Diverse Problems for Islam

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

maybe you're unfamiliar with the term "repentance"?
maybe "he came to preach the forgiveness of sins" has been forgotten.

Considered solely by itself as a merely human act, repentance is absolutely worthless with respect to atoning for sins. What you do after you have committed a crime is irrelevent to whether or not you are guilty of that crime.

Consider the following discourse between a judge and an arsenist:

Judge: Did you burn down the building?
Arsenist: Yes, but I felt really bad about it. In fact, I apologized afterwards and offered to make restitution, and resolved no longer to burn down buildings.
Judge: But, to be clear, you did burn down the building?
Arsenist: Yes.
Judge: So you admit that you are guilty of the crime in question?
Arsenist: No, no, I was guilty, but then I repented.

What do you suppose would happen next?

Know that God can change the dimensions of the heavens and the earth in order to forgive a person if He sees sincerity in the person's will to walk aright.

God is Justice Itself. He cannot be unjust or act unjustly. Justice implies giving to each exactly his due. Repentance doesn't change what you deserve for the crime from which you have repented. Yes, apologize. Make restitution. Resolve no longer to commit such crimes/sins. It would be worse for you, it would make you a worse human being, if you had not done these things. But it doesn't diminish your guilt, your just merit for retribution/punishment, even a little bit (since you should never have committed the crime/sin in the first place), and God. Is. Justice.

If you tell me that you believe otherwise because your prophet has said so, then I'll tell you that your prophet is mistaken and has spoken poorly about the Supremely Just Judge.

I don't need your prophet to know what justice is, what it implies or that God is Justice Itself. These things are evident to philosophical reason. If he disagrees with them even a little, then he disagrees with the plain truths of natural reason, and he speaks erroneously.

Here, of course, you should object: "But Traditio, you believe that, on Good Friday, Mercy triumphed over Justice." And I'll agree: "Yes, because Divine Mercy (i.e., the Word Incarnate) has paid the price of Justice." God's Mercy necessarily must be Just.

your reasoning that Christ died to bear your sins doesn't hold water anyway.
1. he didn't die
2. he told you to repent.
3. the book you claim to follow says that he told people who were weeping "worry about your own children".
4. those among the children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by Christ.
5. God confirmed in the Quran that the man was neither killed, nor crucified - the sabotage and excessive and haphazard plotting and planning of the criminals ended up undoing themselves and opening the door to a miraculous intervention. (not that God can't intervene anyway, just that He usually plays them at their game as He did with Pharaoh).

Let us suppose, for a moment, that you deny that Jesus died on the cross for our salvation. That doesn't change my previous arguments at all. Even if Jesus has not died for us, there is no forgiveness of sins apart from Him. Either He has died for us, or else, we are all doomed because of our sins against God. You deny the former? Then you must grant the latter. In the words of St. Augustine: "Either mercy or justice." Your prophet erroneously attempts to deny both horns of the dilemma, but such cannot be admitted.

What St. Paul says, in the following quotation, is no great religious revelation. It's something which should be patently obvious to anyone: "And if Christ be not risen again, your faith is vain, for you are yet in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17).

look mate, you are foolish to knowingly disrespect the final Messenger of God pbuh when he conveyed God's commands as instructed and did his best in the process.
secondly, either paul was a Roman shill or he was just a bit confused, or someone wrote a lot of wrong things about him.
i didn't tell him to eat pig, nor to tell people it's legal.
neither did i tell him to forbid circumcision, nor to claim that the law of God was void.
the test of the law at the time and the suspicious virgin birth was to show those lost sheep that they were erroneously putting letter over spirit and removing their hearts from God.

Many shall come unto me that day saying lord lord did we not prophesy in your name and cast out evil spirits?
and i shall say: i never knew you depart from me, i never knew you, you criminals.

format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio

Considered solely by itself as a merely human act, repentance is absolutely worthless with respect to atoning for sins. What you do after you have committed a crime is irrelevent to whether or not you are guilty of that crime.

