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What is your take on these claims?

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    What is your take on these claims? (OP)


    Hi all. Non-Muslim here. I have taken a keen interest in Islam and have considered converting, however, I'd like to lay down some common western objections to Islam and see if you could offer any insights as to their validity.


    First, I hear a lot that Islam is a "supremacist" ideology. This means that because Islam is God's will, and because it is superior to all other religion or ideology, it is then justified to subject non-Muslims to Islamic rule. I even heard of a sort of tax that non-Muslims must pay to Muslims.


    Second, I have heard that the Quran and the Prophet endorse slavery, and specifically, sex slavery.


    Third, there seems to be a significant amount of gender inequality and subjugation of women in Islam, particularly in countries such as Saudi Arabia. How close is this to true Islam?


    Fourth, critics often talk about a child bride married to Muhammad, and thus collude that adult men marrying female children is okay in Islam.


    Finally, critics accuse the Quran and Muslims of promoting a significant amount of hatred toward non-Muslims, as if non-Muslims are "less than"


    If I could have the actual words of real Muslims dispelling these claims, that would be awesome


    Have a nice day everyone.
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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

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    I'm not going to repeat my debunk as it is a waste of time here. I'd previously made a fifteen minute video packed with evidence to debunk such heinous claims against our prophet pbuh,

    ...but...

    ...You are free to marry six year olds

    Or offer me your six year old daughter in marriage.



    Good night,

    Scimi
    What is your take on these claims?

    15noje9 1 - What is your take on these claims?

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    Guys, regarding the marriage age of Aisha it is DEBATED amongst scholars.

    Also, at that time people were marrying REALLY young, because they were also dying at a very early age. If the consumable age in Europe was around 11-13 years old during the mid 1700s, why would it be strange to find a consumable age of a woman at 9 years old in Arabia when women menstruate quicker. The colder the climate, the later the age for the girl to get her period. Women reach menstrual ages in warmer climates. During those times the marriage age was that young age. As medicine gets better and people have a longer lifespan the marriage age CHANGES and it is also contingent on the LAWS of the LAND, hence it is contingent on context. It is not 9 years old now, because the conditions change and children are now children. There is literally no point in marrying a woman so young now, because life spans have completely changed and because the conditions have completely changed.

    Islam is supposed to make things easy remember and you are also supposed to obey the law of the land. So if the law of the land stipulates that marriage at a certain age is FORBIDDEN, then the person below that age is therefore not of a marriageable age. PERIOD.
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    What is your take on these claims?

    ต( ິᵒ̴̶̷̤ ﻌ ᵒ̴̶̷̤ )ິ ♬


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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    I am personally, currently going through the motions of upgrading to Islam. And yes, I have indeed bought the DVD already!
    First, I hear a lot that Islam is a "supremacist" ideology. This means that because Islam is God's will, and because it is superior to all other religion or ideology, it is then justified to subject non-Muslims to Islamic rule.
    All of this depends on your own outlook on life. I am quite a supremacist person myself. Therefore, it is normal that I would rather join a religion deemed superior, rather than joining the ranks of a second-rank creed. Seriously, what would be the point in congregating with a bunch of losers in such second-rank religion? The fact that Islam is considered even by non-Muslims to be the top number one creed, i.e. the superior way of seeing things, is obviously fantastically attractive to me.
    I even heard of a sort of tax that non-Muslims must pay to Muslims.
    Since it would be unthinkable that I would pay tax to someone else, the only way to implement a functioning taxation system, if one is needed, would obviously consists in letting others pay tax to me. So, I pretty much agree with this view, because it nicely correlates with my own personal take on things.
    Second, I have heard that the Quran and the Prophet endorse slavery, and specifically, sex slavery.
    Well, there are always serious difficulties in giving women back their freedom. If you tell her, "You are free to go now. I am giving you back your freedom." you will find that lots of women may disagree. Freeing a woman, is not that simple. If you run away, she may even run after you. Islam therefore suggests that you could keep such women around, but then the men may start complaining that all of this amounts to slavery. It is a non-trivial problem. There are too many situations in which people actually desire to be what other people could understand as being enslaved. I have tried to argue not even that long ago with my own wife that there would be so many benefits for her if only I manumitted her and gave her back her freedom, but unfortunately, she did not agree. So, she is still enslaving herself at the moment.
    Third, there seems to be a significant amount of gender inequality
    I also noticed that there is quite a bit of unfairness in the distribution of height and weight between men and women. I think that you must also have noticed that men are usually unfairly taller, and usually even weigh more. We have been working on this problem for a long time now, with unfortunately no ready-made solution in sight.
    subjugation of women in Islam, particularly in countries such as Saudi Arabia.
    The Saudi men are indeed known for their preference to lie on top. This obviously prevents the woman from getting away, if she so desires. In that sense, she may indeed feel subjugated. The Saudis are apparently, already working on this problem.
    Fourth, critics often talk about a child bride married to Muhammad, and thus collude that adult men marrying female children is okay in Islam.
    A 1576 law making it a felony to "unlawfully and carnally know and abuse any woman child under the age of 10 years" was generally interpreted as creating more severe punishments when girls were under 10 years old while retaining the lesser punishment for acts with 10- and 11-year-old girls. Jurist Sir Matthew Hale argued that the age of consent applied to 10- and 11-year-old girls, but most of England's North American colonies adopted the younger age. The French Napoleonic code provided the legal context in 1791 when it established an age of consent of 11 years.

