you a story, perhaps it will help you understand how your comments might wound...
Some 25 years ago or so, my husband and I were waiting for a bus. It was a sunny, but cold winter day (and in Canada, as you may have heard, we have genuine honest-to-goodness good winters!). So we were waiting inside the bus shelter, to take some of the chill of the wind off of us. Some other (white Canadian) people came, cheerful with the Christmas spirit, and started smoking. My husband politely asked them if they could smoke outside. They took one look at his Middle-Eastern face and said: “If you don't like it here, why don't you just go back to your own country!”
Do you know, daveyats, how many times I have heard variations of this phrase?
I mentioned in an earlier post, that we'd had some political struggles recently in my home province, that I had fought. Let me tell you a little more about that: The governing party wanted to convince the people of my province to vote for independence. But most people here are not all that interested in independence. So the government decided to pick on everyone's favourite minority: Muslims. They introduced some pretty sweeping legislation (with a little extra decoration, so as not to be accused of racism), that would have required me, if I wanted to exercise my profession, to remove my headscarf.
I was not willing to do this. And so were quite a few other Muslim women.
And guess what? One of the things which we were told was... you guessed it: if you don't like this legislation, why don't you leave?
I remember discussing this with some of my Muslim friends. I myself am Canadian by immigration from Europe. But I have friends whose families have their roots back 300 years. And I have a Native-Canadian friend whose roots far predate those of the white nationalists who were trying to tell us to leave. Why should any of us leave? Not even the worst criminals in society (and I'm talking murdering pedophiles here), are asked to leave. We accept that these people are one of us. Not nice people. Not people we'd want running loose in our communities. But still, they are our problem.
Even people who are distasteful, are part of us. This is my first point.
Secondly, when you tell people to leave, where on earth would you have them go?
Do you think that any Muslim can just turn up in another country and just start living there? That only wealthy first-world countries have border controls? That people have money to pay for leaving and setting up elsewhere? That they can just get a job and support their children in some foreign land where they don't know the language or culture, and are not used to the local conditions and diseases? Where perhaps they have no friends or relations or connections?
Muslims are human beings, daveyats. We have children. We have our friends and communities. We have our dreams. Our loves. Our lives. Perhaps it is not consciously realized, but when someone tells someone else to leave, they are treating them like some sort of inconvenient first-world garbage, that they want to conveniently dispose of into the seas of humanity... to wash up on some distant shore, perhaps, to decompose in someone else's backyard.
When someone tells me to leave, daveyats, it hurts me.
Please consider my words. I do not think you are a bad person. I suspect that you are on this Forum to try to convince people here that their beliefs are wrong, so that you can bring them towards what you believe will be good for them. This is not an evil intention. But if you are to engage in a fruitful discussion, I would suggest that you actually think about what people say. And respect that other people may disagree (everyone is doing this, you know. We all have points upon which we disagree).
I'm sorry if I hurt you, both with this text, and my with previous question to you.
May God Bless and Guide us all.
Last edited by MuslimInshallah; 09-17-2014 at 11:35 AM.
In Indonesia, if a Muslim want to marry second wife, he should get permission from sharia court. So, his second wife will be officially registered as his wife. Actually is not difficult to get this permission. As long as he get permission from the first wife (or older wives for third and fourth marriage), and sharia court consider him capable to have more than one wife, he will get this permission.
But very rare men who request permission from sharia court because usually they don't get permission from the first wife. So they marry the second wife secretly without register it to sharia court and civilian record office.
Assalaamu alaikum Ardianto,
I am curious: what is the status of these non-registered second wives and their children? Are they recognized in society as married? Do they have the same rights and protections as the first wives? Is the man expected to support them? Do they have inheritance rights? Can they obtain a divorce?
And another question: are there any social or legal consequences on the man and second wife?
I've seen this situation in a couple of other societies, and I am curious as to what the experience is like in Indonesia.
that is the "beauty" of democracy, everyone's rights and opinions are given fair representation. Yes, the other option is to get yourself heard and hopefully get the laws changed in your favor. but if the laws do not remain in your favor, i think it is fair enough to say you should respect it because you are sharing the country with people of other beliefs. Honestly, i don't even think the original question should've been asked in the first place unless the TS was referring to laws that are discriminatory.
Interesting how you recognize the very existence of "the other option" only after you had to have it spoon-fed to you. You wouldn't even move the goalposts until you had no choice but to drag them along or let go.
You are guilty of bigotry, and so is everyone who makes statements like "Conform to the laws and ways of the country or leave it", and there are no two ways about it. No other group than Muslims (regardless of whether they are immigrants) gets told this with regularity. Somehow, the right to disagree with the majority opinion (or any opinion for that matter) and to engage in civic action without having one's right to be a member of society come into question is recognized for everyone. Everyone gets it that such a thing comes with citizenship in a liberal democracy. Except when it comes to Muslims.
musliminshallah, I don't mean anything hurtful by my words. I do apologize to you and mynameiszzz because of my over-reaction. I'm against the kind of thinking that is possibly behind the question. When you ask a question like that - should i follow the laws of the land or my religion if they disagree - it just sounds to me like the person asking it has some arrogant sense of superiority or entitlement over others. Honestly, that gets me angry. would you agree with me that by respecting the common laws, you are respecting the beliefs and convictions of others? I think mutual respect is very important for people of different faiths to live together.