No not if the person/state/God forgives you for the crime. Thats what forgiveness is - If you want a blood sacrifice then that's not forgiveness its the opposite.

From your post you don't understand what forgiveness is and Justice is.

I Steal money from you
You find me
Get Your money back

JUSTICE

I steal money from you
You find me
You Forgive me

FORGIVENESS.

As the verse in the Quran reminds us

24:22
"Let not those among you who are endued with grace and amplitude of means resolve by oath against helping their kinsmen, those in want, and those who have left their homes in Allah's cause: let them forgive and overlook, do you not wish that Allah should forgive you? For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

Amen to that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Zafran

No not if the person/state/God forgives you for the crime. Thats what forgiveness is - If you want a blood sacrifice then that's not forgiveness its the opposite.

It's forgiveness with respect to us. We weren't owed a savior. Once again, the words of St. Paul come to mind:

"But God commendeth his charity towards us; because when as yet we were sinners, according to the time, Christ died for us; much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life" (Romans 5:8-10).

That may or may not be sufficient explanation and defense with respect to your point on my part, but my reply may be rather "clipped." If I've been too concise, feel free to ask for further explanation.

From your post you don't understand what forgiveness is and Justice is.

I Steal money from you
You find me
Get Your money back

JUSTICE

That's not justice. You should never have stolen money from me in the first place. Not only am I owed my money back, but you are owed punishment for the crime that you have committed.

Once again, justice is the virtue according to which each is given according to his due (as Plato says), and this is effected by instantiating proportional equality (as Aristotle says).

I steal money from you
You find me
You Forgive me

FORGIVENESS.

This works in the case of the individual (and even there, there's a question of what's really "going on," so to speak). In the case of the State, it works less well. Should the judge in my previous dialogue "forgive" the arsenist, even if the owner of the building is willing to drop the charges? No. What is called for is the strict administration of justice. I don't care how sorry the arsenist is. I don't care if he's made retribution. I don't care if he's apologized. He needs to go to prison for a long time. That is what he deserves, if he does not deserve even more than that. He has violated the order of justice with respect to the political community, and he must pay for his crimes. Even after he's made his apology, felt remorseful and made restitution, the scales of justice still are tipped against him. He still deserves to be punished (and this is, let us note, still merely in the human order).

Furthermore, note that, in your examples, you've opposed justice and forgiveness, asserting that each requires something different. In the case of God, this scarcely can be admitted. Once again, do you not insist that "God is One"?

Necessarily, if God forgives, justice thereby will have been satisfied. Once again, the Muslim claim is that God forgives in spite of justice. I claim that God forgives by effecting justice. Do you see why I consider the Muslim claims on the matter scarcely credible?

[And note, here, incidentally, how obvious false the protestant doctrine of "inputed righteousness" is. The protestants claim that Jesus' blood somehow "covers over" our sinfulness, and God declares us righteousness in spite of the fact that we are sinners. The Catholics, on the contrary, believe that God, actually makes us righteous, vis-a-vis the grace of the Holy Ghost, which we believe is transformative, and for this reason, judges His completed handiwork righteous. In other words, the protestants claim that Christians are judged righteous in spite of the fact that they aren't. Catholics believe that God judges a saint righteous because God has made him righteous. The Protestant insists on mercy in spite of justice (and, may I add, makes of God a liar and a fraud). The Catholic insists that justice is effected even in the mercy of God.]

and i saw the woman (wh0re) drunk with the blood of the saints........(book of revelation).

yup, the idea of drinking blood seems to have got the transgressors intoxicated.
makes me think of vampires, vlad dracul and pyrophilia.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000

look mate, you are foolish to knowingly disrespect the final Messenger of God pbuh when he conveyed God's commands as instructed and did his best in the process.