    Let's say that the historical age of marriage was around 10 years in Europe before the end of the 19th century. Of course, in and of itself, it is no problem that people changed their opinion about marriageable age in the West. In the end, families decide about that kind of things for their own children. In other cultures, people did not change their minds about the age of marriage or the age of consent. This is obviously also their God-given right.

    The problem only occurs when particular utterly detestable western people suddenly decide that they want to stick their noses in the age of marriage of children in other people's families, and force their own views onto other people, not about their own children, but about these other people's children.

    But then again, in this field, the only opinions that matter are the ones for which you are willing to risk your life and die. Furthermore, I tend to believe that the subject will soon be moot, because now that it has become pretty much inevitable that the war in Syria will end up getting exported elsewhere too, approximately nobody will spend time or energy on that kind of subjects when the severed arms and legs are flying around in the air. Who will still care about a thing like that?
    Finally, critics accuse the Quran and Muslims of promoting a significant amount of hatred toward non-Muslims, as if non-Muslims are "less than"
    If I could have the actual words of real Muslims dispelling these claims, that would be awesome
    Since I am pretty much no longer such "non-Muslim", "less than" views and opinions absolutely suit me fine. Sometimes I understand the concerns of the pagans, when they get suicide-bombed or find themselves on the receiving end of a shoot-out, like recently in Orlando, but then again, since the shooters were obviously not targeting me -- I am not even gay, let alone a gay in Orlando -- I tend to move on to other items on the agenda quite fast. The pagans and their problems are never high up on my agenda, actually. In Allah we trust and in nothing else. Therefore, I enjoy quite good metaphysical protection against that kind of things. The pagans, however, apparently do not. I even saw it on television. They regularly seem to get butchered like sheep. They are really not doing well. They seem to have nonexistent metaphysical protection. But then again, that is also their own choice. I am quite confident that Allah would not mind too much to take them in too, but ok, if the pagans refuse, who cares? In that case, let them go it alone. You see, sometimes you can see already suicidal people getting angry at the pagans and turning the whole thing into a blood bath before dying themselves. Nobody besides Allah can do anything about that. No amount of whining can change that. Whining is just a waste of time. I do not even listen. Seriously, I don't care. The metaphysical characteristics of the situation are simply beyond me. That is why I am not sticking my nose into any of that. All I can do is to engage in signalling ("praying") to our Master, to make sure that I will make it alive out of it. I am obviously not going to waste my time praying for the pagans, if these pagans are clearly to lazy to pray for themselves. That is why you should never waste your time praying for the pagans. They are not going to make it anyway.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    'Women reach menstrual ages in warmer climates.'
    Do you have evidence/source for this claim?

