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  1. #1
    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...

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    Nabi (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “People have entered into Islam in large groups. Soon a time will come wherein they will leave the fold of Islam in large groups” (Musnad Ahmad, vol. 3 pg. 343. Refer: Majma’uz Zawaid, vol. 7 pg. 281)
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    IB Senior Member hisnameiszzz's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Oh dear, it's happening already.

    A lot of young people in my immediate area have left Islam and it's happening all over the UK, and no doubt all over the world also.
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    Account Disabled cooterhein's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    As far as I'm aware, that's happening in Africa (excluding some North African countries) more than anywhere else. Elsewhere, it varies a lot, and it varies across a wide range. There is no single trend across the board, there are a bunch of different trends that kind of fall on a spectrum. That spectrum is quite broad. Generally however, Muslims residing in historically non-Muslim countries are more likely to openly apostasize, and those exact figures are more readily available. In historically Muslim countries (with just a few exceptions) the trend appears to be for open apostasy to be much less likely, but many of these countries don't give us an opportunity to look at any statistics and it's anyone's guess what might be happening with secretive apostasy. That probably varies from place to place as well, to a certain extent.

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    Limited Member crank.head's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Turkey joined islam iran joined Islam in large groups look at it now.... Judge for urself.
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    IB Oldskool sister herb's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    ^^ Could you explain what you mean?
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    Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...

    From Occupied Palestine:

    We have suffered too much for too long. We will not accept apartheid masked as peace. We will settle for no less than our freedom.




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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Such ahadith are an stern warning for us, the Muslims by birth that Allah swt doesn't need us to exist his deen on the face of the earth. If we show indifference to Islam and take this deen for granted, Allah swt will raise other people who will embrace His deen wholeheartedly and they will spread the msg of Islam around the globe. Nobody has monopoly on Islam. Its gate is opened for all human beings. And this mankind is His creation. This hadith injuncts us to do introspection and self assessment of how we are following Islam.
    Last edited by azc; 01-02-2017 at 01:58 PM.

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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz View Post
    Oh dear, it's happening already. A lot of young people in my immediate area have left Islam and it's happening all over the UK, and no doubt all over the world also.
    May Allah swt forgive our sin and protect our iman. Ameen
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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by crank.head View Post
    Turkey joined islam iran joined Islam in large groups look at it now.... Judge for urself.
    history tells us of past and being proud of past has no value. What is our present, must be scaled
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    IB Senior Member talibilm's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Nabi (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “People have entered into Islam in large groups. Soon a time will come wherein they will leave the fold of Islam in large groups” (Musnad Ahmad, vol. 3 pg. 343. Refer: Majma’uz Zawaid, vol. 7 pg. 281)


    I am not sure this hadith refers after the immediate time after Prophet demise when some apostated (about 10,000) and took Musailama Kazzab as their Prophet ( a false Prophet who was killed in the battle of Yamama) as in this hadith

    Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 587

    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd."

    Note : hope we remember after 4 months deadline to leave vicinity of Kaaba (sura tauba ban on Kafirs nude haj ref http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...se-9-5-say-So&) some pagans conditionally accepted Islam http://legacy.quran.com/9/5 as they did not want to leave even after this deadline but opted to stay where ever they were and to pray and pay zakat without fail but after the demise of Prophet some among them refused to pay zakat on whom Calipha Abu Bakr :RA: declared fight an declared them as Apostates

    OR

    It refers to the Noble Quran verse which said something like If we Muslims do take our Religion seriously Allah will bring new nations who would embrace Islam and they will Love Allah and Allah will love them and they will not be like (impious) us (the Born Muslims)

    Wallahul aalam.
    Last edited by talibilm; 01-02-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm View Post
    I am not sure this hadith refers after the immediate time after Prophet demise when some apostated (about 10,000) and took Musailama Kazzab as their Prophet ( a false Prophet who was killed in the battle of Yamama) as in this hadithBukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 76 :: Hadith 587 Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned apostate as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd." Note : hope we remember after 4 months deadline to leave vicinity of Kaaba (sura tauba ban on Kafirs nude haj ref http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...se-9-5-say-So&) some pagans conditionally accepted Islam http://legacy.quran.com/9/5 as they did not want to leave even after this deadline but opted to stay where ever they were and to pray and pay zakat without fail but after the demise of Prophet some among them refused to pay zakat on whom Calipha Abu Bakr :RA: declared fight an declared them as Apostates OR It refers to the Noble Quran verse which said something like If we Muslims do take our Religion seriously Allah will bring new nations who would embrace Islam and they will Love Allah and Allah will love them and they will not be like (impious) us (the Born Muslims) Wallahul aalam.
    Followers of muzailma kazzab were mostly munafiqin; and some of the tribes refused to pay zakat because of being influenced by the conspiracy of munafiqin to harm Islam on large scale but sooner the Muslim tribes agreed to pay when senior sahaba ikram RA visited to convince them. The hukm of hadith where should be applied can't be ascertained as it's the job of scholars.