You understand that I can't admit this, yes?

secondly, either paul was a Roman shill or he was just a bit confused, or someone wrote a lot of wrong things about him.
i didn't tell him to eat pig, nor to tell people it's legal.[/quote[

Are you familiar with Plautus, by chance?

pquote]neither did i tell him to forbid circumcision

St. Paul never said that circumcision is forbidden. He simply asserted that it's not necessary for salvation. But if you draw, I say, such an erroneous belief from your prophet, then, so say I, are multiplied the proofs that your prophet was no prophet. If he didn't understand the teachings of Christianity, and yet dared to speak of it, how could he have been a messenger of God?

nor to claim that the law of God was void.

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul ever claimed any such thing, nor do Catholics now believe such a thing. We correctly understand that the Mosaic Law may be divided into three sets of precepts: Moral, judicial and ceremonial. The ceremonial precepts have been fulfilled in the coming of Our Lord. The judicial precepts no longer apply, since the Jewish State is no longer "a thing," so to speak, for Christians. Just as the laws of Germany don't apply to Americans, the laws of the Jews don't apply to Christians. But the Moral Law, i.e., the law of right conduct, always applies, and we Christians do not repudiate it in the least. In fact, it is only through Jesus, through the sending of the Holy Ghost, that it is fully possible to live out even the moral precepts of the Law, for they are grounded in love: and the Holy Ghost is Charity Itself.

On the contrary, it is the Muslims who reject the laws of morality, you people, I say, who assert that it is ever OK to lie. You people, I say, who fail to understand the marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman, for even in the beginning, Our Lord tells us, "they became one flesh." You people, I say, who fail to understand that divorce...-Sigh.-

You Muslims, you act as though you desire to bring back the Law of Moses, and more besides. Yet you completely fail to understand what the Law of Moses was for, what it was that Moses was attempting to convey at God's command. And you ignore the fact that the Law testifies to Our Lord. You want to appeal to the Old Testament prophets? You want to appeal to Abraham? Then I will remind you of what the father of our faith said:

"And he took the wood for the holocaust, and laid it upon Isaac his son: and he himself carried in his hands fire and a sword. And as they two went on together, Isaac said to his father: My father. And he answered: What wilt thou, son? Behold, saith he, fire and wood: where is the victim for the holocaust? And Abraham said: God will provide himself a victim for an holocaust, my son. So they went on together" (Genesis 22:6-8).

Consider, Isaac, forced to the carry the very wood upon which he is to be sacrificed, but Abraham, in his faith, though he has been commanded to sacrifice His one, only begotten son, tells Isaac that God will provide the sacrifice. How can you not think of Our dear Lord Jesus Christ, carrying the wood of His own cross, the Only Begotten One, up the hill of Calvary, the One Sacrifice that God has provided for our sins?

You believe in Abraham? Abraham had faith, albeit implicity, in Jesus. You appeal to Moses? He wrote of Jesus, and testified to Him. The paschal sacrifice signifies Jesus.

You claim that the Old Testament or the New testifies to your prophet? Then you are mistaken. The Old Testament testifies to Jesus. The cerimonial precepts of the Old Law foreshadow the coming of Our Lord.

The Law has been fulfilled in Jesus, for the ceremonial precepts foreshadowed His sacrifice at Calvary.

would've been more harnonious had you refrained from ignorantly/purposefully trying to push the ramblings of an ex?-roman agent (who never knew and disbelieved in Jesus up until and after his ascension, then killed many believers before claiming to have seen a disputed vision) over the teachings of a messenger of God in the process of being utterly and unnecessarily disrespectful. Repent.

Biochemist David Dolphin speculated in a 1985 speech that erythropoietic porphyria cases may have been the basis for vampire legends, due to the sufferers' sensitivity to light and strange appearance.
He also suggested that people with porphyria may have craved and ingested blood in the belief that it would alleviate their symptoms and that they have an aversion to garlic......"*

After all, heme is what the body is ultimately craving for when an attack occurs.
When encountering the supernatural, consider the evidence because it usually provides an alternately plausible explanation. Have a safe All Hallow's Eve, and remember that those vampires may be nothing more than ordinary people experiencing distress.
Have a treat on me.

edit: the post you made in the meantime seems geared towards effecting an emotional response in order to bring one down to a level of bickering and side taking based on banalities.
like something out of the last temptation - mind you the encounter with Paul in that base movie was almost prophetic.

i would take the time to respond if i was obliged to or believed anything positive would come out of it.