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    'Women reach menstrual ages in warmer climates.'
    Do you have evidence/source for this claim?
    No this is bunk. Individuals reach menses depending on their hormone levels which control their growth and maturation. A Norse female may reach womanhood by the age of eight where an Egyptian female may take into her teens and some sub Saharan Negro females can be fully grown by the age of seven. It is all to do with genetics not environment, but famine can definitely slow things down. Generally, the bigger races (in size) mature faster.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    Marrying children regardless of religion is purely wrong. What kind of god would allow this and why?
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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    Marrying children regardless of religion is purely wrong.
    That is entirely predicated on the definition of "children". If we seek a modicum of universality in what we assert, we are supposed to look at the laws of nature, as we can see around us. The laws of nature indicate that it would be pointless to have sexual intercourse with a girl who does not yet menstruate and is therefore not capable of conceiving. Hence, the concept of "uselessness" of this behaviour. As soon as the girl starts having her periods, sexual intercourse could be fruitful and productive. From that point on, it is the prerogative of her family to decide how much longer they are going to wait with authorizing marriage.

    Picking random numbers, representing a minimum age of marriage, as the pagans do, is a silly and arbitrary method to address the issue. I recommend against it. The practice of using magic constants is generally rejected in any field worth mentioning:

    The term magic number or magic constant also refers to the programming practice of using numbers directly in source code. This has been referred to as breaking one of the oldest rules of programming, dating back to the COBOL, FORTRAN and PL/1 manuals of the 1960s. The use of unnamed magic numbers in code obscures the developers' intent in choosing that number, increases opportunities for subtle errors. A programmer reading the first example might wonder, What does the number 52 mean here? Why 52?

    Only the pagans agree to liberally use unexplained magic constants.
    That is a direct consequence of the well-known fact that the pagans are imbeciles.
    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    What kind of god would allow this and why?
    The pagans very much like the use of magic constants, if only because black magic is full of them too.
    All pagan views on this matter must be rejected as utterly dumb and possibly Satanic.
    Never believe the pagans. Never trust them. Never adopt any views of them.
    The pagans must be repudiated and rejected, because such is the will of the One God.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    Where did you get your information from for this claim? It doesn't seem scientifically valid.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Karl View Post
    No this is bunk. Individuals reach menses depending on their hormone levels which control their growth and maturation. A Norse female may reach womanhood by the age of eight where an Egyptian female may take into her teens and some sub Saharan Negro females can be fully grown by the age of seven. It is all to do with genetics not environment, but famine can definitely slow things down. Generally, the bigger races (in size) mature faster.
    Where did you get this information from? It doesn't seem scientifically valid.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft View Post
    That is entirely predicated on the definition of "children". If we seek a modicum of universality in what we assert, we are supposed to look at the laws of nature, as we can see around us. The laws of nature indicate that it would be pointless to have sexual intercourse with a girl who does not yet menstruate and is therefore not capable of conceiving. Hence, the concept of "uselessness" of this behaviour. As soon as the girl starts having her periods, sexual intercourse could be fruitful and productive. From that point on, it is the prerogative of her family to decide how much longer they are going to wait with authorizing marriage.
    The legal age of marriage in many countries is based on physical maturity. In most cases girls are not mature for pregnancy until 15+ years. Menstruation does not mean a girl is ready for delivering a baby. She can get pregnant, but the chance of complications and death in child birth are very high. Before modern medicine, a girl had a 50% chance of dying while giving birth if under age of 15.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    Where did you get your information from for this claim? It doesn't seem scientifically valid.
    Your remark is silly.

    My claim rejects the use of random numbers as a minimum marriage age, solely on the grounds that these numbers are arbitrary, and hence that they are backed by nothing at all.

    "Scientific" means that a statement was experimentally tested in order to look for counterexamples. How would it be possible to design experiments for this statement? There is no need for experiments to back a claim that rejects another claim. It is the other claim that would need experiments to back it.

    Furthermore, enforcing any such arbitrary minimum age, means that there are people who desire to use force, and hence willing to risk their lives and die for what they believe in. I am always happy when that kind of bluff gets called, and when that kind of people are effectively made to die for trying to impose their views onto others. In the end, it does not matter what you believe. What matters is what you are willing to risk your life and die for.

    Some people say that there are already too many bullets flying around. My point of view is that there absolutely not enough bullets flying around, because there are still too many people who need to learn the hard way that there is a hefty price tag attached to trying to impose your own arbitrary views onto others. Therefore, at this point, we absolutely need more killings and not fewer.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    The legal age of marriage in many countries is based on physical maturity. In most cases girls are not mature for pregnancy until 15+ years. Menstruation does not mean a girl is ready for delivering a baby. She can get pregnant, but the chance of complications and death in child birth are very high. Before modern medicine, a girl had a 50% chance of dying while giving birth if under age of 15.
    None of this has been tested experimentally.