  13. #11
    IB Senior Member hisnameiszzz's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    On a personal note, I seem to be dipping in and out of Islam and Agnosticism (is that even a word or faith!) every other day.

    I've reached out to about a total of 10 Aalims (most are Imams) and only 1 replied and gave me a bit of advice. I'm having a really bad time of it all and the thoughts in my head seem to take over.

    Normally when I have been to bayaans in the past, they always say "keep in touch with Aalims to keep your faith sane". Well I know and my phone and email account know how many I have contacted. I can't really help it if they can't make time for me can I?

    I'm going to do my own thread at some point, so please forgive me if the OP thinks I am taking over. Apologies.

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    IB Senior Member talibilm's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz View Post
    On a personal note, I seem to be dipping in and out of Islam and Agnosticism (is that even a word or faith!) every other day.

    I've reached out to about a total of 10 Aalims (most are Imams) and only 1 replied and gave me a bit of advice. I'm having a really bad time of it all and the thoughts in my head seem to take over.

    Normally when I have been to bayaans in the past, they always say "keep in touch with Aalims to keep your faith sane". Well I know and my phone and email account know how many I have contacted. I can't really help it if they can't make time for me can I?

    I'm going to do my own thread at some point, so please forgive me if the OP thinks I am taking over. Apologies.


    Its waswas or doubts that almost many muslim goes through in some stage of their life and even some Sahabas too, so post your doubts inshallah you will get it cleared.
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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by hisnameiszzz View Post
    On a personal note, I seem to be dipping in and out of Islam and Agnosticism (is that even a word or faith!) every other day. I've reached out to about a total of 10 Aalims (most are Imams) and only 1 replied and gave me a bit of advice. I'm having a really bad time of it all and the thoughts in my head seem to take over.Normally when I have been to bayaans in the past, they always say "keep in touch with Aalims to keep your faith sane". Well I know and my phone and email account know how many I have contacted. I can't really help it if they can't make time for me can I? I'm going to do my own thread at some point, so please forgive me if the OP thinks I am taking over. Apologies.
    brother, shaytan will keep on infusing wasawas in heart till you exist in this world, so don't run after clarification of doubts. Bestway to defeat him is that seek the refuge of Allah swt from shaytan and ignore the wasawas. Take it easy!
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  16. #14
    Full Member Snel's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Nabi (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) said: “People have entered into Islam in large groups. Soon a time will come wherein they will leave the fold of Islam in large groups” (Musnad Ahmad, vol. 3 pg. 343. Refer: Majma’uz Zawaid, vol. 7 pg. 281)
    Not all hadith from Musnad Ahmad are sahih. In any case it is important to educate muslims about Islam and work to eradicate false beliefs such as the ones found in sufism. Because this is the background of many so called apostates. I'm saying "so called" because in several cases we see that these people never had the proper Islamic aqidah to begin with. Such as the people who left ahmadyia, they believed that Mirza Gulam Ahmad was a prophet after Muhammad which rendered them non-muslims anyway. Or can you say that a person who makes dua to the dead for blessings is a muslim, and therefore can leave Islam? Of course not.

    It's also worth noting that apostasy is not only saying: "I'm a christian" or "I'm an atheist" but it can also be something more subtle. It could be that a person makes fun of the hijab for example, this could definitely fall under "istihza bil din" and therefore render somebody to be an apostate. It's not as obvious as someone who wears a cross or prays at the church. So muslims might be surprised that these people one day publically declare their non-islam, because they didn't pay attention when these people left islam before they announced their apostacy.

    And if you ask them, they will surely say, "We were only conversing and playing." Say, "Is it Allah and His verses and His Messenger that you were mocking?". Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after your belief. If We pardon one faction of you - We will punish another faction because they were criminals. [Al-Tawbah 9:65-66]

    It could also be the result of neglect from the person's parents. So the person, as a child, never got the chance to learn about islam or live as a muslim. The neglect robbed him of that opportunity. You have to ask yourself in these cases, what's the difference between these people and a person who was raised by non-muslim parents?