Those who witness no falsehood, and, if they*pass*by futility, they*pass*by it with*honourable*(avoidance);.
Quran 25:72

You seem very intent on crime and punishment. Either on or off. Almost robotic and prone to system error. What you have failed to put into consideration are the complexities of life. We are a learning creature. By right, we should be trying to improve our spiritual self and in the process make mistakes, pushed to crimes but make amends from having learnt the hard way, so to speak. If I destroy property, I rebuild, replace, perhaps also in other ways that the the wrong could be at least evened out, and something which you have not considered (hence on/off statement earlier) that it may be put to experience and making a mistake. Don't repeat it. The second time may not be viewed so kindly.

Also to consider, we are Allah's creatures. It cannot be that he put us here with everything set for us to be doomed. That from the time we hitmaturity to death we are not allowed to make any mistakes, to grow and learn? No opportunity for seeking forgiveness and repentance? That there is no hope for us human to find within our own capacity through intentions and deeds a road to salvation? The world is rather bleak the way you've painted it.

format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill

You seem very intent on crime and punishment. Either on or off.

Yes. I don't think that you're fully grasping what a mortal sin is. A mortal sin is not a simple mistake. It is not simply human weakness. It is a deliberate act or failure to act in direct violation of the Law of God. It is a deliberate act or failure to act which greviously violates morality or divine law. A mortal sin is a crime against God. Either you have violated the law or you have kept the law. There is no in between.

For example: Either you deliberately and intentionally did commit adultery, or else, you were faithful (at least in intention) to your wife. There is no in between. To which you'll tell me (as, e.g., from Aristotle): "But I thought the woman was my wife. It was dark. It sounded just like her. She looked just like her. She had my wife's ID. I took reasonable steps to make sure that it was my wife, and I was mistaken through no fault of my own." And I'll answer: "Then you have not deliberately and intentionally violated fidelity to your wife. You intended to be faithful and made a simple mistake, which is not a sin/crime."

When we are talking about sin, there are two, and only two, options: Did you break the law of God (i.e., by intentionally/deliberately doing or not doing something contrary to the law) or not?

Which is, let us note, why I'm simply not impressed when the Muslims talk as though there is some kind of balancing act between good and evil deeds. No. A mortal sin is a crime against God. No number of good deeds, no kind of repentance (insofar as a merely human act), etc., can make you less guilty if you have committed a crime/sin against God.

Almost robotic and prone to system error. What you have failed to put into consideration are the complexities of life. We are a learning creature. By right, we should be trying to improve our spiritual self and in the process make mistakes, pushed to crimes but make amends from having learnt the hard way, so to speak. If I destroy property, I rebuild, replace, perhaps also in other ways that the the wrong could be at least evened out, and something which you have not considered (hence on/off statement earlier) that it may be put to experience and making a mistake. Don't repeat it. The second time may not be viewed so kindly.

If you deliberately and intentionally vandalize the property of someone else, in full knowledge that you ought not, it's not enough to rebuild, replace, apologize, etc. You have violated the order of peace and trust between citizens. You have violated the order of the political community. You have broken the law of the State and deserve retribution/punishment for your crime over and above any simple restitution which you might owe.

Also to consider, we are Allah's creatures. It cannot be that he put us here with everything set for us to be doomed. That from the time we hit maturity to death we are not allowed to make any mistakes, to grow and learn? No opportunity for seeking forgiveness and repentance? That there is no hope for us human to find within our own capacity through intentions and deeds a road to salvation? The world is rather bleak the way you've painted it.