But I may have misunderstood mynameiszzz and jumped to conclusions. I still stand by my words, one option is to leave if you cannot accept compromises. its just an option I'm not saying its the only one and many people throughout history have done that at great risks to themselves. the other option is to stay, accept compromises and hope for changes, like what you did musliminshallah. martin luther king and gandhi...these guys won the respect of others by championing their convictions (not sense of entitlement) in a peaceful way.
I am curious: what is the status of these non-registered second wives and their children? Are they recognized in society as married? Do they have the same rights and protections as the first wives? Is the man expected to support them? Do they have inheritance rights? Can they obtain a divorce?
And another question: are there any social or legal consequences on the man and second wife?
I've seen this situation in a couple of other societies, and I am curious as to what the experience is like in Indonesia.
Jazakallah khairan!
Wa’alaikumsalam, sister.
Position of unregistered second wife is very weak because her husband can divorce her anytime, and she will not get a legal protection because the law see her as 'just someone else'. The worse thing is bad habit of Indonesian men that married another wife not for life time, but just for temporary. And the worst is, mostly of Indonesian men who married another wife have intention like this!.
Only small number of Indonesian men who married another wife with intention to take her as wife for life-time.
About second wife who unregistered but married to her husband for life time. If the first wife approve this marriage, then it will not become a problem for her. Society recognize her as a wife. And although she doesn't get legal protection, she still get het rights as a wife including inheritance rights. However, this is only if the first wife approve her, and usually it happen among very religious persons. But if the first wife didn't approve her as second wife, yeah, it could cause a problem for her.
If we talk about Islam, indeed, there's no rule in Islam that a man must get permission from the wife if he wants to get married again. But Indonesia is monogamy society. So, if a man get married again without permission from the first wife, society will stand with the first wife, not with this man.
law of the land should take precedent, im no expert but imo.
taking OP's example of multiple wives to extremes.
imagine a person with several girlfriends... its not against any law of the land.
and yet islamically people would not do it.
the law of the land states that a person can only be married to one wife.
and yet islamically a person could have several wives as long as he observes the rules set by his religion.. as long as he is willing to represent the laws of his religion properly, there should be no problem as to the rights of the wives.
the government may not consider his relationships valid but it would make little difference except to his entitlement from the government.
this may seem contradictory to my thinking that the laws of the land take precedent, but not really.
the laws of the land protect and represent each individual fairly within the populace.
but if you are willing to do that yourself then arguably the world would be a nicer place.
..its a naive view for sure, otherwise there would be no need for laws.
unfortunately OP's example is an easy one really, laws that directly contradict islamic practice can be pretty complex.
the head scarf thing in france really set the place off a while back.
it would have been an ideal time for people to make there votes count, if there was any acceptable alternative.
why cant you lot be more jewish?
...makes me wonder what character is actually good for the ummah.
I have a quick question for the Muslims. As a Muslim [...]
format_quote Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz
What would be more important to him Islamically?
Let us avoid turning this thread into a debate and hopefully the OP can get some answers and information from the Islamic viewpoint which is what he requested, as quoted above.
Stunningly beautiful adhaan from the Dome of the Rock in Masjid ul Aqsa Download (right click and choose "save target/link as").
This is a clear message for mankind in order that they may be warned thereby, and that they may know that He is only One God, and that those of understanding may take heed (14:52)
Indeed Allah knows, and you know not (16: 74, part)
And what about any children the second wife may have?
They will be difficult to get birth certificate. And the worse is, people see them as 'children without father'. It often cause depression among those children.
The purpose why govt invite the men to register their second marriage is to protect the children from second wives. But there is requirement that often can't be fulfilled by the men, permission from the first wife.
And the purpose why govt require permission from the first wife is to protect the first wife and her children.
Concept of Muslim family in Indonesia is “sakinah, mawadah, wa rahmah” which the wife must feel secure and happy in her married life. And the husband should not take another wife if it will make the first wife feel unhappy. That’s why permission from the first wife is required.
As a Muslim, how should one see the issue of multiple wives?
I think this is very clear from Revelation, and from the actions of the Prophet himself (PBUH), and of the people around him.
It seems to me that a Muslim should be concerned with pleasing Allah above all, and see this issue from the angles of justice, fairness, kindness and social harmony.
It seems to me that there is not a single one-size-fits-all sort of answer.
It seems to me that children must be protected above all. That their physical, emotional and psychological needs are the greatest, and that they are the most vulnerable to harm.
It seems to me that there must be a balancing of the rights and obligations of both men and women to help each spouse (and potential spouse) find the level of sexual satisfaction, affection and security (financial, emotional, physical and psychological) that they need, knowing that each individual has differing amounts of these needs, and that what may be acceptable for one may be intolerable for another.
It seems to me that society has its rights, too. That we need to balance the rights of individuals, families, communities, and society as a whole. We need to respect and understand that the social and legal rules we have in place result from a common societal project designed to help us live together in harmony.
When all of these factors are taken into account, each and every Muslim has to decide: is engaging in a shared-husband (or multiple-wife, from the man's perspective) arrangement going to bring more harm or more benefit to all concerned?
And after all these factors have been weighed, the Muslim needs to ask him or herself: is the nature of the law bringing about such a greater level of harm relative to good, that any social or legal rules that exist surrounding the issue of marriage could or should be a) circumvented b) broken quietly or c) actively opposed (using the gentlest and most socially harmonious means possible)?
(smile) That's my two cents.
May Allah Guide us to that which is most pleasing to Him.
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