    I think by first and foremost having a proper understanding of what makes a muslim and what negates someone's islam, and secondly making sure that muslims in general (our children especially) know their religion, we will be able to properly combat this problem. Combatting the problem may be in the form of:


    • Dawah to other muslims OR people who call themselves muslims but have a flawed aquidah.
    • Spending more time with the children.
    • Real combat, taking back occupied muslim land. Military advancments to protect muslim land, muslim children and Islamic education.
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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    This age is the age of fitan.
    Last edited by azc; 01-04-2017 at 01:06 PM.
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    Servant of Allah Scimitar's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by crank.head View Post
    Turkey joined islam iran joined Islam in large groups look at it now.... Judge for urself.
    Bingo

    Scimi
    Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...

    Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner. (Surah Al-A‘raf, 184)

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    IB Oldtimer azc's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    @Snel :
    Not all hadith from Musnad Ahmad are sahih
    and not all hadith are ghair sahih as well. Moreover, what you say is not confined musnad ahmad only
    In any case it is important to educate muslims about Islam
    agree
    and work to eradicate false beliefs such as the ones found in sufism
    but all sufis aren't wrong.
    Because this is the background of many so called apostates.
    you mean once they were Muslims but later on they left Islam..? Can you write their names and source from where you've got all this?
    I'm saying "so called" because in several cases we see that these people never had the proper Islamic aqidah to begin with
    you mean, since the embracing Islam they had no correct aqida
    can you say that a person who makes dua to the dead for blessings is a muslim, and therefore can leave Islam? Of course not
    but they are likely to be deviants
    It's also worth noting that apostasy is not only saying: "I'm a christian" or "I'm an atheist"
    No, probably, it's apostasy
    It could be that a person makes fun of the hijab for example, this could definitely fall under "istihza bil din"
    agree.
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    IB Senior Member talibilm's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    @Snel



    AFAIK a hadith is a hadith untill it has NOT been declared a Mowdhu ie fabricated, though a hadith could be classified as daif or weak based on the credibility of a certain person among the chain of narrators but that does not make it sure that its a fake or Mowdhu . Though its a not a Sahih or strong but we can see from Sahabas , some traveled for months just to hear a single hadith if someone trusted has it they did not think too much. As the value of anything are determined by Demand & supply for todays Muslims, easy n vast supply of 10,000's of hadith at our finger tips that had made them overlook the value of hadith. Even it it was a weak (due to the credibility of a Narrator's memory or truthfulness) we have to remember its known by every Muslim that adding a lie to a hadith will take him to hell so I think none among narrators could have taken that due risk of to fall into hell by adding a lie or told something from their opinion. A Hadith said even about Israliyat ( story narrated by Jews ) not to believe them or Not to reject themsince if you rejected it and if it was a truth that will come under a sin ( a big one ) but nowadays our people reject a daif hadith saying ah its just a daif as if it has no value but IMO our hadiths are better stronger than the available proofs of narrations of Israliyat.

    So except Moudhu I grade the hadith as a hadith and give its due respect . a parable to it is like a car is a car . The four top collectors Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Malik Muwatta could be compared to Benz, Bmw, Lexus, etc and the middle ones like Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Baihaki etc can be compared to Honda, Toyota etc and the lower ones like Hakim etc to Kia , Hyundai etc But Still a car is car and so a hadith is a Hadith. So we have to give due importance inshallah .

    But the main commandments like Haram , halal, fard, main masaaill are to based or concluded mainly on Sahih hadith and the fazaill can also be concluded from the daif hadith.

    I stand to corrected if my view goes against any Strong hadith or the Noble Quran.


    On other points of leaving Islam you are right as you had quoted the appropriate Noble Quran unless one does not mock Voluntarily. But in one's ignorance he is not an apostate such a person has to be advised with hikmah and be guided to the right path
    Last edited by talibilm; 01-12-2017 at 10:39 PM.
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    Limited Member Ibrahimz's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by azc View Post
    Such ahadith are an stern warning for us, the Muslims by birth that Allah swt doesn't need us to exist his deen on the face of the earth. If we show indifference to Islam and take this deen for granted, Allah swt will raise other people who will embrace His deen wholeheartedly and they will spread the msg of Islam around the globe. Nobody has monopoly on Islam. Its gate is opened for all human beings. And this mankind is His creation. This hadith injuncts us to do introspection and self assessment of how we are following Islam.
    Bismillahrahmanrahim, thank you for this. Allahimdilah, this sounds like the truth. And Allah (the most merciful, the most exalted) knows best.
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    Account Disabled cooterhein's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims will leave Islam in large groups...


    Quote Originally Posted by crank.head View Post
    Turkey joined islam iran joined Islam in large groups look at it now.... Judge for urself.
    I'd also like to know more details about how you judge that. I'm particularly interested in the specific connections between the large groups and the judgment that you reach.

 

 
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