The world as I've painted it is the only way that we can consider the world if Jesus hasn't died and risen from the dead, if there are no sacraments of the Church to incorporate us into the body of Christ, against Whom there is no judgment, if the the blood of Jesus has not been spilled, "blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us," if Jesus has not "taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross" (Colossians 2:14). A mortal sin is a crime against a God who is Justice Itself, Majesty Itself, Holiness Itself and Law Itself. It is a crime against a Supremely Holy, Just and Impartial Judge who cannot be deceived, and before the "eyes" of whom all crimes and all guilt openly are displayed, before whom we have no excuses. It is no wonder that the Pslamist sings to God as he does: "If thou, O Lord, wilt mark iniquities: Lord, who shall stand it" (Psalms 129:3 in the Douay Rheims/Vulgate; Psalms 130:3 in modern editions).

Thus does St. Peter write: "And if the just man shall scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear" (1 Peter 4:18).

There are two, and only two, options. Either God Himself has paid for us the price of justice, or else, we will have to pay it without end in Hell. Either Incarnate Divine Mercy, or else, Divine Justice. Either God Himself has become a man to be our Savior, or else, Justice Itself will condemn us for our sins. There is no third option. Either way, your faith in God's mercy, as described by your prophet, is in vain.

Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said:I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) saying, "I swear by Allah that I seek Allah's Pardon and turn to Him in repentance more than seventy times a day."[Al-Bukhari]

.وعن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه قال‏:‏ سمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يقول “والله إني لأستغفر الله وأتوب إليه في اليوم أكثر من سبعين مرة‏"‏ ‏(‏‏(‏رواه البخاري‏)‏‏)‏‏

.‏Sunnah.com reference*:*Book 20, Hadith 2Arabic/English book reference*:*Book 20, Hadith 1870Report Error*|*Share


Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) said:The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said, "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is! If you do not commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah will certainly forgive them."[Muslim].

وعنه رضي الله عنه قال‏:‏ قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏:‏ ‏*"‏والذي نفسي بيده لو لم تذنبوا، لذهب الله تعالى بكم، ولجاء بقوم يذنبون فيستغفرون الله تعالى فيغفر لهم‏"‏ ‏(‏‏(‏رواه مسلم‏)‏‏)

‏‏.‏Sunnah.com reference*:*Book 20, Hadith 3Arabic/English book reference*:*Book 20, Hadith 1871Report Error*|*Share

Allah says: “Say: O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Sûrah al-Zumar: 53]

This verse speaks about those who repent. It tells us that any sin, no matter how major, is expiated by sincere and proper repentance.*There are conditions for repentance to be sincere and proper. The first of these is that the penitent person desists from the sinful act. The second is that he feels deep and genuine regret for having committed the sin. The third is that he resolves in his heart never to return to the sin again. Finally, if the sin caused a transgression against the rights of another person, he needs to do his best to make amends.*

When Allah sees this sincere repentance from one of His servants – a servant who truly turns to his Lord in fear and hope – He not only forgives the sin, but replaces those sins for good deeds to the servant’s credit. This is from Allah’s infinite grace and munificence.*

Allah says: “Unless he repents, believes, and works righteous deeds, for Allah will change the evil of such persons into good, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful,” [Sûrah al-Furqân: 70]*

Allah says this right after mentioning the sins of polytheism, murder, and adultery. However, this blessing is only for one who have faith, whose repentance is sincere, and who strives to work righteous deeds.*Allah’s generosity is so far-reaching, that we are not only forgiven through our specific repentance for each sin that we commit, but we can attain forgiveness simply through our constant appeals Allah to forgive us.*Another way that we attain Allah’s forgiveness is through the performance of good deeds.