    In order to do that, you would need to impregnate a few thousands of young girls and a few thousands of older girls, and then check if the difference in death rate is significant. The null hypothesis is that it is not. Technically there would be no problem to conduct this kind of experiments. The problem obviously lies elsewhere. Hence, nobody can claim that he would be able to back his views on this matter by testing experimentally, aka, "science".

    In other words, everything that you are claiming is sheer conjecture.

    You can try to convince governments to impose your views onto others, but then you are counting on another conjecture: There are people willing to risk their lives and die, not for what they necessarily believe in, but for what you believe in. Therefore, my point of view is that everybody should receive what they have asked for, and hence, to get the opportunity to die for what they believe that they should die for. The funny part of the story, is that these people usually get killed by people who are suicidal, and therefore also want to die. Isn't the One God great?

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft View Post
    Your remark is silly.


    It wasnt directed at you, I forgot to quote. You'll see I've written it again with the correct quote.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft View Post

    You can try to convince governments to impose your views onto others, but then you are counting on another conjecture: There are people willing to risk their lives and die, not for what they necessarily believe in, but for what you believe in. Therefore, my point of view is that everybody should receive what they have asked for, and hence, to get the opportunity to die for what they believe that they should die for. The funny part of the story, is that these people usually get killed by people who are suicidal, and therefore also want to die. Isn't the One God great?
    What are you on about? Your post makes no sense.

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    The legal age of marriage in many countries is based on physical maturity. In most cases girls are not mature for pregnancy until 15+ years. Menstruation does not mean a girl is ready for delivering a baby. She can get pregnant, but the chance of complications and death in child birth are very high. Before modern medicine, a girl had a 50% chance of dying while giving birth if under age of 15.
    What was legal age of marriage in many "the western countries" at the time of the Prophet - about 1400 years ago? Why we should compare conditions and cultures like they would to be same yet there is over 1000 year distance between them.

    The age of Aisha is one of the most typical matter which every of those people whose hate Islam and try to prove it´s only a negative thing, are using. You belong to those Islam-haters, don´t ya?
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    What is your take on these claims?

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by kritikvernunft View Post
    None of this has been tested experimentally.
    Medical research and collected historical data. Plenty of it on the net. Have a look. Here's some info for you.
    Search - ICRW 'Child marriage facts and figures'

    (I can't post a link yet, forum rules.)

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb View Post
    What was legal age of marriage in many "the western countries" at the time of the Prophet - about 1400 years ago? Why we should compare conditions and cultures like they would to be same yet there is over 1000 year distance between them.
    The marriage age was too young in most countries back then. What I have an issue with is this age being supposedly condoned by a god, regardless of what century, when clearly it's dangerous for the child and the baby.
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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    The marriage age was too young in most countries back then. What I have an issue with is this age being supposedly condoned by a god, regardless of what century, when clearly it's dangerous for the child and the baby.
    Do you now claim that the God had made some mistake when He allowed the Prophet to marry Aisha or do you possible mean that the Prophet had made something which we could call as a sin?

    And what baby you are talking with this matter? They hadn´t children together as far I know.
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    What is your take on these claims?

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    Medical research and collected historical data. Plenty of it on the net. Have a look. Here's some info for you.
    Search - ICRW 'Child marriage facts and figures'
    (I can't post a link yet, forum rules.)
    None of that constitutes science. Where are the test reports? I don't see any ...

    If you want to claim scientifically that A causes B, then you will have to create lots of cases for A, and then record that B really occurred, in such a way that other people can repeat your experiments in order to verify that they did not run into counterexamples.

    The report that you have mentioned, does not refer to one single source of experimental testing.
    Hence their claims must be considered non-scientific.
    All of it is just ideological conjecture.

    Everybody and their little sister can do that. How hard can it be?

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    Re: What is your take on these claims?

    format_quote Originally Posted by KIP View Post
    The marriage age was too young in most countries back then.
    On what grounds do you claim that?
    What experiments can we repeat in order to find counterexamples for your claim?

    You are just conjecturing nonsense out of your own butt.

    Your personal or ideological opinions do not constitute science or otherwise any valid academic claim.

    Hence, your opinions only apply to yourself and to your own offspring.
    Other people have other opinions and are not interested in yours.
    Get over it.


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