Allah says: “Establish worship at the two ends of the day and in some watches of the night. Lo! Good deeds annul evil deeds. This is reminder for the mindful.” [Sûrah Hûd: 114]*

Some scholars are of the view that his verse is only speaking about the forgiveness of minor sins, and that major sins need specific repentance. They cite the following verse in support of this interpretation:*

Allah says “If you shun the most heinous sins which you are forbidden, We will do away with your small sins and admit you to a gate of great honor.” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 31]*

They also cite a number of hadîth, including the hadîth related by `Uthman that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Any Muslim who offers the prescribed prayer, doing justice to its motions and to the humility that it requires, it will expiate for the sins that preceded it, as long as the person did not commit a major sin.” [Sahîh Muslim]*

However, Ibn Taymiyah and a number of other scholars consider the verse “Good deeds annul evil deeds” to be general in meaning. It applies to all sins, major and minor. Even if a person’s good deeds do not expiate for the sin directly, there can be no doubt that those good deeds weigh in the balance of deeds on the Day of Judgment in a person’s favor. Whoever has his good days outweigh his evil deeds on that Day will attain salvation.*

Allah says: “The balance that day will be true: those whose scale (of good) will be heavy will prosper, and as for those whose measure (of good deeds) is light, their souls will be in perdition, for that they wrongfully treated Our signs.” [Sûrah al-A`râf: 8-9]*

Ibn Mas`ûd said: “People will be take into account on the Day of Judgment. Whoever has a single sin to his account more than his good deeds will enter the Fire. Whoever has a single good deed to his account greater than his sinful deeds will enter Paradise.”*

Then Ibn Mas`ûd recited Allah’s words: “…those whose scale (of good) will be heavy, will prosper”.*Then he said: “Indeed, the balance will weigh an atom’s weight one way or another.”*

Allah also forgives us our sins through the difficulties that we face in life. When we are stricken with illness or suffer from circumstances, we will earn forgiveness if we bear them patiently seeking Allah’s reward.*Allah forgives our sins on account of the supplications that others make to Allah asking for our forgiveness, including our funeral prayers.

We earn forgiveness through the charity we gave in our lives that continue to provide benefit to others after our deaths. We earn forgiveness if we have pious children who beseech Allah on our behalf.*A Muslim’s sins are likewise forgiven through the punishment he may receive in the grave. Those sins are also forgiven by the intercession that the Prophet (peace be upon him) will make on that day, and then by the intercession those who are granted intercession. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “My intercession is for those who committed major sins from among my followers.”*

Above and beyond all of this is the mercy of the Most-Merciful Lord who pardons on that Day all sins as He pleases, as long as the person meets Him worshipping Him alone without ascribing to Him any partner.

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-299-3181.htm

Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 1579********Narrated by Shaddad ibn Aws and as-Sunabihi

Shaddad and as-Sunabihi told how, when they went to visit an invalid,
they said to him, "How are you this morning?"
He replied, "I am quite comfortable this morning."
Shaddad told him to rejoice that his evil deeds had been atoned for and his sins remitted,
for he had heard Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) declare that Allah who is Great and Glorious says,

"When I afflict a servant of mine who is a believer and he praises me for the affliction I have brought upon him, he will rise from that couch of his as sinless as he was the day his mother gave birth to him."

The Lord, Who is Blessed and Exalted, will say, "I fettered and afflicted my servant, so record for him what you were recording for him when he was well."

Ahmad transmitted it.

1And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city.

2And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed:

and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy;

Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.*

3And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This*manblasphemeth.*

4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?*
5For whether is easier, to say,*Thy*sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?*
6But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.*
7And he arose, and departed to his house.
8But when the multitudes saw*it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

9And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.
10And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.*
11And when the Pharisees saw*it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?*
12But when Jesus heard*that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.*
13But go ye and learn what*that*meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:
for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Matthew 9

Found in:*110 Ahadith Qudsi (Sacred Hadith)
Hadith no: 12

Narrated: Abu HurairaI heard Allah's Messenger (PBUH) saying:
There were two fraternal persons among the Children of Israel.
One of them was engrossed in committing sins while the other was devoted to worship.
The devotee used to see his fellow committing sin and advise him: Desist from doing so.
One day when he found his fellow committing sin. He said to him: Avoid it.
His fellow said: Leave me alone. Have you been sent out as a vigilant on me.
The devotee said: By Allah, He will neither forgive you nor admit you to Paradise.

When they died, they were gathered before the Lord of the worlds.
Allah asked the devotee: Were you assured of knowing Me or were you having power over what was in My Hands?
Then He said to the sinner: Go and enter Paradise by My Mercy; and ordered the angels about the devotee: Lead him to Hell.

(This Hadith is sound and reported by Abu Da'ud in his Sunan).

After narrating the Hadith, Abu Huraira commented:
By Him in Whose Hand my soul is: One word spoken by the devotee ruined his good deeds in the world as well as in the Hereafter. *

This Hadith signifies that no body should claim whether one would enter Paradise or step into Hell because the verdict here, is for Allah Who is All-Omnipotent over every thing, will decide whatever He likes.
A righteous person is required to do good and avoid evil for the sake of Allah only and advise others with the same.
He should not say such words as to challenge the authority of Allah.
Moreover, it is wrong to feel desperate from the Mercy of Allah.*


Isaiah 43:25*- I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

and since you like quoting paul - here's a little gift for ya:

Romans 3:23*- For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio

It's forgiveness with respect to us. We weren't owed a savior. Once again, the words of St. Paul come to mind:

You mean in respect to Paul - thats great but as you can see most of the Muslims here dont agree with the blood sacrifice as a form of forgiveness - Our idea of Justice and forgiveness are very different as well.

your basically wasting your time here as this argument has been re done a lot of time on this forum.

format_quote Originally Posted by Traditio

Necessarily, if God forgives, justice thereby will have been satisfied. Once again, the Muslim claim is that God forgives in spite of justice. I claim that God forgives by effecting justice. Do you see why I consider the Muslim claims on the matter scarcely credible?

Your not grasping the ideas of forgiveness or Justice. The state has forgiven many people throughout history - the lockerbie bomber is just one example.

It really doesn't matter how scarcely credible you think Muslim claims are - I don't think your credible at all especially when you don't know the difference between Justice and forgiveness. Is that really going to change anything?

Your wasting your time.

You have put 'justice' as the predominant point. You like the way it sounds then conjure up conjecture to your point and concluded that to have 'Justice' every action that is a sin must be met with justice. Hence there is no room for forgiveness.

So what you are saying is that because you are stuck on the justice aspect, then there can be no 'Forgiveness'. So to believe in what you claim then God in your eyes is ONLY about Justice. No, He Has many other characteristics and the Most important ones are ir-Rohman and ir-Roheem despite what you want to believe about God Is Justice. He is not just about Justice.

About mortal sin, there is still room for forgiveness despite the potential for being punished if we do not repent or our repentance is not accepted.

Also curious, then how do you consider 'non mortal' sins? Is that something still with your concept of justice where awaiting justice to be served and there is no room for forgiveness?

I still dont understand why you have such a fatalistic view of human and heaven. Heaven was created not for God but for us. . . if we pass the test of our life on Earth. So, the test must be passable. Why set the bar so high that no man can pass? Then if the test is so that everyone fails, where is the justice in that? No! You can pass! Pray that Allah recognises your efforts and grants you His mercy. It is not an easy one and becomes harder the closer we are to the hussle and bussle of the modern world where the temptation to stray is very great.

What is jarring to you with regards to your comment about what your muslim friends tell you regarding ramadan is very similar to what is said about the Sunday confession. Commit sins on the weekdays and have it washed off with the confessions... But you know, deep down inside, that it is not the purpose. The confession is an act of repentance and should be remorseful that the sin is not repeated and you go on to becone a better person. Likewise Ramadan. We should be already all that (as a result of the last ramadan that should have help inculcate these good traits in us) and merely step up the deeds and seek forgiveness in that holy month where we are challenged from our hunger, patience etc. so that we humble ourselves and seek Allah''s favours through our endeavour.